00:02:39 <Taneb> Doesn't mean it's not terrifying
00:04:22 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: do you have any reading material on creating an esoteric language?
00:04:57 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: Not really, we're kind of an obscure community
00:05:31 <hppavilion[1]> Creating something brand new is difficult, but creating a new spin on existing (eso-)paradigms is easy
00:05:46 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: No you might not. Well, you might, but it'd be the last thing you'd say.
00:06:33 <nchambers> I should write an interactive compiler course
00:06:44 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Yes. You should. I'd like to write one.
00:07:17 <B1ood6od> Well. I mean. I have the option to teach tech stuff at my local library. If I get more into esoteric languages to the point of comprehending, I could very well offer some educational stuff on it.
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00:09:53 <hppavilion[1]> B1ood6od: You could do that, but esolangs aren't very useful to those who want to learn about tech
00:10:12 <hppavilion[1]> You could perhaps offer a separate ~class on "Programming Languages as Art"
00:10:32 <hppavilion[1]> But you'd have to be a fairly advanced Esolanger to start evangelizing, far beyond just normal understanding.
00:11:02 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Oh, you meant a compiler course that's interactive xD
00:11:06 <B1ood6od> hppavilion[1]: sorry, by tech I meant anything dealing with computers whatsoever. Also, not quite classes but rather educational day things aimed towards teens.
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00:11:28 <hppavilion[1]> The thing is, surrealist programmers are a pretty small niche.
00:11:49 <hppavilion[1]> There are only about 20-30 of us in an active community, you'll notice.
00:12:02 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: A course on compiler writing or a course on compiler using?
00:12:25 <nchambers> an interactive compiler using course is called your shell :p
00:12:38 <hppavilion[1]> I advise you drop everything and immediately start working on it 24/7 until it's done.
00:13:52 <nchambers> yeah. if I can actually learn some webdev
00:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: I could help with the website. What kind of languages will it show compiling?
00:16:49 <hppavilion[1]> Will it feature information on Language Design itself?
00:17:05 <nchambers> hppavilion[1]: of course :D... I was thinking of doing a scheme
00:18:04 <nchambers> of course, I am learning J... it could be fun to do it in that
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00:18:40 <nchambers> it can certainly be used as a golfing language
00:18:50 <nchambers> its used in buisnesses for tools though
00:19:07 <nchambers> theres a guy in #jsoftware who writes J full time
00:19:09 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Are you targetting a real-world platform, or are you making your own VM or something?
00:20:06 <nchambers> errmm probably at first like C or something easy to target
00:20:29 <nchambers> then I'll do something on writing a virtual machine and switch the target to that
00:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> That works. OR you could make your own high-level assembler.
00:21:30 <nchambers> here you go! target this non existant bytecode! trust me... it works!
00:22:01 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: I have formulated ~25 different stack (or, well, deque) manipulation instructions.
00:23:26 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Here's the list (for a language I'm making called Wybe, designed as an embedded language and usable stacky language): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1vUGYJP_QO1jm7S7TcQffplZlV0NBQeJsRnGeevbMuMM/edit?usp=sharing
00:32:03 <\oren\> bah google docs chat is a poor imitation of irc
00:32:15 <\oren\> it doesn't even have fungot
00:32:15 <fungot> \oren\: of what?! no man, cage is sweet. so sweet. so sweet. so sweet.
00:32:43 <APic> ,o0(I like fsbot in #Emacs)
00:32:49 <APic> Sorry, could not resist.
00:37:24 <\oren\> some of them are not o's but о's
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00:38:22 <\oren\> i didn't include any ο's however
00:40:27 <APic> Still nice ones
00:41:10 <B1ood6od> So, per-person question. When working in a fungeoidal language, should the resulting code just... Work? Or should it look good as well? As in, have a shape or something.
00:41:45 <\oren\> I find it hard enough to write a working program
00:43:07 <B1ood6od> I just feel like my ASCII > Rubik's notation program isn't as pretty as it could be. I'm also the guy who got addicted to TIS-100 and writes in smali when I'm bored.
00:43:25 <boily> ヘロレン！えっと…ちょっと怖いんだよ
00:44:01 <APic> UTF8 does, too
00:45:00 <boily> Bellood6od! prettiness is tantamount to achieve great fungeoïd programming hth
00:47:33 <B1ood6od> I think I definitely want to work more with befunge, or similar languages. It's fun.
00:52:45 <boily> you can even hunt wumpuses in it!
00:52:58 <boily> (wumpus? wumpii? wumpæ??
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00:55:26 <hppavilion[1]> It must've been a joke that I was too thick to see xD
00:55:28 <boily> long history, of which I'm missing many details.
00:55:37 <boily> fungot: laconic rot?
