00:00:00 <tswett> A "degenerate whatever" is something that's not actually a whatever, but is "on the edge", so to speak.
00:00:05 <hppavilion[1]> (though I've heard it argued that infinity=0 because the number line is a circle of infinite radius)
00:00:33 <hppavilion[1]> So a degenerate ellipse is either a line or a point? Infinitely large or infinitely small?
00:00:59 <int-e> or perhaps two parallel lines or a parabola
00:01:16 <MDude> I would think the number ine being a circle would jsut make infinity equal negative infinity.
00:01:32 <tswett> Yeah, I suppose there are a lot of kinds of degenerate ellipses.
00:01:34 <MDude> But I guess it depends on how you handle overflows?
00:02:07 <tswett> Take an ellipse and reduce its minor radius towards 0, and it approaches being a line segment.
00:02:22 <tswett> Increase its major radius towards infinity, and it approaches being two parallel lines.
00:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: It depends on whether infinity is equal to 2*infinity and the like.
00:02:54 <int-e> move one of its focal points towards infinity and you may get a parabola
00:02:55 <tswett> Do both, it approaches being a line.
00:03:12 <tswett> And yeah. Keep one focus where it is and move the other towards infinity, and it approaches being a parabola.
00:03:19 <hppavilion[1]> So a line is a degenerate parabola is a degenerate ellipse?
00:03:43 <tswett> And I guess a ray is a degenerate parabola, too.
00:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if there's a "god-formula" that produces something that isn't a degenerate anything xD
00:04:35 -!- HackEgo has joined.
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00:05:52 <hppavilion[1]> A superellipse being x**n/a**n+y**n/b**n=r**n where n>2, and a square being where n=infinity
00:05:53 <tswett> I guess given any sort of object, you could probably think of a way to see that object as a degenerate something.
00:06:06 <hppavilion[1]> You know what we need to invent and start selling? The Mathemetician's Keyboard
00:06:15 <tswett> Let me see if I can just visualize that from the formula.
00:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> A USB-based keyboard extension that has additional symbols on it
00:07:00 <tswett> Yeah, I can, more or less.
00:07:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: A superellipse is, colloquially an ellipse with squared corners. Not perefectly round.
00:07:32 <hppavilion[1]> And the higher n is, the squarier it gets, and eventually it is infinity
00:09:37 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a program that draws [uber]ellipses of the form x**n/a**m+y**o/b**p=r**q, where you can enter values for n, m, o, p, a, b, r, and q, but I don't know how to make a computer calculate those points short of brute force, which wouldn't work because of uncountable infinities and rounding errors and stuff
00:10:20 <tswett> There should be a few ways to do that.
00:10:26 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:10:57 <tswett> Two of them come to mind.
00:11:35 <hppavilion[1]> I could use SymPy, but that doesn't come with all python distributions and is a bit cheaty, I feel.
00:11:37 <tswett> Number one, you could turn that into... crap, what are they called.
00:12:46 <hppavilion[1]> Alternatively, I could use a generalization of my ellipse drawing equation (that \oren\_ helped me with, at least for theta rotation) that can do superellipses, but I wouldn't know where to start because I only discovered how to draw circles (and by extension, ellipses) by accidentally fumbling in Scratch.
00:13:00 <tswett> So then you'd just calculate r for a bunch of values of theta and plot them.
00:13:36 <hppavilion[1]> AND it doesn't have any exponentiation used in it, so I wouldn't know where to put m/n/o/p/q
00:13:42 <tswett> Start with a point, and project it onto the uberellipse somehow.
00:13:52 <tswett> Which, again, I can think of two ways to do.
00:13:57 <tswett> Then plot that point you just got.
00:13:59 <hppavilion[1]> I could, of course, just roll my own CAS if I were feeling up to it.
00:14:25 <tswett> Find the slope of the uberellipse at that point, move the point a little bit in that direction, project it again. Plot that.
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00:16:04 <tswett> You know, calculating a**m, b**p, and r**q won't really do anything. You'll just get a constant anyway.
00:16:43 <tswett> Now, as for projecting it onto the uberellipse?
00:16:52 <tswett> Just use a little bit of calculus, that's all...
00:17:23 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so, do you know what a derivative is?
00:17:57 <hppavilion[1]> It is, if I remember correctly, the slope of the plot of a function between two given points
00:18:17 <tswett> It's the slope of the plot of a function at *one* point.
00:18:17 <hppavilion[1]> Which are usually separated by an infinitessimal amount
00:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> I meant to imply with the second one, at least, that they are practically one point (but that that doesn't really work so we need two that behave as one)
00:19:08 <tswett> I think Newton and Leibniz thought of it as being the slope of the plot of the function between two points separated by an infinitesimal amount.
00:19:43 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That's what the snazzy wikipedia diagram I last saw a couple months back gave me the impression of.
00:19:57 <tswett> (Always infinitesimal, not just usually.)
00:20:52 <tswett> Problem is, nobody for the longest time could figure out how to make this infinitesimal thing work.
00:22:06 <tswett> Eventually someone, I don't remember who, came up with a new definition of the derivative that *did* work formally.
00:22:26 <hppavilion[1]> I know as such because they were named by conway and invented by knuth (or was it vice versa?)
00:24:57 <tswett> Something tells me the definition will probably make sense to you.
00:25:14 <tswett> Suppose I want to find the slope of the function f(x) = x^2 at x = 3.
00:25:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Barring Arithmetic of the Functia, whihc may or may not be a calculus and I don't know which it is)
00:25:56 <tswett> Well, if you calculate the slope between x = 3 and x = 4, you'll get an approximation. If you calculate the slope between x = 3 and x = 3.1, you'll get a better approximation. Between x = 3 and x = 3.001, a better approximation still.
00:26:21 <tswett> Take the limit as the distance between the two points approaches zero.
00:26:26 <tswett> And that's the derivative.
00:27:57 -!- sixtustha5 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
00:28:03 <tswett> In (more) symbols, it's the limit of (x^2 - 3^2)/(x - 3) as x approaches 3.
00:28:29 <tswett> Now... can you figure out what number that is?
00:29:15 <hppavilion[1]> More out of apathy and lack of necessity and lack of interesting name so far than due to not being smart enough xD
00:29:52 <tswett> You'd better understand it eventually; limits (in general, not just in the real numbers) turn out to be one of the most important concepts in higher mathematics. :D
00:30:17 <tswett> Essentially, the limit of a thing is whatever it is that that thing keeps getting closer to.
00:30:28 <hppavilion[1]> I google "Limit" and Duck Duck go suggests two (as well as a few other I didn't read) possibilities of what /kind/ of limit I was referring to in this order:
00:30:30 <tswett> Like, hey, consider this sequence: 4, 3.1, 3.01, 3.001, 3.0001, 3.00001, ...
00:31:01 <tswett> What do you figure the limit of that sequence is?
