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00:03:58 <izabera> does anyone here use/have used apache lucene?
00:06:00 <fungot> boily_: first made it fnord, and do it
00:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> I need a unicode symbol to represent the "DNA" of an instruction poiner
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00:15:47 <\oren\_> I'm considering changing my s
00:17:56 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/torture/ is a strange URL
00:21:09 <\oren\_> http://www.orenwatson.be/esses.png <-- which one is best?
00:22:34 <\oren\_> Ok, I'll adopt 3 in the next release
00:42:13 <\oren\_> Hmm, that didn't take as long as I thought. I guess there aren't many esses with accents.
00:42:34 <\oren\_> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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00:49:10 <boily_> he\\oren\_. is it possible to "squish" the s even more? like an hypothetical version 4?
00:55:06 <\oren\_> That would be identical to the small caps I think.
00:56:04 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\_: You're not supposed to spell letter names hth.
00:56:21 <hppavilion[1]> (notice me fumblingly inserting "hth" into a post)
00:56:22 <\oren\_> also it wouldn't flow into preceding and following ess.
00:56:36 <\oren\_> also it wouldn't flow into letters preceding and following ess
00:57:09 <\oren\_> see clusters like ls st ts sz etc
00:57:15 <boily_> hppavilion[1]: we all went through our first hth hth
00:58:18 <hppavilion[1]> If I were to make Strongly-Typed Setter, would someone who's even remotely good at font design (unlike me) be willing to design ASCII and a ~few choice characters for the font using some form of vector font design program I'd hack together?
00:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> I would need to make custom fonts for some of the higher-level features, such as cursive
00:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> I couldn't just use builtin fonts for everything, though I probably could include them in limited capacity
01:03:03 <zzo38> I know how to use METAFONT at least
01:04:48 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'll attempt to base the font renderer on METAFONT because METAFONT seems popular
01:05:21 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, we should make a programming language based on symbols in hte I Ching
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01:08:30 <zzo38> You could also just support the same TFM/PK formats (even if other formats as well), therefore you could combine your program with existing program in either way; so there is other possibility
01:10:07 <MDude> Speaking of Chinese and computers, I've been wanting to make a font for a hex editor that represents hexadecimal with suanpan.
01:10:44 <zzo38> You could add a renderless mode though, in which case only metrics are needed and the glyphs aren't needed (and will be added by another program)
01:17:02 <hppavilion[1]> I have thought of a problem I'm going to have with MEML and such
01:21:13 <hppavilion[1]> MEML fonts made for use in STS will likely need to have special parameterized character rendering, e.g. to tell character renderers how the special characters (e.g. integral) behave such that they can return a useful result
01:24:50 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm thinking that the I Ching language would probably need to support symbols as the mongrams, the digrams, the trigrams, and the hexagrams, as well as perhaps the Tai Xuan Jing symbols (though that might not be such a great idea, given that they're a completely different system AFAICT AND that might offend a buddhist). Also, the Wheel of Dharma might be a symbol.
01:31:17 <zzo38> I intend to soon add a feature to DVIPBM to support an external coprocessor, so we could try to write such an external program that would enable MEML fonts to be used with it; with such a thing it may be able to render documents created with STS in DVI mode when MEML fonts are used (although if MEML metrics are used with PK glyphs then it isn't needed), perhaps.
01:32:52 <hppavilion[1]> MEML is actually an encoding, though, a more morphic unicode that doesn't do all characters as precomposed (which is useful for arrows and box-drawing characters)
01:35:08 <zzo38> If the glyphs can be prerendered then you could even just preprocess them and emit the combination of glyph codes that is needed to create the composed character and therefore work with any program.
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01:35:59 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I have ⚌: Add; ⚍: Multiply; ⚎: Divide; ⚏: Subtract
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01:56:33 <hppavilion[1]> I still need a unicode character to represent IP "DNA" in UniFunge
02:00:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45650&oldid=45620 * Hppavilion1 * (-314) Changed syntax again
02:04:29 <zzo38> Use something in the private use range if you really need to, I suppose
02:21:31 <boily_> QUINTHELLOPIA. happy slaughter of large dinosaur descendants!
02:23:52 <quintopia> we love our bloated ground raptors
02:24:08 <quintopia> i need ais to tell me how the heck one does ANYTHING in 3sp
02:25:51 <quintopia> /https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer
02:28:05 <quintopia> it's not clear how one would go about producing even a basic conditional
02:28:40 <quintopia> I guess I can sort of vaguely see it as through a glass darkly
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02:32:55 * boily_ thoughts suddenly derailed
02:33:13 <boily_> why am I boily_. something's wrong.
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02:33:23 <boily> aaaah, much better.
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02:35:49 <boily> my cola is drinked, ais523 indirectedly made me dizzy, and the siren call of my mattress is becoming urgent.
02:36:05 <boily> argh. la bouteille est finie, bon.
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02:40:35 <HackEgo> danddreclist 72: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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03:52:09 <hppavilion[1]> I can't think of anything good yet for the Buddhist language
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04:03:12 <MDream> I think the haiku language migth be somewhat Buddism-inspired.
04:03:55 <MDream> Oh, there isn't one on the wiki?
04:04:08 <MDream> I thought there was, maybe I was thinking fo something else.
04:04:17 <hppavilion[1]> MDream: No, my language uses exclusively buddhist symbols (The 80 ones in unicode: The two mongrams, 4 digrams, 8 trigrams, 64 hexagrams, the Wheel of Dharma, and the Yin/Yang symbol)
04:04:26 <TellsToGo> Koans are fun too. And have their own brand of Zen buddistic logic.
