00:17:11 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:22:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: of course that's possible, if you can add an interpreter option to tell the IDE the information
00:23:26 <oerjan> well you could print it to stderr perhaps
00:24:36 <oerjan> well if you're using linuxy fork, you could also agree on another file descriptor number i guess
00:25:12 <oerjan> or you could use a named pipe
00:30:57 <izabera> aww that's the most boring alternative
00:31:05 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I suggested that. Check "Stream" on the wiki.
00:31:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Unfortunately, I'm a windows user, AND I prefer this to be cross-platform
00:31:52 <izabera> Phantom_Hoover: that's much better
00:31:57 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I would, but I haven't gotten around to dual booting yet.
00:32:04 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover on principle -----###
00:32:11 <hppavilion[1]> (I also do some light gaming, and games usually are made for windwos, so...)
00:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway your stderrin is questionable, you should be able to pipe it
00:32:34 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Oh right. You should add that to the wiki.
00:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean that semantically stderrin should be the stderr of the previous program in the pipe
00:34:12 <hppavilion[1]> cat invalidFile 3> (cat > error.log) or something along those lines
00:35:55 <izabera> can someone write a kernel with tube() instead of pipe() ?
00:36:42 <fizzie> Maybe be bidirectional?
00:36:55 <fizzie> Although I think at least Solaris' pipes are actually bidirectional.
00:36:57 <izabera> YES bidi pipes are so much needed
00:37:20 <fizzie> Solaris also has doors, which is another whimsically named IPC construct.
00:37:49 <izabera> you need a pen and enough ink to write at least 6 letters
00:37:50 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone here feel like /finally/ developing the EsOS?
00:39:41 <hppavilion[1]> Well, I feel like finally getting around to the EsOS. Anyone who feels like helping should speak up.
00:39:48 <izabera> is there any esoteric language that can be used by humans to speak?
00:39:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Optionally, I've created the channel #esoteric-os)
00:40:08 <fizzie> Huh, OpenBSD/FreeBSD (but not NetBSD) pipes are bidirectional too, according to their corresponding pipe(2) manpages.
00:41:36 <fizzie> "Confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle."
00:41:38 <izabera> i feel that being unambiguous is a /start/, nothing more than a basic requirement
00:42:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I meant unambiguous as being useful for being executed by a computer.
00:43:45 <hppavilion[1]> It would be like esolangs, but we would ascend to gods in the process.
00:44:25 <Sgeo__> Well. The movie was... odd, but it seemed more like it was making references to the books rather than being based on the books
00:44:34 <Sgeo__> Although I barely remember the books
00:44:47 <izabera> fizzie: the man page says it appeared in system V r4 which is from 1989... why doesn't linux have this?
00:45:01 <fizzie> It's never been part of POSIXy things.
00:45:10 <izabera> linux does a lot more than posix
00:46:58 <izabera> i don't see why it's not more used, looks like a useful interface
00:47:51 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: are you actually doing it?
00:47:52 <fizzie> izabera: I think because it wouldn't be at all portable anyway, and there's always socketpair when you do need it.
00:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> I know almmost nothing about OS development, and I was hoping for some help, but I can figure it out.
00:48:57 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:49:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm also reading the Rust OS development readme and joining #rust-osdev on irc.mozilla.org
00:49:35 <izabera> i think it'd be easier to first define which parts would be esoteric
00:50:54 <fizzie> There's certainly people running Forth on bare metal.
00:51:29 <fizzie> Does the Open Firmware stuff count?
00:52:30 <fizzie> colorForth I think is also a "Forth OS".
00:55:58 -!- zzo38 has joined.
01:02:22 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
01:06:13 <oerjan> my vague impression was that Forth was *designed* to be used on bare metal.
01:06:52 <oerjan> hm i, too, seem to be transitioning from emphasizing with _ to emphasizing with *. silly markdown!
01:07:31 <izabera> do you mean %silly% markdown
01:08:07 <izabera> it surely got your attention, didn't it?
01:08:12 <oerjan> SO markdown doesn't seem to recognize that.
01:10:12 <zzo38> Forth could be used at any level, I think.
01:10:57 <oerjan> izabera: i hear markdown has so many variants, there's probably one that makes that mean something
01:15:33 <FireFly> oerjan: ...markdown allows both, I think, so you could stick to _underscores_ if you prefer
01:15:53 <FireFly> although *asterisks* seem to be more common
01:17:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: true`: not found
01:17:25 <fizzie> Whoops, didn't think that one through.
01:20:34 <FireFly> Curiously zsh allows `` but chokes on $()
01:23:45 -!- variable has joined.
01:32:16 -!- bender| has joined.
01:35:35 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:39:36 -!- mauris_ has joined.
01:40:35 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:42:19 -!- bender| has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:52:14 <zzo38> When I try to print a PCL document to the "HP Laserjet P1102w" printer, the light just blink instead of printing; do you know what is wrong? (I tried to phone them, they couldn't help)
01:57:38 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero).
01:58:22 -!- jaboja has joined.
02:02:59 -!- |f`-`|f has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 40.0.2/20150812163655]).
02:13:21 -!- ^v has joined.
02:14:53 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
02:19:12 <\oren\> try taking the ink out and shaking it hard, then putting it back in
02:22:29 -!- bb010g has joined.
02:25:15 <zzo38> Do you know how ZjStream format is working? I found a document but it doesn't quite explain everything
02:54:34 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
03:03:46 <zzo38> Actually, apparently it supports "ZJS,URF,PCLm,PJL,ACL,HTTP". What is PCLm?
03:06:54 <zzo38> It seems that PCLm is a subset of PDF, and seems to have nothing to do with PCL. But I don't know what URF and ACL mean either.
03:11:56 -!- jaboja has joined.
03:14:50 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
03:19:49 <\oren\> it is a huge pain in the ass
03:20:15 <hppavilion[1]> And I might have to set up more than one in my lifetime
03:20:37 <\oren\> usually you have to compile the compiler from source to make it work
03:21:02 <hppavilion[1]> Do I have to get all the stuff from http://wiki.osdev.org/GCC_Cross-Compiler#Downloading_the_Source_Code by hand, or can I just get the binutils stuff and have it come with?
03:22:48 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to build https://github.com/thepowersgang/rust-barebones-kernel as practice and it says I need a cross-compiling binutils for i586-elf or x86_64-elf
03:23:35 <\oren\> tht doesn't make sense
03:23:51 <\oren\> are you not ON either of those?
03:24:17 <\oren\> what OS and cpu do you have?
03:27:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I'm running Windows 10 on... not sure what the cpu is, to tell the truth. Or even what cpu names sound like. The core is an i5 I think.
