00:01:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44507&oldid=44506 * Timwi * (+0)
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00:14:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44508&oldid=44507 * Timwi * (+29) /* Examples / Ekzemploj */
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00:25:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44509&oldid=44508 * Timwi * (+162) some categories // kelkaj kategorioj
00:26:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Works in progress]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44510&oldid=40574 * Timwi * (+65) [[Espro]]
00:26:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Works in progress]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44511&oldid=44510 * Timwi * (-65) Oh, sorry, didn’t notice the note about solo projects.
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00:32:28 <hppavilion[1]> TXT, MIDI, and PNG are the only ones I've seen so far
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00:51:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44512&oldid=44509 * Timwi * (+19)
00:52:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44513&oldid=44512 * Timwi * (+27)
01:12:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44514&oldid=44513 * Timwi * (+1) /* Types / Tipoj */ Oops! / Upse!
01:14:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44515&oldid=44514 * Timwi * (-1)
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01:18:24 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see a language designed with the goal of being the exact opposite of TC
01:19:05 <ais523> how would you define the opposite of TC, though?
01:19:15 <doesthiswork> hppavilion[1]: I have made a dozen evolution and ecology simulations as a hobby, do you want to collaborate?
01:19:58 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: On a later project, perhaps, but this one is for a school project.
01:20:25 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I don't know. Perhaps it has the power to decrease the computational class of /other/ things?
01:22:13 <doesthiswork> not anymore, my signing certificate is out of date and browsers obsolete
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01:25:58 <ais523> <hppavilion[1]> What weird formats could we encode languages in? <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I don't know. Perhaps it has the power to decrease the computational class of /other/ things?
01:26:12 <ais523> I saw those, went to the toilet (for unrelated reasons), and had an esolang idea by the time I was back at the computer
01:26:20 <ais523> time to make an article
01:26:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44516&oldid=44515 * Timwi * (+395) /* Types / Tipoj */
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01:27:44 <Sgeo> "PLEASE READ!!!
01:27:44 <Sgeo> Facebook will begin stealing your undergarments at midnight tonight if you don't copy & paste this message in the next hour, forward it to everyone in your mailing list, print a hard copy for your grandmother & call your third grade teacher. This is real. I got the message first hand from Elvis who was having lunch with Bigfoot, while riding the Loch Ness monster. It was even on the inside back cover of every tabloid in the grocery store
01:27:44 <Sgeo> checkout line. Not only will Facebook start charging you tomorrow, they are also going to bill your credit card for the past 3 years of services. Luckily, each person who copies & pastes this status will receive a FREE unicorn in the mail tomorrow. However, if you don't repost this status, Facebook code has been set up to automatically set your computer on fire & harm an innocent bunny in the forest! It's all true, it was on the news! It's
01:27:46 <Sgeo> official! Facebook users will believe anything their friends copy & paste into their status (Don't forget the hearts!! All good copy and pastes gotta have hearts if not maybe no unicorn!!)"
01:28:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44517&oldid=44516 * Timwi * (+242)
01:29:33 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: what's your Esolang username?
01:31:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44518&oldid=44517 * Timwi * (+284) /* Statements / Ordonoj */
01:35:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Timwi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44519&oldid=35304 * Timwi * (+69)
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01:36:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44520&oldid=44154 * Timwi * (+0)
01:38:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44521&oldid=44520 * Timwi * (+0) /* Environment */
01:44:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44522&oldid=44521 * Timwi * (-25) No longer output-only since the accumulator now starts with the value of STDIN
01:55:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[90]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44523 * Ais523 * (+3635) new language
01:55:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44524&oldid=44003 * Ais523 * (+8) +[[90]]
01:56:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44525&oldid=44399 * Ais523 * (+9) /* Non-alphabetic */ +[[90]]
01:56:35 <ais523> any opinions on http://esolangs.org/wiki/90 ?
01:57:01 <ais523> this is possibly my weirdest language ever, given that it violates my normal assumptions about what a programming language /is/
02:03:31 <ais523> also one of the least likely to be implemented, I guess, even though it's actually quite easy to implement
02:03:43 <ais523> and one highest up in the "if I'm going to test this, I'll use a VM" stakes
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02:20:22 <coppro> ais523: does a 90 program operate on itself?