00:55:37 <fungot> boily: be in cahoots with! you guess none the wiser, you board the shuttle. next stop, it's unbecoming electricity, although he gives a small man. but there is a factory there you do.
00:55:49 <boily> hppavellon[1]. a mapole does all.
00:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Laconic Rot means the symbolic rot instruction (laconic POP is $)
00:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> Rot rotates the top 3 elements, and there are about 12 different variants on it
00:57:47 <boily> coppro: chelloppro. do you like shrimps?
00:59:12 <hppavilion[1]> OK, ROT is ], ROTCC is [. Back versions are prefixed with ~, and far versions have a _ on the pronged side of the bracket.
01:12:36 <\oren\> szszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszszsz
01:14:03 <\oren\> I like how zszszszszszsz looks like a pattern in my font
01:16:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The new s or the old s? Because it looks fukin awesome with the old s
01:16:56 <\oren\> the new s and the nes z
01:18:23 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bbs
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01:29:21 <hppavilion[1]> I've decided on :-> for Registering Event Handlers
01:29:47 <hppavilion[1]> Though it could easily be confused with something like @-> (WHILE) when it's really more similar to DEF.
01:33:09 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: How good is your Haskell, or more specifically, GHCi?
01:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> I was wondering if there's a way to search the currently-available libraries for things with a certain type
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01:38:43 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: you can use hoogle
01:39:15 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think I need it right now, but I'll attempt and most likely fail to remember that!
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01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 26m 12s ago: <tswett> The ordinal numbers are keeping me awake. <-- try attaching them to sheep hth
01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 19m 58s ago: i'm not convinced your Z(a,b) defines an ordinal number for a > 0. it seems to me that Z(0,b) = b for any infinite ordinal b, so there _are_ no larger ordinals for a > 0 to choose from.
01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 15m 4s ago: hm wait, Z(0,b) = b+1.
01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 59m 38s ago: oh hm i see, when you fixed it to "not equal to" it makes more sense. because Z(0,...) leaves out all the limit ordinals, so Z(1,...) gets some of those.
01:51:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 58m ago: except i fail to see how there's anything left for Z(2,...).
01:51:50 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 55m 9s ago: i really should learn not to @tell until i've read through the whole log discussion...
01:57:26 <boily> @ask oerjan @tell me more @tell me more ♪
01:58:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hurricane996 * New user account
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02:08:49 <boily> who's i'll? and is it a valid IRC nick?
02:10:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fob]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45774 * SuperJedi224 * (+152) Created page with "What python version should the interpretrer be run in? ~~~~"
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02:22:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bfstack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45775 * Hurricane996 * (+441) Created page with "BFStack is an esoteric brainfuck derivative. It is stack based instead. The instructions are almost the same, but changed to be stack based. ">" Pushes 0 onto the stack "<" ..."
02:22:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45776&oldid=45267 * SuperJedi224 * (+29)
02:24:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fob]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45777&oldid=45774 * SuperJedi224 * (+63)
02:25:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45778&oldid=45302 * SuperJedi224 * (+94)
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02:31:28 <^v> hppavilion[1], i think ^v^v is me?
02:31:50 <^v> usually my nick is just ^v, v^ and ^^v
02:35:05 <^v> but wait, wouldnt brainfuck be stack based anyway?
02:35:11 <^v> just a vertical tape
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03:21:19 <tswett> That is not a valid nick.
03:21:36 <lambdabot> KGRR 040253Z 24013G28KT 200V280 9SM OVC016 03/00 A3033 RMK AO2 PK WND 30028/0246 SLP277 T00330000 53006
03:21:57 <tswett> I barely know what any of that means.
03:22:27 <tswett> Yeah, that's pretty much it.
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03:35:20 <hppavilion[1]> What kinds of higher-order functions are there? (Efficiency ones and ones that work on infinite lists are redundant)
03:42:19 <tswett> Lots and lots and lots.
03:42:50 <tswett> Many people believe that the most important concept in mathematics is the function.
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04:02:54 <augur> hppavilion[1]: higher order functions are everywhere!
04:04:03 <augur> sortWith is a good one
04:05:16 <augur> and of course bind (>>=)
04:05:31 <augur> you could maybe consider things like (<*>) to be higher order
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04:11:33 <\oren\> a for loop is a higher order function
04:12:03 <\oren\> (with unorthodox syntax)
04:12:47 <augur> possible. depends on how you want to view it :)
04:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> augur: Keep in mind, I don't actually know that much Haskell.
04:13:07 <hppavilion[1]> I just tried to hit tab to autocomplete the word "haskell" xD
04:13:16 <augur> hppavilion[1]: both are related to function application, but with fancier functions
04:13:20 <hppavilion[1]> My brain cannot tell the difference between Programming languages and People
04:15:43 <hppavilion[1]> augur: I'm just asking what I need to implement for Functional Programming (the style, not the paradigm) in a language I'm making.