00:31:32 <tswett> 3.0...1 is definitely a natural guess, but it turns out that in the real numbers, there's no such thing.
00:31:48 <tswett> There are no infinitesimal real numbers, after all. Nor any infinite ones.
00:33:05 <tswett> Now, as for the limit of (x^2 - 3^2)/(x - 3) as x approaches 3...
00:33:10 <tswett> I dunno, can you figure out what that is?
00:35:51 <FireFly> Thanks to ECMA-48, my brain now reads BDSM as bidirectional support mode even though I know that's not what it means in most contexts :P
00:36:08 <FireFly> So maybe it's about limits in that!
00:36:29 <hppavilion[1]> for x=0, -9/-3=3, for x=1, 1-9/1-3=-8/-2=-4, for x=2 4-9/-1=-5/-1=5, so far I have made no progress because I was doing it wrong. Restarting
00:37:23 <tswett> How about for x = 3.00000001?
00:37:45 <hppavilion[1]> for x=2, 4-9/-1=-5/-1=5, for x=2.5, 6.25-9/-0.5=-3.25/-0.5=6.5
00:38:48 <tswett> By the way, do you know how to factor (x^2 - 3^2)?
00:40:50 <hppavilion[1]> For x=2.75, 2.75**2-9/-0.75=7.5625-9/-0.75=-2.5625/0.75~=-2.56/-0.75~=3.413
00:41:31 <hppavilion[1]> So x=2: 5, x=2.5: 6.5, x=2.75: 3.413. I made a mistake somewhere.
00:42:15 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: x**2-3**2 is a difference of two squares, so it's (x+3)(x-3)
00:42:53 <tswett> Right, so this expression is the same as (x + 3)(x - 3)/(x - 3).
00:42:59 <tswett> Is that expression equivalent to just (x + 3)?
00:43:22 <tswett> The first one is undefined at x = 3, the second one is not.
00:43:27 <tswett> But *apart* from that, yep.
00:43:56 <tswett> When we're taking the limit at 3, the expression's value at 3 doesn't matter.
00:44:02 <tswett> All that matters is its value *near* 3.
00:44:31 <tswett> So for all the values we're actually concerned about, (x + 3)(x - 3)/(x - 3) is equivalent to just (x + 3).
00:45:23 <hppavilion[1]> So Euclid now works in 3D, but it allows you to work in 2D with great simplicity; that is, though it's 3D, a 2D point can be specified that is equal to any 3D point that you wish
00:45:58 <tswett> And what's the limit of x + 3 as x approaches 3?
00:46:56 <tswett> I'm so impressed by your arithmetic skillz.
00:47:05 <tswett> So we've figured out that the derivative of the function f(x) = x^2 at x = 3 is 6.
00:47:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yay! Now I have a 0.001% advantage over everyone else in my future calculus (or maybe precalculus) classez!
00:48:22 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Are you curious about how I got a 2D geometry language working in a 3D space?
00:48:45 <hppavilion[1]> Or did you figure it out already because I might've already explained it? xD
00:48:48 <tswett> Yeah, I am. Something about specifying a plane (or some other surface, perhaps) in the 3D space?
00:49:21 <tswett> Now, people who know calculus almost never actually take derivatives that way. There are two much easier ways of doing it.
00:49:26 <tswett> Only one of which is taught in high school.
00:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> You just use the "plane" keyword, followed by the formula for a plane, and you change the plane that future shapes defined exist on. And it's still declarative, because it's really just syntactic sugar
00:49:53 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You aren't american, are you? Just wondering.
00:50:48 <hppavilion[1]> I was going to mention that it's american thanksgiving today for some reason. I don't know why.
00:50:58 <tswett> There's symbolic differentiation, where you apply a bunch of rules that they teach you in high school.
00:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> But only if you lived in a foreign country where you might not know. For some reason.
00:51:19 <tswett> Yup. I had the day off today for thanksgiving.
00:51:53 <tswett> I was actually planning to work today, but I changed my mind. :D
00:52:05 <tswett> The rules definitely aren't obvious.
00:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> Everyone should have a day off on thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is the american holiday I think all countries should have their own version of. It's a pleasant holiday.
00:52:26 <tswett> Although the rule for addition is pretty easy.
00:52:42 <tswett> Now, as you may know, the derivative of a function f is often called f'.
00:52:47 <tswett> Here's the addition rule:
00:52:56 <tswett> The derivative of f(x) + g(x) is f'(x) + g'(x).
00:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, you can ALSO sepecify a 2D shape on a plane /without/ changing hte default plane with "<shape> on plane <plane equation>"
00:53:27 <hppavilion[1]> I did know that. Or, well, that's the ASCIIized symbol for it.
00:53:39 <tswett> Yeah. The Unicode symbol is, uh, lemme rustle it up.
00:54:21 <tswett> Now, here's the product rule, in case you were wondering.
00:54:35 <tswett> The derivative of f(x) g(x) is f'(x) g(x) + f(x) g'(x).
00:55:13 <tswett> At some point in the future, you will look at that rule and say "well, yeah, duh."
00:55:53 <tswett> Anyway, the other method of differentiation.
00:55:59 <tswett> I think it's called automatic differentiation.
00:56:26 <tswett> Here's the idea. Take the real numbers, and add in a number called e, with the property that e^2 = 0.
00:56:39 <hppavilion[1]> Is that where you let Wolfram|Alpha do it for you? xD
00:57:13 <tswett> If you want to find the derivative of f at x, you start by evaluating f(x + e).
00:57:27 <tswett> So, how about the derivative of x^2 at x = 3?
00:58:10 <tswett> Start by evaluating (3 + e)^2 = 3^2 + 2(3)e + e^2 = 9 + 6e + e^2 = 9 + 6e.
00:58:21 <tswett> The derivative is the coefficient of e.
00:59:11 <tswett> And hey, guess what. It always works. At least... given any ordinary function on the real numbers.
01:00:33 <tswett> All right, how about the derivative of, I dunno, 5x^2 + 7x + 11? Plug in (x + e), and so you get 5(x + e)^2 + 7(x + e) + 11, which reduces as...
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01:00:54 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Is there a way to generalize the dual numbers for automatic differentiation so it works on complex functions? Or no?
01:01:38 <tswett> 5x^2 + 2(5)xe + 5e^2 + 7x + 7e + 11. Drop the e^2 term and factor out e, it's 5x^2 + 7x + 11 + (10x + 7)e.
01:01:47 <tswett> The derivative of 5x^2 + 7x + 11 is 10x + 7.
01:02:03 <tswett> To generalize to the complex numbers, I think you don't even need to do anything. Just use exactly the same method.
01:02:21 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, now we get polynomial/whatever-the-more-general-term-is derivatives. That looks fun.
01:02:40 <hppavilion[1]> Is automatic differentiation the one they never teach? If so, why the /fuck/ would they not teach us this?
01:02:55 <tswett> Well, in this particular case, symbolic differentiation would have been much easier.