02:20:36 <ais523> coppro: no, although two 90 programs operate on each other
02:21:02 <ais523> if it did operate on itself, the details of the compiler would have a large impact on the way the program behaved
02:21:08 <ais523> and thus would probably need to be specified
02:21:24 <ais523> (and one possibility would be to intentionally avoid generating patterns where possible)
02:21:37 <ais523> (so that it would be equivalent to the current case)
02:38:04 <Jafet> Unless you have lots of 1- or 2-byte patterns, it should be possible to avoid all patterns in the source
02:38:51 <Jafet> Actually no, there are things like syscall arguments, which can't be obfuscated
02:40:29 <Jafet> I'm a bit disappointed that this language wasn't invented by kmc
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02:41:54 <ais523> Jafet: why kmc in particular?
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02:49:44 <Jafet> Well, this is a language that can turn a system into a theme park of nopslides
02:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> One that revolves entirely around doing things with pi AND is TC
03:00:21 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should design languages named after /other/ circles of Hell
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03:28:08 <\oren\> dis and malbolge aren't circles of hell though
03:28:43 <\oren\> dis is a city in hell and malbolge is a series of pits
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06:54:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44526&oldid=44113 * Jabutosama * (+129)
06:59:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44527&oldid=44526 * Jabutosama * (+73)
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07:44:49 <b_jonas> You know, the holy war about the one true version control system is worse in some ways than the holy wars about editors or linux-based desktop environments.
07:45:57 <ais523> the editor wars have mostly died down
07:46:05 <ais523> and the DE wars have gone into reverse, since a few years ago
07:46:19 <b_jonas> The problem is that a lot of free software history of the last decade is stored in version control repositories. Most of the time, you just have to take snapshots or releases out of these, or submit unified diffs to maintainers. But when you have to figure out the history of a really messed up bug, you need to be able to read the original version control repo,
07:46:20 <ais523> because people have gone from claiming a particular DE is the best, to trying to find any DE that doesn't suck
07:46:43 <b_jonas> and so you eventually may need to understand how seven or more major version control software works.
07:47:49 <b_jonas> And it's not really installing the version control software that's difficult, but understanding how they work and how to use them, because each of them have completely different ideas about what version history is about and what data is stored.
07:48:40 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, those are mostly wars of the past, though now I mostly have that problem with editors. When I have time (i.e. never), I should write my own editor and my own irc client (the two could share a little of their code).
07:49:15 <ais523> huh, there are still lots of editors I like
07:49:29 <ais523> although my main editor is Emacs, which isn't exactly easy to learn
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07:52:16 <b_jonas> "like", sure. but none of them is perfect, and there are changes that are impossible to add to an editor later.
07:52:59 <b_jonas> in particular, I use joe-editor often, and there are patches for it that make it better than the vanilla (eg. fix the longstanding bug that it often can't use the last column of the terminal), but there's one thing that's really hardwired and can't be changed without rewriting most of it:
07:53:16 <b_jonas> namely that it insists on displaying one line of the text file in one line of the screen only.
07:53:34 <b_jonas> Most editors can break a line of the text file to multiple screen lines, which is often useful.
07:54:27 <b_jonas> When you only want to fix minor things, such as the behavior of particular commands, or the keyboard layout, sure, you can do those in many editors.
07:54:52 <b_jonas> Part of the problem is also that I'm not sure what exactly I want from an editor, and I have to figure that out too.
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07:56:44 <b_jonas> In particular, I can't decide if I want an modeless editor, a moded editor (with a separate insert and normal mode like vim), or a hybrid.
07:57:22 <ais523> hmm, I just got a spam email offering to publish my thesis as a book, but I could tell it was spam from the fact that it had clearly been mail-merged and not written very well
07:57:43 <ais523> (then I decided to websearch the name of the company, and it confirmed my suspicions)
07:57:47 <b_jonas> So when I write the editor, I should probably try to make the best moded layout I can, and try to use it for a while, then decide if that's what I want.
07:57:58 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, academic spam?
07:58:04 <ais523> I "like" the fact that they tried to buy the rights to the thesis without even reading it
07:58:16 <ais523> (from shachaf's experience recently, I know that they haven't read it)
07:58:35 <ais523> (unless shachaf works for them, which I seriously doubt given the email contents)
07:59:32 <shachaf> my plan is to make a fortune selling illicit copies of ais523's thesis to the unsuspecting public *MWAHAHAHA*
07:59:53 <ais523> here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDM_Publishing#Criticism
08:00:33 <shachaf> Oh, I may have seen some of their books.