04:04:42 <hppavilion[1]> MDream: You're thinking of Haifu, which is indeed inspired by eastern philosophy, but not necessarily Buddhist
04:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> So the language operates on a deque of digrams, Greater Yang, Lesser Yang, Greater Yin, Lesser Yin
04:06:42 <MDream> Is this related the I CHing system you want?
04:07:49 <MDream> It interest me that the four types of greater/lesser yin-yang can be related to the four western elements.
04:08:54 <MDream> And Earth, the only Wu Xing element not cooresponging to one of those, is balance and thus can be related to Ether.
04:08:56 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to decide to do with the Trigrams and Hexagrams, not to mention the Yin/Yang and Wheel of Dharma
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04:09:47 <MDream> Well I guess one thing things do is tend to age.
04:10:17 <MDream> And at different rates, given the uneven ditribution of results for proper I Ching divination.
04:10:28 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
04:11:07 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I think I might be going into a math binge this winter
04:11:24 <adu> math is a good winter sport
04:11:45 <adu> you get to stay inside and write equations on paper, or type stuff into Sage or Mathematica
04:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> I want a good mathematical object to use for a language
04:12:16 <MDream> Hmmm. I like that the four coin method produces results identical tot he yarrow stalk method.
04:12:28 <adu> hppavilion[1]: best to start with the "Group"
04:12:33 <MDream> Since four bits = 1 results = suanpan rod.
04:13:23 <adu> hppavilion[1]: according to Haskell, the "Monad" is good for building a language
04:13:34 <MDream> And will ahve to reccomend mathematical objects another time.
04:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm looking for a model to base my I Ching language around
04:14:16 <adu> oh, hyperoperators
04:14:40 <adu> hyperoperators for arith
04:14:48 <adu> and truth tables for logic operators
04:14:53 <hppavilion[1]> I still want to see real and complex hyperoperators
04:15:04 <adu> hppavilion[1]: do you know who I am?
04:15:15 <adu> hppavilion[1]: ah
04:15:46 <hppavilion[1]> Unless you're refering to whether or not I remember you from past conversations, in which case yes I do
04:15:54 * adu has been researching extending tetration to real and complex numbers for almost 15 years now
04:16:10 <adu> I know a little bit
04:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> I did define earlier today a function h(n) such that H[h(n)](0, 0)=sgn(n)
04:16:47 <adu> what's sgn?
04:16:54 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, I just used definitions, so that's kind of cheating
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04:17:25 <hppavilion[1]> sgn(-5000) returns -1, sgn(1000) returns 1, sgn(2123-12i) returns 1-i, et cetera
04:17:29 <adu> I would write that as n/abs(n) for universal unambiguity
04:18:17 <adu> hppavilion[1]: by h(x) do you mean x^x^x^x^...
04:18:28 <\oren\> hmmm my z doesn;t work with my s
04:18:59 <\oren\> Oh shit, it's also identical the small cap z
04:19:03 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's H?
04:19:14 <\oren\> I definitely need to fix that
04:19:42 <adu> hppavilion[1]: hmm, that is interesting
04:19:51 <hppavilion[1]> So we can't do complex hyperoperations with it, but we can do hyperoperations that /return/ complexes
04:20:53 <\oren\> wtf?!!?! my e doesn't macth my èéêë I thought I fixed that a million years ago!
04:21:28 <\oren\> the middle stroke of e should be shorter
04:22:16 <\oren\> I guess I haven't paid much attention to the Latin alphabet fpr a while
04:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> adu: To define the real hyperoperations, we should probably figure out H[-1](m, n) and H[0.5](m, n)
04:23:17 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you interesting in extending (x ↑ⁿ y) to complex x, y, n?
04:23:50 <hppavilion[1]> Though I wouldn't use up arrow notation because it starts at tetration, so I prefer H notation
04:25:41 <hppavilion[1]> So we need to define halfation. AND we need to find the relationship between H[n], H[m], and H[n+m]
04:26:24 <\oren\> @tell b_jonas I changed my glyph for s a lot, and my glyphs for z and e more subtley
04:26:58 <adu> hppavilion[1]: http://math.eretrandre.org/tetrationforum/showthread.php?tid=97
04:27:19 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I've tried that page before, I think. What's your point?
04:27:57 <adu> hppavilion[1]: my point is that I'm "andydude"
04:30:03 <hppavilion[1]> I did think of the hyperoperational factorial. n?=H[n](0, H[n-1](0, H[n-2](0, ...H[1](0, H[0](0, 0))...)))
04:30:33 <hppavilion[1]> Though now that I think about it, that probably just equals 0
04:30:34 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I've never heard of that, I've heard of "exponential factorial"
04:31:25 <adu> hppavilion[1]: the official notation for hyperoperations is Knuth up-arrow
04:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> I could use SO Triangle Notation for all hyperoperations if I wanted
04:32:17 <adu> but Knuth probably has the most mind-share
04:32:47 <adu> I prefer not using TeX when I don't have to :)
04:32:50 <hppavilion[1]> I also defined something called the Arithmetic of the Functia, where I invented function division, if you'd like to see
04:33:40 <adu> x ^(n) y just doesn't look very good in ascii
04:34:27 <adu> which is why ppl on the tetrationforum just use x[n]y
04:35:24 <adu> I think the true breakthrough is going to be for H[4](1.6353, x)
04:36:47 <adu> hppavilion[1]: there was this dude, once, named Cliff Nelson
04:37:16 <adu> he defined a recursive function that defined HL[n](x, y) for all real numbers
04:37:42 <adu> HL[n](x, y) == z iff H[n](x, z) = y
04:38:50 <adu> but I remember researching it for simple bases, like 2 and e and 10, and it wasn't even continuous
04:39:19 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I'm interested
04:40:15 <adu> hppavilion[1]: do you mean (f/g)(x) = f(g^-1(x))?
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05:11:04 <zzo38> Use METAFONT to make your own math symbols if the existing ones are not sufficient!
