←2015-09-20 2015-09-21 2015-09-22→ ↑2015 ↑all
00:05:01 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
00:12:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'm back
00:34:02 <hppavilion[1]> Major change #1 in Zodiac Lisp: AFAICT, the function call cannot be another SExp. In LIZP (or whatever I call it), this will be possible:
00:34:40 <hppavilion[1]> ((if (= op 'sub') - +) 1 2 3 4 5)
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00:40:55 <hppavilion[1]> I still like the idea of adjectives for OO...
00:41:24 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps an adjective called "fat" in a language that makes you deal with memory?
00:42:40 <hppavilion[1]> person = class(){__init__ = function(object self, short age){short self.age = age}}
00:42:48 <izabera> i'm unconfortable with - taking more than two arguments
00:43:14 <hppavilion[1]> But if you create "person" with the "fat" descriptor, then the "short"s become "long"s
00:43:23 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Subtraction is just adding the inverse
00:43:45 <hppavilion[1]> Think of (- 1 2 3 4 5) as (+ 1 -2 -3 -4 -5)
00:43:52 <izabera> well yes but
00:44:03 <hppavilion[1]> You know what makes ME uncomfortable?
00:44:09 <hppavilion[1]> Multiple-argument /bit shifts/
00:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> (<< 16 2) is OK
00:44:29 <hppavilion[1]> But (<< 16 2 3)!? WTF!?
00:44:45 <izabera> what does that mean?
00:45:10 <hppavilion[1]> << is the bitwise left shift, at least in python
00:45:22 <hppavilion[1]> I'm pretty sure in most languages that support it
00:46:29 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Or do you not know what bitshift is? xD
00:47:31 <izabera> so (<< 16 2 3) is like (16 << 2) << 3 in c?
00:47:53 <hppavilion[1]> I guess it must be
00:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, that's the only interpretation I can think of
00:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> Either that or 16 << (2 << 3)
00:48:28 <hppavilion[1]> But probably the first one
00:53:31 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I'm trying to make The λ-Calculus easier to understand by inventing λ-Arithmetic, for people to start with. It's part of the ZWG's "Elementary School CS" project. Do you have any ideas?
00:53:45 <izabera> what is zwg?
00:54:06 <hppavilion[1]> Zodiac Working Group
00:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> It's a group I started attempting to make the products of a tendency towards Esolangs useful and more widespread
00:55:16 <izabera> that would make them less eso-, wouldn't it?
00:55:29 <hppavilion[1]> For example, actual, useful programming languages that are nothing like what normal programming languages are
00:55:40 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Yes, but such is the cost of bettering humanity through the esoteric
00:56:14 <hppavilion[1]> (The first attempt at the aforementioned type of language was Stare, for which the jury is still out on whether it's a useful thing)
00:56:45 <hppavilion[1]> (The goal is to create more Perls and Haskells for the world)
00:58:05 <hppavilion[1]> So do you have any suggestions for λ-Arithmetic?
00:58:43 <izabera> i'm not good at inventing things
00:58:55 <hppavilion[1]> Do you understand the λ-Calculus?
00:58:58 <hppavilion[1]> Because I barely do
00:59:15 <izabera> ok that doesn't sound like a great starting point for inventing a new branch of it
01:00:00 <hppavilion[1]> I know
01:00:01 <hppavilion[1]> xD
01:00:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'm learning about it though
01:00:58 <izabera> why did you say "more Perls and Haskells"?
01:01:08 <izabera> i mean they're really different
01:01:30 <hppavilion[1]> Because they're so different, but they have their uses.
01:01:44 <hppavilion[1]> AND they help expand the minds of programmers, get them to think in different ways
01:02:42 <hppavilion[1]> Programmers are smart, but not smart enough. The goal of the ZWG is to get programmers so smart that we become telepathic and can use our infinite glorious knowledge to become gods and rule over the universe with an iron fist as a massive collective wait what?
01:03:00 <hppavilion[1]> You saw nothing.
01:03:41 <izabera> that escalated quickly
01:03:50 <izabera> err... nothing escalated quickly
01:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> Good.
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01:21:41 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make yet another website documenting all of the math...
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01:31:55 <hppavilion[1]> But my "All of the Math" website would be targetted at people with a genuine interest in mathematics, as opposed to those who just need to get their homework done so they can pass
01:34:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44317&oldid=44316 * SuperJedi224 * (+113)
01:35:31 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean by λ-Arithmetic?
01:36:09 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I was just making things up xD. I was wondering if it was possible to create a simpler λ-calculus that need not be TC, but would be a good way to start learning about it
01:36:31 <hppavilion[1]> The same way it's easier to figure out normal Calculi if you already understand how to add
01:39:06 <tswett> Lambda calculus isn't really related to differential calculus, though.
01:39:58 <tswett> The word "calculus" in "lambda calculus" means "collection of symbol manipulation rules".
01:40:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I know, but that doesn't mean there isn't a much simpler thing that one could think of as the "arithmetic" of λness, though I suppose arithmetic wouldn't be the proper word for it
01:40:51 <hppavilion[1]> That doesn't mean there is, either, of course
01:40:53 <doesthiswork> first order lambda calc?
01:41:06 <hppavilion[1]> How about last order lambda calculus? xD
01:41:15 <hppavilion[1]> I've given up on λ-arithmetic
01:41:19 <hppavilion[1]> Though I'm remember that name
01:42:08 <hppavilion[1]> If, someday, I happen to be good with λ-calculus and want to help others understand it too (and they don't already), I might make a paper or a book called "λ-arithmetic" just as a pun
01:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> </discussion topic="λ-arithmetic">
01:43:10 <hppavilion[1]> (I might've said this before, but I'm saying it now because I don't think I did)
01:43:30 <hppavilion[1]> When I first checked my school district's requirements to graduate, I was a /little/ angry
01:43:39 <doesthiswork> <discussion topic="λ-arithmetic">http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/</discussion topic="λ-arithmetic">
01:43:40 <lifthrasiir> you may try non-Church encoding of arithmetics in \lambda calculus
01:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> You need 4 credits Social Studies and English
01:44:09 <hppavilion[1]> But only 3 in math and 3 (or maybe less) in science
01:44:26 <hppavilion[1]> And thus, I was like "OK school district, what the FUCK are you doing"
01:44:55 <hppavilion[1]> Then, in my Algebra II class, the teacher was talking about how some people hit a ceiling on their ability to comprehend math.
01:44:58 <hppavilion[1]> And I realized
01:45:01 <hppavilion[1]> That's not a problem
01:45:04 <doesthiswork> yes, I always hated english but had difficulty articulating that
01:45:13 <hppavilion[1]> xD
01:45:18 <hppavilion[1]> The problem is that they require so much english and Social Studies.
01:45:44 <hppavilion[1]> People don't necessarily need Math and Science, but others don't necessarily need English and Social Studies
01:46:24 <hppavilion[1]> I decided you shouldn't be required to take more math, because then some people would never graduate because they hit a ceiling on their ability to comprehend abstract mathematical concepts
01:46:59 <hppavilion[1]> You should be able to graduate on a fixed number of credits from /any/ class with some low minimums on how many can be from each subject
01:47:09 <doesthiswork> have you graduated yet?
01:47:13 <izabera> that's how civilization dies
01:47:16 <hppavilion[1]> Nope
01:47:49 <hppavilion[1]> That way, people who are great at writing but suck at math don't hit a ceiling, and people who are great at math but not so much at writing could greaduate on math credits
01:48:10 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: You couldn't get away with /no/ SS and English, but you also couldn't get away wiht /no/ math and science
01:48:50 <hppavilion[1]> And there will always be people who are good at math and science and enjoy it, so the idea that if we don't require as much then no one at all will understand it doesn't make sense
01:49:04 <izabera> by that reasoning, why are we forcing people to take their first grade math classes?
