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01:07:49 <zzo38> I have implemented a \protected command in TeX which is a bit similar to the \protected command in e-TeX, but it does not quite make the control sequence unexpandable though. I intend to try to figure out if some trick is possible (perhaps involving conditionals) so that it expands into itself, but otherwise can still work
01:09:32 <zzo38> But maybe it is impossible and you have to stay with the current way
01:16:41 <zzo38> But even during expansion you can define an undefined control sequence to mean \relax so maybe that can be used. (But probably not)
01:53:15 <tswett> Is sin(a*pi) always an algebraic number when a is a rational number?
02:03:12 <izabera> http://divisbyzero.com/2010/10/28/trigonometric-functions-and-rational-multiples-of-pi/
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02:52:20 <zzo38> My \protected macro makes a macro that expands into something like \begingroup\everymath={}\everyhbox={}\mathcode255=32768\setbox0=\hbox\bgroup$^^ff{xyzzy$$}
02:53:13 <zzo38> (I know it is strange!)
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02:55:49 <zzo38> Do you know how to improve it?
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03:17:47 <MDude> Sounds more like it'd be the other kind of esoteric.
03:18:43 <MDude> An idea I have for a silly math-based chat system might interest you.
03:19:22 <MDude> An equation based chat where every user has a number instead of a name.
03:19:45 <MDude> And people can only sen messages in the from of mathematical statements that equal their user number.
03:20:20 <MDude> Messages being displayed as equations.
03:21:11 <MDude> For now I leave implementation to fungot.
03:21:11 <fungot> MDude: is the balrog following in the footsteps of another very special date. please, put on the packages he sends home, against the wishes of an old enemy, and smote the deepest, darkest secrets of atlantis.
03:21:58 <MDude> I think fungot wants me to do it myself.
03:21:58 <fungot> MDude: hail, hobbit merchant, practised with bow, can i do to help.
03:26:59 <MDude> It's probably a while before I get to it, actually.
03:33:05 * pikhq wishes it were more practical to obtain the event legendaries
03:33:28 <pikhq> I caught all of the ones it's possible to, but dammit, I'm not Japanese. How am I supposed to get Jirachi?
03:39:41 <MDude> I dunno if that's a bad idea.
03:40:08 <MDude> Filesystems and processes are already organized as a tree.
03:41:07 <MDude> And invoking functions from one process to another sounds more efficient and meggase system-like than using text streams for everything.
03:42:15 <MDude> Running processes could be considered isntances of the executable file they run from, which can be considered the class.
03:43:50 <MDude> In fact I'm pretty sure the oeprating system in the programming OS making book I stopped reading after a while is made in an object-oriented language.
03:44:45 <MDude> http://www.nand2tetris.org/course.php
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04:05:20 <MDude> An interesting idea.
04:05:33 <zzo38> Mathematical objects.
04:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> Tiny cubicle (for a very small OS)? Bathroom? Kitchen? HENGE?
04:06:09 <MDude> I've been wanting to make an operating system made for other settings, though I think some might be a bit more practical.
04:06:33 <MDude> Like family-oriented OS, with networking features made to reflect family structute rather than corporate structure.
04:06:42 <MDude> Let me brush up on what hanges are.
04:07:02 <MDude> You mean the neolithic things?
04:07:37 <zzo38> Have any of you solved any of my Magic: the Puzzling?
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04:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> Well. Runes, Henges, etc. I'm off to make DruidzOS
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05:41:03 <zzo38> Is there a program to render a Magic: the Puzzling game as a PNG or DVI or something?
05:43:31 <hppavilion[1]> TeX? if so, then any TeX builder/compiler/whatever should work; Converting TeX to DVI is pretty much the basic TeXy thing
05:46:40 <zzo38> No it is just a ordinary text file
05:47:40 <zzo38> (Whatever program to render would also need to get the card texts, since I haven't included those; preferably those which are current at the time of the specified rule date)
05:57:27 <zzo38> Did you look at any of these puzzles?
05:59:18 <shachaf> zzo38: Is there a historical Oracle text database?
05:59:40 <myname> http://i.imgur.com/Whr9Shz.png lol
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06:02:18 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know, but there is Yawgatog which has all of the changelogs
06:02:37 <zzo38> (As well as the changelogs for the rules, too)
06:02:55 <shachaf> Are those publicly available somewhere?
06:03:50 <zzo38> Yes. http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/
06:05:00 <shachaf> Ah, I was thinking of Datatog.
06:07:56 <zzo38> See if you can figure out any of these puzzles: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.3 hopefully I can make up some more later; if you make some up I would like those one too please!
06:08:17 <zzo38> I would want to have them in a book!
06:09:04 <shachaf> Are there copyright issues with publishing a book of Magic: the Puzzlings?
06:09:33 <zzo38> Yes probably it is; I would want Wizards of the Coast to do it if they can.
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06:29:00 <shachaf> zzo38: puzzle 2 should say "he or she"
06:29:09 <shachaf> That's how Magic: the Puzzlings should be phrased.
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06:30:24 <zzo38> I don't think so. Rosewater even mentions the name of the opponent; in my puzzles I have not, but sometimes include the gender because English is a stupid language.
06:31:01 <shachaf> I think it's general Wizards of the Coast policy when referring to an unknown person.
06:31:37 <shachaf> At least where Magic: the Gathering is concerned.
06:31:48 <zzo38> Yes, when they print the card it would do so, that is correct.
06:32:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: I agree with zzo38. the cards say "he or she" because they don't want other people to suggest that Wizards wants only male or only female players to play the games. but the description of a particular game can use just "he" or just "she"
06:34:06 <shachaf> zzo38 also sometimes uses "he" in proposed card text, which is what I was thinking of.
06:35:01 <shachaf> I agree on this aspect of English, anyway.
06:35:03 <zzo38> Yes, or rarely "she"; but clearly they would be printed differently (I also tend to omit reminder text too, even if it is reminder text they would probably print)
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06:36:30 <shachaf> Well, reminder text is different. It's not part of the rules.
06:36:48 <shachaf> But a card that says "target player discards his hand" can only be used on male players.