01:03:12 <hppavilion[1]> Other than because making up new numbers is weird, and it's not like we've seen that kind of thing before.
01:03:27 <hppavilion[1]> It's not like they've /already/ taught me about i (though I already knew about it long before)
01:03:55 <tswett> I can do symbolic differentiation of that polynomial in my head in five seconds, because I know that the derivative of x^2 is 2x, the derivative of x is 1, and derivatives add together and multiply with constants nicely.
01:04:29 <tswett> Strangely, it turns out that calculus on the complex numbers is ultimately much *simpler* than calculus on the real numbers.
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01:04:52 <tswett> The reason for this is that all of the "nasty" cases in the real numbers are impossible to generalize to the complex numbers.
01:06:12 <tswett> In the complex numbers, if a function is differentiable at a point, then it is also differentiable on an entire disk surrounding that point, arbitrarily many times.
01:07:11 <tswett> Functions in the real numbers have no such property. A function can be differentiable just once. It can be differentiable at just one point!
01:10:28 <\oren\_> so regions of the plane where a complex function is differentiable can only be open sets?
01:16:09 <tswett> I honestly wonder if someone's going to see the output of `evil and actually take its advice.
01:16:18 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM.
01:16:30 <tswett> Like... all of its advice, not just the parts that aren't actually evil.
01:16:35 <tswett> That would be pretty bad.
01:16:37 <HackEgo> SEIZE IT AND THRUST IT TO THE GROUND.
01:16:45 <tswett> Because it's bad advice.
01:17:30 <tswett> And... y'know, harmful to other people if taken.
01:17:38 <HackEgo> YOUR ENEMIES ARE WEAK. YOU ARE STRONG. OVERCOME.
01:17:42 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM.
01:17:45 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM.
01:17:49 <HackEgo> PAIN IS NOTHING. PAIN CANNOT STOP YOU.
01:17:52 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM.
01:17:55 <HackEgo> COMPASSION. EMPATHY. MERE WEAKNESSES.
01:17:58 <tswett> There's not very much of it.
01:18:05 <HackEgo> 194 \ 295 \ 313 \ 455 \ 503 \ 602 \ 707 \ 714 \ 745 \ 960
01:18:14 <tswett> You've seen half of them.
01:19:02 <tswett> All right, let me take an extremely small vote, here.
01:19:08 <tswett> Should I add additional evil, or not?
01:20:02 -!- \oren\_ has changed nick to \oren\.
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01:22:01 <zzo38> I say yes, because there isn't enough and therefore it repeat too much. But, my opinion also is to instead use a larger database and then just add the category tag on as well, such as "evil" and so on.
01:22:18 <zzo38> (You could even have more than one per each; and you could use SQLite too)
01:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> There. Euler has 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 10, or 12 different ways to import things, depending on how you look at it. I think. Not sure I counted right.
01:23:44 <hppavilion[1]> You can do "import <module>", "import <module> and <module> and <module>, etc.", or a whole host of other things
01:24:10 <hppavilion[1]> Including importing from a module into an existing namespace with "<import statement> into <namespace>"
01:24:22 <hppavilion[1]> Now I have to go thanksgiving. I'll be back in a bit.
01:28:36 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia.
01:29:02 -!- quintopia has quit (Changing host).
01:29:02 -!- quintopia has joined.
01:30:25 <tswett> All right... the fuck am I doing? I'm seriously thinking someone could look at this stuff, think about it, and turn into a mass murderer.
01:32:06 <tswett> There. I deleted all of the evil advice except one.
01:32:07 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
01:32:25 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV
01:32:45 <tswett> If people come to HackEgo seeking evil advice, they will be told only to kill puppies.
01:33:11 <\oren\> derp derp derp dedederp derp derp dederp derp derp dedederp derp derp
01:33:28 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51bhB7EKHdQ
01:34:17 <HackEgo> 1021) <Tanea> ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets
01:35:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: good: not found
01:35:31 <tswett> `run echo 'cat "$(find good -type f | shuf -n1)"' > bin/good
01:36:25 <tswett> All right, someone give me a bunch of random 3-digit numbers.
01:36:40 <zzo38> Don't you have your own dice?
01:36:46 <tswett> 786 755 440 643 726 184 007 132 604 351. Thank you.
01:37:04 <tswett> `run echo 'Empathize. Always empathize.' > good/786
01:37:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/good: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/good: cannot execute: Permission denied
01:37:13 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/good
01:37:17 <HackEgo> Empathize. Always empathize.
01:37:33 <zzo38> Are you going to add AmigaMML into the list of software that is using tau instead of (or in addition to) pi?
01:38:31 <tswett> `run echo 'It takes strength to admit your own weaknesses.' > good/755
01:38:33 <zzo38> tswett: Still my opinion I think you should put all in one file and then make SQL query to select them (I have used ORDER BY RANDOM() LIMIT 1 to select entry at random; add the WHERE clause as well to select or deselect tags or other stuff
01:38:59 <tswett> But SQL is obsolete, man.
01:39:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:40:49 <tswett> `run echo 'Your friends are strong. Take their help.' > good/295
01:41:03 <tswett> I'm trying to think of a "good" suggestion corresponding to each "evil" suggestion.
01:41:30 <zzo38> Then maybe you should use the corresponding numbers too?
01:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, you realise you'll have to downcase `good for symmetry
01:42:34 <tswett> `run echo 'Feel wronged? They made a mistake. See things from their side, and forgive them.' > 503
01:42:39 <tswett> zzo38: I'm doing that.
01:43:53 <tswett> Hm. evil/503 and evil/960 are pretty similar; they'd pretty much have the same corresponding "good" suggestion.
01:46:04 <tswett> `run echo 'There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you've ever done. Find it anyway.' > good/544
01:46:04 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:46:21 <tswett> `run echo 'There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you'\''ve ever done. Find it anyway.' > good/544
01:51:33 <zzo38> In SQL you can just write '' for a single ' and you don't have to do like that instead (I think also in Pascal you can write '' for a single ' too, but I am not sure)
01:54:04 <tswett> Of course, I could have just used double quotes around the whole thing.
01:54:14 <tswett> But man, single quotes are so snazzy.
01:54:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember sam hughes tried to figure out how to quote a generic string in bash
01:54:43 <tswett> `run echo "I found $20 on the ground the other day."
01:54:44 <HackEgo> I found 0 on the ground the other day.
01:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> he concluded that you had to just put \ before every non-alphanumeric
01:55:27 <tswett> You're talking about the Canadian Minister of Militia and Defence during World War I, right?
