00:06:57 <lambdabot> Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "(Applicative f, Traversable t) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)"
00:07:22 <oerjan> @free (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
00:07:22 <lambdabot> Pattern match failure in do expression at src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Haskell/Free/FreeTheorem.hs:54:21-35
00:07:32 <oerjan> @free t :: (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
00:07:33 <lambdabot> Plugin `free' failed with: src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Haskell/Free/Type.hs:(152,17)-(160,45): Non-exhaustive patterns in case
00:08:23 <lambdabot> free <ident>. Generate theorems for free
00:08:46 <lambdabot> Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "Floating a => a -> a"
00:09:01 <oerjan> has @free been broken completely
00:09:10 <lambdabot> g . h = k . f => $map g . map h = map k . $map f
00:09:30 <lambdabot> Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "(Monad m, Traversable t) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b)"
00:10:14 <oerjan> @free traverse :: (a -> IO b) -> [a] -> IO [b]
00:10:15 <lambdabot> $map_IO g . h = k . f => $map_IO ($map g) . traverse h = traverse k . $map f
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00:31:44 <izabera> i'm eating a can of tuna and on the can there's this text: bast before 18/09/2017 09:53
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00:32:37 <izabera> (it's in italian so that part doesn't really matter)
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00:51:25 <zzo38> I want to force the "mUsingConnect" of "nsHttpConnectionInfo" to false; it is set in the "Init" method but I want to override it in a JavaScript code so that it forces false
00:55:06 <zzo38> I want to force it not to use the CONNECT method
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01:01:22 <newsham> in brainfuck, does "[" always reference the same cell on each iteration, or does it dynamically reference the current pointer when "]" is encountered?
01:02:06 <izabera> why does it have to be dynamic?
01:02:28 <newsham> both choices are valid, i want to know what brainfuck defines
01:02:48 <pikhq> newsham: It refers to the current pointer.
01:03:45 <izabera> i think i need a clarification on that question
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01:04:38 <newsham> thank you, that solved my bug :)
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01:07:38 <oerjan> <shachaf> 19:44 <blurelIse> toyed with the idea of writing my own coding language before i found this room <-- i'm going to assume e joined on the wrong network by mistake
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01:09:34 <oerjan> gender neutral pronoun
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01:10:09 <oerjan> it's the official GNP in Agora Nomic
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01:11:21 <izabera> how did that become official?
01:11:39 <oerjan> well, traditional, anyway. it may not be an actual rule.
01:11:44 <izabera> spivak's are so different from everything else... i'd much rather use zie/hir
01:11:58 <oerjan> i'm not sure, it's possible we inherited it from Nomic World
01:12:38 <oerjan> (can i use "we" despite currently not being a Player? well, i just did.)
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01:13:00 <pikhq> The tradition comes because Suber (inventor of Nomic) was fond of Spivak pronouns.
01:13:22 <izabera> do you all play nomic here?
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01:13:37 <oerjan> oh was it in the original suber set too...
01:13:39 <pikhq> Not *all* of us, but definitely a higher proportion than normal.
01:14:36 <pikhq> I don't entirely know.
01:14:48 <oerjan> shachaf: somewhere below 1% i guess
01:15:27 <pikhq> Homo sapiens sapiens.
01:16:08 <oerjan> hm doesn't look like it
01:17:55 <oerjan> it's not in the original nomic world ruleset, but it's in this version http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/ruleset-1dec92
01:18:42 <oerjan> rather inconsistently in a single rule.
01:18:53 <oerjan> (other rules use "he or she" and "they")
01:21:00 <oerjan> eek dead link to ruleset collection
01:22:20 <oerjan> ah the initial Agora ruleset had 5 instances https://www.fysh.org/~zefram/agora/chuck0_nr_19930630.txt
01:24:58 <shachaf> what if this nomic thing was a complicated distributed system where by the time a proposal you submit to amend the rules is seen by other people, the rules they know about have already changed
01:25:59 <oerjan> sounds cool, but probably not workable with the number of players a game tends to get
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01:38:13 <oerjan> this lambda calculus discussion made me wonder
01:38:42 <oerjan> can you write the S combinator as a lambda expression using only 2 variables
01:44:09 <shachaf> hey, you're not completely trivial
01:44:28 <oerjan> you don't know that hth
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01:45:48 <shachaf> oerjan: interesting question
01:45:56 <shachaf> my first guess is that the answer is no
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01:47:52 <oerjan> K and KI give you booleans
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01:48:01 <oerjan> can you encode pairs...
01:51:34 <oerjan> hm you have church numerals
01:55:43 <shachaf> this is like de bruijn indices where you only allow 0 or 1
02:03:26 <shachaf> it's interesting that in BCKW, CKW correspond to the three types of structure people talk about in substructural type systems
02:04:01 <izabera> my pastebin served pages to over 1000 different ip addresses since august 23
02:04:08 <shachaf> what sort of substructural type system has reordering, discarding, and duplication, but not composition?
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03:24:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44393&oldid=44259 * 198.58.161.28 * (-10) /* Compilation */ Befunjit paragraph applies to Bejit as well
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04:25:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vihan * New user account
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05:02:21 <zzo38> HSTS can be disabled in Firefox by the use of a hexeditor. But I have read that HSTS flags cannot be deleted on iPad even if the device is wiped, and can leave an indelible mark by the use of HSTS supercookies. Actually I think it may be possible to get rid of them if you can use a proxy server to set all of the HSTS flags that make up that supercookie; it is kind of like deleting the data on a punch card by punching all of the positions.
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05:25:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44394 * Vihan * (+2521) Added specification
05:28:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44395&oldid=44279 * Vihan * (+11) Added HALT
05:31:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44396&oldid=44394 * Vihan * (+81) Added Interpreter
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05:39:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44397&oldid=44396 * Vihan * (+197)
05:46:49 <zzo38> The X cursor font is missing a magnifier icon; it seems to have everything else.
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06:26:55 <oerjan> hm wait was that the right syntax
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06:37:29 <izabera> glue 3 and 5 together and you get 35
06:38:24 <izabera> does this sequence always stop for every integer > 1 ?
06:40:03 <\oren\> wait why does 57 become 319 and not 139?
06:40:06 <zzo38> I not only don't know the answer for base ten but I don't know the answer for base two either.
06:41:07 <\oren\> the prime factors are arranged in order from small to large
06:41:07 <izabera> i wrote a small script to test this and all numbers below 1000 terminate, except 49 which is still going
06:43:05 <Jafet> `` n=49; while true; do echo $n; n=$(factor $n | tr -cd '[0-9]'); done
06:43:11 <HackEgo> 31135742029: 7 17 261644891
06:43:29 <myname> izabera: do you know after what number of iterations the others stop?
06:43:35 <HackEgo> 49 \ 4977 \ 497733779 \ 497733779497733779 \ 497733779497733779711131952579497733779 \ factor: `497733779497733779711131952579497733779' is too large
06:44:02 <Jafet> `` n=49; for i in `seq 100`; do echo $n; n=$(factor $n | cut -d\ -f2- | tr -cd '[0-9]'); done
06:44:05 <izabera> myname: i wrote a script that does it for me
06:44:22 <myname> izabera: what is the maximum iteration besides 49?
06:44:33 <HackEgo> 49 \ 77 \ 711 \ 3379 \ 31109 \ 132393 \ 344131 \ 1731653 \ 71143523 \ 11115771019 \ 31135742029 \ 717261644891 \ 11193431873899 \ 116134799345907 \ 3204751189066719 \ 31068250396355573 \ 62161149980213343 \ 336906794442245927 \ 734615161567701999 \ 31318836286194043641 \ factor: `31318836286194043641' is too large
06:44:56 <Jafet> @oeis 49,77,711,3379,31109
06:44:56 <lambdabot> Concatenate all the prime divisors in previous term (with repetition), start...
