00:03:13 <ais523> fizzie: "microhertz" is something of a joke, and that was very close to using nanohertz
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00:10:23 <fizzie> "Stochastic microhertz gravitational radiation from stellar convection", says arXiv.
00:11:22 <fizzie> "The microhertz was unit of frequency measurement that saw use in the Galactic Empire", says Wookieepedia, but does not elaborate, sadly.
00:13:55 <fizzie> Doesn't seem to have that many serious uses, indeed.
00:14:45 <fizzie> Some references to "microhertz resolution", which is less interesting.
00:26:15 <myname> you may like verbosefuck
00:26:48 <myname> it's basically bf that looks like java
00:28:28 <hppavilion[1]> OOBF would be cool because, well, BF is tapey. Where would you put Objects?
00:28:53 <fizzie> If you haven't already, you might want to look at Glass. Not that it's a BF derivative at all.
00:29:36 <fizzie> I like Glass; I even wrote something in it, although I can't remember what it was or where I put it or if I finished it.
00:36:52 <fizzie> There's also one language I've been trying to track down, which I think was OO-ish, and very anthropomorphic conventions. You had different job titles as class names, and named instances after matching famous people.
00:37:53 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, why did I direct that at myname specifically? xD
00:42:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Does OO still suck if it's not forced? e.g. in Python?
00:43:26 <myname> i dislike python wether or not oo is used there
00:43:30 <fizzie> It's ORK. I must have been thinking about ORK.
00:44:59 <fizzie> Actually, I'm not sure if it even has a convention for using famous people names for the people, maybe I just came up with that. Certainly the examples don't seem to do that.
00:46:06 <hppavilion[1]> Also, do you dislike OO even if it's optional in a language like <insert name of scripting language with classes that you like>?
00:46:23 <fizzie> And I think what I wrote was a CRC calculator, of all the things.
00:46:38 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/Lihc I wonder if it even works.
00:46:40 <myname> python has this weird "there is only one way to do it" thing. that just sucks
00:47:05 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that depends very heavily on the problem i am trying to takle
00:47:16 <hppavilion[1]> myname: There should be one, and preferably /only/ one, obvious way to do it
00:47:27 <myname> but i cannot think of anything that needs it or would benefit from it
00:47:31 <hppavilion[1]> That's the rule in python. I will admit it's not the best, but it's still a good language
00:48:16 <myname> these are two completely different things
00:48:38 <Taneb> Lunar eclipse tonight aaaaaaaa
00:50:35 <myname> guis are just annoying to use via ssh
00:50:48 <Denis_40> i cannot draw even a dick, let alone creating gui
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00:52:20 <myname> at the moment i do everything either via ssh or some android app
00:52:45 <myname> haven't touched an x86 in months
00:53:17 <Denis_40> myname, buy an x86 tablet, let arm alone :)
00:53:41 <Denis_40> how do you create such guis in an easy way?
00:53:42 <myname> i tried making arch work on my arm tablrt
00:53:52 <myname> didn't work like i wanted it to
00:54:05 <myname> hppavilion[1]: how else?
00:54:27 <myname> Denis_40: learn rust and drop c++ before it's too late
00:55:03 <Denis_40> it's already too late: I am going to start university, and for 2 years C++ will be the only language i'll use
00:55:33 <myname> sounds like a crappy university. at least if you study cs
00:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> Denis_40: Ah. I'm not sure how to do GUI with C or C++ (though I've heard about wxwidgets; someone liked it enough to port it to Python), Rust might be a good idea like myname said, but I personally prefer Python (though you can't really sell python applications unless you're giving it to a company)
00:56:31 <hppavilion[1]> Denis_40: It's a bad idea to ONLY use one language for years. You can do just C++ for assignments, but you should DEFINITELY know other languages
00:56:37 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, since qt is written in c++, using qt in c++ should be fairly easy
00:57:05 <hppavilion[1]> You could learn Haskell, possibly. Haskell is pretty good AND is intuitive for GUIs, I've heard
00:57:20 <Denis_40> well, i can use php, js css, scss and less, but I am not going to build guis with that
00:57:44 <myname> Denis_40: go learn you some haskell for great good
00:58:01 <myname> not for the sake of building guis
00:58:12 <hppavilion[1]> Technically, all you /do/ with PHP, JS, CSS, SCSS, and LESS is make GUIs, or more accurately stylize GUIs
00:58:20 <Denis_40> ahahahah after i have completed my actual book
00:58:23 <myname> but for the sake of learning a different way to think abouut problems
00:58:35 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: People use PHP for more than web.
00:59:05 <fizzie> (Even more so, possibly.)
00:59:27 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Why? I mean, I've looked at PHP code AND I read a website on it (I just put that for laughs). It's worse than Perl.
00:59:37 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Who knows, but they do.
00:59:50 <myname> fizzie: the uglier the language the more people try to use it where it's misplaced
01:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> PHP's array() is slightly better. But only barely.
01:00:36 <myname> hppavilion[1]: while a "list" in perl is something very weird
01:01:03 <fizzie> I've got a tool to download videos from the Finnish national broadcasting company's website, and it calls https://github.com/K-S-V/Scripts/blob/master/AdobeHDS.php to handle Adobe HDS streaming stuff. You need to install the command-line PHP tool for it.
01:02:00 <myname> hppavilion[1]: https://youtu.be/gweDBQ-9LuQ
01:09:55 <FreeFull> I can see some of Earth's shadow on the surface of the Moon
01:15:32 <Denis_40> no, it is ever worse, having variables that changes type is the worst thing you will ever have
01:16:27 <myname> having objects being null is way more annoying
01:16:41 <Denis_40> should I check the type of this variable? damn, what should I pass to this function, that variable..... what type is it?
01:17:20 <Denis_40> why null is equal to 0 despite the fact they are two different things?
01:17:32 <myname> php doesn't care what type it is. most of the time, every type is okay
01:18:09 <myname> there are some horrible problems that arise from people not being able to handle that, indeed
01:19:00 <myname> but if you know what you are doing you can work perfectly fine with it without noticable overhead
01:19:09 <Denis_40> pick one type and it will be ok is bad. Because you aren't actually thinking at what you are doing
01:20:09 <Denis_40> I mean... i can use integer or double... "what should I use" is not a question I am going to ask myself
01:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> the great thing is that its horribleness isn't down to one architectural problem that you can nerd out over
01:20:57 <myname> how is "i don't have to care about useless casting stuff" a bad thing?
01:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> every part of php is full of hilarious, horrifying fuckups; you can only truly hate it holistically
01:21:11 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
01:21:12 <Denis_40> because "everything just works most of the times"
01:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> myname, ah but you do have to care about useless casting
01:21:31 <myname> but it is not because of its weak tyoe system
01:22:05 <myname> Denis_40: working with that is way easier than you might think
01:22:14 <myname> you just have to know what you are doing
01:22:16 <pikhq> PHP: because T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
01:22:31 <Denis_40> https://github.com/NeroReflex/Gishiki
01:23:15 <Denis_40> hilariously.... knowing what you are doing is not going to be a good thing
01:23:49 <myname> in php you have to know what you are doing in like 1% of the code that most people never even do
01:24:02 <myname> in c++ you have to know what you are doing every single.line
01:24:21 <myname> hppavilion[1]: watch the video i linked you to
01:24:27 <Denis_40> php is a stupid language, where everything is an array and OOP doesn't exists
01:24:44 <myname> Denis_40: that is plain wrong
01:24:54 <Denis_40> that link is a framework I wrote on php
01:25:04 <Denis_40> I am not talking about you can use classes
01:25:18 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'll keep the tab open and close it in a month
01:25:23 <Denis_40> I am talking about memory is managed as an array
01:25:58 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it's just a brief introduction to perl lists
01:26:24 <Denis_40> moved in memory every fucked instruction
01:26:48 <Denis_40> you can find the limit in the php.ini
01:27:08 <Denis_40> but the limit is a per-call-limit
01:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> for one thing i'm sure php would allow for unbounded integers
01:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't mean like that, i mean that it'd be 'in spec' to make normal ints unbounded
01:28:40 <Denis_40> so... you can have yours scripts to occupy max 1GB ram, but that GB is intended per call
01:29:13 <Denis_40> you are running PHP in a server
01:29:14 <hppavilion[1]> You're getting into low level stuff I'm still learning now
01:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> (c is a conspicuous exception to this because you have sizeof and a bounded char width)
01:29:50 <Denis_40> and you can only use the resources associated with that given CPU
01:30:07 <Denis_40> are you fucking kidding me? And if I need more?
01:30:28 <Denis_40> facebook say: i'll rewrite php
01:30:59 <hppavilion[1]> WSN say: I have no clue what I'm doing someone help me
01:31:08 <pikhq> Google say: use C++, Java, Go, and Python.
