00:00:04 <\oren\> however this is only true for hashes the same or greater length than the uniquestring itself
00:01:33 <\oren\> and of course, there needs to be constant monitoring for collisions
00:04:19 <\oren\> hmm anyway uniquestrings are fairly common, for example a here document uses a uniquestring to locate the end
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00:07:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal Brainfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44861 * Hppavilion1 * (+248) Created Page. Now to go figure out how surreal numbers work.
00:07:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:WIP]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44862 * Hppavilion1 * (+69) Created Template
00:08:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Works-in-Progress]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44863 * Hppavilion1 * (+35) Created Category
00:17:36 <\oren\> https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?26723
00:17:42 <\oren\> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
00:18:00 <\oren\> so that's what was happening!
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00:20:37 <Sgeo__> What's the 4-valued version of a bit?
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00:22:36 <\oren\> so let's see if tmux can handle the astral plane: ๐๐๐๐๐๐
๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐
00:22:43 <\oren\> so let's see if tmux can handle the astral plane: ๐๐๐๐๐๐
๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐
00:22:48 <fizzie> "bibit" doesn't sound too bad either.
00:25:03 <fizzie> (Wikipedia) "By analogy with byte and nybble, a quaternary digit is sometimes called a crumb." I find that a little hard to believe, and there's no citation either.
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00:30:11 <oren> another test ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐
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00:31:42 <fizzie> Iรค! Iรค! Cthulhu fhtagn!
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00:43:24 <hppavilion[1]> And, as a bonus, it doesn't add any new instructions; just a magic cell at index -1.
00:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, it's just like normal BF (or at least some (theoretical) implementations of it): Unbounded cell values in both directions, right-infinite tape, pointer head starts at 0.
00:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> At -1, there's a magic cell that holds the "divisor"
00:45:56 <hppavilion[1]> It starts at value 1 and can never be decremented below that value
00:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> When you call + or - on any cell, instead of adding or subtracting 1 from it, it adds or subtracts 1/tape[-1]. This allows it to represent ANY rational number in a single cell!
00:48:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44864&oldid=44861 * Hppavilion1 * (+36) Categorized
00:48:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44865&oldid=44864 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Recategorized
00:49:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44866&oldid=44796 * Hppavilion1 * (+36) Categorized
00:58:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44867&oldid=44866 * Hppavilion1 * (+554) concurrency, apply to all
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01:08:02 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and in Rationalfuck (which I will be incorporating into Brainfuckโ I think), the + and - commands stay the same on cell -1. So you don't get weird exponential growth errors.
01:11:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44868&oldid=44867 * Hppavilion1 * (+878) Kill, partial ID explanation, implementation specs
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01:21:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to create a programming language using single-character commands by systematically going through unicode and assigning characters meanings
01:23:10 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's not like I'm going to make every Arabic charactere mean something
01:23:42 <hppavilion[1]> No it isn't. I don't speak arabic, and neither do most programmers.
01:24:07 <izabera> that's racist and you have no evidence to support it
01:25:04 <hppavilion[1]> No, it really isn't. I was using Arabic as an example. I'm not going to make arabic characters mean something because the meanings would be arbitrary, because I don't know what the characters refer to
01:25:25 <hppavilion[1]> I could have easily said Japanese or Mandarin or even English.
01:25:42 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, no letter character will mean something because they're reserved for comments
01:26:21 <izabera> one could argue that any meaning you're going to assign to any character will be arbitrary
01:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> Continuing from earlier, "Or more accurately, every character will either be assigned a value, be reserved for comments, or be a "Temporary NOP"
01:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: However, I don't see how saying that I'm not going to assign every Arabic character a meaning is racist. I'm not, because there are a lot of them and I don't know what they mean and they have no real meaning as a single character, from what I understand about Arabic (it's like English in that words are multi-character)
01:29:48 <hppavilion[1]> I have nothing against anyone from the Middle East (well, that's not accurate, I have something against the terrorists in the middle east, but everyone else I'm fine with)
01:31:40 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/43/ why is 4 1 4 2 3 jolly?