03:28:29 <\oren\> so the issue is you need an EXE that can create ELF's. got it
03:28:53 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It says I need A recent (1.0 nightly) build of rustc, A suitable cross-compiling copy of binutils (i586-elf or x86_64-elf), and A copy of the libcore source in .../libcore (synlink will do), so I'm getting those.
03:29:32 -!- lleu has quit (Quit: That's what she said).
03:29:45 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The windows 10 is because I'm lazy and my parents raised me on windows.
03:30:08 <zgrep> Evil parents. Pure, windows infused evil.
03:30:46 <\oren\> I grew up on Red Hat linux dual boot with Win98
03:32:38 -!- adu has joined.
03:32:46 <\oren\> I first learned to program with Perl and Visual Basic
03:32:52 <hppavilion[1]> So I did git clone git://sourceware.org/git/binutils-gdb.git. Am I on the right track, or am I doing something entirely wrong?
03:33:02 <adu> \oren\: I'm feel so bad for you
03:33:19 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's a "bats"?
03:33:38 <\oren\> basically window's anemic version of a shell script
03:33:40 <adu> oh, I've never used Windows
03:33:55 <adu> I grew up on Mac and Linux
03:34:19 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I've been meaning to get a linux distribution running on here (dual-boot), but I'm too lazy. I'll do it someday.
03:34:29 <\oren\> for windows automation, .bat's are ok, but I prefer to write a little VB program
03:34:31 <zgrep> Make that day today!
03:34:49 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I used to dual-boot and triple-boot back in the day, but now I just use VMs
03:34:55 <\oren\> why dual boot when you can get a server in the cloud
03:35:04 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Not even a usb?
03:35:16 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Not one big enough. Don't think there are any around here.
03:35:30 <zgrep> A small distro isn't *that* big...
03:35:37 <zgrep> ...unless it's a really tiny flash drive.
03:35:51 <\oren\> do you have a 2GB or larger one
03:36:01 <hppavilion[1]> I used to work with a guy who had dreams of running a company. We were discussing what computers he was going to give employees. He wanted to put all the programmers on Windows. I went to a lot of effort to explain to him he was being a fucking moron. I failed.
03:36:10 <\oren\> really 1GB should be enough
03:36:28 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: What's the maximum you know of...
03:37:13 <zgrep> Plug it in, it should say it somewhere.
03:38:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: well, it's irrelevant if he was being a moron, you should have showed him than unix programmers are 2571% more productive than windows programmers
03:38:42 <\oren\> but like I said you can get a cloud server. in particular, you can use AWS's free tier to get a free linux box to do stuff on
03:39:05 <zgrep> adu: Nice statistic.
03:39:34 <adu> zgrep: did you know that 76.3% of statistics are invented on the spot?
03:39:58 <\oren\> https://aws.amazon.com/free/ <-- a free linux box for one whole year
03:40:12 <zgrep> adu: It seems to have risen from last year's 73.9%.
03:41:19 <adu> I wonder what the standard deviation of that is
03:45:39 <hppavilion[1]> I don't feel like downloading another many-gigabyte file.
03:46:04 <adu> I prefer Debian over Ubuntu
03:46:10 <\oren\> eh. actually if you don't mind windows 10, ubuntu will be fine for you
03:46:41 <adu> granted, VirtualBox supports Ubuntu out-of-the-box, but I recently figured out how to install VBox additions on Debian, so I'm super-happy now
03:47:19 <adu> \oren\: I've never used Windows 10
03:48:15 <\oren\> you should hope never to encounter it. Win8 and win10 are indescribable horrors of UI design
03:48:59 <adu> well, whenever I encounter Windows at work, I usually find a way to get my employer to buy a mac, or let me install Linux instead
03:49:36 <zzo38> I did use a computer with Win8 once; it is not much difficulty to use, all the WIN+R and ALT+F4 and ALT+TAB and cmd.exe and so on seem working same as in older versions of Windows
03:49:41 <\oren\> I use a macbook pro at work, but I connected a proper keyboard and a three button mouse mouse
03:50:09 <\oren\> and a external monitor too
03:50:20 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's bathroom tiles?
03:50:26 <\oren\> eh. Win10 still LOOKS terible
03:50:54 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe I just switched it to something that looks bad xD
03:50:55 <\oren\> adu: I see you are living in blissful ignorance of the horrific tiles.
03:51:36 <hppavilion[1]> How much space should I make for ubuntu? It's a ~800 gb drive
03:52:03 <adu> hppavilion[1]: at least 20G
03:52:12 <zzo38> Although the main menu is clearly different, the old keyboard commands are still working, and cmd.exe is still working, so it doesn't seem much of a problem to figure out.
03:52:14 <\oren\> they are rectangular tiles with nothing that looks in any way familiar to eye, scattered in colors across a screen that has neither taskbar nor separate windows
03:52:16 -!- bender| has joined.
03:52:22 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I usually go halvsies
03:53:16 <adu> \oren\: oh, I thought that was called "Metro" which when I first read about it, thought it was the trains in the DC area
03:53:24 <zzo38> But my own computer is now OEM Ubuntu with 160 GB hard drive, although I removed the default window manager and desktop environment and installed i3-wm instead.
03:54:13 <adu> hppavilion[1]: you can customize everything
03:54:29 <hppavilion[1]> My mind has been blown. Unfortunately, they don't have IRC in hell, so...
03:54:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has left ("Fear Me").
03:54:51 <adu> you can choose: window manager, themes, panels, widgets, backgrounds, colors
03:54:58 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
03:55:08 <adu> the only thing you can't choose is the widget toolkit, the app chooses that
03:55:48 <adu> so if you have a Gtk app, it uses Gtk, forever!
03:55:57 <adu> if you have a Qt app, then it will always use Qt
03:56:36 <zzo38> I just went into aptitude and told it to install i3-wm and uninstall the other stuff, and then when I started X next time, it just worked; I did not need to do anything else. However, I did later configure it so that the setting and so on are changed, although it worked even without that.
03:57:02 <\oren\> I generally use either LXDE or XFCE
03:57:10 <adu> hppavilion[1]: you can choose: window manager, themes, panels, widgets, backgrounds, colors
03:57:41 <\oren\> however, right now I'm using Windows 7
03:58:05 <zzo38> adu: Yes, I know, I like the Athena widgets but Firefox is not using them
03:58:22 <\oren\> i.e. the last windows before Microsoft dove into satan's mouth
03:58:29 <adu> Firefox has it's own themes
03:59:03 <adu> I think because it's toolkit is XUL
03:59:07 <zzo38> Firefox is using XUL, I think
03:59:23 <\oren\> there is not toolkit. there is only XUL
03:59:30 <adu> it's not really a toolkit, but it plays a similar role
03:59:49 <zzo38> But is there the way to code XUL overlays or whatever, in order to change how scrollbars act and so on?
