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00:08:48 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I think it has to be both computer-readable AND human (non-advanced-programmer) readable <-- my prejudices say this is a contradiction unless you want to _severely_ shrink the customer base.
00:09:24 <oerjan> although perhaps magic players are already all nerdy enough to reach that level
00:10:17 <zzo38> That is why I suggested something a bit different!
00:11:05 <boily> hezzo38ppaviliœrjan[1]!
00:11:15 <lambdabot> quintopia said 3h 59m 49s ago: aubergine+unconditional fork. (first argument=target of first process, second=target of second?)
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01:11:51 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I'd definitely call {1,2} + 3 unconventional notation.
01:12:08 <tswett> It's not the sort of thing you use if you want to be understood without having to explain yourself.
01:12:15 <tswett> 3 is a number, {3} is a set.
01:13:44 <tswett> I think I'd still consider that non-standard notation.
01:14:09 <tswett> If I'm reading a math paper, and it says "For all sets X and Y of integers, X + Y is ...", I'm going to be confused.
01:14:35 <tswett> I'd figure it *probably* means exactly what you've been using it to mean. But I'd be unsure.
01:31:17 <\oren\> {1, 3} + {4, 5} = {5, 7, 6, 8}
01:32:31 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Technically, yes. But I would order the set properly for OCD purposes.
01:37:46 <\oren\> then X + Y is simply the image set of the cartesian product of X and Y
01:38:37 <\oren\> (well, some would dispute the use of the word "simply" there, but YMMV)
01:39:00 <zzo38> I have thought of thing like Ajsone esolang but with RDF instead of JSON. (It has also been done with XML)
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02:38:41 <blurelIse> i get the impression im not gonna find the philosophers stone here
02:41:05 <zzo38> I don't think the "philosopher's stone" exists, so probably you will not find it on here.
02:42:24 <blurelIse> i get the impresion I won't be able to find someone here who can explain why putrification is such a neccessary part of transmutation
02:42:52 <zzo38> I don't know any alchemy, sorry. I doubt most people on here know much about it.
02:44:00 <HackEgo> blurelIse: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:44:29 <oerjan> blurelIse: i get the impression you may be right
02:44:59 <blurelIse> granted im still interested in coding an esoteric language
02:45:25 <zzo38> I also don't know any esolang called "philosophers stone"
02:45:57 <blurelIse> great, then maybe i'll make one :)
02:46:29 <blurelIse> sounds way more fun than coding an AI that moves crates
02:46:50 <shachaf> but do you know the Stoned Philosophers problem?
02:47:16 <blurelIse> hmm.. is that the one about the guy who knew the well water would drive everyone crazy?
02:49:14 <zzo38> I have not heard of "Stoned Philosophers" problem, so I don't know what it is
02:55:22 <blurelIse> shachaf: was that just a cheeky way of asking if i was blazed off my gord, or an actual problem?
03:03:02 <doesthiswork> the silverfish are peeking starting to wander around while wondering why I still have the lights on.
03:05:52 <tswett> When you're trying to get ketchup out of a plastic bottle, the typical way to do so is by squeezing the bottle.
03:06:23 <tswett> But I've heard that they make "pourable ketchup" bottles.
03:06:41 <tswett> I'm not sure what's different about them, but presumably with those bottles, it's possible to get the ketchup out unsqueezingly.
03:07:19 <blurelIse> i saw an article on a special new plastic that has a full flip surface
03:07:35 <blurelIse> not even glue sticks to the inside of the bottle, it jsut slides off and out
03:07:59 <tswett> Yeah, it's neat stuff.
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04:02:19 <\oren\> A nuclear reactor can transmute one element into another, but it usually is a lighter element thatn you started with
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04:11:29 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that it is very expensive to convert one lead atom into one gold atom, and it is not generally worth it.
04:12:17 <blurelIse> well sure if youre just pouring a bunch of money into equipment and tech to make it happen
04:12:44 <blurelIse> but the knowledge of natural law in doing the process with only tools at hand
04:12:50 <blurelIse> that knowledge is worth every minute
04:13:29 <zzo38> Yes, knowing how it can be done is worth it, I agree.
04:13:43 <zzo38> But it isn't generally worth it to actually do such thing especially for large quantities.
04:14:31 <blurelIse> yeah considering you'd probably have better luck panning in a river getting quantifiable amounts, isn't worth it for the gold
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04:16:31 <zzo38> Try to answer the question: Copper, Silver, Gold, and then what comes next? A few people are answer different (and my answer seems to be the uncommon one) although see what you would say too, and then we can make the poll?
04:17:33 <zzo38> Patashu: Do you have .NSF of Famitracker chiptunes? And, what expansion chip use (if any)? (As far as I know, Famitracker can use only up to one expansion chip per song, but I know that ppMCK is capable of using multiple at once)
04:18:04 <blurelIse> the obvious choice would be platinum
04:19:04 <zzo38> That is many people's answer, but my answer was roentgenium
04:19:27 <zzo38> (Note that the question gives no context as that is how it is supposed to work.)
04:20:06 <blurelIse> profane explanation would be that its ascending in value, or worth in reward
04:20:34 <blurelIse> i assume your answer is provisional to having a periodic table on hand
04:21:35 <Patashu> "<zzo38> Patashu: Do you have .NSF of Famitracker chiptunes?" Yes, lots. "And, what expansion chip use (if any)?" I personally use VRC6 and MMC5 and rarely N163, but I have ftms/nsfs from other people for everything else. "(As far as I know, Famitracker can use only up to one expansion chip per song, but I know that ppMCK is capable of using multiple at once)" Actually, you can use all six
04:21:36 <Patashu> expansion chips in a song in vanilla Famitracker, what you CAN'T do is create that file using only in-program means, you have to hex edit to set all the flags (or use a branch of Famitracker such as 0CC-Famitracker)
04:22:05 <Patashu> zzo38: As an example, I always provide nsfs of my songs I upload to soundcloud.com/patashu . If you need an nsf with a specific other expansion chip, let me know and I'll dig
04:22:44 <zzo38> I don't need ones with specific expansion chips (I can easily find or make them myself if I need them); I only wanted to know what you had
04:25:09 <zzo38> You can see the .NSFs I made too if you want to, although I use ppMCK. I have not provided renders.
04:28:00 <zzo38> We have a lot of Deadfish implementations, but none in TECO yet, nor in QUACKVM, or various other stuff
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04:35:43 <tswett> I'm trying to think how to prove that there exist at least two groups.
04:36:34 <blurelIse> old orange and apples metaphor not working?
04:36:54 <tswett> I dunno, I think I'm going to temporarily give up on this and go for something easier.
04:37:02 <tswett> Namely: proving that there exist at least two sets.
04:37:38 <zzo38> Can you prove it by exhibiting instances?
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04:39:49 <zzo38> I also do not see a implementation of Deadfish in LLVM
04:40:15 <tswett> Only if I can prove that the instances are different.
04:40:24 <tswett> I could, say, prove that {} is not {x}.
04:40:35 <zzo38> tswett: Well, yes, you must prove that of course.
04:40:58 <tswett> What I really mean, though, is that there exist at least two sets, up to bijection.
04:41:08 <tswett> So this means I must prove that there is no bijection between {} and {x}.
04:41:28 <\oren\> hmm platinum has a current market value slightly lower than gold
04:43:04 <zzo38> \oren\: O, I don't keep track of what are current market value of platinum and gold and so on. I just know that in Dungeons&Dragons game 3.5 edition, a platinum coin is worth ten times as much as a gold coin
04:43:34 <tswett> They're eleven times as heavy hth.
04:44:06 <tswett> I think it's kind of cute how in the United States, just like in D&D, there are "copper", "silver", and "gold" coins, each worth ten times as much as the last.
04:44:25 <tswett> (Namely, the penny, the dime, and the dollar.)
