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00:56:30 <zzo38> How difficult would it be to port xterm to a new kind of operating system if you omit some features (Unicode font support, TrueType font support, Tektronix mode, and everything having to do with widget sets)?
01:09:12 <boily> hezzo38. aren't you just porting the concept of a POSIX shell then?
01:09:50 <boily> related question: are there anything else besides Tektronix and other historical weirdities?
01:10:28 <ais523> boily: xterm is mostly a VT100 family emulator, zzo38 wasn't suggesting removing that
01:10:38 <ais523> and it doesn't actually have a shell included, it relies on other programs for that
01:12:02 <zzo38> Bitmap fonts and VT420 and Sixel graphics and so on would still be included but it doesn't necessarily use a UNIX shell or a windowing system, is what I meant
01:12:43 <ais523> zzo38: I suspect the hardest parts will be a) rendering, and b) replacing the pseudoterminal logic with something that isn't UNIX-specific
01:12:45 <boily> sorry, clusterconfusion on my part there. of course the terminal isn't the shell. the map isn't the territory...
01:13:19 <boily> why must rendering be hard?
01:13:30 <ais523> boily: xterm assumes it's rendering to X, for obvious reasons
01:13:40 <ais523> zzo38's new kind of operating system probably doesn't have an X impl
01:21:24 <boily> I wonder if porting the whole X shebang would be hard...
01:21:58 <\oren\> unicode font suppoirt is one of the easier things to have I think, beacuse on Windows for example you have to do work to not have it
01:22:33 <\oren\> most of the modern windows apis use unicode only
01:24:17 <\oren\> similar modern OS's have true typ and opentype font support for free
01:25:09 <\oren\> probably the hard parts are the stuff where xterm exposes its X window reference
01:29:11 <zzo38> Clearly you should have to omit the part where xterm exposes its X window reference
01:30:16 <zzo38> I also do not mean using an existing OS, but rather a new kind for specific uses
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01:43:37 <zzo38> In an attempt to be a simpler and faster system that uses up less power on portable computers; core software may include a Forth environment, a terminal emulator, and a SSH client (with extensions for one-time-pad and Plan9 forwarding); there can also be some optional packages to add alarm-clock, CD audio, infrared communications, photography, fax, etc (some may require specific hardware to be present)
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01:55:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MCEP]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44406 * Hppavilion1 * (+213) Created Page
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02:22:52 <zzo38> The intention is that you can access the computer even when you travel for vacation or business and/or to other country or to hotel or whatever; most computation and storage would then be done remotely by accessing your computer at home or some other server, but you can still do some operations locally too, including to program your own if needed.
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03:18:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44407&oldid=40109 * Zzo38 * (+28)
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03:44:00 <zzo38> Is there a keyboard shortcut for "close all other tabs" in Firefox?
03:44:36 <zzo38> Many things should have keyboard commands available but don't; I want to have as many things using keyboard command as will be possible to do so.
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03:45:14 <blurelIse> just drag the tab out of the window
03:46:29 <zzo38> OK, that does work, but I want to know how to do it with one or two keystrokes rather than using mouse
03:46:45 <blurelIse> (or use that sequence of kb commands, eg open in new window, alt-tab, alt-f4
03:46:52 <blurelIse> not sure if theres a open in new window
03:47:48 <zzo38> ALT+TAB and ALT+F4 are for Windows (although there are similar keycodes for the system I am using)
03:48:56 <zzo38> No they aren't, although I do know what they are on my system
03:51:36 <blurelIse> you could always program said sequence into a key command
03:52:52 <zzo38> I don't really know how, although I would think I could put something into userChrome.js to implement such a thing, although still I don't quite know how
03:54:08 <blurelIse> i couldnt explain not knowing all the details
03:54:24 <blurelIse> but its probably something one could possibly googlecate themselves on with some ease
03:55:30 <zzo38> I know I have figured out some other things by looking in the DOM Inspector and Mozilla documentation and source-codes, but some things I did not find even with Google or other search enginges
03:55:37 <blurelIse> 'g custom keyboard commands firefox
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03:56:14 <newsham> program semantics, query languages, distributed systems, etc... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Aa4PivG0g
03:59:04 <zzo38> For example I have figured out how to change the way of location bar working; now it will display percent-encodings instead of displaying Unicode characters, and if I type / in the location bar it will access the root page of the current site (it now always treats the URL entered as relative, unless it is a complete absolute URL)
04:03:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mbomb007 * New user account
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04:09:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44408&oldid=38632 * Mbomb007 * (+68) /* External resources */
04:10:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MCEP]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44409&oldid=44406 * Hppavilion1 * (-14) Not sure what I did, or even if I did anything.
04:18:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Mbomb007]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44410 * Mbomb007 * (+179) Me
04:21:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric processor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44411&oldid=35169 * Hppavilion1 * (+215) /* Ideas */ new section
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04:21:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Mbomb007]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44412&oldid=44410 * Mbomb007 * (+16) fix link
04:21:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric processor]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44413&oldid=44411 * Hppavilion1 * (+98) Signed
04:22:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric Processor/GPU]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44414 * Hppavilion1 * (+94) Created page
04:23:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Mbomb007]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44415&oldid=44412 * Mbomb007 * (-11) fix link
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04:24:51 <tswett> ais523: did someone say "tunnel over DNS"? What would the purpose of that be?
04:25:01 <tswett> Note that I'm not aware of any relevant context.
04:25:07 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]
04:25:15 <ais523> tswett: when you have to tunnel over /something/
04:25:21 <oerjan> <ais523> whoever put that {{stub}} on the Esolang article about Feather is a genius, btw <-- why thank you.
04:25:28 <ais523> DNS is one of the least likely internet-based services to be blocked
04:25:54 <ais523> and it felt like a pretty eso thing to do
04:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> I want to design an Esoteric Computer (CPU and possibly GPU)
04:26:58 <pikhq> It's actually *shockingly* practical -- a decent number of captive portal wifi hotspots will end up still allowing DNS traffic through.
04:27:42 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I recommend MMIX
04:27:46 <ais523> pikhq: presumably, to avoid accidentally leaving a cached IP pointing at the portal for the website that the user was trying to visit?
04:28:04 <ais523> (because an nxdomain return, or just dropping the request, would mean that the browser didn't try to load the captive portal page)
04:29:01 <pikhq> Depends on the captive portal, though.
04:29:27 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I think Conway's Game of Life would be a great thing to make an esoteric computer out of.
04:29:54 <pikhq> I assume you're familiar with http://code.kryo.se/iodine/ ?
04:31:50 <oerjan> @ask b_jonas <b_jonas> can you send one to Ben Franklin please/ <-- let me guess, you want him to switch negative and positive charge?
04:33:12 <adu> hppavilion[1]: or you could base it on the work of Alexey Radul and Gerald Jay Sussman
04:33:50 <oerjan> HiggledyPiggledyPowerAutomatonVirtualInstructibleLayoutInsensitiveOperatingNetwork[1]
04:33:59 <tswett> You should call it Ambronse Alphose, of course.