06:37:07 <shachaf> (I suppose that people who are neither "he" nor "she" are immune to many Magic: the Gathering effects.)
06:37:10 <zzo38> If you are playing Un-cards then perhaps yes. But that is not what I am doing here
06:37:33 <b_jonas> as for the reminder texts, my biggest grief about that is that they printed Spreading Seas without a reminder text.
06:37:33 <zzo38> Therefore, people who are neither "he" nor "she" are not immune (unless they are not playing the game, of course)
06:38:16 <shachaf> b_jonas: The reminder text should say that it loses other land types and so on?
06:38:59 <shachaf> That's a scow rule anyway.
06:39:08 <zzo38> My problem with reminder texts is that Oracle texts include them as searchable text. They should be a separate search field when you want to search Oracle texts rather than printed texts.
06:39:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: losing land types isn't the tricky part. the tricky part is that it also loses abilities that were printed on the card (such as if it's a non-basic land with a fancy mana ability; but does not lose abilities it gets in later layers)
06:39:37 <zzo38> I agree that some of the rules are klugy.
06:39:43 <b_jonas> shachaf: losing land types is normal, that's how type setting abilities work (with one exception)
06:40:01 <izabera> why do all fantasy games have black lotuses?
06:43:14 <shachaf> We should have a Magic: the Gathering bot in here.
06:43:52 <shachaf> The exception is "artifact creature"?
06:44:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: and I don't think players who are neither he or she are immune. "he or she" in a rules text always refers to a player who's mentioned previously in text, so that rule I can't find now might apply, that rule which says an effect that says “that [property]” to refer to an object previously mentioned by the text still refers to an object even if it no longer has that characteristic or property mentioned.
06:52:47 <b_jonas> maybe I was, I'm confusing it with something else or something
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06:55:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44599&oldid=44527 * 82.116.252.147 * (+766)
06:56:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44600&oldid=44599 * 82.116.252.147 * (+0)
06:56:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44601&oldid=44600 * 82.116.252.147 * (+4)
06:57:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44602&oldid=44601 * 82.116.252.147 * (-2)
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07:15:24 <zzo38> Has Shahrazad ever been used in Magic: the Puzzling before?
07:16:01 <shachaf> Magic: the Puzzling is the name of a book, right?
07:16:33 <zzo38> It is, although I mean in general and not only the book of that title.
07:19:10 <zzo38> Concordant Crossroads seem to be common in many puzzles though
07:23:04 <ais523> zzo38: because to make a puzzle difficult, you typically need a lot of things happening on one turn
07:23:09 <ais523> and haste is a good way to make that useful
07:24:57 <shachaf> Chess puzzles often continue over several turns.
07:25:03 <shachaf> I suppose determinism makes that easier.
07:25:41 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I can see that is why; it is why I had include such thing too
07:26:39 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, chess puzzles (and tsume shogi) usually do involve several turns; in Magic: the Puzzling it is usually only one but sometimes more than one or multiple.
07:27:11 <zzo38> The book titled "Magic: the Puzzling" does not use Shahrazad, but has Rosewater ever used it in any other puzzle and has anyone else ever done so?
07:27:34 <shachaf> There's also another card that creates a subgame, right?
07:27:49 <shachaf> Maybe the only other card is an un-card.
07:28:16 <zzo38> Yes I think the only other card is un-card
07:28:34 <shachaf> That card has you play a subgame under the table. What if you're not playing on a table?
07:29:24 <zzo38> Then use the other table!
07:29:45 <ais523> shachaf: there's an official un-ruling that if you have to start playing a subgame under the table when you're already under the table, you have to find a different table to play under
07:29:55 <ais523> this would seem to be a similar situation
07:30:14 <shachaf> Yes, I was specifically thinking of the situation where you're not playing on a table because you're playing under the table.
07:30:24 <shachaf> What if your table has a table underneath it, though?
07:30:38 <shachaf> I suppose that table still qualified as "a different table".
07:36:31 <myname> tsume go also involve several turns
07:40:54 <ais523> it should be noted that un-rulings are possibly not entirely serious
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08:08:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44603&oldid=44602 * Jabutosama * (+996)
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08:19:18 <zzo38> I once asked what actions are considered atomic for the purposes of conceding, and I have been told that nothing is. This allows a lot of possibilities.
08:27:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, but there's also some tricky phrasing in the rule about undoing invalid actions (such as trying to cast a spell that has no valid target) that imply that it doesn't undo conceding, so you can't just concede very quickly when someone says he announces he casts Lava Spike to stop him from casting it and then undo the conceding because the casting is rolled back.
08:29:06 <zzo38> I know that, you can't undo conceding, and you aren't supposed to do anyways.
08:29:08 <b_jonas> no wait, I don't mean Lava Spike. let's say Duress.
08:29:55 <ais523> b_jonas: I was thinking more, suppose that someone's only source of red mana is a Mountain you own (but they control)
08:30:11 <ais523> they start to cast Lava Spike, you concede before they can tap your Mountain for mana
08:30:25 <b_jonas> in fact, you can't undo conceding even in a multiplayer game with more than two teams where the game wouldn't immediately end when you concede.
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08:31:22 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that can work, but I think there's also a rule that if you concede, then all your teammates lose, so you can't save your team this way. the only thing you can do is influence what opponent wins.
08:31:39 <zzo38> I would prefer to add another rule: Whenever a player concedes, the other players have the chance to choose to concede simultaneously with that player. (Not relevant for the top-level of a 1.vs.1 game)
08:32:03 <ais523> b_jonas: what if your teammates have angel's grace active?
08:32:17 <ais523> I believe your teammates can survive a concession due to formats like Star
08:32:19 <zzo38> b_jonas: Are you sure? I think only in Two Headed Giant?
08:32:40 <Taneb> Does the complexity class of Magic change in 4-player commander?
08:32:42 <zzo38> In a normal team game you can concede and not have your entire team to lose.
08:32:50 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think Angel's Grace saves you from conceding, so I don't think it saves a teammate either, btu let me check the rules
08:32:56 <shachaf> ais523: Conceding in a Star game is very rude, though.
