00:21:35 <zzo38> Did you define a ligature table in the font?
00:21:43 <zzo38> Maybe you have to do it?
00:29:47 <fizzie> It's supposed to contain one already. And the ligatures worked in Gimp with a locally installed copy. Of course I don't know what's in the Google webfont version.
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00:53:12 <doesthiswork> 'tell hppavilion[1] http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Andy/Games/monochess.html
00:54:05 <doesthiswork> oh well, looks like I can't remember which bot is which
00:55:14 <ais523> doesthiswork: you want @
01:00:31 <doesthiswork> @tell hppavilion[1] http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Andy/Games/monochess.html
01:01:08 <doesthiswork> It would be fun to have an IRC bot that dispatched on tab
01:59:27 <zzo38> My brother had made up a puzzle of Hearthstone game; he has explained to me the rules of game so that I can know how the puzzle is working. As far as I know he has not put it into the computer yet, but it is written on two sheets of paper (he writes very large, unlike I write small)
02:00:37 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of Hearthstone game?
02:00:59 <shachaf> One of the odd things about it is that minion order on the battlefield matters, and minions can't be moved.
02:01:18 <zzo38> I don't really know; I don't play that game, but I know most of the rules of the game
02:03:15 <zzo38> The puzzle is as follows:
02:04:31 <zzo38> You - Priest, 1 HP, 10 Mana, 0 Deck, 2 Fatigue. Hand - The Coin, Flame Lance, Shadow Word: Death, Inner Fire. Play - Gurubashi Berserker [Divine Spirit, 7 Damage], Dalaran Mage [2 Damage], Auchenai Soulpriest [1 Damage], Mana Wyrm [1 Damage], Holy Champion [1 Damage].
02:05:11 <zzo38> Opponent - Mage, 22 HP. Hand - N/A. Play - Sunwalker [0 Damage (due to Divine Shield), 2 Damage], Ysera, Malygos, Ysera, Malygos, Ysera, Malygos.
02:05:37 <zzo38> (The second page has the effect of all relevant cards and hero powers)
02:06:33 <shachaf> I don't remember what most of the cards do.
02:07:27 <zzo38> I can list all of them. Hero Powers: (all 2 Mana, 1/turn) Priest - Heal a character for 2 health. Mage - Deal 1 damage to a character.
02:07:49 <shachaf> It's too many for me to reconstruct it in my head right now.
02:07:57 <shachaf> I'm on a train and getting off soon.
02:09:00 <zzo38> Spells: The Coin - 0 Mana - Gain 1 Mana this turn. Flame Lance - 5 Mana - Deal 8 damage to a minion. Shadow Word: Death - 3 Mana - Destroy a minion with 5 or more attack. Inner Fire - 1 Mana - Set a minion's attack to its current health. Divine Spirit - Double a minion's health.
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02:10:45 <zzo38> Minions: Gurubashi Berserker - 2/7 - Gains 3 attack whenever this minion takes damage. Dalaran Mage - 1/4 - +1 spell damage. Auchenai Soulpriest - 3/5 - Your healing spells and hero power now deal damage instead. Mana Wyrm - 1/3 - +1 attack gained whenever you play a spell. Holy Champion - 3/5 - +2 attack gained whenever a character is healed. Sunwalker - 4/5 - Taunt, Divine Shield. Ysera - Dragon 4/12 - Add a dream card to your hand a
02:11:12 <zzo38> (What a "dream card" is, is irrelevant here. I don't know what it is anyways.)
02:11:57 <shachaf> Your message was cut off. Maybe better to write it up somewhere with an HTTP address?
02:12:25 <shachaf> One of the annoying things about Hearthstone is that the cards aren't specified.
02:12:35 <shachaf> Sometimes you have to reverse-engineer their behavior.
02:13:18 <zzo38> Holy Champion - 3/5 - +2 attack gained whenever a character is healed. Sunwalker - 4/5 - Taunt, Divine Shield. Ysera - Dragon 4/12 - Add a dream card to your hand at the end of your turn. Malygos - Dragon 4/12 - Spell damage +5.
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03:47:42 <zzo38> I made up some compression scheme for DVI files; each page is compressed individually so that it can still work whether the pages are read backward or forward and even if some pages are skipped.
03:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> This looks interesting: http://www.chessvariants.org/piececlopedia.dir/reflecting-bishop.html
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04:26:08 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering making a mathematical OS is Cosmos. Not for usage, just as something to do.
04:40:14 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos_%28operating_system%29 ?
04:40:27 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CosmicOS ?
04:46:22 <zzo38> Another variant relating to the bishop that I have heard of is "quantum bishops" where instead of going diagonally, it goes in both orthogonal paths to reach its destination; if either path is blocked then it cannot go, but it is OK if the diagonal path is blocked.
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04:58:41 <Sgeo> "expressing inheritence" -- why is that needed for a program meant to be sent to aliens?
04:58:48 <Sgeo> Why do we want to beam Java to space?
04:58:57 <Sgeo> http://cosmicos.github.io/
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05:16:09 <MDude> It's based on Scheme, actually.
05:17:03 <MDude> What I'm wondering is why we'd send a legal iscense agreement to an alien that might have completely alien views on copyright.
05:19:10 <MDude> THere's also https://medium.com/@McCosmos/a-treatise-on-cosmos-the-new-programming-language-905be69eb4af
05:19:27 <MDude> WHich is a language someone might write an OS in?
05:20:36 <zzo38> You can write an operating system in C or in assembly language although others are also possible
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05:46:54 <ais523> wait, there are two operating systems with names based on "cosmos", and neither is called "CosmOS"?
05:47:31 <ais523> MDude: C is most common, or asm for older OSes (and the C-based ones normally have small amounts of asm); some more recent languages are possible to write an OS in, like C++ and Rust
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05:49:02 <MDude> I was just saying that because it was another possible answer to my earleir question, even though hpavilion already answered.
05:50:23 <MDude> Now I'm wondering why hppavilion is specifically making an OS using a specific existing OS.
05:52:08 <pikhq> The main thing you need for a language suitable to write an OS in is an ability to use it without a notable run time environment -- because you're *writing* one. :)
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06:05:32 <hppavilion[1]> MDreeam: I'm not making an OS in another OS, per se. COSMOS is an "OS Toolkit", like legos of OS design
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06:11:48 <zzo38> Only Forth can syntax-highlight Forth, isn't it?
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06:33:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Approximately, yes. As the meaning of a given Forth statement depends on the words in place in the current Forth environment.
06:44:40 <ais523> there are some approximate syntax-highlight rules that will normally work, though, I think?
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07:16:22 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa whoa whoa, a mention of NYHC on haskell-prime@
07:21:00 <Taneb> Hmm, my github picture is quite old
07:21:05 <Taneb> I should take a new one
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07:34:14 <b_jonas> oerjan: I have a corpus of Arany János poems ready, because I used it to bulid a language model already. I have some other similar sized out-of-copyright collections of poems downloaded, but I'd have to process them.
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07:47:22 <b_jonas> However, I don't see why I would want to process anything more unless you teach fungot this corpus: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bibul.txt
07:47:22 <fungot> b_jonas: i see. you may well have made my saving throw. a whole tribe, you can.
07:47:48 <b_jonas> which is from an old snapshot of http://lolcatbible.com
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08:00:22 <b_jonas> However, it may be more difficult to build a decent language model for Hungarian than for English. There's all the conjugations and declinations going on, so you can't just match entire words.
08:01:27 <b_jonas> You'd probably need to use one of those softwares that already have knowledge about Hungarian grammar to try to parse words and sentences, adn then maybe try to build a model from that.
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09:32:32 <fizzie> b_jonas: Or just use unsupervisedly-learned statistical morphemes and build the model on sub-word units? That's what we do for Finnish.
09:32:55 <fizzie> Although fungot's current babbling code is not going to be able to not put a space between each token.
09:32:55 <fungot> fizzie: you! we wouldn't get to watch my intake.
09:33:07 <fizzie> (That's why it gets starting quotes etc. wrong, actually.)
09:41:49 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
09:42:15 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
09:42:20 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: of all, the first one was a complete the binding the crocodile's jaws are tied us up and left us here! we're the last, die moment of triumph of fatherland a bavarian standoff, but with the balrog dead, you probably want the next time. goodbye. well, it is rocket science, i now restart the universe, a better universe! we choose only die fittest people of nigeria!
