00:00:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[7Basic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44264&oldid=44263 * 161.184.231.102 * (+189) Added compiler section.
00:00:45 <madbr> Just realized something
00:01:10 <madbr> Given a board with infinitely repeated sections, snakes & ladders is turing complete
00:01:20 <zzo38> OK, sho wthe proof
00:01:51 <madbr> ok imagine you have an infinite repeated grid
00:02:10 <madbr> except the first row and first column have different contents
00:02:37 <madbr> your x and y position in the grid are basically 2 counters
00:02:54 <zzo38> Isn't snakes&ladders one-dimensional though?
00:03:40 <madbr> each cell on the grid contains a repeat of the same snakes & ladders squares
00:03:59 <madbr> so it's one dimensional but it's repeated in a 2d infinite grid
00:04:38 <madbr> since the top row and left column have different contents, you can test if your x or y counter are zero by having a different path in those cells
00:05:06 <madbr> you can increment the x counter by having a path that goes rightways to the next repeated cell
00:05:29 <madbr> likewise, you can decrement x by going left, increment y by going down, or decrement y by going up
00:06:21 <madbr> also, you're in a current "state", one of N finite states
00:06:42 <madbr> that state is represented by the current path you're on in the current cell
00:07:33 <madbr> that means you have a 2 counter minsky machine -> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
00:08:00 <madbr> which is turing complete
00:08:30 <madbr> the 2 counter minsky machine works by taking the infinite tape, encoding it as 2 stacks
00:08:49 <madbr> encoding the stack as 2 infinitely large counters
00:10:33 <madbr> (using the last digit of the counter as top of the stack, doing counter *2 to push a zero, counter *2+1 to push a one, counter /2 to pop, checking for odd/even to read the top of the stack... the second counter is present for manipulation)
00:11:03 <madbr> which means you can get your infinite tape with only 4 counters
00:12:09 <madbr> then you can represent your 4 counters using 2 counters by representing your 4 counters as 2^c[0] * 3^c[1] * 5^c[2] * 7^c[3]
00:12:20 <madbr> and using the second counter for manipulation
00:13:20 <madbr> I made a version that's based on befunge but with only PC direction change commands but it's the same thing: http://esolangs.org/wiki/nopfunge
00:15:11 <madbr> it works for any 2d path as long as you can merge 2 paths and you have wire crossings
00:40:34 <FreeFull> My computer isn't turing complete
00:45:41 <boily> ... oooooooooooooooooooooo...
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01:04:06 <madbr> bound storage machines that would be turing complete given some means to access infinite storage?
01:04:15 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], if your language isn't tc then do the job properly and figure out what class it's in
01:04:26 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a bunch of sub-turing classes for exactly this reason
01:05:04 <hppavilion[1]> Since we can't build a computer with Infinite Memory, we can't build TMs
01:05:16 <Phantom_Hoover> if you mean the fact that actual computers have memory limits or whatever then i've always thought of that in terms of abstractions
01:05:18 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose a "Bounded State Automaton" is the proper term for that
01:06:00 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: True, true. A language might not be able to emulate a TRUE TM on a given computer, but it can still be TC
01:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> If we allow it to work such that it doesn't have an aribtrary memory limit AS PART OF the language
01:07:14 <Phantom_Hoover> if you could have a conformant implementation that's TC then the language is TC
01:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> If the spec says "Arrays can only be 1000000 items long", and it isn't under "Implementation notes" or the like, then it isn't TC (assuming we make all the other assumptions)
01:08:12 <hppavilion[1]> But I would propose we define "CETC" which describes something that /would/ be TC if it weren't for the fact that we're in the real world
01:10:00 <zzo38> I would prefer a different kind of definition, such as, the number of bits in stuff is implementation-defined but is otherwise TC
01:12:22 <boily> you should also have ABNQEUTC.
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01:14:48 <hppavilion[1]> Or, when multiple definitions for a word is given, does the Spec not define how to interpret it?
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01:23:07 <tswett> Both the rule b::=~0 and b::=~1 are possible to use, so which one is used is not specified.
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01:25:28 <Phantom_Hoover> you're guaranteed that a valid substitution will be performed but which one specifically is down to undefined behaviour
01:25:37 <tswett> Y'know, I think I don't like languages that are purely dynamically typed.
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01:25:55 <tswett> I want my static typechecking.
01:26:14 <tswett> If I don't know what sort of value a variable will hold, I'll say so.