08:00:46 <b_jonas> And the worst part of the version control war is the developers that don't make releases and insist that "the easiest way" to get their software or to get old versions is to use their favourite version control software and check out a snapshot (or tagged version) from their archive.
08:00:54 <shachaf> Or at least some people selling Wikipedia books on Amazon.
08:00:54 <ais523> shachaf: if that was your plan, you'd probably have asked me for permission as shachaf, rather than pretending to be a spammer
08:01:21 <b_jonas> They seem to think that the easiest way to get software is for you to speak all seven or more version control software.
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08:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44528&oldid=44487 * Rdebath * (+468) Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? --> TC demonstrated
08:01:36 <shachaf> ais523: which part of "illicit" was unclear
08:01:39 <b_jonas> Is it even possible for someone to know six or more of them? I think the knowledge may be mutually exclusive.
08:02:17 <olsner> b_jonas: I think it's not that hard to use whatever VCS to check out the software, especially if they have instructions
08:02:21 <ais523> shachaf: OK, put it a different way round: if you were going to illicitly publish copies of my thesis you probably wouldn't have asked for permission
08:02:28 <olsner> in particular, you don't really need to know it to do that
08:03:08 <ais523> b_jonas: let's see, I know git and darcs quite well, have used svn and rcs without real issues (rcs sucks but there's not much to learn), know the basics of hg, and sporadically work on the design of scapegoat
08:03:20 <b_jonas> olsner: yes, luckily if you just want to check it out, then it's generally not too hard. at least that's what you think until you realize that some versions of one of those seven version control system automatically executes on-checkout hooks on your client system when you checkout a version.
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08:03:36 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, rcs still exists?
08:03:51 <shachaf> ais523: without asking for permission, and not getting it, how can i guarantee that the copies are illicit?
08:04:17 <shachaf> posing as a spammer may be the best way to not get permission
08:04:17 <ais523> b_jonas: yes; basically because it's an executable that can be freely copied, nobody's suceeded in eradicating all copies from existence yet
08:04:52 <ais523> b_jonas: a VCS that executes checkout hooks stored in a remote repository on your local system contains a security bug
08:04:57 <Jafet> But by posing as a spammer, ais523 is almost certainly not going to reply, so you will not get denied permission
08:04:59 <ais523> and would likely be excluded from repos on that basis
08:05:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I know, that's the problem, once one of these version controls are used, they'll exist forever. that's the whole problem.
08:06:34 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, most people think so. but some people apparently think that the only thing you'd ever want to checkout with a vcs is software that you'd immediately compile and run with the same permissions on the same machine so it's not really a security bug, or something like that. it's crazy.
08:07:06 <ais523> b_jonas: hopefully distro package maintainers aren't those people
08:07:55 <b_jonas> I think they fixed that in later versions of that vcs or something. I hope.
08:08:13 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure which vcs it was. I should try to find it out.
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08:11:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44529&oldid=44528 * Rdebath * (+364) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
08:11:52 <b_jonas> I think it was darcs that executed such commands on a darcs get
08:12:37 <ais523> --prompt-posthook prompt before running posthook [DEFAULT]
08:12:45 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if the --prompt-posthook can be overriden by the repo itself?
08:12:56 <ais523> if not, it's not actually a bug (although it is a bit dubious UI-wise)
08:13:19 <b_jonas> there's also --no-posthook, but the question is, is that the default with newer versions of darcs?
08:13:58 <ais523> --prompt-posthook is the default in my currently installed version (that's what my paste was about)
08:15:08 <b_jonas> how does it prompt? (as you know, I really prefer prefix switches over unexpected prompts ui-wise)
08:15:22 <b_jonas> I hope it doesn't just, like, say "press enter to run posthook" or something
08:16:05 <b_jonas> or even print "posthook? " to mimic a password prompt, but with the terminal echo on.
08:16:37 <b_jonas> btw, password prompts should really tell more than just "password: "
08:16:45 <ais523> it's probably a yn prompt
08:16:46 <b_jonas> most do, but some software is still stupid
08:16:56 <ais523> also darcs prompts a lot, so you're already in yn prompt mode at that point
08:17:02 <ais523> the docs don't imply that hooks can be copied between repos
08:18:00 <b_jonas> I can't even find much info about this darcs-get thing. maybe it never really existed, just some people who preferred another vcs has accidentally made the info up when he didn't understand darcs.
