00:00:16 <Newyorkadam> I posted a more thought-out question here: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/34099489/printing-out-178-character-string-in-270-lines-of-brainfck
00:00:28 <Newyorkadam> fizzie: cool, thanks for all the help dude
00:05:18 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, seems unlikely
00:08:48 <oerjan> int-e: i hope so, but having one of gil or tarvek die tragically _would_ be a "traditional" way to resolve the love triangle...
00:09:20 <oerjan> (the untraditional way has already been lampshaded, of course, but whether the foglios actually dare to _use_ it...)
00:09:49 <int-e> oerjan: yeah, I suppose Tarvek could get out and live while Gil gets stuck in the time bubble
00:10:09 <int-e> that's the kind of twist the Foglios seem to love ;)
00:10:16 <oerjan> that doesn't work because the dreen said gil will go to paris.
00:10:52 <int-e> (though did they say when?)
00:12:01 <oerjan> also, gil showed up in the time windows, tarvek didn't.
00:12:43 <oerjan> so tarvek dying would be disturbingly consistent.
00:13:23 <int-e> hmm. but why now... why not in Paris?
00:13:32 <int-e> In Agatha's arms, perhaps :P
00:13:55 <int-e> Anyway... we'll see.
00:14:06 <oerjan> in any case, if he's not to die promptly _someone_ needs to get an antidote, stat
00:14:10 <int-e> And I wonder whether we'll get to see another Paris strip this year...
00:14:59 <oerjan> also, there might be some twist in _who's_ attacking. maybe they actually came to warn them...
00:15:02 <int-e> Or amputate the head quickly enough :P
00:15:11 <int-e> ("Hmm, tricky. But I've seen worse.")
00:15:53 <oerjan> that would rather hamper tarvek's bid for the storm king post... (he _has_ been dead already but it's not common knowledge.)
00:19:07 <oerjan> as has agatha, but the castle decides _that_ family's inheritance rules.
00:21:04 <oerjan> if they suspect something, they might keep him in a time envelope like they did with vole
00:21:24 <oerjan> until they find out how to cure it
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00:21:59 * oerjan wonders if he'll ever get used to this stupid hard disk's parking sound
00:22:27 <oerjan> what's wrong with a simple click (i used to find _those_ annoying too...)
00:25:28 <oerjan> none of the service documents say what brand of hard disk it is...
00:27:21 <oerjan> oh maybe it's actually in this menu
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00:29:40 <izabera> a friend of mine submitted a paper to arxiv with a typo in its title
00:31:29 <izabera> http://arxiv.org/abs/1512.00766
00:36:37 <int-e> entering wrong metadata can't be that uncommon... I expect it can easily be fixed...
00:37:02 <izabera> you have to submit a new version
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01:04:45 <oerjan> http://www.hgst.com/products/hard-drives/travelstar-z5k500 "quiet operation"
01:05:27 <oerjan> the power management settings in windows say it'll only be turned off after 20 minutes. this happens far more often.
01:06:23 * oerjan hopes this will be fixed in the heap of windows updates that are waiting to be installed...
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01:43:03 <\oren\> try changing it to 30 minutes
01:43:41 <oerjan> i fail to see how that would help when it's parking several times a minute.
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01:44:16 <oerjan> i suppose it might be an idea to change it just to see if something gets set...
01:45:28 <oerjan> and there it wound down again.
01:45:44 <\oren\> are you sure that it's in minutes and not seconds?
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01:47:36 <oerjan> i suppose getting the units in the driver wrong is silly enough to be plausible... except i doubt it's the hard disk driver that counts those minutes...
01:48:16 <oerjan> well getting the units wrong in windows itself would be even sillier, i guess
01:51:11 <oerjan> (took a long time before the next disk pause, but then only 5-10 secs until winding down
01:52:06 <\oren\> are you sure the disk isn't defective
01:52:25 <oerjan> the disk is new. i suppose it could be...
01:52:37 <\oren\> also what happens if you try disabling disk parking
01:52:48 <oerjan> i don't know how to do that.
01:53:25 <oerjan> also parking shouldn't be the same as winding down like this :(
01:54:09 <zzo38> How do I change the setting for font smoothing in Firefox in Linux?
01:54:44 <zzo38> All of my other programs do not use antialiasing and cleartype and I want to disable it on Firefox too
01:57:51 <^v> zzo38, why would you want to disable antialiasing ._.