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06:45:24 <myname> why doesn't it print put a link
06:45:37 <oerjan> int-e: i'm with myname
06:45:45 <zzo38> How do you tell it to display the OEIS ID number
06:45:48 <oerjan> at least have a command for it
06:45:57 <izabera> looks like i missed something and 77 takes a while... ^^'
06:46:05 <oerjan> @sequence 49,77,711,3379,31109
06:46:05 <lambdabot> Concatenate all the prime divisors in previous term (with repetition), start...
06:46:21 <zzo38> Rather than only the description
06:46:48 <myname> izabera: weöö, obviously
06:46:50 <izabera> http://arin.ga/t6ZGY8/raw output for 49 so far
06:46:55 <oerjan> https://oeis.org/A056938/internal
06:46:59 <myname> izabera: 77 needs one step less than 49
06:47:57 <oerjan> izabera: page claims up to 117 steps without stopping
06:48:43 <izabera> well my laptop isn't really suited for number crunching
06:49:03 <izabera> especially if it's pointless number crunching like this <.<
06:49:18 <Jafet> Oh, it's slow because it requires factoring
06:49:25 <\oren\> at some point I should figure out how to network all my linux boxen into a cluster
06:50:21 <\oren\> Are there cluster architectures that allow use of 286's?
06:50:42 <\oren\> and x86-64's in the same cluster
06:51:02 <Jafet> I don't think you want to write any software for a cluster that has a 286.
06:51:53 <\oren\> Jafet: but I have a 286 PC just sitting there
06:53:34 <\oren\> I got it from my high school, sitting on the curb so i have no idea
06:54:05 <\oren\> it has several external parallel ports
06:55:13 <\oren\> I was using it for a while to play DOOM
06:55:47 <oerjan> http://www.worldofnumbers.com/topic1.htm
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06:58:50 * \oren\ googles parallel port and realizes it has only one parallel port. the multiple ones are serial prts, which make no sense, since they have nine pins in parallel?
06:59:36 <\oren\> well regardless it has three serial ports and one parallel
06:59:52 <oerjan> "Probabilistic arguments give exactly zero for the chance that the sequence of integers starting at a given number n contains no prime, so a home prime should exist for every positive integer. "
07:00:00 <oerjan> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HomePrime.html
07:00:13 <oerjan> (that's not a proof, of course, just a good hint)
07:02:19 <oerjan> proving that is probably a hard problem.
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07:36:50 <newsham> http://pastebin.com/QTf1EWuc
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07:55:53 <newsham> anyone wanna put my bf impl on the wiki?
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08:05:02 <zzo38> newsham: Can you put it by yourself?
08:06:40 <zzo38> I remember my grandfather once threatened to call the President and tell him to remove the word "I don't want" from the dictionary (this happened many years ago). This is despite that we live in Canada.
08:07:06 <shachaf> What did the President of Canada say?
08:08:11 <zzo38> He did not actually do that; he only threatened to do so.
08:10:04 <gamemanj> The word "I don't want"? That would've failed even had there been a President of Canada...
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08:10:24 <gamemanj> ...even if they were willing to remove words from dictionaries.
08:11:16 <zzo38> Yes, I know, there are so many things wrong with that.
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08:11:55 <shachaf> Perhaps your grandfather uses 96-bit words.
08:12:20 <gamemanj> Sounds like a good word for if you're playing Countdown, or Scrabble.
08:14:02 <Sgeo> PSA: Ending the world is usually not a good idea.
08:14:15 <zzo38> And of course removing words from dictionaries won't generally stop people from using them anyways.
08:15:04 * Sgeo was referring to events IRL during the Cold War actually
08:15:26 <Sgeo> Although I guess saying the literal world is a bit poetic, just civilization
08:16:39 <gamemanj> Especially Scrabble, because although I'm not sure what you'd represent the spaces and apostrophe as, it's made of 3 component words, so if you managed to manuver the letter-tree so that you could insert "I", "don't" and "want" in the right positions, then add whatever you'd be using as spaces in-between for lots of points on the massive mega-word...
08:17:01 <Sgeo> Relatedly, happy Stanislav Petrov day!
08:17:42 <gamemanj> Ending the world is the kind of thing that I think someone had to say "What could possibly go wrong?" in order to get even close to performing.
08:20:29 <Sgeo> What could possibly go wrong with orders to retaliate if a new satellite system registers an attack?
08:21:05 <gamemanj> A likely not-completely-tested one at that, I presume?
08:21:49 <Sgeo> How does anyone completely test anything?
08:22:03 <gamemanj> Via actual experience, I suppose?
08:23:34 <Sgeo> There can always be edge cases, like sunlight reflecting off of clouds in a certain way
08:23:51 <gamemanj> In the end, relying on anything except a mass dropout of everything in a certain area (and even then, if they have a power failure...) for information on if you've been hit or are going to be hit is a quick way to make a complete mess.
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11:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44398 * CosmoConsole * (+5187) Created page with "'''Nyarlathotep''' (named after a deity in the Cthulhu Mythos) is a esoteric language created by [[User:CosmoConsole]] in 2015, and has received a large amount of inspiration ..."
11:23:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44399&oldid=44395 * CosmoConsole * (+19) /* N */ [[Nyarlathotep]]
11:23:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44400&oldid=44398 * CosmoConsole * (+9) /* External resources */ fixed link
11:30:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44401&oldid=44400 * CosmoConsole * (+4) /* External resources */ clarify python version
11:33:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:CosmoConsole]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44402&oldid=40731 * CosmoConsole * (+69)
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11:46:34 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/meIKvBa what's happening here?
12:06:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44403&oldid=44401 * CosmoConsole * (+0) fixed a small mistake
12:08:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44404&oldid=44403 * CosmoConsole * (+12) /* Operation */ clarified the operation of C when reaching end of memory
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14:50:30 <newsham> zzo38: i dont have wiki skills.. is there an esolang for posting to wiki?
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17:05:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm having fun running a fuzzer on cfunge, lets see what it comes up with
17:06:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, didn't you find some bug in cfunge a few months ago that I never got around to looking at properly?
17:07:03 <Vorpal> Can't find the IRC log any more
17:09:32 <fizzie> That rings a bell, but only faintly.
17:11:03 <fizzie> Grepping, the one recent thing I can find is that I was trying to use cfunge <(echo ...) to test a oneliner, and it went to a busyloop somewhere.
17:11:17 <ais523> huh, Debian stable just had an update for linux-libc-dev but not the matching linux-libc package
17:11:21 <fizzie> (echo ... > tmp.bef; cfunge tmp.bef) worked fine.
17:11:23 <ais523> I wonder what /that's/ about
17:11:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, the fuzzer is obviously mostly finding "hangs" due to programs running into infinite loops
17:11:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, considering how to deal with this hm
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17:11:59 <ais523> oh, I see, it's the #defines that the kernel exposes to userspace
17:12:04 <ais523> so there is no matching non-dev package
17:12:09 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Grepping, the one recent thing I can find is that I was trying to use cfunge <(echo ...) to test a oneliner, and it went to a busyloop somewhere.<-- well that doesn't surprise me
17:12:26 <ais523> but I find it hard to see how a security bug in those wouldn't require a rebuild of every other package that referenced the buggy setting
17:12:27 <Vorpal> Because \r\n are annoying to deal with across fread() boundaries
17:12:46 <ais523> perhaps a setting requesting extra security was accidentally defined to 0 rather than what it should have been, but no Debian packages used it
17:12:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, failing instead of getting stuck would still be better.
17:13:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would have assumed it would do that yes
17:13:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder why it gets stuck
17:13:36 <Vorpal> Kind of hard to debug that one via gdb...
17:13:49 <fizzie> I assume it would do the same for, say, a named pipe.