08:32:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, let me re-read the rules
08:33:11 <zzo38> No effect can stop any player from conceding.
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08:33:20 <shachaf> Well, I think the Star games we used to play weren't the typical ones, actually.
08:33:26 <b_jonas> Obviously you have to be able to concede any time, even during a spell, even without un-games.
08:33:50 <shachaf> Can you concede a subgame?
08:33:52 <ais523> Taneb: I don't think so; I currently believe that Magic is in one of the lower uncomputable complexity classes, even in 2-player 60 card Vintage
08:34:02 <zzo38> Yes I believe you can concede a subgame independently of the main game
08:34:19 <zzo38> (And I can think of situations where you would want to do so)
08:34:26 <shachaf> I used to know a lot of MtG rules but I've forgotten a lot.
08:34:52 <shachaf> My Rules Advisor thing expires next week.
08:35:10 <shachaf> Then it'll be a felony to provide legal advice or something?
08:35:11 <Taneb> I actually played magic yesterday
08:35:20 <ais523> zzo38: the situations aren't even that rare
08:35:30 <b_jonas> oh, you're right, I was wrong
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08:35:34 <ais523> back when Shahrazad was unbanned, if someone played it against you in a tournament
08:35:41 <ais523> conceding the subgame was normally the best option
08:35:43 <b_jonas> the rule that a player conceding makes his team lose is a rule only for Two-Headed Giant
08:35:47 <ais523> Taneb: physical cards? mtgo? proxies?
08:35:52 <Taneb> ais523: physical cards
08:36:04 <Taneb> Commander, two players
08:36:14 <Taneb> A friend lent me a deck
08:36:22 <shachaf> I might play this weekend.
08:36:22 <b_jonas> so in normal multiplayer game, I can indeed concede to save my teammate, such as when an opponent casts Hex
08:36:29 <b_jonas> it's rarely a good strategy, but it can work
08:36:39 <shachaf> The trouble is, the people I play with (including me) all hate playing this game.
08:36:50 <Taneb> Lost the first game, because I never got enough ramp to get going, but then I won the two following games
08:36:53 <ais523> shachaf: if everyone hates it, that's a good reason to not play
08:37:08 <zzo38> ais523: Why was that?
08:37:09 <Taneb> shachaf: indeed, some say that not playing is the only winning move
08:37:14 <b_jonas> Commander with two players?
08:37:21 <b_jonas> isn't Commander a multiplayer format?
08:37:30 <Taneb> What stops you playing with two players?
08:37:40 <shachaf> I think "hate" might be oversimplified.
08:37:45 <zzo38> Yes you can play Commander with two players; rule 903.2 explicitly says so.
08:37:56 <ais523> zzo38: basically because decks that played Shahrazad were either trying to delay the game, or using repeated uses of Wishes to recycle their cards
08:38:03 <Taneb> b_jonas: I do not have a good memory for magic cards
08:38:06 <ais523> and conceding reduces their ability to do either of those things
08:38:18 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you commandeer a deck?
08:38:29 <Taneb> shachaf: essentially
08:38:31 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a format known as Duel Commander or French Commander which is basically just 2 player commander, but the banlist is different because some cards are broken or nonbroken depending on the number of players
08:38:41 <Taneb> But my commander was RGB5, I think a 7/5, gives all my creatures haste and says cascade, cascade
08:38:50 <zzo38> I am not concerned about delaying the game, although the other possibility is something I have thought of. Of course it doesn't work if you have only 1 life point remaining
08:39:10 <b_jonas> ais523: ok. I'd prefer ordinary singleton 60 or 100 card constructed, without the special commander thingies
08:39:34 <shachaf> 100 cards seems like too many to me.
08:39:35 <ais523> b_jonas: "100 card singleton" is a format with minimal official Wizards support (i.e. I think they acknowledge it exists and not much else)
08:39:36 <Taneb> And my opponent's commander let him steal sourceries from the tops of people's decks up to the casting cost?
08:39:43 <shachaf> But I haven't played Commander much.
08:39:58 <ais523> Taneb: those decks sounds like they were designed for multiplayer
08:40:12 <ais523> (because commander decks designed for duels are normally faster)
08:40:31 <Taneb> He had the decks to play later that evening with a bunch of people
08:40:40 <Taneb> And it was the two of us hanging out between lectures
08:40:44 <b_jonas> I've actually played a black deck that was almost singleton, with I think only one (non-basic) card duplicated, and that I could convert to a 60 card singleton deck easily. It wasn't a good deck, mind you.
08:40:49 <zzo38> I have never played Commander, and I don't play Magic: the Gathering much at all (I do sometimes, but rarely), but I am interested in Magic: the Puzzling and would buy more books if they made them
08:40:59 <b_jonas> I played it in ordinary 60 card constructed that is.
08:41:21 <b_jonas> This is because black has so many different cheap removal spells that I can just pack all different ones and still have choices to make.
08:41:27 <shachaf> zzo38: If I made an unofficial Magic: the Puzzling book, would you buy it?
08:42:02 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I expect so (if it isn't too expensive, and preferably if it can be paid in Canadian money)
08:42:49 <Taneb> I am still a very weak player but I am getting better
08:43:09 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm indeed, the comprehensive rules specifically say "903.2. A Commander game may be a two-player game or a multiplayer game."
08:43:41 <Taneb> But one of my goals is to become a half-decent player without spending any money on magic
08:43:59 <shachaf> What is the critical Funge98 vulnerability in the topic?
08:44:16 <Taneb> I need to get dressed and go to lectures
08:44:20 <zzo38> Taneb: That is very difficult, even if you are using only proxies
08:45:04 <zzo38> But you can just play with other people you can borrow their cards. And occasionally there are tournaments you don't have to pay
08:45:16 <shachaf> I would give Taneb a bunch of free cards if he was in the area.
08:45:20 <b_jonas> "But my commander was RGB5, I think a 7/5, gives all my creatures haste and says cascade, cascade" -- do you mean Maelstrom Wanderer? That costs 5URG, not 5BRG.
08:45:57 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, B is for Black, though.