01:57:57 <oerjan> dammit the hdd driver is supposedly already up to date
01:59:22 <zzo38> I also want all programs to use bitmap fonts by default
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02:01:58 <\oren\> antialiasing is crap that's why
02:02:37 <\oren\> fonts should be designed to fit the screen without being blurry
02:04:42 <^v> if your fonts are blurry then you need more hinting xD
02:04:55 <\oren\> hinting doesn't do shit
02:05:00 <^v> it does for me
02:05:03 <^v> and everyone else
02:05:56 <zzo38> I found in /etc/fonts/conf.d and I deleted 70-no-bitmaps.conf and 10-antialias.conf from that directory; it doesn't seem to affect Firefox?
02:06:50 <\oren\> ^v: no, most people are just used to looking at blurry text
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02:10:13 <^v> \oren\, with hinting + AA http://i.imgur.com/zXM3ZVg.png, no hinting (really blurry) http://i.imgur.com/YNTsVYS.png, no AA http://i.imgur.com/EYvYhwa.png
02:10:25 <^v> hinting and AA make it much more readable TBH :/
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02:11:29 <^v> also im using subpixel smoothing, normal AA is blurry
02:11:59 <oerjan> <keiber> hola <-- darn no one remembered to `bienvenido?
02:12:28 <\oren\> ^v: like I said, you're using a badly designed font and then compensating by using antialiasing and subpixel rendering.
02:13:13 <oerjan> can you antialias a square peg to fit in a round hole?
02:13:16 <zzo38> Or you are trying to use a printer font on the screen improperly
02:13:51 <\oren\> If you use a font that is designed to fit exactly into the pixel grid, then antialiasing will make it look worse, not better
02:19:11 <zzo38> I am not using Microsoft; it is Mozilla
02:20:22 <\oren\> Huh? Have you turned off Cleartype?
02:21:48 <\oren\> ^v: for a good example of a font that fits into pixel grids exaclty, compare MS PMincho (pixel perfect) to Times New Roman (Requires AA)
02:22:19 <^v> but what about different text scales?
02:23:40 <^v> if a font is already pixel perfect, it would look the same with hinting?
02:24:10 <\oren\> Usually fonts like PMincho contain several sets of bitmaps for common smaller sizes, plus vector paths for large sizes
02:26:02 <\oren\> ^v: no, what they usually do is use a flag in the TTF or OTF format that tells the renderer specifically NOT to anti-alias the font at small sizes
02:26:32 <^v> so whats the issue with having AA and hinting?
02:26:32 <\oren\> without that flag, it will blur it
02:27:07 <\oren\> that it's the wrong solution to the problem
02:27:16 <^v> i dont see how
02:27:59 <^v> without it most of my fonts look like shit and are really choppy
02:28:24 <\oren\> because most of your fonts are not designed for a computer screen
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02:28:41 <^v> if the font designers had time to make their fonts look good at all scales without AA they would
02:29:00 <\oren\> Japanese font designers have time
02:29:21 <oerjan> ProofTechnique: i don't think we have a portuguese version yet?
02:29:27 <\oren\> They have time to do it for 1000's of kanji for that matter
02:30:49 <^v> doesnt make my fonts more readable
02:31:01 <^v> subpixel smoothing and hinting do
02:31:25 <^v> unless someone can redesign every single font
02:31:36 <^v> so they work better at smaller sizes
02:34:19 <\oren\> Well, all I'm saying is in Japan subpixel smoothing is not used at all in the most common fonts. Dunno about Korea or China but I would suspect the same.
02:35:52 <\oren\> Go to http://www.asahi.com/ for example. Do you see subpixel smoothing on that page? I sure don't.
02:36:58 <ProofTechnique> I don't think it would be possible to read that with subpixel smoothing
02:39:08 <^v> the banner with ノーベル賞
02:39:18 <^v> has subpixel smoothing
02:39:37 <^v> sorry for spam, sneaky newlines
02:41:08 <ProofTechnique> And it is quite difficult to read. Even worse in my client :(
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02:41:47 <\oren\> everything else is crisp though
02:42:08 <^v> 勝,戦,頂 would be impossible to read without AA, the lack of subpixel smoothing on the larger sized text makes it blurry
02:42:23 <^v> \oren\, looks blurry for me
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02:43:54 <^v> http://i.imgur.com/VJs0Qsg.png
02:44:40 <\oren\> http://oi63.tinypic.com/t6tgf8.jpg
02:45:16 <^v> i hate tinypic
02:46:27 <ProofTechnique> Speaking of fonts, does anyone have a good tool to convert a PCF into a TTF or something?
02:46:51 <^v> 6+ adverisements, popups everywhere, that link isnt an actual .jpg unless you give it a referer header
02:46:58 <\oren\> http://postimg.org/image/km8tpxpf9/
02:47:01 <^v> it has taken over 60s for the image to load
02:47:41 <^v> oh you have AA disabled
02:48:41 <^v> the font has AA but not subpixel
02:49:37 <\oren\> The font has flags set that way
02:50:32 <^v> so my system is ignoring them?
