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00:07:12 <FireFly> yeah, buona notte. darn, the one phrase I learned in Italian, and I forgot it
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00:22:40 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's a vector font renderer for my own custom format. I made it for WalrusOS, which is an EsOS
00:23:16 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you seem to have an unhealthy affinity towards walruses. walrii. walrusseses.
00:23:27 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn waltext2/WalrusOS's vector font renderer. See "WalText2i" for the improved version.
00:24:36 <boily> hppavilion[1]: chickens are better, nah!
00:24:45 <hppavilion[1]> In WalText2, you create forms by declaring points (and other significant numbers) that it should be drawn based on. A line might be written as "LINE 0 0 15 12"
00:25:17 <hppavilion[1]> But that has some syntactic problems; namely, in "0 0 15 12", there's nothing associating "0 0" and "15 12" as x/y points.
00:25:44 <hppavilion[1]> Well, you know how complex numbers can be represented as a point in the complex plane?
00:26:48 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm kind of tempted to self-quote those last two lines, but I'm afraid of looking arrogant)
00:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: So yeah. That's a bit eso, I suppose, but not really /that/ eso, as I'm just dealing with syntax.
00:27:36 <hppavilion[1]> Expressions. Not only that, expressions that can have randomness associated with them.
00:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> So, for example, you can use the complex conjugate of a number to make sure things line up. You can add points together.
00:29:54 <hppavilion[1]> Also, you can use the ~ binary operator to choose a random integer. 0~3 chooses a random number between 0 and 3 (inclusive) for you, so you can emulate human error in your fonts (the numbers are chosen on each drawing, so the tidle of an i or j might be in a different position on each letter)
00:30:06 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: That's not the random part, the other part's the random part
00:31:07 <hppavilion[1]> Inefficient, perhaps (I'll probably add an option in the renderer to cache the expression results which would derandomize the positions, but run faster)
00:31:33 <izabera> i don't like most existing fonts, what makes you think that generating them randomly is such a good idea?
00:31:59 <zzo38> What if you want to prerender then?
00:32:50 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: You aren't generating them randomly exactly; you're allowing the font designer to make slightly more random positioning to make the letters look more varied. Not good for, say, monospace, but good if you want to make a less uncanny valley comic sans
00:32:55 <zzo38> One thing that can be done is if you want to render to PK or GF, an option to render each character multiple times
00:33:26 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'll probably do that if I make a PK or GF converter for WTII
00:33:39 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Define prerender for me. I'm a noob at rendering, so I'm just fumbling around here
00:34:37 <zzo38> To convert into PK or GF you need to prerender everything in the intended output device's resolution, so the source file will still be needed if you want to be able to use it with multiple resolutions
00:35:14 <zzo38> (Also you need only one of PK or GF; you can easily convert between them using "pktogf" and "gftopk" programs)
00:37:19 <oerjan> <boily> italianøsnji. <-- italiensk hth
00:38:57 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Ah. If you want to prerender, it just chooses a random number on load and sticks with it.
00:39:25 <oerjan> `le/rn waltext2/WalText2 is WalrusOS's vector font renderer. See "WalText2i" for the improved version.
00:40:01 <boily> <oerjan> <boily> italianøsnji. <-- italiensk hth <-- it may be so in the Real Worlds, but it's not as interesting :)
00:40:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Couldn't come up with a joke when I was making that xD
00:41:10 <oerjan> boily: nji isn't particularly norwegian.
00:41:37 <boily> afaik, it's Portuguesish.
00:41:55 * boily hides behind izabera
00:43:12 <oerjan> or snj, really, although there are enough norse names starting with nj that you could imagine it in a compound.
00:43:34 <zzo38> METAFONT does the same, it choose a random number on load (although you can specify the random number seed explicitly if wanted, too)
00:43:56 <izabera> hppavilion[1] == knuth undercover
00:45:00 <zzo38> If you use any random numbers in your METAFONT input file, then the log file will include the random number seed in use so that you can repeat the same results again if you want to do so.