04:36:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Higgledy Piggledy Processor]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44416 * Hppavilion1 * (+373) Created Page (WIP)
04:48:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44417 * Zzo38 * (+4821) Created page with "Here I list various programming languages and VMs and computers and so on with some kind of unusual features (and stuff I found interesting); if you disagree you might change ..."
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05:27:29 <adu> hppavilion[1]: Emoculus? really?
05:27:39 <adu> I'm not writing that page
05:29:07 <adu> it sounds like homonculus
05:29:33 <hppavilion[1]> The name can be changed; it was just the best I could come up with
05:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44418&oldid=44383 * Hppavilion1 * (+12) There, adu
05:30:28 <adu> http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Homonculus
05:30:43 <adu> hppavilion[1]: ahh that's better
05:31:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: how so?
05:31:54 <adu> it just means "little man"
05:31:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44419&oldid=44418 * Hppavilion1 * (+41) Compartmentalization!
05:32:54 <adu> I think the PC term is "little person"
05:35:29 <adu> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/homunculus
05:35:35 <adu> also spelled with a u
05:35:46 <adu> wow you can learn so much from a dictionary
05:46:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44420&oldid=44417 * Zzo38 * (+4192)
05:47:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44421&oldid=44420 * Zzo38 * (+15)
05:47:13 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Re. nested k I just think that there's no reason to special-case it since the standard doesn't say you should, so I implement k to the letter and observe the resulting "interesting" nested k :-P
05:49:33 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/tmp: No such file or directory
05:49:50 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var: No such file or directory
05:49:58 <HackEgo> bin \ games \ include \ lib \ local \ sbin \ share \ src
05:50:09 <HackEgo> aclocal \ adduser \ alsa \ application-registry \ applications \ apps \ aptitude \ apt-xapian-index \ avahi \ base-files \ base-passwd \ binfmts \ bison \ bug \ build-essential \ ca-certificates \ ca-certificates-java \ calendar \ cmake-2.8 \ common-licenses \ dbus-1 \ debconf \ debhelper \ debianutils \ dict \ doc \ doc-base \ dpkg \ emacs \ file
05:52:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> ais523.................. <-- it was inevitable, really.
05:52:58 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/culprit | grep summary:
05:52:59 <HackEgo> summary: <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ summary: <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ summary: <badger> le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY \ summary: <badger> le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists th
05:54:57 <ais523> my attempts to delete random entries have apparently ended up putting me in the version history of all of them
05:55:57 <ais523> doesthiswork1: I've got better at mentioning Feather without actually /thinking/ about it
05:56:02 <ais523> I have way too many other things to think about atm
05:56:18 <zzo38> Hppavilion1 put one thing in the userspace because it is not esolang and you are free to move to the main namespace if it belong there, but there is also something in my userspace I do not know if it is esolang or not (although someone on this channel told me to put it there, I think); originally it said don't move to main namespace but now it says it can be moved if it is agreed to belong in main namespace.
06:01:20 <zzo38> (The page about Hedwig Notta is not bad as it is though, although it could be improved; unfortunately I do not know what to write.)
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06:56:51 <blurelIse> zzo38: I always start with "Lorem Ipsum" when I don't know what to write on a page. It's kinda like "Once upon a time", but can go on for days if you have enough latin
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07:02:21 <zzo38> I don't know enough Latin
07:03:36 <izabera> http://www.lipsum.com/ now you do
07:04:45 <blurelIse> alternatively, theres bacon https://baconipsum.com/
07:07:15 <blurelIse> if thats too non-kosher, theres a great document you can probably use, entitled "Chicken", that basically repeats the word chicken repeatedly, but is nicely formatted and pnctuated
07:08:01 <izabera> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Chicken
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07:51:46 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 It found one real crash that happens on the normal binary so far. Related to stack stack starting ({ that is)
07:52:51 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 "PXIF"4({XJJCdM-^? and "PXIF"4({XJJCyM-^? both trigger variants of it. And those are minimized.
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08:06:43 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 Oh I see, it is trying to allocate around 2^62 funge cells, and for some reason it isn't failing at malloc, but when trying to memset it all to zero
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08:16:56 <Jafet> malloc never fails.
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08:21:25 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdlib.h> \ int main(void) { for(int i=0;; ++i) { assert (malloc(1e9)), printf("%d\n", i); } }
08:21:30 <HackEgo> <stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:2:2: error: missing terminating " character \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
08:22:56 <Jafet> `cc #include <assert.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ #include <stdio.h> \ int main(void) { for(int i=0;; ++i) { assert (malloc(1e9)), printf("%d%c", i, 10); } }
08:22:58 <HackEgo> a.out: <stdin>:4: main: Assertion `malloc(1e9)' failed. \ Aborted
08:23:08 <Jafet> For some values of never.
08:23:13 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
08:23:30 <HackEgo> stat: cannot stat `/sys/vm': No such file or directory
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09:16:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44422&oldid=44390 * Martin Büttner * (+275) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
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09:59:32 <JesseH> Insane, a language that changes how it works when you use it, but gives you details of how it changes.
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11:09:12 <int-e> Wait, that question is still considered to be open?
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12:21:46 <bender|> Guys, are there compilers that compile to BF?
12:22:41 <gamemanj> There are (BFBASIC is one), but wouldn't that take out the fun of it?
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12:55:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44423&oldid=44422 * 213.162.68.156 * (+1756) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
12:56:50 <int-e> a bit tedious, perhaps, but not hard
13:05:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Int-e * New user account
13:06:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44424&oldid=44423 * Int-e * (+85) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ de-anonymize
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13:07:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44425&oldid=44404 * CosmoConsole * (+0) /* Operation */ a minor change in operation
13:08:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Int-e]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44426 * Int-e * (+43) Created page with "I wasn't bored enough to say anything here."
13:24:00 <int-e> oerjan will probably have a fit about the missing -- and the broken thread... but I'm not sure what to do about the latter
13:24:16 <int-e> and can't be bothered to add the former right now
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13:51:37 <Jafet> The calling conventions of bf-targeting compilers are even more esoteric than their target language
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14:26:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Insomnia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44427&oldid=39840 * Sait2000 * (+146)
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14:39:39 <FreeFull> Could you train a markov chain on an image and then have it generate an image?
14:41:22 <boily> FreeFello. probably so!
14:41:40 <boily> I'm thinking maybe start with the middle pixel, then grow concentric circles around it?
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14:43:09 <FreeFull> Hmm, it'd be something to try out
14:45:00 <FreeFull> Seems it is something that has been done
14:45:56 <FreeFull> http://www.mat.ucsb.edu/~g.legrady/academic/courses/08s594/prj/db/
14:46:03 <FreeFull> Doesn't seem to have been too successful
14:46:19 <FreeFull> The generated images don't really look like the training data
14:47:13 <boily> enhance the algorithm!
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14:48:37 <boily> I'm thinking about exploiting anisotropy: different probabilities according to the growth vector.
14:49:04 <boily> maybe treat the colour channels separately? split tables for each of them.
14:49:12 <int-e> surely a context of one pixel can't be enough...