08:45:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, black should be K, but that's too late
08:46:20 <zzo38> It was like that ever since the game was invented.
08:46:32 <b_jonas> we're stuck with B=(black mana symbol), U=(blue mana symbol), Q=(untap symbol)
08:46:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: and no, S=(snow mana symbol)
08:47:05 <shachaf> There are so many names for combinations of colors.
08:47:07 <b_jonas> I mean, you could say snow mana shouldn't exist, but still
08:47:38 <shachaf> I might still remember the names for the two-color combinations (Ravnica guilds, right?), but I'm hopeless at the three-color combinations.
08:47:44 <shachaf> It doesn't help that people make up bad slang for them.
08:48:13 <myname> there was a ürogramming game at a google contest, wasn't it?
08:48:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: are there? most of the names are just the names of the Ravnica guilds, the Alara shards, and the Tarkir khans
08:48:49 <shachaf> I never played Alara and I don't remember the Tarkir khans.
08:48:59 <b_jonas> for four-color combinations, you're screwed, though I think zzo38 had some names for them
08:49:19 <shachaf> They could be named in terms of what they aren't.
08:49:20 <zzo38> The names I used are the same as names other people had used for four-colors
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08:50:10 <shachaf> That would be an easy system with half the memorization.
08:50:14 <zzo38> I like that, although it is not the convention
08:50:29 <ais523> shards (WUB, UBR, etc.): esper, grixis, jund, naya, bant; wedges (WUR, etc.): jeskai, sultai, mardu, temur, azban
08:50:40 <ais523> however, I dislike the use of shard/wedge names to name colour combinations only
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08:50:43 <ais523> because they also refer to decks
08:50:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: but what names are they? Yore-Tiller, Glint-Eye, Dune-Brood, Ink-Treader, Witch-Maw?
08:51:10 <ais523> something like "jund" is an established deck in Modern, and players know how it behaves
08:51:26 <ais523> and a black/red/green deck built on different lines, IMO that shouldn't also be called "jund" because it's just confusing
08:52:25 <b_jonas> the shards are easy to remember because they're alphabetized: Bant is white centered and first in alphabetic order, Esper is blue centered and second in alphabetic order, etc
08:53:02 <b_jonas> ais523: it's spelled "abzan", not "azban"
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08:55:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't think that works, because "cored" would be a bad name
08:57:15 <zzo38> I have thought of "Functional Commander", where you are not allowed two cards that differ only in name, in addition to standard Commander rules.
08:58:16 <ais523> zzo38: but what if one is strictly better than the other? or the two are the same in nearly all circumstances?
08:58:24 <ais523> e.g. would you allow both lightning strike and volcanic hammer?
08:59:22 <zzo38> ais523: Yes you can have both, as their types differ.
08:59:40 <zzo38> Therefore it is not "differ only in name"
08:59:46 <ais523> so any change is sufficent
08:59:53 <ais523> what about creature type?
09:00:01 <zzo38> Yes. Creature type changed is also sufficient.
09:00:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't really like that. I like the idea of using names, so that you can use both Terramorphic Expanse and the other land that's the same.
09:00:30 <ais523> b_jonas: Evolving Wilds
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09:00:49 <ais523> interesting that you remembered the other one, Wizards seem to prefer Evolving Wilds to Terramorphic Expanse
09:00:58 <ais523> (although Terramorphic came first)
09:01:20 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, because I have old cards in my collection, so I have four of Terramorphic
09:01:28 <b_jonas> but I don't have Evolving Wilds (yet)
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09:01:35 <b_jonas> This might lead to problems like players having to seek out rare cards like Fyndhorn Elves or portal cards,
09:01:43 <ais523> I probably have four of Terramorphic, it was all over the place when I used to draft
09:01:53 <zzo38> It is not allowed both Llanowar Elves and Fyndhorn Elves though; you must choose one or the other. If opponent has to guess the name of the card, they don't know which one you have; put the one opponent think you don't have! Or, if you are playing a variant with teams, use the same name or different name depending on what works best with the decks being used.
09:01:54 <ais523> also people have to seek out rare cards anyway, if their deck needs them
09:01:59 <b_jonas> but that's not really worse than the way people have to seek out expensive cards right now.
09:02:09 <ais523> for example there's a Legacy deck where most of the cards are cheap, but it really needs copies of Imperial Seal to function
09:02:22 <b_jonas> I prefer the rule about English names.
09:02:48 <b_jonas> ais523: is Imperial Seal a dupe of some other card?
09:03:19 <ais523> if it was, the other card would almost certainly be played
09:03:41 <b_jonas> this happens all over magic, in most formats
09:04:09 <b_jonas> you still remember when people were playing 16 mythic rare planeswalkers, including a version of Jace, in their standard deck, right?
09:04:32 <ais523> oh, apparently it has an instant-speed version, which is banned in Legacy (which is why nobody plays it)
09:04:54 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think so
09:05:01 <ais523> 16 mythic-rare /cards/, that's believable
09:05:02 <b_jonas> I remember watching a practice match of such a game with all the planeswalkers replaced by proxies. It was very confusing.
09:05:06 <ais523> but I don't think Superfriends has ever been tier 1
09:05:13 <ais523> and it's the only deck that would use that many
09:07:07 <zzo38> Another kind of game would be "Standard Solitaire", which has the same rules of normal game except that rule 104.2a ("A player still in the game wins the game if all of that player's opponents have left the game.") is omitted.
09:07:28 <ais523> what's the win condition? effects that cause you to win only?
09:08:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: that sounds strange
09:08:19 <zzo38> A deck for use with such solitaire game would be really strange
09:08:28 <ais523> I remember winning with Coalition Victory in draft (twice, in fact)
09:08:35 <ais523> (same deck though, two different matches)
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09:08:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think it would be.
09:09:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: you'd just need like two cards in the 60 card deck that were generally dead during most of the game, and you'd play it at your leisure after the opponent leaves the game
09:09:42 <b_jonas> the two cards could be Elixir of Immortality and Helix Pinnacle
09:09:47 <ais523> b_jonas: it's "solitaire" so there probably are no opponents
09:10:02 <ais523> because that's what "solitaire" means
09:10:09 <b_jonas> ais523: but that's not what the rules zzo38 said say
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09:10:33 <zzo38> Well, if you play solitaire that is different, and all other deck-building conditions are ignored (including minimum 60 cards); you would use the deck to make the game more interesting, which would have to be really strange for solitaire playing!