00:45:11 <oerjan> izabera: knuth doesn't waste time by coming on #esoteric, he just asks esr and ais523 to do the work for him
00:45:28 <izabera> this explains so many things
00:45:31 <Taneb> I met Hoare the other day
00:46:23 <Taneb> He presented a public lecture at my university
00:46:33 <Taneb> About Pioneers of Computer Science
00:46:44 <Taneb> Which... had Euclid as the second-most recent (spoilers)
00:46:51 <Taneb> Hence my topic of thought 23 hours ago
00:47:06 <izabera> he started it with a slide that just said "YOU'RE ALL NOOBS COMPARED TO ME"
00:47:17 <Taneb> He seemed a really nice guy
00:47:47 <Taneb> No but my parents have one and my brother has a puppy
00:48:43 <boily> maybe esr and ais523 are the same person...
00:49:55 <Taneb> Is that a person who comes on IRC?
00:50:24 <izabera> not on this channel but he probably spen(ds|t) a fair amount of time on irc
00:50:49 <Taneb> Aaaah, fair enough
00:51:10 <izabera> also shame on you for not knowing him
00:51:20 <Taneb> I am not good at names
00:51:32 <Taneb> I only know my own name because I come from a clan of supervillains
00:51:52 <izabera> Taneb doesn't sound like a supervillain name
00:52:15 <oerjan> his real name is Nathan van Doom hth
00:52:57 <oerjan> also the creator of C-INTERCAL.
00:53:40 <Taneb> That's where the name was familiar from!
00:54:40 <Taneb> And yes, Nathan van Doom is approximately my name
00:59:31 <Taneb> I'm starting a league of people who are almost supervillains
00:59:44 <Taneb> So far it's got me and a Mr Mascetti
01:01:05 <oerjan> norwegian -sen names aren't very good for supervillainery :(
01:01:29 <Taneb> Isn't your name the Norwegian equivalent of George Johnson
01:02:37 <Taneb> Not very villainous at all
01:02:46 <Taneb> That's a bystander name at best, I am afraid
01:02:47 <izabera> george johnson by day, evil baron von terroristan by night
01:03:12 <oerjan> well one of the equivalents. Georg Hansen, Jørgen Jonsen, Jørn Johannesen ...
01:04:17 <oerjan> i'm talking about norwegian-sounding equivalents here, boily
01:04:35 <boily> oh, not oerjanequivalents. my bad.
01:04:55 <oerjan> well sure they're all cognate to my name
01:04:57 <boily> I thought you were translating to other scandinavian languages.
01:05:47 <oerjan> no, that would be Göran Johansson and Jørgen Jensen
01:05:57 <oerjan> oh i forgot jensen, that's norwegian too
01:06:09 <oerjan> but more stereotypically danish
01:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> my first name directly translates as 'ruler of the world' so as a child i felt like i had some heavy expectations heaped on me
01:06:39 <FireFly> In what language does it mean that?
01:07:14 <\oren\> My last name is watson and someone always makes a sherlock holmes joke
01:08:05 <FireFly> Fancy, I also want a gaelic name
01:08:09 <hppavilion[1]> I'm cataloging common meanings for characters (e.g. $ in stacky languages means DROP)
01:08:22 <FireFly> IIRC mine means dove, which is p. boring
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01:08:52 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], that's Jonathan
01:08:58 <Taneb> Which is not my name
01:09:01 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to decide whether to sort the pages primarily by Unicode block or by language type
01:09:18 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I'm a Nathan too, and I'm pretty sure it means Gift from God, from the last time I checked
01:09:21 <FireFly> Hm, I had a very distant relaive called Natan (I think he spelled it that way)
01:10:01 <boily> I protect men, according to my name.
01:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> Also, is anyone curious about my 8 pages of arbitrary character-to-procedure associations for Getchl yet? xD
01:10:55 <izabera> focus on actually developing it
01:11:01 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], apparently it can be translated has "He has given"
01:11:32 <Taneb> Hebrew is not a language I am familiar with
01:11:32 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Getchl or the Unicode Blocks? I already developed most of getchl and am just procrastinating initial testing.