08:18:09 <b_jonas> (some mercurial people probably)
08:20:16 <ais523> b_jonas: so I tested: a) there doesn't seem to be any prompt about the posthook by default (contrary to the docs), but b) cloning/pulling from a repo doesn't copy hooks at all
08:20:29 <ais523> so there's no security issue there
08:20:50 <b_jonas> ok, it's probably some mercurial guys that made that problem up then
08:21:37 <ais523> there is a warning in the docs that you should never create a hook that runs files in the repo itself
08:21:46 <ais523> which is a generally applicable rule, not darcs-specific
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08:21:54 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, that makes sense
08:21:55 <ais523> and that's actually a good point, I should probably fix that in NH4
08:22:08 <ais523> actually I don't think I am
08:22:52 <b_jonas> and in an access-controlled central repo, be VERY careful if you want to store the files defining permissions or authentication inside the repo
08:22:53 <ais523> ah yes, the script in the repo gets /copied/ to the hook dir, and then isn't referenced thereafter
08:23:05 <ais523> b_jonas: people do that?
08:23:14 <b_jonas> ais523: rarely, but some do
08:24:49 <b_jonas> I think it might be the same people that put the file containing the administrator password of a web-based something system (possibly also reused as THE password for everything in house) to a file that's remotely accessible under over http with a predictable name;
08:25:14 <b_jonas> or the ones who put database server hostnames and passwords into the source files they upload to github.
08:25:54 <b_jonas> In theory it's possible to do safely, if you use the same access control files to make sure those files can't be accessed through the vcs server, but it's a bad idae.
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08:27:53 <ais523> b_jonas: it's still dangerous in that it gives anyone with the rights to write to the repo the rights to do anything with the repo
08:28:41 <b_jonas> ais523: no, this is for repos that are per-path access controlled
08:29:07 <b_jonas> so you give access to people to write only some paths and read only some paths
08:29:23 <b_jonas> it's rarely useful, but some people want some things
08:33:07 <fizzie> svn has that thing for the servers, but I don't think I've heard of anyone putting the ACLs inside. Still, I don't doubt it isn't done.
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08:34:49 <fizzie> There's a long are-you-sure section about the path-based access control in the SVN book
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08:37:07 <b_jonas> "don't doubt it isn't done" hehehe
08:37:55 <fizzie> There were too many negatives for me to survive through writing that.
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08:48:21 <b_jonas> incidentally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_version_control_software is a huge table giving a lot of info
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09:43:05 <lambdabot> ENVA 290920Z 07004KT 020V130 CAVOK 14/08 Q1029 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 16009KT
09:50:16 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> But "free Z-module" is shorter than "signed multiset". <-- i think the former is a set of the latter hth
09:59:18 <b_jonas> argh, program randomly crashes sometimes
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10:02:14 <oerjan> better than randomly crashing always hth
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10:54:33 <b_jonas> stupid question. is there any compiler (C or other language) where as an optimization you can give hints (in eg. function attributes) that two functions are linked so that if you want to compute the result of both on the same input arguments then it's faster to call a third function that computes the result of both? eg. you'd declare a function that computes both sin and cos, or sinh and cosh.
10:55:36 <b_jonas> for the more difficult version, the same but for objects that point to heap-allocated data that changes its values, such as bigints or bignums, where you'd use it for bigint quo-rem, div-mod, sin-cos, sinh-cosh
10:56:31 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe I should ask this on Haskell
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11:09:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44530&oldid=44529 * Int-e * (+420) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ what a coincidence
11:12:41 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm tempted to say that using quotRem constitutes such a hint... but it's very unsubtle.
11:13:00 <b_jonas> int-e: well sure, you can call the combined function explicitly
11:14:15 <b_jonas> and *fixint* quotient and remainder (and possibly also for machine float sin-cos and sinh-cosh) often want to be compiler intrinsics again where the compiler performs both this optimization and often other specific optimizations.
11:14:38 <b_jonas> but I wonder if there's a compiler that can automatically do this transformation for user-defined functions
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11:16:45 <b_jonas> In particular, you can certainly call mpfr_sin_cos or mpfr_sinh_cosh explicitly on libmpfr bignums
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12:10:36 <fungot> int-e: lli' fnord nkith ni fnord jonkun. two semicolons work much better.