17:14:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I find it unlikely that mmap() would get stuck though instead of returning an error
17:14:53 <Vorpal> addr = mmap(NULL, len, PROT_READ, MAP_PRIVATE, fd, 0);
17:14:53 <Vorpal> if (FUNGE_UNLIKELY(addr == MAP_FAILED)) {
17:14:53 <Vorpal> diag_error_format("mmap() on file \"%s\" failed: %s", filename, strerror(errno));
17:15:52 <Vorpal> int-e, tabs for indenting is great, that way you can set the tab stop to whatever you prefer and it still looks good
17:16:01 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/tabs.png
17:16:16 <fizzie> Incidentally, I'm just filling form 306, titled "Application for pre-examination and permission to publish the dissertation".
17:16:36 <Vorpal> int-e, well that is your client, not my fault. I use hexchat and it renders it as a space
17:16:45 <Vorpal> so it looks under-indented but still readable
17:17:15 <Vorpal> (And no I don't use tabs to adjust continued lines to the preceding line, *that* would break if you change tab width)
17:18:22 <Vorpal> current policy: frequency should be within 1.60 GHz and 3.70 GHz.
17:18:22 <Vorpal> The governor "performance" may decide which speed to use
17:18:22 <Vorpal> current CPU frequency is 3.58 GHz.
17:18:41 <Vorpal> Shouldn't performance ensure it is 3.7 all the time?
17:18:52 <fizzie> I think the 3.7 GHz number counts the "turbo boost" stuff.
17:19:04 <fizzie> Like, absolute maximum for a single core, not the "normal 100%" thing.
17:19:10 <Vorpal> model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2500 CPU @ 3.30GHz
17:20:33 <fizzie> "cpufreq stats: 3.40 GHz:4.86%, 3.40 GHz:0.00%, 3.20 GHz:0.44%, ..." hrm
17:20:45 <fizzie> Wonder what that second, never-used 3.40 GHz speed is.
17:21:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, where did you find that line?
17:21:20 <fizzie> The "cpufreq-info" tool printed it out.
17:21:21 <ais523> hmm, I find this bug report strangely amusing: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=522773
17:21:26 <ais523> (b_jonas in particular might like it)
17:21:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44405&oldid=44141 * 72.235.201.146 * (+125) /* Normal implementations */ add msp430 interpreter
17:21:51 <ais523> pity it's unresolved, though
17:21:51 <Vorpal> ais523, I find the debian bug tracker obtuse. Hard to see the status of a bug.
17:21:57 <ais523> Vorpal: open, in this case
17:22:01 <Vorpal> ais523, where does it say that
17:22:02 <ais523> but it's more the bug itself, rather than its resolution
17:22:06 <fizzie> Could be the statistics collection is a new thing and/or needs to be enabled somehow. Although I don't recall doing anything for it.
17:22:13 <ais523> Vorpal: it doesn't mention it being closed anywhere
17:22:19 <ais523> that I noticed, at least
17:22:47 <Vorpal> ais523, right, but even bugzilla is more readable than debian's system :P
17:22:51 <Vorpal> And bugzilla is terrible
17:23:17 <fizzie> Nice graphviz plot in the upper-right corner, though.
17:23:26 <fizzie> Lots of nodes titled "some versions".
17:24:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can read the graph? it is tiny for me
17:29:29 <fizzie> I'm not sure what it's trying to illustrate, but I like graphs no matter what.
17:32:54 <int-e> fizzie: I think it shows the affected package versions, color-coded; red = affected, green = fixed.
17:34:11 <int-e> hard to find good examples though... https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=522759 has no forks :/
17:34:55 <int-e> there is no linear versioning; there are forks because there are three (I think?) debian distibutions at any point in time.
17:35:25 <int-e> note, I don't know, I'm making an informed (hopefully) guess here.
17:35:34 <fizzie> In all (two) graphs I've seen so far, "some versions" could have been an implied by an edge.
17:36:20 <fizzie> Oh, there's the "don't collapse" mode.
17:36:21 <int-e> well, somebody has to tag version+bug pairs, I suppose...
17:36:44 <int-e> anyway, perhaps a good point to stop guessing :)
17:37:42 <fizzie> I tried to turn off "ignore boring" and "collapse" for the first graph, and got a broken image.
17:38:00 <fizzie> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/version.cgi?found=linux-2.6%2F2.6.29-2;found=linux-2.6%2F3.2~rc7-1~experimental.1;ignore_boring=0;package=linux-libc-dev;absolute=0;info=1;format=png;height=;width=;collapse=1 nice and wide
17:38:52 <fizzie> That's the "boring", I think.
17:39:24 <int-e> which means "unknown"?
17:42:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, so far the tool has found no crashes, that is pretty nice
17:42:40 <int-e> https://wiki.debian.org/HowtoUseBTS explains some of it
17:48:35 <zzo38> Do you know how to make proxy working with Apache? I always get error message, the stuff they mention on their IRC doesn't work either
17:50:20 <zzo38> The configuration is set up like http://sprunge.us/EEYY (the "example.org" and "stuff.example.org" and "localhost:9999" are all just for testing and will be changed later, but "127.0.0.50" is going to remain the same; also I add the ProxyPassReverse which is not listed in that old version of the file)
17:50:42 <fizzie> I used to have one Apache "reverse-proxy" configuration, but I don't think I have that configuration saved anywhere.
17:52:04 <zzo38> Do you know how to get it to work though?
17:52:32 <fizzie> Not really. I think I got it working by following the instructions, but this was some years ago.
17:53:32 <zzo38> Apache is the server I already have set up for the main HTTP server, so I try to use the same one as the proxy
17:56:08 <fizzie> In my configuration, I just had the reverse-proxy ProxyPass part, because I wasn't trying to connect to the target via another proxy.
17:56:35 <zzo38> I did get this error message in the log file: [error] proxy: ap_get_scoreboard_lb(1) failed in child 10872 for worker proxy:reverse
17:59:30 <int-e> google finds https://serverfault.com/questions/454421/apache-httpd-error-proxy-ap-get-scoreboard-lb-with-proxypass which suggests to stop and start apache (rather than reloading or restarting)...
17:59:49 <zzo38> OK I will try that
18:00:18 <int-e> (I have not looked at the configuration, but it sounds like a harmless and at the same time obscure thing to try)
18:00:30 * int-e googled the error message
18:01:34 <zzo38> That error message is gone, but I still get a 500 error and the same other logged errors as before, just not the scoreboard error
18:01:51 <zzo38> The error is: [warn] proxy: No protocol handler was valid for the URL /what. If you are using a DSO version of mod_proxy, make sure the proxy submodules are included in the configuration using LoadModule.
18:02:14 <zzo38> I did load both mod_proxy and mod_proxy_http and checked it with apachectl -M
18:04:22 <int-e> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23931987/apache-proxy-no-protocol-handler-was-valid ... LoadModule ssl_module modules/mod_ssl.so
18:04:49 <int-e> (I guess that otherwise it fails to speak https)
18:05:19 <zzo38> I do not need it to speak https
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18:06:11 <zzo38> I want it to just send a request like "GET https://example.org/what HTTP/1.1" to localhost:9999
18:06:23 -!- doesthiswork1 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:06:25 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
18:06:44 <zzo38> (Implementing SSL on the next proxy in line instead)
18:08:27 -!- doesthiswork1 has joined.
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18:17:03 <fizzie> Bah, the libreoffice 5.something I have here at home does a much worse job of editing-and-saving this .doc file than the libreoffice 4.something I had at work.
18:20:34 <zzo38> Then install the other version as well (if it is possible to install both)
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18:51:08 <fizzie> This sending of pieces of paper around is totally silly.
18:51:31 <fizzie> They want two printed copies of the thesis manuscript along with the application form.