01:12:07 <Taneb> My parents called me "Nathan" because they didn't know any Nathans
01:12:28 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I think that's what my parents went with too; look for a name that isn't used as much
01:12:49 <Taneb> Then they kept meeting Nathans all over the place
01:12:52 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe that was my third cousin's parents. Definitely them, but maybe my parents too
01:12:52 <izabera> a friend of my dad died and that's how i got my name
01:13:05 <Taneb> The florist at my christening was called Nathan
01:13:22 <Taneb> My brother got his name because my parents looked at him and thought he looked like a Benjamin
01:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember my parents saying they consulted some family member who spoke irish to make sure they used the least pronouncable spelling
01:13:46 <hppavilion[1]> So I think I'll sort the pages primarily by language type
01:14:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: if you say so, donald
01:14:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: is it still pronounced the same btw
01:21:34 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how did you end up as "Phantom_Hoover", if I may ask?
01:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was funny when i was about twelve, i think
01:24:56 <mauris> i have my grandpa's name, but with a fresh 90s twist to its spelling!! it's quite uncommon
01:25:29 <Taneb> mauris, my dad has a variant of his uncle's name
01:26:49 <mauris> boily: yeah. then my parents botched the -ce and decided putting an 's' there was The Future
01:27:14 <boily> the Future is Now!
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01:29:41 <mauris^> Should change my legal name to include this caret IMO
01:31:45 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> but I don't know how to proof it formally :( <-- look at the position of the last s, minimize the part before, and use the fact that optimal representations of two neighboring representatble numbers cannot differ by more than 1 in length
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01:34:41 <oerjan> mauris^: wait i assumed it was some flemish variant of mauritz
01:35:03 <oerjan> is it pronounced flemish or french
01:35:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45342 * Hppavilion1 * (+1626) New language time! This one a reincarnation of UniLang
01:36:49 <mauris^> Nope, it's a unique variation on the French 'maurice'! It's pronounced the Flemish way, [mo'RIs] where R is your favourite r consonant
01:37:24 <oerjan> don't the flemish agree on what R is?
01:38:17 <oerjan> (the norwegians don't either fwiw)
01:38:36 <mauris^> Not really. Some say [r] and some say [UPSIDE DOWN R HERE THANKS]
01:38:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45343&oldid=45342 * Hppavilion1 * (+52) Added an optional reader head to the data model
01:38:50 <mauris^> I'm in the latter camp, I.e. Uvular trill
01:39:09 <mauris^> A terrifying sound, I hear
01:39:52 <oerjan> (the latter is less terrifying)
01:39:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45344&oldid=45343 * Hppavilion1 * (-11) Removed comments from the grammar, as they should be handled by the lexer
01:41:00 <Taneb> oerjan, apparently the English don't either. I can pronounce r in two ways that sound identical to me but feel different (and are in fact different)
01:42:00 <izabera> how do you know which one you're pronouncing?
01:42:07 <Taneb> Different mouth shape
01:42:32 <Taneb> One is strictly speaking a [ʋ]
01:42:55 <oerjan> wait portuguese has uvular rs?
02:03:04 <hppavilion[1]> They both work by evaluating their second argument contingent on their first
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02:08:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45345&oldid=45344 * Hppavilion1 * (+189) Lists and sets; empty available
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02:12:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45346&oldid=45345 * Hppavilion1 * (+87) Bools, rearranged EBNF
02:15:05 <zzo38> If you output TFM/GF/PK from a font program, one thing that needs to be done is to calculate a checksum. The algorithm you use to calculate it is unimportant, as long as it does not depend on the device resolution or any random numbers or the file format used for output. Zero may also be used if you do not need or want a checksum.
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02:39:21 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I take it you were too disgusted by the google docs link to check?
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02:41:38 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: If I ever get my hands on a website, I promise to publish future documents as OpenOffice.
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02:46:57 <zzo38> I checked only the wiki page, which does not say much and has no example programs.