12:10:53 <int-e> well, that could have gone better
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12:30:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GolfScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44531&oldid=43913 * 160.85.232.142 * (+30) /* External resources */
12:32:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44532 * 160.85.232.142 * (+110) Created page with "Golfing languages are languages specifically designed for [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_golf| Codegolf]."
12:36:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44533&oldid=44532 * Ais523 * (-18) fix broken link syntax; also, IP, you probably shouldn't be creating new categories without discussion
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12:39:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FlogScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44534&oldid=43161 * 160.85.232.142 * (+29) /* External resources */ +cat: golfing language
12:39:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FlogScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44535&oldid=44534 * 160.85.232.142 * (+1) /* External resources */ ! missing closing bracket.
12:41:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44536&oldid=43813 * 160.85.232.142 * (+30) + cat:golfing language
12:41:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44537&oldid=44133 * 160.85.232.142 * (+30) /* Links */ + cat:golfing language
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12:51:30 <mroman_> ais523: pardon. I'm guilty of that @creating category
12:51:59 <mroman_> I've actually even added a link from Wikipedia to that category.
12:52:00 <ais523> mroman_: so the story goes, that back in the days when Graue was Dictator Of The Wiki, a well-meaning new user decided to sort the esolangs by year
12:52:11 <ais523> and created a bunch of new categories
12:52:16 <ais523> Graue got annoyed at this and banned the user
12:52:39 <mroman_> To discourage people from adding their own languages as "well-known" to the wikipedia code golf article
12:52:42 <ais523> and the "don't create new categories without permission" rule was added in an attempt to inform people about what happened
12:52:56 <ais523> mroman_: I actually saw the link at Wikipedia
12:53:01 <ais523> we have more than one golfing language, though
12:53:07 <ais523> and I'm not sure we currently categorize by language purpose
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12:54:29 <mroman_> ais523: It wouldn't make sense for most probably.
12:54:54 <ais523> well, I think esolangs can be classified into a few purposes
12:55:05 <mroman_> Well, I'm not saying they can't.
12:55:10 <mroman_> Obviously I'm already doing exactly that :D
12:55:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44538&oldid=42402 * 160.85.232.142 * (+31) /* External resources */ + cat:golfing language
12:56:03 <mroman_> btw: Does the esowiki have a cache pre-hooked to the webserver?
12:56:29 <ais523> some esolangs are designed to be art, or ask philosophical questions about what a language is (there's sort-of an overlap there)
12:56:37 <ais523> some esolangs are designed to be a language with specific properties
12:57:01 <ais523> some are designed to be easy to implement (often but not always because the creator isn't that good at implementing languages, e.g. Deadfish)
12:57:21 <ais523> some are designed in an attempt to find new computational models
12:57:25 <ais523> and some are designed to look weird
12:58:01 <mroman_> I just don't think that promoting your esolang on wikipedia unless it has really picked up a lot of relevance and/or existed for several years is what wikipedia would really want.
12:58:10 <mroman_> So the place to promote them is the esowiki in my opinion.
12:58:46 <mroman_> Does "mimick brainfuck" count? :D
12:59:02 <mroman_> oh that already exists anyway
12:59:24 <mroman_> My languages are ALWAYS defined to be easily parseable with parsec
13:00:03 <ais523> mroman_: actually I think part of the original motivation for creating Esolang was to help keep Wikipedia tidy (or to put it another way: to save all the languages that people were posting to Wikipedia even though it violated Wikipedia policy)
13:00:27 <ais523> I was heavily involved in that from the Wikipedia side
13:00:50 <mroman_> which was a good choice. Otherwise you'd clobber wikipedia with thousands of esolangs and most of them barely have any relevance.
13:01:10 <ais523> here's links to the history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ais523/esolangafd
13:01:51 <mroman_> Well, I guess beating up wikipedia is fine in that context too.
13:03:27 <mroman_> Didn't know that happened.
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13:09:51 <mroman_> also tournaments by language on wp is wrong anyway
13:10:00 <mroman_> jagc doesn't feature all those languages in the list
13:10:05 <mroman_> that's only the list for anagol
13:10:17 <mroman_> and I'm not even sure if you'd want to list all the languages available on anagol there
13:11:43 <mroman_> jagc features perl, python, erlang, ruby, haskell bash and php
13:12:46 <mroman_> shorten on spoj features a lot of languages but not as much esolangs as anagol does
13:21:53 <b_jonas> mroman_: how about http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/ ?