18:51:44 <puckipedia> best idea ever: an OS that boots two kernels, and every time you start a process, it randomly chooses one of the kernels to run it on
18:51:46 <nortti> \oren\: Id spel it "evribudi"
18:52:02 <\oren\> university policies are made by the oldest, most tenuruous professors
18:52:10 <ais523> also does it have to be properly bound? or is a temporary binding enough?
18:52:11 <shachaf> ais523: Part of the same conspiracy which is holding back the publication of your thesis, presumably.
18:52:46 <ais523> shachaf: at least my university now has a (very sensible) rule that if the thesis examiner and student agree, you can send the corrected version of a thesis by email rather than needing to send a printed copy
18:52:50 <ais523> and then not get it printed until it's been approved
18:52:56 <\oren\> nortti: then how would you spell 'it'?
18:53:00 <fizzie> ais523: Well, the university. And it's supposed to be perforated and in a plastic folder, but you're expressly forbidden to go through the actual get-a-printed-copy process at this stage.
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18:53:07 <shachaf> But your thesis has been approved, right?
18:53:14 <shachaf> But we still can't read a copy.
18:53:22 <ais523> I can link you to the page that says you can't read a copy, if you like
18:53:46 <\oren\> nortti: that is bad. the vowel in 'it' and the vowels at the end of 'every' are very sifferent
18:53:48 <fizzie> ais523: Come to think of it, I assume you could get it properly printed, if you want to do it at your own expense.
18:53:55 <ais523> shachaf: here: http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/6120/
18:54:20 <nortti> \oren\: I hear them as the same, while the one in "see" and end of "every" as very different :/
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18:54:42 <ais523> fizzie: I could; I've already done that for the "official" versions, and both the University and bookbinder were quite clear that I was allowed to print as many copies as I like so long as I paid for them
18:54:52 <ais523> I had to pay for the two official copies too
18:54:56 <\oren\> nortti: well the good thing sabout my system is you can spell wrods according to your own accent
18:55:33 <nortti> that's what I was meaning
18:55:59 <fizzie> ais523: Ah. At our university, the university pays for up to 500 EUR of printing costs, as long as the dissertation is published in the university's series.
18:56:38 <fizzie> And the minimum number of copies is 30.
18:56:44 <\oren\> fizzie: at UofT I got 1000 free printing pages every year as part of my tuition
18:57:13 <int-e> hmm, 1000 pages isn't so much
18:57:41 <\oren\> there were no rule as to "no printing pages entirely black[C"
18:57:42 <fizzie> 30 copies of my thesis would currently require 6420 pages.
18:57:47 <nortti> \oren\: I personally think you should have a way to mark scwas, like in the beginning of "about". in a spelling system me and heddwch developed, we used 'y' for iy
18:58:18 <ais523> I've seen phonetic spellings that used English letters entirely except they used ə for schwa
18:58:19 <fizzie> \oren\: Is this, like, properly-bound-in-a-book pages, or just, you know, printer printing?
18:58:36 <\oren\> nortti: I just use whatever the vowle would be if it weren't reduced
18:58:53 <ais523> \oren\: that's hard to tell phonetically, though
18:59:12 <nortti> \oren\: but don't you have special forms for [ər], 'R'?
18:59:16 <\oren\> to me the first vowel in 'about' is u as in 'but'
18:59:25 <Vorpal> <fizzie> ais523: Well, the university. And it's supposed to be perforated and in a plastic folder, but you're expressly forbidden to go through the actual get-a-printed-copy process at this stage.
18:59:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, this sounds stupidly complicated?
18:59:42 <\oren\> because those are reduced in my accent to sylabic R
18:59:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, when I did my bachelor thesis it was all digital.
19:00:01 <\oren\> as in 'butter' -> butR
19:00:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, no paper copy anywhere along the line
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19:00:43 <\oren\> fizzie: it was printing on up to a page size of twice a letter-page
19:00:49 <Vorpal> Maybe it is different for master theses?
19:01:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: From what I've heard informally, at least some of the Doctoral Programme Committees no longer even look at the paper copies. I think the two print copies are those that will be sent to the pre-examiners, though. Not that I'm so sure they want the paper copies either.
19:01:22 <ais523> fizzie: the originally marked (i.e. before editing) copies of my PhD thesis had to be paper, and they were bound in a special "temporary binding" way designed for the process which is pretty cheap
19:01:47 <fizzie> ais523: I think that's approximately equivalent to our "put it in a plastic folder" rule.
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19:02:10 <ais523> fizzie: well temporary bindings are quite strong, you could probably rip the pages out if you tried hard but they're unlikely to fall out by accident
19:02:11 <shachaf> ais523: If I email them to ask for an early copy do you think they would oblige?
19:02:12 <ais523> unlike plastic folders
19:02:28 <ais523> shachaf: I'm guessing no, but I doubt it would hurt
19:02:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I thought you were already working at google in UK?
19:02:57 <\oren\> ais523> why not use ə? <- because ə isn't on a normal keyboard
19:03:14 <ais523> are you calling my keyboard abnormal?
19:03:24 <gamemanj> ais523-lang: Impossible to use
19:03:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: I didn't do a bachelor's (I squeaked by just before they modernized our programs to involve one; before, it was straight-to-master) but I think my master's thesis involved a printout for examination. And I got 20 copies bound; there's a particular binding specifically for this kind of theses ("diplomityö").
19:03:40 <ais523> I've made tons of languages
19:03:50 <ais523> hmm, I haven't made any natural languages yet, though
19:03:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: And yes, you thought correctly.
19:03:54 <\oren\> one that uses all these crazy letter you can apparently type
19:03:56 <ais523> OK, what about this: esoteric conlang, that has zero words
19:04:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why messing around with plastic folders now then?
19:04:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, I mean, as opposed to what? Leaving my PhD unfinished?
19:04:33 <ais523> \oren\: it's a completely stock UK 101 (103?) key laptop keyboard, the only change I made was to rebind one of the keys
19:05:14 <ais523> shachaf: I guess you at least get to read the abstract
19:05:26 <Vorpal> ais523, I doubt any laptop keyboard is 101 or 103 keys, there are always strange keys not found on classic keyboards
19:05:37 <ais523> I thought Fn was the main one
19:06:00 <shachaf> ais523: By the way, did you see my question about substructural types the other day?
19:06:02 <Vorpal> ais523, Mine has browser back/fwd for example, and fn. Also no right windows key
19:06:08 <shachaf> 19:03 <shachaf> it's interesting that in BCKW, CKW correspond to the three types of structure people talk about in substructural type systems
19:06:10 <ais523> the only weird key placement I can see here is that for some reason, pause/sysrq is fn-shift
19:06:11 <fizzie> I did get some ex-colleagues at the university to do the physical printing, at least, so I don't have to ship the printouts from UK to Finland.
19:06:14 <shachaf> 19:04 <shachaf> what sort of substructural type system has reordering, discarding, and duplication, but not composition?
19:06:17 <shachaf> 19:04 <shachaf> is it really boring?
19:06:18 <ais523> sysrq is on prtsc as usual
19:06:22 <ais523> shachaf: I didn't see it first time
19:06:38 <shachaf> Since you're an expert in substructural types and all.
19:06:43 <ais523> shachaf: composition corresponds to the Application rule of first-order logic, right?
19:06:52 <Vorpal> ais523, my desktop keyboard also lacks a right windows key. Even though it is a microsoft keyboard. heh
19:06:52 <\oren\> my prtsc is between alt and ctrl
19:07:03 <ais523> so there's no way to eliminate lambdas at this point, so Abstraction is pointless
19:07:07 <Vorpal> ais523, it has a fn too, between altgr and right ctrl
19:07:12 <\oren\> where the right windows key should be
19:07:21 <ais523> and there's no point in forming tuples because there's no way to destructure them
19:07:22 <fizzie> Although it seems that I might have to send the application form, because apparently it loses the magical powers of binding if it goes through a scan-and-print step.