01:31:17 <myname> ruby as a language is neat. the universe around it sucks pretty hard, though
01:31:55 <Denis_40> i have written a social network that is not working (because of server loads)
01:32:19 <Denis_40> so... maybe I should do a code review and re-think about it?
01:32:26 <zzo38> I think "everything is an array and OOP doesn't exists" is kind of (but not quite) true for PHP 4
01:32:38 <Denis_40> Nah, it is better spending 12342454361641523412521451345 dollars rewriting php
01:33:00 <zzo38> Use different programming language such as C
01:33:15 <zzo38> Both are better than PHP
01:33:43 <zzo38> Some libraries require PHP though
01:33:50 <Denis_40> actually, I think there are a very limited number of programming language worst than php
01:34:52 <Denis_40> I was hilarious about mark zucchina
01:34:58 <zzo38> You could also try to write it in SQL, it might also be better
01:35:30 <Denis_40> I will create an ftp social network
01:35:54 <zzo38> FTP is not a programming language; you will still need to use some programming language
01:36:39 <Denis_40> is it so much different from facebook?
01:36:50 <zzo38> You can use FTP, but you should need a program too
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01:37:05 <zzo38> The computer it won't do without the program
01:37:08 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Does an HTML directory of FTP servers count?
01:37:22 <Denis_40> i don't need a program, who want to use it need a program
01:37:39 <Denis_40> however, as with facebook, you are free to use the client you want
01:37:51 <zzo38> Denis_40: No you do, there need server program and client program, like with any internet protocol
01:37:57 <zzo38> So you do need a program.
01:38:36 <Denis_40> but..... well... I have not decided what program will I use
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01:39:10 <Denis_40> and if I should rolling one out
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01:40:48 <\oren\> you can write anything in C
01:41:31 <myname> use assembly, you can write anything in assembly
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01:42:18 <FreeFull> You can motivate Taneb to write anything
01:43:14 <\oren\> interesting fact: I have never seen any of the star wars movies
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01:44:05 <Denis_40> who doesn't love pic? they are so.....swetty <3
01:44:37 <\oren\> you should figure out a pic to help compute who is likely friends with who
01:45:18 <\oren\> for a social network, friend reccomends are important
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02:00:06 <lambdabot> izabera said 1m 1d 13h 58m 57s ago: yo
02:06:19 <\oren\> crap, its clWdE hEr in tRonu!
02:08:16 <lambdabot> CYUL 280200Z 17006KT 15SM FEW240 16/11 A3019 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP224
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04:01:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44450&oldid=44449 * Zzo38 * (+167)
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04:55:31 * oerjan uses the DOM explorer to force the tunes.org logs to wrap
05:05:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44451&oldid=44430 * Oerjan * (+2) The only thing that gives me a fit about your signatures is where you placed them.
05:06:24 <zzo38> Could you use Stylish extension to make the change permanent?
05:07:25 <ais523> IE has extensions, I think
05:07:29 <ais523> but I doubt they have the same name
05:07:46 <ais523> injected CSS/JS is one of the most obvious extensions there is though
05:08:38 <zzo38> I don't know how it is done in IE, but I thought in newer versions it may be possible at least
05:08:46 <zzo38> What version of IE is it anyways?
05:09:44 <oerjan> also, the logs still don't look that good. the page content is still one big <pre> (which admittedly made it easy to make it wrap)
05:09:49 <zzo38> See if there is the injected CSS/JS supporting then.
05:10:05 -!- bender| has changed nick to bender.
05:10:38 <oerjan> i find it disturbing that the help button for the DOM explorer leads to a Microsoft Edge webpage.
05:10:59 <oerjan> not only am i using IE, microsoft itself doesn't really want me to.
05:11:52 <zzo38> Then why do they make IE?
05:12:38 <oerjan> i mean, they want me to change to the brand new Edge, which i found horrible at first sight.
05:12:38 <zzo38> Do you know how good it is in a Dungeons&Dragons game to lose a class level (at least 5th) in exchange for two bonus feats and a few skills?
05:14:13 <oerjan> Gregor: codu.org is down hth
05:14:25 <oerjan> Gregor also seems pretty down
05:18:03 <hppavilion[1]> I have decided to add a principle to hppavilion[1]ism
05:18:27 <oerjan> good principle, especially with that nick hth
05:21:23 <shachaf> `` culprits wisdom | tr ' ' '\n' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
05:21:25 <HackEgo> 527 oerjan \ 182 shachaf \ 112 boily \ 55 elliott \ 50 Taneb \ 43 int-e \ 39 mroman \ 38 GreyKnight \ 32 mroman_ \ 29 Phantom_Hoover \ 28 tswett \ 27 Roujo \ 18 Bike \ 17 ZombieCheney \ 16 olsner \ 16 Jafet \ 16 FreeFull \ 13 fizzie \ 12
05:21:28 <shachaf> `` culprits quotes | tr ' ' '\n' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
05:21:30 <HackEgo> 328 elliott \ 321 oerjan \ 75 kmc \ 74 shachaf \ 52 ais523 \ 40 coppro \ 26 monqy \ 16 boily \ 14 Taneb \ 14 GreyKnight \ 13 Phantom_Hoover \ 11 shubshub \ 11 quintopia \ 11 Gregor \ 9 fizzie \ 8 mnoqy \ 8 FireFly \ 8 Fiora \ 8 ell
05:21:34 <shachaf> `` culprits . | tr ' ' '\n' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
05:21:37 <HackEgo> 1487 oerjan \ 614 elliott \ 536 shachaf \ 193 boily \ 179 Jafet \ 177 GreyKnight \ 165 kmc \ 164 fizzie \ 138 Roujo \ 135 Taneb \ 126 ais523 \ 102 mroman_ \ 99 int-e \ 98 Bike \ 94 nortti \ 90 nooodl \ 86 Phantom_Hoover \ 68 tswett \ 67 Sgeo \
05:21:50 <shachaf> `` culprits bin | tr ' ' '\n' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
05:21:52 <HackEgo> 287 oerjan \ 176 shachaf \ 110 Jafet \ 97 elliott \ 84 fizzie \ 61 Roujo \ 38 kmc \ 37 nooodl \ 35 nortti \ 32 int-e \ 30 tswett \ 29 FireFly \ 28 c00kiemon5ter \ 26 mrhmouse \ 26 ion \ 25 boily \ 25 b_jonas \ 24 ais523 \ 22 Taneb \
05:22:21 <zzo38> My name is Black, and if I called everything Black even things that are White, then you will not be able to tell the difference very well!
05:22:24 <Sgeo> I think there's a weird character in oerjan
05:22:44 <Sgeo> Or at least, my client started hilighting me but ended before oerjan's n
05:23:42 <oerjan> shachaf: elliott has edited the quotes more than me?
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05:24:42 <shachaf> I'm surprised nitia isn't listed anywhere there.
05:25:13 <oerjan> um it will have only one edit, surely
05:25:30 <oerjan> and will be at the bottom.
05:28:16 <shachaf> In retrospect that's a pretty silly thing to be surprised about.
05:29:02 <shachaf> Not clear what my thought process was there.
05:29:52 <oerjan> nitia, nitia, where art thou, nitia
05:31:15 <oerjan> wait, is that the one which actually says wherefore
05:31:47 <shachaf> oerjan: it also actualy says romeo hth
05:32:12 <shachaf> also there's no comma there
05:32:18 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan GreyKnight oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
05:32:38 <oerjan> stupid shakespeare ruining everything
05:33:13 <shachaf> Sgeo: Bike goes by Nitya sometimes.
05:33:39 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
05:36:05 <Sgeo> nitia isn't a thing
05:36:40 <Sgeo> izabera, nitia is the inventory of the BBC
05:36:53 <izabera> oh ok now everything makes sense
05:37:21 <Sgeo> She is also the inventory of the BBC, which explains how she is the inventorn of all things.
05:37:22 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> \oren\: oh I see what happened, I had somehow conflated "conspicuous" and "suspicious" <-- itym "sufflated" hth
05:37:53 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs.
05:38:17 <shachaf> `learn An inventory is a collection of inventions.
05:38:18 <izabera> did she only invent things or also not things?
05:39:01 <lambdabot> KAFK 280515Z AUTO 18010KT 10SM CLR 18/17 A2994 RMK AO2 T01800166
05:39:07 <oerjan> did HackEgo deadlock or something
05:39:40 <zzo38> BBC is a British television show, don't you know that????? It is the least bad television show in the world (approximately).
05:39:56 <lambdabot> LIMK 280455Z 35008KT 9999 SCT040 11/11 Q1025 RMK BKN SCT060 VAL FOSCHIA VIS MIN 9999
05:40:42 <zzo38> I don't know what "VAL FOSCHIA VIS MIN 9999" means; I don't live in that country.