02:51:04 <coppro> what's the term for when you discover something and get stuck reading it for hours?
02:51:22 <\oren\> Yes, it's prbably ignoring the GASP table, or you don't have the MS PMincho font
02:51:41 <\oren\> http://www.microsoft.com/typography/otspec/gasp.htm
02:52:16 <^v> what is https://esolangs.org/forum/
02:52:21 <^v> and why is it so bad
02:53:45 <oerjan> coppro: archive binge hth
02:54:23 <\oren\> looks like the forum has been dead since 2009
02:54:55 <^v> we should re make it xD
02:55:29 <oerjan> ^v: it's just an archive now, it got so much more spam than actual posts that we just closed it when elliott took over the wiki
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02:56:06 <\oren\> where is elliott anyway?
02:56:08 <oerjan> remaking it seems doomed since there's no reason it would be different now
02:56:34 <oerjan> elliott lost interest in the channel and left
02:56:46 <^v> oerjan, how so
02:57:08 <\oren\> I think captchas have been invented now
02:57:09 <oerjan> ^v: it's not the first esoforum to die, the mailing lists did so before
02:57:50 <\oren\> I suppose the forum now is the talk pages
02:57:51 <oerjan> there's /r/esolangs on reddit btw, it's almost but not quite dead
02:58:15 <\oren\> which have the advantage that hackego announces each change here
02:58:16 <^v> oerjan, im thinking of making a website designed to teach people esolangs
02:58:36 <^v> like hackthissite but challenges with esolangs
02:59:06 <coppro> oerjan: archive binge is for the activity
02:59:21 <coppro> the issue is subject/object
02:59:24 <coppro> I archive binge a comic
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03:00:32 <oerjan> there's also wikiwalk for another instance
03:04:00 <oerjan> coppro: well there's "draw ... in" i guess
03:04:39 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
03:04:49 <tswett> `run words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20}
03:04:55 <HackEgo> saligeter fla 1ml difying hangoint fetie ravi monsta mal frea catchdndh teme bearj tript nanegle tbf antinar veliul goul montiner
03:05:08 <tswett> I'm trying to think of a name for my database query language based on category theory.
03:06:26 <oerjan> REL is the category of relations iirc hth
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03:15:48 <oerjan> huh the disk winding down seems to have stopped.
03:16:19 <oerjan> but now there's some clicking instead. i guess this is not a good sign...
03:17:24 * oerjan changes the windows setting down from 1000 mins to 21 mins again, just in case...
03:20:27 <tswett> Dunno, I kind of want to just think of an arbitrary word and stick a Q in it.
03:22:24 <\oren\> oerjan: get a new computer
03:22:41 <tswett> Queece. Quines. Qrew. Quendy.
03:23:16 <tswett> Qonstellation. Quirthmark.
03:24:28 <tswett> (Anyone see the trend here?)
03:24:52 <tswett> Ooh, I like it. It's like a portmanteau of "query" and "query".
03:25:52 <tswett> Quite. Quack. Queen. Quellow. Qued. Quue.
03:26:45 <oerjan> \oren\: erm i just got this back from the repair shop, the hdd is new as i said.
03:26:58 <tswett> I dunno, I'm ready to just start trying arbitrary meaningless words.
03:27:14 <oerjan> now the winding down came back.
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03:29:22 <tswett> Wait, how about... Qone?
03:39:15 <tswett> Quendle? I like the way that sounds.
03:39:24 <\oren\> jesus christ this is terrifying. Fontforge does not autotrace well at small sizes
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03:47:11 <\oren\> here this is the autotraced version http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemowtf.htm
03:47:25 <\oren\> not to e confused with fontdemo.htm
03:49:04 <\oren\> Basically, autotracing it in a normal way makes it a halloween font
03:49:46 <\oren\> That's why I have my complex procedure
03:56:06 <Newyorkadam> shortest someone can get “”See you in another life, brotha!" - Desmond Humes” in brainfuck?
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04:19:38 <zzo38> I have made calculation of the first, second, and third derivative of Bezier curves.
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04:37:00 <zzo38> I think it means, if the jerk is zero then the middle control point have the same direction as the end point from each other but only one third of the distance
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04:42:40 <BloodGod> If I am interested in writing an interpreted language, should I learn java? I see a LOT of mentionings of java in interpreters.
04:44:49 <zzo38> You don't have to use Java; there are other programming languages to use
04:45:21 <\oren\> cleartpye really screws things up when background: green; color: fuchsia;
04:46:09 <BloodGod> I was just curious as I see java everywhere while looking at languages. Must jut be a very very commonly used language.