01:55:42 <zzo38> If you use " in the shell scripts then it does other thing inside the quote too though anyways
01:57:50 <zzo38> (Such as the example above)
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02:04:12 <\oren\> `run echo I\ found\ \$20\ on\ the\ ground\ the\ other\ day
02:04:12 <HackEgo> I found $20 on the ground the other day
02:04:29 <\oren\> `run echo \"I\ found\ \$20\ on\ the\ ground\ the\ other\ day
02:04:30 <HackEgo> "I found $20 on the ground the other day
02:04:44 <\oren\> `run echo \"I\ found\ \$20\ on\ the\ ground\ the\ other\ day\"\ he\ said\.
02:04:45 <HackEgo> "I found $20 on the ground the other day" he said.
02:05:35 -!- ^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
02:07:02 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
02:07:06 <quintopia> print eval(chr(37).join([``'print eval(chr(37).join([``%s``]*2))[1:-1]'``]*2))[1:-1]
02:08:41 -!- andrew has joined.
02:15:41 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
02:18:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:26:56 <HackEgo> [U+5DE3 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5DE3]
02:28:24 -!- boily has joined.
02:32:53 <\oren\> `` unidecode 底府度庫庭康建式役径待徒得 | sed -e 's/\(\[\|CJK\ \|UNIFIED \|IDEOGRAPH-[0-9A-F]\+\]\)/'
02:32:54 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 50: unterminated `s' command \ close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr
02:33:00 <\oren\> `` unidecode 底府度庫庭康建式役径待徒得 | sed -e 's/\(\[\|CJK\ \|UNIFIED \|IDEOGRAPH-[0-9A-F]\+\]\)//'
02:33:01 <HackEgo> U+5E95 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5E95] [U+5E9C CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5E9C] [U+5EA6 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EA6] [U+5EAB CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EAB] [U+5EAD CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EAD] [U+5EB7 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EB7] [U+5EFA CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EFA] [U+5F0F CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5F0F] [U+5F79 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5F79] [U+5F84 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRA
02:33:05 <\oren\> `` unidecode 底府度庫庭康建式役径待徒得 | sed -e 's/\(\[\|CJK\ \|UNIFIED \|IDEOGRAPH-[0-9A-F]\+\]\)//g'
02:33:06 <HackEgo> U+5E95 U+5E9C U+5EA6 U+5EAB U+5EAD U+5EB7 U+5EFA U+5F0F U+5F79 U+5F84 U+5F85 U+5F92 U+5F97
02:36:13 <boily> he\\oren\. still kanjifying your font?
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02:43:59 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm making a usable programming language based on geometry!
02:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sEyRHE3CLyVNwrkh-jsL32MIhtrdUjZ7WMVV8MAd2Kw/edit?usp=sharing
02:48:09 <newsham> hppavilion[1]: too late. euclid alreayd did it.
02:48:32 <hppavilion[1]> newsham: The language is /called/ Euclid, so yeah xD
02:48:55 <newsham> but this other language was /made by/ euclid
02:54:42 <hppavilion[1]> newsham: Yes, but it can't be used to make a computer say "Hello, World"
02:56:31 <newsham> "H" has two parallel segments and a perpendicular segment between them
02:56:36 <newsham> I think we could construct this :)
02:56:45 <newsham> I don't see much more challenging in "ello, World"
02:58:15 <hppavilion[1]> newsham: Yes, but can Euclid's system to asyncronous socketry?
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03:00:28 <boily> fungot: is your socketry asynchronous?
03:00:28 <fungot> boily: if gdb doesn't work on paragraph answers to your questions as useful?
03:00:46 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Design question: When sets or vectors have an operation performed on them, they have special meanings where it's the operation done on each item in them relative to the other value. I want to have special operators marked that don't behave like this, namely </>/>=/<=/=/!= for sets, but I also want the normal meaning to be available. How should I go about this? My current best idea is to specially mark the operators with a symbol,
03:00:46 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. the $ prefix or a . suffix. What do you think, as a randomly selected opinion?
03:02:06 <boily> pointwise operators from Matlab, eg with vectors u and v, u .* v will produce pointwise multiplication of them.
03:02:40 <hppavilion[1]> But I want to use typable characters for subset/superset/etc, and <> seem like the ideal characters.
03:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> But unless there's some sneaky but logical workaround, the only way to make it work is with a special marker in the operator name
03:03:13 <boily> "c" for subset. ɔ might be harder to get :P
03:03:36 <boily> (and of course c̄ for proper subset.)
03:03:59 <boily> but enough silliness, I'm yawning my jaw off. time to sleep.
03:04:00 <hppavilion[1]> boily: But that's not easily typable, unless you're in the future using the Mathematician's Keyboard that I'm going to make someone start selling
03:04:23 <newsham> at least i'm not aware of any ancient greek socket implementation
03:04:25 <boily> you may want to check out the space cadet keyboard :D
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03:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> Which may or may not have killed the cat. Not the Nyan Cat, though.
03:35:33 <hppavilion[1]> What should I use for the ASCII midpoint operator?
03:35:55 <hppavilion[1]> Currently I'm using _|_, but that looks like perpendicular and, more importantly, is stupid
03:36:04 <hppavilion[1]> For that matter, what should I use for the unicode midpoint operator?
03:42:06 <\oren\> what's a midpoint operator?
03:42:34 <HackEgo> [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+0304 COMBINING MACRON]
03:47:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: In Euclid, it's a unary operator that accepts a line and returns the point at the midpoint of the line
03:50:07 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it doesn't accept a line, it accepts a segment
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03:51:10 <hppavilion[1]> I need a term that encompasses lines, rays, and segments
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03:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: How about a symbol for perpendicular in ASCII?
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03:54:27 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Don't think it can have letters, and I'd avoid underscores
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04:13:14 <\oren\> added some kanji and ⇜⇝⇞⇟ which were missing from the arrows block
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04:37:56 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Miscellaneous Mathematical Symbols B is missing, in case you weren't aware
04:38:20 <hppavilion[1]> At least, RULE-DELAYED and REVERSE SOLIDUS WITH HORIZONTAL STROKE are.
04:39:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out where to go with Euclid to keep it nearly fully declarative like Haskell is...
04:39:34 <hppavilion[1]> Obviously, IO is a problem for declarativeness, but I'll deal with that.
04:39:49 <hppavilion[1]> Well, I guess it's only a BIG problem for functional languages
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06:27:37 <zzo38> Do you think my "Eldritch Veil" card should have shroud?
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07:34:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't really understand Eldritch Veil. What is that useful for, except for controlling another player?
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07:40:46 <b_jonas> argh, stupid unusable webpage
07:43:47 <zzo38> That was one of my intentions yes; I don't know if that makes it overpowered. But there is other possibility too if sacrificing something can help you to win before it resolves, or maybe just use with affinity, or whatever something else
07:44:38 <zzo38> I think it is not too much overpower since you will need some other cards too but I am not quite sure. If it had shroud though then you cannot target it with Donate or whatever.
07:45:59 <zzo38> Some of the card I put favor texts now do you like that one, or other comment/suggestion even of the newer cards?
07:46:34 <b_jonas> but isn't there already some artifact for this that has more uses?