01:27:51 <hppavilion[1]> We need to compoile a list of TC mathematical systems.
01:28:18 <tswett> What's a "mathematical system"?
01:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So you want Dynamic AND static typechecking? Basically, you should have a "dyn" type?
01:28:36 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I just needed a quick term for something I don't entirely understand
01:29:32 <tswett> Re static and dynamic typechecking: more or less. C# has static typechecking, but you can also cast anything to "object", and it performs dynamic typechecking when you try to cast it back.
01:30:17 <tswett> C# also *does* have a "dynamic" type; if you have a variable of type "dynamic", then you can attempt to call any method or access any property, and the existence of such a method or property will be checked at runtime.
01:31:28 <tswett> *nod* Mathematical models of computation.
01:31:28 <hppavilion[1]> Just a database so that people can find a system (or more) on which to base a new esolang
01:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> Is: "List of Turing-Complete Models of Computation" a good place to put that list?
01:33:37 <hppavilion[1]> (This is SOLELY for the TC stuff and generally things you'd WANT to make a language based on)
01:33:55 <tswett> Sounds good. Put in sentence case, though.
01:34:00 <tswett> "List of Turing-complete models of computation"
01:36:29 <tswett> So, in my imaginary programming language, you can define "varieties", which are essentially (finitely generated) categories with all finite limits.
01:37:29 <tswett> Individual varieties are categories. Varieties also form a category; homomorphisms between varieties are the objects.
01:37:59 <tswett> You can also define a variety called "Category", which is the variety whose algebras/models are categories.
01:38:41 <zzo38> tswett: Please make up the document so that we can see its working
01:39:30 <tswett> I'll probably do that at some point.
01:40:08 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: by the way, I'd say normal languages really don't resemble Turing machines much at all.
01:40:41 <tswett> I'd say that Turing machines are a somewhat bad model of computation, in that it's hard for a computer programmer to come up with a Turing machine that executes a given algorithm.
01:40:57 <tswett> Lambda calculus is much better in that respect.
01:41:17 <tswett> I think the reason we keep talking about Turing machines is mostly tradition.
01:41:48 <zzo38> Yes, probably it is
01:41:49 <MDude> What about a reverse turing machine where the tape is the code and the state macine is the data?
01:42:28 <MDude> I'm not sure if there's entirely a difference other than which one changes at run time.
01:42:33 <tswett> Now, you *should* be able to express the fact that since varieties are categories, and categories are models of the variety "Category", varieties are models of the variety "Category".
01:42:58 <tswett> So far, I haven't found a way to tie these three levels of categories together.
01:44:43 <tswett> I've been working at sort of a dizzyingly high level of abstraction.
01:45:18 <tswett> Consider an ordinary mathematical value, like, I dunno, the string "abc".
01:46:21 <tswett> This string is an element of some algebra—namely, the algebra of strings over a certain alphabet. This algebra is a model of some variety—namely, the variety of monoids. This variety is an object in an overarching category—namely, the category of varieties.
01:48:19 <tswett> Level 1 things are elements of the algebras. Level 2 things are the algebras which model the varieties. Level 3 things are the varieties that classify the algebras. There's only one level 4 thing I'm dealing with, which is the category of varieties, but I can foresee adding a finite number of additional level 4 things.
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01:49:28 <tswett> So I suppose what I want is a way to treat higher-level things as being lower-level things.
01:50:12 <tswett> The category of varieties (a level 4 thing) isn't explicitly mentioned in the language, but I should be able to treat it as being a variety (a level 3 thing).
01:50:29 <tswett> And I should be able to look at any variety (a level 3 thing) as if it were an algebra (a level 2 thing).
01:50:47 <tswett> And, finally, I should be able to look at any algebra (a level 2 thing) as if it were just an element of an algebra (a level 1 thing).
01:51:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44265 * Hppavilion1 * (+1429) Created page. I'm not very good at this.
01:52:08 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: good start.
01:53:34 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized "included for completeness" is a joke xD
01:53:47 <tswett> By the way, I think you want to say "combinator calculi" instead of "combinatorics".
01:55:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44266&oldid=44265 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a CN
01:58:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44267&oldid=44266 * Hppavilion1 * (-20) Fixed some stuff
01:58:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44268&oldid=44267 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed it. One last time.
01:59:59 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Perhaps Combinatory Logic is what I meant?
02:00:37 <tswett> More or less the same concept, I think. I don't totally understand the distinction between the terms.