01:49:12 <izabera> we have calculators
01:49:21 <izabera> we don't need to be able to sum
01:49:27 <doesthiswork> tradition
01:49:34 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Because no one who doesn't have some serious issue hits the ceiling at first grade math
01:49:39 <zzo38> It still help to know how sum works, even if you can do it by calculator
01:49:52 <izabera> but children hit their ceilings
01:50:17 <hppavilion[1]> There's a BIG difference between having trouble at first grade math and being mentally unable to understand differential calculus
01:50:20 <zzo38> For simple sums I don't use the calculator, it is easy enough without
01:50:20 <doesthiswork> brett victor says we don't need as much analytic math because direct simulation can get many results that matter to us
01:50:21 <izabera> no
01:50:25 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: no there isn't
01:50:41 <doesthiswork> calculus is easy
01:50:57 <doesthiswork> conceptually
01:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: For you and me it is (well, I haven't gotten there yet, but it should be)
01:51:32 <izabera> everything that's taught in school classes is easy
01:51:46 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps for you
01:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> And, for the most part, for me
01:52:07 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm good at learning, bad at showing I did it on homework)
01:52:25 <izabera> being easy is the reason they're teaching it in school classes
01:52:51 <hppavilion[1]> OK
01:53:02 <tswett> I've always wanted to create a YouTube lecture series that teaches math.
01:53:14 <doesthiswork> I work as agricultural labor, all my coworkers can understand what a derivative is even if they don't know how that matches to written formulas.
01:53:19 <zzo38> Not all of them are good at easy; the art class is difficult, I dropped it.
01:53:44 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I want to see a video that works from arithmetic to calculus in pure mathematics
01:53:46 <hppavilion[1]> No analogies
01:54:37 <tswett> Then I hate to burst your bubble--there are gonna be analogies everywhere.
01:54:38 <hppavilion[1]> Just a short part of the video that defines some primitive symbols, then uses those symbols to define more complex things, and works up to extreme complexity
01:54:41 <\oren\> no matter how much calculus you know, you'll never become the suppository of all wisdom
01:54:51 <\oren\> -- Tony Abbot
01:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: In your video if you do it?
01:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> That's fine
01:54:59 <doesthiswork> analogies are the difficult part
01:55:03 <hppavilion[1]> I don't need you to do it personally xD
01:55:06 <tswett> Right, you're talking about something else.
01:55:17 <doesthiswork> they are the part that takes the most effort to learn
01:55:24 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Let's assume that people having trouble with calc is the same as people having trouble wiht multiplication.
01:55:25 <tswett> I think for every concept, I'd have three things: the intuition behind the concept, the definition of the concept, and a bunch of examples.
01:55:35 <izabera> ok let's
01:55:38 <tswett> And, of course, an explanation of how these all relate to each other.
01:55:49 <tswett> I figure my target audience is bright adults who just happen to have never learned this stuff.
01:55:53 <zzo38> What I would want is more of the books, the problem is they make too many videos which mean some things I cannot find in books so well
01:56:24 <zzo38> Some things are difficult with analogies, some things are difficult without analogies, some things are difficult either way, and some analogies are difficult.
01:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> So, can we agree that an average third grader is mentally incapable of understanding calculus, even if given all the resources needed to understand the things before it?
01:57:01 <hppavilion[1]> Or, more generally, that there's a minimum age that some people are capable of understanding some things?
01:57:15 <izabera> no we can't agree on that
01:57:26 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I do not know the answers to those questions, although it may also differ by people, not just age, anyways
01:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: On which one?
01:57:36 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: That's what I meant
01:57:43 <hppavilion[1]> Keyword: Average
01:58:07 <zzo38> Either way I don't know. (Also the first one you mentioned average, not the second one)
01:58:27 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: In the second one, I said "some people"
01:58:31 <izabera> i think the point is not age, is that to understand some concepts you need this and this and that
01:58:36 <zzo38> Yes, but which people?
01:58:44 <doesthiswork> my mom taught middle school math and the big concept that she tried to make sure everyone understood before they moved on was ratios and proportional relationships
01:58:46 <izabera> so you need to take this class and that class etc..
01:59:06 <zzo38> izabera: You are probably correct.
01:59:20 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'm trying to express that people learn at different rates, and though I'm ready for algebra II now, the people in the middle of the bell curve are not
01:59:33 <zzo38> Age may have something to do with it possibly, but a lot of other things are more important
02:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Can we agree on what I just said? Some people are prepared to learn things earlier than others?
02:00:56 <zzo38> That much I can agree with at least
02:01:02 <doesthiswork> never
02:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> izabera?
02:01:45 <doesthiswork> the tiebreaker
02:02:00 <zzo38> Theology is especially difficult though; I have confused well-educated religious people with it a lot
02:02:16 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah xD
02:02:17 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: go on
02:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> So we can agree on that though? Person A might be ready to learn something years before Person B?
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02:03:30 <hppavilion[1]> (I have two more axioms to agree on)
02:03:46 <hppavilion[1]> I'll just take that as a yes then
02:03:55 <izabera> i don't know how different the human brain was 10000 years ago, but i'm pretty sure they didn't teach multiplication in schools
02:04:11 <izabera> were they incapable of learning it?
02:04:43 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Possibly, but probably not.
02:04:46 <tswett> 10,000 years ago? I'd say probably just about the same.
02:05:16 <hppavilion[1]> Multiplication is something that I would guess anyone without some serious condition is capable of understanding by third grade
02:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> But not by the time they're 3, necessarily
02:05:43 <izabera> what about learning english?
02:06:06 <doesthiswork> yes, three year olds understand division much more better than multiplication
02:06:15 <izabera> my grandma doesn't speak english, and mine isn't that good
02:06:31 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: What we decide on here will encompass all four major subjects, I assume. We just happen to be focusing on math, as we're all geeks here
02:07:23 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition #2: Can it be agreed that there are jobs that one can be good at without understanding calculus that AREN'T just manual labor?
02:07:50 <izabera> they teached me how to play flute
02:07:57 <izabera> i never needed it past that class
02:08:05 <hppavilion[1]> OK
02:08:43 <doesthiswork> Programming is one example of prop #2
02:08:47 <tswett> My dad's job is definitely a highly skilled occupation, and I don't think he remembers how calculus works.
02:08:54 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition #3: Can it be agreed that, though there is most certainly a link, one can be very far to the right on a bell curve in one subject but average or below in another
02:09:16 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: Usually, yes. Unless you're at NASA. Then all bets are off.
02:09:57 <hppavilion[1]> (That's the final proposition, BTW)
02:10:42 <hppavilion[1]> I'm bored waiting, so let's assume the answer is yes.
02:10:53 <izabera> the problem isn't that
02:11:40 <izabera> you don't understand that the point of schools is to teach everyone the basics of various subjects
02:11:45 <izabera> the *basics*
02:12:51 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition 1: Some people are ready to learn things earlier than others
02:12:52 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition 2: You can get a good job without understanding Advanced Calculus or knowing the hidden meaning of Shakespear or what the Magna Carta was
02:12:52 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition 3: One can be good at one subject and average or bad at another
02:13:04 <hppavilion[1]> Are those all agreeable to you, izabera zzo38 and doesthiswork?
02:13:16 <zzo38> To me they are, yes
02:13:41 <zzo38> But izabera even said that isn't the point
02:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> True.
02:14:33 <hppavilion[1]> My argument is partially that Calculus isn't necessarily the basics
02:14:56 <hppavilion[1]> Depending on who you are
02:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork?
02:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> Property 1: The average student takes Calculus in their senior year
02:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> Property 2: Some people are below average
02:16:11 <hppavilion[1]> (Not going to ask for agreement on those because those are pretty much facts, AFAIK)
02:16:19 <doesthiswork> oh, I'm not really properly participating in the discussion, I'm just taking potshots when it is amusing
02:16:25 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
02:16:26 <hppavilion[1]> OK
02:16:52 <doesthiswork> I have no coherent point to make
02:17:12 <hppavilion[1]> Theorem 1: Some people aren't ready to learn Calculus by their senior year (Property 1+Property 2+Proposition 3)
02:17:36 <izabera> how old are people in their senior year?
02:18:00 <izabera> there's no senior year here
02:18:21 <hppavilion[1]> Corrolary to Theorem 1: Those people can still do well in life (Proposition 2)
02:18:28 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: 17-18 I believe
02:18:59 <hppavilion[1]> And that's my entire argument
02:19:09 <hppavilion[1]> Corrolary to Theorem 1 is the best I've got
02:19:14 <izabera> of course they can still do well in life
02:19:26 <izabera> that's what people did in 1500 when calculus didn't exist
02:19:39 <doesthiswork> Also I don't think izabera was necessarily arguing that every one should be required to take calculus
02:20:02 <doesthiswork> He was objecting to you drawing the line by difficulty
02:20:09 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Well, to be fair, people did well in life when math barely existed back when we were cavemen. You can't do well in life with no understanding of math now.
02:20:46 <hppavilion[1]> I'm arguing that Calculus is not necessary if you're not good at calculus because Property 3: People tend to want to do things they're good at
02:21:13 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm pretty sure that's a thing. Let me leave science for a minute and check what Sociology has to say)
02:22:06 <doesthiswork> No, don't go check, that breaks the rules of discussion.
02:22:11 <hppavilion[1]> And I give up. Don't know where to find documents on that.
02:22:46 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: I'm pretty sure that the rules of Internet Debate are that if you don't check that you're right when you're unsure, you're an idiot and shouldn't be debating
02:23:10 <doesthiswork> No: "if you don't know, make it up".
02:23:33 <\oren\> I'mma release the first version of my font since I switched away from fontstruct soon
02:24:46 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, I think I like this format. It seems much more effective a form of arguing to establish a list of propositions and properties and making sure everyone's on the same page prior to starting your argument
02:25:14 <hppavilion[1]> THEN making your argument in the form of theorems, lemmas, and conjectures
02:25:31 <doesthiswork> is that an conjecture?
02:25:42 <izabera> i didn't like this format as you're not proving anything
02:25:52 <oerjan> `olist 1005
02:25:54 <HackEgo> olist 1005: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
02:26:08 <shachaf> didn't we have this olist days ago?
02:26:59 <doesthiswork> is this that manual rss feed again?
02:27:14 <oerjan> shachaf: i must have missed it then...
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02:27:35 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: Why yes it is
02:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I suppose your'e not proving anything, but it seems more clear and concise, and it eliminates the factor of the 2+ parties having completely different view on how this works
02:29:05 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i suspect evil durkon may have made a mistake killing too many of the maintenance people...
02:29:08 <doesthiswork> you could write up a standard for this debate form
02:30:01 <doesthiswork> I can't remember where the link to the standards site is
02:33:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think that's not necessarily what's happening at all. people aren't _really_ agreeing, they're _tentatively_ agreeing in order to continue the discussion. that's because the propositions you pose are not either obviously true or false, nor do we have the skills to easily discern which it is.
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02:33:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh :/
02:34:08 <hppavilion[1]> Well alternatively, it might be a good way to cheat at arguing xD
02:35:40 <doesthiswork> so your conclusion is that less credits in each category should be required, right?
02:37:27 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: My conclusion is similar to that. It's that, though you should be required to get a certain amount of credits AND you should be required to get a minimum number of credits in each subject, the minimum in each subject should be lower, and you should have the freedom to choose what you're best at for additional credits
02:38:23 <hppavilion[1]> So basically, instead of 3 in math and 4 in english, perhaps 2 in math and 2 in english, but have the same number of require credits total. That frees people to focus more on what they're good at and doesn't put someone who simply isn't ready to comprehend the mysteries of calculus into a calculus class
02:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make up my own geometric system. Anyone have any ideas for axioms I could use?
02:39:35 <izabera> what if i suck at math/english/science/geography/history but 'm good at something that's not taught in schools?
02:39:48 <izabera> like playing pokemon
02:39:50 <\oren\>
02:39:53 <izabera> can i get credits for that?
02:40:30 <\oren\> only on the internet
02:40:41 <doesthiswork> the argument for lowering each requirement is that more is unnecessary?
02:41:11 <doesthiswork> what is the argument for requiring a certain amount of credits total?
02:42:03 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It has to be something that you can actually reasonably get by on in life
02:42:08 <hppavilion[1]> I'm probably wrong
02:42:22 <hppavilion[1]> This argument was mostly a channel for me to think about it
02:42:44 <hppavilion[1]> So
02:42:47 <hppavilion[1]> Esoteric Geometry
02:42:48 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZH4E8GG9vwm3OelIxjmnyYvjxAOwxGMTEr2ON5tWeSw/edit?usp=sharing
02:43:02 <izabera> ok, can i get credits for plowing a field?
02:43:47 <hppavilion[1]> Which one of you is currently in the doc?
02:44:00 <izabera> i opened the link
02:45:12 <hppavilion[1]> OK
02:46:58 <izabera> why did we move from an irc chat to chat in a google document?
02:47:59 <\oren\> beacuse cloud computing, internet of thingies, somethingsomething.io
02:49:27 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\ is right
02:51:22 <izabera> what's a dimension?
02:52:05 <doesthiswork> is is like a parallel universe where women are men and men are women
02:53:22 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: In geometry... a dimension... normal geometry is 2D or sometimes 3D.
02:53:44 <izabera> so what is it?
02:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> I've tried to do this before, but we wound up with a bunch of left triangle bullshit. I'm hoping to avoid that this time
02:54:24 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
02:55:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: A dimension is, essentially, a series of (n-1)-dimensional spaces (where n is the number of dimensions in question) along a line that is positioned a right angle to all other dimensions
02:55:15 <hppavilion[1]> I guess?
02:56:24 <izabera> you're using the word you're defining in the definition
02:56:40 <izabera> and a bunch of other undefined terms
02:56:47 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's recursively defined
02:56:49 <hppavilion[1]> xD
02:57:07 <hppavilion[1]> I guess I forgot a base case
02:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> Well
02:57:18 <izabera> look, this has been done before
02:57:19 <hppavilion[1]> ^c
02:57:27 <hppavilion[1]> Of course it has been
02:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> It never comes out as elegant as traditional geometry, but it works
02:57:42 <izabera> i suggest you to try to read some past work before trying to reinvent everything
02:57:53 <hppavilion[1]> Fair enough
02:57:55 <izabera> what's not elegant?
02:58:16 <hppavilion[1]> People trying to invent their own geometry
02:58:29 <hppavilion[1]> I imagine it never makes much sense
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02:58:36 <hppavilion[1]> But it still technically works
02:59:39 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Do you know of any good sources I could go to to find papers on irregular axiomatic systems in geometry?
03:02:43 <izabera> we had a course about this, it was called "introduction to mathematic thinking"
03:03:19 <izabera> it was more of something that brings students from different schools to a common starting point
03:03:31 <izabera> and they did stuff in hyperbolic geometry
03:03:40 <zzo38> Is there a English document of "Hina-Di" format? Right now I cannot find any English one nor is the Japanese one accessible
03:03:54 <izabera> and euclid and proving simple theorems etc...
03:04:17 <izabera> there's not real need to add buzzwords to make it sound complex because it really isn't
03:04:47 <izabera> s/not/no/
03:05:04 <izabera> you define your set of rules, then play according to them
03:06:37 <izabera> there's something called taxicab geometry, it's basically discrete geometry
03:07:29 <izabera> the fun thing is that squares are also circles and the diagonal of a square is 2x its side, etc...