07:47:30 <b_jonas> "win before it resolves" -- that is VERY unlikely
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07:55:58 <b_jonas> there are already lots of artifacts for {0} if you only need them for affinity: Accorder's Shield (an equipment from M14), Bone Saw (inverse Shuko from Conflux), Darksteel relic (a useless artifact from NPH), Everflowing Chalice (mana producer), Fountain of Youth, |Herbal Poultice, Kite Shield (another equipment), Lodestone Bauble (bauble means it lets you draw a card), \
07:59:07 <zzo38> Yes, it is unlikely I suppose, I don't know if it need to be changed at all actually
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08:00:08 <b_jonas> Lodestone Bauble (bauble means it lets you draw a card), Memnite (the 1/1 creature), Mishra's Bauble (this one is expensive, but also the best bauble), Ornithopter, Phyrexian Walker, Shield Sphere (a useful wall), Sigil of Distinction (an equipment that's useless for {0}), \
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08:03:27 <b_jonas> Spellbook, Spidersilk Net (wow so many equipments), Tormod's Crypt (this one is famous and got reprinted a lot, used against graveyard-related decks), Urza's Bauble (almost as good as Mishra's, but cheap), Welding Jar (this is even sort of useful in an affinity deck, though not as useful as many artifacts for {1} or {2}), Zuran's Orb.
08:03:50 <b_jonas> Wow, I didn't know there were so many. The only one I currently own in my collection are Ornithopter.
08:04:13 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should invent our own M:tG-like card game
08:05:17 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I was thinking of a nethack-themed one sort of, which I could call “Nethack: the Card Game”
08:05:18 <hppavilion[1]> Possibly a lot of programming jokes, perhaps even build programming into the card game
08:05:20 <b_jonas> I have some ideas but I couldn't get it to work reasonably yet.
08:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> ("foo" would be a morphic card, which does something morphy)
08:06:00 <b_jonas> Yes, nethack gives all the memes.
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08:08:10 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: head over to #nethack or #nethack4 and ask there
08:08:10 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What should the data model of this card game be? xD
08:08:48 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, esocards should definitely feature Nomicy goodness
08:09:13 <b_jonas> what do you mean by "data model"?
08:09:32 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What is the flow of "information" within the card game?
08:10:33 <hppavilion[1]> I've never played one of those trading card games, so it'll probably come out horribly xD
08:10:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I don't really know enough about that card game yet. I have problems with the basic workings and base rules, not the individual cards.
08:11:24 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jja2U09wCrBVdGJxtiNBjCd9N8fE1mjDvNhN8eyDaLE/edit?usp=sharing is where I'm compiling ideas, if you happen to think of anything
08:12:31 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the hypothetical Nethack: the Card Game
08:13:32 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, were you confused by "what is the flow of \"information\" within the card game"? That was me explaining what I meant by data model within a card game
08:13:36 <b_jonas> wait, did you mean M:tG or some other trading card game (Pokémon TCG, Yu Gi Oh, etc, there are a lot these days)
08:14:39 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I meant the card game I'm starting work on right now and am likely never going to finish, more than likely abandoning within a few days at most
08:15:37 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you decide the name LAST
08:16:00 <b_jonas> after you know what the game is like
08:16:00 <b_jonas> until then, a development codename is fine
08:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Well yes, but it's priority 1, meaning as soon as it's possible to name it's the highest priority
08:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> Renaming is always an option, unless it happens to get incredibly popular and it stops being an option
08:16:41 <b_jonas> if you don't like "esocards" as a development codename, just take a random name from some epic fiction that has tons of named characters.
08:16:41 <b_jonas> don't choose a popular name like "Athena" which has hundreds of things named of them
08:17:15 <b_jonas> seriously, I don't get why people still keep naming everything Athene or Athena
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08:20:38 <hppavilion[1]> So one of my ideas is that you need to have a moderate-to-advanced understanding of computer science to play at an effective level xD
08:20:46 <b_jonas> (Mind you, Mr. Orbán's government naming everything from Széchenyi István is also bad. I'm especially pissed off by the jerk move where they renamed Roosevelt tér (in Budapest).)
08:22:45 <b_jonas> I mean, Pallas Athene already has a freaking city and a noble metal named of him, isn't that enough?
08:22:45 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: what? to play what?
08:24:28 <b_jonas> oh, you want such a card game? why not just take Lambda: the Gathering for that?
08:24:32 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering
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08:25:36 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: That works, but I feel like spending some time and attempting to develop my own. A needlessly complicated one at that.
08:25:47 <hppavilion[1]> With data structures and semi-thue systems and shit
08:28:06 <hppavilion[1]> It could be used, not as a gentle introduction to computer science, but as a deep-immersion introduction. Like going to France to learn French.
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13:03:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: HNQ: not found
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13:08:11 <HackEgo> word/word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.
13:08:15 <HackEgo> wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
13:08:19 <HackEgo> thausiblee/A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.
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13:47:58 <oerjan_> wat, is every freenode server flaky today
13:48:29 <oerjan_> i guess that explains the huge log, it's probably all netsplits
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14:04:17 <oerjan> Lag: 166, it's probably happening again
14:04:29 <myname> does anybody know if there is a rulebook based on an oots-based system?
14:04:31 <myname> i'd just love to play belkar
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14:06:13 <oerjan> myname: i thought oots was officially D&D 3.5
14:07:44 <myname> i'm not sure if i'd be happy with that :D
14:07:53 <myname> in my pov, dnd seems to be an american thing
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14:55:34 <\oren\> infamy! who would dare?!?!
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14:57:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45680&oldid=45649 * Luis Mendo * (+226) /* Specification */
14:58:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45681&oldid=45680 * Luis Mendo * (+8) /* Compiler */
15:05:32 <HackEgo> sixtustha51: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:13:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45682&oldid=45681 * Luis Mendo * (+1) /* Specification */
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15:42:51 <Taneb> The FSA I posted yesterday is incorrect...
15:43:11 <Taneb> (OS, 5) should go to OI, not OO
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16:00:17 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> In the complex numbers, if a function is differentiable at a point, then it is also differentiable on an entire disk surrounding that point, arbitrarily many times. <-- i don't think that's quite right... you need in a disk to start with.
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17:18:47 <coppro> oerjan: I think that works if f is continuous
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17:20:12 <b_jonas> now if the function is _twice_ differentiable in a point, that might be enough
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17:37:31 <oerjan> b_jonas: if it's twice differentiable, then by definition, it must be differentiable in a neighborhood, so yeah.
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17:40:28 <oerjan> coppro: even with continuity, there's just too many ways you could mess it up in a neighboorhood. or put a different way, you can "obviously" make a function that has derivative 0 in a point, but completely chaotic (apart from being continuous) near it.
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17:42:12 <oerjan> hm, i think abs(z)^2 is an example (not chaotic, but not differentiable near it either)
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17:43:10 <oerjan> (it's _real_ differentiable everywhere, off course.)