02:47:52 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Well I haven't finished formulating the language yet
02:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The langauge is, essentially, a list of operator expressions. Not even functions are allowed.
02:52:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45347&oldid=45346 * Hppavilion1 * (+473) Made page remotely close to good.
02:54:53 <zzo38> I could see that in the description at least
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03:05:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45348&oldid=45347 * Hppavilion1 * (+351) Special variables, example programs, zzo38
03:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> How about a nanny mcphee-like language? One that encourages good programming practices by allowing you to do bad things, but having arbitrary and awful rules when you do
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03:20:09 <zzo38> OK then don't try.
03:22:28 <zzo38> I am working on DVI->PBM program.
03:23:48 <zzo38> Other programs such as foo2zjs and so on can then be used to drive printers that use host-based printing.
03:25:20 <zzo38> That is how host-based printing works; it needs to generate the picture on the computer and then send to printer.
03:26:37 <zzo38> (The printer I now have does not support PCL so I am doing it this way instead; it can be useful for other printers and other purposes too though)
03:31:34 <zzo38> PCL is a printer format for many Hewlett Packard laser printers, as well as some printers by other manufacturers too.
03:33:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Do loop until failure or condition else]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45349&oldid=45250 * Hppavilion1 * (+34) Categorized
03:36:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Arithmetic while]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45350 * Hppavilion1 * (+341) Created Page as filler, really
03:38:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto-when]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45351 * Hppavilion1 * (+265) Created page as MOAR filler
03:40:33 <quintopia> this is not how we use the wiki...
03:45:33 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: What? Creating stubby pages, or making filler pages (although the ideas were valid ones)?
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03:48:09 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Or do you mean that the pages aren't esolangs, but instead components that could be used for esolangs?
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04:49:13 <zzo38> I expect my program can work with troff as well, as long as you can make PK fonts. (This program does not require that the units of measurement match those of TeX; any units can be used, which is needed if troff is used since troff does not use the same units as TeX.)
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05:35:56 <zzo38> Do you know what fonts are needed to print man pages with grodvi?
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06:47:22 <zzo38> I got a SIGILL from _dl_x86_64_restore_sse from _dl_fixup from _dl_runtime_resolve from the following code: fp = fdopen(pipefd[0/*read*/], "r");
06:47:53 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong? It only did that once; when I tried again I could not repeat the problem.
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07:10:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Möbius]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45352 * Hppavilion1 * (+1546) Started on design
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07:25:56 <Jafet> Apparently deadfish proofs are not so easy.
07:26:04 <Jafet> http://46.4.207.77/deadfish-outline.pdf
07:26:18 <Jafet> Nearly got to int-e's lemma, though.
07:29:02 <oerjan> Jafet: i'm pretty sure the difficulty there isn't with deadfish hth
07:29:38 <Jafet> The izabera theorem prover
07:29:45 <Jafet> http://isabelle.in.tum.de/
07:29:57 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't think that was his lemma.
07:30:22 <oerjan> or rather, one of the numbers is supposed to be 1
07:30:50 <Jafet> That was the one I didn't get to.
07:31:35 <oerjan> oh wait you're actually defining a metric there.
07:32:06 <oerjan> well, int-e's lemma is just as special case of the last one there.
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07:33:46 <oerjan> Jafet: actually you just need that + costDF x y <= |y-x| if 256 is not between them
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08:27:13 <int-e> oh Jafet is an isabelle user
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09:53:10 <lambdabot> oerjan said 8h 21m 24s ago: <mroman> but I don't know how to proof it formally :( <-- look at the position of the last s, minimize the part before, and use the fact that optimal representations of two neighboring representatble numbers cannot differ by more than 1 in length
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10:19:28 <b_jonas> fungot, do you know how to prove it formally? minimize the part before.
10:19:29 <fungot> b_jonas: pastebin.ca is mind-bendingly slow for me in t? just an object that is in the classpath, ( require-library ' sisc/ libs/ srfi
10:20:49 <fizzie> fungot: Could you fix all bugs. Just, everywhere?
