00:00:09 <int-e> (Morse code is what "dahl dih dahl dahl" made me think of)
00:00:10 <HackEgo> Royahl Dahhl ihs the kihng ohf Nohrway.
00:00:54 <oerjan> poor harald will be so disappointed that he's no longer the king.
00:01:26 <oerjan> oh that reminds me of something i thought of
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00:10:11 <oerjan> `le/rn remorse/.--. . --- .--. .-.. . / .-- .. - .... / -. --- / .-. . -- --- .-. ... . / .. -. ... .. ... - / --- -. / ... .- -.-- .. -. --. / . ...- . .-. -.-- - .... .. -. --. / .. -. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . --..-- / -... ..- - / --- -. .-.. -.-- / --- -. -.-. . .-.-.-
00:10:15 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig
00:10:31 * oerjan flogs himself --~~~~~~
00:10:40 <oerjan> `culprists wisdom/remorse
00:10:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprists: not found
00:10:47 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/remorse
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00:38:45 <oerjan> <shachaf> what did what's-his-name mean about the vampires twh <-- no clue hth
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00:42:21 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm all about dos AMs `bout dos AMs, no CISC, all about...)
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00:47:21 <oerjan> shachaf: possibly just that they shouldn't punish him for attacking them
00:47:37 <oerjan> but he can attack the high priestess too so...
00:48:14 <mad> kinda wondering... for a directed graph to be turing complete, it needs to have an infinity of non-identical nodes
00:49:23 <oerjan> a directed graph is not by itself a model of computation so cannot be turing complete without something added
00:49:23 <mad> since if it doesn't have an infinity of nodes it can't store an infinite tape...
00:50:26 <mad> and if those nodes are identical (ie the graph has infinite symmetries which makes the nodes identical), then the program can't retrieve the infinite tape from its node position
00:50:57 <mad> oerjan : what's mutable is the position of the currently considered node
00:51:00 <oerjan> mad: a tape doesn't have to be infinite, just growable.
00:51:17 <oerjan> mad: ah so the graph is the state space
00:51:19 <mad> well, it's not infinite at any moment but it must be infinitely growable
00:52:49 <oerjan> well then it's pretty obvious yes
00:54:04 <mad> the other requirement I'm ending up with for turing completeness is kinda weird though...
00:54:53 <oerjan> it seems rather awkward to define exactly what else a graph needs then
00:55:01 <mad> it seems to require multiple different possible "growth rates"... which would explain the wire-crossing problem
00:55:06 <mad> like if you number the nodes
00:55:39 <mad> you can have additive nodes: node 1000 goes to 1017 for instance (+17)
00:56:09 <oerjan> it is enough to have multiplicative nodes, that gives you the ability to encode fractran.
00:56:13 <mad> and multiplicative nodes: node 1000 goes to 2000 (*2) (possibly combined with additive)
00:56:45 <mad> and the reverses (subtractive, divisive with different destinations depending on reminder)
00:57:27 <mad> but I think that as long as you have two different growth scales (like additive and exponential, additive and quadratic etc) then it works
00:57:30 <oerjan> you don't need division with anything but 0 remainder
00:58:25 <oerjan> mad: it is enough to have multiplication and division (with remainder 0) by 2 and 3
00:58:45 <oerjan> if you have an FSA control too
00:59:12 <oerjan> otherwise, add a few more primes
00:59:23 <mad> fsa can be emulated if you have a periodic pattern in some cases I think
00:59:50 <oerjan> i say, take a look at fractran.
00:59:59 <mad> ...which I guess sis the same as adding more primes
01:02:32 <mad> what if you have *3 and /2 and additive?