04:44:27 <\oren\> current platinum price per troy oz is 981 USD, gold is 1139 USD
04:44:42 <\oren\> dollar coins only exist in Canada not US hth
04:44:53 <zzo38> Yes, I have used such analogy to describe to some people, the penny, dime, and loonie (in Canadian money, that is!) in term of Dungeons&Dragons game
04:46:02 <tswett> \oren\: crap, that means the US Mint has been scamming us!
04:46:39 <tswett> And to think I once handed them twenty dollars in exchange for twenty of their so-called "dollar coins"!
04:46:52 <tswett> Man. I swear, heads will roll.
04:48:17 <tswett> And dimes aren't really made of dime. I mean, of silver.
04:48:20 <blurelIse> actually theres probably more nickel in us pennies than copper
04:48:34 <blurelIse> quraters havent been real silver int he US since 1971
04:49:16 <blurelIse> i used to buy precious metals professionally (fun fact)
04:49:51 <blurelIse> the platinum thing, i mentioned reward, as in after an album goes gold, it goes platinum
04:50:51 <blurelIse> another fun fact: napoleon gave all his dinner guests gold utensils, but his were not. Can you guess what his were made of?
04:51:32 <\oren\> tswett: Canadian dimes were made of silver until the 1920s
04:51:40 <zzo38> Were they aluminum?
04:52:21 <blurelIse> aluminum used to be far more valuable than gold, and rarer too
04:53:35 <blurelIse> if you sent that homeless guy you always see with his huge shopping cart full of cans back to napoleon times, he'd be a king
04:54:16 <\oren\> Well you can still get 1 oz silver, gold, and platinum coins
04:56:08 <\oren\> there is a Canadian silver 5-dollar coin which in 1 oz of 99.99% silver
04:59:53 <\oren\> wait what. they have a palladium coin too. wtf is palladium good for?
05:01:20 <blurelIse> craeting a monetary value out of an imaginary idea, then selling it to the establishments for 1.5 dollars per dollar to give to thier people
05:10:35 <zzo38> I think IRC has a good set of features, although some servers do not implement some, or add their own too
05:14:23 <blurelIse> automatic translation between languages
05:32:04 <blurelIse> aye, they said the same thing to the wright brothers
05:41:20 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: The Wright Brothers were trying to make a thing not fall as fast as normal. You're suggesting I take two incompatible ways of representing information and convert between them freely. Not just two, but thousands.
05:43:26 <tswett> Should you paint an albatross?
05:43:53 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I'm not a very good painter and have no interest in improving in that area
05:43:56 <tswett> Should I go to bed now?
05:44:00 <tswett> Should good night, everyone?
05:44:37 <blurelIse> i see all these language packs install with software, always wonder why they cant just cross reference all fo them using a deep search algorhithm and make auto tranlates happen
05:45:01 <blurelIse> kinda like that "translate this page" button in chrome
05:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: Because whatever you just talked about is unreliable
05:45:28 <blurelIse> why cant i just click "translate this" and get a semi close translation in irc
05:45:47 <blurelIse> it doesnt have to be totally accurate, just knowing an idea of what someone is saying helps if youre a human
05:45:51 <Sgeo> Someone could make a client that does
05:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> Also, "translate this page" requires a connection to google translate. This is fine in browsers, where you generally need internet to be viewing a page. But in an offline program... not so much
05:46:09 <hppavilion[1]> And using the google translate API, before you ask, costs money
05:47:03 <\oren\> it would be nice if someone wrote a simple word-for-word translation tool
05:47:03 <blurelIse> but itd be a nice feature in chats/social place
05:47:25 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: That's impossible. Your grasp of linguistics seems to be lacking.
05:47:45 <Sgeo> How do you translate Hebrew et?
05:47:46 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: a lookup table is impossibe
05:47:52 <Sgeo> I'm under the impression it's like an ;s
05:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: It would be, but then again, you're using this to communicate with someone who lives in practically another world.
05:48:03 <blurelIse> yeah, alot of languages have context and tone involved
05:48:15 <blurelIse> in chinese the same word for aunt is also donkey depending on the tone
05:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to make some high-level sexpr-based language for fun
05:48:51 <Sgeo> \oren\, how do you translate this word? http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/4933/meaning-of-et%D7%90%D7%AA-and-vet%D7%95%D6%B0%D7%90%D6%B5%D6%A5%D7%AA-in-genesis-11
05:49:21 <blurelIse> however, an inaacurate, semi simple word for word, based on "alphabetical order" language packs would be sufficient
05:49:57 <blurelIse> or just grab those english-spanish dictionaries
05:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: But word-for-word is impossible. And how would you translate German to English? In german, it's impossible to list all the words
05:50:21 <\oren\> All I'm saying is, the tool would read in そのビルは高い and wirte out [that][building][about][tall]
05:50:30 <blurelIse> im sure theres a german to english dictionary that would suffice
05:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: But that would be inelegant! In german, you can just /make up/ words!
05:51:04 <\oren\> literlly each word would be looked up and swapped for the closest word in target language tih no reordering
05:51:21 <blurelIse> all logistics aside, just wanted to stress it is realistic, would jsut require an immense effort
05:51:35 <hppavilion[1]> Also in german, you can /split words in fucking half/
05:51:55 <hppavilion[1]> How do you handle that without an uber-complex special case?
05:52:11 <Sgeo> \oren\, and do you ignore untranslatable words?
05:52:20 <Sgeo> Hebrew's et is just a grammatical marker or something
05:52:32 <Sgeo> So you can probably ignore it if you throw out grammar, I _think_
05:52:33 <blurelIse> if someone said to me in german that they liked long walks on teh beach, and a translator told me, long walks liked sausages to beach on, it would be far more useful than not understanding a single word
05:52:38 <\oren\> either ignore or leave them in place
05:54:05 <\oren\> for languages which have the same word order roughly, this would work very well in practical cases
05:55:18 <\oren\> E.g. Je ne t'aime pas -> I not you like
05:56:51 <\oren\> either way, an imperfect translation is better than having no translation available offline
05:57:38 <\oren\> I bet you could store a table of the top 10000 words in the top 10 languages in basically no space.
05:58:08 <\oren\> e.g. maybe the distrbiution would be 1 megabyte?
05:59:14 <zzo38> How can I implement phase of moon and astrological sun sign (which includes equinoxes and solstices) in TeX? I already have a lot of other stuff including Easter calculation, leap year calculation, Discordian calendar, etc, but not that yet!
06:00:11 <\oren\> maybe use kepler's laws plus a table of anomalies?
06:00:29 <\oren\> (since the orbit drift slightly over time)
06:01:24 <\oren\> you can have a set of orbital parameters for each decade or maybe century
06:03:19 <zzo38> Hopefully a precision of quarter-hours should be sufficient, if it is not necessary to print the exact times
06:08:09 <Jafet> Just port the J2000 database into TeX hth
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06:27:59 <zzo38> I don't know the way to do this ephemeris stuff in TeX (because I have not decide what seem best way), but I have done a lot of other stuff with TeX including parsing algebraic chess notation and Forsyth-Edwards notation and making chess diagram from them, and also a ASCII PBM parser, and POSTNET barcode generator. But, the other thing I do not have is TeX program to generate QR codes
06:29:22 <zzo38> Although maybe a postprocessor could be used to generate QR codes, possibly
06:33:40 <zzo38> OK, the AWK code of Deadfish is not quite the shortest one; the shortest code is actually APLBAONWSJAS.
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07:20:56 <fizzie> Google Translate's "instant" mode (where it OCRs text from the live camera feed, translates it, and replaces it in the original image) works offline, with a language pack taking (IIRC) just a single-digit amount of megabytes.
07:21:25 <fizzie> It's (mostly) word-for-word, although a lot smarter than a single dictionary.
07:22:32 <fizzie> (The Translate mobile app also lets you download packs for "proper" offline translation, but those are in the order of hundreds of megs.)
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15:16:38 <HackEgo> [U+2009 THIN SPACE] [U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE]
15:28:07 <HackEgo> sth/"sth" is short for "something that hibernates".
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15:31:01 <olsner> or, as opposed to happy to help, sad to help?