10:20:49 <fungot> fizzie: it can be done
10:21:17 <b_jonas> fungot: but keep the ascended bugs untouched please
10:21:17 <fungot> b_jonas: i'm a research assistant that writes models are usually a pain in the ass.... you got the pyc files for me? :)
10:21:34 <b_jonas> fungot: no, but you can generate them quickly with python anyway
10:21:35 <fungot> b_jonas: room kill point, but my irc client stated to use 99% cpu idle box with nice -20
10:21:53 <b_jonas> fungot: right, there's your first bug you have to fix
10:21:53 <fungot> b_jonas: lost some history and philosophy of r5rs. this makes me fnord is slow as shit
10:22:21 <fizzie> fungot: Maybe you should try an IRC client not written in Funge+
10:22:25 <fungot> fizzie: but yes, could optimize it to fit cs stuff. :)
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10:58:37 <mroman> fungot: You have been unproven.
10:58:38 <fungot> mroman: your analogy is wrong.
11:00:00 <mroman> Wait.. it lost the philosophy of r5rs
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11:55:31 <fungot> boily: now to sleep. hope to see this
11:55:40 <fungot> boily: for what does iterate walk code?
11:55:56 <lambdabot> Local time for \oren\ is Fri Nov 13 06:55:38 2015
11:56:28 <boily> fizzie: make the 'got answer to localtime twh
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12:16:01 <fizzie> boily: Sometimes I answer it manually with ^raw.
12:16:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
12:16:52 <fizzie> fungot: Your local time is currently GMT hth hand
12:16:52 <fungot> fizzie: check the topic in the minibuffer in erc. it's hard to get stuff from the front
12:16:57 <mroman> fungot: Any more details about that weird language 'or'?
12:16:57 <fungot> mroman: in case you're inside a loop when you wanna test 0 in mycology that is? :p
12:17:27 <HackEgo> Al Gore invented the algorithm.
12:18:01 <b_jonas> `le/rn al gore/Al Gore invented the algorithm and the internet.
12:18:07 <HackEgo> Al Gore invented the algorithm and the internet.
12:18:11 <HackEgo> sgeo/Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
12:18:23 <HackEgo> quote/Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
12:18:25 <lambdabot> Local time for fungot is no time for that
12:18:38 <HackEgo> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat
12:18:47 <HackEgo> wercome/エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
12:18:51 <HackEgo> zomgmodules/ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs.
12:19:07 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. Did you tanebvent the ZOMGMODULES?
12:19:19 <boily> b_jonas: you know what your duty is.
12:19:34 <boily> ah! I had the conflagrated in my mind.
12:20:05 <boily> b_jonas: only one 'n' I think.
12:20:19 <b_jonas> boily: yes, it's "Cenobite"
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12:25:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yoda: not found
12:30:55 <Jafet> `le/rn yoda/Yoda's oration, disordered always.
12:33:25 <b_jonas> Proper yodaism I don't think that is. End with the verb the sentence must.
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12:35:09 <mroman> `? Jogurth is the german word for a special kind of belt while doing Yoga.
12:35:10 <HackEgo> Jogurth is the german word for a special kind of belt while doing Yoga.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:35:20 <mroman> `? Jogurth is the german word for a special kind of belt worn while doing Yoga.
12:35:21 <HackEgo> Jogurth is the german word for a special kind of belt worn while doing Yoga.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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12:57:14 <Jafet> A point that's good you make.
12:58:41 <Jafet> `le/rn yoda/Yoda object-verb dialogue adopts.
13:01:49 <Jafet> Hmm, it's even OSV.
13:09:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45353&oldid=43846 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
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13:30:01 <Jafet> The lord of life and dash.
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13:54:15 <b_jonas> subversion has reverse blame since 1.8 or since 1.9?