14:50:37 <boily> translate RGB to Lab, normalize data, create an Expectation-Maximisation model? use multiple pictures at the same time for training?
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15:00:57 * int-e should add a russian key layout... and re-learn russian...
15:06:24 <boily> what would be the most efficientest way to cover all of Unicode on a layout? modifier keys to reach different blocks?
15:07:02 <boily> Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift-SouthIndic-Tamil?
15:09:26 <int-e> hmm, efficient in what sense...
15:10:17 <int-e> you can do a frequency analysis and make a huffman tree using all keys of your keyboard ;)
15:10:28 <boily> something along those lines :D
15:11:13 <boily> I remember that when I was using rxvt-unicode I could hold Ctrl-Shift and type codepoint hex codes to get any wanted character.
15:12:00 <boily> Phellontom_Hoover. that's a possibility, but not enough "humanlike" hth
15:12:33 <int-e> right, better limit yourself to 8 simultaneously pressed keys at most ;)
15:22:05 -!- int-e has set topic: The Unicode Pianist | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | https://esolangs.org/.
15:41:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44428&oldid=44424 * Int-e * (+321) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ oops.
15:44:34 <int-e> hmm. "Notice will be provided in clear and conspicuous language" ... is "conspicuous" a legal term?
15:50:49 <\oren\> Try simply having compose + base-64-encoded-code-poin
15:52:48 <\oren\> or maybe have a choose-language key, which is followed by a language code
15:53:23 <\oren\> choose,D,E gives you a german keyboeard
15:54:00 <\oren\> choose,S,E gives you a swedish one
15:54:22 <\oren\> choose,J,P gives you a japanese IME
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16:01:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44429&oldid=44428 * Int-e * (+229) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ oops again
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16:06:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44430&oldid=44429 * Int-e * (+2) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ ...details, details
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16:16:58 <shachaf> int-e: I have a "phonetic Russian" keyboard layout set up.
16:17:28 <shachaf> But I don't speak Russian.
16:19:23 <quintopia> i had that keyboard layout set up on my laptop
16:19:33 <int-e> \oren\: oh I see what happened, I had somehow conflated "conspicuous" and "suspicious"
16:19:39 <quintopia> but i havent used my laptop seriously in months
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16:36:22 <\oren\> quintopia: are you using it now?
16:39:44 <\oren\> in other news I still havent' found any need to install linux on my new laptop. Instead, I'm currently sshing into my linux laptop and using the brand new one as a thin client.
16:41:33 <mauris> int-e: i hear you know the secrets to 84-byte haskell fizzbuzz (but not henkma's 82)
16:41:39 <\oren\> so yeah. still on 32-bit up in this bitch
16:42:37 <\oren\> 84 bytes? isn't that rather a lot
16:42:43 <mauris> people are collecting the very shortest fizzbuzzes on codegolf.SE now that the competition has sort of died out! so i shared my 85B and maybe we should compare solutions? http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/58800/3852
16:42:58 <mauris> main=mapM(putStrLn.f)[1..100];f n|d<-drop.(*4).mod n=max(show n)$d 3"Fizz"++d 5"Buzz"
16:44:11 <\oren\> oh, haskell, not some esolang
16:45:31 <gamemanj> at those code densities any language is an esolang :)
16:46:28 <myname> exceptt perl, where this is considered normal
16:47:22 <\oren\> it's interesting that the lengths of the haskell and C versions are so close
16:48:00 <\oren\> despite the two languages being basically at odds in so many ways
16:49:25 <\oren\> then there is a cluster around 54 or Perl Python PHP and Powershell
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16:52:56 <\oren\> Myabe these clusters reflect some degree of similarity of the "density" of the syntax, as an emergent quality of the language (the maximum "meaning per character" expressible in the syntax)
16:53:49 <int-e> mauris: I have no idea where you heard that but you heard wrong
16:54:26 <mauris> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2014-09-14.txt ?
16:55:54 <int-e> If I had 84 that day I didn't record the solution. But I probably just miscounted and didn't bother to report the fact.
16:57:13 <int-e> (in my file there's a 85 character solution)
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17:20:59 <Vorpal> tix=0 tid=0 x=11 y=0: / (47)
17:20:59 <Vorpal> Stack has 2 elements, top 15 (or less) elements:
17:20:59 <Vorpal> -1 -9223372036854775808
17:21:04 <Vorpal> Floating point exception
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17:23:40 <Vorpal> (gdb) print -9223372036854775808LL / -1LL
17:23:52 <Vorpal> And the program crashes with SIGFPE on that
17:25:30 <int-e> > (-2^63) `div` (-1) :: Int
17:25:52 <myname> Vorpal: look at the manual for sigfpe
17:26:08 <myname> it's stated there to exactly do that
17:26:38 <Vorpal> myname, I don't have a man page for sigfpe?
17:27:10 <Vorpal> so which manual do you mean? The C specification?
17:30:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: I did that on cfunge just the other day.
17:30:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Didn't think it counted as a bug when you asked.
17:30:23 <fizzie> That's exactly the one thing I was trying to use <(echo ...) for.
17:30:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? Well the standard only mentions division by zero
17:30:39 <Vorpal> But I would like to handle whatever this is
17:31:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why is -2⁶³ / -1 an SIGFPE?
17:31:36 <fizzie> You get SIGFPE on the DE exception, and x86 throws the DE exception if the result is out of range.
17:31:54 <fizzie> One of the x86 hardware exceptions.
17:32:07 <fizzie> And it's a SIGFPE because INT_MIN / -1 would have the value (INT_MAX+1), which doesn't fit.
17:32:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the standard says nothing about this issue
17:32:16 <Vorpal> And presumably it is x86 specific
17:32:35 <Vorpal> What does the IEEE say?
17:32:41 <fizzie> Nothing, because it's an integer operation.
17:32:46 <Jafet> It's signed overflow, which is undefined
17:33:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what does the funge standard say?
17:33:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you get on other architectures, but the problem itself is common to everything that's twos'-complement.
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17:33:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what do you think should happen?
17:34:10 <fizzie> I think that's really a matter of opinion. You could argue that it's quite similar to division-by-zero, and could yield zero.
17:34:12 <Deewiant> The standard doesn't mention the issue, CCBI doesn't special-case it
17:34:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, also how did you test this btw? I'd like to know if you managed to beat the fuzzer to the program length
17:34:26 <fizzie> The other "typical" answer is to return INT_MIN again.
17:34:42 <fizzie> $ echo '2:*:*:*:*:*:2/*:.01-/' > tmp.bef; cfunge tmp.bef
17:34:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well I'd like my program to not crash :P
17:34:54 <Jafet> > 2^32 * 2^32 :: Int
17:34:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, or do: "PXIF"4(R:S/3"0
17:34:57 <fizzie> The one :. is extra, too, left for debugging.
17:35:34 <fizzie> 2:*:*:*:*:*:2/*01-/ is still a bit longer, but at least it's fingerprint-free.