04:16:46 <augur> the best way is to not think of functions as something special
04:18:21 <^v> im bored, is it a good idea to learn haskell
04:18:23 <hppavilion[1]> I never have. I'm just asking what higher-order functions I should include.
04:18:25 <augur> well then, you dont need to worry about what sorts of functions to implement :)
04:18:36 <augur> hppavilion[1]: dont include any
04:18:38 <^v> ive basically mastered C,C++, and lua
04:19:05 <hppavilion[1]> augur: They need not be builtin, but they'll probably be in the standard library
04:19:30 <^v> im thinking of learning arm/thumb (since i might want to do be a firmware developer)
04:19:52 <^v> hppavilion[1], haha ive put more time into esolangs than i would like
04:20:02 <^v> atleast 100 hours of brainfuck
04:20:15 <^v> and all my friends look at me like im fucking insane
04:20:31 <augur> hppavilion[1]: there's no such thing as ASM :)
04:20:44 <augur> but ^v could definitely learn MIPS assembly!
04:21:05 <^v> augur, i have an interest in arm/thumb specifically because vex robots run on it
04:21:16 <augur> ^v: arm would probably be good for getting jobs
04:21:42 <^v> i am on a vex roboitcs team
04:21:59 <^v> vex is like first robotics little brother
04:23:14 <^v> augur, cant decide between low level and high level for jobs
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04:23:36 <^v> im 16 and homeschooled so its hard to intern xD
04:28:37 <^v> because when applying you usually have to make the choice
04:30:03 <^v> low level C/asm firmware for various devices or high level for usually computer/phone applications
04:30:29 <augur> sure, when applying someone. but when STUDYING you can do whatever you want!
04:30:45 <^v> fair enough
04:31:01 <augur> the more you study, the more you can apply to
04:33:02 <^v> from what ive seen, interns are basically useless
04:33:46 <^v> i have a friend that did better than most of his co-workers when he interned, he got an offer to drop out and join for 60k/yr
04:33:59 <^v> and a 3k bonus at the end
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04:55:15 <^v> i dont know who ^v^v is
04:55:31 <^v^v> oh nevermind my desktop reconnected
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05:46:07 * Sgeo once mirrored a site that was on Geocities and contacted the person. Turns out they had already migrated off of it
05:46:20 <Sgeo> Um. I may have been significantly scrolled up
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06:53:39 <^v^v> Sgeo, geocities
06:53:45 <^v^v> that is a name i have not heared in a long time..
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07:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: Is a vex robot at all related to the similarly-named type of robot?
07:02:31 <hppavilion[1]> Namely, the ex-robot: Robots that have had their brains uploaded to a computer and are now disembodied.
07:04:36 <^v> no i mean real moving robots xD
07:04:45 <HackEgo> U+FFFF - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef bf bf UTF-16BE: ffff Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+FFFF \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
07:05:24 <^v> heres a pic of the last one i built http://i.imgur.com/ImJR7a4.jpg
07:06:40 <^v> http://i.imgur.com/Vmz2SgG.jpg
07:06:44 <^v> it lifts up
07:06:57 <^v> and a wall of awards in the background xD
07:07:46 <^v> sorry to dissapoint, i dont build sex robots
07:08:04 <^v> it has a claw so i guess it could hold a fleshlight or something xD
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08:03:22 <^v> std::map<std::map<std:map<unsigned char*,unsigned char*>,unsigned char*>,unsigned char*>
08:04:00 <^v> fuck your convetions ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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08:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> Now I want to make a Captain Forever: Remix-like games
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08:23:28 <^v> hppavilion[1], im actually developing a captain forever like sandbox game
08:23:55 <hppavilion[1]> Not sure what the original Captain Forever was like
08:23:55 <^v> and yes, it has computers
08:24:17 <^v> custom assembly
08:24:31 <^v> we were thinking of using arm instead
08:24:41 <^v> but qemu is pretty bulky
08:24:46 <^v> hppavilion[1], C++/Lua
08:25:15 <^v> will probably turn into a company at some point
08:25:27 <^v> we are verry skilled
08:26:08 <^v> physics, destruction, etc
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08:26:40 <^v> i like developing on the GPU
08:27:30 <^v> a lot of things you do seem counter intuitive when creating highly parallel code but actually are more efficient
08:28:04 <^v> we are so used to programming on the CPU where memory access between threads is relatively cheap
08:30:34 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: I don't even do C, so I don't know what you're talking about with memory access between threads
08:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> Though I assume it has something to do with accessing memory. Between threads.
08:31:00 <^v> has more to do with CPU architecture
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08:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> Procedurally Generated spaceships will be fun for my little CF
09:19:23 <b_jonas> oh! age old bug I reported is now fixed! yay!
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09:52:51 <mroman> b_jonas: Turns out GOT Hijacking is a thing.
