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00:19:04 <Sgeo_> `unidecode πΊπΈ
00:19:13 <HackEgo> U+1F1FA REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER U \ UTF-8: f0 9f 87 ba UTF-16BE: d83cddfa Decimal: 🇺 \ πΊ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+1F1F8 REGIONAL INDICATOR SYMBOL LETTER S \ UTF-8: f0 9f 87 b8 UTF-16BE: d83cddf8 Decimal: 🇸 \ πΈ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
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00:32:02 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> b_jonas: bf interpreters/compilers <-- pretty sure that's rdebath's job hth
00:32:46 * oerjan notes how never using capitals cleverly avoids having to remember how rdebath capitalizes his username
00:33:00 <oerjan> there it happens again
00:33:34 <oerjan> whenever the first thing i write in the channel after starting irssi ends with "hth", elliott's script gives an error message
00:33:50 <oerjan> and only if it's the first thing
00:34:25 <oerjan> actually it gives the same error message twice hth
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00:39:50 <shachaf> oerjan: You never use capitals?
00:42:51 <oerjan> . o O ( OKAYSHUNALLY )
00:44:08 <APic> Better Capitals than Capitalists.
00:44:28 <shachaf> Capital for the Capitalists
00:44:40 <shachaf> That's the motto of capitalism, I think.
00:46:56 <oerjan> shockingly, communion for the communists is not as popular
00:51:13 <APic> Shell okay, Ingenieur.
00:53:02 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, robots, cigars, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
00:53:18 <HackEgo> lambek's lemma? Β―\(Β°β_o)/Β―
00:56:26 <oerjan> `learn A cigar is either a penis or just a cigar, dependent on Freud's current mood.
00:56:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'cigar': A cigar is either a penis or just a cigar, dependent on Freud's current mood.
00:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It can also depend on whether or not the person who has the cigar is Bill Clinton
00:58:15 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/cigars, //' wisdom/tanebvention
00:58:38 <oerjan> i've just concluded it cannot be a tanebvention
00:58:49 <shachaf> well, it depends on freud's current mood
00:59:01 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: see last sentence of `? tanebvention hth
00:59:37 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
01:01:52 <oerjan> I'M UNCLEAR ON YOUR REASONING
01:02:06 <oerjan> also what's happening to my connection
01:03:39 <APic> ,o0(The Vision is unclear)
01:04:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> `addquote <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW <-- surely that must have been _somewhere_ in HackEgo?
01:04:43 <oerjan> possibly in character form, though...
01:04:59 <oerjan> `` grep -i snowman wisdom/*
01:05:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/β:Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go. \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/Β―\(Β°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/Β―\(Β°β_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
01:05:47 <oerjan> `` grep -i snowman wisdom/* 2>/dev/null
01:05:51 <HackEgo> wisdom/β:Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go. \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
01:05:58 <shachaf> `` file bin/UnicodeData.txt
01:06:00 <HackEgo> bin/UnicodeData.txt: ASCII text
01:06:08 <oerjan> `unicode SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
01:06:26 <HackEgo> β/cat: : No such file or directory
01:06:29 <shachaf> `` grep -i snowman bin/UnicodeData.txt
01:06:30 <HackEgo> 2603;SNOWMAN;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;; \ 26C4;SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;; \ 26C7;BLACK SNOWMAN;So;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;;
01:06:52 <FireFly> `culprits bin/UnicodeData.txt
01:06:55 <HackEgo> tswett tswett Jafet Jafet Jafet
01:07:01 <oerjan> hm doesn't look good, unless something is broken by unicode
01:07:52 <oerjan> oh well, i suppose it wasn't there, then.
01:08:03 <HackEgo> 1260) <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
01:08:52 <oerjan> oh wait `wisdom doesn't look inside files
01:08:58 <HackEgo> zombiecheney/ZombieCheney lives under a bridge.
01:08:58 <HackEgo> word/word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.
01:09:03 <HackEgo> htdh/HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao and Don Ho.
01:09:03 <HackEgo> browser/A browser is a Gopher client for convenient access to Gopher services and documents.
01:09:03 <HackEgo> d-module/D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
01:09:06 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/zombiecheney
01:09:07 <oerjan> `` grep -i β wisdom/* 2>/dev/null
01:09:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46154&oldid=45040 * Hppavilion1 * (+115) Added GUWhy
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01:09:26 <HackEgo> oren_ ZombieCheney ZombieCheney hppavilion1
01:09:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/haiku:π¨γβ \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
01:09:48 <shachaf> I'm just going to leave it in quotes.