17:35:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, I haven't bothered figuring out how that triggers it, have fun if you want to
17:35:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think it multiplies the fingerprint itself or something
17:36:19 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Oh wow, I didn't realize that actually causes a SIGFPE on x86.
17:36:23 <fizzie> I don't even know what the FIXP representation is.
17:36:36 <Deewiant> I always thought it just yields INT_MIN again.
17:36:40 <fizzie> It's a classic denial-of-service technique.
17:36:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, right, so now you will patch ccbi?
17:37:15 <Deewiant> If somebody actually cares, then yes
17:37:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it just LONG_MIN / -1 that can cause this?
17:37:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, or some other combination too?
17:37:34 <Vorpal> I'd rather not catch SIGFPE
17:37:35 <Deewiant> Vorpal: INT_MIN works just fine too.
17:37:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, no, I have 64-bit cells :P
17:37:51 <b_jonas> I for one would prefer if INT_MIN/-1 silently gave INT_MIN, but the division by zero trap in that case is hard-coded in the signed division operation of x86, so you can't just change this cheaply without wrapping every division operation.
17:38:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the only combination when your input and output operands are the same size.
17:38:23 <Deewiant> Vorpal: (LONG_MIN isn't necessarily 64-bit) in that case, yes, only that case (and division by zero which you know and handle).
17:38:30 <Vorpal> b_jonas, well you could catch SIGFPE and mess with the registers, but urgh
17:38:32 <b_jonas> You can certainly wrap the division, but it would be crazy to expect for the C language to do that for you.
17:38:43 <b_jonas> Vorpal: yes, you can certainly do that.
17:39:12 <fizzie> The "SIGFPE if result is too big" is also the bane of everyone who assumes the x86 div/idiv instructions are 64x64 to 64 when it's actually 128x64 to 64.
17:39:12 <b_jonas> but you can't avoid the trap unless you make sure in advance to give the right arguments
17:39:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I think I have a FUNGE_CELL_MIN define or something *somewhere*
17:40:00 <Vorpal> b_jonas, that is the more portable solution I will go for probably
17:40:05 <Vorpal> I don't want to mess with SIGFPE
17:40:17 <fizzie> (And analogously for 64x32-to-32, 32x16-to-16 and 16x8-to-8.)
17:40:27 <fizzie> There's been a number of people on ##asm who don't clear (or sign-extend, as appropriate) the high half.
17:41:32 <myname> also, some cpu do crazy stuff if you divide by 2^x with the lower 64 bit being 0
17:41:34 <Sgeo> "ARIN has reached depletion of the general IPv4 free pool today, 24 September 2015."
17:41:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: FIXP provides 4 decimal digits of precision.
17:41:40 <b_jonas> Vorpal: iirc it's a trap, not a fault, so you don't even have to mess with the registers. just return from the interrupt
17:41:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess I will have to patch CPLI and such too
17:42:00 <b_jonas> (so is a division in first place, but there's a big difference)
17:42:07 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, (ai * bi + ar * br) / denom);
17:42:07 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, (ai * br - ar * bi) / denom);
17:42:08 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, 0);
17:42:09 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, 0);
17:42:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, right, I somehow skipped that line.
17:42:12 <Vorpal> Okay that will be annoying
17:43:21 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I'm using afl to fuzz cfunge in case you missed that yesterday
17:43:23 <fizzie> Just stick a static inline cell funge_div(cell nom, cell denom); somewhere and use that every time you feel like writing a /.
17:44:04 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it found this bug, k-issues and something really really strange with broken stacks in { for massive negative arguments. Other than that it seems very good
17:44:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably a good idea yes
17:45:07 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Oh, good, let me know if you find anything else interesting. It's on my todo list for my written-in-C interpreter (which is turning out to be a bit of a fi:ikuisuusprojekti).
17:45:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well it should generate a corpus that will exercise lots of code paths
17:45:41 <Deewiant> Couldn't think of a good translation on short notice.
17:45:42 <Vorpal> Deewiant, might be fun running ccbi on that
17:45:51 <b_jonas> a moment, I'm still looking it up, I'm not sure in this
17:46:05 <Vorpal> Deewiant, no, but there is a qemu mode, (somewhat slower)
17:46:31 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and if you can target LLVM, it might be possible, not sure. I haven't looked into the llvm stuff, but it might need clang?
17:46:48 <Deewiant> If it needs clang it can't use D, that's for sure.
17:46:55 <Deewiant> If it can work on raw LLVM it'd work though.
17:47:23 <Deewiant> But I'd rather not set up the whole D development thing again... I'm hoping I won't have to touch CCBI any more. :-P
17:47:23 <b_jonas> thanks, manual, using the symbol "#DE" for two different things. typical of your sloppy ambiguous pseudocode notation, intel.
17:48:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, don't like D?
17:48:33 <fizzie> The "D" is short for "dead language".
17:49:11 <Deewiant> Last update end of 2012. I could port to D 2.0 but I don't like it and the effort is probably comparable to rewriting in C anyway.
17:49:52 <Deewiant> Unfortunately the rewrite turned into rewrite-and-improve so it's kind of stuck as I don't have as much time to work on it as I used to.
17:50:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about -1 / -2^63?
17:50:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's just 0.
17:50:20 <Vorpal> There is no weird underflow or something I assume
17:50:52 <b_jonas> the AMD manual says it's a fault
17:50:58 <b_jonas> so you have to do something special, you can't just ignore it
17:51:06 <Vorpal> What is the word for the part that isn't the denominator in English?
17:51:11 <b_jonas> that's stupid, but it's for compatibility
17:51:27 <b_jonas> yeah, like Númenor or Numitor
17:51:40 <b_jonas> where is this in the intel manual though?
17:51:47 <shachaf> I think I've heard it called "fraction line" or something like that.
17:53:22 <fizzie> b_jonas: In my copy, it's in volume 3, chapter 6.15 "Exception and Interrupt Reference", subpart "Interrupt 0 - Divide Error Exception (#DE)".
17:53:28 <fizzie> "Exception Class: Fault."
17:53:56 <fizzie> "Indicates the divisor operand for a DIV or IDIV instruction is 0 or that the result cannot be represented in the number of bits specified for the destination operand."
17:54:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, when can that fail?
17:54:30 <int-e> Vorpal: that's the same instruction
17:55:07 <Vorpal> int-e, and what should it return on -2^63 / -1
17:55:29 <fizzie> Rather, -2^63 % -1, and that one should clearly be 0.
17:55:32 <Jafet> > (-2^63) `mod` (-1)
17:55:40 <Jafet> > (-2^63) `rem` (-1)
17:55:43 <int-e> Vorpal: we have already established what it does return
17:56:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: indeed, it's there
17:56:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, what should it return in MODU fingerprint though?
17:56:33 <int-e> (nothing, it causes an exception)
17:56:48 <int-e> Haskell actually implements special cases for INT_MIN/-1
17:57:03 <int-e> which is why the mod and rem don't fail
17:57:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, because that is all the cases of signed result, unsigned result and reminder
17:57:31 <int-e> > (-2^63) `mod` (-1) :: Int
17:57:58 <Jafet> > (2^63 :: Int) == (-2^63)
17:58:00 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it should be 0 for all the three variants.