01:34:05 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
01:35:08 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: Well most likely, it will be a Comment Character in case anyone speaks Cyrillic when programming and wants to write a comment
01:35:27 <hppavilion[1]> (I could alternatively make #..\n commenting work, if that would be a better idea)
01:36:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44869&oldid=44868 * Hppavilion1 * (+99) NOP
01:37:12 <hppavilion[1]> What should the base Data Structure of this "UniLang" be?
01:37:30 <izabera> after reading that wikipedia page my opinion is that the author was bored and decided to draw a made up character
01:38:03 <doesthiswork> the purpose was entirely for eye puns in medeval russia
01:38:34 <izabera> is there a "i with heart" unicode character?
01:39:00 <izabera> that's far more common than the multiocular o
01:39:04 <oren> there's a heart exclamation mark though
01:40:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, the officially accepted abbreviation of my name is "hp", as it comes from HP Pavilion computers)
01:40:58 <oren> โฅโฃโคโฅโก
01:41:11 <izabera> i would never have guessed that it comes from hp pavilion computers
01:41:14 <hppavilion[1]> I mean combined data structure; a tape of stacks perhaps?
01:41:15 <shachaf> I had an HP Pavilion laptop once.
01:41:23 <doesthiswork> because it is standard, works well when distributed and hasn't been done before
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01:42:05 <shachaf> Lenovo Thinkpads are scow.
01:42:07 <hppavilion[1]> lenovothinkpad: I used to have an HP, but now I have a Lenovo xD
01:42:14 <shachaf> IBM Thinkpads were much better.
01:42:26 <shachaf> I always assumed HP stood for Higgledy Piggledy.
01:42:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Computers are scow. We should all be back in prehistory farming scows.
01:42:37 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
01:43:09 <doesthiswork> yes, but when designing a language the implementation of the base data structure doesn't matter, what matters is what protocol you use to store and retrieve data.
01:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: The base data structure matters to the programmer, at least when it's a BF family language (not to be confused with a BF derivative)
01:44:11 <izabera> i refuse to believe that SMILING CAT FACE WITH HEART-SHAPED EYES exists but there's no i with heart
01:44:33 <hppavilion[1]> (A BF family language uses short ascii commands and operates on a data structure instead of storing variables)
01:44:57 <hppavilion[1]> (BF family is a much more diverse family than C family
01:45:16 <lenovothinkpad> izabera: I'll add an i with a heart to my font in the private use area
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01:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> I think the reason i with heart isn't included is that it's just an i.
01:47:47 <hppavilion[1]> Though combinining hear diacritic may be a good idea
01:47:53 <doesthiswork> h: when you implement brainfuck the data data structure can be implemented however you want as long as it follows the protocol defined in the bf spec.
01:49:20 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: True, but I'm talking about the way the programmer sees the DS
01:49:31 <\oren\> yeah so 0xf800 will be an I with a heart. i'll but j with a heart as F801
01:49:33 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be a stretch to see BF as using anything but a tape
01:49:53 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Make ALL the ascii characters with hearts.
01:50:51 <\oren\> the PUA is from E000 to F8ff
01:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> Why didn't they make it go from something to FFFF?
01:52:02 <\oren\> the area near FFFF is used for halfwidth katakana and wide Ascii characters
01:52:39 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: So what I'm really asking is what should the data structure that the programmer sees be?
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01:53:19 <hppavilion[1]> A tape of stacks? A deque? A Tree of SQL table rows?
01:53:33 <doesthiswork> : esoteric languages are meant to stretch, if you want something like a tape you can use < and > to move to the previous and next location similar to the forward and back buttons on a browser
01:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: But it doesn't /need/ to be a tape. What I'm getting at is what /should/ it be?
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01:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> I'm currently partial to a Tree of something (possibly maps)
01:55:16 <doesthiswork> http operates on a map, and history becomes a tree of locations in the map
01:55:52 <hppavilion[1]> What if browsing the web was like a spaghetti stack instead of a tree? Or something like that?