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13:57:25 <b_jonas> (if only there was a way to find out when a feature was added)
14:01:03 <b_jonas> 1.9 client, but requires 1.8 or later server
14:04:37 <b_jonas> I don't have stack space for this many nested problems when trying to fix another problem
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14:15:52 <mroman> You don't own the pineapple, you are the pineapple.
14:16:17 <mroman> also every time I read a pdf with large font this terminal font looks ridiculously small.
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14:20:07 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
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14:20:58 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords
14:21:07 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? wercome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "wercome"; }
14:21:31 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/?wercome: No such file or directory
14:21:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
14:21:49 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
14:21:58 <mroman> oh so welcomes are wisdoms
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14:26:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45354&oldid=34878 * Quintopia * (+62) /* Examples */
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14:29:16 <mroman> A language isn't a language without a syntax and grammar?
14:30:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45355&oldid=45234 * Quintopia * (+120) /* Implementations */
14:30:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45356&oldid=45355 * Quintopia * (-1) /* Aubergine] */
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14:53:07 <Jafet> mromanes eunt domus!
14:57:27 <quintopia> mroman: i would say if there are no rules which the syntax must follow, then it is pretty much the same as no syntax
14:58:14 <quintopia> e.g. if there's no such concept as "a well-formed sentence"
14:59:50 <quintopia> and perhaps any language consisting only of no-argument commands in which no commands need matching commands
15:00:43 <quintopia> ResPlicate may qualify, if one chooses to call it a "language"
15:02:15 <mroman> most 2D languages don't have requirements such as "brackets need to match"
15:02:21 <mroman> if that qualifies as "no syntax" as well.
15:03:02 <mroman> but "brackets need to match" is grammar, not syntax actually :)
15:03:25 <quintopia> that distinction seems pretty blurry to me
15:03:27 <mroman> "isdo" are instructions, rest is comments is already a syntax
15:03:37 <mroman> quintopia: I don't know where exactly the line between syntax/grammar is.
15:03:47 <mroman> I think that's an arbitrary line more or less.
15:04:09 <mroman> except for syntax is what the lexer uses, grammar is what the parser uses
15:04:15 <mroman> but actually syntax is just a subset of grammar
15:04:30 <quintopia> insisting that [ come before ] is syntax
15:04:46 <quintopia> insisting that every [ have a corresponding ] is grammar
15:05:23 <mroman> integer = ? digit ?, { ? digit ? }
15:06:01 <mroman> may be equally well part of the syntax or the grammar
15:06:37 <mroman> binExp = integer, "+", integer
15:07:17 <quintopia> I found someone saying "A grammar is a set of rules that define the syntax for a particular language."
15:07:20 <mroman> syntax defines terminal symbols
15:07:24 <mroman> grammar defines non-terminal symbols?
15:08:31 <quintopia> i even have now found a distinction between "syntax grammar" and "semantics grammar"
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15:09:09 <mroman> the syntax defines what a valid terminal symbol is, and the grammar defines how you can build non-terminal symbols out of terminal symbols
15:10:55 <mroman> although technically, integer wouldn't be a terminal symbol in this example?
15:11:02 <mroman> If I remember the definition correctly :D
15:11:21 <quintopia> "Pragmatically, anyone who relies on a distinction between "syntactic" and "grammatical" had better say so and explain what they mean."
15:11:37 <fizzie> The "lexical syntax" term is often used for that sort of syntax.
15:12:56 <quintopia> So, in some sense, any language that does not specify how you are allowed to arrange symbols is both syntax-less and grammar-less
15:13:09 <quintopia> (up to what constitutes a single symbol)
15:13:09 <mroman> also compilers will tell you "syntax error" if you have unbalanced brackets
15:13:12 <mroman> and not "grammar error"
15:13:20 <mroman> grammar does not exist, only syntax.
15:13:57 <mroman> but grammar would be on a semantical level then
15:14:29 <quintopia> there is presumably also a system (e.g. type system) to define semantic grammar
15:14:36 <Jafet> A terminal symbol is where you can find a ✈ symbol.