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15:46:52 <boily> hellolsner. nothing is wrong in the Wisdom.
15:47:41 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
15:48:38 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
15:48:54 <oerjan> the lie is that he publishes papers hth
15:49:22 <olsner> the past is a time, so that counts as sometime
15:49:47 <oerjan> ah but "publishes" is present tense, checkmate olsner
15:50:20 <olsner> *shrug* it was present tense at the time
15:51:12 <oerjan> well no one said wisdom isn't _sometimes_ factually accurate.
15:53:39 * boily loves the smell of Wisdom in the morning
15:54:17 <olsner> boily: wisdom is not a smell, and it is not morning
15:54:27 <oerjan> <blurelIse> another fun fact: napoleon gave all his dinner guests gold utensils, but his were not. Can you guess what his were made of? <-- this is eerily close to, but somehow disturbingly off from wikipedia's version
15:55:04 <int-e> olsner: fwiw, roses aren't a smell either, and people still talk about the smell of roses.
15:56:01 <b_jonas> ais523: you're still maintaining ayacc, you haven't disowned it, right?
15:56:10 <oerjan> b_jonas: no, i didn't react to that part
15:56:13 <olsner> a quick google suggests aluminum
15:56:16 <boily> olsner: there remains five minutes of morning.
15:56:41 <ais523> b_jonas: not disowned, just I'm not working on it right now
15:56:46 <ais523> I'll come back to it some time later
15:56:51 <oerjan> it's just that it wasn't _the_ napoleon, and he wasn't the _only_ one who got aluminium.
15:56:53 <ais523> if someone else wants to take over maintenance meanwhile, I wouldn't object
15:56:54 <b_jonas> olsner: hmm, was that back when aluminum was more expensive than gold, or later when it was manufanctured for cheap with electrolysis?
15:57:01 <olsner> boily: oh, you saved some morning for later? that's good planning
15:57:21 <oerjan> not that napoleon III wasn't a cool guy by himself.
15:58:00 <ais523> @tell shachaf you probably don't want to know more about rnz, but if you do, see https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Rnz
15:58:03 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, and no, I won't take over maintenance, but I might try it out some time
15:58:05 <int-e> oh, regarding "sometimes", http://starslip.chainsawsuit.com/starslip/night-shift-crisis/ seems relevant.
16:03:15 <oerjan> <tswett> Should you paint an albatross? <-- no. it'll just get annoyed and possibly attack you hth
16:03:43 <oerjan> and then you might accidentally kill it and get a curse.
16:05:49 <boily> albatrosses cause curses?
16:06:09 <oerjan> i thought that was common knowledge.
16:06:19 <oerjan> killing them, that is.
16:06:30 <b_jonas> I have a crazy idea. Suppose in a D&D-like universe, a very rich sorcerer wants to occasionally travel very fast between his two lairs, but hates teleportation. Maybe he wants to break the speed record for a challenge.
16:07:14 <oerjan> b_jonas: now i'm reminded of niven's puppeteers
16:07:34 <b_jonas> Could he build a long road made of alternating cells of four different materials, then shapechange cyclically to four different exotic monsters, each of which can reside in only one (or at most two) of the four materials, and get shunted to the next cell each time.
16:08:31 <b_jonas> I'm thinking the four materials could be: lava (or permanent magical fire), solid stone or earth, water (or water with acid), and a very narrow passage of air in a wall of force (or of iron or leveledgium);
16:09:06 <b_jonas> and the four forms are xorn (in stone), fire elemental (in lava), shark (in water, or acid-breathing shark in acid water), and eg. lizard (in the narrow passage).
16:09:29 <b_jonas> Each time he transforms, he'd get instantly shunted to the closest space the new form can reside, which would be the next cell.
16:09:47 <b_jonas> The narrow tunnel would need to be barred on the two ends by the same wall of force so that the lava and water can't get in of course.
16:10:08 <b_jonas> Or perhaps by small pieces of stone or something.
16:10:18 <oerjan> sounds eminently practical hth
16:10:50 <b_jonas> The shunting would deal lots of damage to the sorcerer, and though it could perhaps be reduced somewhat, it probably can't be prevented completely.
16:11:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, he'd have to be VERY rich to build such a road, because the cells have to be thicker than they are long, and the cells have to be long so he can traverse fast, because he travels about one cell per round or something not much than that.
16:11:39 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a known trick using turn order where you get a bunch of commoners to stand in a line, and delay their turns so that they all happen in sequence along the line
16:11:57 <ais523> then you get them to hand an object to each other in turn, and get it from one end to the other in just six seconds
16:12:14 <b_jonas> ais523: um, doesn't picking up the object take an action?
16:12:19 <b_jonas> they each take an action in sequence
16:12:23 <ais523> you can reduce the number of commoners required by getting them to jog (i.e. single-move) as one action, then hand the object over as the other
16:12:30 <ais523> that way you can space them 30 feet apart
16:12:48 <b_jonas> this is the D&D version of a bucket brigade
16:12:51 <ais523> I think the common name is the "commoner railgun"
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16:13:46 <b_jonas> gamemanj: this is repeatable each turn, so it could carry a lot of material on a line quickly
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16:14:03 <b_jonas> about one carrying capacity of the weakest commoner per round or so
16:14:27 <b_jonas> it doesn't even kill them, unlike how the damage kills the sorcerer
16:14:33 <ais523> also it gets an object from one place to another at arbitrarily high speeds
16:14:46 <ais523> because it completes the movement in six seconds regardless of the distance travelled
16:15:14 <b_jonas> Hmm, could the sorcerer get temporary invincibility, take all the damage, then quickly get healed to above zero from any amount of damage? If so, would this require very evil acts, like virgin sacrifices?
16:15:19 <gamemanj> what next, a commoner-based esoteric language?
16:15:31 <b_jonas> gamemanj: we call those cellular automata
16:15:46 <gamemanj> that would require more complex rules for the commoners...
16:16:04 <b_jonas> gamemanj: are you sure you're on the right channel if you ask questions like “what would be the point”?
16:16:55 <gamemanj> Cellular automata commoners... could get quite gory for some CAs (and patterns)
16:17:52 <ais523> b_jonas: if you're allowed to rely on typos in the manual, you can heal someone to 1hp from arbitrary HP values (including negative) via holding their head underwater for two rounds, then casting cure minor wounds on the third
16:17:58 <ais523> (assuming they don't hold their breath)
16:20:52 <ais523> the manual says "sets hp to 0" rather than "reduces hp to 0"
16:21:16 <b_jonas> and the water is conveniently in the channel, though he'd need some way to get healed up from unconsciousness afterwards, without a risk that his trusted lieutenant doesn't “forget” to heal him
16:22:25 <b_jonas> if he's temporarily indestructible to survive the damage anyway
16:22:38 <b_jonas> he can just wait as a human in water to get 0 hp, then quaff a potion
16:23:00 <b_jonas> though there's still the question of how he gets temporary invincibility
16:23:17 <b_jonas> and keep it while polymorphed
16:24:41 <ais523> I think you can combine a spell and feat to get immunity to HP death
16:24:44 <b_jonas> Plus the question of building the road.
16:24:46 <ais523> until the spell expires
16:24:56 <b_jonas> ais523: does that work even shapechanged?
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16:25:14 <b_jonas> even if it's the same person who casts both shapechange and that spell on himself?
16:26:04 <b_jonas> I'm worried because Szabó Magda: ''Tündér Lala'' features fairies that are specifically immortal, but are mortal if they magically shapechange to an ordinary animal such as a dog.
16:26:54 <b_jonas> Plus, even in nethack, many boss monsters lose most of their special properties while polymorphed.
16:27:48 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, is that a spell a wizard can cast? or divine-only?
16:28:21 <ais523> I can't remember the details
16:28:37 <ais523> one of my players pulled it off against me in a game where the players were encouraged to break the rules
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16:34:57 <b_jonas> I'm also worried about polymorph because such a thing could require you to be in the form of some particular unusual monster, such as a plant or something.