01:03:05 <mad> it kinda has multiple scales ish but they're like all one-way
01:05:14 <mad> additive scale only is insufficient I think
01:05:58 <mad> since it's equivalent to fsa + one bignum
01:06:14 <mad> (minsky machine is turing complete but it takes fsa + two bignums)
01:06:15 <oerjan> i suspect that won't work. this reminds me very vaguely of my one brush with cstheory.stackexchange http://cstheory.stackexchange.com/questions/21525/conjecture-about-two-counters-automata/29197#29197
01:06:45 <oerjan> although that's really about how 2-cell minsky machine needs its input in very particular format
01:07:32 <mad> well, yeah
01:07:43 <oerjan> hm *3 and /2, are you trying to involve collatz here? :P
01:07:49 <mad> :D :D :D :D
01:08:45 <mad> I guess that's why collatz is hard, it has nearly all the elements of a turing machine and it's hard to tell if it has just enough or just too few
01:11:08 <oerjan> in fact, because of collatz you can at least encode a computation that's very hard to predict the result of
01:13:48 * oerjan wonders if anyone's tried to bound from below the hardness of predicting collatz
01:13:49 <mad> other things that I wonder if they're turing complete are (add n to digit-reversed n, repeat until you get a palindrome) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN8PE3eljdA and (writing an integer as a sum of 3 cubes of integers including negatives) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wymmCdLdPvM
01:14:05 <HackEgo> )ylwM%h"v,G-)7gI:<_s\U:N8{K;f}AlCqͩ"2P \ ړSEu3wfB>Ru+a^̇VxdK̷Őv^9;VrnfwevVTg_/̯,{;Я^DѾ}V1G?hmXvsN,8
01:14:33 <mad> digit-reversing looks like a good method of getting the double-stack you need to get an infinite tape
01:16:51 <izabera> stupid hackego, that breaks my terminal
01:17:17 <ais523> arguably that's a bug in the lient
01:17:59 <ais523> mad: what's with the "until you get a palindrome" halt condition? just because you wanted an arbitrary halt condition?
01:18:04 <izabera> my client works ok but i can't use ^L to see the raw version
01:18:26 <oerjan> ais523: lychrel numbers, e.g. it's unknown if 196 ever gives one
01:19:13 <mad> ais523 : I didn't come up with this, it's just that when I saw it, well, it has wildly varying number of steps and some that seem to go on forever... that's a candidate for turing completeness to me
01:19:40 <oerjan> statistically, it probably doesn't, because once it grows enough heuristically the chances get miniscule that it ever will.
01:20:05 <oerjan> and it has been shown to grow to more than a billion digits.
01:20:12 <oerjan> (without a palindrome)
01:20:49 <mad> what I want to know is... is there a way to program in this system
01:21:15 <ais523> oerjan: I mean, restricting the halt condition just makes TCness proofs harder
01:21:40 <oerjan> mad: you might take a look at Dupdog on our wiki
01:21:56 <oerjan> we don't know how to program that either (or if it's possible)
01:22:10 <mad> once the number gets palindromic I think it just grows following 2^x * n
01:22:16 <oerjan> and i believe ais523 has a few other examples
01:22:25 <ais523> xigxag is the other one
01:22:39 <oerjan> mad: no, it can turn nonpalindromic again
01:22:40 <ais523> although xigxag is a bit different because it grows exponentially in all nontrivial cases
01:22:53 <oerjan> it's not like it's a preserved property
01:23:02 <mad> yeah you're right on that one
01:23:06 <ais523> the question is if you can get Turing behaviour "inside" the string somehow
01:24:50 <oerjan> i never finished my investigation of the mccullough2 machine
01:25:32 <mad> then there's the mandlebrot set that has this kindof property as well
01:25:33 <oerjan> i got to the point where everything either obviously halted, diverged, or went into a weird minsky-like subsystem of <= 6 registers
01:26:16 <oerjan> so theoretically there could still be something TC inside but i doubt there's enough complexity for it
01:26:17 <mad> since it's about something that can halt or not, can potentially have infinitely growable information store (in the digits of the current complex number)
01:27:20 <oerjan> mad: well complex numbers don't necessarily have finite number of digits
01:27:46 <oerjan> although i guess if you start with that, it won't suddenly become infinite
01:28:08 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/McCulloch's_second_machine for people who are having trouble finding the link (it took me a few tries)
01:28:29 <mad> if you chose your z to have rational r and rational i, your current value is always rational no?
01:29:19 <ais523> oerjan: I've been sort-of specializing in weird restricted minskyalikes recently
01:29:30 <ais523> although I assume the rules of this one are bizarrely complex?
01:30:18 <oerjan> bizarre, but not _that_ complex
01:30:44 <mad> my holy grail would be something in the family of a simple recursive equation applied until you hit some halt condition
01:30:51 <mad> ideally fitting on a single line
01:35:23 <oerjan> ais523: the relevant strings are of the form [24]*5[24]+5[24]*, which can be reanalyzed by ignoring all even-length sequences of 4s and then considering lengths of sequences of 2s as registers.