19:07:25 <Vorpal> ais523, and "menu" is on fn-right shift
19:07:26 <fizzie> At least it's not signed in blood.
19:07:29 <ais523> thus everything is happening on the left of the turnstile
19:07:30 <Vorpal> ais523, which is super-weird
19:07:49 <shachaf> What's the Application rule?
19:07:53 <ais523> what you end up with is a definition of a set, I think
19:08:04 <fizzie> I haven't asked if they'd accept a faxed copy, because (AIUI) fax machines often preserve the magic.
19:08:21 <\oren\> My keyboard does have an excellent "lock" button (trust a business laptop to have a builtin boss key)
19:08:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, go ask them that ;P
19:08:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, then find a fax machine
19:08:46 <ais523> Application rule derives, from (G |- M : t' -> t) and (D |- N : t'), (G,D |- MN : t)
19:08:48 <\oren\> it has also a ""new web browser window key
19:09:04 <ais523> it normally ends up corresponding to categorical composition, if you use a category for your semantics (most people do)
19:09:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: We've got a fax-sending service in the intranet, but maybe that would make the spirits angry.
19:09:30 <ais523> but you have to use the closed structure to make t' point in the opposite direction
19:09:33 <shachaf> I guess you represent t' as 1 -> t' or something like that?
19:09:44 <ais523> shachaf: not in first-order logic, you don't
19:09:55 <shachaf> In the category you use for your semantics.
19:10:04 <ais523> the normal categorical method is to represent the entire judgements as G -> (t' -> t), D -> t'
19:10:31 <ais523> bleh, I wish I could link to my thesis where all this is explained
19:10:36 <shachaf> I guess I can read http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/5741/1/Smith15PhD.pdf until your thesis comes out.
19:10:38 <ais523> (except with G and D in Greek)
19:10:58 <ais523> haha, that's a thesis by someone else called Smith, I take it?
19:11:04 <ais523> also it has way too many pages
19:11:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: I haven't looked at it, I just saw some mention somewhere that you can just "go/fax" if you have to communicate to someone stuck in the past.
19:11:24 <fizzie> There was also something a bit more elaborate if you need to "regularly receive faxes".
19:11:35 <ais523> fizzie: clearly I have Feather on my mind, I thought that communicating with someone stuck in the past might change history
19:12:54 <ais523> (although in Feather, changing history can change the present, and in fact probably /should/ or else you'll get into a time loop)
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19:14:22 <fizzie> Is Feather any closer to actually existing than it has used to be?
19:14:48 <ais523> I've realised that The Underlambda Project might inadvertently remove one of the many obstacles to its existence
19:15:00 <tswett> Tens of billions of people are stuck in the past.
19:15:36 <ais523> whoever put that {{stub}} on the Esolang article about Feather is a genius, btw
19:15:37 <tswett> Sir Thomas More, for example.
19:15:57 <tswett> He is currently in the past, with no way of getting to the present.
19:16:24 <fizzie> I think it's up to a hundred billion.
19:18:59 <fizzie> Let's help him! Quick, to the fax machine!
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19:26:25 <shachaf> ais523: I sent them an email.
19:26:52 <ais523> I'm curious to know what their answer (if any) will be
19:27:05 <ais523> although given that it's Saturday, we'll have to wait a few days because I seriously doubt they reply to emails on weekends
19:28:22 <shachaf> Is there a reason you can't publish a copy directly, by the way?
19:28:53 <b_jonas> wait, you're sending messages to the past?
19:28:55 <ais523> and so far, haven't done so in case I get into trouble
19:29:37 <b_jonas> can you send one to Ben Franklin please/
19:29:48 <ais523> the paper copies don't seem to be publicly available either (although the reason for that might be that /both/ of them are currently undergoing refurbishment)
19:30:23 <ais523> b_jonas: the hard part is, that to prevent terribly bad things happening a message sent to the past has to have no visible effects until to just before you choose to send the message, at which point something happens to stop you sending the message
19:30:42 <ais523> this is quite hard to achieve, and one of the currently unsolved problems blocking Feather from existing
19:33:38 <Vorpal> ais523, at that point, it appears you can't use the "sending message to past" for anything useful?
19:34:18 <ais523> Vorpal: well, you can, say, check to see if an object has a method, if it doesn't, you can retroactively add it
19:34:35 <ais523> it won't make any visible effects to the past because as the object didn't have the method, clearly nothing called it
19:34:48 <ais523> but your check will see that the method is already there
19:37:08 * shachaf . o O ("What's expected of us" by Ted Chiang in 2005-07-07 at <http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7047/full/436150a.html>)
19:37:23 <shachaf> ski: did i do it right twh
19:43:35 <Taneb> ais523, b_jonas what were the rules to that tiny Magic variant you were talking about the other day?
19:43:53 <ais523> Taneb: there were actually two such variants
19:44:26 <ais523> the one I suggested was: you have three cards in your library (Vintage banlist, no restricted list), you don't lose for drawing from an empty library, otherwise normal Magic rules
19:44:55 <ais523> b_jonass was: you have five cards in your library, Legacy banlist, starting hand size is 0, during mulligans you can reorder your library, otherwise normal Magic rules
19:45:16 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and default maximum hand size is still 7.
19:46:30 <ais523> right, this is starting hand size as in Vanguard
19:46:48 <ais523> b_jonas: come to think of it, we could call your format Doomsday
19:47:12 <ais523> because it's almost literally the situation you're in after resolving Doomsday (five cards of your choice in any order)
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19:48:43 <b_jonas> There's also a well-known tiny _limited_ magic variant, where in the first duels, each player starts with a single sealed booster pack that he has to shuffle to his library with ten basic lands, without looking at the cards first, then it's a single elimination tournament and the winner of the match in the first round gets to use a deck from both boosters in that match.
19:48:54 <b_jonas> I think that one is called "duel masters", but I'm not sure.
19:49:19 <shachaf> Hmm, I only ever played a one-game variant of that.
19:49:30 <ais523> b_jonas: no, duel masters is a different game Wizards makes
19:49:35 <b_jonas> ais523: that may have been what gave the original idea, I don't know
19:49:43 <ais523> there is a name for that format but I can't remember what it is
19:50:14 <int-e> shachaf: that predictor is a devious device
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19:52:23 <zzo38> I also make up a variant called the "Standard Solitaire" variant; it is a solitaire variant where the only change to the standard rules is that rule 104.2a is not applicable. Try to make up a very strange deck in order to make a more interesting kind of game with this variant; add cards that damage yourself, cards that have unusual requirements, as well as cards with effects that just let you to win the game.
19:52:32 <shachaf> We would call them "pack battles" which I guess explains why there was only one game.
19:52:50 <shachaf> Also eventually we replaced most words in the game with the word "jam".
19:53:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: comprules: not found
19:53:32 <shachaf> "jam" originally (well, in the context of Magic: The Gathering) meant "+1/+1 counter"
19:53:40 <shachaf> Later on it meant any kind of counter.
19:53:44 <b_jonas> "A player still in the game wins the game if all of that player<92>s opponents have left the game. This happens immediately and overrides all effects that would prevent that player from winning the game."
19:53:53 <shachaf> It also grew to mean "card" and "booster pack"
19:54:01 <shachaf> Giant Growth would jam up a card until end of turn.
19:54:08 <shachaf> Playing Magic: The Gathering was referred to as "jamming"
19:54:13 <ais523> do we need a comprehensive rules bot?
19:54:30 <b_jonas> ais523: there is one on the efnet/#mtgrules channel
19:54:41 <b_jonas> ais523: but we could easily teach the rules to HackEgo
19:54:41 <shachaf> I used to be in that channel.