05:41:03 <zzo38> Then you must learn what it means.
05:41:13 <izabera> foschia is fog, val is valley, 9999 is 9999
05:41:29 <oerjan> it's secret codes for the romans to reconquer the world. fortunately they're very bad at it.
05:42:46 <oerjan> VIS MIN probably means "visibility minimum" or something like that
05:42:57 <lambdabot> KOAK 280453Z 32004KT 10SM FEW010 16/13 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T01610128
05:43:05 <lambdabot> ENVA 280520Z 12004KT 050V180 1500E 9999 R09/P2000N R27/0450 VCFG FEW002 BKN031 08/08 Q1038 TEMPO 0400 FG BKN002 RMK WIND 670FT 16007KT
05:44:01 <zzo38> I think the stuff after "RMK" differs by each country
05:44:10 <oerjan> i suppose the part zzo38 didn't understand is the part that was obvious to izabera
05:44:48 <shachaf> <Mike Stay> "Save the environment: use continuation passing style!"
05:44:51 <izabera> err yes that was totally obvious
05:45:01 <oerjan> "RMK simply means REMARKS and marks the end of the standard metar observation and the beginning of the remarks"
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05:46:06 <oerjan> we saved the environment, and now we have no idea where we put it
05:46:18 <zzo38> oerjan: I know that. But I think the remarks differ by country?
05:46:24 <shachaf> how does continuation passing style work with linear types twh
05:46:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i figure as long as the continuations are single-use, it probably fits perfectly
05:47:15 <oerjan> except then you _have_ to use it...
05:47:34 <shachaf> That doesn't matter, you can always use it if you want, I think.
05:47:41 <shachaf> But single-use continuations are much weaker than multi-use continuations.
05:48:00 <oerjan> which might mean that with linear types, continuations give you no more power than not using them...
05:48:19 <oerjan> i suppose you could switch the call order
05:48:20 <shachaf> How about LEM in linear logic? I guess you would have to ask which "or" it's using.
05:48:23 <Jafet> You don't have to use it, as long as you keep it around
05:48:43 <oerjan> shachaf: you know you can use ! right
05:49:00 <shachaf> The person defining the primitive?
05:50:21 <oerjan> i suppose you cannot use ! for a continuation that refers to anything not having !
05:51:19 <shachaf> OK, so I guess LEM uses par.
05:52:10 <shachaf> "LEM" stands for "lemma of excluded middle", obviously
05:53:06 <Jafet> "Lemma of excluded middle" my ass
05:55:26 <Jafet> Is a linear continuation more linear than a linear closure?
05:56:14 <oerjan> clearly the optimal linearity is to do linear algebra in linear logic hth
05:56:32 <shachaf> oerjan: linear algebra and linear logic are hardly unrelated tdnh
05:57:09 <oerjan> 2*x + 1 = 1 has no solution; you cannot use x twice hth
05:57:59 <shachaf> x^2 + 1 = 1 is the thing that's disallowed
05:58:37 <shachaf> i'll continue to tdnh as long as you continue to nh hth
06:00:34 <shachaf> perhaps that should be tnhhnbh
06:00:52 <shachaf> perhaps i went too far with "how the tables have turned"
06:39:58 <oerjan> 's ok, i didn't even notice those until now
06:41:21 <shachaf> oerjan: you should play factorio hth
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07:12:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Twanitk1012 * New user account
07:17:21 <zzo38> I would want to see more cards in Magic: the Gathering that are like Sorrow's Path and other cards like how they have done many of the much older cards
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07:44:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44452&oldid=44451 * Rdebath * (+642) Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? -- Still unproven.
07:47:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44453&oldid=44452 * Rdebath * (-1) Hey! It moved!
07:48:28 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M310246364343459938226134’
07:48:28 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
07:48:31 <oerjan> > minBound * (-1) :: Int
08:13:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: that card seems hard to use, because of the damage it deals
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08:37:33 <b_jonas> It turns out that a lot of English words are pronounced with an /a:/ in UK English, but with a /{/ in US English. These include at least "can't, last, fast, past, path, dance, vast".
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08:39:10 <b_jonas> Do you have a list of the most common such words so I can be consciously aware of this and don't get tripped up again? "path" was my current problem.
08:40:10 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not necessarily a US versus UK divide
08:40:26 <ais523> that's one of the strongest linguistic indicators of north England versus south England
08:40:56 <ais523> (and given that my parents come from opposite ends of the country, I tend to pick the pronunciation of that sort of 'a' at randomg)
08:41:36 <myname> i do pronounce the a in dance different than the a in last
08:41:51 <myname> am i doing horrible things there?
08:42:10 <oerjan> typical r'lyeh english
08:46:33 <Jafet> Gathering data, b_jonas, or just passing by to ask?
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08:51:11 <b_jonas> ais523, Jafet: I was partly aware that there are two pronunciations, unconsciously, but it always confuses me because I always think that whatever pronunciation I hear last from a reliably source is the one true pronunciation and the other one I thought before was just an error. "can't" is so common that eventually it began to dawn on me. However,
08:51:46 <b_jonas> I heared "path" pronounced with /{/ in a song now and didn't recognize the word, had to look it up in the lyrics, because I didn't know "path" would be such a word too.
08:52:12 <b_jonas> If I saw a list of these words, I might remember, and might understand the next time someone pronounces such a word with an /{/
08:52:28 <b_jonas> myname: "dance" might be more complicated, apparently the final consonant can vary too.
08:52:52 <b_jonas> ais523: north England versus south England? ok.
08:54:55 <myname> i can live with can't and dance with two different prnounciations, but path or last sound weird with one of them
08:55:33 <b_jonas> myname: "last" as noun or verb?
08:56:18 <myname> are they different? :o
08:56:47 <b_jonas> myname: probably not different. but "last" is a crazy quadruple homonym or something, so who knows?
08:58:07 <b_jonas> apparently "last" has two common etimologies, plus two extra rare ones that I've never even heared about.
08:59:48 <myname> because fuck consistent pronounciation
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09:01:47 <Jafet> You could intersect these two lists: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rhymes:English/æ- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rhymes:English/ɑː-
09:02:11 <Jafet> Unfortunately they're not actual categories for some reason, so catscan can't be used
09:03:01 <b_jonas> Jafet: I'd like to download and parse and transliterate a hundred thousand English pronunciations from en.wiktionary eventually, but sadly en.wiktionary is lacking, there are lots of words that completely lack pronunciatoin entries
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09:03:38 <b_jonas> Though admittedly a lot of words have "rhyme" or pronunciation sound recording entries but no transcribed proununciation
09:07:58 <b_jonas> but sound recordings don't help me
09:08:21 <Jafet> Oh hm, there are three pronounciations for "data".
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10:37:19 <myname> another english fuckup that came in my mind: lose vs loose
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11:18:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44454&oldid=43159 * LegionMammal978 * (+6970) added interpreter
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11:25:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44455&oldid=44454 * LegionMammal978 * (-561) /* Implementation */
11:28:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44456&oldid=44455 * LegionMammal978 * (+66) /* Implementation */
11:31:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44457&oldid=44456 * LegionMammal978 * (-2) /* Examples */
11:38:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44458&oldid=44457 * LegionMammal978 * (+75) /* Implementation */
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12:13:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, maybe DNE as opposed to callCC corresponds to a continuation that you use one way.
12:14:00 <shachaf> ((P -> Q) -> Q) -> P vs. ((P -> Q) -> P) -> P
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13:00:32 <fizzie> Huh. Usually, when that happens, it has just dropped off the channel and not rejoined.
13:03:11 <shachaf> It's been going on for a while.
13:06:26 <fizzie> Still posting those wiki things, though?
13:08:39 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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13:12:17 <fizzie> Hmm. I guess it's just the umlboxery, then.
13:13:32 <fizzie> I see shachaf used "`echo a" while I used "`echo foo" to test.
13:14:10 <shachaf> I assumed messages to HackEgo were confidential.
13:14:29 <fizzie> There's confidential and then there's "confidential".
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13:14:56 <shachaf> didn't they teach you about PII hth
13:16:03 <fizzie> I was hoping to find some error messages in "freenode.log", because I think I found some there earlier.
13:16:09 <fizzie> Sadly, it's just silent.
13:22:39 <fizzie> There's a gazillion defunct python processes, and the lockfile is locked.
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13:26:03 <fizzie> And quite a few umlbox instances too.
13:26:13 <fizzie> bash: lsof: command not found
13:27:16 <fizzie> Thanks to proc, I know 11 processes have the lock file open, but I'm not sure how to tell which one of those is actually holding the exclusive lock.
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13:28:40 <fizzie> Although maybe the one with 100% CPU use is a likely candidate.
13:29:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: what type of lock?
13:30:21 <fizzie> b_jonas: Python fcntl.flock lock.