01:36:20 <oerjan> and then you can formulate the further evolution as register shuffling and addition/increments
01:36:38 <mad> if collatz turned out to be turing complete then it would qualify since you can write it as f(x) = (5 * (x mod 2)+1) * x/2 + (x mod 2)
01:37:00 <oerjan> and if you have more than about 6 registers it grows exponentially, while if the 5s ever get joined it halts.
01:39:42 <oerjan> (earlier stages where you have other digits and/or a different number of 5s than two will quickly reduce)
01:41:22 <ais523> mad: err, generalized collatz is turing complete
01:41:40 <oerjan> oh hm i also simplified by looking only at those recurring steps where it starts with a 5
01:41:51 <oerjan> (then you only have two groups of registers)
01:42:02 <mad> ais523 : yes but the ones that are proven turing complete are quite a bit larger no? :D
01:42:03 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, the complexity here is that the number of registers changes over time?
01:43:18 <mad> one thing that would be cool is a turing complete function that gives a rational number if it "halts" and an irrational if it runs forever
01:43:20 <ais523> that makes quite a change to how you program a minskyalike!
01:43:27 <oerjan> and there were more cases than i wanted to do by hand
01:44:06 <mad> and doesn't have an explicit loop, and to get the "loop" you have to compute it with increasing precision
01:44:46 <ais523> mad: haha, I like that
01:44:58 <ais523> but even if it is rational, you can't in general prove it's rational
01:45:26 <mad> or maybe something that is either positive or negative
01:45:56 <mad> but if it's non halting the error range covers 0 forever
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01:51:12 <hppavilion[1]> Wiki's article on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deterministic_finite_automaton starts very morbidly
01:55:07 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
01:55:46 <oerjan> what is "he'll burn in hell for calling Wikipedia "Wiki"" in spanish twh
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01:57:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wiki is a fun abbreviation. It's not like I'm confusing it with anything.
01:57:36 <oerjan> it's not an abbreviation it's a noun hth
01:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course it's a noun. Abbreviations and nouns are not mutually exclusive
01:58:38 <ais523> "the Wiki", or "Wiki", without context, refers to c2 IIRC
01:58:43 <ais523> or maybe some other early wiki
01:58:49 <shachaf> clearly it doesn't in this case
01:58:50 <ais523> not Wikipedia, though, it came later
02:00:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i shall take inspiration for how to punish the british from http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20060306 hth
02:02:04 <shachaf> <oerjan> Something lingering, with boiling oil in it, I fancy.
02:02:38 <shachaf> http://diamond.boisestate.edu/gas/mikado/webopera/mk207d.html hth
02:06:47 <shachaf> oerjan: would have preferred i,i at the beginning wthh
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06:02:11 <oerjan> did scott aaronson break his blog styling
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06:04:35 <HackEgo> catern: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:04:43 <catern> this is a good channel
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06:08:22 <oerjan> i guess it must be on purpose, i don't think it had commenter icons before. but it's lost the comment numbers which everyone used to refer to each other, that's going to be confusing. (not that it wasn't before whenever the numbers shifted for whatever reason.)
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07:46:11 <oerjan> Nom. fnǫrðr Acc. fnǫrð Dat. fnirði Gen. fnarðar
07:46:42 <Taneb> Are you declining icelandic
07:47:59 <shachaf> Taneb: may i offer you some latin
07:49:46 <shachaf> Taneb: would you like some latin
07:50:03 <oerjan> Nom. FNOR Gen. FNORDIS Dat. FNORDI Acc. FNOR Abl. FNORDE Voc. FNOR
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07:53:21 <izabera> https://arin.ga/pbjqXt/raw found some random bf code, then decided to change a couple of things in my interpreter and now the generated code is optimal
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07:54:33 <oerjan> *mumble* *mumble* kolmogorov complexity *mumble*
07:54:58 <FireFly> I don't think it makes sense to say that the generated code is optimal
07:55:11 <FireFly> A sophisticated enough compiler could evaluate things at compile-time
07:55:21 <izabera> well but you have to stop at some point
07:55:30 <oerjan> also it's undecidable to know when it is
07:55:41 <FireFly> One would have to be conservative
07:55:56 <FireFly> the output looks reasonable enough though
07:56:22 <FireFly> apart from, y'know, compiling brainfuck to bash? first time I see that
07:57:49 <izabera> i think it's fast enough to compete with badly written interpreters in any other language
07:57:58 <oerjan> that looks like a simple balanced bf loop. there _are_ some compilers that turn that into simple arithmetic.