16:35:36 <b_jonas> Oh, and you probably want to get immune to dying from both nonpositive HP and from suffering too much damage in a turn.
16:36:16 <ais523> oh right, massive damage rule
16:36:25 <ais523> I think most groups pretend that one doesn't exist
16:36:28 <b_jonas> On the other hand, this whole thing is probably more difficult to pull off than a combo that just lets you increase your normal run or flight or swim speed without a cap.
16:36:49 <b_jonas> ais523: or that it exists only for damage from particular sources, such as critical hits from an attack.
16:37:02 <b_jonas> Or damage from the same one commander.
16:37:13 <ais523> b_jonas: that's a M:tG rule, not a D&D rule
16:38:28 <b_jonas> I said a D&D-like world. It could be a roguelike or something, though the narrow tunnel thing might not work in a roguelike that insists on every creature fitting the same size of square.
16:41:25 <APic> Reminds me of the Esolang „Befunge“
16:42:44 -!- Melvar` has joined.
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16:45:15 <boily> APic: have you ever heard of our Lord fungot?
16:45:40 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
16:45:47 <boily> (where's fungot when you need him?)
16:46:16 <int-e> he's swimming with the fnords
16:47:59 <APic> boily: Probably not yet
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16:51:13 <boily> APic: meanwhile, you're either Albanian, Bulgarian, Czech, Estonian, German, Icelandic, Macedonian, Romanian, Serbian, Slovak or Slovene.
16:51:20 <boily> probably German, population-wise.
16:53:08 <boily> is it generally sunny or rainy where you live?
17:03:07 <myname> boily: how do you come to this conclusion?
17:06:30 <boily> myname: quotation marks :D
17:07:04 <myname> i would never type them, though
17:08:11 <boily> «»“”‘’ are readily available on the layout I use, but I can't type the low marks.
17:09:04 <myname> i am using a software keyboard most of the time
17:09:27 <ais523> «»¢“”nµæßðđŋħĸł@łe¶ŧ←↓→øþ<>©‘’NºÆ§ÐªŊĦ&ŁΩŁE®Ŧ¥↑ıØÞ
17:09:37 <ais523> oh, /that/'s where ↑ went
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17:16:53 <ais523> boily: I assume you have a box of invisible characters that need sorting?
17:17:53 <\oren\> In the japanese ﾊﾝｶｸ mode,
17:18:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
17:22:04 <\oren\> I wonder what happens in the canadian keyboard mode
17:24:19 <boily> ais523: apparently I can type soft hyphens.
17:24:22 <\oren\> Ok that is weird. ? -> É, 'a -> à, |\ -> <>, [a -> â
17:24:36 <ais523> boily: what's the keybind?
17:24:55 <boily> \oren\: how come is it weird? it's the layout I use.
17:25:16 <boily> ais523: ISO level 5 + Shift + /.
17:25:21 <\oren\> It's weird because it doesn't match the keytop labels
17:25:38 <\oren\> I don't even know how it got installed
17:25:49 <ais523> boily: apparently I don't have the same keyboard layout as you
17:26:00 <ais523> either that or AltGr does something different from ISO level 5
17:26:10 <boily> AltGr is level 3 I think?
17:27:52 <boily> \oren\: there are two layouts in use in Québec: Canadien Français and Canadien Multilingue. both have éÉ instead of /?, but they differ mainly on the dead keys and pre-composed accented letters.
17:28:31 <\oren\> I have US and canadian multilunual
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17:29:02 <\oren\> And then I have 5 different Japanese modes
17:29:11 <b_jonas> boily: what? I type “„”‘’»« too
17:29:51 <b_jonas> I added them to my keyboard layout because I need them often
17:30:47 <b_jonas> I should also add à and the other non-obscure French accented characters too, probably to capslock-control-letters if my keyboard can handle capslock-control-shift-letter together.
17:30:51 <\oren\> In hankaku katakana mode､ I can type english by starting with a cpaital letter
17:31:14 <b_jonas> I know some keyboards can't handle capslock-shift-backtick but mine is better.
17:31:23 <boily> b_jonas: I remapped Caps to Escape. much more confortable for vim sessions.
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17:32:03 <\oren\> I have lots of symbols available thru my IME ,､，”“゛″〝＂〟
17:32:18 <myname> https://github.com/alevchuk/vim-clutch
17:32:21 <boily> \oren\: Let'sせえ。。。Nope.Itをrks、利ghtウンチLityペ亜S波C絵。NotQ浮いて失せ付ぇ、意F酔う湾Tmyおぴにおん。
17:33:07 <\oren\> You need to be in hankaku katakana mode I think.
17:33:14 <boily> \oren\: I like entering きごう, then mashing the space bar to get all kinds of funky Unicode tidbits.
17:34:01 <boily> myname: bwah ah ah!
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17:34:57 <b_jonas> plus there's some other characters I should add too
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17:37:02 <int-e> I forget why I have bindings for these
17:37:05 <\oren\> Ohhh characters that aren't in my fon!?!?!
17:37:22 <HackEgo> U+2983 LEFT WHITE CURLY BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 a6 83 UTF-16BE: 2983 Decimal: ⦃ \ ⦃ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+27E6 MATHEMATICAL LEFT WHITE SQUARE BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 9f a6 UTF-16BE: 27e6 Decimal: ⟦ \ ⟦ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
17:37:40 <HackEgo> U+2983 LEFT WHITE CURLY BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 a6 83 UTF-16BE: 2983 Decimal: ⦃ \ ⦃ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+2987 Z NOTATION LEFT IMAGE BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 a6 87 UTF-16BE: 2987 Decimal: ⦇ \ ⦇ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Charac
17:38:58 <\oren\> Eventually I plan to move my prject off fontstruct so I can add Chinese characters. (Fontstruct doesn't support Chinese)
17:38:58 <b_jonas> probably àèìòù to capslock-control-aeiou, âêîôû to capslock-control-áéíóú (that's easy to remember), plus äëïçœæßåø somewhere
17:39:22 <b_jonas> and the uppercase versions of all but eszett to capslock-control-shift same letter
17:40:08 <boily> b_jonas: shouldn't it be easier to put ^, ¨ and ` on a dead key?
17:40:11 <b_jonas> no, perhaps the circumfletted letters not on those places
17:40:24 <\oren\> there is a capital eszett
17:40:43 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, but it's not something I need frequently. there's also a low-single-9 quotation mark
17:40:56 * boily waves his magical mapole around and try to zombify b_jonas' keyboard
17:41:06 <b_jonas> and single > and < quotation marks
17:41:10 <b_jonas> yet I don't have those in my mapping
17:43:33 <\oren\> why not have a shift key you can hold down, type "o and get ö
17:44:07 <\oren\> in other words a key that merges all the characters you type until you release it
17:44:34 <b_jonas> \oren\: nope, that could trigger during normal typing,
17:44:42 <b_jonas> and also is hard to type because " requires holding down shift
17:44:56 <boily> ö is Shift + ¨, release, then o.
17:44:58 <\oren\> well then use some other key
17:45:18 <b_jonas> if I don't release a key before I press the next key, I want both of them to register. this isn't a calculator, it's a real computer keyboard where I want to type fast.
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17:45:35 <\oren\> like maybe that stupid menu button windows keyboards have?
17:45:39 <b_jonas> only the modifier keys should work otherwise
17:46:13 <b_jonas> \oren\: those could work, but I'm using caps-lock as a fourth modifier anyway, and I don't want to add a fifth, at least not for typing (as opposed to eg. window manager shortcuts)
17:46:49 <b_jonas> Plus I don't like those keys, because I like normal 101-key AT keyboards that don't have it, and want to be compatible with them.
17:50:41 <\oren\> what is that character for
17:51:30 <b_jonas> \oren\: I believe it's for annotating ancient Chinese text for study by ancient Japanese to show the word order it would be read if it had Japanese grammar.