05:15:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45651&oldid=45320 * Nikoraito * (+256) /* Extensions */
05:17:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45652&oldid=45651 * Nikoraito * (+3) /* Bitwise functions */
05:26:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45653&oldid=45652 * Nikoraito * (-6) /* File I/O functions */
05:31:45 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample 1027 characters so far, thanks to highly regular Yi-jing symbols
05:34:59 <zzo38> I have once made a font for typesetting chess diagrams
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05:45:34 <zzo38> The standard FIDE icons are based on SVG files from Wikipedia, although I have added my own pieces which I have designed the shapes of by myself.
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05:48:10 <hppavilion[1]> What weird mathematical objects could we base a language around?
05:49:36 <shachaf> Categories are pretty simple.
05:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> Here's a catalogue of STS commands, BTW: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gpIA6h0H9GGw-92DNwoZgfkTABiNnddisxHyBKJ4acE/edit?usp=sharing
05:50:02 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I have a hard time understanding them. My brain doesn't abstract that far yet
05:50:33 <shachaf> You don't need to abstract any more than you do for algebra.
05:52:41 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any other "Big" mathematical symbols other than Summation, Product, Coproduct, BigUnion, BigIntersection, and [multiple] [contour] integral?
05:53:41 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe I should just add a $big command for summation/product/coproduct/bigunion/bigintersection
05:54:43 <\oren\> also the [x]_0^\infty syntax for uh... "partially evaluated integrals?"
05:55:38 <\oren\> you put the antiderivative in square brackets with a subscript and a superscript indicating where to evaluate it at
05:56:16 <\oren\> like [x^2]_1^2 -> 4 - 1
05:57:08 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: have you taken analysis yet?
05:57:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45654&oldid=45321 * Quintopia * (+344) added python implementation with extendable storage
05:58:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45655&oldid=45654 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Python */ wiki don't like ''
05:59:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45656&oldid=45655 * Quintopia * (-2) /* Python */ wasted space!
06:01:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45657&oldid=45656 * Quintopia * (+17) /* Python */
06:06:55 <\oren\> http://www.sciweavers.org/upload/Tex2Img_1448518143/render.png <--like this
06:07:37 <\oren\> oops that's actually wrong
06:07:54 <\oren\> well the point is the syntax of []^_
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06:10:37 <\oren\> http://www.sciweavers.org/upload/Tex2Img_1448518418/render.png
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06:34:56 * oerjan wonders if anyone but him likes type family superclasses
06:35:29 <oerjan> i report a bug, and spj's response is to suggest disallowing them altogether.
06:36:34 <shachaf> i,i bug: you accidentally implemented type family superclasses
06:36:54 <oerjan> while i don't see how they're more dangerous than undecidableinstances in general
06:37:19 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm sure i've seen at least one other person use them, some time
06:38:05 <oerjan> and they're not even the core reason of the bug, ConstraintKinds is
06:38:43 <oerjan> once you have ConstraintKinds, you can no longer consider superclass hierarchies to be static.
06:39:33 <oerjan> i suppose to be consistent, he'd also disallow superclasses where the head is a type variable.
06:45:22 * oerjan thinks edwardk must be very busy lately
06:45:55 <oerjan> i'd like to ask him if he's ever used superclass type families
06:46:12 <oerjan> hm maybe i should check the other bug report spj linked
06:49:12 <oerjan> nope, edwardk is just using a type equality + ordinary classes
06:54:57 <oerjan> oh hm, i didn't even finish yesterday's webcomics
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07:07:49 <Sgeo> Did anyone do the olist for the recent olist?
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07:15:29 <izabera> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/firefox-dev/2015-November/003554.html
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07:48:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spiral]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45658&oldid=40219 * Quintopia * (+335) proglang
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07:55:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45659&oldid=43636 * Quintopia * (+300)
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07:57:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45660&oldid=45659 * Quintopia * (-21)
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07:57:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45661&oldid=45660 * Quintopia * (+0)
07:58:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45662&oldid=45661 * Quintopia * (+19)
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08:01:21 <hppavilion[2]> I want to invent a weird logic, entirely foeign to all existing logic
08:01:55 <myname> there are pretty weird ones out there
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08:02:30 <myname> there is SIXTEEN, it has 16 different atomic values
08:02:52 <zzo38> I was having trouble to connect, but it seem working now, at tepper.freenode.net:6665
08:03:21 <hppavilion[2]> Or perhaps I should implement a functional programming language
08:04:36 <zzo38> O, I wasn't the only one; I can see the log now
08:07:12 <hppavilion[2]> Someone should make a programming language based on Algebra
08:09:06 <hppavilion[2]> Is there any online introduction to implementing CASes?
08:10:33 <myname> hppavilion[2]: check out curry for the first two
08:10:35 <zzo38> Sorry, I don't know.
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08:17:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ETAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45663&oldid=20905 * Quintopia * (+240)
08:24:10 <oerjan> oh, it's that day again
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08:30:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45664&oldid=44369 * Quintopia * (+254)
08:33:03 <oerjan> <fungot> HackEgo: it looks like someone could write an implementation. you'll have 3. write down solution <-- huh
08:33:03 <fungot> oerjan: i guess you guys have a lot of drugs _and_ presents for me for some reasion fnord breaks things.
08:33:07 <fungot> oerjan: i'm beggining to hate python's scoping. an eval inside a let
08:33:08 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
08:33:08 <fungot> HackEgo: i'm thinking teaching lisp programming to a child with down syndrome could understand.
08:33:27 <oerjan> fungot's ^ignore list must have been broken
08:33:28 <fungot> oerjan: visited ash some weeks ago.
08:33:40 <fungot> oerjan: i've done it already.)