09:52:54 <mroman> although a rarer thing.
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10:03:39 <mroman> I don't really get how PLT/GOT works though
10:03:53 <mroman> 0x8048320 <puts@plt>:jmp DWORD PTR ds:0x8049688
10:03:59 <mroman> is that a memory indirect jump thing?
10:04:23 <mroman> i.e. jmp to whatever is at address 0x8049688 but don't jump to actual address 0x8049688
10:05:46 <mroman> actually with at&t its jmp *0x8049688
10:05:52 <mroman> but I can't find anything about what that star means
10:06:49 <FireFly> I saw a nice post explaining PLT/GOT a while ago, let me see if I can find it..
10:07:28 <mroman> I think the GOT is updated once you called the function for the first time
10:07:40 <mroman> because that's in fact a memory indirect jmup
10:07:51 <mroman> so the target address is behind 0x8049688
10:08:00 <mroman> but that just contains a reference back to the PLT for now
10:08:10 <FireFly> https://www.technovelty.org/linux/plt-and-got-the-key-to-code-sharing-and-dynamic-libraries.html this one
10:08:10 <mroman> which probably calls the runtime resolver
10:09:52 <FireFly> Right, there's a trampoline immediately followed by the code that patches the table or something like that
10:10:05 <mroman> yeah the address is updated after the first call
10:10:22 <FireFly> after the function has been called once, you can look up the concrete address of the library function
10:10:40 <mroman> GOT hijacking overwrites entries in the GOT so for example if you can gain control over a pointer where some data is written to
10:10:45 <mroman> you can redirect printf to system
10:11:02 <mroman> FireFly: yes, after it has been called once the actual address will be written to the GOT
10:11:51 <mroman> Let me just blog about that in my blog so I don't forget about it later :D
10:11:53 <FireFly> I used the address from the GOT as a base address to locate execve for a CTF task
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10:35:12 <mroman> Although with ASLR and PIE I think pretty much all of the stuff doesn't work anymore
10:35:17 <mroman> ASLR alone can be circumvented
10:35:24 <mroman> but I haven't heard anything about dealing with PIE
10:39:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mego * New user account
10:40:10 <mroman> 0x80000703 <+23>:call 0xb7eaac20 <printf>
10:40:15 <mroman> with PIE it doesn't use the PLT
10:43:21 <mroman> at what point is this resolved?
10:44:00 <mroman> this means loadtime stuff is going on
10:44:08 <mroman> the code is patched at load time with the actual addresses?
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11:09:12 <quintopia> can the wiki load a wikitable from an external source?
11:22:53 <mroman> unless you mean something like a File uploaded to the wiki?
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12:06:58 <lambdabot> quintopia said 9h 29m 6s ago: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-0NVE9E8UJiT0loSFZkdmktRFU/view?usp=docslist_api
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14:33:40 <oerjan> this new disk drive has a ridiculously annoying parking sound ;_;
14:33:58 <lambdabot> boily asked 12h 36m 31s ago: @tell me more @tell me more ♪
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14:49:59 <Taneb> In 6 hours I'm going to be in London
14:51:52 <Taneb> No, but it'll be the first time on my own
14:52:09 <Taneb> First time I've travelled further south than Leeds without a grown-up
14:55:31 <Taneb> fizzie, you're in London, right? Do you know anywhere nice and not too expensive I can get breakfast near King's Cross or Imperial College/
15:02:41 <fizzie> I'm in London, but I don't really know London, and my "hoods" are mostly around Victoria and southwest from there.
15:02:51 <oerjan> it's not a clicking sum, but a humming one, as if actually hearing the disk winding down...
15:03:15 <fizzie> Well, I guess Imperial College is hereabouts, actually. At least somewhat.
15:03:26 <fizzie> On the third hand, I just eat the free food here at work.
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15:26:27 <fizzie> I don't know what the word means, really. I just meant "places I'm customarily near to".
15:27:17 <fizzie> I think of them as modes in a probabilistic model of my location.
15:31:42 <fizzie> Taneb: There's a cat cafe we're going to have breakfast at in London, but we haven't been there yet, so I don't know if it's nice -- plus it's fully booked for pretty long time in advance, and probably a bit on the expensive side (extra entrace fee to cover the cats, for example), so this is probably not a useful tip for you.
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15:33:16 <fizzie> (I've just been feeling a bit deficient in the cat department, and some other people have said it was a nice place.)
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15:35:16 <Taneb> Yeah, I'd rather avoid booking a long time in advance for breakfast tomorrow
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18:07:47 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a difference between `reduce` in Python and the `fold`s in Haskell?
18:11:35 <hppavilion[1]> copumpkin: According to F#, fold takes an initial value whereas reduce just starts with the 0th element in hte list.