17:44:38 <oerjan> being the same a z * conj(z)
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17:51:57 <Taneb> http://arin.ga/4XHhbc is quite possibly the most elegant-looking fizzbuzz I have written
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17:57:08 <zzo38> Second Bargain {2W} Instant ;; Target opponent draws a card. ;; You gain 8 life if it is your main phase and there aren't any other objects on the stack, otherwise you gain 5 life.
17:58:23 <Taneb> It also runs in O(n log n) time, which is much more efficient than other fizzbuzz programs I have written
18:00:11 <oerjan> i guess technically that's optimal, because the output has O(n log n) length
18:01:48 <Taneb> Hmm, that is a good point
18:01:50 <oerjan> s/O/Theta/ or something
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18:15:47 <zzo38> The official "Bargain" card isn't quite good so I made up this new one is better? What is your opinion of such thing?
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18:21:09 <coppro> 2WW gain 8 life would probably be about fair, maybe 3W
18:21:28 <coppro> and even that would be a weak card
18:22:47 <zzo38> I changed it to an instant rather than a sorcery, and if used as a sorcery you gain 1 additional life point (otherwise you gain less)
18:25:00 <zzo38> I would still use it though
18:26:20 <zzo38> But do you think there are other changes? Even if other than how you specify?
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18:29:37 <zzo38> I think this "Second Bargain" is much better than the ordinary "Bargain"
18:31:46 <zzo38> (But I am also the guy who would play something like "Fateseal 1, and then target opponent draws a card")
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19:19:27 <b_jonas> coppro: unplayably bad in limited or constructed?
19:19:36 <b_jonas> it's life gain, so there's a big difference
19:21:02 <b_jonas> As for lifegain, I prefer black's method. Drain life from opponent or from a creature.
19:27:00 <b_jonas> It's funny to see mathematics from 1992 typeset in TeX in the computer modern font, but with professionally hand-drawn figures
19:35:59 <zzo38> I also want to know, it can be different in limited or constructed, as well as other stuff I think
19:37:21 <zzo38> Also this new one is forcing opponent to draw a card as an instant, while the old one is not an instant.
19:38:16 <zzo38> However I made up several more new cards too. Some of which now have favor texts and/or notes too.
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20:10:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: to compare, there's an instant for 2WW that gains you 7 life, and an instant for 2W that gains you 6 life and has an advantage.
20:11:08 <b_jonas> I don't know about lifegain cards with serious drawbacks though.
20:11:49 <b_jonas> Oh, I mean, I do know about some. I'm happy to sacrifice my infinite toughness creature to gain infinite life from it.
20:13:02 <b_jonas> I use Animal Boneyard and Starlit Sanctum for that
20:17:09 <b_jonas> let me see what else I could use for that slot. I have a Condemn, but that only works while attacking, which restricts my options.
20:18:35 <zzo38> Note that there are many different formats, not only Constructed and Limited but even many different kind of Limited formats such as Draft, Rochester Draft, Team Rochester Draft, Sealed, Duplicate Sealed, etc. And then, there is duel decks designing
20:18:40 <b_jonas> there's an aura called Death Watch
20:19:19 <zzo38> OK I looked at that; I like that too
20:19:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, I said "limited or constructed" because life gain cards like that are famously very bad in limited and only somewhat bad in constructed
20:19:59 <b_jonas> the advantage of Death Watch is that it works on any creature (not only clerics) and has a low mana cost, but the serious drawback is that it's off-color
20:20:15 <b_jonas> that deck must use white to get the infinite toughness creature
20:21:44 <b_jonas> oh, but the problem with Death Watch is that if I put it to the creature, then my opponents won't kill that creature that turn, so I won't actually gain the life
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20:23:36 <zzo38> How bad it is can also depend on circumstances though. Death Watch can be good but it is not an instant (although you may be able to cause it to trigger as an instant)
20:24:23 <b_jonas> it won't work, because I can't kill the creature. or at least, I can kill it by sacrificing it to another card to gain life, but then I don't need the aura
20:24:50 <b_jonas> there's this Disciple of Griselbrand
20:25:22 <b_jonas> which has the advantage that it's a cleric
20:25:33 <b_jonas> and works at instant speed
20:26:01 <b_jonas> let me see what else there is
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20:29:38 <b_jonas> There's this strange card called Life Chisel, which is surprisingly cheap (card price) given that it's an Antiquities uncommon, with the drawback that it works only in the upkeep so it restricts my options to the Kors as opposed to Shuko, and also costs {4} which is too much.]
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20:31:16 <b_jonas> there's this so called Miren, the Moaning Well which activates for {3} but otherwise is good, but it's a somewhat pricy rare
20:32:26 <b_jonas> Proper Burial triggers when the creature dies, so it's like Death Watch, but it's for {3W}
20:34:04 <b_jonas> There's Sheltering Word which is interesting because it is of dual use: I can use it either to protect my creature, or to gain life, either of which is useful in this deck.
20:34:59 <zzo38> Play all-colors deck
20:35:18 <b_jonas> no. this one definitely can't work all colors.
20:35:33 <b_jonas> it might work in two colors, maybe, but even that would strain it.
20:36:15 <b_jonas> Oh, and Worthy Cause! I actually use that in the deck and I forgot.
20:37:05 <b_jonas> Ok, then it seems there's nothing better for this really. I just need to buy more copies of Worthy Cause and of Nomads En-Kor.
20:37:29 <b_jonas> Plus replace the few cards that aim to win after I go off with infinite life.
20:38:07 <b_jonas> In particular, Elixir of Immortality had not yet been printed when I made that deck, so I have much worse replacements.
20:41:05 <b_jonas> Oh, and four of the two mana Kor too, probably, if I don't have four yet.
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20:45:08 <b_jonas> Hmm, let me check how many I have of each of the cards. I think I have 1 Worthy cause, 4 Starlit Sanctum, dunno how many Animal Boneyard, 1 Nomads en-Kor, at least one Warrior en-Kor, 4 Shuko, 4 of that cleric thingy, and
20:45:24 <b_jonas> oh, and I have to buy these newfangled newly printed cards that are like the cleric but for cheaper
20:45:47 <b_jonas> I have some other old one, but I think I've looked at the new ones for that slot and they're better.
20:46:52 <zzo38> Another format can be duel decks with a duplicate sealed sideboard which may be swapped in before the game is started
20:47:27 <b_jonas> I make an infinite mana deck based on Krosan Restorer, and later they print the much better Arbor Elf and now a two mana version too.
20:48:35 <b_jonas> I build a deck based on two creatures that can block any number of creatures (Wall of Glare and Ironfist Crusher) and later they printed multiple cheaper white creatures where that ability was priced lower.
20:49:32 <b_jonas> And I build this infinite toughness deck with Daru Spiritualist and whatever the other similar creature is, and they print a better one.