04:00:04 <zzo38> So that it can be made to work like Athena scrollbars.
04:00:18 <adu> definitely
04:00:31 <adu> but most themes do boring stuff like change the background :P
04:01:26 <hppavilion[1]> I should probably back things up before I do this xD
04:02:35 <zzo38> With about:config, Classic Theme Restorer, userChrome.css, and userChrome.js, you can do a lot more than just changing the background; I have done many thing
04:02:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: Cygwin or MinGW
04:03:20 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, although I think not using built-in software. I have used 7-Zip. First you create the .tar by something like "7z a file.tar @ziplist" or whatever, and then "7z a file.tar.gz file.tar" I think.
04:03:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: there's probably a simpler way with like WinTar or 7-Zip or something
04:03:56 <zzo38> I know 7-Zip supports those formats, although I have not used it to create .tar.gz, only to open them.
04:05:39 <zzo38> I have created .tar.gz only on Linux systems, where the command is: tar c `cat ziplist` | gzip
04:05:53 <zzo38> And then to extract it the command is: zcat | tar x
04:06:42 <adu> zzo38: I usually do $(tar -czf ...) to create and $(tar -xzf ...) to extract
04:08:28 <adu> hppavilion[1]: but I think that requires that you have libz installed, which requires a decent environment, which requires either Cygwin or MinGW
04:08:57 <zzo38> GNU tar supports a lot of options, although I only ever use the "c", "t", and "x" options; most of the others seem worthless to me.
04:09:24 <hppavilion[1]> "To defuse the bomb, please enter a valid tar command on your first try"
04:12:08 <zzo38> To me, the pipes are the way it should be done; all of program should be acting as a filter, and then each program has a different function, such as one for archive and one for compression. Many programs don't do that but some do, including the ones I wrote (such as "amigamml" and "playmod").
04:12:57 <adu> zzo38: agreed, but it's so inconsistent that way
04:14:18 <adu> zzo38: because then you have to know the command line options for gzip, bzip2, xzip, 7z, etc, or you can just use a single extra letter with tar, much simpler imho
04:15:15 <zzo38> Well, maybe. Although the default settings for gzip and zcat and tar seem working well enough?
04:15:43 <adu> $(tar xzf ...) also works, but it has the disadvantage of being compliant to tar history, but violates POSIX's own parameter guidelines
04:18:32 <zzo38> My program "amigamml" does not even support any command-line options; argc/argv are ignored. The output of amigamml is accepted as the input of playmod and the output of playmod is accepted as the input of aplay or sox so you can easily join them together in this way!
04:20:37 <zzo38> I have seen many different command-lines used with tar, although I would have omitted the "z" and "f" options if I had designed it by myself.
04:29:07 <zzo38> It is a program to make .MOD and .XM music files
04:29:31 <zzo38> Many other programs exist, but I didn't find any of the others very good so I made up my own
04:36:47 <\oren\> hmmm what characters should I add to my font next?
04:38:46 -!- Wright has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
05:00:04 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
05:03:49 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:18:27 <b_jonas> \oren\: still saying you should add rotated/mirrored variant glyphs for those punctuation characters that require it
05:27:36 -!- JesseH has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
05:44:58 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
05:58:12 <HackEgo> danddreclist 69: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
06:02:01 -!- Drone_swarm has joined.
06:02:05 -!- Drone_swarm has quit (Client Quit).
06:02:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I mean the minimum stuff the site needs to support -_-
06:29:20 <kallisti> http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/rms_katana.jpg
06:46:35 <\oren\> b_jonas: there, vertical things!
06:50:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
06:52:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
06:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if Randall Munroe has ever considered doing a long, continuitous storyline.
07:19:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um are you not familiar with Time
07:44:33 -!- hjulle has joined.
08:01:36 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
08:04:20 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
08:05:46 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
08:16:21 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
08:19:16 -!- gamemanj has joined.
08:31:22 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
08:55:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Radixal!!!!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44835&oldid=43920 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Computational class */ link
08:57:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44836&oldid=44613 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Goal */ case
09:00:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Introduction to Esolang Design]] to [[Introduction to esolang design]]: The case is wrong, WRONG
09:12:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to esolang design]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44838&oldid=44837 * Oerjan * (+5) Less caps, more links
09:17:31 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
09:32:06 -!- FreeFull has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
09:34:53 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 268 seconds).
09:47:23 -!- FreeFull has joined.
09:47:47 -!- FreeFull has changed nick to Guest93383.
09:50:21 -!- mauris_ has joined.
09:56:25 -!- TieSoul has joined.
10:01:14 -!- TieSoul has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
10:15:24 -!- TieSoul has joined.
10:26:04 -!- gniourf has quit (Quit: Leaving).
10:28:44 -!- gniourf has joined.
10:32:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44839&oldid=44448 * Oerjan * (-12) links, grm, case
10:39:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44840&oldid=44770 * Oerjan * (+0) order
10:40:49 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
11:28:35 -!- bender| has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
11:29:07 -!- bender| has joined.
11:29:07 -!- bender| has quit (Changing host).
11:29:07 -!- bender| has joined.
11:34:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
11:36:42 -!- zgrep has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
11:39:37 -!- zgrep has joined.
11:49:54 -!- kallisti has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
11:52:23 -!- kallisti has joined.
11:59:04 -!- Patashu has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
12:03:46 -!- Guest93383 has quit (Changing host).
12:03:46 -!- Guest93383 has joined.
12:03:56 -!- Guest93383 has changed nick to FreeFull.
12:22:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMBF]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44841 * SuperJedi224 * (+38) Redirected page to [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]]
12:28:52 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
12:29:35 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: BRB).
12:29:57 -!- FreeFull has joined.
13:04:41 <int-e> http://www.lispcast.com/img/typing.png is cute
13:05:45 <int-e> is there a scheme or lisp with hindley-milner typing?
13:06:57 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
13:19:04 -!- boily has joined.
13:32:18 <Taneb> int-e: typed racket maybe?
13:47:59 -!- tromp_ has quit.
13:52:18 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
13:52:22 -!- tromp_ has joined.
13:53:07 <int-e> Taneb: looks good, thanks
13:53:55 -!- rdococ has joined.
13:54:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44842&oldid=41125 * LegionMammal978 * (-10) minor fixes
13:54:40 -!- lleu has joined.
14:19:41 -!- rdococ has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
14:38:38 <zemhill> david_werecat.atom: points -2.76, score 17.72, rank 28/47 (+11)
14:52:56 -!- rdococ has joined.
14:57:49 -!- alyyy has joined.
14:59:08 <alyyy> hey peeps. is there a way I can download the entire esolang wiki? like a site backup?
15:07:04 -!- Frooxius has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*).
