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00:28:07 <izabera> cause causes effect, effect doesn't effect cause
00:31:07 <Tat-Tvam-Asi> izabera> but are they different?.. are they two object different? or are they onlyone
00:32:17 <myname> cause is the reason an effect occurs
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01:17:45 <HackEgo> A photograph is a device for creating photograms.
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03:54:20 <Sgeo> At least I'm on my computer again
04:52:06 <zzo38> How would characters of the level20.tex to compare with colors of mana of Magic: the Gathering?
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05:04:24 <zzo38> I don't know the problem
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05:04:39 <hppavilion[wc]> In other news, there's a new data type I'd like to see languages implementing, and thus will be including in the TypeMaker/TypeFactory/Factory stdlib most likely
05:05:43 <hppavilion[wc]> Basically, a fuzz of bitwidth w is equal to, with the unsigned integer n that its encoding represents, n/2**w
05:06:06 <hppavilion[wc]> So basically, is is used for representing values in fuzzy logic or members of fuzzy sets
05:11:44 <zzo38> Is that similar to the numeric data type in Kvikkalkul?
05:15:10 <zzo38> In Kvikkalkul it is signed with one's complement, although it seems similar.
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05:45:51 <hppavilion[wc]> The <fuzzy> type has a minimum value of 0 and a maximum of 1; essentially, it's fixed point with the decimal point at the very beginning
05:46:34 <hppavilion[wc]> On a completetly unrelated note, I need detailed (but understandable) informtion on the exact behavior of Floating Point on machines for my language
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06:28:01 <Sgeo> @tell hppavilion[wc] http://www.h-schmidt.net/FloatConverter/IEEE754.html
06:31:27 <Sgeo> I probably should have tried to learn Hebrew BEFORE my trip to Israel
06:31:56 <shachaf> The first time I showed up there I didn't speak any Hebrew.
06:35:32 <Sgeo> Merry Christmas!
06:50:44 <coppro> the official version is 6.c (Christmas)
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06:55:33 <Elronnd> Ugh, but my OS's pkg repos haven't upgraded yet
07:06:21 <coppro> Well, perl 6 itself was released
07:06:42 <coppro> Rakudo also had a release, but it doesn't claim to implent Perl 6 100% correctly.
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09:20:09 <oerjan> <hppavilion[wc]> Basically, a fuzz of bitwidth w is equal to, with the unsigned integer n that its encoding represents, n/2**w <-- i think that doesn't include 1, which may be a bit awkward. also, i'd call that a probability.
09:20:22 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: But n/2**w isn't quite doing that
09:20:52 <zzo38> (Also, I already said it isn't the same; the type in kvikkalkul is signed and yours is unsigned so that is already different)
09:21:02 <zzo38> The same problem oerjan mentioned
09:21:41 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, in addition, it's nothing like kvikkalkul's numeric IIRC
09:22:04 <zzo38> Something such as n/(2**w+1) has the correct range but may result with strange calculations.
09:23:19 <oerjan> i think conflating 0 and 1 is inevitable if you have 0 bits
09:24:00 <zzo38> I do mean n/(2**w+1) but it might make multiplication more difficult?
09:24:23 <oerjan> zzo38: no, you do mean -
09:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> So the `void fuzz` type is equal to all real numbers. And complex ones, probably
09:25:31 <oerjan> just call it the tao. which is incidentally also equal to tau.
09:25:35 <hppavilion[1]> Because, from the standpoint of what happens when you graph it, 0/0 is equal to all possible slopes
09:25:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: In my MathLISP math.constants library I included pi, tau, and pau
09:26:15 <hppavilion[1]> (and e and stuff, of course. But that's not really important)
09:26:32 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to propose we stop using the constant "e" and start using "j"
09:28:35 <hppavilion[1]> because k is the pos('e')*12%25+1th letter of the alphabet
09:29:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: j is already taken by the engineers as a synonym for i.
09:29:58 <hppavilion[1]> Jesus, mathematicians should probably speak Mandarin
09:30:01 <oerjan> well, current, but i think that's capitalized.