08:33:42 <fungot> lambdabot: the gdb macro? i tried keeping a alist of pairs i had seen invalid variable reference
08:33:54 <fungot> oerjan: over several hours
08:33:55 <fungot> EgoBot: should we call it string-ref then?
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08:34:53 <fungot> oerjan: five in the afternoon, offby1. it's shorter, it doesn't segfault. i might even be useable to the scheme48 structure named srfi-1. thanks.
08:34:53 <j-bot> oerjan: |syntax error
08:34:53 <j-bot> oerjan: | "fungot"
08:34:53 <fungot> j-bot: why don't ya secretly ignore the assembly completely)
08:34:54 <j-bot> fungot: |open quote
08:34:54 <j-bot> fungot: | why don't ya secretly ignore the assembly completely)
08:34:54 <fungot> j-bot: ( scheme48 is just not
08:34:54 <fungot> j-bot: forth is not gonna release for next 10 years?
08:34:54 <fungot> j-bot: what does that means? afaik there are no syntactic restrictions against this. i'm off to nature ( read: ' it stands for? i got to
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: |syntax error
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: | (scheme48 is just not
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: forth (is not gonna release for next 10 years ?)
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: |spelling error
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: | what does that means? afaik there are no syntactic restrictions against this. i'm off to nature ( read: ' it stands for? i got to
08:36:22 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
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08:39:20 <HackEgo> Algae II, the successor class to Algae. I. Discusses hydroponics and such
08:39:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cellbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45665&oldid=43583 * Quintopia * (+404)
08:40:15 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/. I[.]/ I./;s/$/./' wisdom/alg'. ii'
08:40:22 <HackEgo> Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such.
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08:43:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cellbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45666&oldid=45665 * Quintopia * (+0)
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08:53:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Not The Main Worb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45667&oldid=44768 * Quintopia * (+274)
08:54:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Not The Main Worb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45668&oldid=45667 * Quintopia * (+23)
08:56:11 <b_jonas_> \oren\_: what will you do to the cyrillic letters "ЈІЅ" which look too similar to the latin letters?
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09:03:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45669&oldid=45372 * Quintopia * (+290)
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09:09:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45670&oldid=45165 * Quintopia * (+354)
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10:22:22 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/RQUP49v.gif ha ha ha
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11:28:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whyfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45671 * Jabutosama * (+2379) Created page with "Whyfuck is confusing derivate of well-known esoteric programming language [[Brainfuck]]. It shares brainfuck's possibilities and adds some new ones, but makes programming anno..."
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11:28:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whyfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45672&oldid=45671 * Jabutosama * (+6)
11:28:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whyfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45673&oldid=45672 * Jabutosama * (+2) /* Hello World */
11:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whyfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45674&oldid=45673 * Jabutosama * (-10) /* Working Mechanism */
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11:45:31 <b_jonas> argh, I have to either change the value of the existing flags or have a non-continuous field in this flags argument because I have a four bit wide field that now has to contain too many values. either sucks.
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11:47:53 <b_jonas> I've done non-continuous fields once: the log file for cbstream has one, because there was a 1 bit field showing which server is accessed, but now there are three servers
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12:38:00 <HackEgo> U+30A6 KATAKANA LETTER U \ UTF-8: e3 82 a6 UTF-16BE: 30a6 Decimal: ウ \ ウ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+30D5 KATAKANA LETTER HU \ UTF-8: e3 83 95 UTF-16BE: 30d5 Decimal: フ \ フ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+30D5 KATAKANA LETTER HU \ UTF-8: e3 83 95 UTF-16BE: 30
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14:05:23 <HackEgo> [U+0408 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER JE] [U+0406 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER BYELORUSSIAN-UKRAINIAN I] [U+0405 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DZE]
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14:23:20 <HackEgo> [U+23E8 DECIMAL EXPONENT SYMBOL]
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14:23:46 <\oren\> ah it's that thing we alyas use 'e' for
14:26:32 <int-e> I guess that's "always"
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15:01:38 <b_jonas> argh, where am I corrupting memory how? this is impossible
15:08:23 <b_jonas> ARGH! it's one of those crazy heisenbugs
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15:18:53 <b_jonas> oh! the star destroyer in xkcd contains a room with level 1 of Prince of Persia except for the doors
15:19:47 <quintopia> i never did finish exploring the star destroyer. it was too much
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15:20:14 <b_jonas> quintopia: there's always spoilers in http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1608
15:20:45 <b_jonas> see http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1608#Imperial_Star_Destroyer
15:21:17 <b_jonas> I am cheating in multiple ways
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15:59:51 <izabera> if P = NP then P is 0 or N is 1
16:03:17 <Taneb> izabera: that assumes that P and N are both finite
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16:04:04 <Taneb> If, say, P is positive infinity, that's another case
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16:11:42 <Taneb> That's another another case
16:11:54 <Taneb> (in either case, I believe N must be positive)
16:12:58 <quintopia> so we can at least prove P=0 or N>0
16:13:37 <quintopia> looks too trivial to be abel prize worthy. makes you wonder what all those mathematicians are wasting their time on
16:14:46 <Taneb> quintopia: N can also equal zero in some situations
16:18:56 <Taneb> quintopia: if P = infinity and N = 0, NP is undefined, but infinity is in the range of values it can take
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16:20:04 <quintopia> i'm not sure the concept "is among the potential values of the indeterminate form" is fully captured by the = relation
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16:41:48 <tswett> I'm going to stop populating the "evil" command before I get banned from freenode or something.
16:42:22 <HackEgo> SEIZE IT AND THRUST IT TO THE GROUND.
16:42:30 <HackEgo> YOU CAN BECOME STRONGER. YOU WILL BECOME STRONGER.
16:42:38 <tswett> Those aren't really evil.
16:43:36 <tswett> The first one sounds violent, but it's pretty vague. The second one isn't really evil at all.