03:10:50 <zzo38> Is it possible to make CSS rules that select based on other CSS rules? I want to make a rule that selects on "text-decoration: blink" and animates such elements. I also want to disable all CSS animations that I have not defined myself
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03:20:47 <\oren\> zzo38: I don't think so
03:21:11 <zzo38> I would also want to be able to selectively disable other kind of CSS rules
03:21:11 <\oren\> I think you can look for css with a user script and then replace it with other css though
03:23:43 <\oren\> Anyway, I finally figured out the full incantations and rituals necessary to convert a .bdf font into a .otf font with no blurriness or rounded edges
03:24:11 <izabera> what does it mean to release a font?
03:24:24 <izabera> i mean what happens then? you stop improving it?
03:24:43 <\oren\> It means I upload that version to my sebsite
03:25:00 <\oren\> I will keep working on it until I get tired of doing so
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03:25:11 <\oren\> s/sebsite/website/
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03:45:33 <\oren\> ⦀⦁⦂⦃⦄⦅⦆⦇⦈⦉⦊⦋⦌⦍⦎⦏⦐⦑⦒⦓⦔⦕⦖⦗⦘⦙⦚
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04:36:07 <zzo38> What other programming languages does OASYS Assembler resemble? I invented a program "OASYS Assembler" for an existing VM but I do not know what other program language it can be said to resemble? It is stack-based but does not have such stack operations as DUP and DROP and SWAP and so on, and unlike Forth the variable address must be pushed first before the value is pushed
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04:57:59 <hppavilion[1]> What would be a good way to implement a non-stateless lexer-building library/API?
04:58:05 <hppavilion[1]> Is it even possible?
04:58:21 <zzo38> I don't know how you meant exactly
05:00:06 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Well, to make a lexer is simple
05:00:48 <hppavilion[1]> You just go through the source, matching regexes at the beginning until you run out of code (and moving the "beginning" so it starts after the last token ends)
05:00:54 <hppavilion[1]> But then you encounter an issue:
05:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> x+(-y)
05:01:29 <hppavilion[1]> If you're lexing an arithmetical expression, you hit the issue where - can mean subtraction OR a negative number
05:01:46 <hppavilion[1]> I manage a small library that handles lexing for users in a simple way
05:01:58 <hppavilion[1]> But I don't know how to implement stated lexing
05:02:00 <hppavilion[1]> Any ideas?
05:02:25 <zzo38> You could do that after lexing I think?
05:02:45 <zzo38> Or else you must tell what it is based on the previous token
05:03:52 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
05:03:54 <hppavilion[1]> That might work
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05:59:31 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh
05:59:47 <hppavilion[1]> Python isn't recognizing the λ character in my regexes OR as a print function
06:00:12 <hppavilion[1]> And I've tried the obvious workarounds (making python unicode, using chr(0x03BB), etc)
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07:02:18 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see the concept of "even" and "odd" expanded to the Complex Numbers
07:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> Or at least the ones where a and b are integers (I forgot their name)
07:04:52 <\oren\> so tl;dr of the whole font fiasco: it is apparently very hard to turn a bitmap into a bunch of straight lines forming a square around each pixel. And, once you've done that, Microsoft Cleartype can't handle turning a square one pixel on a side into one pixel, so you have to include a bitmap showing it how to do it.
07:06:07 <\oren\> Am I like, the only person on earth who wants to have a method to do raster -> vector -> raster losslessly?
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07:13:13 <\oren\> On the bright side, I now have Hiragana: むめもゃやゅゆょよらりるれろゎわゐゑをんゔ
07:14:33 <sebbu> well, OCR is still considered hard
07:14:42 <sebbu> especially with low resolution or high noise
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07:21:48 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfBBVIoW-68&feature=youtu.be
07:26:16 <zzo38> I would rather you just used bitmap fonts directly though
07:26:39 <zzo38> Therefore you don't need to do raster->vector->raster
07:27:06 <\oren\> It would be nice if windows supported that but it doesn't
07:28:21 <zzo38> I think Windows does support bitmap fonts, last time I checked it can but it uses its own format that is not compatible with UNIX
07:29:37 <\oren\> In particular, I can't seem to create a .fon file with unicode in it
07:30:11 <zzo38> Maybe that format doesn't support Unicode; you need to use your own encodings
07:30:20 <zzo38> Another thing to try is turn off Cleartype
07:34:38 <\oren\> zzo38: I've actually figured out mostly a solution for this problem.
07:34:53 <\oren\> but the fact that it is necessary at all is stupid
07:36:45 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh! so will you add four thousand kanji too?
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07:37:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: or ten thousand korean syllables. that's probably easier to generate.
07:38:21 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bdf2otf.htm
07:38:49 <\oren\> that's the convoluted process. I've put it online so I can remember it after I finish drawing katakana
07:40:59 <\oren\> I plan on doing at least the 2000 Joyo kanji eventually
07:43:19 <\oren\> b_jonas: I don't plan on doing korean unless I can figure out ow to automate it
07:51:10 <b_jonas> \oren\: um, why couldn't you automate it? they're made of letters you just have to paste together.
07:51:35 <b_jonas> oh, 2000 kanji plus extras? wow, great
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07:52:57 <b_jonas> don't forget the common punctuation for Japanese too, like the full stop, comma, quotation marks, etc
07:55:01 <\oren\> good point
07:56:17 <b_jonas> luckily there's not many of them, and they're relatively easy to draw
07:56:22 <\oren\> so essentially I'll be working up to it being a viable alternative to GNU unifont that isn't fuck-ugly
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07:57:01 <\oren\> Hij_arcane!
08:00:00 <b_jonas> argh, I can't see the font because of some caching stuff
08:00:50 <\oren\> try refreshing a bunch oif times
08:00:57 <b_jonas> I'm trying, yes
08:01:12 <b_jonas> it could be a client-side problem
08:03:10 <b_jonas> wait, glagolitic? seriously? what next, will you be adding old phoenician?
08:03:27 <b_jonas> I still don't see the font though
08:04:16 <\oren\> Oh, I think the problem may be that only new versions of firefox have support for the css I'm using
08:04:59 <\oren\> I'll make a second one with different css
08:05:01 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, maybe the problem is that the browser won't show this type of font from the web
08:05:07 <b_jonas> what? why a second one?
08:05:10 <b_jonas> put both of them into the same css
08:05:15 <b_jonas> so they fall back
08:05:21 <b_jonas> seriously, web development best practice
08:05:27 <b_jonas> you don't make different versions for different browsers
08:06:39 <b_jonas> you can put multiple fallback font names to the font-face property
08:06:45 <\oren\> How is this?
08:06:50 <\oren\> I just changed it
08:07:41 <b_jonas> can't see it yet, but I suspect a client-side problem
08:07:48 <\oren\> I think newer versions of firefox require url("blah") format(opentype)
08:08:14 <b_jonas> why would they do that?
08:09:07 <\oren\> I dunno but it wasn;'t working on my win7 firefox withou ti
08:09:08 <b_jonas> let me try with Chrome
08:10:03 <b_jonas> I can't get it to work, argh
08:10:09 <b_jonas> I'll try at home
08:10:18 <Taneb> Aaaah I think I've found an error in a maths book
08:10:24 <b_jonas> thanks anyway
08:10:25 <Taneb> What do I do now
08:10:45 <b_jonas> Taneb: check existing errata, if it's not there, file bug report
08:11:11 <b_jonas> Taneb: sadly, lots of publishers don't care an ounce about supporting their already sold books with errata,
08:11:14 <b_jonas> but a few are better.