04:47:02 <\oren\> it's the lingua franca among the younger generation of application coders
04:47:29 <BloodGod> I guess I'm weird in multiple ways. 18 and I main C.
04:47:31 <\oren\> especially those trained at school
04:48:33 <\oren\> I write C++ for my job
04:49:05 <^v> \oren\, what type of applications do you make in C++
04:49:23 <\oren\> I work on the backend of Hound
04:49:56 <\oren\> http://www.soundhound.com/hound <-- this
04:51:05 <\oren\> I learned to code on my own and didn't take courses until university, so I didn't learn much java
04:51:53 <\oren\> To an acceptable degree I know C, C++, Perl, VB, Python, and PHP.
04:52:14 <BloodGod> First language I touched was java, because I was lazy and tired of manually doing time dialation calculations. Also, I'm having issues finding sources for 4DL, any tips?
04:52:46 <^v> i dont see a benefit in having to go to a university in order to learn programming, since i already know C++, C, Lua, PHP, GLSL, OpenCL
04:53:16 <^v> working on using dat arm/thumb in real world robotics
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04:54:28 <^v> i really dont like java
04:54:33 <\oren\> I made sure to take a lot of math, rather than CS, in uni, that way I learned more. (My degree was still in CS)
04:54:57 <\oren\> E.g. I took advanced calculus and number theory
04:55:01 <^v> yeah i could be better at math
04:55:37 <^v> but i still havent used anything more complicated than trig for physics and simulation programs
04:56:57 <\oren\> The cost/benefit of a university degree is getting worse and worse
04:58:13 <\oren\> so, I've told younger friends of mine: don't get a degree unless your parents are paying.
04:58:18 <^v> especially a CS degree is useless if you dont know the programming language the job requires
04:59:37 <\oren\> ^v: I'm not so sure, when I got my first job I told them flatly I dodn't know any PHP, but apparently I'm the only one applied who could write a working program in any language...
04:59:39 <zzo38> I program in C and BASIC and TeX and 6502 assembly language
05:00:03 <\oren\> so they hired me and I spent the first week learning php
05:00:07 <^v> 6502 asm :o not many people do that anymore
05:00:22 <\oren\> I do, for modding NES games
05:00:45 <BloodGod> Ahah, you guys seem way out of my league. I was considering getting some assembly practice in (i do some smali programming, assembly isn't far off)
05:01:10 <^v> \oren\, i did PHP when i was 13/14 xD it seems to be getting worse and worse the more i look back at it
05:01:48 <^v> oh and also a few months ago modding PHPBB
05:01:55 <\oren\> PHP is horrible and I was very glad when summer and that contract ended
05:04:10 <BloodGod> Hm.. how hard is it to write an interpreter for an existing language?
05:04:54 <\oren\> depends on the language. if it has a clear definition then pretty easy
05:09:02 <^v> yeah pretty easy
05:12:28 <BloodGod> I found the source for one (that doesnt seem to work) in c++, im skimming it and it doesn't seem too hard. Just new.
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05:21:20 <\oren\> Bah, I rerely have a cold that last more than 2 days
05:22:37 <Newyorkadam> I managed to do in brainfuck in 324 characters what a program did in 302!!
05:27:24 <Newyorkadam> prints out “See ya in another life, brotha!" - Desmond Hume”
05:29:03 <BloodGod> Nice. I made a program in befunge-98 (1903 characters) that does **basically** the same thing a program i made in C (2254 characters) does
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06:16:17 <quintopia> hmm i wonder if the inventor of su doku was envisioning a 3x3x3x3 4-cube. i wonder if the original notes said "every axis-aligned hyperplane slices through exactly the digits 1-9 in some order"
06:51:18 <zzo38> Karplusan Forest will damage you immediately and City of Brass will damage you later so you still get a chance to do other stuff. Isn't it?
07:20:43 <lifthrasiir> idea: a command line sudoku game which sits in the login shell of the user `doku` so that `su doku` runs it
07:40:28 <zzo38> I have made up several more Magic: the Gathering cards as well as a new puzzle.
07:52:42 <zzo38> You can use " dd cbs=1 conv=unblock 2> /dev/null | tr \\n +" instead of "utftovlq 8w | tr \\0 +"
07:56:37 <^v> :( i feel like every time i join a community there is nobody on my skill level
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12:48:51 <b_jonas> my mobile phone is like an old video game. there's a menu where if I enter the menu and start scrolling it rightaway, it scrolls slow, but if I instead wait a few deciseconds and then start scrolling, it scrolls much faster, so the latter is faster if I want to move enough.