15:16:03 <quintopia> A bad pun symbol is where you can find oerjan's ===\___/ symbol
15:16:10 <mroman> I think linguists have a different definition of syntax/grammar
15:16:45 <mroman> "Ich den Hund mag" is a grammatical error
15:16:53 <mroman> "Ich mag den Huhnd" is a spelling error.
15:17:00 <mroman> and I guess spelling errors are syntax errors
15:17:55 <quintopia> a grammarian would not consider a spelling error to be a syntax error, since syntax is about the arrangement of words, not the symbols that constitute them
15:18:10 <quintopia> but a programming language designer would consider it a syntax error
15:18:34 <mroman> "esle" would be parsed as an identifier.
15:18:38 <FireFly> I would say spelling error are lexical errors, and both lexical and grammar errors are syntax errors
15:18:53 <mroman> so depending on where you make the error it's actually not a syntax error but a semantical one
15:20:32 <mroman> I'm not qualified to discuss this topic :D
15:20:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cardinal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45357&oldid=19561 * Martin Büttner * (+25)
15:20:50 <mroman> I'm only qualified to discuss indentity functions.
15:21:04 <b_jonas> Is there something like diff -b that also ignores changes in whitespace at the start of line, but not in the middle of words
15:21:12 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*diff*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
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16:12:38 <Taneb> Awww, I don't pronounce "reform" like in the topic
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16:16:07 <Taneb> Here was the Tony Hoare lecture I went to the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz7DfbOuvOM
16:44:55 <Taneb> It is quite interesting
16:52:40 <Melvar> Is the first field of a C struct reliably at the same address as the struct itself?
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16:55:52 <Jafet> Yes, this is how C implements subtyping.
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17:02:13 <Melvar> Jafet: Thank you. Hmmmm…
17:03:06 <fizzie> How some people writing C do that, more like.
17:06:35 <Melvar> I’m writing code to discover things about C types, and pondering how much bootstrapping code in C I have to write.
17:07:36 <Jafet> Well, I suspect this behaviour was standardised with that usage in mind.
17:08:15 <fizzie> Possibly. The common initial subsequence rule certainly was.
17:09:38 <fizzie> Obligatory reference: C11 6.7.2.1p15: "A pointer to a structure object, suitably converted, points to its initial member (or [boring exception]), and vice versa."
17:09:55 <fizzie> The boring exception is about bitfields, which you can't point at.
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17:12:29 <Melvar> Hmm. While I’m at it: What happens if a struct member is declared as: 1. a fixed-size array 2. a non-sized array?
17:14:26 <fizzie> If it's declared with a fixed-size array, you have an array of that size in the struct.
17:14:45 <fizzie> If it's declared as an array with no size specifier, it's a "flexible array member", which has various restrictions and special behavior.
17:15:06 <fizzie> (E.g. it needs to be the last member, it's mostly ignored in considering the size of the structure except for possible padding, etc.)
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17:16:35 <mroman> (there might be padding/spacing in between struct members)
17:16:54 <fizzie> Flexible array members are intended for stuff like struct { size_t len; unsigned char data[]; } where you'd like to have some extra cruft in the same chunk of memory.
17:17:42 <Melvar> mroman: Right, which is why I need to have access to offsetof to get at any non-first member fully reliably.
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17:19:54 <fizzie> `cc struct a { char x; }; struct b { char x; double d[]; }; int main(void) { printf("%zu, %zu", sizeof (struct a), sizeof (struct b)); }
17:20:06 <fizzie> That's one case where the flexible array member actually makes a difference.
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17:25:30 <Melvar> Okay, given an array of sometype, is its stride equal to align(sizeof(sometype),alignof(sometype)), where align(x, a) = min{y : y ≥ x ∧ a | y} ?
17:28:01 <fizzie> Given an array of sometype, it's stride is equal to sizeof(sometype).
17:28:23 <fizzie> There's no padding inside an array.