02:00:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44269&oldid=44268 * Hppavilion1 * (+11) s/Combinatorics/Combinatory Logic/
02:01:20 <zzo38> I like these idea but you should need some document to tell it better.
02:01:33 <zzo38> (If you know what to write so far!)
02:01:55 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just linking to the Wikipedia pages for now xD
02:02:35 <zzo38> Many things are Turing-complete, including Wang tiles
02:04:14 <zzo38> Look in Wikipedia isn't it?
02:07:31 <tswett> It's definitely possible.
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02:08:38 <tswett> If you were to search my house, would you be able to find a toy zebra?
02:08:57 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That's exactly why I think it may be infeasible
02:09:00 <tswett> Sometimes, you don't know whether something is possible or not until you've done it.
02:09:15 <zzo38> tswett: I don't know. That depend on many things including whether or not you have a toy zebra in your house and where it is.
02:09:18 <tswett> Anyway, I imagine it's probably feasible.
02:09:45 <zzo38> (And if you tell me to get out and call the police for breaking and entering into your house)
02:11:09 <zzo38> I made up this Dungeons&Dragons prestige class: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/class/wizard_of_knowledge Do you have opinion/complaint of it?
02:34:25 <zzo38> I am not very good at this Minesweeper game I made up; my best time is 878
02:35:34 <zzo38> (The game is 30x16 with 95 bombs)
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03:12:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44270&oldid=44269 * Zzo38 * (-48) Using interwiki links
03:19:13 <oren_> man there are a lot of apl symbols
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04:21:58 <oren_> ⍀⍁⍂⍃⍄⍅⍆⍇⍈⍉⍊⍋⍌⍍⍎⍏⍐⍑⍒⍓⍔⍕⍖⍗⍘⍙⍚⍛⍜⍝⍞⍟
04:25:06 <Jafet> > (length "⍀⍁⍂⍃⍄⍅⍆⍇⍈⍉⍊⍋⍌⍍⍎⍏⍐⍑⍒⍓⍔⍕⍖⍗⍘⍙⍚⍛⍜⍝⍞⍟", length ['a'..'z'])
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05:09:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blackberry]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44271 * Virgolang * (+1141) Created page with "It Is a programming language that is stack-based, imperative and long-liner. And I wrote this article from my BB 8520. = Instructions = Instructions is base of Blackberry. == ..."
05:18:59 <Sgeo> Is that last bit supposed to be relevent?
05:19:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44272&oldid=44256 * Keymaker * (+1776) Fixed my MM translator and added it back.
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06:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> YOu probably read the Wiki Page before that was corrected
06:08:53 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: How is that? I don't see anything like that?
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06:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I read the wiki page. It didn't mention Turing Completeness.
06:09:41 <hppavilion[1]> Someone said they'd corrected it and that it wasn't TC
06:10:23 <zzo38> Ah, I can see on the talk page, but the article says you can translate any Turing machine into Wang tiles
06:11:40 <zzo38> Anyways, someone is asking for a proof that it is not possible to compute functions. Well, I have no proof or disproof of such a statement
06:13:29 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It says they tile the plane if and only if that TM does not halt.
06:15:03 <zzo38> I think that isn't what it says?
06:16:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure "translating any Turing Machine into Wang tiles" counts as being Turing Complete...
06:16:30 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> "If there is a curb, turn your steering wheel completely away from it if your vehicle faces up the hill,"
06:16:30 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I'm confused, if the wheel is pointed away from the curb and the car starts moving backwards, won't it move away from the curb?
06:16:30 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Or am I confused about steering wheels
06:17:58 <hppavilion[1]> Unless it means converting it into a /set/ of Wang Tiles for which the /solution/ can be converted /back/ into the TM's solution
06:18:20 <zzo38> I also am not quite sure by now, but it seem to me that it would be somehow, but I am not quite sure
06:18:24 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose TMs don't have a solution, especially not ones that don't halt
06:20:29 <zzo38> A Turing machine halts if and only if there exists a proof that it halts. (But you cannot necessarily prove that it does not halt.)
06:21:18 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I think that "if and only if" means you can
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07:41:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that is correct
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12:26:40 <oerjan> @ask hppavilion[1] um, you _do_ know about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Computational_models, right? i'm not saying there shouldn't be a main page but you don't need to link to wikipedia for most of these.
12:30:29 <myname> why are petri nets not on this list?
12:31:34 <oerjan> because no one wrote a page, i guess.