09:10:40 <b_jonas> ais523: rule 101.1 is still working
09:10:43 <mroman_> I'm getting a weird case of GHC stack-space overflow: current limit is 33696 bytes.
09:11:04 <ais523> mroman_: that's… not very big
09:15:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, what all deck-building conditions. can you use non-Magic cards? un-cards? twenty Black Lotus proxies and twenty Plague Rats?
09:16:55 <mroman_> It overflows if I print the structure
09:17:01 <zzo38> Presumably it must be designed using official non-un-cards, although it is not a tournament so you can use proxies if you wish
09:17:15 <mroman_> parsec doesn't stack overflow
09:17:19 <mroman_> parsec will stack overflow
09:17:36 <ais523> mroman_: remember that Haskell is lazy
09:17:46 <ais523> the stack's going to be a bit deeper (inside the print) when you start to evaluate it
09:17:53 <ais523> that might be enough to tip the stack over the limit
09:18:29 <b_jonas> if you don't print it, how do you make sure it's evaluated deeply?
09:20:59 <mroman_> but I don't provide any implentation for show
09:23:08 <zzo38> You can also use standard deck rules if you wish; it is a solitaire game so you can play the variant you want to play.
09:24:23 <b_jonas> mroman_: dunno, ask ghc or the #haskell people
09:24:47 <b_jonas> it would have to use the default show, which I think exists and is based on showS or some such method
09:24:48 <ais523> zzo38: I think goldfishing is probably a better-balanced solitaire game with Magic cards
09:25:32 <zzo38> mroman_: Try it and see what happen
09:25:36 <ais523> you play against a hypothetical opponent who has a deck of 60 cards that can't be played (e.g. sorceries with no rules text or mana cost)
09:25:40 <ais523> and have to beat them on the first turn possible
09:27:21 <b_jonas> ais523: or a deck of 60 forests, and the opponent tries to play a forest from their hand at the first main phase of each turn but does not do much else (this isn't a complete spec, because it doesn't tell what she'd choose if you cast Gifts Ungiven or even just Cruel Edict if she controls creatures).
09:27:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I think someone pointed out that if the opponent is playing basic lands
09:27:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: This is why I made up the other game
09:28:00 <ais523> you can get an unrealistic advantage using land hosers
09:28:59 <b_jonas> ais523: how is that unrealistic? most people play some sort of lands. he's playing only one type of land, you don't get to play landwalkers of all five basic land types for free.
09:29:10 <ais523> b_jonas: well if you know which one it is
09:29:22 <ais523> also basic lands are kind-of rarely used nowadays
09:29:35 <ais523> at least in constructed
09:29:38 <b_jonas> what if he plays plains instead? there are few hosers for that, right?
09:29:53 <ais523> I think all basic land types have hosers
09:30:08 <ais523> I think it might actually be mountains that are the least hosable
09:30:23 <ais523> (you can play mountainwalkers but against a goldfish it doesn't matter because they aren't blocking anyway)
09:30:41 <zzo38> Regardless of what single land type there is also Magical Hack.
09:31:33 <b_jonas> there's Balance; Tithe; Knight of the White Orchid, but all of those work for any lands, basic or non-basic, and Balance makes the opponent sacrifice lands which isn't very powerful against a goldfish.
09:31:45 <ais523> I was thinking of things like Karma
09:32:32 <b_jonas> There's also Fellwar Stone and its land version (what's it called?), but those also work against many of the non-basic lands people typically play
09:32:53 <zzo38> I also thought Karma + Magical Hack
09:33:06 <b_jonas> hmm, is there something that helps you because the opponent has six or seven lands in their hand?
09:33:37 <ais523> there are definitely cards that punish the opponent for having a lot of cards in hand
09:33:43 <ais523> I can't think of one that targets land specifically
09:37:26 <b_jonas> there's some cards that destroy lands, and even one that makes an opponent discard a non-basic land card, but those aren't very useful in a goldfish usually
09:38:34 <mroman_> zzo38: it gives me said stackoverflow :)
09:41:04 <ais523> b_jonas: well it could help to fuel a deathrite shaman
09:41:20 <mroman_> I can't provide a "useful" show instance
09:41:29 <mroman_> because it'd need to be show :: a -> IO String
09:41:58 <mroman_> that's why I just wrote instance Show Foo
09:42:17 <mroman_> instance Show Foo where show x = "<IO>" works fine
09:42:53 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but those kinds of combos don't really give you an unfair advantage.
09:43:05 <b_jonas> you already have a lot of advantage in goldfish.
09:43:35 <b_jonas> and I think mountain would be worse than plains, because there's some giants in Lorwyn and kors in Zendikar who have mountainwalk
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09:44:13 <b_jonas> mountainwalk doesn't give you a big advantage in goldfish
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09:46:39 <b_jonas> does Painter's Servant affect cards in your sideboard, such as for Glittering Wish?
09:47:11 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the rules are these days.
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10:26:42 <Taneb> I just had a maths lecture in a backless chair
10:26:49 <Taneb> The chair was not designed to be backless
10:26:54 <Taneb> The back was just missing
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10:36:27 <Taneb> Is there a name for fields but without negation
10:36:58 <oerjan> for rings there's rigs
10:36:59 <Taneb> Like, say, probabilities
10:37:25 <oerjan> probabilities don't really have addition
10:37:39 <oerjan> 1 + 1 isn't a probability
10:37:53 <Taneb> Like non-negative reals
10:38:33 <oerjan> they're more like a convex whatchamacallit
10:40:26 <oerjan> the non-negatives are a "cone" in the reals iirc, but that doesn't say anything about division, it's a vector space thing.
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10:48:22 <Tefaj> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_high_school_algebra_problem
10:48:30 <Tefaj> Not sure if there's a corresponding thing for fields.