19:54:49 <zzo38> I have recently been having problems connecting to EFnet
19:54:54 <shachaf> "Your Rules Advisor Membership is about to expire on 2015-10-12"
19:55:02 <b_jonas> ais523: there's just one problem, some rules are too long to fit in an irc line
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19:55:25 <shachaf> ais523 always leaves very abruptly.
19:55:35 <b_jonas> but we could add a `more command to HackEgo to list continuations with a second command I think
19:56:06 <shachaf> But adding it to HackEgo in the obvious way would involve making hg commits for read-only commands.
19:56:12 <shachaf> Which would be kind of annoying.
19:56:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's easy to add to HackEgo too, with a short script to bin
19:56:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: doesn't it have some non-version-controlled temp directory?
19:56:37 <shachaf> That survives across reboots?
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19:57:00 <shachaf> Maybe we can use one of the bugs we know of that causes that behavior.
19:57:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: that's how buubot worked too by the way, it could only store versioned data
19:57:22 <b_jonas> I still stored state in versioned data though
19:57:47 <shachaf> It would be nice to have a non-versioned directory for things like this.
19:57:56 <shachaf> Though people would probably abuse it.
19:58:59 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
19:59:13 <b_jonas> I mean, how would they abuse it more than they already abuse the versioned one?
19:59:31 <shachaf> int-e int-e int-e int-e int-e int-e int-e int-e oerjan oerjan
19:59:45 <b_jonas> um, the non-versioned dir wouldn't be in the path, so you could see if something points there
20:00:00 <int-e> shachaf: yes yes yes yes ...?!
20:00:19 <shachaf> int-e: just fitting the rhythm hth
20:00:25 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
20:00:43 <int-e> `culprits bin/culprits
20:00:44 <HackEgo> Jafet Jafet tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
20:01:31 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
20:02:08 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
20:02:25 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
20:02:27 <shachaf> lists the lists the lists the lists the lists the lists the lists the lists the wisdom wisdom
20:03:01 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull Tanea
20:03:38 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
20:04:11 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull elliott Sgeo Bike oerjan Taneb ais523 ais523 elliott oerjan elliott FreeFull oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
20:04:23 <fizzie> shachaf: The existing bin/paste already kind of makes commits for "read-only" commands.
20:04:37 <FireFly> Is the part about retroactively preventing it from evolving a reference to that one esolang that shouldn't be named?
20:04:45 <shachaf> fizzie: But at least when you use it you're expecting that to happen.
20:05:02 <shachaf> fizzie: When I upload some text to a paste site, I also expect to be modifying that site.
20:05:04 <HackEgo> ⌨/You are probably using one right now!
20:05:10 <Vorpal> FireFly, you mean Feather? Ais talked about it himself today
20:05:57 <b_jonas> isn't it Brainfuck that we want to retroactively cause not to be evolved?
20:06:17 <int-e> just its derivatives
20:06:18 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I don't mind brainfuck as much as all the clones
20:06:32 <Vorpal> Most of them are just boring
20:06:47 <Vorpal> That is the classical pointless one
20:07:08 <b_jonas> Vorpal: well sure, and I don't mind the _first_ stem of weed in my garden as much as all the rest it spawns, but that's where you have to start extermination
20:07:19 <Vorpal> bitfuck looks kind of interesting at first, until you realise there is a simple recipe for translating any brainfuck program into a bitfuck one
20:07:28 <int-e> of course ook's creator has redeemed himself
20:07:33 <b_jonas> what? no! Ook! is the best BF clone, one of the very few non-pointless ones
20:07:51 <int-e> Vorpal: DMM is also the creator of Piet
20:08:01 <b_jonas> int-e: and of Chef, more usefully
20:08:20 <Vorpal> b_jonas, really? It is just plain boring. And no, the Discworld reference doesn't make it any better
20:09:26 <int-e> Ok, points... It does feature periods and exclamation marks.
20:09:39 <int-e> And question marks I guess.
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20:50:45 <Vorpal> I'm currently trying to understand this program the fuzzer generated: &ITR"\ <80><FF><A8><FF>$59kbfkkk?^@kkk^MQ( o
20:50:59 <Vorpal> It sometimes crashes, sometimes hangs
20:51:16 <Vorpal> Note that <80> and so on are non-printable
20:51:32 <Vorpal> (this is how less displays it)
20:52:23 <Vorpal> I'm utterly confused how it even managed to get into the k code. It looks to me as if & and o should both just reverse... (Since o is disabled for safety reasons)
20:54:11 <Vorpal> Oh wait that is ^M, of course...
20:56:40 <Vorpal> Well that program is pure evil...
20:59:57 <ais523> Vorpal: run it through cat -v
21:00:02 <ais523> and fuzzing programs tend to be
21:00:09 <ais523> I'm amused that that fuzzer uses so many k's
21:01:04 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm ... not sure I will even try to fix that. The k code is way too complicated... Especially the handling of nested k
21:01:54 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't even understand the specifics of how it crashes, but it seems related to ? generating a specific set of < and > but never any ^ and v presumably
21:02:23 <ais523> Vorpal: what about using a determinstic RNG seed?
21:02:27 <Vorpal> I should maybe patch ? to be deterministic yeah
21:02:32 <ais523> also, that program seems to be a one-liner
21:02:39 <ais523> so ^ and v would just loop back round to the ?
21:02:42 <Vorpal> ais523, no it isn't because of the embedded ^M
21:02:48 <Vorpal> ais523, which is a CR iirc
21:02:52 <ais523> there's still nothing in the column containing the ?
21:03:06 <Vorpal> ais523, also k on a movement doesn't apply that on itself possibly
21:03:57 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:05:20 <Vorpal> ais523, I think it possibly applies at some nesting of k or other, but not at the top k nor ? itself
21:05:42 <Vorpal> ais523, still I apparently got an stack overflow of nested k calls
21:10:13 <ais523> Vorpal: what happens with a program that's just a single k?
21:10:36 <ais523> AFAICT the /intended/ behaviour there is a stack overflow
21:11:08 -!- Thisbe has quit (Quit: Thisbe).