20:50:09 <zzo38> Do you like any of my rule/format variant? Or if you have suggestions for changing the "Traitor Scheming" game if you think there is something wrong with it
20:50:28 <b_jonas> Maybe if I want a better version of any card printed, I just need to build a combo deck with it and then wait ten years?
20:50:37 <b_jonas> less than ten years really
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20:51:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: where's this Traitor Scheming game described?
20:54:38 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/traitor_scheming.var
20:55:35 <zzo38> (Currently it doesn't work on HTTP due to filename extension and I am not sure how to fix it. If you know how to make everything there just text/plain then you can tell me please, it can work with both HTTP and Gopher then)
20:56:44 <b_jonas> I might be able to help with the Apache thing, but I'll check it out from Gopher for now I think
20:58:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: is the 0 part of the url?
20:59:00 <b_jonas> but maybe gopher urls work that way
20:59:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but it is the type code and is not a part of the selector string. If you are using raw connections, omit the 0
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21:00:09 <zzo38> In any software that uses URLs, the 0 should be required; omit the 0 if you are not using a URL
21:02:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for the apache, edit your apache configuration file (or .htaccess file if the apache config allows that) to add (possibly only for some directories) either "AddType text/plain .var" or "DefaultType text/plain" or "ForceType text/plain"
21:03:58 <zzo38> I did the last one in .htaccess and that changed the icons but did not prevent the error. I will try the second one too to see if it works, although I do want text/plain for everything under the textfile directory and its subdirectories (but not other directories).
21:04:30 <zzo38> No, it doesn't work
21:05:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: you may need to change your main apache config then
21:06:34 <zzo38> It clearly does recognize "ForceType text/plain" because it is changing the icons for all of the files to the text files icon
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21:07:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: does AddType work? if not, find the AllowOverride line in your main apache config and can you tell me what it says?
21:07:21 <b_jonas> there maybe more than one, directory specific.
21:08:16 <zzo38> AllowOverride All for /var/www/
21:08:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: and no other options? hmm
21:08:54 <zzo38> Actually, I now added: RemoveHandler .var to the same /var/www/textfile/.htaccess file after ForceType text/plain and now it works.
21:09:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: have you checked if there's something in the error logs about config file errors when you restart apache and then load ...
21:09:42 <b_jonas> indeed it works on http now
21:10:06 <b_jonas> I have 3 Worthy Cause, 4 Starlit Sanctum, 4 Animal Boneyard,
21:23:38 <J_Arcane> A fun solution for the Clojure threading macros in Heresy: https://github.com/jarcane/heresy/blob/f58415a79fd9ec78e5f16eeeb79b3e8efa845e82/examples/pipeland.hsy
21:27:13 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of game? It is the Archenemy game but no shared team turns are used and there might be one traitor. If the scheming player receives a traitor card then he knows that he plays alone but other player don't know. If all players receive blank card, then nobody knows until the game is finished.
21:30:20 <b_jonas> 4 Daru Spiritualist, 1 Warrior en-Kor, 4 Outrider en-Kor, (4 Palace Guard which is the card they printed later than I made the Wall of Glare deck),
21:33:35 <b_jonas> 4 Task Force, 4 Spirit en-Kor, 4 Lancers en-Kor (these expensive ones aren't useful for this deck of course).
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21:35:39 <b_jonas> Didn't I have Icatian Javeliners though?
21:35:47 <b_jonas> I don't need it for a deck, just find it strange
21:37:52 <b_jonas> quintopia: what about werewolves?
21:39:02 <zzo38> What's this about werewolf?
21:39:56 <b_jonas> what werewolf? all I see is a well-reputed scientist. no werewolf here. not even at full moon.
21:40:30 <izabera> did you know that /r/incest exists?
21:41:16 <b_jonas> (Homicidal Brute isn't a werewolf)
21:42:20 <b_jonas> (nor is Delver of Secrets)
21:48:11 <nvd> izabera: I did not but I do not think I am much surprised
21:49:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: re traitor variant, interesting. I've played or seen some games with hidden roles and they're often interesting: mafia, the card game version of whatever that western themed game is called, the gold miners card game.
21:53:50 <zzo38> Napoleon card game is a trick game with ordinary playing cards, where the declarer names a card and whoever holds that card is the declarer's partner; other players do not know who is his partner until the card is played (even the declarer doesn't know, unless he names a card he holds and therefore plays alone), although for example if he says six of diamonds and another player fails to follow diamonds they can know he isn't them
21:55:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh yes, there's that too
21:57:43 <b_jonas> four-player Snapszer, a trick game with cards has that mechanic
21:58:40 <b_jonas> play with the top 24 cards, deal 6 to each, declarer calls card from first 3, that card decides his partner and its color is the trump color
21:59:13 <b_jonas> (this isn't meant as a complete spec)
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22:03:04 <hppavilion[1]> And the only place I put my gmail password was Bluestacks, which I thought was safe because I had friends who used it
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22:05:20 <b_jonas> let me see what the newer cards with an ability like Daru Spiritualist and Task Force were.
22:06:15 <hppavilion[1]> So hopefully they didn't harvest all my contacts and start sending them spam, possibly even from my account
22:06:43 <b_jonas> There's an old card Angelic Protector but that's not better than those two.
22:07:47 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a trading card game mixed with an actualy, WoW-like (that is, moving a character around) RPG would be interesting. Then again, that's probably been done a million times.
22:08:56 <b_jonas> There's Horobi, Death's Wail which is really interesting (even if black)
22:09:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45683&oldid=42295 * 162.231.140.49 * (+3731)
22:10:20 <b_jonas> for a different deck, and the Kors and Shuko won't target creatures the opponent controls, but I think there are other nice options for triggering Horobi
22:11:47 <hppavilion[1]> 1) Insert-based editing. You don't have to hit backspace to change characters
22:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> 2) ctrl-<arrow> changes the direction the insert cursor moves when you hit keys
22:12:23 <zzo38> I have thought of a idea of a kind of game with both the card and with board with pieces that can be moved, but this idea of game is probably too complicated to do without computer
22:12:33 <zzo38> (Based on something I dreamt)
22:12:52 <b_jonas> oh, there is a free way too: Martyrdom
22:16:09 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll incorporate so many different game-type features into Esocards that it's impossible for a normal human being to understand the true state of the game. THAT is my goal.
22:17:04 <zzo38> Actually mine has many differences including hex grid and possibly one cell you might know what is there but opponent doesn't know, and the state of one individual cell is also complicated
22:17:38 <b_jonas> hmm, strange. apaprently there's no more of this kind
22:17:39 <hppavilion[1]> What's the name for that set of shapes that infinitely tiles the plane without ever reapeating?
22:18:11 <b_jonas> Angelic Protector and the two I have are the only ones it seems
22:18:25 <b_jonas> I thought they printed another one or two
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22:19:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45684&oldid=45683 * Hppavilion1 * (+54) Alternative to suicide
22:19:57 <b_jonas> Index was reprinted in M13? oh right, I think I noticed this already, and was surprised about it already.