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10:49:29 <boily> ohayœ̄rjan gozaimasu!
10:49:39 <boily> . o O ( damn enter key in the way )
10:50:03 <oerjan> just disable it, who needs it anyway
10:55:14 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
10:56:35 <boily> speaking of pastries, I haven't drank a Fentimans in ages.
10:57:16 <oerjan> what about me, i have _never_ drunk one
10:59:09 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. please ship some to oerjan twh
10:59:41 <Taneb> oerjan: please send address and postage
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10:59:52 <Taneb> I haven't drank a Fentimans in ages, at least three weeks
11:01:38 <boily> I don't want to jump to conclusions too early, but there seems to be a serious impedance mismatch between the two sides of the Great Puddle...
11:01:51 <boily> are you sure your ages were properly calibrated last time?
11:02:59 <fizzie> They had the Curiosity Cola in our local grocery supermarket in Finland back a year or two ago, in the "imports" aisle.
11:03:26 <fizzie> I didn't think it was all that good, to be honest.
11:03:32 <Taneb> There's a sandwich shop next to the university which stocks it but you have to go early to get the curiosity cola
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11:15:16 <b_jonas> ais523: so instead of Stifle, you could take Soul Summons to get Phyrexian Dreadnought, but that doesn't work in the three-card variant you were saying, because there you don't have the Dreadnought in your library
11:17:51 <b_jonas> ais523: you could use Illusionary Mask (plus Phyrexian Dreadnought and Black Lotus, which amounts for three expensive cards, each of which is on the reserved list, but then, what did you expect from something with the Vintage ban list?)
11:18:32 <ais523> right, you expect a lot of Vinage-restricted cards to show up
11:19:53 <b_jonas> Illusionary Mask isn't restricted in Vintage. It's a crazy broken card in the modern sense, but you have to be broken harder than that to be restricted in Vintage.
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11:20:06 <b_jonas> And Phyrexian Dreadnought isn't that broken at all, I think.
11:20:38 <b_jonas> I mean, it's strong, with all the blink effects today it would be better to nerf it a bit, but it's not too broken.
11:21:14 <b_jonas> No wait, not blink effects. Blink doesn't help for Phyerxian Dreadnought. It helps for Krosan Cloudscraper only.
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11:24:08 <fizzie> <span style="text-decoration: blink;"> <!-- deliberately left open -->
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11:25:08 * boily stylishly mapoles fizzie
11:25:59 <fizzie> Just got a spam message saying only, and I quote, "CAN I DISCUSS WITH YOU."
11:29:03 <boily> did you discuss with them?
11:29:33 <fizzie> It's not even a question; it ends in a period.
11:30:40 <fizzie> There's also an inheritance of "$2.500`000`00USD" waiting for me; that's the weirdest grouping of digits.
11:30:50 <fizzie> Not sure if it's just two and a half dollars or what.
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11:47:14 <Taneb> fizzie: most likely
11:49:22 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> Is sin(a*pi) always an algebraic number when a is a rational number? <-- yes i think so. go via sin(z) = (e^(iz) - e^(-iz))/(2i) and then it's combinations of roots of unity.
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12:22:54 <oerjan> argh. must. not. read. magic. discussion.
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12:34:48 <oerjan> <mroman_> what happens if I do <mroman_> instance Show Foo <-- in the case of Show, you get infinite recursion because two of the methods have defaults in terms of each other.
12:35:52 <oerjan> however, this shouldn't blow stack because they're tail recursions.
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12:36:41 <oerjan> ah testing in GHCi you _do_ get a stack overflow.
12:38:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you typing with your feet?
12:38:21 <oerjan> (that's shows = showsPrec 0 iirc)
12:38:46 <oerjan> the ++ s part ruins the tail recursion
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12:46:46 <oerjan> mroman_: note that a dummy instance like show _ = "<IO>" means that "evaluating" a Foo at the GHCi prompt won't actually evaluate it at all.
12:47:26 <oerjan> you might put in a seq, but that'll only evaluate to the top constructor, as usual.
12:48:06 <oerjan> @let data X = X; instance Show X where show = "dummy"
12:48:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘X -> String’
12:48:15 <oerjan> @let data X = X; instance Show X where show _ = "dummy"
12:49:54 <oerjan> i suppose to test Parsec, it's enough since you get the "Right " printed.
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13:19:05 <JesseH> Idea. Jimmy, the esoteric language for cracking corn.
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13:30:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44604&oldid=44522 * Padarom * (+461) Adding interpreters
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14:02:17 <Taneb> Woo graph morphism
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15:01:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: an aura with the text "Enchant creature. / Permanents have protection from enchanted creature." would belong to what color? white or blue?
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16:26:20 <MDude> Doof, got disconnected last night.
16:29:40 <MDude> Was about to tell hppavilion[1] that there were already esoteric virtual machines, so using that as the hardware for an esoteric OS project would probably be a good choice.
16:30:08 <MDude> Also, mathematical objects are good.
16:32:03 <MDude> What I think would be nice is a language where the level of abstraction is sort of undefined.
16:32:22 <MDude> In that everything has a primary and optional secondary definition.
16:33:09 <MDude> The primary definitions are all in terms of other things that have primary definitions, and the secondary ones actually describe the object for a specific hardware implementation.
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16:34:58 <MDude> But the interpreter is free to ignore the secondary definitions in favor of the primary ones as much as it wants, even going in multiple loops.
16:36:33 <MDude> Since its choice of primary or secondary definition is undefined beyond "try to avoid leaking user level abstractions down to the hardware level while not running too slow".
16:38:25 <MDude> And the latter can be considered subjective, and depends on available processor speed and memory as well as what situation the computer is being applied in.
16:39:23 <MDude> And I don't see a reason to start with a different set of circularly definable objects than the oens on WIkipedia's page on mathematical objects.
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17:11:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44605&oldid=44405 * 109.190.184.38 * (+141) Adding a link to a tutorial to create a LLVM based brainfuck compiler
17:56:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: I would expect white but I really don't know.
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20:17:13 <VictorCL> any developer from sweden here?