17:58:39 <fizzie> > (-2^63) `div` (-1) :: Int
17:59:45 <fizzie> b_jonas: There's only three in the MODU fingerprint.
18:00:07 <fizzie> There's seven in one R7RS draft, IIRC, but they culled them down a bit.
18:00:07 <Vorpal> which is the missing fourth variant?
18:00:58 <fizzie> It defines the functions {floor,ceiling,centered,truncate,round,euclidan}-{quotient,remainder}.
18:01:17 <fizzie> They're all defined in terms of what the quotient is.
18:01:29 <fizzie> Ceiling, floor, truncate and round are probably all self-evident.
18:02:00 <Vorpal> The other ones are not
18:02:11 <fizzie> Euclidean is "floor if denominator is > 0, ceiling if denominator is < 0".
18:02:22 <Vorpal> Makes little sense, but go on
18:02:48 <fizzie> And centered is "choose quotient such that -|denom/2| <= remainder < |denom/2|".
18:02:58 <Vorpal> I assume round is "round to nearest, 0.5 away from 0"?
18:03:16 <fizzie> Centered makes the remainder as small is possible.
18:03:27 <fizzie> In absolute value terms.
18:03:40 <int-e> what's the difference between centered and round? or between euclidean and truncate?
18:04:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Round is "round to even on 0.5".
18:04:34 <fizzie> Apparently "for consistency with the default rounding mode" for IEEE floats.
18:05:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about this code for "variable behaviour" warning btw? "ITRH"4(G(
18:05:28 <Vorpal> I think it is brilliant
18:05:30 <fizzie> int-e: Truncate would give you 1 out of (-3)/(-2); euclidean gives 2.
18:05:47 <fizzie> Because it's ceil((-3)/(-2)) since -2 < 0.
18:06:01 <Jafet> "Euclidean" presumably keeps the remainder 0 <= r < |b|.
18:06:35 <fizzie> I can't really keep any of them straight in my head without working it out.
18:07:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is quite a bad crash: http://sprunge.us/FgJR
18:07:10 <fizzie> Also I'm not sure how widely useful these are. They were all in the core language, too, which was supposed to be small and neat, after the R6RS debacle.
18:07:19 <Vorpal> at least valgrind picks up on it earlier
18:07:56 <fizzie> They only kept {floor,truncate}-{quotient,remainder} in the final R7RS.
18:08:13 <Vorpal> Deewiant, that "IRTH"4(G( is a beautiful way to find non-determinism
18:08:51 <int-e> -a / -b gives you the ceiling version
18:09:09 <int-e> (when used with the floor version)
18:09:27 <Vorpal> Deewiant, even when srandom has been hard coded in for the point of fuzzing and so on
18:10:02 <Vorpal> #1 0x000000000040fd6e in stack_zero_fill (stack=0x67a45a0, count=9223372036854775800) at /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/stack.c:486
18:10:02 <Vorpal> 486memset(&stack->entries[stack->top], 0, count * sizeof(funge_cell));
18:10:02 <Vorpal> $1 = 9223372036854775800
18:10:07 <Deewiant> Vorpal: You mean afl found that, or what? It's certainly clever-looking, yes
18:10:08 <Vorpal> Yep, I can see why this crashes
18:10:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, afl found it yes
18:10:24 <Vorpal> Deewiant, presumably it is either 1 or 2 on my system
18:10:48 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it reports inputs that give variable behaviour as well
18:11:05 <Deewiant> (Never actually used it myself)
18:11:09 <int-e> > (-16) `div` 2 :: Word
18:12:01 <Vorpal> Deewiant, since I patched in srandom(4) for fuzz testing and so on, it only managed to find 22 cases of variable behaviour so far (wrt which branch is taken)
18:12:46 <Vorpal> Also limits to 1000 executed instructions, and 500 spaces before giving up to find the next instruction, since those are boring hangs
18:13:07 <Vorpal> Still have 38k hangs (500+ unique) it reports, so eh
18:13:17 <Vorpal> It ran since yesterday evening
18:14:50 <Vorpal> Most variable behaviour involves HRTI
18:15:14 <Vorpal> Though it managed one with JSTR, that is interesting
18:15:28 <fizzie> Bah. Tried to set up the Chromium tree at home, but it just fetches the 21 gigs of stuff and barfs http://sprunge.us/ZDBC
18:16:20 <Vorpal> here are some interesting cases of non-determinism when random/srandom is neutred: http://sprunge.us/aSaQ
18:16:29 <Vorpal> A lot involve HRTI and are probably boring
18:16:42 <Vorpal> There is one involving TOYS it seems
18:17:07 <Vorpal> "PSD2SYOT"4( C"%4"SEO"BEMIT"4(EMIH"HHG""(VX^VL4(VF^VL
18:17:11 <Vorpal> That is quite interesting
18:17:25 <Deewiant> With the amount of ( there I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up loading HRTI :-P
18:17:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I think it loads TIME
18:17:56 <Vorpal> which is just as bad I guess
18:18:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, this one I don't get though: "RTSJ"4(????\E\\\\(?????M-^??(M-SM-^J^@4???^_?????(M-SM-^J^@4???^_?????ek_\\\y\\\P
18:18:55 <Vorpal> Oh I guess you are right
18:19:41 <Vorpal> Also I have some crashes, that are not crashes unless I run it with the fuzz build. All of them involve k. So that is fun
18:20:23 <Vorpal> I'm more concerned with the { crash. That might be exploitable if you can trick the program into using a massive negative value
18:20:35 <Vorpal> Since it crashes at different addresses each time
18:22:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44431&oldid=44397 * Vihan * (+6) /* Escaping Quotes */
18:24:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44432&oldid=44431 * Vihan * (-10) /* Functions */
18:24:23 <Vorpal> It seems it successfully allocates 1 TB virtual address space first?
18:24:46 <Vorpal> Exactly 1 TiB I think?
18:25:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Linux overcommitting makes it hard to implement stack stack memory handling properly :/
18:26:17 <Vorpal> Though that is not the issue at hand
18:26:23 <Deewiant> Vorpal: The user's OS not reporting memory allocation failures is not your problem :-P
18:27:02 <Vorpal> Deewiant, becuase it allocates 1*8 TiB, which apparently overflows signed 64-bit? Really?
18:27:10 <Vorpal> (gdb) print 9223372036854775802LL * 8LL
18:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44433&oldid=44432 * Vihan * (+59) /* Functions */
18:28:43 <Deewiant> 9223372036854775802 is not a terabyte
18:29:31 <olsner> what is it, 8 ebibyte?
18:29:34 <Deewiant> That's 8 EiB, and yes 64 EiB doesn't fit in signed 64-bit
18:30:34 <Deewiant> Actually it's 8 EiB minus six bytes
18:31:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, actually I think the calculation is unsigned, when it does the allocation.
18:31:49 <Vorpal> I'm trying to understand why it doesn't fail at that point
18:31:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44434&oldid=44433 * Vihan * (+77)
18:31:56 <Vorpal> instead of when trying to memset the thing
18:32:04 <pikhq> If it makes you feel any better, that's just Linux's default behavior, not the only one.