18:11:58 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> a -> a) -> t a -> a
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19:18:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45779&oldid=45204 * Quintopia * (+274) explanation of reasoning behind the exceptional behavior of this example program
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19:39:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45780&oldid=45675 * 73.234.127.46 * (+104360)
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19:54:40 <izabera_> https://github.com/makeamericagreatagain the author is donald trump from 1970
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21:47:22 <Newyorkadam> Hi, I’m trying to print out a 178-character string in brainfuck. this wouldn’t be a problem except I’m limited to using 270 characters of brainfuck. I was considering compressing the 178 char string; do you guys have any other ideas?
21:50:07 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: just a character limit for the service I’m using
21:50:10 <hppavilion[1]> Is it for a school assignment? Because that'd be SO FUCKING COOL
21:50:18 <Newyorkadam> but it is related, it’s for a senior quote
21:50:40 <int-e> that may be asking too much (cheating aside; some brainfuck implementations actually allow accessing the code as data...)
21:51:14 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Brainfuck gets repetitive, so you could use _n syntax
21:55:40 <fizzie> You could give the bf_textgen program a go, although 178 to 270 might be too much to ask, depending on the string.
21:56:20 <fizzie> Well, I mean, the syntax is not part of brainfuck.
21:57:02 <fizzie> If the 270 character result needs to be a program a brainfuck interpreter can read, putting numbers in doesn't really help, since they get ignored.
21:57:09 <fizzie> If it's meant for humans, sure.
21:57:53 <fizzie> (I don't know what a "senior quote" is -- it sounds a bit more human-oriented.)
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21:59:51 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: It's a quote that you put in the yearbook in your last year of high school, I believe
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22:01:13 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: it goes in a yearbook under your name. people put inspirational, funny quotes
22:01:43 <Taneb> Well, I seem to be in London
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22:03:23 <fizzie> I'm sure it can be done in less. bf_textgen spit out 105 characters for me.
22:04:16 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: https://copy.sh/brainfuck/text.html?
22:05:10 <fizzie> It's a Java thing, it's floating around the webs somewhere.
22:05:23 <fizzie> https://github.com/graue/esofiles/blob/master/brainfuck/util/textgen.java
22:05:39 <fizzie> (The 105 was without the newline.)
22:05:48 <hppavilion[1]> -[------->+<]>.-[->++++<]>.[->++<]>+.++++++++++++.-----[->++++<]>.>-[--->+<]>-.------------.---.-[-->+<]>--.---[->+++<]>.+[---->+++<]>-.+++++++++++.++++++.+++.--.+[--->+<]>++++.+++[->++<]>.-.----.>-[--->+<]>---.--[----->++<]>.++++++[->++<]>+.++++++++++++.+[--->+<]>++.---[->+++<]>.-----.--[->++++<]>+.++++++++.+++++++++++.------------.
22:05:54 <^v> hppavilion[1], +9 is called run-length encoding
22:06:16 <^v> run-length encoding is a lazy way to do brainfuck
22:07:13 <^v> but sometimes you dont have 2 spaces to clobber
22:07:22 <fizzie> Newyorkadam: It's non-deterministic, you can get lucky.
22:07:35 <^v> so -[------->+<]> like encodings arent an option in those cases
22:07:52 <fizzie> I don't think it will get you down to 270 for a 178-character string, though -- given the fixed structure of the output, it has an absolute lower bound of N+k for N-character output, where k is a smallish constant.
22:08:08 <fizzie> (The .s are outside a loop, so it will always contain at least N .s)
22:08:19 <Newyorkadam> the best I’m getting with my string right now is 9925 :S
22:09:29 <fizzie> Sounds a bit far-fetched still, but you can always try.
22:09:54 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: got a recommendation for any compressor?
22:10:50 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: textgen.java uses a genetic-programming-inspired algorithm, so yes.
22:11:11 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Well, I mean, "non-deterministic" in the usual sense of using a PRNG seeded with something.
22:11:14 <^v> Newyorkadam, a 160% size ratio when encoding brainfuck is pretty much impossible
22:11:45 <^v> so reducing the size of the text is your only viable option
22:11:54 <Newyorkadam> was just wondering the best way to do that
22:12:35 <^v> hppavilion[1], hex RLE would give you a ratio of 300%
22:12:52 <^v> Newyorkadam, depends on the text obviously
22:13:07 <Newyorkadam> here’s the string: "\"Wikipedia is the best thing ever. Anyone in the world can write anything they want about any subject, so you know you are getting the best possible information.\" — Michael Scott"
22:13:30 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Could you pastebin the quote then encode the URL in BF?
22:13:57 <Newyorkadam> was thinking that, but if I’m looking at my yearbook in 50 years I don’t think the link will still be up
22:14:29 <fizzie> At the very least, drop the UTF-8 — from it.