01:11:38 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ autowelcome_status \ awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ dict-words \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello2.c \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
01:11:50 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ u8tbl.c \ ul.emm
01:12:22 <oerjan> `` grep -i unicodedata bin/*
01:12:25 <HackEgo> bin/icode:import unicodedata \ bin/icode:s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ bin/multicode:import os, glob, sys, unicodedata, locale, gzip, re, traceback, encodings \ bin/multicode: properties['name'] = unicodedata.name(ch, '') \ bin/m
01:12:54 <oerjan> `` grep -i 'unicodedata\.txt' bin/*
01:12:57 <HackEgo> bin/multicode: HomeUnicodeData = os.path.join(HomeDir, "UnicodeData.txt") \ bin/multicode: UnicodeDataFileNames = [HomeUnicodeData, '/usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt', '/usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData.txt', '/hackenv/bin/UnicodeData.txt'] + \ \ bin/multicode: glob.glob('/usr/share/perl/*/unicore/UnicodeData.txt') + \ \ bin/multicode:
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01:13:42 <shachaf> But multicode looks in HomeDir?
01:13:48 <shachaf> `` grep HomeDir bin/multicode
01:13:49 <oerjan> `` grep -l -i 'unicodedata\.txt' bin/*
01:13:49 <HackEgo> β HomeDir = os.path.expanduser('~/.unicode') \ HomeUnicodeData = os.path.join(HomeDir, "UnicodeData.txt") \ HomeUnihanData = os.path.join(HomeDir, "Unihan*")
01:14:26 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access .unicode: No such file or directory
01:14:35 <oerjan> how can that even work
01:14:39 <shachaf> `` python -c "import os; print os.path.expanduser('~/.unicode')"
01:16:12 <oerjan> huh i did not know that
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01:16:45 <oerjan> i guess it avoids accidentally adding junk
01:16:53 <APic> /tmp is open for Everyone B-)
01:17:15 <APic> Mostly even darn fast.
01:17:38 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/multicode
01:18:00 <oerjan> HackEgo seems a bit slow
01:18:12 <HackEgo> β#!/usr/bin/env python \ import os, sys \ import unicodedata \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ if u"DUNNO" in s: \ os.execvp("multicode", ["multicode"] + sys.argv[1:]) \ else: \ print s
01:18:42 <oerjan> right, unidecode falls back to multicode
01:19:08 <HackEgo> U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW \ UTF-8: e2 9b 84 UTF-16BE: 26c4 Decimal: ⛄ \ β \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
01:19:22 <oerjan> and the command _does_ work, somehow.
01:20:57 <shachaf> `` grep hackenv bin/multicode # hth
01:20:59 <HackEgo> β UnicodeDataFileNames = [HomeUnicodeData, '/usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt', '/usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData.txt', '/hackenv/bin/UnicodeData.txt'] + \
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01:26:52 <oerjan> `` run sed -i 's!bin/UnicodeD!share/UnicodeD!' bin/multicode; mv {bin,share}/UnicodeD*
01:27:01 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's!bin/UnicodeD!share/UnicodeD!' bin/multicode; mv {bin,share}/UnicodeD*
01:27:03 <HackEgo> mv: cannot stat `bin/UnicodeD*': No such file or directory
01:27:27 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/Unic*: No such file or directory
01:27:35 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access share/Unic*: No such file or directory
01:28:42 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/Unic*: No such file or directory
01:29:07 <oerjan> wait, is that an illegal use of globs
01:29:28 <oerjan> `` grep hackenv bin/multicode #
01:29:28 <HackEgo> β UnicodeDataFileNames = [HomeUnicodeData, '/usr/share/unicode/UnicodeData.txt', '/usr/share/unidata/UnicodeData.txt', '/hackenv/share/UnicodeData.txt'] + \
01:29:58 <shachaf> you might want to rename share/UnicodeD* hth
01:31:19 <oerjan> hmph IE cannot look at the diff for my first command without crashing
01:31:56 <oerjan> `` mv share/UnicodeD{*,ata.txt}
01:32:47 <oerjan> `multicode `` grep hackenv bin/multicode #
01:32:55 <HackEgo> U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T \ UTF-8: 74 UTF-16BE: 0074 Decimal: t \ t (T) \ Uppercase: U+0054 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
01:35:22 <oerjan> ok so the confusion was: `` run ... ; ... actually _does_ run the part after the ; so the file _was_ moved, which explains the error message on the second attempt. but the target filename was wrong because i misthought how the globs were expanded.