09:43:31 <b_jonas> I don't really like all these crazy unsupervised training stuff people do these days. I prefer to teach computers the domain-specific knowledge that I already have.
09:44:47 <fizzie> b_jonas: Very retro. The deep learning stuff is all about not teaching them any domain-specific knowledge, under the assumption that we'd be teaching the wrong (or at least suboptimal) things anyway.
09:46:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: it's not really retro. I mean, it's a significant part of my actual dayjob, which is totally not retro, but state of the art and gets obsolate every few years and synergic and all that fancy buzzwords.
09:47:07 <Taneb> ...is there actually a critical funge98 vulnerability
09:47:19 <fizzie> Well, on the speech side, not doing it certainly seems to work better.
09:47:31 <fizzie> Taneb: Not really, and it would be a cfunge vulnerability anyway.
09:48:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: Sure, it depends on the tasks. I have colleagues who do all this crazy automated learning and mattern patching stuff, and some of them even understand how it works and use it well. It's just that it's not what I prefer, and I'm sure it's often a bad idea.
09:51:49 <Taneb> fizzie: what was the issue?
09:52:08 <Taneb> b_jonas: mattern patching?
09:53:17 <b_jonas> Probably some missing array bounds checking or similar I'd guess.
09:59:13 <fizzie> Taneb: Something like what b_jonas says. Some highly unlikely stack-stack operations might possibly under contrived enough conditions lead to arbitrary code execution.
09:59:44 <fizzie> I seem to recall a mention about integer overflow regarding some memory allocations.
10:02:47 <b_jonas> !oeis 1 2 5 12 29 70 169 408 985 2378 5741
10:02:49 <b_jonas> `oeis 1 2 5 12 29 70 169 408 985 2378 5741
10:02:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oeis: not found
10:02:55 <b_jonas> do we have an oeis bot here?
10:12:09 <b_jonas> (yes, it's a famous sequence. you can tell because it has such a low A-number.)
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10:17:36 <Taneb> b_jonas: I believe lambdabot has oeisiness
10:17:49 <lambdabot> Pell numbers: a(0) = 0, a(1) = 1; for n > 1, a(n) = 2*a(n-1) + a(n-2).[0,1,2...
10:20:51 <Taneb> Oooh, I have a lecture on Eodermdrome-like programming languages in just over 3 hours
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11:04:57 <b_jonas> I always think that a lot of smbc-comics strips are similar to xkcd strips, though I'm not sure which one copies of the other. but today is the first time smbc-comics reminds me to a PBF strip: compare http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3881 with http://pbfcomics.com/262/
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11:05:50 <b_jonas> I mean look at it, the circular design with three hanging feathers, they seem like exactly the same object in the two strips in different drawing styles.
11:07:30 <boily> they are dream catchers. you hang them over your bed to catch dreams, and the jingly bits (feathers, beads, jingly stuff) help the good ones trickle back into your head.
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11:16:59 <boily> b_jonas: seriously.
11:17:22 <boily> (well, that's the intent, and that's what counts, eh?)