22:15:21 <^v> i hate how macs replace " with “ and - with —
22:15:23 <Newyorkadam> wow! dropping the — to a - got me from 9925 to 1515 lol
22:15:57 <^v> Newyorkadam, ofc, because every character was forced to be utf8
22:16:20 <fizzie> The sort of output generated by a compressor isn't generally very easy to produce from a brainfuck program. You might have better luck trying to generate the string with brainfuck, and then come up with the most compact way of encoding the brainfuck code. If you don't mind it being not so readable, just feed the *brainfuck* through some suitable general-purpose compression algorithm, then ...
22:16:26 <fizzie> ... base64 that for survival.
22:17:01 <fizzie> I got 1225 out of textgen.java with "-t 6" -- that's the number of "terms", for long quotations having more than the default (4) can be beneficial.
22:17:55 <fizzie> Not going to be very helpful, I think. There's diminishing returns, plus extra constant cost for terms.
22:18:30 <^v> does textgen have multiple layered loops?
22:18:55 <fizzie> ^v: No, it has a pretty simple structure, very definitely non-optimal.
22:19:10 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Put it in a .tar.gz and host it on your own server. Then, bit.ly the sucker.
22:19:32 <^v> i was thinking if you wanted to implement something like that it would be beneficial to use the GPU
22:19:35 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: I don’t think my server will be up permanatly though
22:19:59 <fizzie> It's 400 characters for a simple textgen -t 6 + bzip2 -c -9 + base64. Might be better to add something brainfuck-specific to the mix.
22:20:45 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: You could encode it in BitSwitcher (or whatever it's called) and encode it as pairs of 2 bits. Though I think that language has more commands in it.
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22:23:01 <hppavilion[1]> Though you won't be able to use the quotes or the dash. It only supports lowercase letters, space, comma, and period, I believe.
22:23:25 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Hash it. No one will be able to read it, but it would still be cool.
22:23:49 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: wouldn’t compressing it have the same effect(
22:24:06 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: No, hashes go much farther than compression.
22:24:30 <Newyorkadam> I actually got it down to like 40 characters with smaz (a compression tool) but ran into some weird issues
22:24:55 <Newyorkadam> I could also bank on a really bad hashing algorithm being easily cracked in a few years lol
22:25:36 <^v> its too large for that to work
22:25:47 <Newyorkadam> I found some that have been cracked but that only a few strings have been cracked
22:26:08 <^v> you could CRC32 segments
22:26:18 <hppavilion[1]> ^v: Is "Cut the last character off the end of the string" technically a hashing algorithm? You can't reverse it to get the plaintext, and it produces consistent results for equal strings...
22:26:46 <^v> best crypto
22:27:04 <Newyorkadam> we’re on the quest to find the least secure hashing algorithm! lol
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22:29:13 <hppavilion[1]> Extend Scrabble such that it supports at /least/ all of ascii.
22:29:48 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I don't think you can do that as there are only a hundred tiles.
22:30:30 <hppavilion[1]> With infinitely many tiles and squares (and a different ending condition)
22:30:40 <^v> hppavilion[1], no clue
22:30:42 <Taneb> Couldn't you just reencode into base 27 first?
22:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> And it turns out that that channel is just mall cops and school police?
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22:36:23 <fizzie> For the record, the same output that was 400 bytes (textgen | bzip2 | base64) is 492 if I make it textgen | bfpack | bzip2 | base64, where "bfpack" denotes the trivial "convert brainfuck commands to 3-bit sequences and pack densely" transformation. Which isn't exactly surprising -- that's going to be really pessimal for the general-purpose compression. Really, the compression algo should ...
22:36:29 <fizzie> ... inherently be designed for a input that's a sequence of 3-bit symbols.
22:37:21 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: so what do you think I should do :P bank on a certain algorithm being cracked?
22:37:37 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: do you recommend a certain one
22:37:38 <fizzie> (But that's a bit much for a shell oneliner.)
22:38:23 <^v> or use a checksum designed for error correction
22:38:29 <^v> so like crc1024
22:38:42 <hppavilion[1]> Strip all non-alphabetic characteres, calculate the resulting word's scrabble score.
22:39:40 <Newyorkadam> I was reading this, do you guys think any of it could help me: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1138345/best-compression-algorithm-for-short-text-strings
22:40:55 <fizzie> A "cracked" hashing algorithm doesn't sound all that helpful, because even if there's an easy way to find pre-images, you're generally not going to get the *quote* out of it, just something that hashes to the same thing.
22:41:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45781&oldid=45773 * Luis Mendo * (+827) /* Specification */
22:41:18 <^v> Newyorkadam, best you are going to get is 50%
22:41:22 <^v> which isnt enoug
22:41:34 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: True, true. Of course, you could keep testing until it makes a quote.