01:56:07 <hppavilion[1]> Where you start with many webpages and converge on a single root page
01:59:16 <doesthiswork> if you have an operation to take the value of the current location and make the next pointer point at it, then you can dynamically change the graph
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02:01:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Which is what I call a graph where the vertices have a value
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02:25:08 <tswett> I think I'd call that a "vertex-labeled graph", or a "labeled graph" for short (but that's ambiguous), or a "graph with its vertices labeled" for long.
02:27:43 <FireFly> Hypergraphs seem weird, but I guess they're useful for something
02:28:02 <FireFly> I mean, it seems weird to me to think of it as a kind of graph, rather than just a subset of the powerset of a set
02:31:25 <tswett> A category theorist defines a graph as "a set V, a set E, and two functions from E to V".
02:31:46 <tswett> Replacing "two" with a different number isn't much of a leap.
02:36:08 <tswett> Oh, so I've figured out how to augment my amazing programming language to allow you to define stuff like addition.
02:36:08 <tswett> add(zero, y) = y; add(succ(x), y) = succ(add(x, y));
02:40:37 <tswett> But that's the... anti-abbreviated syntax, so to speak. It hides what's really going on by making stuff more verbose.
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02:43:37 <tswett> Here's a better syntax:
02:43:57 <tswett> add(x, y) = recurse x for {zero -> y; succ -> succ(base)}
02:44:52 <tswett> 'Course, we can define multiplication and exponentiation similarly.
02:45:13 <tswett> mult(x, y) = recurse x for {zero -> zero; succ -> add(base, y)}
02:45:41 <Sgeo__> Is it an ALU even if I don't have a way to select which one I want?
02:46:06 <Sgeo__> Like, if I set A, B, then go, it will give me A&B and A|B (on different lines), but I can't say only do one?
02:46:43 <tswett> exp(x, y) = recurse y for {zero -> succ(zero); succ -> mult(base, x)}
02:47:30 <tswett> Sgeo__: I think I've only seen the term "ALU" used in reference to hardware.
02:48:17 <Sgeo__> Are Activeworlds objects hardware? They're things I'm trying to make primitive logic gates out of, don't have a full fledged programming language
02:48:38 <Sgeo__> But they do seem to support NAND and memory, which I'm trying to make more efficient
02:49:10 <tswett> A simulation of hardware also counts, I suppose.
02:50:42 <Sgeo__> Doesn't quite behave exactly like transistors, though
02:54:23 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll make BFโ work on a tape-o-stacks, just for fun
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03:10:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44870&oldid=44869 * Hppavilion1 * (+1458) A couple new commands, compounding keywords. Working towards covering all of Basic Latin.
03:12:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuckโ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44871&oldid=44870 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a command collision
03:19:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cain]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44872 * Hppavilion1 * (+267) Named language. Now to invent it.
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03:22:50 <hppavilion[1]> A blog in which someone has discovered a mysterious program on their computer. They launch it to discover that it's an omnific programming language. They can't send it to anybody, but they can do some /pretty/ powerful things with it. The entire blog serves to entertain, teach some programming concepts, and generally be awesome.
03:24:04 <hppavilion[1]> My current idea has some dark but lighthearted occult themes to it
03:28:40 <Sgeo__> http://i.imgur.com/LbXV9pT.jpg
03:28:49 <Sgeo__> Why is there a 19th floor? There shouldn't be a 19th floor
03:30:06 <Sgeo__> In this show loosely based off the Wayside School books
03:31:13 <tswett> In the books, how is there no 19th floor? Like, what is the way in which it is absent?
03:32:41 <Sgeo__> The builder forgot to build it. (I think exactly what this looks like is a bit unspecified)
03:32:53 <Sgeo__> I think it's numbering, 18th, then 20th
03:33:25 <Sgeo__> Doesn't stop people from wandering into a non-existent classroom with a non-existent teacher, then asked to write down the numbers 1 to 1000000 in alphabetical order
03:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: I'm pretty sure it was the 13th floor that was missing...
03:34:46 <Sgeo__> http://wayside.wikia.com/wiki/19th_story
03:34:57 <zzo38> In many builtings they do not have a floor numbered 13 even though they have more floors than that
03:35:14 <tswett> Is there a 31st floor?