16:43:44 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE WRONGED YOU. THEY MUST BE DESTROYED.
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17:16:48 <Taneb> I think when I need to draw https://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/tof.pdf I am either writing fizzbuzz programs very right or very wrong
17:18:10 <Taneb> (if the node labelled OO is treated as both an initial and final state, that is a FSA recognizing multiples of 15)
17:18:24 <Taneb> (well, non-negative multiples of 15, in base 10)
17:20:00 <quintopia> i was expecting it to have states for "fizz" and "buzz" too
17:20:15 <Taneb> Those can be added!
17:20:41 <Taneb> The states with an O in the first position of their name are buzz, with an O in the second position are fizz
17:20:48 <quintopia> but i guess you could just have multiple dfas running simultaneously
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17:34:10 <quintopia> Taneb: can you provide a regex for that DFA?
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17:43:17 <int-e> ^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$
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17:44:27 <int-e> `` seq 1000 | egrep '^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$'
17:44:28 <HackEgo> 15 \ 30 \ 45 \ 60 \ 75 \ 90 \ 105 \ 120 \ 135 \ 150 \ 165 \ 180 \ 195 \ 210 \ 225 \ 240 \ 255 \ 270 \ 285 \ 300 \ 315 \ 330 \ 345 \ 360 \ 375 \ 390 \ 405 \ 420 \ 435 \ 450 \ 465 \ 480 \ 495 \ 510 \ 525 \ 540 \ 555 \ 570 \ 585 \ 600 \ 615 \ 630 \ 645 \ 660 \ 675 \ 690 \ 705 \ 720 \ 735 \ 750 \ 765 \ 780 \ 795 \ 810 \ 825 \ 840 \ 855 \ 870 \ 885 \ 90
17:44:39 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..3999) { /^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ and print"$_,"; }
17:44:40 <HackEgo> 0,15,30,45,60,75,90,105,120,135,150,165,180,195,210,225,240,255,270,285,300,315,330,345,360,375,390,405,420,435,450,465,480,495,510,525,540,555,570,585,600,615,630,645,660,675,690,705,720,735,750,765,780,795,810,825,840,855,870,885,900,915,930,945,960,975,990,1005,1020,1035,1050,1065,1080,1095,1110,1125,1140,1155,1170,1185,1200,1215,1230,1245,1260,
17:45:46 <Taneb> quintopia, no, is the issue
17:45:46 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..39999) { !/^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ == !($_%15) and print"$_,"; }
17:45:58 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..39999) { !/^(([0369]|[25][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ == !($_%15) and print"$_,"; }
17:45:59 <HackEgo> 810,840,870,3810,3840,3870,6810,6840,6870,8010,8040,8070,8100,8130,8160,8190,8310,8340,8370,8400,8430,8460,8490,8610,8640,8670,8700,8730,8760,8790,8910,8940,8970,9810,9840,9870,12810,12840,12870,15810,15840,15870,18810,18840,18870,21810,21840,21870,24810,24840,24870,27810,27840,27870,30810,30840,30870,33810,33840,33870,36810,36840,36870,38010,38040
17:46:03 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..39999) { !/^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ == !($_%15) and print"$_,"; }
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17:46:17 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..399999) { !/^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ == !($_%15) and print"$_,"; } print"ok"
17:52:14 <int-e> I didn't start from scratch; a few days ago I came up with ((ab)*(b|aa)(ba)*(a|bb)|ba)* which accepts words with equal numbers of as and bs, modulo 3.
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17:54:42 <int-e> uhm, I got that wrong. ((ab)*(b|aa)(ba)*(a|bb)|ab)* is right, and it can be simplified to ((b|aa)(ba)*(a|bb)|ab)* ... fun.
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18:00:07 <quintopia> int-e: can you use groups and replacement to replace a number with the appropriate fizzbuzz?
18:01:11 <int-e> so this slightly shorter regex also works... ^([0369]|[258][0369]*[147]|([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))*(0|([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$
18:02:07 <quintopia> funny how it resembles a telephone keypad
18:02:35 <quintopia> i guess its all groups of mod 3 equivalence
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18:03:37 <int-e> quintopia: I don't know; I rather suspect that you one needs 3 replacements to make it work.
18:04:28 <int-e> maybe it makes more sense to recognize the output language: Fizz, Buzz, FizzBuzz, and decimal numbers coprime to 15.
18:05:39 <quintopia> oi is fizz, io is buzz, oo is fizzbuzz, and the others are the others
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18:06:41 <int-e> sure, I could have something /(coprime to 15)|(divisible by 15)|(divisible by 5 but not 3)|(divisible by 3 but not 5)/ ...I just don't see the point.
18:07:46 <int-e> (the expressions would have a common prefix that can be factored out, but that's where the sharing stops)
18:09:47 <quintopia> you could also not include the 15 one
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18:21:49 <oerjan> <b_jonas> impossible to localize <-- only if you insist on having the momentum too, hth
18:23:24 <oerjan> i got a weird irssi script error, but only the first time
18:25:00 <oerjan> <testing> impossible to localize <-- only if you insist on having the momentum too, hth
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18:26:04 <int-e> oerjan: did you know that you can join a random channel and test things all for yourself?
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18:28:10 <myname> question: proof by induction that every set with n elements has 2^n subsets
18:28:17 <myname> answer i got: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iqo3ttmp8cxync9/IMG_20151125_160627.jpg?dl=0
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18:28:27 <oerjan> well the exact line i said to b_jonas didn't trigger it again
18:28:46 <int-e> oh dropbox, why won't you work without javascript
18:30:34 <int-e> ugh, I hate such solutions
18:30:40 <oerjan> it's pretty lousy even with javascript, on this computer
18:30:51 <int-e> "what was the student thinking? is there a glimmer of a right idea in there that might be worth a point?"