12:34:09 <oerjan> zzo38: i see you changed the wikipedia links to be interwiki. this is a perfect example of why i dislike those: these are links to wikipedia pages that could mostly have been to our own pages instead, but there's no visual difference in my browser so if i don't click them or look at the source i won't see that there is something to correct.
12:37:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: what? don't interwiki links have a different color than intrawiki ones?
12:39:13 <b_jonas> impomatic_: the next expansion set is coming out in a few days
12:39:51 <oerjan> b_jonas: if there's a difference it is ridiculously subtle.
12:40:26 <oerjan> far smaller than the difference between visited and unvisited links
12:41:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: these are _not_ ordinary external links, but special namespaces for wikipedia etc. that mediawiki allows by default
12:42:56 <oerjan> impomatic_: b_jonas is joking, however zemhill is now working again, so there was recently a little activity.
12:43:26 <oerjan> EgoBot also works, though.
12:44:21 <b_jonas> Yes, I'm joking about M:tG, sorry.
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12:46:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44273&oldid=44270 * Oerjan * (-2) Fix case and make links point to our own wiki, see also
12:48:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44274&oldid=44273 * Oerjan * (+4) missed one
13:00:41 <int-e> oerjan: just quoting randomly from that esolang wiki article
13:07:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
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14:02:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44275&oldid=40175 * B jonas * (+120)
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15:58:02 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] Who says you have to be able to be able to *use* a model of computation? You can just convert a program into Wang tiles and call it a day.
16:11:51 <FreeFull> I want my quantum computer already
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16:19:47 <oerjan> but that requires a time-traveling quantum computer
16:22:10 <oerjan> this might be slightly relevant and i might eventually get through enough of my tabs to read it myself http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464
16:22:47 <oerjan> now back to elliotts and extraterrestrials.
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16:50:36 <olsner> several called "X", I remember reading about a few more
16:51:52 <oerjan> isn't there a whole combinator bird book
16:51:54 <FreeFull> You don't even need I, SK is enough
16:52:28 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Mock_a_Mockingbird
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16:53:11 <oerjan> this has a list http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/combinator/birds.html
16:53:19 <olsner> I think I should read that book
16:53:52 <zzo38> Could you use CSS to change interwiki links to a different colours?
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16:55:24 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm pretty sure we asked elliott about that some time, and there was a problem...
16:55:27 <zzo38> oerjan: But the other reason I changed them is because one of them wasn't working anyways
16:56:00 <oerjan> zzo38: well now i changed most of them to point at our own wiki
16:56:13 <zzo38> Yes, that is better anyways
16:59:35 <zzo38> Interwiki links have the "extiw" CSS class, so you should be able to change the colours using that in your user CSS
17:00:42 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a non-tarbit based on Combinator Calculus
17:01:07 <zzo38> (You can format self links too)
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17:02:24 <oerjan> zzo38: as usual, i'd prefer it to work for everyone
17:02:25 <zzo38> .extiw { color: blue; }
17:02:53 <zzo38> You can set it in the global CSS then, and then users who do not want that can disable it in their user CSS.
17:06:06 <oerjan> fizzie: are you with us?
17:06:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm pretty sure i could set it too
17:06:31 <ais523> fizzie is currently in charge of the wiki (in terms of having the highest level of permissions)
17:06:44 <ais523> but several people here have pretty high permissions, such as me and oerjan
17:07:08 <oerjan> i've changed CSS before
17:07:42 <hppavilion[1]> It only talks about the SKI cominbators, which is wrong
17:08:14 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you can fix that yourself if you like, although probably in a separate section
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17:08:20 <hppavilion[1]> Or at least talk about other than just important combinators
17:08:33 <ais523> lambda calculus maps pretty well onto S, K, I, Y
17:08:49 <ais523> untyped lambda calculus doesn't need the Y, because you can implement it in terms of the others
17:09:04 <ais523> and I can be implemented as (SK)K, although that's mostly just coincidence
17:09:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44276&oldid=38949 * Hppavilion1 * (+17) Added a heading for when I update this later to talk about other important combinators
17:09:19 <ais523> I is like ~ from Underload, it isn't technically needed but it fits really neatly into the language
17:10:01 <fizzie> oerjan: ais523: We have interwiki links? What color are they now?
17:10:19 <oerjan> they are currently afaict identical to internal links
17:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> It'd use the S, B, C, and L combinators (see what I did there?)
17:10:30 <ais523> fizzie: we have one to Wikipedia, and I thought they were light blue
17:10:58 <oerjan> or well, they might be _slightly_ lighter blue
17:11:08 <shachaf> You can be implemented as SKK?