07:58:21 <izabera> oerjan: there are no loops in the generated code
08:01:44 <FireFly> oh, nothing wrong with it, just a rather interesting combination of implemetation language and technique :P
08:03:38 <izabera> i should patent it and sell it for a billion dollars
08:06:40 <lifthrasiir> is there a programming language that relies on the structure of recursively subdivided (by horizontal or vertical lines) rectangles?
08:12:10 <oerjan> i dunno but that reminds me of https://esolangs.org/wiki/Memfractal
08:13:16 <oerjan> which i once spent some time trying to see if i could do computation with
08:15:04 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: to be exact, I'm thinking about a programming language which code is either an (CJK) ideograph or an ideograph description sequence that has a recursive rectangular structure
08:15:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Memfractal]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46148&oldid=20662 * Oerjan * (+41) cat
08:15:48 <lifthrasiir> Piet is similar in the regard that it has a block of colors and has a defined transition between them, but less structured.
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08:44:04 <myname> memfractal looks pretty hard
08:44:52 <mroman> tables are naturally horizontal structures
08:44:58 <mroman> while phones are naturally vertical thingies
08:47:31 <myname> where's the starting point of a memfractal program"
08:48:25 <mroman> weirdly enough my phone displays font-size: 1.125em SMALLER than regular text
08:52:30 <mroman> it doesn't properly zoom probably
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08:57:29 <oerjan> myname: hm it doesn't say, although it's "trivial" to reroute. i was going to say it's symmetric but X isn't entirely.
08:57:59 <myname> being symmetrical may be a hard cutoff in terms of computational power
08:58:08 <myname> and trivially rerouting the like
08:59:06 <myname> if the code has to be symmetrical i can't do something like "right side of a box is true, left side is false"
08:59:17 <oerjan> no, the code doesn't have to be symmetric
08:59:32 <oerjan> the _language_ nearly is, except for X.
09:00:00 <oerjan> well it is symmetric by 180 degree rotation, and all except X by 90.
09:00:13 <oerjan> (you need to switch / and \ for the latter)
09:00:17 <myname> the language is symmetric, yeah
09:00:31 <myname> but you still need to define where to enter in some way
09:00:36 <mroman> these mobile phones webbased online emulators suck as well
09:00:42 <mroman> some of them just embed an ifram
09:00:54 <oerjan> well yes, i'm just saying it doesn't matter which edge you choose for that.
09:00:56 <mroman> that's total bullshit.
09:01:29 <myname> @tell zzo38 please specify the starting point of memfractal
09:02:39 <mroman> although in my opinion it's not up to me to fix displaying wide tables for smartphones
09:02:46 <oerjan> oh hm i think when rotating 90 degrees you can replace X by X surrounded by *'s
09:03:02 <mroman> because that's the phone's browser's job, at least it should be.
09:03:06 <oerjan> so you don't need more complicated rerouting
09:04:01 <oerjan> just a simple char -> block replacement
09:04:25 <myname> oerjan: the problem is, that each + basically loses information at that point, doesn't it?
09:06:04 <mroman> http://api.browsershots.org/png/original/56/560d8044d232ba413157d5d3fae54212.png <- lynx needs some fixing too.
09:06:31 <mroman> It doesn't even try to align table cells correctly? and there's no space between </p> and <pre> which looks wrong.
09:06:44 <oerjan> myname: well each recursive copy has its own bit, as it says
09:06:59 <mroman> oh wait. no tables are fine.
09:07:07 <mroman> but the </p><pre> annoys me :(
09:07:43 <myname> oerjan: yeah, but if you don't look exactly where you put your X, you may have a problem with keeping the information, don't you?