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18:31:05 <myname> it was one of the better ones from him.
18:31:23 <int-e> myname: it just shows a blank page. *with* javascript it displays an annoying dialog asking me to register...
18:31:23 <myname> but i mean, there's not even a 2^n in there
18:32:02 <oerjan> myname: i am guessing he doesn't know the difference between 2n and 2^n
18:32:07 <int-e> "induction" --> something with sum from index 0 to n+1 <-- only pattern I see, and of course it's wrong.
18:32:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45675 * 73.234.127.46 * (+2095) Adding small language
18:32:30 <myname> the steps are ridiculous by itself
18:32:42 <myname> first step: replace = with +
18:32:55 <myname> second step: remove sum sign
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18:34:40 <oerjan> i'll grant that it's a small language.
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18:35:15 <oerjan> b_jonas: no, that i said to you
18:35:26 <myname> on another question he does something like
18:35:52 * int-e loves fields of characteristic 2.
18:35:55 <oerjan> b_jonas: it gave a weird error from elliott's irssi script. my guess is some other script hadn't loaded yet, because it disappeared.
18:36:31 <oerjan> int-e: they're pretty cool
18:36:59 <int-e> myname: what is this, bachelor first semester computer science (I sincerely hope it's not math...)?
18:37:30 <oerjan> although there should be an efficient deterministic way to generate them...
18:37:47 <myname> it's either maths, physics or bioinformatics in at least the third semester
18:39:21 <oerjan> myname: this sounds like the kind of guy that should really be told to give up on this level of math, if anyone would dare to...
18:40:50 <izabera> http://dangerousminds.net/comments/bank_of_canada_urges_star_trek_fans_to_stop_spocking_their_fivers
18:42:15 <oerjan> hm nimoy wasn't canadian at all, afaict
18:42:21 <b_jonas> int-e: right. and the general way to solve linear equation systems on arbitrary finite fields (or over an extension of rationals too if you wish) is to use GAP. I've solved equations that way multiple times, incuding over GF(2), GF(127), and GF(128).
18:42:22 <int-e> myname: well I think they won't be happy in any of those three fields.
18:42:49 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample#ua66e
18:42:55 <lifthrasiir> everyone seems to like this glyph, so I've added it
18:43:27 <int-e> b_jonas: But GF(127) doesn't have characteristic 2!
18:43:52 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I know, but I solved equations over GF(127) over that field still
18:44:14 * int-e should perhaps learn to use gap... so far pari/gp has been sufficient for just doing calculations though
18:44:32 * oerjan thinks it must be rather heartbreaking to love science and want it as a career if you cannot do math at all
18:45:07 <int-e> (but I'm not sure whether it can handle non-prime-order finite fields; I believe so but I'd have to figure that out when I need it)
18:45:35 <int-e> oerjan: it would be
18:45:44 <b_jonas> GF(127) => http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=581159 ; GF(128) => http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 (in reply) and http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110
18:45:50 <int-e> it's easier to assume that they just want a degree or pass some time while looking for a job
18:46:24 <b_jonas> GF(3) => http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=940327 (in reply)
18:47:58 <b_jonas> one of those nodes actually show the GAP code by the way
18:48:14 <int-e> oerjan: the really sad part is this... it's very much possible that the same student got excellent grades in mathematics in (~high)school.
18:48:19 <oerjan> well prime fields are easy, just modulo arithmetic
18:48:26 <oerjan> and fermats little theorem
18:48:51 <b_jonas> oerjan: non-prime fields are easy too
18:49:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 is all about how easy it is to compute in a non-prime field, though it only evaluates a polynomial, it doesn't solve a linear equation
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19:02:34 <oerjan> <b_jonas> quintopia: there's always spoilers in http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1608 <-- hmph i seem to have missed 8 coins...
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19:04:21 <int-e> oerjan: did you find the underground cave in the western mountain (volcano)?
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19:06:05 <int-e> oh there's a floating island as well... tricky
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19:08:17 <int-e> I'm looking at the "png-map" https://i.imgur.com/uYryxss.png
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19:10:31 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I made something similar, except I started from the big map, recolored it so that full black (wall) is distinguishable from any gray (decoration), then shrunk it
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19:12:13 <int-e> I didn't make that picture; the link is from explain xkcd.
19:12:42 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, and a png picture of the full map can be found there too
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20:00:31 <?unknown?> *** Notice -- TS for #esoteric changed from 1448565836 to 1164523370
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20:08:32 <zzo38> How do I add my own packages to the package manager so that it will handle all of the installing and dependencies and so on properly? I want to add the newest version of SQLite to the package manager and I want to add Swiss Ephemeris and make the package manager to understand it
20:09:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: what package manager? I don't get the context
20:09:34 <b_jonas> .oO(not #debian or something)
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20:21:20 <b_jonas> DAMN! the old url of OEIS is no longer valid, so links everywhere on a millyon webpages are broken
20:21:20 <int-e> "the package manager" probably comes with a set of development tools for creating packages, which have documentation that one can read and follow.
20:23:34 <FireFly> b_jonas: hm? the usual URL format for OEIS seqs still seems to work
20:24:33 <int-e> @google inurl:njas oeis
20:24:35 <lambdabot> http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A095268
20:24:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tatjam * New user account
20:24:47 <b_jonas> FireFly: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A072405 gives me an error
20:25:06 <FireFly> Ah, I didn't know about that URL
20:25:18 <b_jonas> yes, but it used to redirect for a while
20:25:34 <b_jonas> and was popular back then when that was the URL
20:25:42 <b_jonas> and lots of people link to it because it's a useful reference
20:26:11 <int-e> well there's still hope that it's a temporary hickup
20:28:07 <b_jonas> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences says it's been down for a while
20:31:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45676&oldid=44530 * Tatjam * (+813) /* 8bit Assembly BF interpreter */ new section
20:31:26 <int-e> so they stopped redirecting to oeis.org some time in 2012...