09:30:39 <oerjan> I FAIL TO SEE THE PROBLEM
09:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> Would've been funnIer If you capItalIzed everythIng /except/ "I" in that sentence
09:33:04 <oerjan> <Sgeo> I probably should have tried to learn Hebrew BEFORE my trip to Israel <-- i hear it takes 10 years to get proficient enough to read a newspaper, or something like that.
09:36:11 <shachaf> oerjan: took me less than that hth
09:36:15 <oerjan> mandarin/hebrew deathmatch: which has the worst writing system?
09:36:28 <oerjan> shachaf: DON'T RUIN SCIENCE WITH YOUR FACTS
09:36:39 <shachaf> hebrew's writing system is pretty simple
09:37:34 <oerjan> in mandarin, the writing tells you more than the pronunciation does. in hebrew, less.
09:38:08 <shachaf> if you're confused about a word you can look it up letter by letter in a dictionary
09:38:36 <oerjan> that doesn't help when you're confused about which grammatical form it is, and they're written the same.
09:38:50 <oerjan> (of course mandarin cheats by not having grammatical forms)
09:39:49 <shachaf> i guess it is kind of complicated sometimes
09:40:08 <shachaf> do you have an example of the sort of thing you mean twh
09:40:35 <oerjan> all i know is that most of the inflections are in the vowels, which are not written hth
09:40:51 <oerjan> (what, you expect me to know hebrew? or mandarin for that matter.)
09:42:18 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ktiv_hasar_niqqud yo
09:48:39 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1],
09:48:58 <Sgeo> http://www.h-schmidt.net/FloatConverter/IEEE754.html
09:49:45 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], but in parents' house, with no easy access to a shower, and completely unable to execute my old routine
09:49:57 <Sgeo> And the constant possibility of seeing my step-mom
09:50:14 <Sgeo> So I don't feel back. I feel like I just left a pleasant vacation and into an unpleasant one
09:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> I got the world renderer working (well, one of them. There'll be two: A text-based one and a super-leet gzip'd JSON one)
09:52:11 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes I do mean - but I am tired at this time and make mistakes
09:52:40 <zzo38> Sometimes I make a lot of mistakes. I certainly do mean - but sometimes I type something else by mistake
09:55:35 <oerjan> shachaf: ok i guess mandarin wins, then.
09:56:10 <shachaf> a chinese friend told me i should learn mandarin tdnh
09:56:49 <myname> shachaf: ask him about the sesame credit
09:57:13 <myname> i am curious about it being the stuff youtube said
09:57:47 <shachaf> i wonder how gendered it is
09:58:05 <shachaf> maybe i should just learn finnish
10:00:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: From my year and a half of after school mandarin, I can tell you they beat english by having a gender-neutral pronoun. Really, ONLY a gender neutral pronoun.
10:00:38 <hppavilion[1]> To angelicize it, Tah shir wah'd mae-mae means "(s)he is my little sister"
10:01:03 <hppavilion[1]> So it's also better in that there isn't a special possessive for yourself, it's just me's
10:01:39 <myname> well, being better than english is not that hard
10:01:58 <hppavilion[1]> I should invent, and then learn, a spoken language based on Combinatory Logic
10:02:36 <hppavilion[1]> myname: True. But "being better than english" is still a pretty big step in being a not-entirely-shit language
10:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> How would you say "she kicked the bucket" in Combinese?
10:03:38 <hppavilion[1]> (Spoken language based on Semi-Thue Systems, or Turing Machines. Lulz.)
10:03:50 <myname> i actually like french way more than english. i nearly don't speak a word in it, though
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10:04:10 <hppavilion[1]> "From now on, when I use the string 'horse' it is to be interpretted as 'HEIL SATAN'"
10:04:55 <myname> oh look, that HEIL SATAN broke a leg
10:05:21 <HackEgo> sat-buddhi: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
10:05:40 <myname> why are there so for relcomes these days?
10:05:41 <hppavilion[1]> My Little HEIL SATAN, My Little HEIL SATAN, ah-ah-ah-ah...