21:11:24 <Vorpal> ais523, since that pops 0 iterations from the stack and runs k zero times
21:12:06 <ais523> you'd somehow need an infinite number of non-zeroes on the stack
21:12:23 <Vorpal> with nested k it is a bit easier
21:12:39 <Vorpal> Well y will put *something* on the stack certainly
21:12:51 <Vorpal> But I think it will just end up running y a lot
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21:13:10 <ais523> I'm trying to work out if you get a self-sustaining loop of nested k
21:13:22 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/funge98: not found
21:13:35 <HackEgo> Unsupported instruction 'y' (0x79) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'k' (0x6b) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'k' (0x6b) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction '' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'y' (0x79) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'k' (0x6b) (may
21:13:45 <ais523> huh, it put an EOF on the playfield
21:13:45 <Vorpal> ais523, I think it involves ? to move the IP around between runs alas
21:14:08 <ais523> Vorpal: the ? is redirecting the k into itself, I bet
21:14:20 <ais523> think about a program along the lines of k^ (in a oneliner)
21:14:35 <ais523> (I don't bet very much because randomly generated Befunge is hard to mentally parse)
21:15:07 <Vorpal> ais523, you need to get ? to move it to a k for the next loop one level up
21:15:28 <Vorpal> So you need at least 3 k to start with
21:15:40 <Vorpal> this code is super gnarly
21:15:57 <Vorpal> Hm that is an English word isn't it? The spell check disagrees
21:16:32 <ais523> Vorpal: it's pretty colloquial
21:16:56 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't turn up in the spellchecker's data sources
21:17:02 <ais523> which are maybe more formal
21:18:07 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I think only cfunge implements nested k at all. Deewiant basically said "**** this" and ignored it, since the standard says nothing about it, and there is no obvious "good" way to handle it
21:18:35 <ais523> well yes, it's clearly ridiculous :-)
21:18:50 <ais523> Underload has something similar, but it's uncontroversial that if you chain it indefinitely you get a stack overflow
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21:19:53 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/ul: not found
21:20:09 <ais523> maybe derlo has higher limits
21:20:21 <ais523> or maybe it just doesn't print error messages, that seems more likely
21:21:01 <ais523> ugh, this file has troll indentation
21:22:15 <ais523> `` echo (:*:^):^ | ibin/underload -a -d3
21:22:16 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `:*:^' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo (:*:^):^ | ibin/underload -a -d3 '
21:22:23 <ais523> `` echo '(:*:^):^' | ibin/underload -a -d3
21:22:24 <HackEgo> Attempt to execute unknown command 45
21:22:37 <ais523> `` echo '(:*:^):^' | ibin/underload -a -d3 /dev/stdin
21:22:38 <HackEgo> Attempt to execute unknown command 45
21:22:45 <ais523> `` echo '(:*:^):^' | ibin/underload -o -d3 /dev/stdin
21:22:46 <HackEgo> Attempt to execute unknown command 45
21:23:08 <ais523> `` echo '(Hello, world!)S' | ibin/underload -o -d3 /dev/stdin
21:23:09 <HackEgo> Attempt to execute unknown command 45
21:23:25 <ais523> but there isn't a capital E in the program
21:25:42 <Vorpal> ais523, hm even with a fixed srandom() it appears there is still some variability in the program
21:25:54 <Vorpal> Since the fuzzer reports it
21:26:01 <Vorpal> (it is an fuzzer that instruments the program)
21:26:09 <Vorpal> (for more educated guesses)
21:26:24 <ais523> american fuzzy lop, presumably?
21:26:27 <ais523> no wonder there are so many k
21:26:53 <ais523> no, but I've read about it
21:27:00 <ais523> including the mathematical basis behind how it works
21:27:07 <Vorpal> ais523, it actually hasn't found any crashes yet, I only got that crash when investigating a hang and it crashed one of the times I ran it
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21:28:54 <Vorpal> Confusing #ifdef for arc4random overriding it
21:33:29 <lambdabot> *** "gnarly" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:33:29 <lambdabot> adj 1: used of old persons or old trees; covered with knobs or
21:33:29 <lambdabot> knots; "gnarled and knotted hands"; "a knobbed stick"
21:33:29 <lambdabot> [syn: {gnarled}, {gnarly}, {knotted}, {knotty},
21:34:13 <Vorpal> that is what the k code is
21:34:25 <fizzie> A person and/or a tree.
21:34:43 <fizzie> I guess most code is a (parse) tree.
21:34:45 <ais523> it's normally used as a metaphor, I think
21:35:00 <Vorpal> Really? Still variable? How?
21:35:11 <Vorpal> Well, less than before at least
21:35:22 <Vorpal> I guess there could be some time thingy
21:37:06 <fizzie> ais523: The fungot ^ul time limits are in terms of Underload "operations", so you can have some pretty slow programs, e.g. if you push two strings so that the stack is almost to the limit, and then loop ~.
21:37:06 <fungot> fizzie: just a minor reference here. on the flip side of the pond fnord hence the name monk fish) than the professional records? fnord fnord 03:38, 18 may 2006 ( utc
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21:37:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp* youtube
21:37:51 <fizzie> You can tell from the timestamp.
21:41:12 <Vorpal> ais523, afl is particularly fond of loading HRTI for some odd reason
21:41:59 <Vorpal> (I gave all the fingerprints loading as input, since finding valid fingerprints might be hard)
21:42:25 <Vorpal> hm not sure how that hangs
21:42:38 <Vorpal> and N will of course reflect
21:42:45 <ais523> I was going to ask, what does N do?
21:42:47 <Vorpal> I should probably disable t
21:42:55 <Vorpal> ais523, nothing in HRTI it appears
21:44:04 <ais523> my head is hurting trying to figure out what yyyyyy does
21:44:09 <ais523> apart from push a bunch of garbage to the stack
21:49:00 <Vorpal> ais523, well that is what it does, though not all of it, since y is also pick
21:49:44 <Vorpal> Yeah I'm running non-concurrent now, since I got way too many "unique" t related hangs that weren't really unique from my point of view
21:50:52 <Vorpal> ais523, I patched in a instruction count limit, and "find next instruction" cycle limit (code doing p at super large coordinates then cfunge iterating forever to get to that point) and so on
21:51:02 <Vorpal> since those hangs are just the program doing stupid stuff
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21:51:19 <Vorpal> I guess that is the downside, finding *interesting* hangs is hard when fuzzing an interpreter
21:52:33 <Vorpal> ais523, it is not like I haven't fuzz tested before though, so some of that stuff existed, but then I did it with alarm(), but that seems less compatible with afl to some extent
21:53:08 <Vorpal> And that fuzzing was just generating random programs and feeding it into cfunge
21:54:22 <Vorpal> ais523, any idea how to tunnel SSH through a proxy that fakes SSL cert btw?
21:54:33 <Vorpal> as in, it doesn't just pass HTTPS through
21:54:41 <ais523> Vorpal: what sort of proxy? http only?
21:54:47 <Vorpal> ais523, http and https yes
21:54:52 <Vorpal> but the HTTPS one MITMs
21:55:06 <ais523> I guess you use a standard ssh-over-http, then (not sure where you get those from)
21:55:18 <ais523> the s in the https will just make things awkward because the mitmness will mean the certs won't verify
21:56:12 <Vorpal> ais523, I used to ssh over 443 because it didn't MITM in the past and thus anything on 443 just went through
21:56:29 <Vorpal> But now I need to change tactic
21:56:59 <ais523> I have an acquaintance in another channel who keeps telling people to tunnel over DNS
21:57:04 <ais523> but while possible, that's really slow
21:57:44 <Vorpal> ais523, also wouldn't it saturate the DNS caches?
21:58:06 <Vorpal> I assume you have a special authorative DNS server that listens for requests and returns other ones
21:58:10 <zzo38> I have also had idea before to tunnel stuff over DNS (just data though, not interactive sessions) in order to be able to use it from hotels and stuff where you can access DNS without needing an account or registration or whatever there
21:58:11 <Vorpal> Probably with short TTL
21:58:47 <ais523> Vorpal: I think you communicate one way using the exact URL being requested (that's a subdomain of a domain whose authoratitive DNS server you control)
21:58:51 <Vorpal> ais523, since I can't make direct DNS requests there, only through the DNS server DHCP provides. I could possibly tunnel over ping because that goes through unhindered
21:58:56 <ais523> and the other way using the IP addresses, TXT fields etc. being returned
21:59:03 <Vorpal> ais523, my idea was tunneling SSH over websockets somehow
21:59:13 <ais523> also tunnel over ping has almost certainly been done already
21:59:24 <Vorpal> ais523, seems even worse
22:00:31 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, figuring out a way to tunnel over http seems easier, the question is if it is compatible with running nginx
22:00:47 <Vorpal> I guess I could do it with a virtual host or something
22:00:53 <ais523> websockets is probably the sanest method, to be fair
22:01:21 <zzo38> See if the server supports using CONNECT, just make if it receive CONNECT first then it can be used like SSH after that for the current session, might be one way?
22:01:38 <Vorpal> ais523, can't find any ready-made software for it though
22:02:07 <Vorpal> zzo38, pretty sure the new one doesn't, though I could test a bit more
22:02:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:02:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, I know you can only connect to port 80 and 443 with HTTP and HTTPS respectively. You can't reach, say. a server on port 8080 on the internet
22:06:01 <Vorpal> "PSD3"4(??????kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk???????ӈ^@^H .