08:11:15 <Taneb> I cannot find any errata
08:11:44 <Taneb> (The Foundation of Mathematics by Ian Stewart and David Tall, Second Edition, Oxford University Press)
08:12:45 <b_jonas> Taneb: look at the beginning and end of the book for possible instructions on where to report bugs, failing that, just write to the publisher. you may want to buffer bug reports and send all ones for the same book together though.
08:13:39 <Taneb> b_jonas: cannot find anywhere to report bugs
08:13:44 <Taneb> The publisher over the authors?
08:13:54 <Taneb> And I'm a slow and easily distracted reader
08:18:01 <b_jonas> Taneb: I'm not sure. If you know the authors in person, it's better to send to them. Otherwise, I'm not sure.
08:18:15 <Taneb> I do not
08:18:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover might
08:18:31 <Taneb> (he goes to the university where at least one of them teaches, I believe)
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08:20:50 <Taneb> Does anyone else have a copy of this book to see if it is in fact an error?
08:21:21 <Taneb> Well, there are two errors I have seen on page 96
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08:21:58 <b_jonas> I don't have that book.
08:22:19 <b_jonas> You have read on a few pages, in case there's an explanation later, right?
08:23:13 <Taneb> It gives an example of a function "A = all subsets of {0,2,4}, B = N, f(x) = the smallest element of x"
08:23:22 <Taneb> This is not defined for x = {}
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08:24:20 <Taneb> It defines a function as "A function f from A to B is a rule that assigns to each a in A a unique element f(a) in B."
08:27:29 <ashl> maybe they just forgot to include the word 'non-empty' :P
08:27:50 <Taneb> ashl: which is still an error!
08:30:29 <Taneb> The other error on the page is it defines the domain of the factorial function as the positive reals
08:30:52 <ashl> what was the question? how to report an erratum?
08:31:00 <Taneb> Yes
08:31:15 <Taneb> Well, whether these are errors first
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08:39:06 <ashl> for the first one, yes; for the factorial one, depends how they define it
08:40:57 <Taneb> They don't define factorial, anywhere
08:45:49 <ashl> well you can define factorial on the positive real numbers
08:46:15 <ashl> but i expect they probably meant positive integers
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09:03:46 <\oren\> b_jonas: I think I'll start putting up image-based previews as well from now on
09:07:34 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.png
09:24:02 <ashl> how do you know your representations are faithful
09:25:06 <\oren\> what representations?
09:28:05 <\oren\> I mean, this image is basically a screenshot of the page as it appears on my system
09:29:01 <fizzie> There's a sign on a fence I see on my commute that says "Danger" and "Deep excavations". I'm worried about a possible balrog threat.
09:31:29 <ashl> did you for example grow up reading/writing the glagolitic writing system? if not, how do you know it is legible
09:31:52 <\oren\> The dark fire shall not avail you, Flame of Udûn!
09:33:24 <\oren\> ashl: Oh, for that one none still live who grew up writing it. Anyway most of the non-latin, non-Japanese letterforms are based on PDF's from the Unicode foundation
09:34:28 <\oren\> I only added glagolitic so that I would have the one tht looks like a dick. Ⰴ
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09:40:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: image! great, thanks
09:43:52 <b_jonas> \oren\: for the C64, do you have the left and right diagonally shaded blocks?
09:44:04 <b_jonas> the hiragana look nice, meanwhile
09:44:07 <\oren\> yah
09:45:15 <\oren\> uh, are they not there right above the hiragana?
09:45:58 <b_jonas> \oren\: no, those are diagonal half blocks
09:46:34 <\oren\> oh I see. I'll add them
09:46:42 <b_jonas> \oren\: I wonder what that third character in your C64 list is though
09:47:35 <\oren\> there is a character that looks like that in the c64 charset, not sure what it is supposed to be
09:47:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think it's club suit
09:47:45 <b_jonas> in the C64 set
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09:47:58 <b_jonas> there's also heart suit, diamond suit, and spade suit characters
09:48:05 <b_jonas> but you already have those in the font
09:49:34 <b_jonas> I presume you'll add fullwith katakana later
09:49:55 <\oren\> yah thats the very next thing
09:52:54 <mauris> your script letters beyond t are interesting
09:53:12 <mauris> rip the slant?
09:55:06 <mauris> nice, the c64 font has the ugliest pi i've ever seen
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10:06:38 <b_jonas> mauris: give it a break, they have just an 8x8 cell
10:06:54 <b_jonas> and that on bad quality CRTs where pixels are bleeding into one anothers
10:09:01 <b_jonas> with an analog signal and all that
10:11:20 <\oren\> that explains the thick vertical strokes and thin hrizontal
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10:16:25 <fizzie> b_jonas: At least it's not doing the NTSC composite-signal artifact color thing.
10:17:07 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_artifact_colors that thing
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10:25:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: what? the C64 is a color monitor, it does behave bad for some color combinations
10:25:44 <b_jonas> well, if you have a color monitor that is
10:25:51 <b_jonas> we've run it with black and green monitors
10:27:18 <\oren\> god did these people in the 80's even think about what an ASS this would be to write an emulator for?
10:27:33 <b_jonas> \oren\: hehe... probably no
10:27:59 <b_jonas> \oren\: are you trying to emulate the sprite collision detection in the video hardware? the C64 has it too, just like the Atari
10:29:13 <\oren\> I haven't wirtten a C64 emulator myself but thisngs like this are scaring me even further from it
10:29:59 <\oren\> really 80's programmers scare me in general
10:30:28 <\oren\> using these hardware-software hack tricks to create effects
10:31:52 <\oren\> i guess cleartype is similar but noone to my knowledge makes color fonts by using 1/3 pixel lines and shit
10:33:45 <b_jonas> There are C64 emulators ready to use, I wouldn't attempt to write a new one.
10:34:20 <b_jonas> Hardware-software hack tricks? Like the unreliable casette drive, which actually works better when emulated, because it reads back the signals it wrote perfectly?
10:35:30 <b_jonas> Using the casette drive involves the cpu too much for our 2000s tastes. It's like "winmodems".
10:35:39 <b_jonas> Only it's much more well-documented.
10:35:59 <b_jonas> People have analyzed and debugged the rom listings a lot, and reproduced everything..
10:36:46 <\oren\> do they use an error correcting code on the casette drive then?
10:38:41 <b_jonas> I don't know the details, luckily.
10:39:05 <b_jonas> I'm too young for this.
10:54:12 <fizzie> b_jonas: I just mean, the C64 colors are "real", it doesn't do the "let's have a monochrome signal and then turn on the NTSC colorburst so that some bit patterns get interpreted as color" thing, Apple II style. Sure, it's still all smeared up, but anyway.
10:55:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44318&oldid=42287 * SuperJedi224 * (+53)
10:55:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44320&oldid=44318 * SuperJedi224 * (-53)
10:56:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44321&oldid=44320 * SuperJedi224 * (+21)
11:26:10 <b_jonas> fizzie: ah
11:26:44 <b_jonas> but isn't a monochrome signal with tricks how analog color TV is always supposed to work in first place?
11:28:16 <fizzie> Well, okay, if you like to see it that way. But on the C64 the video hardware is at least thinking about color separately, you've got palettes and all that.
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11:39:04 <\oren\> man no matter what settings I use for Cleartype (other than "off") it always looks blurry. cleartype can go suck a Ⰴ
11:40:42 <fizzie> I used to have a 90-degree pivoted monitor, and even after telling the system about it, any sort of subpixel-based antialiasing just looked sucky on that thing.
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11:44:05 <\oren\> should really be called foggytype
11:46:25 <fowl> Cataractishtype
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14:43:08 <hkgit03> Only one more day until NEET
14:45:17 <hkgit03> (strictly speaking it's two more weeks but I have to use up the rest of my vacation)
14:47:14 <Taneb> hkgit03: where do you live?