15:15:35 -!- Frooxius has joined.
15:16:00 -!- Lyka has joined.
15:16:04 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200005B%20Commands.pdf
15:16:22 <Lyka> make any sense?
15:18:56 -!- mauris_ has changed nick to mauris.
15:21:17 -!- Wright has joined.
15:21:40 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
15:26:57 -!- FreeFull has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
15:28:46 -!- FreeFull has joined.
15:38:01 -!- JesseH has joined.
15:43:24 -!- FreeFull has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
15:45:48 -!- FreeFull has joined.
15:52:47 <\oren\> is there a Lisp with Forth-style untyping?
15:57:13 <bender|> how do you set the values of a[1] and a[2]?
15:57:30 <bender|> If I understand you correctly, a[1-3] are kind of like registers, right?
15:58:45 <Lyka> um...they are read from file
15:59:13 <bender|> Oh, I'm sorry, can I have some background on this?
15:59:42 <Lyka> some background: i asked here by mistake
16:00:55 <\oren\> OH god damn it mom, it is your "macbook air" not your "baby computer". it did not come from two imacs fucking.
16:01:50 <\oren\> tech support for family members is irritating. hi quintopia
16:01:56 <quintopia> i see david_werecat wants to get back in the game
16:06:22 <FreeFull> \oren\: No, she's saying it's meant for babies
16:07:59 <\oren\> hmm... no, it would have to be waterproof and bale to be thrown repeatedly across the room for that
16:08:51 <int-e> . o O ( quintopia is taking #esoteric customs to ##math? )
16:08:57 <\oren\> I once threw my gameboy into the Pacific Ocean and retrieved it, it still worked
16:09:25 <quintopia> ive taken them everywhere for people i like
16:10:04 <int-e> astonishingly often, mathematics.
16:10:16 <int-e> (highschool level, mostly)
16:10:40 <\oren\> I see. my dad teaches that
16:11:04 <\oren\> (he teaches the remdial calculus for people who didn't take it in high school)
16:11:50 <\oren\> It's crazy how many people don't take calculus in high school and then choose a major that needs calculus
16:11:52 <int-e> . o O ( rem-dial looks too much like a real thing )
16:12:04 -!- Lyka has left.
16:13:20 <int-e> Hmm, IIRC my comp sci curriculum was virtually free of calculus...
16:13:56 <Taneb> int-e, mine definitely is
16:14:09 <\oren\> I took advanced calculus and topology and number theory just beacasue I thought I'd do well in them, they weren't required
16:14:09 <int-e> (there was linear algebra, some combinatorics, abstract algebra, logic, a bit of number theory...)
16:14:25 <Taneb> A lot of statistics in mine
16:14:59 <\oren\> yah. statistics sometimes turns into calculus though
16:15:36 <int-e> Hmm I'm not sure how the machine learning people dealt with the lack of calculus.
16:15:45 <Taneb> There's some "knowing differential calculus kind of helps" in the optimization module I'm doing now, but that's in maths, not CS
16:17:13 <\oren\> in my machine learning course they gave you the integrals you needed
16:17:35 <\oren\> (in one case the answer sheet had it wrong, however)
16:17:38 <quintopia> once i got more into theoretical cs in my masters, calculus was marginally more useful
16:18:06 <quintopia> (calc was required for undergrad, but not diffeq. i still dont know diffeq)
16:18:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[3var]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44843&oldid=44842 * LegionMammal978 * (-1) /* Language Overview */
16:20:14 <\oren\> anyway it's hard to get anywhere with stats on continuous distributions without using the fact that a distribution is something you integrate to get a value
16:21:28 <\oren\> This is something I had to expain recently to my best friend who is taking statistical mechanics
16:23:09 <\oren\> a distribution on x is a function f(x) such that f(x) is between 0 and 1 and if you integrate it over all x you get 1. to get the average of any expression of x like g(x) you integrate g(x)f(x)
16:27:13 <\oren\> this is apparently not covered in the basic stats course. idiots
16:27:32 <\oren\> luckily i took advanced stats
16:45:27 -!- qwertyo has joined.
16:53:03 -!- jaboja has joined.
16:56:42 <\oren\> hmm ︻ looks like a mouth open in horror
16:56:58 <\oren\> or maybe just the way I drew it
17:03:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:14:38 <zzo38> I thought of some idea of Magic: the Gathering card: Whenever ~ would be destroyed (whether by a state-based effect or otherwise) while there are any -1/-1 counters on it, instead remove a -1/-1 counter from ~ (do not remove any marked damage).
17:21:42 <shachaf> Taneb: It's replaced with the name of the card.
17:30:08 -!- bender| has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:48:47 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92-rdmsoft [XULRunner 35.0.1/20150122214805]).
17:50:40 <b_jonas> \oren\: do you have the mirrored parenthesis and question mark too?
17:50:59 <b_jonas> though probably that's less important because you won't be writing arabic with this font
17:51:43 -!- alyyy has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:52:15 <b_jonas> \oren\: vertical quotation marks. nice.
17:52:37 <b_jonas> \oren\: wait, isn't there a vertical version of the Chinese comma and period too, used in some language?
17:53:02 <b_jonas> \oren\: and where's the vertical kana long vowel mark?
17:53:52 <b_jonas> \oren\: definitely do the vertical long vowel mark. you can't write vertical text without that.
17:56:57 <\oren\> Oh. Yeah I'll add vertical period and comma. Also I'm adding the Deseret and Shavian alphabets
17:59:58 <\oren\> I'm taking a short break from adding nothing but kanji
18:00:00 <b_jonas> \oren\: apparently there are multiple different placements of the full stop in vertical writing, for some of mainland Chinese, Taiwan Chinese, Japanese. Some of these may coincide with the horizontal writing comma.
18:00:21 <b_jonas> But the vertical long vowel mark is the most important, I think
18:00:33 -!- ^v has joined.
18:00:34 <b_jonas> because you often see it in advertizments
18:01:40 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
18:02:48 <\oren\> I should also add the ideographic description characters
18:02:57 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, it's rare but easy to draw, so add the " " (fullwidth space, for Chinese script)
18:09:38 <Taneb> Why is that called ord?
18:10:04 <myname> because asc is what everbody would've guessed?
18:10:06 <b_jonas> Taneb: I think it's a tradition, that's what it's called in pascal too. the alternative is ASC which is horribl
18:10:17 <b_jonas> because Char isn't necessarily an ascii character
18:10:47 <b_jonas> \oren\: the vertical ellipsis ⋮ , I think it should go down below the descender, spread out more
18:11:04 <b_jonas> \oren\: that character is used to indicate more rows in a table or matrix for example
18:12:40 <b_jonas> \oren\: and your ⟦ look wrong. it should be a double vertical line with just a single horizontal line, which in a proportional font looks similar to two overlapping [ horizontally offset from each other
18:12:51 <b_jonas> \oren\: it's used in some maths or compsci writing as a delimiter
18:13:48 <newsham> is remedial calculus anything like remedial differential geometry?