20:32:34 <zzo38> I mean in Ubuntu. I have downloaded packages from elsewhere to add into the package manager but I don't know how to make up my own versions of packages
20:33:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45677&oldid=45676 * Tatjam * (+46) /* 8bit Assembly BF interpreter */
20:33:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45678&oldid=45677 * Tatjam * (-1) /* 8bit Assembly BF interpreter */
20:35:00 <int-e> zzo38: I'd start with http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/packaging-new-software.html and for a template, e.g., http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/sqlite3
20:35:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45679&oldid=45678 * Tatjam * (+0) Ooops, wrote the debug program wrong...
20:40:35 <zzo38> I want to make it compatible with the existing SQLite packages so that all program can use the same SQLite
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20:41:18 <Sgeo|web> So, if Freenode isn't completely dead, why am I having trouble?
20:41:28 <zzo38> But if there exist already the package of the newest version that is already compatible with my computer then I can use that instead.
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20:48:12 <int-e> Sgeo: you were on the wrong side of a netsplit, I'd say
20:48:41 <zzo38> I did find the package on there for Swiss Ephemeris although I do not have it on my own computer (therefore I would need to add that package to the package manager, but I would need to ensure that doing so is not causing problems with other packages)
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21:06:50 <hppavilion[2]> Can someone help me with the design of an Algebraic programming language?
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21:12:55 <zzo38> I was writing a calendar program in TeX but I intend I may now instead write in C because this way I can link to both SQLite and Swiss Ephemeris (both of which support Julian day numbers, even). It can receive a list of SQL statements on stdin and send a DVI to stdout, with an optional database name and other options as command-line arguments.
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21:32:54 <tswett> I got 145 coins, and I did find the Steven Universe characters.
21:33:01 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: may I ask, out of curiosity, how old you are?
21:33:52 <hppavilion[1]> Not sure if I want to answer that, but that's an answer in itself xD
21:34:36 <tswett> So you're older than 40. Got it. :D
21:34:44 <tswett> (Or younger than 18 or even 13.)
21:35:30 <tswett> You remind me of me at around your age.
21:36:06 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Yes. Yes you were. I'm taking your guess as a compliment.
21:36:08 <tswett> Which wasn't *all* that long ago. You're about eight years younger than me.
21:36:34 <nchambers> hppavilion[1]: yeah I'm a terrible guesser :D
21:37:40 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/hppa*
21:37:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/hppavilion1 wisdom/hppavilion[1]
21:37:46 <tswett> I'm not sure if I was going somewhere with this...
21:37:51 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
21:37:57 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out how to make a usable declarative programming language based on CASes
21:38:05 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
21:38:28 <tswett> I think I know what it means.
21:38:52 <tswett> "hppavilion[1] is described in the footnotes. Why not both? Nobody knows."
21:39:31 <tswett> I have no idea what "why not both?" is referring to.
21:39:36 <tswett> Apart from that taco commercial.
21:39:59 * int-e was tempted to add "hppavilion[1] is a y2k bug" but it's probably a bad idea anyway...
21:40:40 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: let me know if you ever want me to deliver you a monologue about mathematics or life wisdom or something.
21:40:48 <tswett> Not that I know much about this life wisdom stuff.
21:41:03 <hppavilion[1]> (I use "xD" a lot because I feel like no one can tell I'm kidding. For the record.)
21:41:50 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: in 1999 there was a bit of a scare because a lot of software would treat year numbers as two-digit quantities, leading to silly effects like displaying the year 2000 as 1900 or 19100... in the end, nothing bad happened.
21:41:54 <hppavilion[1]> Can CASs usually do Algebra at the level a human can, or are they just primitive algebras?
21:42:17 <int-e> that was the Y2K bug, the year 2000 bug. The reas is just backward extrapolation from your age.
21:42:24 <int-e> the reas? the rest.
21:42:46 <tswett> Well, when it comes to solving equations and integrals and whatnot, I think CASes are generally much better than people.
21:43:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Ah. That might make it a *bit* difficult to engineer an Algebraic lang
21:45:01 <hppavilion[1]> Tri[a,b,c] creates a triangle object with vertices a, b, and c
21:46:05 <puckipedia> (lol, I had that idea too, describing geometry by defining constraints)
21:46:35 <hppavilion[1]> puckipedia: Yep. I want to make an actually-usable language out of it.
21:46:51 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I could base it on Algebraic Geometry or Geometric Algebra?
21:47:44 <puckipedia> stuff like (Triangle ABC; AB = 5; BC = 7; Circle AB;) would define a triangle, and a circle with center A, and B on the circle or something
21:47:46 <tswett> I read a little bit about algebraic geometry.
21:48:25 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps a language based on neither Algebraic Geometry nor Geometric Algebra, but based on both Algebra and Geometry independently
21:48:27 <tswett> I guess I'd appreciate an algebraic geometry textbook that's at a lower level than the one I looked at.
21:48:38 <tswett> The textbook I read assumed you were familiar with rings.
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21:50:30 <myname> well, if you don't need to proof things, you can handle them like fields most of the time
21:50:51 <myname> in thst case i am pretty sure you ARE familiar with rings
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21:55:22 <tswett> Besides, we only ever use, like, four rings anyway.
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21:55:31 <tswett> Reals, complexes, real polynomials, complex polynomials.
21:56:22 <tswett> Maybe subrings and quotients of those.
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22:02:20 <hppavilion[1]> Should I use unicode in my geometric language, or should I confine it to ASCII for typability purposes?
22:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll confine it to ascii, perhaps with optional unicode
22:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call R-like vectors in this language? I can't call them vectors, because those are vectors in the mathematical sense, and
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22:29:23 <zzo38> Confine to ASCII, with optional Unicode support if you wish.
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22:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> Should I use \ as line intersection, or /\, or something else?
23:05:18 <hppavilion[1]> Or I guess I could use +, but that's used for addition and might get a tiny bit confusing
23:18:36 <zzo38> (I would recommend that invalid UTF-8 should be allowed in comments though, even if nowhere else in the program)
23:20:56 <tswett> Hmm. For my programming languages, I was thinking I'd define a program as being a sequence of Unicode characters. Theoretically, this means that it's impossible for a UTF-8-encoded program to contain invalid UTF-8.
23:21:05 <tswett> If something contains invalid UTF-8, that means it's not UTF-8-encoded.
23:28:14 <hppavilion[1]> Here's what I have so far: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sEyRHE3CLyVNwrkh-jsL32MIhtrdUjZ7WMVV8MAd2Kw/edit?usp=sharing
23:28:29 <hppavilion[1]> No actual docs, just information on operations and how you create objects in the form of big tables
23:31:51 <hppavilion[1]> (the final version will either be HTML or a PDF, depending on how I'm feeling that day. Or maybe just plain TeX under the principal of "if you can't either use TeX to compile to docs or read plain TeX yourself, you shouldn't be using my programming language")
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23:39:37 <hppavilion[1]> Just want to make sure people are aware it exists.
23:39:58 <tswett> Do you know any Haskell, by the way?
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23:42:03 <zzo38> TeX should be fine since it would not be too difficult to read, and can be compiled using TeX into DVI and any other formats needed (PCL, PBM, PostScript, PDF, etc); if no macros and fonts are used other than the "plain" macros, the standard Computer Modern fonts, and any others that are provided with the document, then it can be worked very easily.
23:42:38 <tswett> You know what would be interesting? Creating an ellipse with a specific circumference.
23:44:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: My point was that I should use TeX so that people who don't know how to TeX can't learn the language and give up before starting, such that the community for the language consists only of people smart enough to at /least/ compile TeX.
23:45:39 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh, and you can just use Google Docs' "suggest" feature if you weren't aware, though it is perfectly acceptable just to inform me here
23:48:06 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh, that was a double trap: Not only is /finding/ the circumference of an ellipse hard (in this case, "hard" is formally defined as "involving an infinite series"); there are an infinite number of ellipses with a given circumference AFAIMO
23:49:19 <tswett> Yeah, you'd have to specify the eccentricity and... angle, I guess, somehow.
23:49:33 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: now, are you familiar with how conic sections are defined by polynomials of a certain form?
23:50:01 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I suspect that that's second-semester Algebra II, so no
23:50:18 <hppavilion[1]> Unless you mean like r**2=x**2+y**2, in which case yes
23:50:51 <tswett> I learned it in Pre-Calculus, actually.
23:50:52 <tswett> ax^2 + bxy + cy^2 + dx + ey + f = 0
23:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I think the only way to create an angled shape in Euclid thus far is to use the theta transformation function
23:52:27 <tswett> The general form of a conic section.
23:53:05 <tswett> All ellipses can be specified that way, and all parabolas and hyperbolas.
23:53:11 <hppavilion[1]> Conic section including just Circles and Ellipses (obviously, circles are a subset of ellipses), or including also hyperbolas and parabolas
23:53:28 <tswett> And also a couple of things that aren't conic sections, too.
23:53:46 <tswett> Namely: nothing; a single point; a line; the union of two lines. I think that's it.
23:53:47 <int-e> like pairs of parallel lines
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23:54:15 <hppavilion[1]> ax**2+bx+c is ax**2+bxy+cy**2+dx+ey+f=0 with some of the variables renamed and moved around, and some of the coefficients equal to zero it looks like
23:54:40 <tswett> Quadratic equations are a special case of that.
23:54:48 <tswett> These two equations are equivalent:
23:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Isn't the union of two lines either identical to (both) of those lines or equal to a single point?
23:55:12 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: no, that would be their intersection
23:55:16 <hppavilion[1]> Also, wouldn't nothing, a point, and a line be conic sections more-or-less
23:55:47 <tswett> And: ax^2 + 0xy + 0y^2 + bx + (-1)y + c
23:56:05 <hppavilion[1]> Because a point is just the tip of the cone, and a line is just a plane right along the edge of the cone, and nothing is a plane that doesn't intersect the cone at all
23:56:16 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: exactly!
23:57:01 <int-e> right, I believe the case of two parallel lines is the most degenerated one when you want to interpret it as a conic section.
23:57:11 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should generalize Euclid to 3 dimensions, but still allow it to be interacted with in 2
23:57:38 <hppavilion[1]> Namely, with a "plane <plane equation>;" keyword/marker that changes the plane that equations define in
23:57:45 <int-e> oh and we better don't talk about the case a=b=c=d=e=f=0 at all
23:57:52 <tswett> Though it's actually impossible, I think, to have a plane and a couple cone that don't intersect.
23:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> Not technically imperative, though, because it's just syntactic sugar that happens to be the only way to do something
23:58:11 <tswett> Oh right, one more "degenerate" form of the equation: a = b = c = d = e = f = 0, which has the entire plane as a solution.
23:58:16 <tswett> s/couple cone/double cone/
23:58:28 <tswett> (Though "couple cone" would also make sense, as it happens...)
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23:59:02 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with the adjective "degenerate" in math?
23:59:03 <hppavilion[1]> Which I suppose is probably the mathematical definition of a cone that no one ever bothered to inform me about
23:59:14 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Not particularly, but I've heard it before.
23:59:31 <hppavilion[1]> I believe it's when some variable approaches infinity or zero?