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14:50:49 <hkgit03> Taneb: south west Germany
14:51:13 <Taneb> I don't know any jobs there seeing as I live in north England
14:51:17 <Taneb> And am a student
14:51:27 <hkgit03> I am a student for two more weeks :D
14:51:41 <hkgit03> Then my contract is over
14:52:41 <hkgit03> (It's what is called a "dual study". One studies and works alternately)
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15:17:30 <hkgit03> heading home. See ya o7
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15:19:26 <fizzie> Today's abbreviated git commit hash: a1aeaea.
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15:21:13 <Taneb> :D
15:21:52 <fizzie> "What are the chances of that!"
15:21:54 <fizzie> (1 over 2^28.)
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15:23:20 <Taneb> fizzie: compare that to how many git commits there are a day
15:31:56 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see the concept of "even" and "odd" expanded to the Complex Numbers <-- it turns out that "divisible by 1+i" is the same as "a+b even" while "divisible by 2" is the same as "a _and_ b even" choose wisely hth
15:31:56 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:33:28 <oerjan> hm wait is the first right
15:33:56 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] hm wait, not sure about the first two
15:33:57 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:34:34 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] now sure again hth
15:34:34 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
15:59:23 <izabera> how do you limit the speed when you're copying a file?
15:59:31 <izabera> i mean like in c
15:59:41 <izabera> do you sleep for a while after each read and write?
15:59:55 <oerjan> c: always the speed limit
16:01:23 <Taneb> oerjan: I don't think that izabera meant c as in the speed of light
16:02:09 <izabera> c the programming language <.<
16:02:42 <izabera> of course it doesn't have to be c, i'm just asking for the technique
16:04:19 <oerjan> Taneb: you're supposed to groan not explain hth
16:04:38 <Taneb> izabera: why do you need to
16:04:45 <Taneb> oerjan: my apologies
16:05:01 <izabera> i don't, i'm just interested in learning how to do it
16:05:59 <izabera> i mean sleeping between after writing the data can work i think, not sure if it's the standard way or if there's a better way
16:09:35 <shachaf> `olist 1006
16:09:36 <HackEgo> olist 1006: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
16:10:18 <fizzie> izabera: I think I've read the source for either wget's or curl's rate limiting (for sockets, not files, but it's pretty much the same), and IIRC it was pretty much just about sleeping.
16:10:39 <izabera> oh ok
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18:33:07 <tswett> Let's see, can't the concept of even and odd be extended to most algebraic numbers?
18:35:11 <tswett> Yeah, I think here's how you do it.
18:35:48 <tswett> No, wait.
18:39:04 <tswett> Okay, here's part of it.
18:40:01 <tswett> If a polynomial's leading coefficient is odd, and the sum of its non-constant coefficients is odd, then its roots have the same parity as its constant coefficient.
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18:42:48 <tswett> That doesn't quite sound right. A polynomial can have roots that aren't all the same parity.
18:42:58 <tswett> Like x^2 - 5x + 6.
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19:04:25 -!- Bjarne_ has joined.
19:04:36 <Bjarne_> whoosh Hello
19:06:21 <Bjarne_> Why the heck are all the IRC channels I join so quiet?
19:06:29 <Bjarne_> #fsharp is quiet
19:06:48 <Bjarne_> and others too
19:09:06 <Bjarne_> *sigh*
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19:10:48 <Vorpal> Apparently you joined at the wrong time
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19:44:48 <hppavilion[1]> (a -> b) -> (c -> d)
19:45:00 <hppavilion[1]> I love that about first-class citizens
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19:49:31 -!- vifino has joined.
19:49:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Wasn't the first time they complained about the lack of talking.
19:51:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rs]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44322 * 63.232.95.4 * (+332) Created
19:53:38 -!- ^v has joined.
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19:59:00 <zzo38> What I would like to see is open-source game engine of the style like Apogee's "Pharaoh's Tomb" and "Arctic Adventure", with four-colour graphics, the unusual (but good) control scheme it uses, similar kind of sound effect, etc but some improvements could also be made such as a level editor, more difficult levels, time limits, and more kind of pieces
20:03:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:03:46 <zzo38> They did even mention a sequel which they never made as far as I can tell. (One about a journey to the center of the Earth)
20:10:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rs]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44323&oldid=44322 * Kirbyfan64sos * (+77)
20:13:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rs]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44324&oldid=44323 * 63.232.95.4 * (+0)
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21:42:20 <oerjan> <tswett> That doesn't quite sound right. A polynomial can have roots that aren't all the same parity. <-- i think you need the polynomial to be irreducible, i.e. not a product of two others
21:42:48 <oerjan> then maybe it works
21:43:20 <oerjan> note that (x^2 - 5x + 6) = (x - 2)*(x - 3)
21:43:51 <oerjan> which means you get only the product of parities otherwise
21:44:53 <oerjan> also, i believe there's a concept of roots of polynomials with 1 as leading coefficient being more "integer-like" (i've forgotten the actual term)
21:45:03 <oerjan> oh hm
21:45:24 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_integer
21:48:14 <int-e> oerjan: try figuring out whether w = e^{i 2pi/3} is odd or even. Note that w^2 + w = -1...
21:48:55 <oerjan> well by tswett's definition, that's odd...
21:49:27 <oerjan> it's the parity of the constant coefficient
21:49:37 <int-e> really ... are you looking at x^3-1 or at x^2+x+1?
21:49:46 <int-e> ah
21:49:52 <oerjan> the latter, although in this case it doesn't matter
21:50:05 <int-e> okay, so two odd numbers no longer add to an even number
21:50:17 <oerjan> ooh
21:50:21 <tswett> Even numbers should definitely be closed under addition.
21:50:31 <oerjan> then there may be a problem :P
21:50:34 <tswett> Any definition which doesn't satisfy that criterion is wrong.
21:51:19 <oerjan> er but need odd numbers sum to even ones >:)
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21:51:52 <oerjan> that example is almost designed to break that, no matter what you choose
21:52:19 <oerjan> (because w^2 + w + 1 = 0 has w^2 as a solution too)
21:53:22 <tswett> So, right, if the leading coefficient is 1, and the constant term is odd, then the roots must all be odd... right?
21:53:32 <oerjan> you'd think
21:53:45 <oerjan> note i haven't seen this concept defined that i can recall
21:53:46 <boily> @massages-loud
21:53:46 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
21:53:53 <oerjan> except by you
21:56:02 <tswett> So that would imply that the roots of w^2 + w + 1 are all odd.
21:56:12 <oerjan> > let w = exp(0 :+ 2*pi/3) in (w^2 + w + 1, w^4 + w^2 + 1) --checking
21:56:14 <lambdabot> (0.0 :+ 3.3306690738754696e-16,4.440892098500626e-16 :+ 5.551115123125783e-16)
21:56:19 <tswett> But by inspection, you can tell that the sum of the roots is -1 (since the w coefficient is 1), and there are two roots.
21:56:45 <oerjan> hm right that's another way
21:57:39 <tswett> Which would seem to imply that the sum of two odd numbers can now be odd.
21:57:51 <tswett> But I'm not sure I actually want to assign a parity to w at all.
21:58:02 <oerjan> tricky
21:58:08 <tswett> The polynomial w^2 + w + 1 = 0 has no solutions modulo 2.
21:58:50 <oerjan> right
21:59:15 <hppavilion[1]> What extension does Esolangs use for the better editing window?
21:59:36 <tswett> Perhaps we should assign parity in exactly those situations where, modulo 2, the polynomial factors as x^a (x - 1)^b.
22:00:10 <tswett> Which certainly excludes most polynomials.
22:00:43 <tswett> I think I'd also want the degree to be a + b, to ensure that the leading x term doesn't vanish modulo 2.
22:01:19 <tswett> I don't know what to do in the case where a and b are both positive.