10:06:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: stop that, i'm trying to unconfuse sat-buddhi about what this channel is about
10:06:26 <myname> pony isn't the same as horse
10:06:41 <myname> oerjan: it's about nerds
10:06:45 <hppavilion[1]> Note that the Semi-Thue System language is based on meaning rather than on literal representation
10:07:34 <oerjan> myname: also, it's because of the relcome haters
10:08:25 <oerjan> with their powerful frowns
10:08:30 <hppavilion[1]> Would it be acceptable to document esoteric non-programming languages on the wiki?
10:08:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm gonna make an executive decision: no.
10:09:02 <hppavilion[1]> For example, a language designed to be spoken or a markup language
10:09:18 <oerjan> well, for spoken. markup could pass.
10:09:43 <oerjan> there's afaik a conlang community.
10:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Dammit, now we need a sister wiki for spoken languages xD
10:09:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But they don't have a beautiful wiki like we do
10:10:00 <oerjan> (i used to subscribe to their list.)
10:10:14 <hppavilion[1]> Also, what if it was a spoken language that is deeply rooted in CS?
10:10:25 <hppavilion[1]> For example, the aforementioned Combinatory Logic Spoken Language
10:10:31 <myname> i guess the conlang wiki is not intended for fun stuff?
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10:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> Technically, it's called an "esolang", not an "esoproglang", so...
10:13:05 * oerjan spots wikia and recoils
10:13:31 <hppavilion[1]> Not to mention that any spoken language can, in theory, be understood by a computer
10:14:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: One could argue that that technically makes any language to which a meaning can be assigned a programming language
10:15:03 <myname> i am not sure if arguing is the best thing you can do here
10:15:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: stop pouring oil on our slopes
10:15:24 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, the only language to which meaning /can't/ be assigned is a single-string language
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10:57:52 <myname> wait, what? you can use the 1/2 sign in perl6 to get a 0.5?
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12:24:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45996&oldid=45664 * LegionMammal978 * (+24)
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13:40:05 <helyx> !zjoust helyx_FightAndFlight (>)*8+(<)*7 ((-)*13>(+)*13>)*4(([-{([+{[-]}])%8}])%4>)*21
13:40:06 <zemhill> helyx.helyx_FightAndFlight: points -14.14, score 11.08, rank 47/47
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13:41:02 <zemhill> oerjan.test: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47
13:41:18 <oerjan> i guess it's not pessimal
13:41:21 <zemhill> oerjan.test: points -33.14, score 3.04, rank 47/47 (--)
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13:57:06 <boily> fungot: ghuuuuuurgh.
13:57:06 <fungot> boily: write is a function of 1 argument. what is tlo? or is that death?
13:57:40 <boily> fungot: write is a function of one argument. what's a tlo? a Three Letter Optimisation? death is too much tourtière.
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14:15:12 <arararara> in what language shall thou spell to bring freebsd to work? >inb4 enochian or brainfuck
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14:24:04 <HackEgo> A program is an image created by means of prography.
14:51:22 <HackEgo> lie bracket/Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them.
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19:12:52 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/1\*1
19:13:06 <boily> @tell mroman I mapole you.
19:13:35 <boily> @tell mroman (with great force and momentum, might I add.)
19:13:41 <boily> @tell mroman (tsé.)
19:16:32 <HackEgo> page/The smallest floating-point number is known as pages. Fungot discovered it.
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20:15:49 <hppavilion[1]> I just had an amazing idea for an improved legal system
20:16:52 <hppavilion[1]> Consider the following: Formal logic is, largely, based on assumptions called "axioms" that are turned into "theorems" through "proofs"- you take the axioms and laws, put them together, and you get something that must be true
20:17:54 <hppavilion[1]> For example, if you have the axioms T->a, a->b and the law of syllogism, you can derive that T->b, and therefor b.
20:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> In law, we have "higher law" which is a base set of rules that it is against the rules to break.