03:35:28 <tswett> Or does it stop at 30?
03:35:48 <Sgeo__> The numbering stops at 30 (so it's the 29th floor if numbering included 19)
03:37:05 <Sgeo__> In one of the books, the chapter numbers go 19, 19, 19, "20, 21, 22"
03:37:40 <Sgeo__> Also, there are two elevators, one which only goes up, one which only goes down. Each is only used once.
03:38:08 <tswett> That reminds me of a certain paradox.
03:38:31 <tswett> There were some people who worked in a tall office building, one of them near the top and one of them near the bottom.
03:39:17 <zzo38> I think I read the book relating to Wayside School where there was no problem 19 (which was supposed to be the hardest problem in the book, but the teacher omitted it because one of the students prove that there can be no surprise quiz this week).
03:40:00 <tswett> The one near the top noticed that whenever they went to the elevators to go home for the day, the next elevator to arrive was usually going up.
03:40:10 <tswett> The one near the bottom, on the other hand, noticed that it was usually going down.
03:40:44 <tswett> So if most of the elevators near the top of the building are going up, and most near the bottom of the building are going down, it must be that elevators are being created in the middle of the building and then destroyed at the top and bottom.
03:40:48 <Sgeo__> zzo38, one of the math books. I remember starting to read one, but it started talking about girls' underwear so I got embarrassed and stopped. This was in elementary school I think
03:41:35 <\oren\> should have waited till grade 7 and started again from that point
03:41:41 <tswett> Also, I remember the surprise quiz. I think that book was the one that exposed me to the unexpected hanging paradox.
03:41:47 <tswett> By the way, I have some important arithmetic.
03:41:54 <tswett> > [432/9, 324/9, 243/9]
03:42:31 <tswett> > [432/27, 324/27, 243/27]
03:42:35 <Sgeo__> I guess this one then http://wayside.wikia.com/wiki/More_Sideways_Arithmetic_from_Wayside_School
03:42:42 <Sgeo__> http://wayside.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_book_chapters
03:42:55 <lambdabot> [1.3333333333333333,1.3333333333333333]
03:53:38 <doesthiswork> tswett: of course now that we know surprise is measured in shannon information, we could come up with a stochastic procedure that maximized expected surprise even when the procedure is known
03:54:08 <tswett> That would just be produced by using the uniform distribution over days, right?
03:54:29 <tswett> Your total amount of surprise is just the negative log of the prior probability of the day which ended up chosen.
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04:00:29 <doesthiswork> if we maximise anticipation instead then we should sum the expected surprise for each day before the quiz
04:02:01 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4CCCGYyn30
04:03:05 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/77/ -> http://arin.ga/PCXSYB/raw
04:08:13 <tswett> doesthiswork: and exclude surprise the day *of* the quiz?
04:08:47 <tswett> I feel like then it's probably maximized by making there be a 50% chance of having the quiz, each day that it hasn't been had yet.
04:08:55 <tswett> At least, if the school week has infinitely many days.
04:11:29 <hppavilion[1]> Does the Unexpected Hanging Paradox have any relation to Computer Science?
04:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> Is there some problem that it contributes to/helps solve?
04:12:00 <hppavilion[1]> And wouldn't it be funny if it was the solution to P vs NP?
04:12:14 <doesthiswork> the reason I say it is silly because anticipation jumps through the roof if you say that the quiz will be sometime /next/ week
04:14:39 <doesthiswork> a school week with an indefinate end is nice solution to the paradox
04:15:11 <tswett> The unexpected hanging paradox is sort of an interesting investigation of "it is provable that" as a logical operator.
04:21:33 <doesthiswork> is there a simple explanation of when "it is provable" can be used as a logical operator without leading to paradoxes?
04:24:59 <zzo38> You would have to make up the rules of "it is provable that" operator, and then it can be usable.
04:26:24 <tswett> IIRC, the unexpected hanging paradox is not a paradox in the mathematical sense.
04:28:00 <shachaf> I don't think there is a mathematical sense of paradox.
04:28:07 <shachaf> It's not a mathematical word.