13:25:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45783&oldid=45782 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Fibonacci sequence */
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14:04:57 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 23h 30m 49s ago: Never!
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14:44:29 <\oren\> I added 龍根案梅械植業極様標横橋機残殺毒波泣注泳
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14:45:51 <b_jonas> \oren\: can't watch now, I'm busy doing real life stuff
14:46:10 <boily> hellørjan, b_jhellonas, he\\oren\!
14:46:29 <boily> \oren\: progressing through the kyōiku?
14:46:29 <b_jonas> also mesing up my computer and stuff like that
14:46:37 <boily> computers are real life.
15:05:24 <lifthrasiir> working on the contour extraction, for the preparation of the real font
15:05:44 <lifthrasiir> frankly speaking that's annoying than drawing glyphs :S
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15:09:28 <tswett> So I'm calling my language Quendle for the time being.
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15:51:21 <boily> \oren\: have you anointed your printer with the blood of your enemies? filled its ink cartridges with dark ichor from abyssal depths? turned it off and on again?
15:57:41 <\oren\> I took out the ink and did the ink shaking dance, that got it working
15:59:22 <oerjan> did you use a pentagram for dancing in
16:00:58 <oerjan> boily: now i'm imagining tech support for supervillains
16:01:53 <b_jonas> a pentagram with candles, and an altar stained with the blood of previous sacrifices?
16:02:51 <oerjan> now i'm disappointed by a lack of youtube hits
16:05:33 <oerjan> slightly encouraged by getting this hit from "necromancer tech support" http://necrodancer.com/faq.php
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16:51:47 <quintopia> why doesnt http://esolangs.org/wiki/MATL show up on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Golfing_language ? Neither does Seriously.
16:52:53 <oerjan> maybe it's that old caching bug
16:54:03 <oerjan> well on https, and i'm logged in.
16:54:50 <Taneb> Shows up logged in over http and https
16:54:58 <Taneb> Doesn't show up logged out on either
16:55:05 <oerjan> huh i see 11 when logged in, but only 5 without
16:56:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45784&oldid=44566 * Oerjan * (+1) ye olde caching bug workaround
16:57:17 <oerjan> mind you, it might be the same with severals categories
17:07:14 <quintopia> ah. do anonymous users get cached versions?
17:08:02 <oerjan> and there is/was a bug for Categories where they don't get recached unless you edit the category page itself
17:08:30 <oerjan> ...i suppose it must still be there, since those languages are new
17:09:15 <oerjan> @ask fizzie any idea how to fix the category caching bug on the wiki? see logs.
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17:58:07 <fizzie> oerjan: No idea. Is this some sort of a know MediaWiki thing?
17:58:50 <fizzie> I've been a bit lax in updating the soft ware, but I'll get to that one of these days.
17:59:48 <boily> spoken like a true sysadmin.
18:00:23 <boily> oerjan: québécois word of the day: "amodné" (subjective spelling).
18:00:47 <fizzie> Yeah, based on some quick browsing, it sounds like it's our use of $wgUseFileCache = true; which is self-admittedly "simplistic".
18:03:49 <fizzie> Or at least could be. The documentation says special pages aren't cached, but maybe categories aren't special.
18:09:26 <fizzie> I didn't find any caches on the server, though.
18:09:40 <fizzie> (Other than some js/css stuff.)
18:09:53 <tswett> boily: is that pronounced something like /amodne/?
18:10:16 <oerjan> we've discussed this bug before, maybe ais523 remembers something.
18:11:34 <oerjan> from https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Category#Adding_a_category_by_using_a_template "When you edit an article to add a category tag directly, the list of category members is updated immediately when the page is saved."
18:11:46 <oerjan> so it's clearly not _supposed_ to work this way in general.
18:13:11 <fizzie> cache/4/44/Category%3AGolfing_language.html says "This page was last modified on 5 December 2015, at 16:55" and "The following 11 pages are in this category, out of 11 total."
18:13:47 <olsner> boily: what does that mean?
18:13:59 <fizzie> Unless you/someone did something manual to make it refresh.
18:14:25 <fizzie> Any other examples of stale categories I could check for in the file cache?
18:15:10 <tswett> olsner: past participle of "amodner".
18:15:37 <oerjan> fizzie: yes, i used a "null edit" on that particular page.
18:16:04 <oerjan> although it is possible that a Purge would have been enough, if i had remembered it.
18:17:06 <fizzie> cache/e/ea/Category%3AStack-based.html doesn't contain MATL, and says "This page was last modified on 13 February 2006, at 14:44."