17:11:10 <ais523> same colour as external links, but without hte arrow
17:11:27 <zzo38> You can make them even more difference if you want to then
17:11:28 <oerjan> what i'd liked is to add the arrow.
17:11:41 <oerjan> or perhaps their own symbol
17:11:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44277&oldid=43900 * Ais523 * (+59) testing various links
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17:12:03 <ais523> here, spot the difference: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox
17:12:45 <fizzie> I'm sure you could also add a symbol with CSS.
17:13:14 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, I've visited the pages on intercal xD
17:13:26 <oerjan> i vaguely recall there was some problem doing that
17:14:02 <zzo38> At least in Mozilla it is possible to turn off visited links formatting globally
17:14:02 <fizzie> The external link icon seems to be added by a "background-image: url(data:...);" style.
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17:14:16 <zzo38> (Which I have done)
17:14:37 <oerjan> fizzie: more over there are heaps them for different formats
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17:14:52 <oerjan> fizzie: more over there are heaps them for different formats
17:15:17 <hppavilion[1]> I found a way to make Combinatory Logic languages a /little/ easier to read
17:15:39 <hppavilion[1]> Make the lexer detect combinators with this regex: /[A-Z][a-z]*/
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17:55:00 <tswett> Well, you have to figure out how you're representing numbers first.
17:55:05 <tswett> Church numerals are good.
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17:55:22 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you add with combinators the same way you add with any other Church numeral
17:55:46 * ais523 looks up the definition of addition in The Underlambda Project
17:55:58 <tswett> Let's see. Zero is KI, one is I, two is... eh, who cares about two.
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17:56:10 * hppavilion[1] thinks they're how you represent numbers in Lambda Caclucus
17:56:23 <tswett> All right, let's do lambda calculus numbers instead.
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17:56:32 <ais523> the formal definition is apparently a(:)~*(~a*^)*~*(~*)*
17:56:49 <tswett> Five: \f. \x. f (f (f (f (f x))))
17:57:06 <ais523> but there's a note that it can be optimized
17:57:20 <ais523> if you kow for a fact that you're dealing with integers
17:57:40 <ais523> tswett: you can convert \f.\x.f(f(x)) to combinators using the usual algorithm
17:57:45 <ais523> I jus forget what the usual algorithm is
17:58:10 <ais523> it's probably on the unlambda website (that is, the algorithm definitely is, the result of applying it to 2 might be)
17:58:44 <tswett> Let's see. Start with the first bit, you get \f. S (K f) f.
17:58:54 <tswett> Then do it again, and it's, uh.
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17:59:18 <tswett> S (S (K S) S) I, I think?
18:00:01 <ais523> the Unlambda website says 2 is ``s``s`kski
18:00:24 <ais523> and 3 is ``s``s`ksk``s``s`kski
18:00:34 <tswett> Let's see. S (S (K S) K) I f x = S (K S) K f (I f) x = K S f (K f) f x = S (K f) f x = K f x (f x) = f (f x)
18:01:18 <hppavilion[1]> Parenthesis are important in Combinatory Logic, correct?
18:01:34 <tswett> Or some other way of specifying precedence.
18:01:40 <hppavilion[1]> That makes making a Combinatory Logic language a /bit/ more difficult
18:01:47 <ais523> <unlambda> To decrement (and hence to substract) Church integers is by no means impossible. I don't know if it can be done with even moderate efficiency, however.
18:02:06 <ais523> The Underlambda Project subtracts integers via forming a lookup table of all possible subtractions, and then indexing it
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18:47:42 <zzo38> How do I tell Mozilla to request HTTPS resources from a proxy rather than tunneling the connection through the proxy?
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19:05:54 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, if you want efficiency, you'd use some sort of radixal numerical representation, like base 2 or a higher base for efficiency
19:06:17 <b_jonas> I have haskell code for binary integers at http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs
19:06:46 <b_jonas> obviously then you have to know how to translate algebraic structures to lambda calculus or directly to unlambda
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19:47:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44278&oldid=44206 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) Changed the procedure with arguments syntax (I DID say it was frozen, but I realized this makes lexers stateless and thus easier)
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20:16:29 <zzo38> How much do you know of the very old rules of Magic: the Gathering? I don't know much about it.
20:18:10 <zzo38> From before Alpha up to Fifth Edition
20:19:35 <shachaf> I guess they had things like interrupts until Fifth Edition.