20:18:51 <hppavilion[1]> We also have "[lower] laws", which are also rules that you can't break, but aren't assumed at the beginning necessarily
20:19:29 <hppavilion[1]> In a way, axioms correspond to higher laws and theorems to lower laws
20:19:49 <hppavilion[1]> I am going to call this the Jefferson-Howard Correspondence, just because it sounds funny
20:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> However, one (though not the necessarily the only) major thing is different about the way logic and laws work is this:
20:21:31 <hppavilion[1]> In normal formal logic, theorems are derived from axioms. In "legal logic", which is what I'm calling the formalization of law, theorems come out of thin air and apply if and only if they do not contradict with the axioms
20:23:21 <hppavilion[1]> So in Legal Logic (which might already be a thing, but I doubt it), from the axiom set `A={a}` one can derive the thorem `b` because `~b /<< A` (where ~ is logical NOT and /<< is IS NOT AN ITEM OF)
20:23:55 <hppavilion[1]> Which leads to lots of issues, because you can pretty much derive anything
20:24:07 <hppavilion[1]> Which leads to my idea for an improved legal system
20:24:51 <hppavilion[1]> What if, instead of having higher law and lower law which higher law must not contradict, we had a (larger) set of higher law axioms, and any lower law established must be derived from these axioms
20:27:02 <hppavilion[1]> There would, of course, be a process to add higher law, but it would take much longer and be more difficult, and would include a 5-year period in which government-employed mathematicians must test it for consistency with the new axiom (not really sure how consistency works, but if it's possible to prove consistency, that would pretty much be the goal), and at the end of which it must be voted on by the population.
20:28:09 <hppavilion[1]> The constitution of this theoretical nation would, of course, include all axioms both in english (though this would have no real legal standing) and in a Formal Logic
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20:32:49 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: see also my thesis "The propositional nomic"
20:33:01 <coppro> it's in the agora archives somewhere
20:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> By syllogism, one can derive the Curry-Jefferson correspondence, and thus prove that all Computer Scientists are really just lawyers who type a random mix of symbols
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20:44:14 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: ⊼ is good for NAND hth, though I think that the just-now made up symbol !∧, ~∧, or ¬∧ is the best IMHO, because it expresses that it is "NOT AND"
20:45:18 <hppavilion[1]> Which one you use depends on which symbol you use for NOT, of course, though you could certainly use a different prefix to the operator for clarity (e.g. ¬ for NOT but ~∧ for AND, such as to more clearly distinguish them)
20:46:35 <hppavilion[1]> Use of | for NAND is just confusing for computer scientists. My system only requires that you memorize the symbols for AND, OR, and the three possibilities for NOT
20:48:24 <hppavilion[1]> And XOR, I suppose. ⊻ works for XOR, but if it is the only modified AND or OR used in the expression, it gets confusing due to line location
20:49:54 <hppavilion[1]> Also, of course, ->, which the inverse for could probably be written as any of -/>, ~->, !->, ¬->, or even ~>
20:52:57 <hppavilion[1]> coppro: In any good game of Nomic, `|{p|(p ∈ P) ∧ A(p)}| = i` hth
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21:07:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RFOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45997&oldid=45994 * 78.52.138.216 * (-3) /* Example Code */
21:08:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RFOL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45998&oldid=45997 * 78.52.138.216 * (-1) cleanup
21:16:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subskin]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45999&oldid=20080 * 78.52.138.216 * (+8) /* Examples */
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23:12:58 <zzo38> Consecrated Sphinx, Notion Thief, Donate on Notion Thief, Chromatic Sphere, Krosan Grip on Chromatic Sphere, and then activate Chromatic Sphere in response. It is now difficult for opponent to win at this game.
23:32:52 <zzo38> If you have a complex Bernstein polynomial f(z) and then you want to draw the curve bounded by: (f(z)+i|f'(z)|/f'(z)) and (f(z)-i|f'(z)|/f'(z)) then can it be optimized?
23:39:25 <Sgeo> http://www.ginostuscany.com/
23:39:45 <Sgeo> How does this manage to be half decent (not fully decent though) when it's made by http://www.somelikeithotproductions.com/
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23:46:11 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], did my floating point link help?
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23:56:31 <hppavilion[1]> Given two points represented as 2-tuples a and b, how can I calculate a direction r (in degrees) such that an entity centered at a facing in direction r is pointing towards point b?
23:57:54 <Sgeo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atan2
23:59:19 <Sgeo> Oh, that's traditionally radians, so * 180/PI