17:52:33 <b_jonas> \oren\: let me find a reference
17:53:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furigana#Kunten
17:54:49 <b_jonas> or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun
17:55:49 <\oren\> holy crap. those unicode guys... I don't even...
17:56:16 <b_jonas> \oren\: that might be a different character though. they weren't circled, and somehow I don't think Japanese people would circle a kanji
17:56:28 <b_jonas> so it might be for some different thing
17:56:52 <b_jonas> \oren\: ㊤ _is_ a redirect to Kanbun in en.wikipedia though
17:57:32 <b_jonas> \oren\: see https://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%86%96
17:58:11 <b_jonas> \oren\: wiktionary documents a lot of obscure kanji
18:03:39 <\oren\> https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9B%B2%E3%81%BF%E6%96%87%E5%AD%97
18:07:02 <\oren\> Apparently circled letters are used for elements, and the kanji are used for bases and positions in baseball
18:08:57 <\oren\> 〇ｃis apparently "cupper"
18:09:06 <\oren\> I think they mean copper
18:10:28 <\oren\> and ㊥ is midfielder or whatever
18:11:47 <\oren\> hm oh wait they use SQUARES for the baseball stuff
18:12:01 <\oren\> which requires the astral plane
18:28:48 <\oren\> anyway, anybody know a good bitmap font editor?
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18:46:22 <\oren\> Ohhhh!!! If you convert a ttf to bdf with fontforge, then open the bdf, fontforge's glyph editor is suddently in a "bitmap mode"!
18:46:41 <\oren\> Ok well fuck fontstruct then
18:48:15 <\oren\> Now I can start adding wide characters and Chinese! hehehehehehe
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19:24:44 <\oren\> How many ideographs are there in the main CJK block?
19:26:09 <\oren\> 20,950. holy fucking shit that would take a long time
19:26:29 <\oren\> I'll start with just the Joyo kanji
19:26:54 <\oren\> and katakana and hiragana
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19:42:05 <Vorpal> \oren\, designing a font?
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19:47:14 <\oren\> Ok now this is a problem. I can convert ttf to a bdf, but I can't seem to convert back to a tff
19:48:35 <zzo38> Why do you want to convert it back to a TTF format?
19:50:13 <zzo38> See if you can install bitmap fonts on your computer though
19:50:36 <zzo38> Unless you need to print, they should be good enough for most purposes
19:51:26 <\oren\> windows only supports ttf
19:51:45 <zzo38> I think Windows supports bitmap fonts
19:51:58 <zzo38> (Although using a different format than UNIX)
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19:54:01 <\oren\> No matter what I do, fontforge's saved ttf file is "not a valid font file" according to windows
19:55:30 <zzo38> See if it has Windows bitmap font format. If not, you could also try OpenType if it has it; Windows supports that too, I think
19:55:54 <boily> windows switched to OTF quite a while ago for their standard fonts.
19:57:25 <\oren\> otf isn't working, the generated font shows all blank glyphs
19:58:04 <zzo38> Try Windows bitmap font format (I think it is .FON but I am not sure)
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20:04:39 <\oren\> Oh i see, fontforge doesn't have the ability to trace a bitmap into a vector font at all.
20:06:54 <zzo38> O so that is why it does not work. You must use an external program (unless it supports Windows bitmap font formats)
20:07:54 <S1> you must be blind thenü
20:07:55 <fizzie> \oren\: I think it had some integration to some external tool.
20:08:16 <fizzie> Also I made a .ttf out of a bitmap font somehow.
20:08:27 <S1> hppavilion[1]: First visit two years ago, last visit on friday ;) I am hkgit03 sometimes.
20:08:33 <hppavilion[1]> S1: It's possible we're in incompatible timezones uasually
20:09:19 <S1> hppavilion[1]: Don't you at least remember me as hkgit03? I was here quite often this week.
20:09:55 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Don't remember an hkgit03. Probably just time zone issues
20:10:06 <hppavilion[1]> You know what'd make it easier to learn Lambda Calculus and the SKI Combinator Calculus?
20:10:58 <S1> hppavilion[1]: No, you were here too, I know that.
20:11:04 <fizzie> Looks like I just wrote a piece of Perl to generate a .svg font out of the bitmaps, and then used some tool on that.
20:11:25 <hppavilion[1]> That way, you wouldn't have to dive into a complex, foriegn system immediately. You could just start with the basics.
20:11:40 <zzo38> Can you add my Robot find kitten implementation into the list?
20:12:16 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone want to help me figure out a Lambda Arithmetic?
20:12:53 <fizzie> zzo38: You'll need to contact rfk@robotfindskitten.org for that, I don't have anything to do with the website.
20:13:50 <fizzie> (I'm only responsible for the zem.fi/rfk86 site.)
20:16:31 <zzo38> I don't have email
20:17:53 <fizzie> Well, they allegedly have an office in Los Angeles, if that helps.
20:18:05 <fizzie> Other than that, I don't know of any ways to contact them.
20:18:12 <zzo38> I don't live in Los Angeles
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20:19:35 <hppavilion[1]> I just found out zzo38 doesn't have email and now every alarm in my head is simultaneously going off
20:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> λ-Arithmetic", which is basically supposed to make is easier to learn the λ-Calculus by starting with something everyone knows.
20:21:39 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, following the same path you took to learn normal math.
20:23:14 <myname> it's pretty easy, really
20:23:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I know, I just don't have the vocabulary and didn't think to look things up last time
20:23:53 <myname> there are like two relevant rules in untyped lambda cslculus
20:24:17 <myname> just do something with it
20:24:22 <hppavilion[1]> I might also invent Kleene Arithmetic, which is basically just simplified Regex
20:24:33 <myname> i.e. write a map function for lists in lambda calculus
20:24:51 <hppavilion[1]> The λ-calculus page on Esolangs needs some serious cleaning
20:25:48 <S1> The page on wikipedia is good iirc
20:28:04 <myname> cause that would mean n log n is 1
20:28:34 <hppavilion[1]> I think of log as a binary operation, not a set of functions that you reference with a subscript
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20:28:52 <hppavilion[1]> Though if I were to think of it that way, I'd prefer log[b](n), as that's more pythony
20:29:23 <hppavilion[1]> I just spent 5-10 minutes waiting for a lecture on λ-calculus to laod
20:29:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44284 * SuperJedi224 * (+3548) Created page with "'''Math++''' is an esoteric programming language by SuperJedi224, defined by [http://pastebin.com/mnxZk1cz this java implementation.] All '''Math++''' variables are 64-bit IE..."
20:30:33 -!- augur has joined.
20:31:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44285&oldid=44284 * SuperJedi224 * (+287)
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20:32:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44286&oldid=44285 * SuperJedi224 * (+64) /* Sample Programs */
20:32:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44287&oldid=44286 * SuperJedi224 * (+4) /* Sample Programs */
20:34:12 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], 5-10 minutes? From what service is that?
20:34:28 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Alaska Internet. And I think it was a big document
20:34:49 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], ah. I was about to ask if you were on ISS or something yeah
20:34:52 <Vorpal> I guess that explains it
20:34:53 <hppavilion[1]> (Alaska Internet isn't the name of the service, "Alaska" is just a descriptor of what kind of Internet it is)
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20:35:23 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], I'm on Swedish internet, so that just seemed plain wrong to me
20:35:28 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane.
20:35:42 <hppavilion[1]> (The service I'm using is GCI, which is the fastest available internet in the state (or at least in Anchorage). I used to have a 1mb/s connection, but we switched to the one other available service.)
20:36:06 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], so now you have how much instead?
20:36:15 <hppavilion[1]> (GCI is actually evil. They only deliver ~1/2 the speed they promise, but that speed is 8x better than the alternative)
20:36:19 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], I have 250 down, 10 up
20:36:37 <Vorpal> And I actually get pretty close to that
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20:36:53 <\oren\> GRR I can't find an option to just use the pixels' outlines instead of trying to smooth it
20:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just waiting for the day when Free High-speed WiFi is declared a basic human right
20:37:51 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], I get about 240 mbit/s down
20:37:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44288&oldid=43888 * SuperJedi224 * (+13)
20:38:01 <Vorpal> so that seems reasonable
20:38:32 <fizzie> The UK "fibre" (optical to some point, but generally VDSL for the last bit, at least in older places) nominal speeds are pretty weird, it's either 38/9.5 (down/up), or 76/19.