13:30:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: what operating system?
13:31:22 <fizzie> The 100% CPU use one is the one running `! underload (:*:^):^ but there's supposed to be limits.
13:32:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: open the file from a new process, call fcntl F_GETLK on it on the whole range, examine return value and the l_pid field in the struct flock instance it fills out for you. that should tell the pid of a process that holds a lock.
13:33:31 <fizzie> Or maybe I'll just kill that one umlbox and see if it clears up.
13:33:50 <b_jonas> examine the l_type field in that structure too, if its value is F_UNLCK then there's no lock found, ignore the l_pid field
13:34:25 <HackEgo> Denis_40: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:34:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'inventory': An inventory is a collection of inventions.
13:34:49 <b_jonas> you have to fill l_type to F_WRLCK or F_RDLCK before the call
13:35:00 <fizzie> I think it's slightly moot now.
13:35:27 <b_jonas> sure, I'm just saying in case you meet this in the future
13:35:34 <fizzie> TBD: why umlbox "--timeout 30" didn't timeout.
13:40:01 <Jafet> `learn Afk wrote a famous story about hang.
13:40:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'afk': Afk wrote a famous story about hang.
13:57:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44459&oldid=44453 * Int-e * (+385) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
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14:04:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44460&oldid=44459 * Int-e * (+0) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ I can't count.
14:06:47 <ski> shachaf : "twh" ?
14:07:58 <int-e> that will|would|won't help [the last reading upsets some people here, I don't know why]
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14:15:47 <Taneb> What's your favourite universal turing machine
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14:25:24 <Taneb> Thanks, fizzie, tdg
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14:44:07 <Vorpal> <ais523> in particular, Vorpal quoted a value of "around 2^62 funge cells", which makes it seem quite likely that that's more than 2^64 bytes but that a loop that processed them a cell at a time wouldn't overflow <-- that would make sense if I got a SIGKILL from the OOM killer. Instead I get a SIGSEGV in the end
14:45:01 <Vorpal> <ais523> and then your loop to zero it is trying to zero a lot more memory than you allocated <-- something like that seems more likely yes
14:45:11 <Vorpal> <\oren\> ais523: but if it's overflowing shouldn't the size of the zeroed part also overflow?
14:45:11 <Vorpal> <ais523> \oren\: it depends on how the loops are written
14:45:20 <Vorpal> well it is realloc() to grow, then memset() to zero
14:45:53 <Vorpal> oh the first line was wrong quote from ais, I meant his first quote
14:46:04 <Vorpal> Anyway, I will look at that later, have more urgent stuff to do
14:51:45 <Denis_40> damn, i can't join this channel using pidgin
14:52:00 <Denis_40> well, i can't join this server
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15:28:25 * oerjan skipped the previous logs
15:31:35 <int-e> oerjan: who are you and what have you done to oerjan?
15:31:56 <oerjan> well codu was down then, and tunes's format is awkward to read
15:32:17 <oerjan> especially the wiki announcements
15:32:54 <oerjan> i did, however, search for my nick, so i could have a proper fit tdh
15:32:58 <int-e> clog: show some responsibility, people rely on you.
15:33:22 <int-e> or am I mixing up the logging bots...
15:33:39 <oerjan> you can't be int-e either, he would _never_ register a wiki account hth
15:33:55 <int-e> I was surprised as well.
15:34:10 <int-e> Pleasantly when I realized that the e-mail address was optional.
15:34:23 <oerjan> i recommend adding it hth
15:34:39 <oerjan> unless you have a very reliable password scheme
15:34:59 <int-e> it's quite reliable and insecure.
15:35:18 <int-e> and I can always make another account ;)
15:35:55 <oerjan> VirgoLang had to do that not long ago
15:35:55 <int-e> or go back to being IP addresses
15:36:23 <oerjan> also, you can disable the part where anyone gets to actually send you email.
15:36:58 <int-e> I'd probably do that if I added my email address
15:37:16 <oerjan> also, it's not shown to anyone who isn't an admin, unless you reply to an email
15:37:22 <int-e> anyway, back to writing a review
15:37:41 <oerjan> (i don't know how big an admin one needs to be)
15:38:25 <int-e> that's the first paper I'm reviewing where the word "useless" will very likely make it into the final review...
15:40:07 <oerjan> oh also if you send an email, i guess
15:42:48 <oerjan> as far as i can see, i cannot get to anyone's email address
15:43:22 <oerjan> although perhaps there's just a very secret way of getting to it
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15:52:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44461&oldid=43949 * 166.102.136.7 * (+42)
15:53:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44462&oldid=44461 * 166.102.136.7 * (+0)
15:54:50 <Taneb> oerjan: is it included in a dump of the wiki
15:55:47 <oerjan> i don't know, i've never seen one
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16:00:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44463&oldid=44462 * Oerjan * (-42) Move batch specific comment to that section; remove snarky comment.
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16:07:39 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, maybe DNE as opposed to callCC corresponds to a continuation that you use one way. <-- DNE inatiafw hth
16:08:17 <shachaf> double negation elimination hth
16:13:27 <HackEgo> An inventory is a collection of inventions.
16:13:40 <oerjan> oh that did get through
16:13:58 <oerjan> it was about when i noticed HackEgo got silent
16:14:11 * oerjan didn't notice if it pinged out eventually
16:15:08 <oerjan> `learn The Tanebventory is big. Really big. For one thing, it contains a Hilbert hotel.
16:15:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'tanebventory': The Tanebventory is big. Really big. For one thing, it contains a Hilbert hotel.
16:15:31 <shachaf> i got a response to /msgs to HackEgo ~8 hours after sending them hth
16:16:09 <int-e> oerjan: you know if things like inatiafw are actually readable, you might be a tad too predictable.
16:17:07 <shachaf> int-e: What, so you think oerjan should type out the sentence instead?
16:17:18 <oerjan> _or_ you may be assimilating my secret code precisely according to plan *MWAHAHAHA*
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16:31:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: i am not sure ais523 reads logs
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16:50:13 <int-e> (wrong channel... my ghc at work is broken, stupid Arch Linux)
16:53:43 <shachaf> on the bright side i seem to have gotten approval to have ais523 send me his thesis tdh
16:57:38 <int-e> (it can't find libncursesw.so.5 anymore, since there's now a libncursesw.so.6... I did the wacky thing and added a symlink, which seems to work for now)
17:06:07 <oerjan> ais523 is just about the only person i know of who might actually care...
17:06:35 <shachaf> actually care about the thing i said?
17:06:47 <oerjan> care about getting approval first
17:07:46 <shachaf> <shachaf> Is there a reason you can't publish a copy directly, by the way?
17:07:53 <shachaf> <ais523> shachaf: I'm not sure
17:07:58 <shachaf> <ais523> and so far, haven't done so in case I get into trouble
17:09:21 <shachaf> it wouldn't be great to write your whole PhD thesis and then have it revoked at the last moment because you shared it with someone
17:11:33 <shachaf> very likely to happen, incidentally
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17:12:32 <fizzie> I sent my application-for-this-and-that form today.
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17:12:58 <fizzie> They told me to avoid communicating in any way with the pre-examiners.
17:13:18 <quintopia> how long til you receive it? (or rejection)
17:13:41 <fizzie> They have 8 weeks to submit their opinions.
17:13:58 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 I managed to fix the allocation size overflow. It was indeed an issue that the size parameter to realloc() overflowed, but it also overflowed in memset. What happened was that a *second* stack-stack-operation a bit later ended up memsetting outside the area (which was supposedly already allocated but above the top of the stack)
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17:15:04 <fizzie> And I think there were something like 5 different outcomes, much like in a journal paper submission. "Accept as-is", "accept with minor revisions [checked only by the supervising professor]", "accept with major revisions [re-checked by the pre-examiners]", and then a soft and a hard reject, with some slight difference.
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17:18:59 <fizzie> Thanks. Disclaimer: the details weren't exactly as described above, but close enough for government work.
17:19:40 <quintopia> well i didnt read up far enough to see details so i wont be disappointed
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17:36:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw if you can trick fungot into allocating between 2^61+1 and 2^64-1 funge cells in a stack-stack operation, there is a possibility that remote code execution could be possible, depending on what memory it can then manage to overwrite
17:36:27 <fungot> Vorpal: i haven't considered dynamic-wind yet. spent yesterday making various packagings of my code, where compilers output proofs that machine code is _clearly_ more powerful, why don't many implementations have that mechanism? has there been any noise about the ephemeral jit?
17:36:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:37:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, so if you feel that affects you, you should update
17:37:19 <Vorpal> Also, I should like totally get a CVE for this :D
17:37:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: Critical Funge98 vulnerability: Update now! | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | https://esolangs.org/.