17:32:38 <Melvar> `cc struct a { long long x, short y; }; int main(void) { struct a p[2]; printf("%zu, %td", sizeof(struct a), &p[1] - &p[0]); }
17:32:50 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:25: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘short’ \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
17:33:04 <Melvar> `cc struct a { long long x; short y; }; int main(void) { struct a p[2]; printf("%zu, %td", sizeof(struct a), &p[1] - &p[0]); }
17:33:23 <Melvar> Ah, so the size is inflated.
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17:33:59 <Melvar> That is, the end of a struct is padded to its alignment?
17:34:58 <Melvar> `cc struct a { long long x; short y; }; int main(void) { struct a p[2]; printf("%zu, %td", sizeof(struct a), (void *)(&p[1]) - (void *)(&p[0])); }
17:35:04 <fizzie> Well, it could be padded "just because", too.
17:35:08 <fizzie> Also, what you wrote isn't standard.
17:35:31 <fizzie> It's using a GCC extension that defines sizeof (void) == 1, and pointer arithmetic on void * consistently with that.
17:35:56 <fizzie> You could use (char *)&p[1] - (char *)&p[0] to avoid a constraint violation.
17:36:22 <Melvar> Oh, you normally can’t pointer-arithmetic on (void *)?
17:36:53 <Melvar> But sizeof(char) is guaranteed to be 1, yes?
17:38:30 <Melvar> Not that what I’m doing doesn’t depend on gcc or clang being used in the first place …
17:39:34 <Melvar> In case it was unclear, I had thought the struct could be shorter so that its end wouldn’t be aligned.
17:42:50 <Melvar> Anyway, thanks for the help, I’ll be sure to show up again for more questions.
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18:08:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Möbius]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45358&oldid=45352 * Hppavilion1 * (+1353) Formatting, removed stack mode, more commands
18:08:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Möbius]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45359&oldid=45358 * Hppavilion1 * (+3) Formatting
18:23:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45360&oldid=45348 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) /* Hello World */ Fixed an example
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18:42:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45361&oldid=45360 * Hppavilion1 * (+20) Made intro ω% better
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19:07:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Data Models]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45362 * Hppavilion1 * (+139) Created Page
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20:08:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45363 * Hppavilion1 * (+776) Data Model
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20:48:01 <b_jonas> fungot, do you have an interesting data model for hppacilon[1]?
20:48:01 <fungot> b_jonas: 00:07 fizzie fnord fizbancolin man neksh
20:48:08 <fungot> b_jonas: your point being?
20:48:16 <fungot> b_jonas: http://schematics.sourceforge.net/ guide/ lang/ lisp/ impl/ fnord
20:53:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45364&oldid=45363 * Hppavilion1 * (+2042) Δ commands
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20:59:31 <hppavilion[1]> Unicode needs Combinatorial Arrows instead of just a million arrowy codepoints
21:00:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45365&oldid=45364 * Hppavilion1 * (+421) /* Commands */ MORE Δ
21:01:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45366&oldid=45365 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* Commands */ Fixed formatting
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21:57:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45367&oldid=45366 * Hppavilion1 * (+386) /* Commands */ Concurrency
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22:09:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45368&oldid=45341 * 160.3.110.148 * (-16)
22:20:05 <izabera> terrorists in paris killed 18 people
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22:29:49 <izabera> just read another headline that bumped the count to 40
22:33:15 <FireFly> <hppavilion[1>⋯ Unicode needs Combinatorial Arrows instead of just a million arrowy codepoints ← I've always thought that a codepoint put between two characters to signify overstriking/combining would make sense
22:33:30 <FireFly> So instead of having combining everything, you could have a(combine)^ for â
22:33:56 <FireFly> Essentially what backspace did back in the day with overstriking, except a font is free to use its own glyph for a(combine)^ rather than just literally overstriking it
22:34:04 <FireFly> but overstriking could be used as a fallback
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23:21:44 <coppro> https://www.reddit.com/live/vwwmdb26t78v
23:31:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GamrCorps * New user account
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23:42:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mothership]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45369&oldid=45109 * GamrCorps * (+137)
23:48:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45370&oldid=45367 * Hppavilion1 * (+90) /* Commands */
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