18:32:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44435&oldid=44434 * Vihan * (+3) /* Functions */
18:32:28 <pikhq> You can tell Linux to actually keep track of memory like LITERALLY EVERY OTHER OS ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET. :)
18:32:28 <Vorpal> but 8 ebibyte is stupid
18:33:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, that meant I couldn't start SCBL at some point, because it allocated a huge chunk of memory ahead of time
18:33:44 <int-e> I hope that's SBCL
18:34:00 <Vorpal> err yeah probably, the LISP thingy
18:34:21 <Vorpal> int-e, is SCBL something else that exists?
18:34:36 <int-e> probably. nothing I know about though
18:34:49 <Vorpal> The "hope" thingy made me curious
18:34:50 <int-e> "Southern Collegiate Baseball League"
18:35:07 <int-e> Vorpal: ah I was hoping not to be ignorant of something well-known ;)
18:35:14 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Maybe you can set a signal handler and thus notice the memset failure, not sure
18:35:38 <int-e> also "spamcop blocking list"...
18:35:48 <int-e> that's something I might have encountered
18:36:08 <pikhq> Uh, pretty sure the OOM killer does SIGKILL. :)
18:36:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway it isn't the OOM killer that messes me up
18:36:37 <Vorpal> I think there must be a different bug in here
18:38:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hm does the allocation almost overflow unsigned arithmetic right?
18:38:46 <Vorpal> Because I round up to nearest 4096 byte boundary when allocating
18:38:53 <Vorpal> So I probably overflow I would guess
18:39:23 <Vorpal> actually that is 4096 funge cells
18:39:37 <Vorpal> So I actually round up to 8*4096 bytes
18:40:25 <Deewiant> Vorpal: One exbibyte is 2^60 bytes so you can have almost 16 of those
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18:42:55 <zzo38> I think that maybe how it should be done by Linux OOM killer is instead, first to do ahead of time to send SIGMEM signal (default: do nothing) before it run out of memory, and then SIGOOM (default: terminate) and then SIGKILL
18:44:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44436&oldid=44419 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) Narrowed down mother's death date given recent evidence
18:47:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44437&oldid=44436 * Hppavilion1 * (+13) Linked
18:47:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44438&oldid=44437 * Hppavilion1 * (+17) Corrected link
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18:51:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Amathnea]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44439 * Hppavilion1 * (+370) Created page. Needs to be filled. Anyone feel like making up some medical bullshit?
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18:53:06 <Deewiant> Maybe setting RLIMIT_AS conservatively and then comparing that to the available memory when malloc fails would get you somewhere
18:53:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Amathnea]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44440&oldid=44439 * Hppavilion1 * (+213) Prevention
18:54:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, This bug might have to wait for later
18:54:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Amathnea]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44441&oldid=44440 * Hppavilion1 * (+40) Fixed a link
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18:55:21 <Deewiant> Nothing's a complete solution though, you can always get SIGKILLed even if you're not mallocing at the time
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18:56:59 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well obviously, but the bug is that the program ends up with a corrupt crash and crashes with SIGSEGV
18:57:08 <Vorpal> So it is not the OOM killer doing it
18:57:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44442&oldid=44438 * Hppavilion1 * (+25) Prepared for a new template
18:58:37 <Deewiant> Just musing about the memory allocation problem
18:59:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Amathnea]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44443&oldid=44441 * 82.40.165.129 * (+120) /* Signs and Symptoms */ (You asked...)
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19:02:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Fictional History of Esolangs]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44444 * Hppavilion1 * (+484) Created Template (I'm so sorry)
19:03:16 <Vorpal> $ ../../../build/cfunge -S second_63
19:03:16 <Vorpal> *** glibc detected *** ../../../build/cfunge: munmap_chunk(): invalid pointer: 0x0000000001306ef0 ***
19:03:19 <Vorpal> This is interesting too
19:03:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44445&oldid=44442 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Fixed(?) Template
19:03:50 <tswett> Now, my understanding of Windows is that there are two families: the old DOS-based family, and the new NT family. Is that right?
19:03:52 <Vorpal> Oh, we have a massive stack again
19:04:02 <gamemanj> Hppavilion[1]: It seems to be a small edit to add symptoms?
19:04:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Fictional History of Esolangs]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44446&oldid=44444 * Hppavilion1 * (+3) Fixed Navbox by closing it (maybe)
19:05:44 <\oren\> I've added 先手方文弟本时明星映春昼時晩普晶与丘丙両丼井乞乱乳亀予争休交仁付仙代令以会位住体何作使例便共兵具典兼
19:06:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Navbox]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44447 * Hppavilion1 * (+25) Created Navbox (maybe) (can't believe we didn't already have this...)
19:06:17 <gamemanj> Hppavilion[1]: Thanks for the compliment :) (try whois-ing me)
19:07:07 <fizzie> tswett: I'm sure it's a bit subjective. You *could* divide them in three groups (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 3.1x | 95, 98, ME | NT 3.1, ...) depending on how closely you look at the internals. But it's perhaps fair to say the 9x/ME versions are still "DOS-based" up to some degree.
19:07:22 <int-e> does Windows CE count?
19:07:25 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Do we have the necessary components for a Navbox?
19:07:29 <tswett> I thought it was a clear and objective distinction.
19:07:40 <tswett> Some versions use the DOS kernel or whatever, some use the NT kernel.
19:07:56 <fizzie> Well, that boundary is pretty uncontroversial.
19:08:07 <int-e> fizzie: win 95/98/ME still shipped with a DOS that could be booted by itself
19:08:47 <pikhq> fizzie: 9x/ME were as DOS-based as 3.x were.
19:08:50 <fizzie> int-e: Yes, but there's still quite a big difference between the 9x architecture and 3.1x. I mean, you don't group Linux distributions to different categories based on which bootloader they use.
19:08:57 <int-e> (but afai the windows part didn't rely on the DOS part at all, except for the boot process)
19:09:17 <pikhq> 3.x didn't rely on DOS much itself either, at least when running on 386.
19:10:05 <pikhq> 3.x booted into a protected mode kernel with, optionally, device drivers running there.
19:10:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44448&oldid=44083 * Timwi * (+1) /* Stack Manipulation */
19:11:04 <pikhq> (namely, 3.x supported the "VxD" device driver model, which continued to be used on 9x)
19:11:13 <int-e> fizzie: I guess one should discuss the win16 (cooperative multi-tasking)/win32 (preemptive) split, and when win16 support was dropped
19:11:30 <pikhq> Win16 support has not been dropped.
19:11:40 <pikhq> Windows 8 on 32-bit x86 still runs Win16.
19:12:04 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Do you know why the #invoke template wouldn't be working on the wiki?
19:12:28 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: I'm not really any sort of MediaWiki expert.
19:12:35 <pikhq> ... Also, IIRC Win16 programs on 95 still ran basically fully cooperative multi-tasking, such that one could in fact halt the entire system.