17:40:36 <int-e> ok, review done. "useless" didn't quite make it; it became "virtually useless"
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17:50:02 <hppavilion[1]> I GOT SYNTAX HIGHLIGHTING WORKING PERFECTLY IN MY λ-CALCULATOR!
17:50:25 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, it's the order that you /create/ formatting tags that determines precedence, NOT the application order
17:51:19 <gamemanj> This bot syntax doesn't work here AFAIK, but never-the-less:
17:51:55 <int-e> @karma hppavilion[1]
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17:52:32 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: well, it's accumulated from a lot of channels
17:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> * Comments are a moderate shade of red and italicizid
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17:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> * Parens are bold and bright red (I'll probably only make it so that is in affect on nearby cursor)
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17:54:16 <hppavilion[1]> There's a theta combinator that is equivalent to "YO"
17:56:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it's likely you could only trick fungot into doing that if you found an arbitrary funge execution vulnerability in it, and that would be bad even without the crash.
17:56:06 <fungot> fizzie: scheme48 doesn't have a way
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17:57:15 <int-e> fungot: good for scheme, but what about funge?
17:57:15 <fungot> int-e: really nice btw.
17:57:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, if you can trick it into running this program with srandom(4) set at program start, you will get a stack overflow:
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17:57:44 <Vorpal> No, I have no idea how
17:58:10 <hppavilion[1]> (S((S((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)S)(KK))(S(KS)K)(S(SKK)(SKK)))((S((S(KS)K)()S(KS)KS)(KK))(S(KS)K)(S(SKK)(SKK))))(S(SKK))
17:58:24 <hppavilion[1]> That, though I might've majorly screwed up on the parenthesis
17:59:15 <hppavilion[1]> I just put parenthesis around evey combinator expansion. That's correct, right?
17:59:42 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], what is it that you are doing syntax highlighting in?
18:00:17 <hppavilion[1]> I'm using Tkinter as that's what comes with Python by default, and I don't want to force any potential users to install anything more than python
18:00:51 <hppavilion[1]> I /might've/ used Kivy if I could've gotten it working on Anaconda, but then everyone who used the application would have to do the same
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18:01:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems any program on the format "0000...000?kk followed by 0000...0000y has this behaviour on srandom(4) heh
18:02:41 <hppavilion[1]> There's a Bald Eagle combinator: Ê = B(BBB)(B(BBB))
18:03:51 <hppavilion[1]> (Ê = (S(KS)K)((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)(S(KS)K))((S(KS)K)((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)(S(KS)K))))
18:06:12 <zzo38> I would want to be able to use "one-time-pad" protocol which can wrap other protocols although it would be most useful for wrapping SSH and does not seem useful for others.
18:06:22 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], what is anaconda?
18:06:53 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Python distribution that includes the SciPy stack and a bunch of other science libraries that need to be compiled with python to work
18:06:58 <Vorpal> Anyway pip allows for installing anything easily into a virtualenv or into ~/.local/lib/python-3x/
18:07:38 <hppavilion[1]> Though I would use the conda virtualenv thing, most likely. Conda is better than pip, afaict
18:07:42 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], oh? You can't install numpy and scipy with pip/setuptools after like normal modules?
18:08:00 <Vorpal> Never dealt with those libraries
18:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> They're written in C and are part of python, like the Math library or the Socket library
18:08:15 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], you can write .so for python to load
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18:08:35 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think that works though, or else I wouldn't have needed to switch to anaconda xD
18:08:57 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], but I built python extensions in C before, so I know that parts work
18:09:05 <Vorpal> I wonder what scipy does that is so special
18:09:22 <hppavilion[1]> I installed Anaconda because its got all the normal libraries, PLUS it does sciency things
18:09:42 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: High-efficiency array manipulation (multiplying by scalars, etc.)
18:10:00 <hppavilion[1]> It's good for data, I hear. I really just got it as a "Just in case" measure
18:10:04 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], seems doable as a normal extension too
18:10:29 <Vorpal> I just use normal python 3.5
18:10:45 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], it is fairly efficient, it is the same interface that python itself uses internally :P
18:10:54 <Vorpal> For defining methods I mean
18:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> I will use Python 3.5 as soon as Anaconda comes in that version. I'm excited about the @ operator and the asynch for loops and things
18:11:11 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], take a look at python's C API
18:11:20 <zzo38> I did think of several things to avoid problems that bad implementations would have, including problem if someone tries to send random data to the server, problem with synchronization, problem if someone in the middle changes a few bits, etc
18:11:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44464&oldid=44460 * Rdebath * (+405) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
18:11:37 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], So I see no reason for numpy to not just do that so far
18:12:43 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], this seems to indicate it can be built out of tree, but needs a lot of dependencies: https://www.scipy.org/scipylib/building/linux.html#generic-instructions
18:12:51 <Vorpal> Also not buildable with pip maybe?
18:13:29 <hppavilion[1]> I just kind of assumed it is because I wasn't sure if C can dynamically load other executables xD
18:13:44 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], haven't coded much C I guess?
18:14:16 <Vorpal> Anyway. C can't. C has no concept of directories even! But most operating systems can
18:14:20 <hppavilion[1]> I could /probably/ figure out how to implement a linked list in about half an hour xD
18:14:42 <Vorpal> So basically C on POSIX and C on Windows can both load dynamic libraries
18:14:51 <Vorpal> In completely different ways
18:15:12 <Vorpal> Well, not completely. But windows does it weirdly.
18:15:32 <hppavilion[1]> Or is it POSIX that does it weirdly? Duhn duhn DUHN!
18:15:34 <Vorpal> What with the separate heaps and what not
18:15:49 <Vorpal> POSIX doesn't create a heap per .dll/.so like windows does
18:16:14 <hppavilion[1]> They're trees where a child is always less data than a parent, correct?
18:16:14 <Vorpal> As opposed to not getting the stack?
18:16:21 <Vorpal> No that is a different heap
18:16:34 <Vorpal> heap in this context is where you do dynamic allocations
18:16:39 <Vorpal> that are not on the stack
18:17:38 <Vorpal> You have quite a bit to learn about the low level programming parts. Manual memory management will be a shock to you.
18:18:19 <Vorpal> And of course, the compiler just assuming you know what you do when you access data outside what you allocated. That is always fun too
18:18:53 <hppavilion[1]> I understand the fact that C has manual memory management xD
18:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> I've read about C, and done a tiny bit of code, but never actually done a large project
18:19:19 <hppavilion[1]> If I do any C, it'll probably actually just be C++
18:19:21 <Vorpal> I'm currently trying to come up with a way to neatly handle recursion limiting in k when fuzz testing this funge interpreter. I don't think there is a way to do it non-messily. Hm
18:19:46 <Vorpal> To many #ifdefs everywhere...
18:20:08 <hppavilion[1]> Why is there no do...for loop? Wait, no, stupid question.
18:20:46 <Vorpal> do while loops exist, but apparently not in python
18:20:55 <Vorpal> I was looking for one earlier today
18:21:17 <Vorpal> I ended up doing a while True: ... if condition: break
18:21:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44465 * Timwi * (+11068) '''Espro''' (short for ''Esperanta Programado'') is an unfinished idea for a programming language that uses [[w:Esperanto|]] inflection and grammar.
18:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> There are no curly brackets in python, unless you specifically request them from __future__
18:21:48 <Vorpal> That is a joke in future iirc
18:22:20 <myname> i'd like lojban instead of esperanto more. on the other hand, making lojban into,a programming language would probably end up in prolog
18:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> It still doesn't sit right, and Python /probably/ should support that
18:22:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44466&oldid=44465 * Timwi * (-33)
18:22:49 <hppavilion[1]> Why don't we submit a PEP and request do:...while?
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18:23:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44467&oldid=44466 * Timwi * (+8)
18:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> with var as value: code is an interesting construct
18:23:27 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], well, iirc C# has something similar
18:23:41 <Vorpal> But it has been like 5+ years since I wrote any C#
18:23:41 <myname> hppavilion[1]: you cannot put the while in the same column as the : as it would end the block alltogether
18:24:14 <myname> if the python folks couldn't even make switch happrn, they will not make do while happen
18:24:16 <Vorpal> myname, still a "one iteration, then check" syntax would be useful
18:24:31 <hppavilion[1]> It would end the block, but if it's a do block it'd make sure it is followed by a while()
18:24:43 <Vorpal> myname, maybe: while-after condition: code
18:24:59 <hppavilion[1]> I like python because you can declare variables inside blocks. Until I thought about it, I wondered how this code would work in C:
18:25:07 <Vorpal> myname, come on, switch would be easy, syntax-wise
18:25:40 <hppavilion[1]> Switch would be easy in syntax AND it wouldn't look completely awful
18:25:57 <Vorpal> Though you should really do switch like erlang
18:26:01 <myname> Vorpal: it would, but they cried about how 2 columns are way too much
18:26:10 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Except in python, case <val> could have <val> be a variable
18:26:22 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], don't see an issue with that
18:26:33 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it's easy in c. void pointer :p
18:26:37 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], it is just a glorified if-elif-else really
18:26:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44468&oldid=44467 * Timwi * (+240) /* Types */
18:27:30 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1],"if(cond){int var;} else {long var;}", what about it?