22:41:35 <^v> and will also make the brainfuck code larger
22:42:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45782&oldid=45781 * Luis Mendo * (+4) /* Compiler */
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22:44:17 <Newyorkadam> ^v: using smaz I got it to like 45 characters
22:44:22 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: I'm looking for a language concept that allows me to assign instructions to a ton of unicode characters. Have any ideas?
22:44:37 <fizzie> And anything smaz-like (as in, based on a predefined dictionary of "typical" text; you could do a "bfsmaz"-style thing that'd be very good in packing brainfuck code) arguably suffers from the problem that it's not feasible to decode without expecting the exact dictionary to be still available in the far future.
22:44:48 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean instructions?
22:45:12 <hppavilion[1]> You're new and I was just wondering if you can think of anything.
22:45:13 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: isn’t that essentially brainfuck?
22:45:16 <fizzie> In which case you could as well just compress it to the string "that Michael Scott quote about Wikipedia".
22:45:29 <Newyorkadam> like “+” increases the cell; that’s an instructions
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22:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Yes, that's an instruction. I'm looking for a language concept that can have a LOT of instructions.
22:45:56 <Newyorkadam> I could invent “Newyorkadam’s smaz” which would translate “a” to “this is my senior quote”
22:46:26 <hppavilion[1]> Or if you post it, the server will go down someday
22:46:46 <hppavilion[1]> You know about brainfuck. You're an amazing programmer
22:46:55 <hppavilion[1]> Also, you knew what I meant when I brought up hashes.
22:47:03 <Newyorkadam> I actually wrote a brainfuck RPG game during a hackathon a few weeks ago
22:47:18 <Newyorkadam> I could only found one other person who did it and they wrote it in C and just used a program to make it brainfuck
22:47:43 <fizzie> It's not like this smaz thing in the first place is very well-known. It's just some random dude's github with an English/web-text-oriented ad-hoc codebook.
22:47:46 <Newyorkadam> I have it saved.. I can toss it over if you want
22:47:48 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: You wrote an RPG. In brainfuck. What.
22:48:14 <^v> hppavilion[1], i wrote an IRC bot
22:48:20 <^v> in brainfuck xD
22:48:21 <Newyorkadam> I also think I developed a new, extremely inefficient way of doing an if/else
22:48:42 <^v> Newyorkadam, :o
22:48:50 <^v> been looking for a good way to do ifelse
22:49:26 <^v> it joins a channel and responds to pings
22:49:27 <Newyorkadam> let me know what you think of this if/else: http://pastebin.com/WRsWJTc4
22:49:35 <Newyorkadam> It’s gonna need some explaining though lol
22:49:41 <Newyorkadam> let me know if you don’t get it (you probably won't)
22:50:12 <^v> Newyorkadam, lmao thats how i do it
22:50:19 <Newyorkadam> alright open up this link it will help me explain: https://fatiherikli.github.io/brainfuck-visualizer/#
22:50:40 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: run this “,>++++++++++[<---->-]<-------->>+<<“
22:51:22 <Newyorkadam> so what that line does (third line in the paste) is you input a 1 or a 0
22:51:32 <Newyorkadam> if you put in a 0, the first cell will equal 0
22:51:37 <Newyorkadam> if you put in a 1, the first cell will equal 1
22:51:48 <Newyorkadam> it then increases the third cell to 1 no matter what
22:52:03 <Newyorkadam> so the loop in brainfuck will only run if the currently cell is greater than 0
22:52:21 <Newyorkadam> if it IS greater than 1 (i.e. user inputted ‘1’), it runs that loop
22:52:21 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: I would advise you add a >>-<< to kill that third cell, just for neatness purposes
22:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> Or wait, it eliminates the third cell's existing value
22:52:41 <fizzie> If you *really* want to spend time tinkering with this, you could *try* making an Huffman/LZ77-style thing that takes 3-bit sequences as input. Although expecting anyone to be able to unpack it without any hints is asking quite a lot.
22:52:58 <^v> i was creating a really convoluted system where there are 2 spaces between every cell you use
22:53:09 <fizzie> I did get the bzip2-base64 down to 376 with a bit of tweaking, but that's still quite far off from your limit of 270.
22:53:15 <^v> that way you can have pointers
22:53:20 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: I was looking into huffman but was still having some trouble
22:53:27 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: do you see how it works now?
22:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> Newyorkadam: Not really, but that's more a fault of my ability to pay attention that of your ability to explain
22:54:08 <Newyorkadam> essentially there’s a temporary value in the third cell
22:54:24 <Newyorkadam> if the user inputs 1, I run the IF code and delete that third cell value
22:54:35 <Newyorkadam> by the time you get after that IF, the brainfuck checks if there’s anything in the third cell
22:55:00 <Newyorkadam> if there is, that means that the first IF didn’t run, so it assumes it’s else and then runs the else. if the third cell doesn’t have a value, it assumes the IF ran and continues w/o running the else
22:56:41 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: 376 is still really impressive, thanks for helping me
22:58:45 <tswett> I don't remember if I have a name for that database query language of mine or not.