18:17:07 <oerjan> fizzie: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Stack-based
18:17:16 <fizzie> Got there a bit ahead of you.
18:17:53 <fizzie> Yeah, it seems like it's quite wrong. Incidentally, how stale is it -- how many entries there are logged in?
18:18:07 <fizzie> (171 in the cached one.)
18:18:41 <fizzie> <!-- Cached 20150526173050 --> oh, there's even a comment
18:19:32 <oerjan> that recently? then it must occasionally get cached...
18:20:16 <fizzie> I think it's supposed to work; there's some stuff about invalidation in the docs.
18:20:24 <fizzie> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual_talk:File_cache#category_pages_in_cache_do_not_get_updated -- but other people have had problems with it.
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18:21:01 <fizzie> There's a &action=purge workaround mentioned, but not whether it's fixed in some version.
18:21:17 <boily> tswett: close, but very not quite :D
18:21:33 <fizzie> Both linked-to bug reports are still open.
18:22:04 <boily> olsner: a butchered conflagration of "à un moment donné": "at a given moment". figuratively "eventually", probably close to inch'allah.
18:22:32 <fizzie> Well, one was closed as a dupe of the first one.
18:25:17 <lambdabot> EGLL 051820Z AUTO 22017KT 9999 BKN023 13/08 Q1016 NOSIG
18:25:26 <fizzie> It's so bizarre, 13 degrees in December.
18:26:51 <lambdabot> LOWI 051820Z VRB01KT CAVOK 01/M01 Q1032 NOSIG
18:26:58 <boily> fizzie: that's outrageous!
18:27:01 <int-e> I don't know what you're talking about.
18:27:01 <lambdabot> CYUL 051800Z 24016KT 15SM OVC023 06/01 A3061 RMK SC8 SLP366
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18:30:10 <oerjan> fizzie: i see some mention of simply deleting the cached category files
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18:32:27 <flaw600> hello all. I'm trying to shorten the following brainfuck code and was wondering if there was a way to do it
18:32:32 <flaw600> ++++++++[>++++>++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++<<<<<<-]
18:33:04 <oerjan> was that made by bf_txtgen
18:35:25 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, I assume I could do that every now and then as a crummy workaround.
18:36:20 <flaw600> oh sorry, wasn't meant for me
18:36:46 <oerjan> it looks very much similar to what bf_txtgen puts at the beginning
18:36:56 <oerjan> !bf_txtgen Hello, world!
18:36:58 <flaw600> oh? then no, it wasn't made by a textgen. By me
18:37:06 <EgoBot> 125 +++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++++++>+++++>+<<<<-]>.>++.+++++++..+++.>-.------------.<++++++++.--------.+++.------.--------.>+.>+. [836]
18:37:54 <flaw600> I mean. I studied Wikipedia's Hello World and based it off of that so the general idea's the same but it was by me
18:38:02 <oerjan> > 8*length"+++++++++++++++"
18:38:57 <boily> flaw600: o hai! you should use multiplication tables. http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants
18:39:46 <oerjan> boily: i don't think that's going to be shorter for initializing several cells
18:40:09 <int-e> hmmm... something like >++++>++++++>++>+>+>+[[<+>>++++++++<-]<]> ?
18:40:42 <flaw600> I think that's an infinite loop
18:41:19 <oerjan> flaw600: you could try experimenting with making the initial ++++++++ a different length (say twice as long). although int-e looks like he has a smarter idea.
18:41:20 <fizzie> Depending on how exactly it needs to be equivalent, a nested ++++++++++[->+>+>+>+<<<<-]>++>+++>++++>+++++ replacing some of ++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++<<<< might be worth it.
18:41:22 <flaw600> boily: I think it'd be longer to use that for initializing several cells, but thanks :)
18:41:41 <fizzie> If you don't mind a gap.
18:42:28 <flaw600> as far as equivalencies go, I just need the contents of the cells to be the same, but the actual position doesn't need to be fixed
18:45:33 <flaw600> the idea is that I'd need 8*4, 8*10, and then 8*12...8*15. The order in which those appear is not as important to me
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18:49:07 <oerjan> right, i think int-e is on the right track
18:49:36 <oerjan> <int-e> hmmm... something like >++++>++++++>++>+>+>+[[<+>>++++++++<-]<]> ?
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18:50:21 <boily> the sun is up. time to sleep.
18:50:49 <oerjan> ^bf >++++>++++++>++>+>+>+[[<+>>++++++++<-]<]>[.>]
18:50:52 <int-e> >>++++>++++++>++>+>+>+>+[<]>>[<[>+<<++++++++>-]>>]<<<[<] actually produces the right numbers, but the [<] in there are silly.