01:37:18 <oerjan> also in the panic i forgot `` a couple times.
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01:49:55 <hppavilion[1]> Remember that time I started an @tell message to someone with "so"?
01:51:54 <oerjan> i guess it worked out, then
01:52:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46155&oldid=44827 * LegionMammal978 * (+1) golfing
01:53:15 <lambdabot> ##categorytheory ##logic ##manatee ##megaharem ##proggit ##scalaz ##villagegreen #agda #archlinux-haskell #aurapm #bfpg #cplusplus.com #csa_uva #darcs #diagrams #dreamlinux-es #esoteric #fedora-haskell #fp@nith #friendly-coders #functionaljava #gentoo-haskell #gentoo-uy #ghc #hackage #happs #haskell #haskell-arcade #haskell-beginners #haskell-
01:53:15 <lambdabot> blah #haskell-books #haskell-br #haskell-by #haskell-cn #haskell-fr #haskell-freebsd #haskell-game #haskell-gsoc #haskell-id #haskell-in-depth #haskell-infrastructure #haskell-lens #haskell-llvm #haskell-overflow #haskell-pl #haskell-soc #haskell.au #haskell.cz #haskell.de #haskell.dut #haskell.es #haskell.fi #haskell.hr #haskell.it #haskell.jp #
01:53:15 <lambdabot> haskell.no #haskell.ru #haskell.se #haskell.tw #haskell.vn #haskell_ru #hledger #hscraft-srv #jhc #jtiger #learnanycomputerlanguage #learnmath #learnprogramming #ledger #lpmc #lw-prog #lysa #macosx #macosxdev #mainehackerclub #nicta-course #numerical-haskell #plaimi #rosettacode #scala #scalaz #scannedinavian #snapframework #tanuki #unicycling #
01:56:07 <oerjan> unicycling is, of course, heavily haskell-based.
01:56:53 <izabera> dafuq is #archlinux-haskell
01:57:10 <oerjan> @ask Taneb did you ever learn to unicycle properly and did you bring lambdabot into that channel
01:57:33 <oerjan> izabera: channels about using haskell on those platforms, presumably?
01:57:57 <shachaf> oerjan: shapr is all about unicycling hth
01:59:21 * lambdabot hits with a hammer, so they breaks into a thousand pieces
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02:02:13 <oerjan> it's a transcendental number hth
02:03:42 <tswett> So, let me see. Places pi appears.
02:03:56 <tswett> The roots of the sine function are at multiples of pi.
02:04:17 <tswett> The sine function is, of course, defined by a pretty simple alternating series.
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02:05:00 <tswett> You can define it as any of several obvious integrals.
02:05:36 <tswett> There are some generalized continued fractions for it, which seem to tend to involve squares of odd numbers.
02:06:04 <oerjan> values of the riemann zeta function at even numbers
02:08:04 <shachaf> I used to think they were just this field with some fancy properties, but according to reliable sources there are many other characterizations of them.
02:08:10 <mad> heh, I just read the "unum" number format paper... some guy proposing variable sized floating point... the paper is interesting except that variable size wipes out all potential benefits
02:08:10 <shachaf> And if anything some of those other ones are more fundamental.
02:08:24 <tswett> The sum of the squares of the reciprocals of the odd numbers is pi^2/8. Why's that?
02:09:10 <oerjan> gamma functions of n/2 where n is odd involve pi
02:09:42 <tswett> The arctan function can give you pi, and it's another simple alternating series.
02:11:19 <oerjan> tswett: pretty sure that second last follows from a case of the zeta function
02:12:30 <oerjan> just take zeta(2) - 1/4*zeta(2), i think
02:12:49 <oerjan> (all minus the even ones)
02:13:18 <tswett> So I'm seeing four pretty basic functions which are all related to pi: sine, arctan, gamma, and zeta.
02:14:41 <tswett> arctan is an alternating series which gives you pi. zeta is a positive-term series which gives you pi (more or less). sine is an alternating series that *takes* pi and does something fancy.
02:14:42 <oerjan> arctan is really just sine tweaked and inverted
02:15:02 <tswett> And then gamma... is important.
02:16:23 <oerjan> also it appears in the normal distribution as part of the scale factor
02:17:49 <oerjan> which follows from integrating exp(-x^2)
02:19:44 <oerjan> (for which there's a pretty trick using polar coordinates)
02:20:27 <tswett> I guess I'd like to see a good proof of "the pi theorem"βthat whether you define pi using sine, arctan, gamma, or zeta, you get the same number.