18:18:03 <\oren\> I'm not sure how similar. I've never taken differentiol geometry, and I've only ever graded, not taken, remedial calculus
18:18:28 <\oren\> (one year my dad's TA's were more incompetent than usual)
18:20:41 <\oren\> so I got roped in to help grade 150 or so exams
18:21:50 <\oren\> b_jonas: got it. I'll adjust those characters
18:25:35 <\oren\> seriously though, at York University sometimes people don't get their grades back until a few months into the next term
18:27:29 <fizzie> At my old university, there was technically a guaranteed 30-day SLA in getting exam grades.
18:27:33 <fizzie> But it was broken quite often.
18:28:11 <Taneb> \oren\, York University?
18:28:24 <Taneb> Would you believe I'm at a university with an almost identical name?
18:28:29 <Taneb> (University of York)
18:30:50 <\oren\> Heh. my dad went to a confusing conference there once
18:31:16 <Taneb> There's someone in the CS department here who is a professor here and also at York University
18:38:40 -!- evalj has joined.
18:44:20 <b_jonas> questino, in http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?International+Radiotelephony+Spelling+Alphabet for the 156 byte post-mortem leading solution of teebee(llhuii), why is -ray double-quoted? would it break something later if it wasn't quoted?
18:44:30 <b_jonas> this is perl, so -ray evaluates to "-ray" just fine
18:45:10 <b_jonas> though it might not actually be shorter because the omeo uses the letter m that's already there
18:45:56 <b_jonas> but that would let the first line end in omeo,
18:46:31 <b_jonas> then the next line would start with probably mebec followed by something
18:47:47 <b_jonas> I should try to see if I can shorten it this way, but since it's post-mortem, feel free to do it faster.
18:52:21 <b_jonas> ... not that I haven't had my share of pointlessly losing a character in a golf for quoting something that needn't be quoted
19:03:06 <izabera> i'm trying to complete a codeeval challenge in bash but it's timing out
19:03:36 <izabera> the challenge is this https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/42/
19:03:46 <izabera> and this is my code http://arin.ga/yeBjHx/raw
19:03:57 <izabera> is the algorithm terribly inefficient?
19:05:31 <b_jonas> izabera: or you have a bug?
19:11:44 <izabera> can you find any example that produces an incorrect result? :\
19:14:33 <tswett> I think I've been working on this programming language of mine for... several weeks now?
19:14:49 <tswett> It's finally at the point where you can define some stuff.
19:14:53 <tswett> For example, the number three:
19:15:00 <tswett> three = succ (succ (succ zero))
19:15:08 <tswett> And an add-two function:
19:15:14 <tswett> add_two x = succ (succ x)
19:15:31 <tswett> And for something super fancy, here's something that takes two numbers and returns the first one, two plus the second, and three plus the first:
19:15:35 <izabera> tswett: is it called peano? :P
19:15:49 <tswett> fancy (x,y) = (x, succ (succ y), succ (succ (succ x)))
19:16:07 <tswett> izabera: sump'm like that.
19:17:46 <tswett> `swedish fancy (x,y) = (x, succ (succ y), succ (succ (succ x)))
19:17:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swedish: not found
19:18:52 <tswett> Where did the swedifier go?
19:19:18 <tswett> Maybe it conflicts with the autowelcomer.
19:19:27 <tswett> `swedish fancy (x,y) = (x, succ (succ y), succ (succ (succ x)))
19:19:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swedish: not found
19:22:45 <tswett> So now I'm working on making it so you can define addition.
19:29:55 -!- rdococ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
19:30:27 -!- rdococ has joined.
19:31:11 <tswett> Hey everyone. I want to buy something from someone over the Internet. She only takes PayPal for payment; I don't feel keen on getting a PayPal account.
19:33:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
19:33:24 -!- boily has quit (Quit: INDUCTION CHICKEN).
19:39:20 <zemhill> david_werecat.lirtle: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-15)
19:39:40 <zemhill> david_werecat.xurtle: points 0.33, score 20.56, rank 16/47
19:40:35 <myname> as a german, i am okay with it
19:41:22 <myname> every line should be a single word
19:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to have arranged my taskbar by both use and, secondarily, by complexness of the program
19:48:49 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yep, pretty much. How would it work though...
19:49:05 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps entire objects could be encoded into something resembling a name?
19:49:17 <hppavilion[1]> Or you could create a new object by modifying an old one?
19:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> dog_with_speech would create the "Magical talking dog" object/class
19:51:33 <rdococ> I imagine something like english
19:51:57 <rdococ> you would use a noun and then adjectives to characterize the object
19:52:24 <rdococ> e.g. talking orange, or fat chicken
19:54:39 <rdococ> I want it to be like real english
19:55:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, but the idea was to base it on German.
19:55:56 <myname> you could say "talk of the chicken"
19:58:00 <rdococ> yay you inspired its creation
19:58:37 <rdococ> I had the idea of negative files that removed data
19:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't so much remove data as replace data though in this case
20:01:50 <rdococ> a programming language that is very very very high level
20:02:12 <myname> do what i want with this graph
20:03:13 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
20:03:16 <tswett> myname: I don't have to what?
20:04:23 <rdococ> maybe a programming language with only a single instruction that has no parameters
20:05:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I've thought of that. If it's TC and lacks parentheses, you can encode any program as a number of instructions
20:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> If it does have parentheses, you're thinking about iota
20:06:29 <rdococ> I already kind of thought of it though
20:07:58 <hppavilion[1]> I hate that all the instructions for getting a GCC cross-compiler (at least on OSDev.org) are targetted solely at linux users
20:08:13 <hppavilion[1]> They have a few sections on what to do on windows, but nothing for the important parts
20:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to build https://github.com/thepowersgang/rust-barebones-kernel on windows 10, but the instructions are exclusively for *nix
20:12:53 <rdococ> trying to think of new esoteric languages is boring
20:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to install Ubuntu later today, but I can't right now because I haven't backed up my drive yet
20:13:33 <rdococ> especially when my brain compels me to make user friendly languages
20:15:07 <myname> it's not about being user unfriendly, it's all about the concept
20:16:34 <myname> i like the idea someone mentioned here a while ago
20:17:05 <myname> making a language that can solve all the standard problems
20:17:32 <myname> or accessing an array index
20:18:10 <myname> fibonacci, truth machine, ...