22:01:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: You seem to be qualified to answer these things
22:02:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i _seem_, but i'm not.
22:02:33 <oerjan> ask ais523 or fizzie
22:03:25 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Are you on?
22:03:30 <tswett> This definition of parity may or may not work.
22:05:46 <int-e> yeah, the two roots of x^2 + x + 2 add to -1. (a = 1, b = 1)
22:05:57 <tswett> I think this effectively entails that w is half of an odd number, because 2w satisfies the polynomial (2w)^2 + 2(2w) + 4 = 0, which, modulo 2, taking 2w as a primitive variable, is simply (2w)^2.
22:06:07 <tswett> Did I say odd?
22:06:31 <oerjan> int-e: erm...
22:06:54 <int-e> oerjan: a and b are the exponents introduced by tswett above
22:06:57 <int-e> not the roots
22:07:18 <tswett> It's apparently half of an even number, without actually being an odd number.
22:07:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:08:12 <oerjan> i'll hazard a guess twice any number is even hth
22:08:27 <tswett> How about twice half an odd number?
22:08:34 <Taneb> like 2 and a half
22:08:54 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:08:59 <oerjan> by "number" i mean a number given by an integral polynomial with odd leading coefficient
22:09:02 <int-e> why guess? if p(x) of degree n has root x, then 2^n p(x/2) has root 2x... and many even coefficients
22:09:04 <tswett> Ah.
22:09:32 <int-e> (in fact, 2^n p(x/2) = x^n (mod 2))
22:09:33 <oerjan> to double it, you just double the second coefficient, quadruple the third, etc. afaics
22:09:54 <tswett> It looks like int-e proved it.
22:09:56 <oerjan> which leaves x^n = 0 (mod 2)
22:09:59 <tswett> Right.
22:09:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> Sorry
22:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> Classes ended
22:10:05 <tswett> Boom. Twice any algebraic integer is even.
22:10:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: YOU WILL BE SORRY
22:10:43 <tswett> Hey, what happens when you substitute (x+1) for x? What happens to the coefficients and whatnot?
22:10:44 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That was like that trope in TV and Movies where they're too lazy to invent a joke so they JUST include the punchine
22:10:57 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie?
22:11:25 <tswett> Does this always end up flipping the parity?
22:11:36 -!- Wright has joined.
22:12:10 <oerjan> tswett: was it you i @told about 1 + i as divisor, that's then sort of intermediate for gaussian integers
22:12:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: fizzie isn't answering. Anyone else I could ask?
22:12:23 <tswett> oerjan: wasn't me, I'm pretty sure.
22:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a special page on what extensions the wiki uses or something?
22:12:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think that was me
22:12:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ais523 is the "wikipedia expert" in my mind, although he may be a bit dated
22:12:48 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], one of these http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:SpecialPages
22:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> Ah
22:12:56 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I tried that
22:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> But not very hard
22:13:15 <Phantom_Hoover> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:Version
22:13:18 <oerjan> tswett: well then, note that (1 + i)(1 - i) = 2 so 1 + i divides 2 in the gaussians, so you get at least two possible definitions of "even" there
22:14:13 <oerjan> hm what's the polynomial for 1 +- i
22:14:28 <tswett> Let's see. For x^2 + bx + c, if b = 0 and c = 0, the roots are even; if b = 0 and c = 1, the roots are odd; if b = 1 and c = 0, one root is odd and the other is even; if b = 1 and c = 1, no parity is assigned.
22:14:51 <int-e> oerjan: x^2 - 2x + 2
22:14:59 <tswett> x^2 - 2x + 2.
22:15:04 <tswett> I typed it before int-e hit enter; hth.
22:15:10 -!- adu has joined.
22:15:18 <oerjan> i _meant_ it as a rhetorical question, but thanks :P
22:15:21 <tswett> So the roots are even.
22:15:24 <tswett> os
22:16:16 <int-e> tswett: almost trivially, if p(x) = x^n (mod 2) then p(x+1) = (x+1)^n (mod 2)
22:16:23 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
22:16:27 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
22:16:32 <tswett> int-e: doink, you're right.
22:16:36 <hppavilion[1]> Looks like it doesn't use an extension
22:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe it's CSS?
22:16:44 <tswett> I'm liking this definition I came up with.
22:16:53 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], what are you trying to unravel
22:17:17 -!- Wright has joined.
22:17:19 <oerjan> tswett: i think substituting x+1 for x will not change the leading coefficient and will flip the parity of the constant one, but the rest might depend.
22:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I just set up a (second) wiki locally, and when I created the main page, the editor was different. And the differntness was ugly
22:17:32 <hppavilion[1]> *differentness
22:19:10 <tswett> Now, do we need to limit this definition to algebraic integers?
22:20:57 <tswett> I'm thinking we can't apply it to all algebraic numbers.
22:21:09 <oerjan> hm wait not sure of my last statement
22:21:16 <tswett> Wait, maybe we can.
22:21:32 <int-e> you have already restricted it to those whose minimal polynomials factor nicely modulo 2... haven't you
22:21:44 <tswett> Yes.
22:22:01 <tswett> So the definition doesn't apply to 2x - 1 = 0 by virtue of the fact that the polynomial modulo 2, which is 1, doesn't have enough factors.
22:22:14 <tswett> The definition automatically fails for all even leading coefficients.
22:22:24 <oerjan> tswett: i think it's somewhat analogous to in the rational numbers, where you cannot sensibly assign evenness to p/q if q is even
22:22:33 <oerjan> but might if q is odd
22:22:51 <tswett> But for all rational numbers irreducibly written as p/q, if q is odd, then it gets the parity of p.
22:22:57 <tswett> If q is even, it gets no parity.
22:22:58 <oerjan> yeah
22:23:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: obviously the person i _really_ would ask is elliott, but he hasn't been in the channel since May.
22:24:05 <hppavilion[1]> Oh :/
22:24:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making yet another "ALL THE MATHS" website
22:24:19 <tswett> He hasn't? Tdnh.
22:24:36 <hppavilion[1]> I am, at least for now or in part, using a MediaWiki for it
22:24:53 <oerjan> he did sort of imply to me that he might stop visiting before that, though.
22:26:25 <tswett> תדנה
22:26:31 <oerjan> and accidentally showed up on the wiki in july or so
22:27:32 <oerjan> tswett: ok how does google translate know that means tdnh
22:27:59 <oerjan> `unidecode תדנה
22:28:00 <HackEgo> ​[U+05EA HEBREW LETTER TAV] [U+05D3 HEBREW LETTER DALET] [U+05E0 HEBREW LETTER NUN] [U+05D4 HEBREW LETTER HE]
22:28:10 <tswett> oerjan: by the fact that those are Hebrew letters which have Latin equivalents?
22:28:49 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Quit: WALRUS MAAAAAAAAAAAAN).
22:29:11 <oerjan> tswett: but hebrew is the _one_ language where i wouldn't expect interpretation as acronym...
22:29:40 <oerjan> because it doesn't include the vowels
22:30:39 <tswett> oerjan: well, what did you expect GT to produce?
22:31:19 <oerjan> some actual word
22:31:31 <oerjan> as you get if you remove any single of those letters
22:31:39 <int-e> tswett: ok, I believe your notion of even and odd numbers works out (i.e. addition and multiplication work out as expected) ... following along the lines of proving that the algebraic numbers are closed under addition and multiplication.
22:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell hppavilion[1] wiki css is in one of the pages listed here if you want to copy it http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=8
22:32:46 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:33:14 <int-e> so we get a funny subring of the algebraic numbers that enjoy parity.
22:33:26 <oerjan> <tswett> The definition automatically fails for all even leading coefficients. <-- hm are you sure? you could say the _first_ even coefficient counts as leading after (mod 2)...