02:21:14 <oerjan> well as i implied sine vs. arctan is pretty trivial
02:21:39 <oerjan> it's just because tan has the same period as sin, and can be easily written in terms of it.
02:22:02 <tswett> All right, let's discount... one or the other. I'm gonna say let's discount sine.
02:22:41 <oerjan> oh and exp is periodic with period i*pi, which is also equivalent
02:23:01 <oerjan> that's probably in a sense _more_ fundamental than either of sin and arctan
02:23:46 <tswett> So now it's just a matter of proving that the arctan pi equals the gamma pi, and that the gamma pi equals the zeta pi, and that the zeta pi equals the arctan pi, and that these three proofs, when put together, yield a trivial proof that the arctan pi equals the arctan pi.
02:25:18 <oerjan> i suspect it might be a better idea to follow the connection used in the standard proofs for gamma and zeta, whatever those are.
02:25:23 <tswett> Prove that 6 zeta(2) = gamma(1/2)^4. Go!
02:25:53 <oerjan> and i somewhat doubt zeta and gamma are directly connected
02:26:18 <tswett> Good. You can omit that leg of the proof and then you don't need the filler cell.
02:26:23 <oerjan> fortunately, i have no idea how to prove either hth
02:26:25 <tswett> The 2-cell that fills the triangle.
02:27:41 * oerjan swats tswett for using d for "don't" -----###
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02:47:18 <boily> poke poke poke poke poke βͺ
02:50:41 <boily> . o O ( my memory is safe. he can't peek me. mwah ah ah )
03:02:11 <boily> he hasn't rebooted. maybe tomorrow.
03:02:30 -!- boily has quit (Quit: UNDERVOLTED CHICKEN).
03:03:19 <oerjan> @tell boily CURSE YOU, ESCAPING CHICKEN MAN
03:08:06 <oerjan> i take it you join in the curse
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03:29:27 <quintopia> in general, it is rude to join and part within 15 minutes. if you can't talk, don't show up to talk
03:29:59 <quintopia> oerjan: do you know the difference between pleonasm, neoplasm, and planemos?
03:30:26 <oerjan> i think i've heard the first word
03:30:39 <lambdabot> *** "pleonasm" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:30:39 <lambdabot> n 1: using more words than necessary; "a tiny little child"
03:30:47 <quintopia> ah, so at some time in the past before now you've heard pleonasm before
03:31:07 <lambdabot> *** "neoplasm" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
03:31:07 <lambdabot> n 1: an abnormal new mass of tissue that serves no purpose [syn:
03:32:00 <quintopia> it's a neologism...i'd never heard it before tonight
03:32:08 <oerjan> so technically you could have all 3 simultaneously
03:32:21 <oerjan> it would be rather yucky, though
03:32:22 <quintopia> i was astounded that three such obscue words could be anagrams
03:33:00 <oerjan> it's more likely than 3 common words, no
03:33:33 <quintopia> i'd expect any word that has an anagram to have at least one common anagram
03:33:36 <oerjan> well conditional on length
03:33:41 <quintopia> maybe my expectations do not reflect reality
03:34:02 <quintopia> ah yes, i suppose with longer words, the probability goes up
03:34:05 <oerjan> but there are more obscure words than common ones, so more opportunities to get a hit hth
03:34:24 <oerjan> i'd have thought it goes down.
03:34:44 <oerjan> hm or maybe there's a maximum
03:34:51 <quintopia> in my scrabble searching, every word i've found with anagrams has had at least one of them fairly common, but then, i mostly only search 6-8 letter words
03:35:21 <quintopia> oerjan: i meant the conditional probability: "if an anagram exists, it's also obscure"
03:38:17 <shachaf> whoa, some words have all sorts of anagrams
03:38:41 <shachaf> slater alerts alters artels estral laster rastle ratels salter slater staler stelar talers tarsel
03:39:18 <shachaf> tangiers tasering tigreans angriest astringe ganister gantries granites gratines ingrates rangiest reasting stearing
04:29:08 <Sgeo_> Is there anything interesting about Urbit? Besides the creator having not so great politics, I mean
04:29:24 <coppro> ugh thinking about monads is hard
04:31:55 <izabera> Sgeo_: what politics are you talking about?