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20:20:18 <zzo38> Yes, they had complicated timing rules I do not completely understand, although I saw a diagram, the diagram doesn't explain everything. There was also damage prevention steps.
20:21:43 <shachaf> I think they may not have understood the rules completely either.
20:22:04 <zzo38> You could only target spells (to counter it or whatever) *before* it was placed onto the stack, I think; once it reached the stack it was too late.
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20:22:07 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, they had so many great cards back then
20:22:48 <zzo38> There were a lot of interrupt steps inside of other interrupt steps, and I think even the damage prevention step is a normal step inside of an interrupt step, but with the restriction that only damage prevention effects can be played.
20:23:31 <zzo38> And you don't lose due to running out of life points until the end of a phase.
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20:26:10 <zzo38> Artifacts were disabled when tapped, I think also mana abilities were interrupts (although on lands this was implied, on other cards it must be specified)
20:28:18 <b_jonas> pre-sixth edition rules? no, luckily I don't know them.
20:29:19 <zzo38> I have also seen some cards from before Alpha, and can see how those work too (but I am not certain about any of this): The large mana symbol on lands existed before Alpha, activation costs implicitly included tapping (there was no "Mono Artifact"), activation costs were printed next to the casting cost, mana costs like "5GG" meant "five manas, at least two of which are green", Plains cards had pictures of airplanes on it
20:34:11 <zzo38> The old Magic: the Puzzling are using old rules, so it would help to know all of the old rules of various editions
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20:38:46 <zzo38> I have a idea though, a kind of Magic: the Puzzling where it has one solution that works only without manaburn and another solution that works only if manaburn is reinstated
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20:41:34 <zzo38> I want to see if any of you who can see my "Wizard of Knowledge" prestige class of Dungeons&Dragons game to see any suggestion to fixed or whatever
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21:25:01 <S1> }<}}}<}}<}}}<}}<}}<}}<}}}}<}}}<}}<}}
21:25:29 <zzo38> S1: Which is what?
21:25:46 <S1> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BitChanger
21:26:16 <S1> Ignoring the memory mapping of Gregor Richards and simply mapping every next eight bits to one ascii char, my program should be a valid greeting
21:28:03 <S1> (cause I'm not sure if that Gregor Richards mapping belongs to the specification or just is an extra idea)
21:28:17 <S1> (so I'm ignoring it for now)
21:29:50 <Gregor> "Specification" is pretty arbitrary with esolangs.
21:30:06 <Gregor> I forced that style of I/O on the world by being the only person who implemented the language.
21:30:07 <S1> you know what I mean
21:30:25 <S1> so I'll have to get used to that, oh well
21:30:37 <Gregor> Or make your own impl *shrugs*
21:30:43 <S1> yea yea some day
21:30:45 <Gregor> Or modify egobch to do whatever you'd like
21:45:51 <S1> do the laundry?
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22:56:18 <zzo38> How do you tell Mozilla to request HTTPS stuff from a proxy rather than making the connection through the proxy?
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23:01:30 <zzo38> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=358889 This is what I want it to do
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23:08:38 <boily> (let's check the logs. not sure it went through correctly.)
23:09:29 <HackEgo> U+F6A7 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef 9a a7 UTF-16BE: f6a7 Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+F6A7 \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
23:10:18 <boily> it was supposed to be U+1F6A7 CONSTRUCTION SIGN. somewhere the astral plane character was basicified.
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23:21:08 <shachaf> @ask ais523 whoa, what's rnz() all about?
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23:27:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44279&oldid=44261 * 74.122.187.254 * (+13) Ajsone
23:28:38 <oren_> shachaf: maybe it's a typoed nrz?
23:29:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ajsone]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44280 * 74.122.187.254 * (+686) Ajsone
23:33:31 <boily> No Raptor Zone? Natural Rhinoceros Zoo? fungot?
23:33:31 <fungot> boily: i find there is no
23:33:41 <boily> ah, so the no raptor zone it is.
23:43:18 <fizzie> It's a random variable with the best distribution.
23:43:49 <fizzie> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/File:Rnz100.svg
23:44:26 <fizzie> Many natural processes are well approximated by the rnz distribution. (Disclaimer: lie.)
23:45:18 <boily> it's used in a nasty perverse roguelike. it's a direct manifestation from the RNG. it's an EVIL distribution!
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23:58:23 <shachaf> I guess I should ask coppro.
23:58:33 <shachaf> coppro: What's with rnz()?
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