13:26:12 <mroman_> If you want you can add it to the wp article. Stackexchange is mentioned under "external links"
13:27:08 <mroman_> I personally don't like codegolf.stackexchange.com since it has no means of validation/byte count whatever
13:27:32 <mroman_> It tends to have more complex problems though.
13:27:37 <mroman_> as on other site with automatic validation
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13:29:01 <mroman_> there are two external links, one to stackoverflow with tag and one to codegolf.stackexchange
13:29:10 <mroman_> I guess codegolf.stackexchange is newer
13:29:55 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, that's the problem, no automatic validation. it does have simple golf problems though.
13:30:03 <b_jonas> both simple ones and very complicated ones.
13:31:25 <mroman_> That's why I don't like it. Problems are often broad.
13:31:43 <mroman_> Do they want a program? Or just a function. Is input passed as arguments, read from stdin or is in a variable
13:32:28 <mroman_> I get that people don't like anagol that much because it looks like a site from the 19** something :D
13:32:43 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, the specs are sometimes too broad
13:32:59 <mroman_> and there's no social media involvement with anagol and that stuff
13:33:08 <mroman_> you can't comment on other people's solution
13:33:21 <b_jonas> mroman_: there's an irc channel but yeahs
13:33:21 <mroman_> I guess that's why most who'd consider golfing don't like anagol too much
13:33:37 <b_jonas> maybe there should be an officially recommended mailing list for it?
13:33:55 <mroman_> I sadly don't have the resources available to make a more friendly page
13:34:02 <mroman_> otherwise I'd already done that.
13:34:03 <b_jonas> I don't care about friendly page
13:34:40 <b_jonas> but if the site recommended an official off-site forum, such as a mailing list, that might help
13:34:40 <mroman_> there's the IRC channel @mailling list
13:35:41 <mroman_> my hosters mailling list service is broken
13:35:47 <mroman_> and they aren't going to fix that
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13:36:34 <mroman_> that surely can't be legal
13:36:44 <mroman_> if they advertise it, they have to actually provide it I'd say
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13:54:53 <b_jonas> is there an article about that golf prelude for ruby1.8 on the esowiki yet?
13:55:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44539&oldid=44275 * B jonas * (+23)
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14:42:21 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/jXREgoR1 <- my brain's idea or a new board game
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14:46:47 <mroman_> I'm tempted to write a program that spawns to programs battling each other
14:46:56 <mroman_> while feeding them the data through stdin/stdout
14:47:04 <mroman_> so you can battle programs and strategies
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16:17:21 <b_jonas> oh no. more macros with short names. just what this code needs.
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16:37:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44540&oldid=44518 * Timwi * (+0) /* Examples / Ekzemploj */
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18:33:35 <hppavilion[1]> @msg oerjan What's the Funge98 vulnerability? Or can you not tell me?
18:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan What's the Funge98 vulnerability? Or can you not tell me?
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18:37:07 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], as a Funge-98 implementer I'm curious
18:37:24 <Vorpal> Unless he is talking about the thing I found in my own implementation the other day
18:39:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it was about that.
18:39:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think oerjan said anything else than just setting the topic.
18:40:32 <Vorpal> I don't see that much, since I never leave
18:40:39 <Vorpal> With the bouncer that is
18:41:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah the only thing I found since then is that nested k can get you stack overflow (unsurprisingly)
18:41:32 <Vorpal> It won't even be possible to rewrite it into tail recursion in the general case I believe
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18:42:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, but that is unavoidable
18:44:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, how goes jitfunge?
18:53:16 <fizzie> I've been quite busy lately, what with the job and finishing up the thesis, to be fair.
18:53:37 <fizzie> Which reminds me, time to start getting home, it's almost 8pm here. ->
18:54:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, it appears all random variable behaviour involves HRTI, TIME or y
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19:06:45 <fizzie> Bah. The network of my mobile phone operator is otherwise reasonably okay, but there's this one corner of Victoria Station where I just can't get any sort of signal.
19:07:05 <fizzie> It's not even all of the station, just these few platforms.
19:12:54 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to see a list-like data structure where the length can be any hypercomplex number
19:14:14 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], how would it work
19:14:24 <fizzie> If there are any nurses or doctors on this station, please make your way to platform 13, where your assistance is needed."