20:19:31 <HackEgo> VictorCL: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:19:35 <HackEgo> Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
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20:21:26 <VictorCL> I am a web developer and I am moving to sweden next year and I would like info about on how to find a job there
20:21:51 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of the Desktop Metaphor, it would be based around the Henge Metaphor
20:22:47 <fizzie> I-don't-remember-who-it-was was collecting geographical coordinates of channel regulars, not sure if that list's in any way up to date, or available anywhere.
20:23:53 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Is that a very long nick or do you ACTUALLY not remember their name?
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20:24:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'd guess it's too long to actually be a nick, so...
20:24:08 <fizzie> I actually don't remember their name. Except that it was boily.
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20:24:46 <fizzie> http://lpaste.net/567927726028095488
20:25:04 <int-e> I usually assume that all nordic countries are represented here, but am not sure
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20:25:35 <fizzie> int-e: I couldn't name anyone from Denmark or Iceland offhand.
20:26:49 <VictorCL> what esoterric programming language?
20:27:16 <lambdabot> LOWI 062020Z 23003KT 160V300 9999 RA SCT060 BKN070 14/12 Q1011 NOSIG
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20:28:43 <VictorCL> hppavilion[1] maybe .. dont know about esolang either :P
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20:29:00 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
20:30:53 <VictorCL> so if you have lot of free time you get into esoteric programming?
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20:31:57 <int-e> It's a hobby for most people...
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20:36:14 <int-e> There's also a connection to research in theoretical computer science (more specifically computability theory, where people are interested, among other things, in minimal Turing-complete formalisms)
20:36:20 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to come up with an esoteric basis for UI metaphors...
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20:38:44 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: easy, brain waves ;)
20:38:44 <int-e> in fact it's an opportunity to join forces with the OTHER kind of esoterica... I'm afraid... let's pretend I never wrote this
20:39:15 <int-e> hi a ^= b; b ^= a; a ^= b;
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20:40:11 <int-e> XorSwap: how's your friend, a -= b; b += a; a = b - a?
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20:55:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Conor O'Brien * New user account
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20:57:10 <oerjan> hm i must be misremembering the name
20:57:17 * oerjan thought that was a haskeller
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20:58:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44606 * Conor O'Brien * (+244) Created page with "Hello! I am an aspiring Mathematics person and programming. I am currently into program language development, ergo, I start with simple, esoteric languages. Thanks for droppin..."
20:58:48 <oerjan> there's also conan, of course. very portmantish.
20:59:26 <shachaf> there's also O'Brien from 1984
20:59:50 <oerjan> hm was that the inner party man
21:00:23 <int-e> oerjan: did you know that you cost me an hour of sleep last night
21:00:58 <int-e> oerjan: I proved in Isabelle that kjoin (kjoin xs) = kjoin (map kjoin xs) but it was messier than I expected
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21:01:34 <shachaf> should've thought to logcheck
21:01:35 <int-e> kjoin xs = if [] `elem` xs then [] else concat xs
21:01:54 <oerjan> int-e: um you shouldn't use elem that requires Eq
21:02:21 <shachaf> kjoin xs | any null xs = [] | otherwise = concat xs
21:02:51 <oerjan> shachaf: that's what i had
21:03:07 <int-e> oerjan: right, I was translating back from Isabelle, where I had kjoin xss = (if [] ∈ set xss then [] else concat xss)
21:03:17 <shachaf> you shouldn't use booleans because booleans are scow hth
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21:03:56 <oerjan> i think shachaf might be overdoing it
21:04:06 <shachaf> i do think booleans are fairly scow
21:04:13 <shachaf> but i don't see an easy other way of doing it
21:04:21 <shachaf> given haskell's standard library
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21:06:08 <oerjan> my followup question now is whether there's any join for [] with the same Applicative that isn't concat when all lists are nonempty. i can show it must be a _permutation_ of concat.
21:06:29 <oerjan> (for any given list of lists.)
21:07:05 <oerjan> also, i think this monad i found is in spirit NonEmptyT Maybe
21:07:18 <oerjan> except NonEmptyT isn't defined anywhere i could find.
21:07:35 <shachaf> oerjan: you should mention it to dolio
21:08:10 <oerjan> while the _normal_ list is MaybeT NonEmpty
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21:09:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mineso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44607&oldid=26349 * Hppavilion1 * (-10) Fixed a CN
21:09:22 <oerjan> that seems to give too many empty lists.
21:09:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mineso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44608&oldid=44607 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) Fixed a "fixed" CN
21:10:36 <oerjan> shachaf: i did edit it into an SO answer
21:11:56 <oerjan> well ljoin and kjoin are the same.
21:12:23 <shachaf> i suppose i already knew that join wasn't injective
21:13:06 <shachaf> so it makes sense that ljoin = lkjoin even though l /= k
21:13:07 <oerjan> (the "maybe not" was to the MaybeT NonEmpty)
21:13:29 <hppavilion[1]> Is it safe to define a fungeoid as having instruction pointer direction, and not necessarily being multidimensional? (such as in Unefunge)?
21:14:08 <oerjan> shachaf: well i just made kjoin to @check that the two version were the same. i think.
21:14:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: Unefunge also needs deltas, i think, so distance as well as direction.
21:15:16 * oerjan doesn't know what happens if you allow only +-1
21:15:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah right. Should I make deltas be a required feature or just be a preferred feature
21:16:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well a funge /could/ be tape-based instead of stack-based (I think), so a Fungeoid could be TC without deltas by making it BF-convertible
21:16:01 <oerjan> well you don't need them if dimension > 1
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21:16:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: but going between [ and ] in bf is an arbitrary large jump
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21:17:27 <oerjan> your brain is fucked hth
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21:22:28 <int-e> oerjan's on a hth... highway to hell
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21:24:22 <int-e> this must not happen
21:25:23 <shachaf> http://dancrew2010.deviantart.com/art/TMNH-Design-1-332585425 hth
21:25:41 <shachaf> http://www.deviantart.com/art/Requested-Art-T-M-N-H-352432924
21:25:46 <shachaf> apparently these are quite popular to draw
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21:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> What weird ways to Fungeoids play with Instruction Execution Order?