18:27:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Perhaps they could add an optional "end" keyword after blocks of code and call it a non-special case, so they could validate Vorpal's do...while syntax. Then again, that'd prevent us from making end a var...
18:27:37 <Vorpal> those are two different var
18:28:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44469&oldid=44468 * Timwi * (-21) /* Types */
18:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: I know, I said that until I remembered that C had scopes like that, I wondered about that
18:28:10 <Vorpal> myname, how does a void pointer help?
18:28:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44470&oldid=44469 * Timwi * (+4) /* Statements */
18:28:29 <myname> you just assign whatever you want to var
18:28:42 <myname> still, there is really no need for that
18:29:28 <Vorpal> I find python's scoping annoying.
18:29:38 <Vorpal> Why doesn't each block introduce a new scope
18:29:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44471&oldid=44470 * Timwi * (+98) /* Statements */
18:29:41 <Vorpal> it makes a lot more sense
18:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: I like it. Not having to declare variables is nice
18:29:49 <Vorpal> And leads to easier to follow code
18:29:55 <Vorpal> well that I'm okay with
18:30:03 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, perl's undef default is just taking it too far
18:30:16 <Vorpal> But if you define a non-existing variable inside a block it shouldn't escape to outside that block
18:30:29 <Vorpal> That is after all how functions work
18:30:32 <myname> can you actually say "i find sth annoying" in english?
18:30:40 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: But there's no curly bracket at the end to catch it when it leaves, just whitespace xD
18:30:40 <Vorpal> So why should sub-function blocks work differently
18:30:45 <Vorpal> myname, no idea, I'm a Swede
18:31:00 <myname> it'd be oerfextly fine in german, too
18:31:09 <myname> i am unsure in englidh, though
18:31:27 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], short for "something"
18:31:36 <Vorpal> Nobody says "iirc" either, they spell it out
18:32:05 <hppavilion[1]> BUt you can definitely say "I find something annoying" in english, at least grammar-wise.
18:32:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44472&oldid=44471 * Timwi * (+3) /* Statements */
18:32:25 <hppavilion[1]> You /might/ get a few funny looks, but it isn't an invalid sentence
18:33:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44473&oldid=44472 * Timwi * (+0) /* Expressions */
18:33:38 <myname> i'd say "i think sth is annoying" to work around
18:33:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44474&oldid=44473 * Timwi * (-1) /* Expressions */
18:34:03 <hppavilion[1]> You still are being a bit vague, but that's still valid.
18:34:47 <hppavilion[1]> You can say "I find sth annoying", but it isn't very clear what you're talking about, unless context /makes/ it clear
18:36:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44475&oldid=44474 * Timwi * (+0) /* Expressions */
18:36:54 <hppavilion[1]> Should I modify my λ-calculuator's syntax so that {...} is always a name?
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18:45:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44476&oldid=44475 * Timwi * (+717) /* Properties */ Indexers
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18:46:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44477&oldid=44476 * Timwi * (+131) /* Example */
18:47:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inflection]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44478&oldid=11908 * Timwi * (+105) [[Espo]]
18:48:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inflection]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44479&oldid=44478 * Timwi * (+1) oops
18:48:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inflection]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44480&oldid=44479 * Timwi * (+10)
18:48:30 <oerjan> myname: i find your lack of grammar disturbing
18:49:37 <myname> correct me whereever you can
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18:51:50 * oerjan notices a strong wind blowing
18:52:18 <oerjan> myname: i believe you missed the ironic reference hth
18:52:55 <myname> so, is "i find" really a thing?
18:53:09 <myname> it always looks like a false friend to me
18:53:13 <oerjan> if darth vader can say it, do you really dare to protest?
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18:53:31 <myname> i don't know if darth vader says it
18:53:51 <oerjan> "i find your lack of faith disturbing" is the exact quote.
18:53:51 <gamemanj> I find that finding things is an entertaining time-waster.
18:54:13 <myname> i learned not that far ago that germany is actually one of the few nations that synchronize practically everything in tv and cinemas
18:54:16 <gamemanj> (Exceptions: If they're important things. Then they're a frustrating time-waster.)
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18:54:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, any idea what filmjölk is in English btw?
18:54:43 <Vorpal> Just "sour milk" doesn't seem specific enough
18:54:57 <oerjan> myname: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE
18:55:02 <Vorpal> yoghurt is pretty much sour milk too
18:55:16 <myname> i discussed with someone from norway who said that germans are sp
18:55:22 <myname> are horrible at englidh
18:55:55 <myname> at that point i learned that english movies and series are only subtitled there
18:56:12 <myname> which he thought leads to a better understanding of the english language
18:56:38 <Vorpal> myname, same in Sweden, only subtitling
18:56:51 <Vorpal> Unless it is a kids movies for ages that are not expected to be able to read
18:57:30 <myname> never thought about it
18:58:37 <myname> it was a natural thing to me that shows on tv are in german
19:00:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm pretty sure no one has any idea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filmj%C3%B6lk#In_English
19:01:18 <hppavilion[1]> I added an option in my λ-calculuator to use ≡ instead of =
19:02:39 <FireFly> myname: I think that helped me a lot. Another thing is that games typically aren't translated at all, so if you want to enjoy video games with dialogue, you're kinda forced to learn English
19:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> I should /probably/ actually make it start doing λ-calculus.
19:03:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, I just wanted to translate a recipe that uses it to an English person I know
19:03:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, also filmjölk tastes awesome
19:03:35 * oerjan avoids sour dairy like the plague.
19:03:51 <oerjan> with a few exceptions for sour cream
19:03:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, why? yoghurt I can understand
19:03:57 <olsner> I think filmjölk has slightly different cultures from other similar things, so it should probably be called filmjölk
19:04:17 <Vorpal> olsner, well technically I love A-fil, as opposed to the other types. I like that taste best
19:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, after 30 seconds on wikipedia i can tell you that there's no english equivalent
19:04:35 <FireFly> According to the wikipedia article linked above, cultured buttermilk apparently acts as a substitute for filmjölk in recipes
19:04:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, fair enough. You should import it and try it though
19:04:53 <FireFly> so you might just write that instead
19:04:59 <Vorpal> Never heard of that before. What exactly is buttermilk anyway?
19:05:04 <oerjan> Vorpal: well the section suggests a substitute
19:05:38 * oerjan swats FireFly for stealing his words while he was checking them
19:05:45 <olsner> buttermilk might be, like, kärnmjölk
19:06:08 <Vorpal> I don't think I ever seen kärnmjölk in Sweden in a shop. I heard the word yes, but that is about it
19:06:20 * oerjan does it again properly -----###
19:06:26 <Vorpal> "Kärnmjölk ingår inte längre i svenska livsmedelsaffärernas vanliga sortiment. Norrmejerier upphörde som sista större svenska mejeri att saluföra kärnmjölk till privatpersoner i början av 2000-talet. Idag går den större delen av kärnmjölk som produceras i Sverige till bagerierna."
19:06:37 <Vorpal> So it is no longer common in Sweden
19:06:47 <FireFly> I guess we use filmjölk as a substitute for buttermilk in recipes, then :P
19:06:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is buttermilk something that can be easily found in UK?
19:07:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right, here it is impossible to find in normal shops apparently
19:10:07 <hppavilion[1]> I am bored of my λ-calculator for now. I will finish it later.
19:11:54 <Vorpal> That would be good. Finally someone getting around to that
19:12:38 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: I mean finish λ-calculus. That's different.
19:13:04 <hppavilion[1]> I wouldn't do everything IN λ-calculus, I would just make the interpreter complete enough for my liking xD
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19:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> Combinatory Logic kind of got rolled into λ-calculus.
19:15:15 <hppavilion[1]> (because you can define SK in λ-calculus easily, and the syntax is then the same, so...)
19:15:54 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], learn haskell next?
19:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: So what do you think? Set theory? Or is there some other really cool and somewhat simple to emulate mathematical system LIKE λ-calculus or SK?
19:16:48 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], I have no idea, I'm more of a low level programmer. Heck I do C/C++ real time system programming for a living.