11:19:30 <b_jonas> boily: yes, and it works in those two strips
11:21:38 * boily facedesks through his mechanical keyboard and punches a hole into the floor
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12:38:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[0815]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44594&oldid=37670 * 178.8.154.25 * (+35) /* Hello World */
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12:40:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[0815]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44595&oldid=44594 * 178.8.154.25 * (+2) /* Hello World */
12:42:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44596&oldid=44157 * 178.8.154.25 * (+140)
12:43:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44597&oldid=44596 * 178.8.154.25 * (+1)
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13:42:09 <Taneb> "difficult to read because of category theory" -- warning in the lecture slides applied to a textbook
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14:26:01 <FireFly> Darn category theorists... all they do is write hard-to-read textbooks
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14:43:10 <HackEgo> checoin compiarcoin cractcoin arcalcoin cowellcoin obackoutcoin forecoin jehincoin dnrcoin iothetcoin juresolcoin belibecoin fromecoin breludeltopfncoin hevcoin quycoin mouslicoin dokcoin 254coin catucoin
14:43:32 <HackEgo> validcoin datasets:coin --eng-1Mcoin --eng-allcoin --eng-fictioncoin --eng-gbcoin --eng-uscoin --frenchcoin --germancoin --hebrewcoin --russiancoin --spanishcoin --irishcoin --german-medicalcoin --bulgariancoin --catalancoin --swedishcoin --braziliancoin --canadian-english-insanecoin --
14:43:48 <HackEgo> tlocoin (L-T:coin 4)coin rookushkacoin (L-T:coin 1)coin budslhcoin (L-T:coin 4)coin vidalcoin (L-T:coin 0)coin bemoledcoin (L-T:coin -1)coin loqucedcoin (L-T:coin 2)coin vercoin (L-T:coin 1)coin azocoin (L-T:coin 4)coin
14:43:59 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:44:10 <HackEgo> Unknown option: n \ Unknown option: + \ Unknown option: 5
14:44:19 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:44:40 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:44:47 <b_jonas> `words --help |& tail -n+5
14:44:48 <HackEgo> Unknown option: n \ Unknown option: + \ Unknown option: 5
14:45:01 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:45:09 <b_jonas> `words --help 2>&1 | sed 1,5d
14:45:10 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:45:24 <b_jonas> `` words --help |& tail -n+5
14:45:25 <HackEgo> -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger datasets more influential \ -o, --target-offset change the target length offset used in the \
14:45:34 <b_jonas> `` words --help |& tail -n+10
14:45:34 <HackEgo> word generation algorithm; use negative integers \ for best results
14:45:40 <b_jonas> `` words --help |& tail -n+15
14:46:14 <HackEgo> cat: bin/coin: No such file or directory
14:46:16 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
14:46:35 <HackEgo> wigthcoin lavoorcoin ignolocoin gincoin adacoin reposiecoin fbrcvcoin derfeighcoin trucccoin casurvacoin einhabacoin dorecoin speriacoin carcoin lavocoin mizzcoin izationcoin foleurcoin eranslycoin entcoin
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14:47:02 <HackEgo> fracanahexamcoin penneationcoin coluedlocaticicoin sioneuburnoteincoin intryedwincouucoin wilheyncoin puratumquecoin coromieredcoin cautonagecoin uownediumfactationcoin
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14:47:07 <HackEgo> angealpebrocicoin gustfulladeauxcoin honsorcvicalumcoin ioxichtinardswortalcoin prinallylenchilledcoin werenglcsorcoin canamiddktopicantericucoin lastitionerabillycoin goretcompraylentcoin gustocqueenvolutedrivercoin
14:47:10 <HackEgo> relrenccoin bosocoin xvhcoin unmecoin wclcoin sichcoin mniftcoin serencoin torcoin prpcoin
14:47:17 <HackEgo> iaucoin gercoin ethcoin mattcoin rpxcoin concoin fricoin knfcoin percoin upportcoin
14:47:52 <b_jonas> penneation-coin, in-tryed-win-couu-coin, wil-hey-n-coin, cautonage-coin
14:48:56 <fizzie> "ethcoin" sounds networky enough.
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15:48:55 <Taneb> I'm booked to see Tony Hoare next month
15:50:45 <int-e> . o O ( so that fulfills a precondition; what's the post-condition of that step? )
15:51:12 <int-e> wrong Hoare though :P
15:51:51 <int-e> Antony... Tony. Meh.
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15:53:54 <oerjan> those are the same name, really
15:55:52 * oerjan remembers someone saying something recently about groups with 2 generators of order 3 being finite, but cannot find again (also i'm pretty sure that's wrong if only the generators are order 3)
15:56:24 <Taneb> Tony Hoare: Pro Skater
15:56:46 <int-e> another early GG update
15:56:49 <oerjan> maybe it was longer ago than i think
15:57:11 <oerjan> int-e: i'm starting to wonder if seffie is not evil or something
15:58:19 <int-e> or perhaps it's just a little sibling rivalry
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17:27:51 <zzo38> Put all cards from your graveyard on top of your library in a random order; you are not allowed to see the order. ;; Delve
17:28:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: wouldn't that say "shuffle" somewhere?
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17:28:48 <zzo38> You could write it with "shuffle", but maybe not because you are not allowed to see the order
17:29:06 <b_jonas> no, I guess it wouldn't be "shuffle"
17:29:19 <b_jonas> because that would be confusable with "shuffle your graveyard to your library" which already exists
17:34:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, wait, were you here when we discussed large finite loops and http://www.mezzacotta.net/magic/goldfish/ with ais a few days ago?