20:38:33 <Vorpal> the 10 mbit/s up and getting about 8 mbit/s up actually is a bit more annoying
20:38:40 <Vorpal> it takes forever to upload any large file
20:38:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes those are weird
20:39:05 <fizzie> I've occasionally wondered whether they actually configure it 40/10 and 80/20, and just use a bit lower figures to avoid the usual "nobody actually gets the nominal speed" issues.
20:39:06 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], well that is good at least
20:39:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44289&oldid=44287 * SuperJedi224 * (+52) /* Sample Programs */
20:39:44 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], shouldn't be that bad then
20:39:51 <fizzie> Still, the "standard" Finnish VDSL (download) speeds were 10, 50 and 100, so I'm not sure why they went with 40/80 here.
20:39:57 <hppavilion[1]> Really only GitHub and the lightweight uploading associated with fora usage and such
20:40:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44290&oldid=44289 * SuperJedi224 * (+5) /* Using the Map */
20:40:47 <zzo38> I used to have email with Free Geek but now they have disabled the ability to login with SSH so now I cannot access it anymore (I don't know if possibly my account is deleted too)
20:41:20 <fizzie> Oh, the 80/20 hypothesis seems to be true: the VDSL2 modem reports nominal payload rates of 79999/19999 kbps.
20:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> (I am, but only to the extent of browser extensions, firefox, and Duck Duck Go)
20:43:03 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Wait, don't you have your own website? Couldn't you set up an SMTP server on that?
20:43:46 <fizzie> If you're not interested in answers, you could send email even without that.
20:43:48 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], that is what I do, run SMTP + IMAP I mean
20:44:18 <Vorpal> Still have a gmail, but I'm fazing it out
20:44:39 <zzo38> I could run my own SMTP server and I have done that occasionally before, mainly in order to receive message only sometimes and then cancel the daemon after message is received, therefore no spam messages are possible
20:45:25 <zzo38> When I try to send message to other SMTP server they tell me that it is graylisted and won't sent
20:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Fair enough. You could, of course, use 10-minute-mail to get RFK over to the people you're getting it to
20:45:39 <Vorpal> zzo38, that was one way I guess. I create a new alias for each web site I register with, that way I can trace who I started getting spam via and just delete that alias
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20:45:53 <fizzie> You can get around graylisting by just retrying, without having to do anything special.
20:46:15 <zzo38> fizzie: I did read the instructions and that is what it says, so I did try that, but it did not seem to work.
20:46:16 <fizzie> Well, I mean, that's what graylisting is.
20:46:28 <int-e> it's not "getting around" anything, it's how greylisting is supposed to work
20:46:44 <Vorpal> how does gray listing work?
20:46:53 <Vorpal> And why would you be hit by it?
20:46:58 <fizzie> I just meant there's no reason to have a server do it, it should be quite doable manually.
20:47:14 <int-e> Vorpal: it just reports a temporary delivery failure to the submitting server; the server is supposed to try again later
20:47:17 <fizzie> Some sites graylist everything, so just not having sent them any mail before could be a sufficient reason.
20:47:42 <int-e> Vorpal: the idea is that most spammers don't actually run servers; they just dump their payload and move on.
20:47:46 <Vorpal> int-e, seems it would slow down mail delivery, which could be annoying
20:48:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: Only for the first message from an unknown sending server.
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20:48:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: (But it does introduce delays, that can be sometimes -- but rarely -- long.)
20:48:45 <S1> By VM you mean?
20:49:21 <zzo38> Even if I set up SMTP server and then disable some names when they are receive it, can still cause spam message to be received, they will still send it because the server is still reachable. You have to disable the SMTP server entirely to stop receiving spam messages
20:49:28 <S1> Call them interpreters
20:50:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm how does one set up for example postfix to do gray listing I wonder
20:50:12 <hppavilion[1]> S1: But it runs bytecode, so it's closer to a VM than a traditional interpreter (like the python interpreter)
20:50:34 <hppavilion[1]> It is, technically, an interpreter though. Then again, so is a computer.
20:50:38 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], um. Python runs byte code
20:50:50 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], what do you think the .pyc files are?
20:50:53 <S1> hppavilion[1]: Then you have to write a specification for bytecode first. Where is that?
20:50:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: postfwd + postgrey is I think a relatively common combination -- both are tools external to Postfix.
20:51:23 <hppavilion[1]> S1: https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/tree/master/docs
20:51:33 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], the only pure interpreter I can think of atm is probably bash. Perl also does byte code internally for example iirc
20:51:47 <Vorpal> Fairly certain ruby does too
20:51:53 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: WalScript (my own language) is a pure interpreter
20:52:12 <hppavilion[1]> There's actually more than one VM gathered into the same Repo. They all have different properties for different ideas
20:52:16 <S1> I don't get it
20:52:25 <S1> I won't dig through code now
20:52:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: (First one is for configuring rules more flexibly than standard Postfix allows, and the second one is a greylisting tool. I don't think there's any reason why postgrey alone wouldn't suffice.)
20:52:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, sounds annoying to configure though
20:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Here's the documentation for the instructions: https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/blob/master/docs/IndeterminantVM/setdocs.txt
20:53:25 <hppavilion[1]> Though it might be confusing if you don't read this first: https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/blob/master/docs/IndeterminantVM/fileformat.md
20:53:25 <S1> Looks like BANCStar
20:53:54 <hppavilion[1]> S1: It does, because BANCStar is practically a machine language
20:54:07 <S1> What does ISA mean in this context?
20:54:23 <hppavilion[1]> You aren't meant to write TaurusVM codes directly, you write assembly and the (to-be-developed) Assembler converts it to TaurusVM
20:54:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: A little, yes. They both hook up to the Postfix "policy server" mechanism, and I think postgrey's pretty good with working out-of-the-box (and included in Debian repositories). I ran it as a test, and it seemed to work, but I get so little mail at my own domain, it didn't seem worth it.
20:55:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think greylisting works better on a server that receives large volumes of email, anyway, because then you'll have the greylisting decisions for the majority of sending mail servers "normal people" use cached all the time.
20:55:50 <S1> I see. It's quite an easy spec.
20:57:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: The mail forwarding service I use does a DNS blacklist check and then graylists all mail that comes from blacklisted addresses; that seems like a pretty good combination to not avoid the greylisting delays, and still survive from blacklist mistakes.
20:57:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, mail forwarding? I thought you ran your own?
20:57:59 <S1> hppavilion[1]: So you're converting several esolangs into your bytecode and then have that one VM? Cause you said "semi-esoteric VMs" (plural)
20:58:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: I run my own for zem.fi, but that's not my "real" email address.
20:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Basically, I have more than one VM (each with its own name) that are all under the umbrella of TaurusVM.
20:59:04 <hppavilion[1]> A .taurus file (which is a TaurusVM executable) begins with a null-terminated ID string that tells the main executer which "sub-VM" the file uses
20:59:17 <S1> hppavilion[1]: So what are those other VMs doing? Translating esolangs into bytecode which then is interpreted by TaurusVM?
20:59:19 <hppavilion[1]> The main executer then passes the rest of the file to that executer
20:59:33 <S1> Oh, Sub-VM. What the heck
20:59:36 <hppavilion[1]> S1: I'm not translating Esolangs into Bytecode (well, I can)
20:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> "Sub-VM" is just a term because it's weird the way I did it
20:59:56 <hppavilion[1]> ThueVM, GreekVM, and IndeterminantVM are all different VMs
20:59:59 <S1> hppavilion[1]: What is that bytecode spec for then?