19:13:27 <pikhq> (on NT, they run in a virtual DOS machine, such that a misbehaving Win16 program can only impact the other Win16 programs)
19:15:06 <pikhq> Also, 9x's interaction with DOS certainly was not just as a bootloader...
19:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> OK, according to what I can find, #invoke (which I need for the Navbox template) is included in ParserFunctions, but for some reason it isn't working.
19:15:20 <pikhq> It hooked DOS heavily such that any DOS drivers would still "just work". :)
19:15:26 <b_jonas> yep. and Microsoft would support Win16 and DOS programs out of box forever, if it weren't for AMD to tell them to suck it up and make their cpus refuse to do v86 mode in 64 bit OS, and Intel followed that. So now you need an external emulator software which isn't shipped with Windows.
19:15:49 <b_jonas> But there's no point running windows for that, I just run those old DOS games emulated on Linux.
19:16:06 <pikhq> b_jonas: Frankly there's no *good* reason for them to not still support Win16, other than them deciding it wasn't worth the effort.
19:16:22 <pikhq> Win16 programs run just fine in 16-bit protected mode inside long mode.
19:16:50 <b_jonas> pikhq: yeah, but the programs that actually matter to customers aren't the Win16 programs, but the actual real mode DOS programs.
19:17:31 <b_jonas> Eg. my father is working with old hardware which has to be managed through some very old legacy DOS program.
19:17:32 <pikhq> And there's no good reason they couldn't have resurrected the VDM implementation used on earlier non-x86 NT.
19:17:49 <b_jonas> People can still just run an emulator software.
19:17:50 <pikhq> (non-x86 NT shipped with a VDM which actually did emulate the 8086.)
19:18:03 <pikhq> But presumably it wasn't worth it to MS.
19:18:21 <pikhq> I believe the only reason the VDM still works on x86 Windows is because it hasn't broken yet.
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19:19:02 <pikhq> DOSemu certainly eliminates a lot of the interest.
19:19:12 <hppavilion[2]> I want to make a MediaWiki-like Social Network Software.
19:19:45 <b_jonas> pikhq: Those crazy old DOS programs will still be there a hundred years in the future when digital cameras and mobile phones finally start to realize that they should stop using FAT on the inserted SD cards because they can't store mtimes after 2097 or whatever date it is
19:20:19 <hppavilion[2]> Does anyone feel like participating in that's development?
19:20:22 <pikhq> I don't foresee FAT surviving much longer than the patent expiration on exFAT.
19:21:30 <b_jonas> pikhq: um, what's this exFAT you're talking about?
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19:21:47 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's the end of 2107 -- 7 bits from 1980.
19:21:55 <tswett> hppavilion[2]: in what way would it be MediaWiki-like?
19:22:07 <pikhq> exFAT is Microsoft's proposed FAT replacement, which is currently used on SD cards of larger than 32 GiB.
19:22:13 <b_jonas> (in localtime, damn it. so useful.)
19:22:18 <hppavilion[2]> tswett: Open source, extensible, you could just download it and run it yourself, etc.
19:22:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: Don't forget the 2-second resolution.
19:22:38 <tswett> Kind of sounds like Diaspora.
19:23:00 <hppavilion[2]> tswett: Was that directed at me or at the other conversation?
19:23:10 <b_jonas> pikhq: ah, I haven't heared of that. does that support UTC dates, and dates after the FAT coepoch?
19:23:42 <pikhq> Oh for fucks sake, it does not support dates after the FAT epoch.
19:23:52 <pikhq> It does, however, support UTC timestamps.
19:24:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, that matters a bit less. casual users don't generally set the clock on the camera accurately anyway, and dedicated users like me just read the centisecond precision timestamp from the EXIF info in the file content itself.
19:24:29 <hppavilion[2]> Diaspora appears to be a distributed network; one network altogether, but run on different servers. THIS would be like MediaWiki in that you could set it up on your own server for you own usage
19:24:45 <pikhq> The jerks that be ought to just support UDF.
19:24:51 <hppavilion[2]> For example, one could create a social network solely for people in a certain state/province/etc.
19:25:12 <hppavilion[2]> Or an Esolangs social network (though that's kind of what we have IRC for)
19:25:42 <hppavilion[2]> It's just a hypothetical idea that would be used to fill the gaping hole in my heart and distract me from the fact that someday this will all be gone
19:26:28 <\oren\> um how is that a valid xD?
19:27:21 <hppavilion[2]> Channels with multiple concurrent conversations are confusing
19:27:37 <hppavilion[2]> I have no clue what \oren\ is questioning the validity and/or masculinity of
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19:28:59 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so it kind of sounds like you're suggesting "like Diaspora, except it's impossible to link servers together"?
19:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> Again, it's mostly just a temporary solution to crushing boredom
19:29:50 <tswett> I guess you're saying you want your servers to be relatively independent and isolated or whatever.
19:30:17 <fizzie> Sounds like FidoNet, kinda.
19:30:39 <fizzie> Or that other thing that I forget the name of.
19:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> I want it to be like MediaWiki: Something a person can download and launch to have their own social network up and running in half an hour
19:32:33 <tswett> In any case, in my experience, it's very difficult to find people to contribute to your open-source project before you've started writing it.
19:33:57 <tswett> If you manage to find someone who has exactly the same vision for the project as you, they're likely to work with you, at least for a couple weeks or whatever.
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19:43:03 <hppavilion[1]> NEXT PROJECT: This is one I'm doing myself because it's for school, but I'd like to put it out there in case anyone has any ideas
19:43:35 <hppavilion[1]> It takes place in a small, closed-off ecosystem full of creatures. They change over time.
19:50:02 <MDude> I like evolution simulators, one of my favorite games is Creatures 3.
19:51:37 <Sgeo> Creatures tend to reproduce a bit slowly to be a great evolution simulator
19:51:42 <Sgeo> But I do love C3/DS
19:52:07 <Sgeo> Sort of surprised to see another Creatures person here
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19:53:24 <b_jonas> Sgeo: what why? this channel has all kinds of strange people.
19:53:46 <Sgeo> I didn't think Creatures was that popular
19:54:03 <Sgeo> Even though I'm a part of the community
19:54:06 <b_jonas> … including people who play unpopular games
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19:56:31 <Phantom_Hoover> if you are not currently reading 'the traitor baru cormorant' by seth dickinson i recommend you do so asap
19:58:41 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I consider it, it would be more of an ecosystem simulator than an evolution simulator, though I may still add evolutionary features
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20:32:47 <MDude> Something I'd like in an environment/evolution simulator is plants that evolve along with animals.
20:33:17 <MDude> That and a way for organisms to signal each other so ac to actually form colonies.
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20:35:08 <MDude> Viruses also play a big part in evolution, and most plants are symbiotic with some sort of fungus.
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20:46:11 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: I'm planning to make a whole line of ecological simulators, just for fun. I'll probably add parasites and viri in later installments
20:53:14 <fizzie> fungot: Are you symbiotic with a plant, by any chance?