22:33:52 <int-e> oerjan: but the definition explicitely forbade that
22:34:19 <oerjan> er *odd
22:34:42 <int-e> (well, as an afterthought at least)
22:35:46 <int-e> ftr, I'm using: "z is even if it is the root of a polynomial p in Z[x] of degree n with p(x) = x^n (mod 2); z is odd if z+1 is even"
22:36:25 <int-e> (you can restrict the first part to minimal polynomials; it makes no difference)
22:37:39 <oerjan> int-e: oh you're saying that these form a subring?
22:37:49 <oerjan> of both odds and evens
22:38:49 <oerjan> i suppose it's just the evens + integers
22:38:56 <oerjan> and the evens are themselves a ring
22:39:04 <oerjan> (without unity)
22:39:44 <int-e> oerjan: yes, I'm saying that.
22:41:23 <oerjan> and 1 +- i are a examples of even numbers that are _not_ twice an algebraic integer.
22:41:26 <oerjan> *-a
22:42:09 <oerjan> i suspect with higher degree you can get things that aren't 1+i times one, either
22:42:31 <oerjan> x^n + 2(x^(n-1) + ... + 1) = 0, perhaps
22:43:03 <oerjan> oh hm
22:43:10 <oerjan> x^2 - 2 = 0
22:43:40 <oerjan> so sqrt(2) is in there
22:43:55 <tswett> oerjan: the definition says a + b has to equal the degree.
22:44:11 <tswett> Which I guess is effectively the same as saying the leading coefficient has to be odd.
22:45:26 <tswett> sqrt(2) is even? I was expecting it to have no parity.
22:46:04 <oerjan> tswett: um i think int-e assumed either a or b is 0, for what he said
22:46:13 <oerjan> what is the parity if neither is 0
22:47:40 <int-e> well, that's why I mentioned x^2 + x + 2 earlier; the two roots add to an odd number...
22:48:01 <int-e> so they shouldn't be assigned a parity
22:48:25 <oerjan> mhm
22:50:46 <tswett> My definition claimed that for x^2 + x + 2, one root is even and the other is odd.
22:50:51 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] i suspect it might be this extension which was listed on our version page https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiEditor
22:50:51 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:51:13 <tswett> But that doesn't make much sense, since the roots are complex conjugates.
22:51:36 <oerjan> unsensible
22:51:38 <tswett> Maybe they're in a quantum superposition of even and odd, the two of them being entangled at opposite parities hth?
22:52:08 <oerjan> very good. now you're thinking with quantum.
22:53:36 <boily> `wisdom
22:53:37 <HackEgo> burma/ask Bike
22:53:45 <boily> @ask Bike burma?
22:53:45 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
22:54:33 <tswett> Ask for four more pieces of wisdom and then delete one.
22:54:48 <tswett> `wisdom
22:54:49 <HackEgo> ​$1?/$1? ��\(��_o)/��
22:55:03 <oerjan> Bike's away message is disturbing tdnh
22:55:41 <int-e> HackEgo: what encoding is that?
22:56:03 <oerjan> what happened there...
22:56:17 <oerjan> `cat bin/wisdom
22:56:18 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom/*"$1"* -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
22:56:26 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/\$*
22:56:27 <HackEgo> wisdom/$1?
22:56:31 <oerjan> `? fnørd
22:56:31 <HackEgo> fnørd? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:56:40 <int-e> `` cat wisdom/\$*
22:56:40 <HackEgo> ​$1? ��\(��_o)/��
22:56:47 <int-e> `` rm wisdom/\$*
22:56:49 <HackEgo> No output.
22:57:21 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/\$*
22:57:23 <HackEgo> No output.
22:57:32 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/'$1?' | grep summary:
22:57:34 <HackEgo> summary: <int-e> ` rm wisdom/\\$* \ summary: <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ summary: <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <elliott> revert 1 \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <ais5
22:57:44 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/'$1?' | grep summary: | tail -n+4
22:57:46 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <elliott> revert 1 \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <ais523> revert 87c64ef250a0 \ summary: <ais523> revert 3 \ summary: <Bike> learn $1? \xef\xbf\xbd\xef\xbf\xbd\\(\xef\xbf\xbd\xef\xbf\xbd_o)/\xef\xbf
22:58:02 <oerjan> Bike!
22:58:14 <int-e> oerjan: of course that leaves the question whether the subring is the largest possible one...
22:58:20 <int-e> oerjan: go on, @ask about it ;-)
22:58:26 <tswett> Aleph null hth.
22:59:00 <int-e> tswett: w.r.t. the subset relation, not cardinality
22:59:19 <tswett> Not a total order hth.
22:59:36 <tswett> Except I guess "largest" makes perfect sense for a partial order.
23:00:16 <shachaf> when i was young i used to confuse "burma" and "bursa" tdnh
23:00:34 <oerjan> myansar
23:01:38 <int-e> anyway, sleep
23:03:42 -!- boily has quit (Quit: BACKTRACK CHICKEN).
23:04:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:04:54 <hppavilion[1]> I'm-a-back!
23:06:28 <fizzie> I'm not answering what?
23:09:10 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], wiki css is in one of the pages listed here if you want to copy it http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=8
23:09:18 <hppavilion[1]> I heard
23:11:16 <fizzie> I was actually thinking of bumping the version from 1.22 to 1.25 real soon now; but today was unexpectedly busy.
23:12:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i suspect it was that extension i saw in your linked Version page
23:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover> it sounded like hppavilion[1] installed it but it looked like shit so he was trying to get our formatting as well
23:13:26 <hppavilion[1]> Just in the edit window
23:13:42 <hppavilion[1]> It's currently kind of ugly. Squares buttons. Bleck.
23:13:56 <oerjan> hm
23:14:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: do you have the same skin (vector iirc)?
23:15:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I believe so. fizzie: Do you know if the "vector" skin has been modified from its default version?
23:17:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Phantom_Hoover: Looks like the page where Vector.css is stored doesn't contain the whole thing
23:18:20 <Phantom_Hoover> you tried common.css?
23:19:03 <hppavilion[1]> I believe so
23:19:12 <hppavilion[1]> Vector.css is a BIG(-ish) folder
23:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> s/.css//
23:19:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: do you have the same preferences settings on both wikis?
23:20:05 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm not sure. I don't think I ever changed preferences on either one, but there might be irregular default preferences on esolangs
23:20:25 <oerjan> check the editing preferences tab, i guess
23:21:19 <hppavilion[1]> Oh
23:21:35 <hppavilion[1]> Looks like there's some weird stuff going on with the way the main page looks
23:23:45 <hppavilion[1]> Meh
23:23:51 <hppavilion[1]> Esolangs is Public Domain
23:24:58 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering using some of the site's content (e.g. the main page's layout and formatting) on my own (CC-BY-SA) wiki
23:25:31 <hppavilion[1]> I think I will
23:26:55 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: As far as I know, LocalSettings.php is the only modified file we have.
23:27:00 <fizzie> The rest is all in the database.
23:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> Huh
23:27:16 <fizzie> But there's some CSS tweakery that has been done.
23:28:34 <fizzie> As for the skin, LocalSettings.php seems to have $wgVectorUseSimpleSearch = true; set.
23:28:47 <fizzie> That's about it.
23:32:35 <oerjan> perhaps it's just a result of gradual upgrade since 2005 or thereabouts
23:33:35 <oerjan> so now we have a nice upgraded style, while all the new design are crap, pretty much like the web in general hth
23:33:50 <oerjan> *is
23:34:16 <fizzie> I'll probably break it by updating to 1.25.
23:34:22 <oerjan> darn.
23:34:56 <oerjan> that's too plausible given everything else that's been broken^Wredesigned this year
23:49:05 <oerjan> *sigh* what happened to microsoft's monthly updates
23:49:33 <oerjan> especially the part where they only happened once a month.
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