20:18:23 <rdococ> imagine a programming language where the interpreters are people
20:18:23 <hppavilion[1]> I think implementing HQ9 should be a standard problem
20:18:32 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, you want to be able to actually code in it
20:18:48 <rdococ> you'd be able to talk with the interpreter
20:18:48 <hppavilion[1]> Well if you can code into it, addition is possible, if in a roundabout way
20:19:17 <myname> hppavilion[1]: the question is: in what way?
20:20:07 <myname> personally, i wouldn't count that as standard problem
20:20:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But if you can actually code in it, there'll be a way to do it
20:20:53 <myname> but the question isn how?
20:21:27 <myname> what problems do you need to use in what way to actually add numbers
20:21:59 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: like set theory but for lists?
20:22:05 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to make a series where I incrementally develop a Social Network from scratch
20:23:05 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: would it admit infinite lists, or only finite ones?
20:23:58 <rdococ> lists are just ordered tuplets right?
20:24:16 <rdococ> unless you mean unordered lsits
20:25:00 <tswett> Man, this neural net of mine is generating some nice words.
20:25:24 <rdococ> that just gave me a dirty idea
20:25:51 <rdococ> a language that has something to do with - well - stuff
20:26:29 <tswett> You know. I didn't like his butt, so I debutted him.
20:27:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello, world!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44844&oldid=42075 * 92.204.69.55 * (-13) updated link to the Hello World Collection
20:27:39 <HackEgo> alkueilla puuhallesi liutuvakolmeija hupeestäni ahnaani hidastanillanta kaunoillä johdattamme röyhimoillemistämänä pikarkaloksi koteksin hiippumiinnostoimi saavana jumistä tuvillammaltamini kilpaamintoivasta ruhoiduttavilta kimeävin hytkyväksetuimiänne vuoltaksenne
20:28:09 <tswett> Whelp, I can't tell you for sure that any one of those is not a Finnish word.
20:28:17 <tswett> Though "kaunoillä" seems pretty unlikely.
20:28:33 <HackEgo> exológico stvesta fermo lauro potz embus ethyricos hete chouia cnuidad ento fricas var trís queseabanció tronl dommiquema raditá pallc íntique
20:28:37 <fizzie> Yes, it brakes the vowel harmony rules pretty badly.
20:28:42 <tswett> "stvesta" is definitely not a Spanish word.
20:29:11 <HackEgo> oflor bonnanzavit alcoteur imhospecult gouvresi beek conses illa surdiro ron cuttori annem supermin mode nœgustrando celly neautdr scavandi pures rationnné
20:29:13 <fizzie> "hupeestäni", "kaunoillä", "jumistä" are all arguably invalid because of that.
20:29:14 <tswett> I find the Spanish words much less convincing than the Finnish words.
20:29:34 <tswett> To my eyes, "saavana" is a pretty good one.
20:29:49 <fizzie> "puuhallesi", "ahnaani" and "saavana" at least are perfectly normal words.
20:29:57 <rdococ> the french words look even less convincing to me... but it might just be my bad understanding of french
20:30:16 <tswett> I think "íntique" seems like a pretty interesting Spanish word. Kind of strange, but also completely plausible.
20:30:55 <tswett> How about some Swedish Chef?
20:31:13 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
20:31:39 <tswett> `words --canadian-english-insane 20
20:31:41 <HackEgo> revet flandly coning jointo sapperpur doon periardial counda equela eccescrify undedusan poweremend pac ackstomycosmoi prection comotier theospaioranne unsligh tealonegalization arca
20:31:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Phone]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44845 * Rdococ * (+228) Small article as usual *yawn*
20:31:59 <fizzie> You probably can unsligh someone.
20:32:22 <fizzie> Or I guess it would be 'unslight'.
20:33:23 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: well, both would be possible. I think admitting infinite lists would make the theory significantly more interesting.
20:33:38 <hppavilion[1]> Is there some other DS we could do weird things about?
20:33:46 <tswett> Remind me what a DS is?
20:34:15 <fizzie> I have a Nintendo Data Structure Lite somewhere.
20:34:19 <tswett> A function is just a key–value map that's permitted to have infinitely many pairs.
20:34:53 <tswett> So hey, let's come up with some axioms!
20:35:09 <tswett> There's a predicate is_empty.
20:35:19 <tswett> There's exactly one list x such that is_empty(x).
20:35:50 <tswett> There's also a predicate is_head(x,y) and is_tail(x,y).
20:36:40 <tswett> Lemme phrase these next couple axioms a little more loosely.
20:36:56 <tswett> The empty list has no head and no tail. Every other list has exactly one head and exactly one tail.
20:37:08 <tswett> Further more, given lists x and y, there's exactly one list whose head is x and whose tail is y.
20:37:25 <rdococ> A basic data structure is a just a set of keys
20:38:04 <int-e> lock-oriented programming
20:38:20 <rdococ> A basic data structure is a just a set of keys from which maps can be created mapping each key to a value, called objects
20:38:43 <int-e> (keys should be mapped to keyholes)
20:39:02 <tswett> int-e: I was hoping that you meant mutex-oriented programming.
20:39:08 <rdococ> An object is a map that maps the elements in a data structure
20:39:11 <tswett> Al dente is based on a model of concurrency!
20:40:50 <tswett> It's a pretty unusual programming language.
20:40:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44846 * Hppavilion1 * (+287) Created Page (will fill out when we've finished inventing it)
20:41:03 <tswett> Like, with most programming languages, nothing really happens except what you specify.
20:41:18 <tswett> Like, in Python, if you declare a boolean variable, the value of that variable isn't going to spontaneously change.
20:41:22 <tswett> Al Dente isn't like that at all.
20:42:04 <tswett> In Al Dente, everything just happens spontaneously, and your program restricts the manner in which it can happen.
20:42:45 <int-e> Hmm, it lacks pasta-eating philosophers
20:43:05 <rdococ> A data structure is just a set of keys and functions.
20:43:34 <tswett> A data structure is just data satisfying a given structure.
20:43:44 <fizzie> int-e: Who deadlock obtaining their forks?
20:44:08 <rdococ> My boredom satisfies x > n for any n in R.
20:44:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44847&oldid=44846 * Hppavilion1 * (+244) Primitives
20:45:18 <int-e> fizzie: yeah, those
20:48:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44848&oldid=44847 * Hppavilion1 * (+258) Other predicates
20:48:32 <hppavilion[1]> For some reason, I automatically mark all my edits as minor.
20:49:33 <rdococ> stupid hackego not giving me a link to the article itself
20:49:49 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Hppavilion1/List_Theory
20:50:15 <int-e> rdococ: you can use the link, then click on the "Page" "tab"?
20:50:57 <rdococ> uh oh the yays are contagious YAY
20:51:16 <int-e> which is bad UI design: clicking on the "active" tab goes to a different page than the active one...