19:14:33 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: That is left as an excersise for the reader
19:14:41 <fizzie> I thought that was something they only did on planes.
19:14:43 <hppavilion[1]> I have no clue, really. How would imaginary items work in a list?
19:15:39 <fizzie> Won't that just be a linked plane?
19:16:16 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a programming language like python, but where all data has an actual spatial relation to each other (sort of like a BFian tape, but with actual variables)
19:17:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object-Oriented Brainfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44541 * Hppavilion1 * (+157) Reserved Page
19:18:02 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], well, that is called memory? Given, say int a and int b, then &a - &b is the distance measurement between them in C
19:18:14 <Vorpal> Some casting required if we are dealing with disparate types
19:18:27 <Vorpal> This if of course one-dimensional
19:18:46 <Vorpal> Yes, but I was not talking about python
19:18:54 <Vorpal> Anyway you can get it using id()
19:19:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also very undefined by standard if we're referring to separate objects.
19:19:21 <Vorpal> A function which always annoy me, since I think it should be identity (for use with higher order functions)
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19:49:34 <hppavilion[1]> Even with some convoluted λ-calcular operations on normal Chruch Numerals?
19:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> Like, the document I just read defined the predecessor function
19:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> thus -1 f is the inverse of f, but lambda expressions do not have inverses in general
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19:56:32 <hppavilion[1]> Wiki seems to think it's possible with Church Pairs or something
19:57:27 <hppavilion[1]> Something about a pair with the first being the positive and the second being the negative, then swapping the values
19:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> but i wouldn't call it a church numeral because church numerals are, to me, repeated function application
19:59:56 <hppavilion[1]> Well I think it'd make the most sense to represent a number as some sort of pair if definining complex numbers...
20:00:36 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know enough about λ-calculus to understand what that means xD
20:00:53 <hppavilion[1]> (Assuming it's not the traditional meaning of "abstraction")
20:01:27 <Phantom_Hoover> you have naturals, pairs and equality, you can just build the rest of your types from there
20:01:52 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I could define some sort of "~" function that takes a number in whatever encoding I use and returns its inverse
20:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> don't really need to waste time coming up with clever, elegant encodings
20:02:21 <hppavilion[1]> And i that takes an argument and returns its complex equivalent
20:04:12 <hppavilion[1]> I understand that it has to do with moving around variables. I think. That's about it.
20:04:20 <newsham> https://github.com/rwg/aes-horror-shows/tree/master/msp430-microcorruption
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20:06:20 <hppavilion[1]> I /think/ I get how it works, but it's hard to wrap my head around. λxy.yxXY = YX, correct?
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20:07:09 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: You seem to know enough about it to tell me if I'm right. Am I?
20:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i never wasted that much time on learning the variable substitution semantics though
20:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> they're functions, they behave the way you expect functions to
20:09:02 <hppavilion[1]> I decided to remove special operations from my λ-calculator, as I feel it isn't very λ-calculy
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20:18:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44542&oldid=44167 * 50.206.146.226 * (+118) added Portal
20:20:33 <hppavilion[1]> Where λsz.z is how the document I read defines Church 0 and λxy.y is how it defines the Boolean False
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20:29:47 <int-e> of course that's just a convention; the idea is that if-then-else can be the identity function.
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20:32:17 <int-e> so if-then-else b t f = b t f, and the truth values are \t f.t (i.e., K) and \t f.f (i.e., K I)
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21:28:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: just joking about Vorpal's discovery
21:29:49 <oerjan> otoh it _does_ allow arbitrary native code execution, otoh you can probably do that from funge98 in more direct ways.
21:30:09 <oerjan> (well, probably allows)
21:33:14 <hppavilion[1]> What kind of logic is this from: \forall(x): (x->y)->(w->z) ?
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21:40:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: something that allows quantifying over propositions... probably not very specific.
21:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> I really just need to know about the (x->y)->(w->z) part
21:41:07 <oerjan> oh. -> is probably implication.
21:41:31 <oerjan> what kind of implication would depend on the logic.
21:42:06 <hppavilion[1]> x->y means that if x is true, then y is true. x and y are booleans, or some similar type.
21:42:22 <oerjan> well in that case, classical logic
21:42:48 <hppavilion[1]> LIME is now up and has a BUNCH of planned calculators, including the GUM calculator (Grand Unified Math)
21:43:04 <oerjan> well i suppose it depends on what "x is true" means.