17:34:44 <b_jonas> it was a bit dizzying to me (not in the sense of Dizzy Spell)
17:34:50 <b_jonas> because of the huge numbers
17:35:13 <b_jonas> we also mentioned infinite loops. again.
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18:23:11 <zzo38> I think I was on here and could read what was being written on this channel at this time
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19:17:45 <b_jonas> \oren\: strange. depending on the browser I sometimes still get the problem where the hanzi on the fontdemo page don't line up to a grid.
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20:03:06 <zzo38> I do not consider it to be such a good idea to do line breaking in the middle of parts of a paragraph that are written in the reverse direction from the main direction of the paragraph. Use a block quote if you need such things.
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21:35:57 <oerjan> @let ljoin [x] = x; ljoin xs | any null xs = [] | otherwise = concat xs
21:36:41 <oerjan> @check \xs -> ljoin (ljoin xs) == (ljoin (map ljoin xs) :: [Int])
21:37:03 <oerjan> hah i'd forgot that example! time to edit my SO answer...
21:43:23 <oerjan> @let kjoin xs | any null xs = [] | otherwise = concat xs
21:43:47 <oerjan> @check \xs -> kjoin (kjoin xs) == (kjoin (map kjoin xs) :: [Int])
21:50:37 <myname> how are they any different?
21:51:18 <myname> @check \xs -> ljoin xs == kjoin xs
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21:57:22 <oerjan> myname: oh those aren't different, i just realized i didn't need the specific [x] case if i'm not caring about bottom.
21:58:32 <oerjan> it is possible i've forgotten what the extra check was, anyway
21:59:01 <oerjan> myname: anyway, this is an alternative Monad instance for finite lists, that has the exact same Applicative.
21:59:04 <myname> hppavilion[1]: windows 8?
22:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> myname: By "EsoGUI" I mean an Esoteric GUI Toolkit
22:01:11 <hppavilion[1]> I think the Geometry Manager should do something like use the intersections of curves to position widgets
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22:03:44 <hppavilion[1]> And the curves' significant points need to be based off of other significant points, the primatives being the midpoints of the edges and the corners
22:05:09 <hppavilion[1]> Well, the primatives will be the corners and a function to locate the midpoint of a line derived from two points
22:08:43 <zzo38> Is it using Xlib or something else?
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22:09:29 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I don't know how I'm going to implement it yet. I'm considering Tkinter canvases, but that'd probably be pretty inefficient
22:12:37 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing the doc here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EVsJB5JIBcSDUjAx4kvr_-cP707Qqktg1Frcp-W4xhw/edit?usp=sharing
22:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone feels like providing their input directly.
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22:19:56 <hppavilion[1]> What would the best type of curve/waveform/whatever be to use for this? I need something powerful, where I can basically declare a widget's location as being at all intersections between two of these forms.
22:20:43 <hppavilion[1]> Fourier series perhaps? Probably not. Bezier curves are my current usage, but that seems a bit stupid, as they're more for graphics
22:21:29 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe use a geometry manager based on a hybrid between Polar Coordinates and the Golden Spiral?
22:25:16 <myname> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/namespaceseparator#rating wat
22:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to make this the INTERCAL of GUIs, designed to be entirely unlike normal GUI languages
22:31:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Esolang Adjectives]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44598&oldid=44580 * Hppavilion1 * (+534) Added classes
22:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Do you have any widget suggestions? Things entirely different from how you've normally interacted with computers
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22:32:34 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the basic unit of interaction should be dragging
22:32:44 <ais523> dragging letters into a text box in order to create words, and the like
22:33:19 <hppavilion[1]> Click a letter, click a node, click a final destination?
22:35:08 <izabera> that thing on php.net should say criterion, i believe
22:35:24 <oerjan> english has a tendency not to care about that
22:35:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: greek vs. latin
22:35:41 <oerjan> you might consider both correct
22:36:34 <oerjan> i'm used to -on in english but in norwegian kriterium is obligatory. well, or the entirely norwegianized kriterie
22:37:03 <oerjan> hm is the latter actually common...
22:37:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: On second thought, dragging as the basic unit fo interaction isn't quite esoteric enough xD. I mean, phones do that all the time. Dragging and tapping.