22:20:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What if we were to make a tesselational-position board game that used Penrose Tiling as its board form?
22:20:38 <zzo38> (This board game I was describing is "Slugterra Hex Game")
22:20:48 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: You can try that, OK
22:21:30 <zzo38> How is pieces movement then? Just to cells sharing an edge, or what if you want to do like chess with rook, bishop, knight, etc?
22:22:39 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: That's the problem. I don't think Chess could be done normally; you'd have to invent new pieces with more penrosian mathematical properties
22:22:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: but which Penrose tiling? there's a continuum many of them. would you use a fixed one, or one chosen randomly at the start of each game?
22:23:09 <b_jonas> (obviously less than continuum many if you have a bounded size game board)
22:23:14 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Probably a randomly-selected one, fitting certain rules if necessary.
22:24:17 <zzo38> Yes, it could be a kind of chess variant based on such Penrose geometry.
22:24:50 <hppavilion[1]> Alternatively, I might use a fixed one for simplicity
22:25:01 <b_jonas> they are all very similar of course, so it's like Agent Smith
22:25:13 <hppavilion[1]> But it would still have randomness featured: a fixed tiling, but not always the same part
22:25:25 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Not just a chess variant; I think I'm going to add this to Esocards
22:25:39 <b_jonas> um, I mean Agent Smith in the sequel, when he plays Mirror Entity
22:27:04 <zzo38> OK do it that way then.
22:28:14 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: different tilings, or different parts of the same infinite or very large tiling, that's practically the same thing for a finite game
22:28:59 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Practically, except that different parts of the same tiling will still fit some sort of pattern, even if it's not periodic
22:30:30 <hppavilion[1]> You can execute spells, which are basically just a command prompt, by typing into the command prompt
22:30:35 <b_jonas> yes, but all those different tilings are compatible and any bounded part of one can be found in any other tiling anyway, so that's already true.
22:31:09 <hppavilion[1]> Additionally, the game has a central Semi-thue system that modifies spells before they are executed. The STS affects all players. May only hold temporarily.
22:32:09 <hppavilion[1]> So, one of the things you can do with the STS (however you modify it) is add a rule that erases certain words from spells, thus limiting that for all players.
22:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> I suspect that spells will be stack-based and cease executing when they encounter nonsense
22:33:39 <hppavilion[1]> So, you can declare that the element earth, for example (it may not actually be a cheesy four-elements thing in the final game) can't be use by using "earth::=" when prompted to enter a rule
22:33:55 <hppavilion[1]> (It will /obviously/ be a cheesy 12-elements thing)
22:34:28 <hppavilion[1]> By preventing players from using earth, you effectively limit yourself and your opponent from using roughly 1/4 of available spells.
22:35:58 <hppavilion[1]> Which may be good for your strategy if you don't rely on earth, but you may later be in a bind when using earth may've been useful (e.g. stuck underground, wishing you hadn't blocked yourself from using earth so that you could cast the Inverse Jesus ("Landswimming") spell)
22:37:06 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What do you think of that? Semi-thue systems in a videogame.
22:38:49 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh oooh, additionally, semi-thue system rules are applied in a random order, so I figure that when you get the chance to add a new rule, you can add a spell that turns "foo" into "earth" and thus reenable your ability to use earth by typing "foo". However, since the rules are applied randomly, it would only work 50% of the time.
22:42:09 <hppavilion[1]> Even better, you'd be able to tell it that certain rules are prioritized above others, but it isn't exact and is kind of pricy
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23:14:43 <tswett> @tell oerjan So can you give a counterexample to my assertion that if a function is differentiable at a point, then it's also differentiable on a disc surrounding that point?
23:16:19 <mauris> tswett: multiply any everywhere-continuous-but-nowhere-differentiable function f(x) by x^2 and you're done
23:16:39 <mauris> (the result is differentiable only at x=0 and nowhere else)
23:16:51 <int-e> tswett: sin(1/x^2)*x^2 around 0 is sort of standard
23:17:38 <tswett> I don't think that works. I think in the complex numbers, that's not differentiable at 0.
23:17:54 <int-e> tswett: it surely is
23:18:00 <tswett> It's not even continuous at 0.
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23:18:46 <int-e> ah, you have a point there
23:18:59 <tswett> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%281%2Fx^2%29*x^2+where+x+%3D+0.0001+sqrt%28i%29
23:20:19 <int-e> anyway I didn't know it was supposed to be for complex numbers and mauris' idea is valid anyway
23:20:56 <int-e> (I could've dwelled a bit longer on the term "disk" before translating it to "interval" though)
23:21:47 <tswett> On the complex numbers, f(z) = |z|^2 is differentiable nowhere.
23:22:08 <tswett> Umm, lemme think about that.
23:23:28 <tswett> That actually sounds right.
23:25:13 <tswett> Limit of |z|^2/z near z = 0? Well, |z| is z/sgn(z), making that z^2/(z sgn(z)^2), which reduces to z/sgn(z)^2.
23:25:53 <tswett> Yup, I think you're right.
23:28:56 <zzo38> Can you please tell me how to install the new SQLite on this Ubuntu? I ask them how to do but they won't tell me how.
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23:32:05 <int-e> . o O ( curl http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/amd64/autobuilds/20150924/install-amd64-minimal-20150924.iso | dd of=/dev/sda )
23:33:04 <tswett> `run curl http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/amd64/autobuilds/20150924/install-amd64-minimal-20150924.iso | dd of=/dev/sda
23:33:06 <HackEgo> dd: opening `/dev/sda': Read-only file system \ Failed to connect to socket 2. \ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
23:33:36 <hppavilion[1]> Stack Magic seems like it'll be an interesting language
23:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should base it on a subset of the actual elements and call them the classical elements xD
23:35:18 <int-e> (The source of that command was this hilarious experiment, https://www.twitchinstalls.com/ )
23:44:57 <izabera> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/121502/ending-a-declarative-statement-with-a-question-mark is this irritating?
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23:54:15 <int-e> izabera: I don't know what you mean?
23:54:33 <izabera> do people find it irritating?
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23:55:25 <int-e> I certainly wouldn't use a question mark there. (Except ironically, obviously?)
23:55:26 <izabera> seriously i'm not a native speaker and i see it quite often but my point of view may be skewed
23:56:42 <int-e> I think if it's not a question then it shouldn't have a question mark. However, given that text is a rather limiting medium, in interactive use (on IRC and the like), I can understand using it to convey some level of uncertainty. I suspect I've done that as well.
23:57:56 <tswett> I think I tend to do that.
23:58:04 <tswett> "I guess it's, like, some sort of... coin or something?"
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23:58:38 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/*yzz*
23:58:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/qzyzzalroum wisdom/xyzzy
23:58:46 <HackEgo> You should start the crossword over.