21:43:17 <oerjan> you could interpret that as intuitionistic too.
21:43:34 <oerjan> x <-> true = x is valid for intuitionistic predicates as well.
21:44:00 <hppavilion[1]> I'm currently doing the Arithmetic engine because it's needed for Set Theory
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21:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'll write the arithmetical calculator, then prealgebraic calculator derived from it
21:46:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: classical logic is what ordinary math tends to use. but intuitionistic logic is more popular for theorem provers because it fits better to the curry-howard "programs as proofs" correspondence.
21:48:05 <oerjan> in intuitionistic logic, (x -> false) -> false is not equal to x
21:48:34 <int-e> really, HOL, Coq and Isabelle/HOL, Isabelle/FOL, Isabelle/ZF all use classical logic (the Isabelle/Pure framework is intuitionistic though, I believe)
21:48:46 <shachaf> in the other channel we were talking about "at least one" and "at most one"
21:49:05 <shachaf> exists, +, surjective, total, relevant, at least one
21:49:18 <shachaf> unique, ?, injective, functional, affine, at most one
21:49:25 <shachaf> so many names for the same concepts
21:50:02 <oerjan> shachaf: that means there has to be something categorical unifying them, right?
21:50:19 <int-e> I guess I should write the first HOL and HOL4.
21:53:02 <int-e> oerjan: of course if you want to run a proof as code, you better avoid classical tools like the axiom of choice and the law of excluded middle. but in Coq they're still available for proving properties of functions.
21:53:11 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm just trying to make a joke that's probably true hth
21:53:56 <oerjan> int-e: ok, so i guess it depends on where you are on the sliding scale between theorem prover and dependently typed PL
21:55:04 <oerjan> i had somehow the impression that Coq was intuitionistic at the core but classical logic was just one added axiom if you needed it.
21:57:00 <int-e> uh, I guess we're also discussing where the theorem prover ends and where user-written theories start
21:57:43 * oerjan hasn't ever got around to do much more than staring blankly at Coq's startup screen.
21:58:41 <int-e> I haven't used Coq seriously either, but I'm using Isabelle quite a bit.
22:00:34 <int-e> (Which is definitely at the theorem prover end of the spectrum. But it supports functional programming style function definitions and can export them as code. So you can produce verified software with it.)
22:02:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Commercial]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44543&oldid=43977 * LegionMammal978 * (+23) /* Hello, world! */
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22:27:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44544&oldid=35541 * LegionMammal978 * (+1294)
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22:48:06 * oerjan thinks the number of italians is going up steeply
22:48:29 <oerjan> sorry, shachaf, you're not allowed to be italian too
22:50:23 <shachaf> oerjan: you don't sound sorry
22:50:33 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see my failed attempt at oerjaning earlier
22:50:41 <oerjan> sound transmits badly through irc hth
22:51:01 <oerjan> _denis_: that's what i noticed, and you're the second to arrive recently
22:51:37 <shachaf> copumpkin is also italian hth
22:52:10 <oerjan> i remember that copumpkin has a funny last name that's not at all italian-sounding. i just don't remember what it is.
22:52:30 <shachaf> https://plus.google.com/+DanielPeebles/about
22:54:01 <oerjan> what order are those places in
22:54:46 * oerjan thinks norwegian UI nationalization looks eery on that page
22:55:55 <oerjan> the most annoying thing about nationalized UIs is that you never know how to explain or search for things
22:57:34 <oerjan> copumpkin: how are the working conditions of a sponge, anyway? maybe i should consider a new career...
22:58:30 <shachaf> what is your current career?
22:59:16 <oerjan> but i have a feeling that i might be able to cope with being a sponge
22:59:50 <shachaf> sponge (animal) or sponge (material)?
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23:00:40 <oerjan> i might not be that good with underwater conditions
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23:25:14 <copumpkin> I'm not really italian, but I grew up in italy and fit in pretty well
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23:38:41 <\oren\> wut is Du criticL funj nInE At vulnRabilitE?
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23:50:50 <boily> hellørjan. critical funge vuln?
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23:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I think it's in Vorpal's Funge-98 interpreter
23:55:36 <boily> hppavellon[1]! the horror!
23:55:47 <boily> Vellorpal. do you corroborate?
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23:58:13 <oerjan> iirc it involved stack stack operations giving access to out of bound memory