22:38:00 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well tapping normally takes precedence to dragging
22:38:08 <ais523> you could add a rule that tapping something always deletes it, for example
22:38:13 <hppavilion[1]> How about mouse /releasing/ is used instead of mouse /pressing/?
22:38:15 <ais523> which would be logical and follow no normal rules
22:38:25 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: actually most dialog boxes in practice use mouse releasing
22:38:28 <ais523> you just haven't noticed
22:38:32 <ais523> open a random dialog box and try it
22:38:41 <ais523> (hyperlinks, OTOH, are normally based on mouse pressing)
22:39:08 <myname> ais523: they do, but only if the mousedown also happened there
22:39:17 <hppavilion[1]> Buttons don't go off until you mouse up, giving you a last-minute opportunity to change your mind
22:39:27 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps mouse movement as the basic unit, without clicking?
22:39:37 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: look up "dwell click"
22:40:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I think I know what that is. I have noticed that, as a matter of fact, I realize that syaing that is stupid now.
22:40:36 <hppavilion[1]> Toggle-click and mouse movement will be the basic unit
22:40:57 <hppavilion[1]> Click to enable a widget, move your mouse to interact with it, leave to undo
22:41:01 <oerjan> clearly your GUI should be cat-based hth
22:41:53 <hppavilion[1]> So to press a button, you: Enter the button, click the button, move to the "On" area of the button, click again to keep the button on, leave to cause changes to be enacted
22:42:58 <myname> you could also consider forcing the user to use the mouse and the keyboard at the exact same time
22:43:08 <boily> I need a cat. cats are fluffy.
22:43:19 <myname> i.e. no typing without holding a mouse button
22:44:05 <zzo38> You use different mouse button one for click on, one button for click off, one button for menu, two buttons at same time for delete, etc
22:44:45 <myname> forcing the user to type with one hand sounds funny to me
22:44:51 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That would be annoying because on some laptops that's impossible
22:45:09 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i don't think so
22:45:16 <myname> even if it does: so what?
22:45:20 <hppavilion[1]> I know that I can't press too many buttons at one time on my laptop, and mouse click turns off when I press a button (which makes it literally impossible to tower in minecraft)
22:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: The GUI is supposed to be Esoteric, not useless
22:46:01 <myname> it isn't useless if you cannot use it on "some laptops" (whichever that may be)
22:46:20 <zzo38> Maybe, if you left-click then you can type on it (if you left-click on multiple widgets then you can type in all of them at the same time) and if you right-click then it is cancel, might also be one kind of strange way to make them?
22:46:24 <hppavilion[1]> I think that if it won't work for everyone with compatible software, it counts as useless
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22:46:40 <myname> you can always put a mouse on your laptop
22:46:57 <hppavilion[1]> Forcing the user to buy new hardware to use something /also/ makes it useless.
22:47:19 <myname> like anybody would have no mouse at all
22:47:35 <myname> did you know you need a computer to programm in bf?
22:47:45 <myname> you cannot force people to buy computers!
22:48:02 <hppavilion[1]> PROGRAMMING PHILOSOPHY 101: If it won't work for everybody who has the right software, then it's useless for them, and you should treat it as if it were useless for everyone
22:48:12 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I don't have a mouse, I just use a trackpad.
22:48:24 <hppavilion[1]> My parents are divorced, so a stationary PC isn't an option for me.
22:49:00 <myname> it will render linux as useless
22:49:15 <myname> because there are some laptops that don't work with it
22:49:41 <myname> it will also render windows as useless
22:49:47 <myname> basically every os is useless
22:49:54 <myname> as is every software ever written
22:50:04 <izabera> divorce is #1 cause of laptop sales
22:50:10 <zzo38> Will FreeDOS work if the computer is a real PC though?
22:50:32 <myname> zzo38: doea freedos work on avr?
22:50:56 <zzo38> I don't expect so, unless you have a PC emulator on it
22:51:08 <hppavilion[1]> In python, is there a way to capture keypresses, even when a window is out-of-focus?
22:51:18 <hppavilion[1]> Or would I need to use a keyboard driver for that?