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22:59:53 <tswett> Should I name it after another El Goonish Shive character? Depends on how much I like their names...
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23:02:41 <Newyorkadam> hppavilion[1]: do you wanna play my rpg lol
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23:05:13 <fizzie> 348 with the trivial ASCII-based RLE in-between textgen and bzip2, and 316 with a very arbitrary shorthand notation that nobody could really be expected to come up with without hints; and neither of those are quite enough.
23:07:01 <fizzie> Sorry, the 316 number was a screw-up; the 348 should be legit, though.
23:07:12 <fizzie> Not that I've bothered to verify what I did was reversible.
23:08:39 <fizzie> QlpoOTFBWSZTWYCtfOcAAAoaAAALf+UACjABWQgRT8JpBJGFDTTAAJT0SSNJiE+H08VGuRKw70g6u2SPdgiqN45Kx1ojwcqXdRt2w1Mju7LjSQDZ8S8SBBpFApADnZtaW9m1VS79Nx8dazs77c1ezQruynSqJjQ5MxxBynmRjpk2STRwB3ilmMKtn5mak5lh8Jr18rV2aRHdOAGHUrGMH8Grx+Zhm2mLvfFd3BrF889eeOIKjzoT7CYKiJi6705GxmNTt3NmckizpZmuXOkHmbIWj1SSReHCUiR4zU1I3xMIOwX1YCYiC+TDD04B8cOOB+02gfzHAw78/4u5IpwoSEBWvnOA
23:08:54 <fizzie> That's the 348; like I said, the 316 was a screw-up.
23:09:23 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: Oh, I thought you meant 348 brainfuck characters
23:09:35 <fizzie> No, no; if that were the case, you'd be home free already.
23:10:31 <fizzie> Because you can trivially ancode 348 brainfuck characters into 174 printable ASCII symbols.
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23:18:19 <nchambers> someone wrote a lisp interpreter in brainfuck with tail recursion and here I am struggling to write a linked list
23:20:49 <fizzie> Newyorkadam: I'm tempted to suggest relying on the redundancies of English and compressing the quote itself by removing all vowels (and capitalization, because they're far away as far as ASCII goes). I've got an intelligible version down to 280, which is getting pretty close.
23:23:41 <fizzie> A non-standard encoding (that used more printable characters than base64) would likely already be <= 270, but it'd be a bit hard to figure out.
23:26:49 <fizzie> Oh, textgen hummed it down to 276.
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23:27:08 <fizzie> QlpoOTFBWSZTWaftZKUAAAgaAAALP+UACjABFsiIqf4mk0yiBDaTVAaASnpNUU8RqE15vtXEygcRLjKKEQcxJtVbV4CMEcWHDukaQlHtyBfr38fzxWGz63phed0mmAhE0egitL5ONwwLBPa47SOSee2Yo+pb1gTqQUu0eQKOUxOWYPdyg5rmRSh35nWcJ17yQcVXFNJTU3iW3csJRq8VpolqsFI653dSyMWRILyxNkRySY85mB2mHqC/qb568NMzCoftv+LuSKcKEhT9rJSg
23:49:07 <fizzie> Newyorkadam: Okay, I've got a 264-character output here (263, in fact, since the last character is just base64 padding that's quite safe to omit):
23:49:10 <fizzie> QlpoOTFBWSZTWZshv/UAAAaaAAALP+UACjAA9GBqn5GhGqaA1PaKgGQEmoKho9IVKLQnqRTAHDrVcBNSMAibLisOZiS/DAIITMgwZBhDmC4ObvH05WcfG4M3aKR8NoI+oLO5OfKWpne3GMbbZUypoXUEOKyA2O8iGQrNXDg03mdr3dRdBZ2cNPTEzVR7ZQo2ZuXKwzMaqZVumaZFKDLKbpbNRq+VkRxoVghxnkCHTBeMmIv3m3Ah+Z76/i7kinChITZDf+o=
23:49:37 <fizzie> Should probably check that it actually generates something reasonable, though.
23:49:48 <oerjan> ouch i hope this girl genius act doesn't end with the obvious tragedy...
23:53:12 <fizzie> Newyorkadam: http://sprunge.us/JCbI -- seems to work, depending on whether you think the output is a close enough approximation. You might get closer with the same techniques with a bit more patience.
23:53:34 -!- ProofTechnique has joined.
23:55:04 <fizzie> If you want to play around, http://sprunge.us/cfDW is what I was feeding the textgen.java outputs into for testing, although out of those four bzip2 was consistently the lowest-overhead one for this particular application.