18:50:57 <boily> quinthellopia. no?
18:51:06 <quintopia> did you stay up all night without me?
18:51:55 <boily> nope. I slept a full 8 hours as usual. but I need a nap :)
18:52:05 <oerjan> int-e: well he said he didn't mind the order, so you could reverse them
18:52:14 <quintopia> you do a very good job of leaving when i get here EVERY DAMN DAY
18:52:39 <flaw600> I mean I like the order as is since it's in my order anyway, but yeah, the order itself itself isn't as important. thanks int-e :)
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18:53:16 <int-e> >+>+>+>+>++>++++++>++++<[>[<+>>++++++++<-]<<]>>> produces the same numbers in reverse order and places the pointer on the 8*15
18:53:38 <quintopia> it's been a long time since this channel was BFgolf
18:54:42 <quintopia> there's a really good program for producing fairly short versions of various strings (not perfect, but better than bf_txtgen in most cases)
18:54:49 * oerjan has a hunch flaw600 might want to start on the 8*10
18:55:35 <flaw600> yeah I do actually, thanks oerjan. But thanks you two. I was trying to get something like that (the >+>+>+ thing) but I'm new to bf so I couldn't figure it out
18:56:07 <oerjan> well int-e did most of the thinking because i'm too lazy :)
18:56:52 <flaw600> quintopia: there's a program? I haven't seen one that bests what I'd written in terms of code length. Would you mind linking me? That said, I like doing stuff outside of generators cause it helps me learn
18:57:15 <flaw600> quintopia: 32, 80, 96, 104, 112, 120
18:57:17 <oerjan> @ask But will you be J.S. or P.D.Q.?
18:57:24 <oerjan> @ask boily But will you be J.S. or P.D.Q.?
18:57:25 <int-e> > map (chr . (8*)) [4,10,12,13,14,15]
19:00:15 <quintopia> flaw600: http://www.49-6-dev.net/downloads/bfcompopowpit.zip
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19:02:11 <flaw600> cool thanks. What I'm trying to print out is "This language is easy!!!" but I'm trying to do it w/o a generator b/c a) I haven't seen one that bests 206 (well, now 171) and two, I'm trying to learn and imo it's hard to understand something you didn't write yourself
19:02:36 <flaw600> thanks int-e for the help :)
19:04:50 <quintopia> well that file apparently doesn't open?
19:05:45 <flaw600> like it's a corrupted file?
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19:13:35 <flaw600> at any rate, I really appreciate the help all. At the very least, it's helped me understand pointers a lot better (you all and brainfuck in general)
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19:27:04 <int-e> ^bf ++++[>++++<-]>[>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++<<<<-]>++++.>++++++++.+.>+++.>.<-------.<--------.>++.<++++++.>+++++++.<------.++++++.--.>>.<<++++.>--.>.<<----.----.>.++++++.>+...
19:27:05 <fungot> This language is easy!!!
19:31:14 <int-e> (lucky me, that's 170 characters)
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19:33:39 <flaw600> what'd you do that with? yourself or a generator?
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19:34:16 <flaw600> >>++++>++++++>++>+>+>+>+[<]>>[<[>+<<++++++++>-]>>]<<<[<]>>++++.>>.+.>+++.<<<<.>>>+++.<+.>++.<++++++.>>++.<<------.++++++.--.<<.>>++++.>>--.<<<<.>>----.----.>>.>+.<<<<<+...
19:34:32 <int-e> (with the idea that perhaps 6 cells are too many)
19:34:58 <flaw600> ^bf >>++++>++++++>++>+>+>+>+[<]>>[<[>+<<++++++++>-]>>]<<<[<]>>++++.>>.+.>+++.<<<<.>>>+++.<+.>++.<++++++.>>++.<<------.++++++.--.<<.>>++++.>>--.<<<<.>>----.----.>>.>+.<<<<<+...
19:34:58 <fungot> This language is easy!!!
19:35:46 <int-e> There's a trade-off: Using more cells means larger initialization code and more characters used for traveling (< and >)... it's not clear what the best choice is.
19:36:20 <flaw600> but given the 1 char diff idrc. thanks though :)
19:36:36 <flaw600> it looks like our code is fairly similar apart from the table initialization
19:37:17 <int-e> sure. there's not much room for using loops here
19:38:33 <flaw600> ah so you did 16 instead of 8?
19:39:40 <int-e> right, that's another trade-off.
19:40:11 <int-e> (worse granularity, but fewer pluses inside the second loop)
19:40:19 <flaw600> yeah. more plusses and minuses when getting to the right ASCII character right?