21:00:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "real" one is an for an email forwarding service from a Finnish "internet activists" organization, pointed at whatever ISP mailbox seems to be handy. Ridiculously enough, I've still got it pointed at our Finnish ISP's email servers, because the Internet connection there is part of the apartment maintenance fees now, and we still own the place in Finland.
21:00:57 <S1> hppavilion[1]: And what does get translated into that bytecode? You just said you're not translating esolangs. So what then?
21:01:06 <fizzie> Actually, I should probably check the generated-by-default mailbox at the UK ISP some day. I'm sure there's some random promotional mail from the ISP or something in there.
21:01:29 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]: Well, the thing that gets translated into Bytecode is an assembly language. Which is, truth be told, a bit of an esolang.
21:02:07 <S1> And what does all that have to do with esolangs?
21:02:11 <hppavilion[1]> An Esolang /can/ be translated into Assembly (or directly to a TVM VM), but that's not the main goal of this project
21:02:31 <S1> written in what?
21:03:04 <S1> The way you explain all this sure is esoteric, alright
21:04:05 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to compose in a separate document then send it here.
21:04:08 <S1> So you're translating an asm lang into bytecode which then is run by one of several sub-VMs...
21:04:14 <S1> That sounds terrific, thx
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21:07:15 <hppavilion[1]> TaurusVM is not actually a single VM (virtual machine). It is a collection of Semi-Esoteric virtual machines, each of which runs bytecode programs.
21:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> The main VM under TVM (TaurusVM) is called "IndeterminantVM", and uses variable-length arguments through a process that need not be explained here.
21:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> A TaurusVM executable (.taurus, specifically. .tau is different) is composed of an ID string (a null-terminated string explaining to the main executer which VM to use) followed by a flat binary.
21:07:41 <hppavilion[1]> S1: I can't tell if "That sounds terrific, thx" is sarcasm.
21:08:40 <S1> Not really, no. A composed separate document would be more lovely than some bad explanation
21:09:03 <S1> (though the last three lines of yours where more understandable than before)
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21:12:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea how hard/easy it would be to set up saned and cups for sharing a multi function printer from a RPi?
21:12:30 <FreeFull> bf\0++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:12:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, for some reason this seems like the kind of thing you would do
21:14:12 <S1> FreeFull: 8
21:14:43 <FreeFull> `bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:14:58 <S1> looks similar
21:15:20 <S1> Oh, I counted ten too few, I think
21:15:34 <S1> `bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:16:39 <zzo38> Is it possible to make the UNIX printer driver to just send the printout to a directory on the HTTP server in an encrypted format, and to be able to receive it with a DOS program and send it to the printer?
21:16:57 <S1> zzo38: Yes.
21:17:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, this seems like a silly thing to do, but knowing you you have a weird setup that requires this. And yes, probably
21:17:44 <Vorpal> print to PDF and then get it over smbfs, (by DOS I assume you actually mean Windows)
21:17:59 <zzo38> No, I mean DOS and not Windows. Also, I want PCL and not PDF
21:18:01 <Vorpal> then presumably print it again on Windows
21:18:18 <zzo38> (I can already generate PCL though)
21:18:25 <zzo38> (And the printer accepts PCL)
21:18:27 <S1> I'd really like to see zzo38's setup
21:18:57 <zzo38> How do you program it to do that so that the lp program will store the print jobs it receives by stdin into there and then treat it like normal print jobs otherwise except not send to printer?
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21:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> S1: There. The README is up-to-date and documents languages that will run on it.
21:23:52 <S1> hppavilion[1]: link again pls
21:24:22 <\oren\> Ugh. I still can't generate a ttf that windows thinks is valid
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21:27:57 <S1> I still don't get why several VMs are necessary but I guess questioning specs is pointless in the esolang community
21:29:16 <tswett> Are we typing English into Japanese IMEs?
21:29:43 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Multiple VMs are not necessary, but it's more fun to make more than one
21:29:50 <S1> more esoteric
21:30:11 <hppavilion[1]> And I can't put them all together into a single VM, as some have features that conflict with othres
21:30:13 <tswett> 湯p、ティspろづせs染pれtty院テレs珍gレスltsイfイs田rtウィthあぉゑr嘉瀬ぇってｒ。
21:30:22 <S1> hppavilion[1]: Which are those features?
21:30:38 <tswett> If I start with an uppercase letter, on the other hand, everything is fine.
21:30:45 <zzo38> I made up the VM too because I wanted to make some game program with a sufficiently simple VM that does not require any proprietary software, therefore I dod
21:30:54 <hppavilion[1]> S1: For example, all the registry manipulation in IndeterminantVM would collide with ThueVM's stringiness
21:31:26 <hppavilion[1]> He did. It was pretty good. I don't understand it.
21:31:34 <S1> How exactly is registry defined here?
21:31:37 <boily> tswett: stランゲly、手ぇれ背絵ms戸部亜ぉT御Fカタカナ追うT付Tby酔うRIME.
21:31:56 <tswett> I just typed "hagane" and it suggested that completion.
21:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Registries are 64-bit... things that store integers, floating point, characters, or whatever else you think up
21:32:20 <tswett> You do, of course, know what 鋼の錬金術師 means.
21:32:20 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: That implementation may not; it would be possible to make a different implementation for Windows though
21:32:33 <boily> tswett: not at all. google translating it.
21:32:57 <S1> hppavilion[1]: Program symbols in general, I presume
21:33:07 <tswett> NB: it gives you the English title instead of a literal translation of the Japanese title.
21:33:08 <zzo38> I made the feat for Dungeons&Dragons game it requires Open Minded, but taking this new feat and permanently losing a spell slot to earn more skill points. How many skill points would be the fair amount (in exchange for a feat and spell slot)? Currently I wrote 6 + slot level.
21:33:15 <hppavilion[1]> I just see a box with 4 zeroes. My font doesn't support it xD
21:33:18 <zzo38> (Open Minded gives you 5 skill points)
21:34:15 <S1> hppavilion[1]: What you call registries seem to be... containers for program symbols
21:34:25 <S1> hppavilion[1]: like variables, functions, constants
21:34:49 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a python programmer, so I don't understand low-level stuff very well xD
21:35:04 <zzo38> Then you should learn the low-level stuff too
21:35:39 <S1> Knowing about low-level stuff can save you from making things too complicated once in a while
21:38:00 <S1> Gotta go. I have a very important thing to finish until months end. See ya
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21:38:25 <zzo38> Do you know how to play a Dungeons&Dragons game?
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21:39:43 <hppavilion[1]> Should I add a function to dump the contents of TaurusVM to a file?
21:40:17 <zzo38> If you find it useful for debugging or to make save file then you might do so
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21:49:23 <hppavilion[1]> I could, in theory, make a DUMP and a RETRIEVE instruction, which dump the VM's content to a file and get it from the file, respectively
22:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'm writing example programs for Thube ("TOO-bee")
22:02:25 <\oren\> First of all, boily was right, ttf doesn't work well anymore
22:03:12 <\oren\> Second, I have to enlarge the font to 320 pixels tall, THEN vectorize it
22:03:20 <\oren\> that kkeps it pixelated
22:05:00 <\oren\> But this process is still much faster than the Flash-web-app -> fonforge to correct errors process
22:05:21 <boily> happy to kkep your font working!
22:05:32 -!- boily has quit (Quit: DECONSTRUCTOR CHICKEN).
22:06:08 <\oren\> So now I can add any alphabet in unicode to my font, rather than just those supported by a web app from 2006
22:06:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:08:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44291&oldid=44233 * Hppavilion1 * (+1298) Examples
22:09:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i forgot to tell you that there's already a language called "Thubi", with the exact same pronunciation.
22:09:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44292&oldid=44291 * Hppavilion1 * (+6) Fixed code (forgot some spaces)
22:11:36 <\oren\> "This is the article for the programming language Thubi. Not to be confused with the programming language Thubi."
22:13:00 <oerjan> \oren\: not same spelling hth
22:15:23 <oerjan> does Thube involve tubes twh and possibly give a bilingual pun
22:16:42 -!- mauris has joined.