22:52:01 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, my point is: for every software in existence there is hardware that will not fully work with it, therefore every software is useless
22:52:07 <zzo38> A real PC would be x86 anyways
22:52:17 <MDude> <hppavilion[1]> I think that if it won't work for everyone with compatible software, it counts as useless
22:52:24 <MDude> But if it doens't work than it's not compatible?
22:53:02 <zzo38> Do you expect to run TeX on a Nintendo Famicom? I don't expect.
22:53:03 <MDude> I mean unles it's something like a language barrier.
22:53:18 <myname> zzo38: therefore, tex is useless
22:53:25 <myname> as is every irc client
22:53:42 <boily> cf. Pokémon plays Twitch.
22:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> My point is supposed to be this, and I was trying to express it poetically (which I really shouldn't do): Software should be designed to work on all computers that it /should/ work on. You can't leave out people with laptops, you have to at /least/ have an option to change to fix it.
22:53:59 <zzo38> But you can use a different IRC client or whatever for the different computer, I suppose.
22:54:14 <zzo38> If you have a way to connect Famicom to internet then you could probably make a gopher client for it.
22:54:42 <myname> hppavilion[1]: the option is to just buy a mouse for about 5 bucks or so
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22:54:51 <zzo38> And most computers can emulate the Famicom so even if you have a program only for Famicom you may be able to run it on another computer too.
22:55:17 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But if you make users buy other stuff for a software to work that doesn't seem to them like it should be necessary, they're going to get pissed off
22:55:26 <zzo38> (Of course no matter what you do you will not get all software on all computers)
22:55:51 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that is one big issue for software that will probably never be used
22:55:58 <shachaf> zzo38: Can you invent an IRC: The Puzzling?
22:56:12 <MDude> One problem is that computers that can't handle as many button presses were made after software that required multiple button presses.
22:57:11 <MDude> And I'd rather push for better keyboards by making software that uses them.
22:59:17 <MDude> It's your GUI though, so don't let my opinion get in the way of your own priorities.
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23:05:36 <zzo38> I was once working on making Z-machine implementation on Famicom, but I could not quite get it to work, and it uses an unusual mapper that I do not have an implementation of on this computer.
23:16:12 <FreeFull> I don't imagine entering text with a controller is too nice anyway
23:17:57 <zzo38> It is using the keyboard to enter text
23:18:18 <zzo38> The program requires the keyboard.
23:19:17 <FreeFull> zzo38: I wonder how difficult a Dreamcast implementation would be
23:19:43 <zzo38> I don't know much about Dreamcast programming.
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23:33:47 <zzo38> If you can make C program on Dreamcast then it may be possible to port ZORKMID or something like that
23:40:07 <hppavilion[1]> Is the inverse of exponentation roots or logarithms?
23:46:33 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: it's not directly applicable because there is more than one argument. It becomes applicable after fixing either the base (--> logarithms) or the exponent (--> roots).
23:46:51 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the left inverse and right inverse are different
23:47:01 <ais523> so you need to specify which you mean
23:47:11 <ais523> (is there a name for functions where the two inverses are the same?)
23:47:22 <ais523> (binary functions, that is)
23:47:35 <int-e> ais523: is that weaker than commutativity?
23:48:10 <ais523> let's see… let l be the left inverse and r be the right inverse
23:48:40 <ais523> err, I can't see any way this necessarily implies commutativity
23:49:14 <ais523> ah right, ab = r(a)aba = l(a)aba = ba
23:49:35 <ais523> because if it's not commutative I can't move the inverse from one end to the other
23:50:44 <int-e> we also don't have associativity
23:52:57 <izabera> do you guys know the land of lisp?
23:55:21 <int-e> ais523: we also have clashing notions of "inverse" here; we started out with inverse functions... so if f is the binary function, we'd have g and h such that f(g(a,b),b) = a and f(a,h(a,b)) = b. (f(x,y) = x^y; g(x,y) = x^{1/y}; h(x,y) = log_x y)
23:56:56 <int-e> (that raises the question whether g and h are the same if g(a,b) = h(a,b) or if g(a,b) = h(b,a) for all a and b.)
23:59:31 <int-e> The latter choice makes commutative f work: If g is an inverse and we define h(a,b) = g(b,a) then a = f(g(a,b),b) = f(b,g(a,b)) = f(b,h(b,a)).
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