19:42:06 <int-e> there's some more tricks like this that one could try (relying on overflow)
19:42:07 <tswett> It's kind of ironic for BF to teach pointers, seeing as how it doesn't have any.
19:43:48 <flaw600> tswett: it doesn't but it explains the concept to me better than a c/C++ class/book
19:44:26 <quintopia> the program i linked (if it can be made to unzip and run) basically optimizes over number of cells and difference between cells to see which one gives the shortest source
19:45:02 <flaw600> quintopia: cool. I'll take a look at some point, but I wanna feel some pride in my code this time around :p
19:45:23 <flaw600> hello world is basic but teaches a lot :p
19:46:23 <flaw600> tswett: ironically code.sh uses 'pointers' :p
19:46:30 <int-e> "I wanted to write a hello world program with fewer than 300 characters so I had to learn about loops..."
19:47:06 <tswett> Hey, which 10-character brainfuck program runs . the greatest number of times?
19:47:10 <flaw600> not my fault that bf is ultra verbose
19:47:31 <tswett> Assume there are infinitely many cells, each holds a byte, you can't input, and going to the left of the initial cell causes the program to stab you in the face.
19:47:48 <int-e> unless you want to copy input to output: ,[.,] is hard to beat
19:48:09 <tswett> By "unless" do you mean "if"?
19:48:47 <int-e> I don't think so; I was refering to "bf is ultra verbose"
19:49:19 <flaw600> int-e: I meant compared to higher level languages
19:49:31 <flaw600> hello world is a lot shorter in HLLs
19:50:07 <flaw600> but admitedly, BF isn't always verobse
19:51:11 <tswett> There's this cute Haskell program:
19:52:19 <tswett> `run echo '#!/bin/rm' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
19:52:25 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
19:52:51 <int-e> `` chmod -w bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
19:53:20 <tswett> `run echo '#!/bin/rm -f' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
19:53:21 <HackEgo> bash: bin/you-can-only-run-this-once: Permission denied
19:54:46 <int-e> tswett: also, what about symlinking the program?
19:55:03 <tswett> I don't actually know what that does.
19:55:18 <tswett> `run echo '#!/bin/echo' > bin/echo-this
19:55:28 <tswett> `run ln -s echo-this bin/echo-that
19:55:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/echo-this: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/echo-this: cannot execute: Permission denied
19:55:40 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/echo-this
19:55:41 <flaw600> can someone explain symlinking? I've never understood that really beyond how TM uses it
19:56:46 <tswett> flaw600: well, a symbolic link is pretty much just a text file containing a filename. The special thing about it is that when you ask Linux to open up a symbolic link, it will generally pretend you asked it to open up the target file instead.
19:56:58 <int-e> flaw600: I don't get the question. "symlink" is a contraction of "symbolic link", which is a reference on a file system to another file (or directory) by name.
19:57:12 <int-e> (I didn't get the TM there)
19:57:34 <flaw600> int-e: Time Machine. I know that's how TM saves backup space but I didn't really understand how it worked
19:57:47 <tswett> So, I just told Linux to run /hackenv/bin/echo-that. Linux then saw that /hackenv/bin/echo-that is a symbolic link file containing the filename "echo-this", so it then ran /hackenv/bin/echo-this instead.
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20:09:03 <tswett> Symbolic links: not very similar to pointers!
20:09:21 <tswett> I mean, the concept is similar, but the behavior isn't.
20:10:57 <int-e> there's a funny analogy there... where mounting file systems becomes page table manipulation...
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20:43:07 <tswett> `run rm bin/echo-th{is,at}
20:43:29 <tswett> `run chmod +w bin/you-can-only-run-this-once; echo '#!/bin/rm -f' > bin/you-can-only-run-this-once; chmod -w bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
20:59:19 <int-e> `` you-can-only-run-this-once canary
20:59:33 <int-e> `` which you-can-only-run-this-once
20:59:35 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
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21:01:53 <int-e> `you-can-only-run-this-once -i
21:02:24 <HackEgo> /bin/rm: remove regular file `/hackenv/bin/you-can-only-run-this-once'?
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21:45:23 <B1ood> Goodbye #esoteric, I will be back soon.
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23:02:17 <int-e> `` tr a-z n-za-m <<<szxrdftcyu
23:05:24 <\oren\> that wasn't a code it was me rolling something over my keyboard
23:06:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:ORBAT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45785&oldid=10109 * 62.116.219.97 * (-59) Remove dead link
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23:13:34 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 4h 16m 9s ago: But will you be J.S. or P.D.Q.?
23:34:17 <boily> today is an undo day. I slept!
23:47:30 <boily> myself. it's an un-do day.
23:51:14 <Taneb> I went to a workshop on software verification