19:18:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44481&oldid=44477 * Timwi * (+3) /* Types */
19:19:13 <hppavilion[1]> "I do C/C++ real time system programming for a living." just sounded impressive
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19:20:04 <Vorpal> myname, thanks. C++ is a mess :P
19:20:14 <Vorpal> myname, but real time programming is fun
19:20:15 <myname> c++ is the least funny thing i can imagine
19:21:02 <Vorpal> myname, making big 200 metric ton machines move around and autonomously drill holes for blasting has a certain hard to match quality :)
19:21:16 <Vorpal> myname, which is my job :)
19:22:57 <Vorpal> myname, anyway when doing hard real time programming there aren't a lot of alternatives. There is Ada, Real time java, C and C++. And sure someone has made a proof of concept in haskell and a few other languages. But nothing that is production readyu
19:25:10 <Vorpal> Hm I wonder how real time java gets around having a garbage collector?
19:25:20 <myname> Vorpal: sounds a lot like fpga programming to me
19:25:42 <myname> interesting field where you can do lots of things in theory
19:25:43 <Vorpal> myname, ugh, thank god it isn't that. I have done some VHDL at university. It was... interesting.
19:25:52 <hppavilion[1]> (Specifically, te fact that any program can be represented by a number of ιs)
19:25:52 <Vorpal> But that is very different
19:25:59 <myname> and in practice you have to do vhdl
19:26:07 <Vorpal> myname, the stuff I do still run on normal x86 and ARM systems
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19:26:57 <myname> i hate vhdl with passion, even though i have not wrote a line in it
19:26:59 <Vorpal> Industrial computers sure, with good control over BIOS and so on (you can't have BIOS suddenly running and blocking your code if you are doing hard real time after all!), but still not an FPGA
19:27:09 <Vorpal> myname, why? Prefer verilog? Never tried that
19:27:31 <oerjan> ais523 is the fpga guy around here
19:27:34 <myname> i'd love something haskellish
19:28:15 <int-e> Vorpal: they don't, they interleave the garbage collector and mutator. http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/j-rtj4/ was the first thing google found for me, looks relevant and neat
19:28:21 <fizzie> We had someone doing audio processing stuff on FPGAs visiting the university once.
19:28:56 <fizzie> I don't think that's very popular; it's usually just software on general-purpose CPUs, or software on DSPs if you want to get fancy.
19:28:59 <myname> i'd love to build my own cpu with dpgas, but sadly i'd never use them
19:29:11 <hppavilion[1]> We can represent ANY program in Turing-space as a string of 1s and 0s, where 1 is the iota combinator and ` is a grouper (`)
19:29:22 <fizzie> I think they had some interesting algorithms that were very fpga-friendly.
19:31:51 <hppavilion[1]> Seriously. No one? A way to represent programs in terms of bits?
19:32:10 <hppavilion[1]> Certainly a step up (or down) from character-by-character
19:33:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um https://esolangs.org/wiki/Iota
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19:34:03 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose I can't have been the first one to come up with it xD
19:34:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44482&oldid=44481 * Timwi * (+1441)
19:34:42 <oerjan> i thought that's what you were talking about until you started reinventing pieces of it
19:35:00 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: are you aware of tromp's binary lambda calculus (and earlier, combinatory logic) https://tromp.github.io/cl/cl.html ?
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19:35:22 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well that's pretty trivial
19:35:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course, but I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned before xD
19:35:51 <Vorpal> int-e, that is a really interesting page to me
19:36:42 * int-e is ten years behind on the subject (real time, real time GC) or so.
19:36:56 <Vorpal> int-e, it has an interesting approach to memory fragmentation
19:37:17 <Vorpal> int-e, read the section of arraylets, I never seen that approach before
19:38:20 <int-e> hmm, so obvious (in retrospect, of course)
19:39:42 <int-e> And I guess it's a real time thing; the extra indirection *will* hurt performance, but you don't care so much about that as long as response times keep within their limits.
19:40:09 <Vorpal> int-e, consistency is always more important than raw performance
19:40:47 <Vorpal> int-e, also using a real time system is rather nice. The GUI just runs beautifully after startup finished. Never pausing or lagging.
19:41:02 <Vorpal> (In the system I run on, startup is not real time)
19:42:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44483&oldid=44482 * Timwi * (+832)
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19:49:06 <Vorpal> int-e, I still wouldn't want to use real time java myself
19:50:24 <Vorpal> int-e, I think using reference counting is a much better approach. And it has better performance. Combined with the right allocator (perhaps memory pools) you can still ensure properties reasonable for a real time system. Though of course, you will have to be careful of cycles
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19:53:40 <int-e> I'm not sure. Reference counting has worse performance when there are many references passed around and a lot of garbage produced... however... that's likely not the case with real-time applications, especially when the developers are careful.
19:54:20 <int-e> (for me, "Java" would be the thing that turns me away rather than the GC ;-) )
19:54:36 <b_jonas> didn't you get that backwards?
19:54:58 <Vorpal> int-e, We use a lot of reference counting at work for stuff like messages between threads (both point to point and broadcast events). But you have to ensure that the number of objects reachable from such an event is fairly small. Don't do a long linked list using reference counting for example
19:55:12 <Vorpal> Just do a single structure, perhaps pointing to one or two other allocations
19:55:44 <int-e> Oh, DOpE is still a thing, nice.
19:56:10 <Vorpal> it certainly sounds dope of course
19:56:17 <int-e> now commercial, apparently. http://www.genode-labs.com/products/graphical-user-interfaces?lang=en
19:56:41 <int-e> Vorpal: you spoke of real-time GUIs and that reminded me of this.
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19:57:15 <int-e> (well, technically you didn't, you spoke of a real-time system with a gui)
19:57:21 <Vorpal> int-e, oh yeah, we actually run the GUI as a non-realtime thread
19:57:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44484&oldid=44483 * Timwi * (+1412)
19:57:34 <Vorpal> Though it still runs smooth thanks to the rest of the system being real time
19:58:01 <Vorpal> int-e, lets just say that there is no way we would run QT as anything other than a non-realtime thread
19:58:23 <Vorpal> not that it doesn't run smooth, but it would be way too complicated to show it behaves properly
19:58:45 <int-e> I wouldn't know where to start
19:59:12 <Vorpal> int-e, that is a key aspect of practical real time programming: Figuring out which parts actually need to be real time
19:59:21 <Vorpal> And try to keep those parts to a minimum
20:01:30 <Vorpal> that page int-e: "Scout demonstrates that a useful and graphically appealing graphical applications can be realized at low source-code complexity."
20:01:35 <int-e> The motivation for DoPE, as I recall, was having several animations (video and the like) run concurrently, smoothly... which at the time the project was started (about 10 years ago, I think) was not yet solved by just having over-powerful hardware.
20:01:40 <Vorpal> I beg to differ on the second point
20:02:01 <Vorpal> It looks like a bastard of the 90s and E17
20:02:56 <int-e> Oh the main guy there is (or was) an Atari demo coder.
20:02:58 <Vorpal> int-e, we use hardware acceleration for decoding video from cameras on the machine (kind of useful to show when you are driving them remote from a control room)
20:03:32 <int-e> Anyway, I'm mostly reminiscing.
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20:12:41 <hppavilion[1]> 0 is the successor function (but with two arguments)
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21:41:18 <ais523> shachaf: ooh, I was hoping that's what they'd say
21:42:00 <ais523> can you forward me the email?
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21:50:18 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making /another/ program, this one called Junction, for fun.
21:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically a simple programming language and a bunch of APIs thrown together
21:53:48 <hppavilion[1]> So you can make it read Skype messages (Skype API) and speak them (OS-specific speech API) in German (google translate API)
21:55:00 <hppavilion[1]> (Yes, I've used If-this-then-that, and this is inspired as a FOSS desktop version of it)
21:59:41 <hppavilion[1]> (This one is more for developers than for everyday users)
22:05:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44485&oldid=44484 * Timwi * (+429)
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22:05:29 <shachaf> ais523: I don't think I have your email address.
22:06:10 <ais523> shachaf: ais523@bham.ac.uk (that one might not work much longer but it works right now)
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22:11:39 <ais523> shachaf: OK, let me just check my filesystem and try to find the right version of the thesis
22:12:00 <ais523> (although I guess you don't particularly care which specific version it is, it's probably best to find one with typos, errors, etc., corrected)
22:15:07 <shachaf> Not sure how soon I'll be able to look at it, though.
22:17:58 <fizzie> Or is that, too, a secret?
22:19:04 <shachaf> ais523: section 2.1 should probably say "finite subsets" hth
22:19:21 <shachaf> I guess you're past the point where that sort of thing is helpful, though.
22:19:42 <shachaf> fizzie: Not sure what I'm allowed to say.
22:20:57 <Taneb> Does GHC's RankNTypes work for infinite N?
22:21:13 <shachaf> GHC doesn't support infinite types.
22:21:55 <shachaf> Is there a name for a thing which is like a multiset but can have a negative number of elements?
22:22:01 <ais523> the number of pages isn't a secret
22:22:06 <shachaf> A better name than "free abelian group" or "free Z-module".
22:22:19 <shachaf> I was using that thing recently, anyway.