20:53:14 <fungot> fizzie: they still don't seem to buy into the monolith engine was just not really harder than any other way
20:53:30 <fizzie> fungot: So you would be, but they're just not having it?
20:53:30 <fungot> fizzie: re style sheets, i've always believed that.
20:56:29 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think CSS is a matter of belief, really.
20:56:29 <fungot> fizzie: at what point does the bytecode deal with??? fnord
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21:16:52 <int-e> fizzie: try this: I believe CSS 3 transitions are a mistake.
21:19:50 <fizzie> I guess. But that's more of an opinion-belief. I was thinking of a faith-belief.
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21:43:20 <tswett> There are organisms. Every organism is constantly growing a little bit.
21:43:20 <tswett> When a large organism is next to the small organism, the large one eats the small one, destroying the small one and adding its size to its own size.
21:43:20 <tswett> So if a size-20 organism eats a size-3 organism, it becomes a size-23 organism.
21:43:20 <tswett> Once an organism gets sufficiently big, it splits into two organisms of equal size.
21:44:21 <tswett> (unrelated: local time as of this second is 14:44:21)
21:45:06 <tswett> That's pretty much my entire idea.
21:45:08 <tswett> Make of it what you will.
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21:45:48 <tswett> Also, the timestamps for the logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ are about 20 seconds ahead.
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22:06:48 <fizzie> "From: IEEE Signal Processing Society" "Subject: DEADLINE EXTENDED: ICASSP 2021 CALL FOR PROPOSALS DUE 12 OCT 2015" ... "Icedove thinks this message is a scam."
22:07:21 <ais523> most conferences don't have deadlines six years before the conference itself
22:07:31 <fizzie> It's a call for proposal, not a call for papers.
22:07:41 <fizzie> Those tend to be quite early. Although six years is still a bit extreme.
22:08:01 <fizzie> Still, it's a big conference, you can't organize one just like that.
22:09:06 <fizzie> (By a proposal they mean a bid to host it -- including venues, budgets, people, all that stuff.)
22:10:40 <fizzie> Admittedly, the email is very heuristically-scammy too: there's a link with the link text "http://www.signalprocessingsociety.org/[...]" but the actual href is to "http://signalprocessingsociety.us4.list-manage.com/track/click?[...]". I think that's one of the things the scam filter looks for.
22:11:01 <fizzie> Based on the fact that the warning says "the links in the message may be trying to impersonate web pages you want to visit".
22:12:44 <fizzie> I'm also not quite sure why they spam the call-for-proposals to the same mailing lists they send call-for-papers, it's not like a random researcher is going to be "hey, that's a good idea, I'll host a 2000-person conference in my back yard".
22:13:07 <fizzie> On the other hand, the Finnish national electricity grid operator has TV ads too, so what do I know.
22:16:54 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], in agar.io you voluntarily split, and can send off small particles. And also the people are 4channers it seems
22:17:42 <Sgeo> It's one thing that some people call themselves "nazi", it's something else entirely when it turns out that the dev added skins that are based on the name you select, and added one for "nazi"
22:19:40 <Sgeo> I think the dev eventually removed the nazi skin
22:22:47 <Sgeo> I don't think the dev is literally a nazi, just a 4channer. There was also an ISIS skin and other hateful skins
22:23:22 <\oren\> i see. like I said, a dumbass
22:27:06 <\oren\> this is a really boring game
22:29:43 <Sgeo> I actually really like the gameplay
22:31:14 <zzo38> I also don't like CSS 3 transitions and want to disable them in the client if possible. I have disabled some individual one but I want to disable entirely, to be able to write a user CSS code that overrides what commands in a CSS code do
22:34:35 <\oren\> Sgeo: Do you also enjoy watching mold slowly grow on pieces of bread?
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22:36:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: that would be nice. I'd like to disable line-height in CSS.
22:37:17 <Sgeo> \oren\, I like growing big enough to be a major player on a server
22:37:23 <Sgeo> A force to be reckoned with
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22:39:21 <\oren\> Isn't there some prototype browser that's written in Node.js
22:39:43 <\oren\> If you use that, then presumably you can override virtually anything in user code
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22:47:21 <zzo38> I also would like to change what some CSS commands do
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22:52:46 <ais523> Vorpal: you're aware of malloc overcommit, right?
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22:53:13 <ais523> although what's going on there isn't explainable like that
22:53:27 <ais523> ooh, is it integer overflow in the allocator? (especially if you use calloc())
22:53:37 <ais523> the size to allocate might be overflowing over the size of your int
22:53:49 <ais523> making the allocated memory small
22:53:58 <ais523> and then your loop to zero it is trying to zero a lot more memory than you allocated
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23:04:50 <\oren\> ais523: but if it's overflowing shouldn't the size of the zeroed part also overflow?
23:05:09 <ais523> \oren\: it depends on how the loops are written
23:05:14 <ais523> the allocation is measured in bytes
23:05:32 <ais523> whereas a zeroing loop is often measured in whatever units you're working in (e.g. Funge cells), which is a smaller number and thus might not overflow
23:06:21 <ais523> in particular, Vorpal quoted a value of "around 2^62 funge cells", which makes it seem quite likely that that's more than 2^64 bytes but that a loop that processed them a cell at a time wouldn't overflow
23:06:39 <ais523> (at least, not integer overflow; it would buffer overflow instead)
23:08:00 <ais523> hmm, an overflow-based esolang could be interesting, but not my style really
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23:08:04 <ais523> because I like things to be conceptually bignums
23:08:18 <ais523> that said, maybe I should make more esolangs that aren't my style
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23:23:51 <quintopia> int-e steno involves up to 20 simultaneous keys.
23:24:37 <quintopia> i think we could handle chording utf-16
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23:32:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44449&oldid=44421 * Zzo38 * (+1157)
23:36:59 <fizzie> Thanks, Icedove. You said the ICASSP call for proposals was a scam, but you think this SciencePG ("an independent international publisher of 100+ open accesses -- experiencing rapid growth and gaining widespread attention" offering great act-now discounts on article processing costs) call for "journal" submissions is completely legit.
23:42:11 <\oren\> in 30 min the lunar eclipse will begin
23:43:16 <ais523> fizzie: they want you to submit articles for journals? or just submit them the whole journal?
23:44:40 <pikhq> Unfortunately it won't be visible here until sunset.
23:47:02 <\oren\> fizzie: you should use alpine
23:49:32 <fizzie> ais523: Articles, I think, although one of the various blog posts on the subject describes someone replying to point out that their field is something SciencePG has no journal for, to which they got an answer suggesting they could start one and make the person the Editor-in-Chief.
23:49:52 <fizzie> \oren\: I don't see why.
23:50:22 <\oren\> it is a console program and has no spam filter
23:50:47 <\oren\> console programs are better. spam filters are stupid
23:51:01 <fizzie> It's not a spam filter, it's a scam filter.
23:51:47 <fizzie> Anyway, I've been alternating between Icedove and mutt with a frequency of about 3e-8 hertz, and I don't see why I'd pick a pine clone over mutt.
23:51:54 <fizzie> Heh, pine clone, pine cone.
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