22:07:03 <ais523> ӈ isn't even a real command
22:07:16 <ais523> and what does 3DSP do anyway?
22:07:28 <Vorpal> ais523, vector maths iirc
22:08:23 <Vorpal> vector and matrix operations
22:09:16 <fizzie> It's a pretty strange one.
22:09:17 <Vorpal> I wonder why N from BASE hangs
22:09:30 <fizzie> Yes. Sort of very arbitrary.
22:09:52 <ais523> maybe it's to do with how I/O is connected?
22:09:57 <ais523> or maybe it's trying to print infinitely many zeroes?
22:10:29 <Vorpal> ais523, it is printing in base 1
22:10:39 <Vorpal> since ( leaves the loaded fingerprint
22:10:57 <ais523> ah, so it's printing a very large numer in unary
22:11:03 <Vorpal> cf_putchar_unlocked('0');
22:11:03 <Vorpal> cf_putchar_unlocked(' ');
22:11:15 <ais523> and that is something that's impossible to do quickly
22:11:36 <Vorpal> Well, you could perhaps use vmsplice()?
22:12:00 <Vorpal> No I don't see why that would hang
22:12:04 <ais523> huh, I learned a new syscall today
22:12:09 <Vorpal> Though the idea of k on { is annoying
22:12:11 <ais523> but it only works on pipes
22:12:25 <Vorpal> ais523, well there is splice too
22:12:53 <Vorpal> ais523, it is all going for that fabled zero-copy-IO
22:12:53 <ais523> I knew that one, though
22:13:33 <ais523> SPLICE_F_GIFT looks abusable
22:14:01 <ais523> really it should probably be specified to munmap the given pages…
22:14:22 <Vorpal> ais523, wasn't there a root exploit using vmsplice soon after it was introduced?
22:14:35 <Vorpal> Either vmsplice or splice
22:15:56 <Vorpal> ais523, here are the hangs so far http://sprunge.us/bQJU
22:16:13 <Vorpal> We can assume that ^<something> is from cat -e I think
22:16:45 <Vorpal> And some of them I don't know why they hang, possibly my iteration limit is just too close to the actual time limit
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22:19:23 <ais523> that double M-2 is confusing
22:19:35 <ais523> and that ! on its own even more so
22:19:59 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:20:09 <Vorpal> ais523, yes. I think it is just that the execution count is too close to the 20 ms limit in some cases
22:20:18 <Vorpal> execution count limit*
22:25:55 <hppavilion[1]> It's interesting that whenever I start talking, everyone goes silent and/or leaves xd
22:26:16 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: could just be timezones
22:26:47 <b_jonas> it could be just that this channel isn't very noisy anyway
22:27:16 <hppavilion[1]> Should I publish what little I have for LIME so far?
22:27:27 <b_jonas> maybe we prefer concise esolangs (like burlesque) over verbose ones (like Shakespear)
22:27:35 <hppavilion[1]> Or should I wait until I have at least one working thing before I publish to GitHub?
22:33:51 <ais523> I should push what I've done on The Underlambda Project so far somewhere public
22:33:55 <ais523> I was going to hours ago but forgot
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22:35:53 <ais523> here: darcs clone http://nethack4.org/esolangs/the-underlambda-project
22:36:01 <ais523> for anyone who wants to see how it's progressing so far
22:44:09 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think you can publish what you have so far if you want to do so
22:45:33 <zzo38> I don't know, that may be good enough so far I suppose
22:51:26 <int-e> ais523: fwiw, linux doesn't currently implement SPLICE_F_GIFT (this is documented for the page-stealing half of SPLICE_F_MOVE of the splice system call)
22:51:43 <ais523> then it doesn't matter that its semantics are insane
22:51:58 <ais523> they can always be fixed when it's implemented
22:54:02 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: a let or letrec form, some sort of numbers with built-in arithmetic and comparison primitives, possibly mutable cells or even mutable bindings (variables) created by the lambdas, some basic IO operations, a repl
22:55:23 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It's a lambda calculus playground. You kind of have to define your own numbers and arithmetic
22:56:24 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you still can do that if you want
22:56:37 <b_jonas> but it's useful to have them built-in
22:56:38 <hppavilion[1]> I can, but I kind of want to make users define their own things xD
22:57:28 <b_jonas> do you want people to even have to transform let and letrec to lambda expressions by hand?
22:57:33 <b_jonas> or will you at least add that
23:01:40 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: ok, let me ask differently. if I want a lambda calculus calculator, what extra would this give compared to any other interpreter that supports lambda expressions, such as a perl/ruby/scheme etc interpreter?
23:02:03 <b_jonas> (assume a not very old version of perl; old versions have a cripping bug if you try to use them as a lamdba calculus interpreter)
23:02:37 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]: Nothing at all. It's just a simple program for people to do lambda calculus in.
23:02:40 <Vorpal> went back to computer for a moment
23:02:45 <Vorpal> it had found one crash
23:02:46 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/FRGO
23:03:12 <Vorpal> ais523, doesn't crash the non-fuzz build though :/
23:03:31 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: does it do some sort of reference counting or garbage collection to reclaim memory consumed by functions and bindings?
23:04:14 <Vorpal> ais523, clearly related to this though:
23:04:16 <Vorpal> * In k: iteration: 1128597731 instruction: y (121)
23:04:16 <Vorpal> * In k: iteration: 1128597730 instruction: y (121)
23:04:16 <Vorpal> * In k: iteration: 1128597729 instruction: y (121)
23:04:20 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I might make it do that later, but it's a python-based system. So mostly no, unless python has some pretty advanced built-in garbage collection
23:04:52 <b_jonas> um, python does have reference counting and even advanced garbage collection
23:05:13 <b_jonas> though you can write the interpreter in a bad way that doesn't let it work of course
23:05:50 <Vorpal> will look at that tomorrow or next weekend (rather busy with real life tomorrow)
23:05:51 <b_jonas> it's tricky, you have to make sure to hold references to only those bindings that are really needed
23:06:41 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: no, it's called true, that's a built-in expression; True is an old symbol kept from compatibility back from python 1 that you shouldn't use.
23:07:34 <ais523> Vorpal: now I'm trying to figure out how to get onto the second line
23:07:51 <ais523> presumably you need the [ to run where the y is currently (using offset k(
23:08:04 <ais523> the [ can send you past the second line
23:08:17 <ais523> but you can't run along it unless it runs on the second line somehow
23:08:20 <ais523> but perhaps the second line's a red herring
23:08:38 <Vorpal> ais523, I will need to make a debug build with fuzz testing enabled to debug this tomorrow
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23:09:34 <Vorpal> ais523, well it was still there when minimizing, and the minimizing turned it from this: http://sprunge.us/PHTZ
23:09:36 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:10:44 <Vorpal> ais523, so clearly the minimising did *something*
23:12:04 <Vorpal> going to bed for real now
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23:15:06 <Vorpal> ais523, this is an ingenious case of variable behaviour though: "ITRH"4(G(
23:15:15 <Vorpal> Now going to bed for really real
23:15:28 <ais523> also that program is beautiful :-)
23:15:36 <ais523> all it's missing is another capital letter
23:16:02 <Vorpal> ais523, it uses the computed timer resolution to determine how to load the next fingerprint
23:16:15 <Vorpal> All the other variable cases also use HRTI
23:16:33 <ais523> Vorpal: I mean, so that the newly loaded fingerprint actually runs
23:17:02 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/OESc
23:18:33 <Vorpal> ais523, it probably evaluated to 1 or 2, which trigger different code paths in cfunge
23:20:25 <ais523> anyway I thought you were going to bed :-P
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23:52:27 <doesthiswork1> Right now I'm learning how to program from John Von Neumann and it is exhilarating
23:56:43 <oerjan> watch out for brain explosions
23:57:35 <boily> goerjanod evening.
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