21:43:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fungeoid]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44609&oldid=22429 * Hppavilion1 * (+4159) Made page good.
21:45:50 * hppavilion[1] vanishes silently into the night, a hero of the city of interwebzopolis
21:47:25 <int-e> . o O ( So tempted to fill that with "The Internet is for porn!" )
21:47:45 <HackEgo> Thanks, tamalor. Thamalor.
21:47:47 <HackEgo> Thanks, luption. Thuption.
21:48:06 <fizzie> It's good to have lots of thumption.
21:49:31 <int-e> Maybe I should fill it with "The Internet is really really great! / I have a fast connection so I don't have to wait! / There's always a new site / I surf all day and night / I'm almost surfing at the speed of light!" and keep it to the reader to fill in the gaps.
21:49:42 <int-e> s/keep/leave/ (urk)
21:51:22 <int-e> And of course I may be the only one still remembering that 2003 meme.
21:53:01 <int-e> And I got the lyrics slightly wrong and I'm talking to myself.
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21:54:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Star651]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44610&oldid=25981 * Hppavilion1 * (+104) /* Um. */ new section
21:56:00 <hppavilion[1]> What's that game called where the whole goal is to make up new rules?
21:59:09 <int-e> the game is nomic.
22:06:47 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:07:36 <b_jonas> Cueball in http://www.xkcd.com/1586/ reminds me to Guy Litter from the StickManStickMan webcomic, who has similar superpowers
22:09:07 <oerjan> also, the Pauli Effect
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22:19:02 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to start playing Nomic with some friends
22:20:19 <int-e> new rule, we shall only discuss nomic in years whose number according to the gregorian calendar is a prime number
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22:22:37 <oerjan> oops someone actually spoke in ##nomic but left before we noticed
22:22:55 <oerjan> (it's not very active)
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22:33:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44611 * Conor O'Brien * (+2658) Created page with "'''Sacred''' is a joke esoteric language created by [[User:Conor O'Brien]] that is primarily a [[Brainf***]] derivative, but adds extra commands. It is entirely comprise of th..."
22:38:56 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should make a language called "Brainf***" so that all the pages with people afraid of cursing redirect to the wrong page
22:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm talking event-driven combinatory logic different)
22:45:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Omnifuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44612&oldid=40987 * Hppavilion1 * (+28) Reduced size of monolithic opening paragraph
22:46:05 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], i'm formally in favour of anything that prevents brainfuck derivatives
22:46:44 <hppavilion[1]> Should we create the ODABD (Organization in Defence Against Brainfuck Derivatives)
22:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i tried delegating my brainfuck derivative hating duties to taneb but the lazy bastard just slacked off
22:47:08 <hppavilion[1]> (I've actually made a BF derivative, but it's meant to be potentially useful to someone someday somehow)
22:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> (And a language inspired by a rather good brainfuck derivative called Arborealis)
22:49:18 <hppavilion[1]> (and a Markup Language that incorporates BF into it)
22:49:36 * hppavilion[1] sets aside a brick so Phantom_Hoover doesn't have to
22:51:16 <HackEgo> 1056) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time \ 1186) <Bike> learn you a unicycle for great good
22:51:26 <Taneb> I am a small step closer!
22:51:35 <Taneb> (I attended an introduction session at the kendo club)
22:52:45 <myname> that won't help you cycling!
22:53:31 <hppavilion[1]> I'm OK with BF derivatives if they add something original
22:53:42 <Taneb> The thing is I can do the two separately, myname
22:54:43 <myname> Taneb: it's all a matter of training
22:54:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: o hai. is this accurate twh http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/151005.html
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22:57:05 <boily> fizziello. did you inherit your $2.50?
22:57:24 <hppavilion[1]> What comes after # in the language suffix sequence?
22:58:15 <boily> # is a stack of two ++, therefore it should be three ++ on top of each other.
22:58:57 <boily> not sure about that.
22:59:22 <myname> we could use +- stacked
22:59:36 <fizzie> There's the ⁂ (U+2042 ASTERISM) but no PLUSTERISM.
22:59:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to make a BF derivative that could, potentially, be almost /useful/ to someone
23:00:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44613&oldid=44550 * Hppavilion1 * (+332) Added Goal (please don't brick me)
23:00:09 <boily> that'll do. it's a stack, there are three thingies, they have spokes.
23:01:28 * boily glares extremely suspiciously at hppavilion[1]
23:02:08 * boily oils, polishes and tunes his mapole for maximum celerity
23:02:56 <fizzie> Oh. While there's no PLUSTERISM, there is a TRIPLE PLUS -- it's just boring-looking: ⧻
23:04:08 <boily> fizzie: just you wait for some bored Haskeller to use it for arrows.
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23:07:26 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
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23:09:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44614&oldid=44611 * Conor O'Brien * (+3216)
23:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44615 * Hppavilion1 * (+1799) Started page (will finish later)
23:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44616&oldid=44614 * Conor O'Brien * (+654)
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23:21:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44617&oldid=44146 * Conor O'Brien * (+97) /* General languages */
23:26:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44618&oldid=44616 * Conor O'Brien * (+5) /* Interpreter */
23:29:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44619&oldid=44597 * Conor O'Brien * (+362)
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23:50:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44620&oldid=44606 * Conor O'Brien * (+13) /* Languages I have made */
23:50:22 <hppavilion[1]> So, I know BF derivatives are typically bad, etc. etc.
23:50:34 <hppavilion[1]> But what if a derivative includes something new and unique?
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23:52:04 <boily> I don't think there are any esolangs with an HCF instruction yet. you could always add that.
23:53:24 <hppavilion[1]> "The expression "catch fire" in this context is normally facetious, rather than literal - referring to a total loss of CPU functionality during the current session, not physical damage."
23:53:46 <boily> normally. there are recorded cases of fire ^^
23:57:33 <hppavilion[1]> So Functional Programming in a BF derivative. Is that supreme enough for it to be an acceptable derivative?
23:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Assuming that "Acceptable Derivatives" start, at maximum, at around where Arborealis is)
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