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22:24:41 <fizzie> I don't know about a mathy name, but: "This package provides an efficient implementation of so-called signed multisets (also known as hybrid sets or shadow sets), which generalise multisets by allowing for negative membership."
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22:24:56 <fizzie> I've never heard of any of those names, and shadow sets seems to be Dark Souls terminology.
22:25:06 <fizzie> While the hybrid set search is just full of golf clubs.
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22:31:24 <hppavilion[1]> So does anyone have any ideas for particularly useful APIs I could integrate into my APIzer?
22:33:39 <shachaf> But "free Z-module" is shorter than "signed multiset".
22:35:30 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, I'm even thanked in this thesis.
22:36:46 <fizzie> "free Z-module!" is what they chant on the streets, to protest against the inhumane treatment of Z-module.
22:38:33 <fizzie> I didn't include the preface with thanks in the version I sent today, because apparently you're supposed to thank the preliminary examiners, and it's not usual to thank them in advance.
22:38:45 <fizzie> AIUI, that's also why there are no thanks for the opponent in the printed version.
22:39:13 <ais523> fizzie: what thesis defence method's used in the country you're thinking of there (presumably Finland)?
22:40:52 <fizzie> ais523: Finland. There's a "public examination", where you give a understandable-to-a-layperson half-an-hour lecture, and then the (usually singular, sometimes dual) opponent asks questions for, on average, two hours.
22:41:49 <shachaf> do they even have snakes in finland?
22:41:57 <fizzie> The audience may also ask questions, or announce that they are going to leave a written note, which they then have a week to do.
22:42:02 <fizzie> Except that nobody ever does.
22:42:13 <fizzie> It's kind of like that question they ask in weddings.
22:42:14 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, that's very different from the UK
22:42:25 <ais523> (the public exam, that is, not the weddings)
22:42:26 <fizzie> (Not the "do you" one, the "does anyone object" one.)
22:42:45 <fizzie> I haven't heard of anyone failing the defence, although I understand it is still possible.
22:43:03 <fizzie> Normally, though, if it's actually your own work and you've passed the preliminary examination, it shouldn't happen.
22:43:27 <ais523> the UK system is: first your university finds two examiners qualified to understand and assess your thesis (this often takes months, because PhDs can be very specific and the one or two other researchers in the field might be busy)
22:43:50 <fizzie> That sounds approximate to our "preliminary examiners", of which there also two.
22:43:54 <ais523> then you send them copies of the thesis to look through, and they write a preliminary report on what the thesis is like
22:44:22 <fizzie> Yes. In Finland they have 8 weeks to prepare their reports.
22:44:32 <ais523> after that, a meeting is arranged with the examiners, and they're allowed to ask you any questions they want, to try to clarify things they didn't understand and ensure you know what you're talking about
22:44:38 <ais523> and ask you "did you consider X", and the like
22:45:43 <ais523> the examiners then get to make one of these recommendations: accept the thesis as-is (this basically never happens); accept the thesis after making minor corrections; accept the thesis after making major corrections; reject the thesis and allow resubmission of a revised version; reject the thesis outright
22:46:01 <ais523> (plus a few others along the lines of "this isn't worthy of a PhD, but is worth a master's degree")
22:46:19 <ais523> minor and major corrections are the most common; they give a list of corrections they want to see
22:46:36 <ais523> which is anything from typo corrections, to asking you to redo a proof or perhaps even write a new chapter
22:46:37 <fizzie> That too is pretty much the same, although the details of the allowed responses vary.
22:46:51 <ais523> minor corrections are those which don't require new research
22:47:04 <fizzie> And also I think we expect just a statement from the examiners, and it's the Doctoral Programme Committee which makes the decision, based on the statements.
22:47:18 <ais523> (also reject and resubmit can only be given once against any given student, after that you either have to accept or reject outright)
22:47:38 <fizzie> Sounds much like a journal submission.
22:47:44 <ais523> at least in my case, what happened is that the examiners made lists of corrections before the exam
22:48:39 <ais523> and then in the meeting, a major part was running through all the potentially controversial corrections and asking me to either defend what was literally written there or agree with them that it was wrong
22:49:14 <fizzie> So far it sounds quite similar, except we don't have a meeting between the student and the pre-examiners. Although you get to prepare a written response before the Committee makes their decisions.
22:49:25 <ais523> the meeting is a pretty big part of it here
22:49:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44486&oldid=44485 * Timwi * (+563)
22:50:02 <fizzie> As an aside, here's something that kind of implies how rare it is to get rejected at the defence stage:
22:50:06 <fizzie> [[ As formal decisions on the doctoral dissertation are not made until the conclusion of the public examination, invitations to the post-doctoral party were traditionally not sent in advance. In the past, the doctoral candidate contacted the Opponent before the public examination to enquire whether the doctoral candidate could make dinner arrangements, and after obtaining a positive response, ...
22:50:11 <ais523> basically, I think it has three purposes: a) check for plagiarism by ensuring the student understands their work; b) work out if something wrong is the result of a fundamental or superficial problem; c) allow the student to fix mistakes made by the examiners
22:50:12 <fizzie> ... the candidate "hinted" at the successful outcome to the guests to be invited. Nowadays, however, doctoral candidates send invitations in advance. Permission to defend the dissertation in a public examination, given by the Doctoral Programme Committee, is sufficient indication of the quality of the dissertation. ]]
22:52:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44487&oldid=44464 * Int-e * (+243) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ not our bug (tm)
22:52:24 <ais523> I guess the system's actually quite different then
22:52:58 <ais523> because the meeting with the examiners is one of the most important parts in the UK, and the result is often in flux before it happens
22:53:58 <fizzie> I don't think we have an explicit plagiarism check until the public examination. I guess it hasn't really been much of a problem. As for b and c, three of the five possible decisions the Committee can make involve sending the revised manuscript back to the examiners to check that they accept the corrections.
22:54:07 <int-e> the capital I annoys me.
22:54:11 <fizzie> (And you get to defend your choices in writing, if you like.)
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22:54:42 <HackEgo> _denis_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:57:32 <fizzie> Quite a lot of places seem to have a 5-6 person panel doing the live interrogation part.
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23:00:57 <tswett> Man... that disjoint-set forest algorithm.
23:01:31 <int-e> love it, except when coding Haskell
23:03:51 <tswett> Just use that other Haskell.
23:04:29 <tswett> The one that lets you do stuff like that.
23:04:33 <HackEgo> Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
23:04:56 <int-e> maybe I should do that
23:06:01 <tswett> Now, what's Haskell as designed by the makers of C++? That'd probably be LISP.
23:13:27 <tswett> FireFly: the one described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjoint-set_data_structure#Disjoint-set_forests
23:19:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44488&oldid=44486 * Timwi * (+3408)
23:19:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44489&oldid=44488 * Timwi * (+14)
23:19:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44490&oldid=44489 * Timwi * (+28)
23:22:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44491&oldid=44490 * Timwi * (+1) /* Properties and Indexers / Ecoj kaj Indeksiloj */
23:24:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44492&oldid=44491 * Timwi * (+2)
23:25:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44493&oldid=44492 * Timwi * (-6) /* Properties and Indexers / Ecoj kaj Indeksiloj */
23:26:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44494&oldid=44493 * Timwi * (+51) /* Example / Ekzemplo */
23:27:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44495&oldid=44494 * Timwi * (+72) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:29:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44496&oldid=44495 * Timwi * (+139) /* Statements / Ordonoj */
23:30:08 <\oren\> today's news: trump trumpets trumped-up tax cuts!
23:32:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44497&oldid=44496 * Timwi * (+170) /* Statements / Ordonoj */
23:33:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44498&oldid=44497 * Timwi * (+61) /* Statements / Ordonoj */
23:35:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44499&oldid=44498 * Timwi * (+46) /* Example / Ekzemplo */
23:35:29 <\oren\> (I don't actually care about american politics but i just wanted to say that)
23:37:35 <tswett> You know what's better than tax cuts?
23:41:00 <shachaf> read my lips: no new tuxes
23:43:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44500&oldid=44499 * Timwi * (+826) /* Example / Ekzemplo */ Binary search
23:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44501&oldid=44500 * Timwi * (-13)
23:45:06 <ais523> so is Trump still looking like potentially a serious candidate, then?
23:45:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44502&oldid=44501 * Timwi * (-1)
23:45:16 <ais523> I sort-of assumed that he'd have given up by now
23:53:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44503&oldid=44502 * Timwi * (+0) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:54:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44504&oldid=44503 * Timwi * (-1) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:55:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44505&oldid=44504 * Timwi * (+7) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:58:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44506&oldid=44505 * Timwi * (+4) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:59:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm a member of the opposing Grand fungot Pary
23:59:50 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: foxfire says: re: fnord?? 6"