09:08:06 <oerjan> myname: i mean you replace an X by an X surrounded on all sides by *s
09:08:17 <oerjan> so there is no bit change in total
09:08:41 <oerjan> you may need to expand the grid to fit, of course
09:09:35 <myname> something like I/O would be nice
09:09:52 <myname> otherwise you have this "memory is your output"-thingie
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09:39:06 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/exps/1.html too bad html can't auto generate references :(
09:42:16 <mroman> also why people have these "to the top" "to bottom" links that scroll with the page (probably position: fixed)
09:42:28 <mroman> that's what browser keyboard shortcuts/mouse gestures are for
09:43:18 <Taneb> mroman: "to the content" and "to/from the footnote" I lke
09:43:37 <mroman> position: fixed usually sucks because it tends to overlap with the content if implemented poorly
09:43:58 <mroman> for example if it's on the left and fixed and you assume there's about 100pixels space on the left before content
09:44:06 <mroman> (let's say you use a margin-left: 10%)
09:44:11 <mroman> that 10% is way smaller on smartphones
09:44:21 <mroman> and the navigation div now overlaps the content
09:44:41 <mroman> because the margin of the content div is now smaller than 100pixels
09:45:20 <mroman> Taneb: yes, but these links should be placed at the top imo
09:45:52 <mroman> and footnotes links are placed within the content so that's not an issue anyway
09:46:14 <Taneb> Yes, ideally the "to the content" should be the first thing on the page
09:46:39 <mroman> although I think jumps to anchors should be the browser history's job
09:47:19 <mroman> so that when you jump to some other place in the content you can easily jump back
09:48:08 <mroman> because making backlinks from footnotes is in my opinion somewhat against the spirit of HTML :D
09:48:20 <mroman> (my idealized version of HTML :))
09:49:04 <mroman> also there's no distinction between id's used for jump targets
09:49:10 <mroman> and ids only used for CSS
09:49:20 <mroman> otherwise browsers could display a document structure on the left for example
09:49:50 <mroman> but since people use ids for all sorts of scripting/styling stuff you'd just probably clutter it
09:50:22 <mroman> the one used for documents, not web applications :D
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09:51:20 <Taneb> What'll you use for web apps
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09:54:18 <mroman> and HTML6 definitely would ignore all javascript :D
09:55:16 <lifthrasiir> don't mind, at that point CSS4 will get Turing-completeness.
09:56:05 <mroman> and be probably restricted to CSS2.1
09:56:20 <mroman> or a restricted subset of CSS3
09:58:09 <FireFly> At this rate epub is basically HTML+related technologies for documents
09:58:49 <mroman> well HTML is a good base for lots of things
09:59:23 <mroman> people now doing UI with HTML
09:59:33 <mroman> and HMTL probably was never supposed to be used for that :D
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11:25:43 <\oren\> "肉片が飛び散っている" -> "Cuts of meat flew and were scattered [like flower petals]" WTF I had no idea the writers of Asahi Shimbun could be so brutal.
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11:33:59 <\oren\> It should be possible to design a programming language in such a way that, like YAML, its format is very flexible, allowing both python-style indentation blocks and C style {} blocks
11:35:21 <\oren\> CSS iirc is already at least a push-down automaton
11:37:30 <\oren\> I want to write a memfractal implementation
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12:06:01 <boily> mynamello, b_jhellonas.
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12:38:58 <mroman> \oren\: and begin ... end blocks
12:39:06 <izabera> my improved bf interpreter can execute mandelbrot.b in only 2h42m31s!!!
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12:40:25 <mroman> is there a benchmark program that terminates in a reasonable amount of time?
12:40:31 <mroman> somewhere within a few minutes?
12:42:13 <izabera> hanoi.b takes less than 50s
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12:48:41 <b_jonas> mroman: what do you want to benchmark?
12:49:47 <FireFly> almost three hours for mandelbrot.b...
12:49:51 <FireFly> but then again, it /is/ bash :P
12:50:11 <izabera> it's a lot faster than it used to be
12:50:26 <izabera> and a lot faster than any other bash interpreter
12:51:29 <mroman> b_jonas: bf interpreters/compilers
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17:24:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Electrodude512 * New user account
17:25:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RSSB]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46149&oldid=31329 * Electrodude512 * (+68) Added my RSSB interpreter to External Resources
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17:54:47 <fizzie> That's so handy: in github, if you've got a commit page of the form https://github.com/account/repo/commit/sha you can just append .patch to get it as a patch.