22:17:35 <oerjan> (Thue is a norwegian surname with pretentious Th spelling; tube is a word in norwegian and english, although the meanings are slightly different but overlapping.)
22:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44293&oldid=44292 * Orenwatson * (+34) biguated it
22:18:35 <oerjan> the norwegian word means mostly a container, not the other english meanings. i guess it was borrowed.
22:19:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44294&oldid=44293 * Orenwatson * (+2) corrected it
22:19:14 <oerjan> given it was patented in the US
22:19:18 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:19:48 <tswett> Hmm. The spec for Thubi isn't very well written.
22:19:52 <\oren\> when you correct something incorrectly, you have rrected it
22:20:32 <\oren\> rrected comes from Latin rrectare, whence also rekt comes.
22:22:07 <\oren\> related by indo-european roots to the germanic English word "wreck"
22:22:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44295&oldid=44294 * Hppavilion1 * (+1375) Badly-done Syntax documentation (next step: Libraries)
22:24:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44296&oldid=44295 * Hppavilion1 * (+70) Example of subprograms
22:28:10 <\oren\> all I did was add a biguation
22:29:06 <tswett> If you had added it to the other page, it would have been a beguation.
22:29:12 <tswett> Such hypothetical begotry.
22:29:24 <oerjan> look what you've begotten
22:29:40 <tswett> Yes, I haven't forgotten.
22:29:47 <\oren\> I haven't begat anyone (uh, hopefully, anyway)
22:30:44 <oerjan> bigots beget bogus bogeymen
22:31:07 <tswett> Let's let bygones be bygones, and begone.
22:32:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44297&oldid=44296 * Hppavilion1 * (+616) Three libraries (stdio, fileio, socket)
22:34:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44298&oldid=44297 * Hppavilion1 * (+7) oerjan should probably read this.
22:36:36 <oerjan> except those biguation things should normally be at the top
22:37:54 <oerjan> i'll do it and get the formatting right
22:38:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44299&oldid=44298 * Oerjan * (+5) fmt, placement
22:41:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44300 * Hppavilion1 * (+50) Created Template
22:41:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44301&oldid=44299 * Hppavilion1 * (-18) Made biguation template
22:42:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44302&oldid=44300 * Hppavilion1 * (+5) Fixed template
22:42:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44303&oldid=44302 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Still fixing it
22:43:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44304&oldid=44303 * Hppavilion1 * (-4) Removed possibly extraneous spaces
22:44:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[StackStacks]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44305&oldid=41842 * Oerjan * (+5) fmt, placement
22:44:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I made your thing at the top into a template
22:45:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Derivative]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44306 * Hppavilion1 * (+50) Created Template
22:46:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Derivative]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44307&oldid=44306 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) Corrected bold to italics
22:46:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44308&oldid=44301 * Hppavilion1 * (+20) Derivative template
22:47:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Derivative]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44309&oldid=44307 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Fixed the link
22:48:01 <oerjan> you forgot periods hth
22:48:53 <oerjan> i'm not sure about that Derivative template.
22:49:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Redcode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44310&oldid=39363 * 68.255.6.120 * (+1925)
22:51:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is it possible to make a template content conditional on whether a certain argument is passed to it?
22:52:26 <hppavilion[1]> So I could make it so if an argument 2 is given to the Derivative template, it says "This language is a derivative of [[{{{1}}}]] that {{{2}}}." and if it doesn't, it just says "This language is a derivative of [[{{{1}}}]]"?
22:52:30 <oerjan> probably, but i don't know that much templates
22:52:38 <zzo38> I think MediaWiki supports such thing
22:52:49 <oerjan> ais523: you probably know
22:53:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Redcode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44311&oldid=44310 * 68.255.6.120 * (+1)
22:53:42 <ais523> oerjan: let me read scrollback
22:53:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the normal way to do that is with #if but it isn't implemented
22:53:55 <ais523> there is an eso way too
22:54:00 <\oren\> Ooh, i'mma add Canadian Sylabic
22:54:01 * oerjan seems to be built upside down today: nose runs, feet smell
22:54:21 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: look at the history of template:qif on Wikipedia (although note that you can't use that code directly because copyright)
22:55:28 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: basically, the upshot is a) it's possible, b) it's not /supposed/ to be possible without the ParserFunctions extension, but c) MediaWiki has a higher computational class than most people realies
22:55:48 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll just leave the Derivative Template as-is
22:56:07 <ais523> oh, we have ParserFunctions installed
22:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think it really needs to explain what it does. That's what the immediately following paragraph is for xD
22:56:17 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: use #if:, then
22:56:29 <ais523> {{#if:|a|b}} is equivalent to b, {{#if:anything|a|b}} is equivalent to a
22:56:36 <ais523> that should be enough information to make the template you want
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22:57:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Derivative]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44312&oldid=44309 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Added a period
22:58:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44313&oldid=44304 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Added a period
23:03:37 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized that as far as I've been told, I have never encountered a girl on this channel
23:07:50 <oerjan> it has happened. i think there are at least two here now.
23:08:57 <oerjan> there might be more who choose not to publicize it.
23:09:29 <oerjan> they are still most likely a small fraction here.
23:09:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Sinatra]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44314 * Hppavilion1 * (+118) Marked account as dead
23:11:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Virgolang]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44315 * Hppavilion1 * (+207) To IRC!
23:12:15 <mauris> ehhhhh the "there are no girls on the internet" mantra is pretty gross and 4channy
23:13:26 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: All men on the internet are men. All women on the internet are men. All little girls on the internet are FBI agents. Male ones.
23:13:29 <mauris> i never really did "figure it out" as they say, like there is very blatant evidence to the contrary, no matter how narrow you take "the internet"
23:14:22 <oerjan> yay i've managed to completely miss the existence of 8chan
23:14:35 <pikhq> The main thing is, a lot of these spaces are rather uncomfortable for women (could go into it but suffice it to say: things conspire to make them feel unwelcome) so not many are here and those who are, don't like advertizing it much.
23:14:49 <pikhq> I don't think that's an issue *here in particular*, but it happens on IRC, sadly.
23:15:06 <mauris> i hear they took 4chan's awful mindset and made it even more terrible & sexist & racist, congratulations 8chan
23:16:16 <tswett> I think I'd say "there are no girls on the Internet" generally isn't a good thing to say.
23:16:46 <oerjan> mauris: yo that "yoneda lemma" method for proving types equivalent was pretty neat
23:17:07 <\oren\> There are a lot of girls on Facebook
23:17:16 <tswett> Like, it's probably not a huge deal.
23:17:17 <pikhq> I believe the amount of use is approx. equal, but some communities on the Internet are exceptionally gendered.
23:17:30 <oerjan> although i have a vague feeling that it may be a bit under the carpet to actually _prove_ it...
23:18:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44316&oldid=44290 * SuperJedi224 * (+114)
23:19:33 <oerjan> maybe i should shut up until i've actually seen the proof (in haskell context)
23:21:08 <mauris> for the record, if it's the thing i asked on SO, it was limited to "proving a type is isomorphic to () if you Yoneda it around a billion times"
23:21:57 <mauris> to show that there's only one value in it. but it probably extends to other type equivalences
23:23:16 <oerjan> mauris: well it's also pretty easy to use it to show e.g. forall a. a -> a -> a ~ Bool, i think
23:25:27 <oerjan> first, that's equivalent to forall a. (Bool -> a) -> a
23:27:04 <oerjan> hm in fact, you get forall a. a -> a -> f a ~ f Bool
23:31:58 <zzo38> Do you know answer of my question relating to the Dungeons&Dragons game?
23:32:23 <oerjan> i think the part of the lemma i feel awkward about is showing that the map from f b to forall a. (b -> a) -> f a is onto.
23:33:16 <oerjan> it seems like it would require a deeper result about the parametricity of f
23:34:23 <zzo38> Extra Slot is another feat though
23:37:30 <zzo38> I know a few things about Yoneda lemma, not a lot
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