20:51:40 <tswett> A combination of antics. Attorney.
20:51:59 <rdococ> uh oh, my use of the word delicion has spread
20:52:11 <tswett> I'm pretty sure "contagions" is in fact a real word.
20:52:17 <tswett> Correctly spelled, even.
20:52:28 <tswett> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/contagions
20:52:38 <rdococ> oh wait... that's real
20:52:49 <int-e> rdococ: I think you made uo "delicions", but got lucky with "infections"
20:53:29 <int-e> Hmm, "uo"... why do keyboards come with adjacent keys... this just invites spelling errors like that one.
20:54:14 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: depends; there are a lot of set theories. ZFC is the most popular one.
20:54:24 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zermelo%E2%80%93Fraenkel_set_theory
20:55:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44849&oldid=44848 * Hppavilion1 * (+175) Axiom #1
20:55:05 <tswett> Let the music carry you. Maybe I will follow you forever.
20:55:17 <tswett> There's nowhere else I'd rather be.
20:55:26 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: well, I gave you a few above.
20:56:07 <tswett> I think if you just add an unfolding axiom, you'll be pretty good.
20:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> I listed the predicates empty, is_head, and is_tail. I also discussed the head and tail of the empty list
20:56:47 <tswett> Wait, lemme think how this is gonna work.
20:56:51 <tswett> Okay, maybe two things.
20:57:28 <tswett> First, say that if you have a function f from a list to maybe-a-list, as well as a list x, then there's a list that goes like [x, f(x), f(f(x)), f(f(f(x))), ...], stopping once f decides to return not-a-list.
20:57:57 <tswett> You know what, that one's probably sufficient. I don't think you'd need the second one.
20:58:03 <tswett> But I'll tell you what the second one is anyway.
20:58:21 <rdococ> a list is just a key-value map with one to one correspondence and numerical keys
20:58:51 <tswett> No, actually, the second one is bogus.
20:59:03 <zemhill> david_werecat.atom: points -2.76, score 17.68, rank 30/47 (+17)
20:59:28 <tswett> Now, you'll also want to have a definition of what a finite list is.
20:59:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44850&oldid=44849 * Hppavilion1 * (+328) Added two more axioms
20:59:57 <tswett> I think you can pretty much define that using induction.
21:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'll try to figure this out myself from here on out
21:00:42 <int-e> what if f never returns not-a-list...
21:00:46 <fizzie> That +17 looks a bit suspicious.
21:00:55 <tswett> The empty list is finite. If the tail of a list is finite, then the list is finite. If a property holds for the empty list, and the property holds for a list whenever it holds for the list's tail, then the property holds for every finite list.
21:00:56 -!- variable has joined.
21:00:59 <tswett> int-e: then the list goes on forever.
21:01:08 <tswett> One more thing you might want to add. A well-foundedness axiom.
21:01:23 <tswett> I think this axiom will do the trick perfectly well—I'm about 60% sure.
21:02:05 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:05 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:06 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:06 <tswett> For every list, the list [x, head(x), head(head(x)), ...] (defined using that "unfolding axiom") is finite.
21:02:06 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:06 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:08 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:10 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:13 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:47 <int-e> tswett: hmm, I'd rather have an inductively defined list type (which means, finite lists only) and get a nice induction principle in return
21:03:11 <tswett> But I asserted that a theory admitting infinite lists would probably be more interesting.
21:03:12 <\oren\> i'm trying to copypaste the deseret and shavian alphabets but it doesnt work!
21:03:12 <int-e> (rather than a coinduction principle... from what I've seen those tend to be quite unwieldy)
21:03:24 <\oren\> ................................
21:04:30 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
21:04:47 -!- ^v has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
21:05:21 <tswett> "housebreed", "pumperwoman", "exaggedistic"
21:05:27 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call the section where I figure out finite lists?
21:05:40 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: "Finite lists"?
21:06:08 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: But won't I want to talk about other things there?
21:06:21 <tswett> "Finite and infinite lists", then?
21:06:47 <hppavilion[1]> I would say the whole section should be based on things that are figured out from the axioms, but I don't know what the term for that is...
21:08:09 <tswett> "Derivations", "constructions", "theorems", "consequences"?
21:08:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44851&oldid=44850 * Hppavilion1 * (+18) One last axiom. On well-foundedness.
21:09:00 <tswett> Is it pronounced like "butterfood", or like "butterfeud"?
21:09:09 <int-e> rdococ: I think you've made your point.
21:09:25 <\oren\> or maybe one lemon, two lemma
21:10:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44852&oldid=44851 * Hppavilion1 * (+43) Constructions section
21:11:49 <int-e> (aka bending reality)
21:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> I request that http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation is filled out
21:26:04 <int-e> that would rather spoil the joke
21:27:09 <rdococ> but he requested it so you must
21:27:16 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
21:27:42 <int-e> rdococ: we can still raise an async exception to save the day
21:27:49 <rdococ> unless you found some kind of super lazy evaluation
21:28:01 <rdococ> should I call it super lazy or ultra lazy?
21:28:31 <int-e> rdococ: why don't you postpone the decision
21:28:49 <hppavilion[1]> If we have that page, esolangs.org/wiki/Strict_Evaluation needs to be made for completeness
21:29:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I would say that super- and ultra- should be different things
21:29:27 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: hmm, would it be a stack overflow while fetching contents of the strict evaluation page?
21:29:39 <rdococ> in my idea, super-lazy evaluation allows you to interact with things WITHOUT evaluating them
21:30:09 <rdococ> e.g. x = f() -- imagine this is five; y = x+2 -- still not evaluated; print(y) -- now it's evaluated
21:30:58 <int-e> rdococ: isn't that just plain lazy evaluation though...
21:31:01 <hppavilion[1]> So it's only evaluated when it's literally impossible not to?
21:31:11 <rdococ> int-e: I don't think so
21:31:33 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I think in lazy, x would be evaluated at x+2
21:31:35 <int-e> > let x = undefined in let y = x + 2 in "Hello, " ++ show y ++ "world!"
21:31:37 <lambdabot> "Hello, *Exception: Prelude.undefined
21:33:04 <rdococ> now in Hyper Lazy Evaluation...
21:33:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It isn't evaluated until it reaches your brain
21:34:13 <rdococ> in hyper lazy evaluation, it isn't evaluated, ever, at all, until you force the computer at gun point to do it
21:34:14 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:34:38 <int-e> . o O ( A hyper-lazy universe collapses the instant it is observed... )
21:35:00 <rdococ> how do we get the value without evaluating it?
21:35:17 <rdococ> also, should preferably take less computation than actually evaluating it
21:35:28 <rdococ> but the expression is not the value...