17:55:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:SPLEMIT21]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46150 * 72.10.123.177 * (+112) Created page with "This is just a copy of HQ9+...~~~~"
17:55:29 <fizzie> I don't understand why there's no "view patch" link in the UI for that. They have the "Raw" view for files, after all.
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18:01:23 <HackEgo> mapole/A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
18:04:24 <int-e> hmm... pound per square inch, an ancient greek unit of pressure
18:05:51 <int-e> (unfortunately, the "pound per square inch" part is real)
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18:44:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46151&oldid=45240 * 72.10.123.177 * (+2) /* Hello, world! */
18:44:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46152&oldid=46151 * 72.10.123.177 * (+1) /* Hello, world! */
18:46:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46153&oldid=44844 * 72.10.123.177 * (+202)
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19:22:33 <fizzie> What, a CR instead of a LF?
19:23:14 <fizzie> (Re the Befunge edits, they changed the old "!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@ to 94+"!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@ instead of the common 55+ or 25* that you normally see.)
19:23:54 <fizzie> Also I'm not that sure about both words being capitalized either.
19:25:24 * APic grins manically.
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20:11:04 <mauris_> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW.
20:11:21 <shachaf> can you /nick mauris so i can quotify that
20:11:25 <hppavilion[1]> A Minsky machine... except instead of integer registers, the registers are sets with the according operations changed
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20:11:41 <hppavilion[1]> One of the operations follows an alternate state transition if the set is empty
20:11:49 <shachaf> wait, is the period canonical?
20:12:18 <shachaf> so what's the canonical version
20:12:26 <mauris> ok this time for quotableness:
20:12:27 <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
20:12:42 <shachaf> `addquote <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
20:12:44 <HackEgo> 1260) <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
20:12:47 <shachaf> we need more unicode poetry
20:13:39 <HackEgo> 1136) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
20:14:05 <mauris> HEXAGRAM FOR THE CREATIVE HEAVEN / MATHEMATICAL BOLD DIGIT SEVEN / KANGXI RADICAL WHITE / VERTICAL TRAFFIC LIGHT / NEGATIVE CIRCLED NUMBER ELEVEN
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20:47:51 <hppavilion[1]> Where the only way to accomplish anything is through debugging
20:51:51 <hppavilion[1]> myname: No, using debugging is how you figure out how to do somethign
20:52:07 <myname> ah, c++ with boost, then?
20:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What I'm getting at is a language that requires debugging to actually /program/, even if you are a programming genius
20:55:36 * int-e used to write small assembly programs in debug.com (later debug.exe)
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21:00:46 <FireFly> mauris: those are nice poems
21:01:36 <HackEgo> ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
21:01:49 <FireFly> I forget what it's called..
21:01:54 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
21:02:59 <shachaf> how can you pronounce my limerick without knowing what that letter is called
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21:17:29 <FireFly> That was why I looked it up.
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21:43:00 <shachaf> FireFly: Now you must write a Unicode poem.
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23:00:23 <noob_prodigy_> I've looked on Google and it's hard to find material on Brainfuck and I can't figure it out myself: How does one go about /copying/ (as opposed to moving) one cell's contents into another cell?
23:01:48 <b_jonas> noob_prodigy_: you move the cell to two other cells, then move one of them back to the original cell
23:02:48 <shachaf> I have the same question about x86 and registers. There's only a move instruction, no copy instruction.
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23:03:52 <b_jonas> shachaf: for x86, you zero the other register, then add the value from the first one. move instructions are rarely useful, and they have fewer encodings than arithmetic instructions.
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23:06:10 <shachaf> The x86 add instruction is LEA, right?
23:08:06 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's more than one add instructions. these days you have XADD and stuff like that too.
23:11:21 <olsner> FireFly: I'm surprised you didn't know about ꙮ already
23:12:28 <FireFly> I did, I had just forgotten its name
23:12:57 <shachaf> olsner uses it in his prose
23:13:40 <olsner> yeah, but my poetry's alphanumeric
23:14:03 <shachaf> To be fair, so is multiocular o.
23:14:22 <olsner> how odd, I haven't realized before
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