21:35:51 <int-e> or just print "IOU"
21:36:20 <rdococ> maybe hyper lazy evaluation isn't such a good idea
21:36:27 <hppavilion[1]> Should I allow graph rewriting in ArbourDB? I don't see how it'd work, but it's cool...
21:36:35 <int-e> (actually now it sounds like a promise... a kind of future value... those are genuinely useful in concurrent programming)
21:38:12 -!- augur has joined.
21:39:13 <rdococ> would y = x + 2; evaluate x in normal lazy evaluation?
21:39:44 -!- function has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:39:59 <fizzie> THINK-A-TRON, the machine that thinks like a man.
21:40:03 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAU256S3YtRUVIQWc
21:40:58 <rdococ> does it actually think like a man, or is it predetermined/calculated?
21:41:10 <fizzie> Ah, but isn't that how a man thinks?
21:42:05 <rdococ> predetermined? calculated? I smell something deviously fishy
21:42:25 <rdococ> does this judgement have anything to do with gender?
21:43:55 <fizzie> At least for THINK-A-TRON, I do believe they're using 'man' to refer to both genders.
21:44:20 <fizzie> Well, maybe that's overly binary too. All people.
21:44:56 <Taneb> I was going to ask
21:48:10 <rdococ> does y = x + 2; evaluate in a lazy environment?
22:03:54 <b_jonas> it's fun to read discussion about maths and M:tG mixed. can be confusing when they talk about "permanent" which means a completely different thing in the two.
22:04:14 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:06:35 -!- evalj has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:10:37 <Taneb> rdococ: only when y is evaluated
22:13:25 <\oren\> are there any cards in MtG that take effect when they are drawn?
22:24:03 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:47:10 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:55:09 <\oren\> idea: when data integrity is assured by other means, e.g. checksums or hashes, one can use a unicode encoding which, unlike utf-8, uses all possible sequences of high bytes
22:56:21 <hppavilion[1]> It's interesting that we measure quantities of data in the number of digits it takes to represent it in an obscure counting system few people use, divided by 8, divided by 1024 to the power of a multiple of 3.
22:57:59 <\oren\> Eg. use utf-8, except that instead using only bytes 80-BF for continuation, use 80-FF
22:58:44 <\oren\> and similarly, alter the start bytes so that all bytes 80-FF are valid start bytes
23:01:02 <hppavilion[1]> I want at least digraphs, undigraphs, and their hyper- equivalents. Should I include the multi- equivalents of these?
23:06:45 -!- bb010g has joined.
23:13:10 -!- Wildwood has joined.
23:20:11 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: are you sure you meant 1024 to the power of a multilpe of 3? 10 to the power of a multiple of 3 would make more sense
23:20:24 <FireFly> (or just 1024 to an integer power, or 1000 to an integer power)
23:20:47 <fizzie> Or 2 to the power of a multiple of 10.
23:20:49 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Not when you're dealing with data. The 3 is from metric.
23:22:29 <fizzie> 1024 to the power of a multiple of 3 means you only speak of bytes, gigabytes and exabytes, none of the intermediate units.
23:25:03 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: you mean bytes, kilobytes, megabytes, and gigabytes?
23:25:27 <hppavilion[1]> I mean 1024**(3*x) where x is a natural number (including 0)
23:25:35 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Yes, and 1024^0 is bytes, 1024^3 is gigabytes and 1024^6 is exabytes.
23:25:49 <fizzie> Then they don't have names anymore.
23:26:38 <fizzie> Or, if you want the multiples, 2^(10n).
23:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> Should I create a category for data types, under which we will include things like STIB
23:31:11 -!- Wildwood has left.
23:33:22 <\oren\> Yeah. so it's actually very easy to make a format that uses up to 3 bytes to represent all unicdoe characters
23:33:59 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/utf-8ns.htm
23:38:38 <\oren\> basically if you use all 128 high-bit charaters as coninuation bytes, then you only need 68 start bytes to cover all the planes
23:39:39 <fizzie> Well, I mean, sure, but you could also just use a normal base-128 number (with one bit to indicate first/continuation), which gives you 21 bits of payload when going <= 3 bytes.
23:40:39 <fizzie> As in, normal VLQ encoding.
23:41:27 <fizzie> (Also seen as the Google protobuf varint encoding, and in many many other places.)
23:41:37 <\oren\> yes but that wouldn't be ascii compatible I don't think
23:42:04 <fizzie> To clarify the slightly unclear message: you'd have the sign bit off for the last byte, and on for all bytes for which something will still follow.
23:42:20 <fizzie> That's ASCII-compatible, because it encodes 0..127 as one byte, 0..127.
23:43:00 <\oren\> it still has ascii bytes inside non-ascii characters
23:43:17 <\oren\> (same problem as Shift-JIS has)
23:44:22 <\oren\> since there are only 0x10000 characters with the 21'st bit on, I allocated 4 extra start bytes
23:44:58 <izabera> http://plaintextoffenders.com/ what is insecure about sending a new password to someone via email?
23:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> In lack of objection, I'm creating Category:Data Types
23:47:46 <hppavilion[1]> Should I create Category:Data Types and Structures or make them two separate categories?
23:49:00 <hppavilion[1]> I probably shouldn't roll algorithms into it though
23:49:42 <fizzie> izabera: According to the about page, it's supposedly about websites that store your plaintext password (as evidenced by the fact that they can email it to you). I'm not sure how that matches up with all those "here's your newly generated password" email screenshots.
23:49:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Data Types and Structures]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44853 * Hppavilion1 * (+116) Created Category
23:50:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TIB and STIB]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44854&oldid=8425 * Hppavilion1 * (+39) Categorized
23:52:19 <fizzie> izabera: Yeah, I'm not sure how that's majorly different from a "set your initial password with this link" link, although at least that way (if the recipient gets there first) they're less likely to end up permanently having a password that was sent over the wire unencrypted. (If you just set them an initial random password, I'd guess a lot of people leave it at that.)
23:52:55 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, whoops, looks like Data Structures was already a category.
23:53:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tape]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44855&oldid=8046 * Hppavilion1 * (+15) Switched category
23:53:45 <hppavilion[1]> Oh well, I feel it's better to have them as a joint category
23:54:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44856&oldid=40431 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized
23:54:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Graph]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44857&oldid=43126 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized (GOD! SOMEONE FIX THIS PAGE!)
23:55:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Queue]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44858&oldid=35376 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized
23:55:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44859&oldid=43097 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized
23:56:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[String]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44860&oldid=13365 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized
23:57:06 <\oren\> A uniquestring is a data type consisting of a string of bits which does not occur anywhere else in mamory
23:58:39 <\oren\> the hash of a uniquestring can be used to locate it, hence if an object contains a uniquestring, it can be relocated and the hash can be used to find it