04:32:43 <coppro> shachaf: the one I am trying to write
04:33:11 <coppro> I might use Control.Monad.Operation but am trying to figure out if I need it
04:33:11 <shachaf> well it's just a special case of some continuationy codensity thing hth
04:33:32 <Sgeo_> izabera, the creator of Urbit is the person who kickstarted Neoreactionism
04:35:29 <Sgeo_> As far as I know, it's something along the lines of democracy being bad and monarchy being better
04:35:38 <coppro> shachaf: it's probably just a protomofuncorioid
04:36:01 <izabera> http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/22/geeks-for-monarchy/
04:38:05 <mad> let's see saudi arabia show us how well that works
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04:51:42 <Sgeo_> "You think thatβs a joke, but in 1987 the dictator of Burma made all existing bank notes illegitimate so he could print new ones that were multiples of nine. Because, you see, he liked that number. As Wikipedia helpfully points out, βThe many Burmese whose saved money in the old large denominations lost their life savings.β For every perfectly rational economic agent out there, thereβs another guy whoβs really into nines."
04:55:50 <oerjan> wow wikipedia confirms it
04:56:42 <pikhq> But... Wow, proponents of monarchy. As an actual practice.
04:57:51 <pikhq> I suppose it might make some amount of sense if you assume perfect monarchs?
04:57:57 <pikhq> ... But that's hopelessly naive.
04:58:35 <Sgeo_> AFAICT, it assumes powerful (enough to ignore popular opinion) monarchs mostly interested in money
04:58:56 <Sgeo_> With the assumption that a monarch that feels safe has no reason to suppress speech etc
04:59:01 <pikhq> Alas, money is not utility.
04:59:20 <pikhq> Money is occasionally useful as a proxy for utility in models.
05:00:23 <mad> yeah that's a perfect plan for a ruler totally disconnected from the needs of the country
05:00:41 <Sgeo_> "Fnargl has no reason to ban free speech: let people plot against him. Heβs omnipotent and invulnerable; itβs not going to work. Banning free speech would just force him to spend money on jackbooted thugs which he could otherwise be spending on precious, precious gold. He has no reason to torture dissidents. What are they going to do if left unmolested? Overthrow him?"
05:00:49 <pikhq> It also naively assumes that monarchs interested in money are any good at it.
05:01:01 <pikhq> All evidence suggests that people aren't that good at it.
05:01:14 <pikhq> Democracy appears to work primarily by failing to not work.
05:01:37 <Sgeo_> "Imagine the US presidency as a dynasty, the Line of Washington. The Line of Washington has currently undergone forty-three dynastic successions without a single violent dispute. As far as I know, this is unprecedented among dynasties β unless it be the dynasty of Japanese Emperors, who managed the feat only after their power was made strictly ceremonial. The closest weβve ever come to any kind of squabble over who should be Presid
05:01:37 <Sgeo_> ent was Bush vs. Gore, which was decided within a month in a court case, which both sides accepted amicably."
05:01:42 <pikhq> Which is *frustrating* to watch, but I'll take it over everything else we've tried.
05:02:04 <mad> once your society is big and complex you need some decoupling and flexibility... democracy provides that
05:02:47 <pikhq> True, but there's lots of systems for it. Lots of things have had needs for it.
05:02:58 <pikhq> (if anything more than we do now: higher communication latency)
05:03:39 <mad> you have to spread the power at least somewhat to get things done
05:04:10 <mad> your engineer needs some independence to do the right thing
05:04:22 <mad> otherwise you have north korea
05:05:00 <mad> democracy is probably one of the reasons why the west is ahead of china
05:07:31 <pikhq> At the very least, democracy would not have resulted in the Great Leap Forward which appears to have done little but destroy a lot of economic value in China.
05:07:36 <mad> this guy is making the same mistake as libertarians... assume abstract perfect actors, rather than deal with the real human and make incremental improvement over incremental improvement like democracy
05:09:15 <pikhq> As I understand it this whole thing is an obscure outgrowth of the libertarian thought space, so that makes sense.
05:10:06 <mad> this is basically internet atrocity tourism :D
05:10:35 <pikhq> If only I had popcorn.
05:14:19 <Sgeo_> "Could a country be ruled as a joint-stock corporation?
05:14:19 <Sgeo_> This is the plan of Mencius Moldbug"
05:15:26 <mad> it's like looking at stormfront
05:16:32 <quintopia> how did this become moldbug channel. christ.
05:16:41 <Sgeo_> I was curious about Urbit
05:18:02 <pikhq> quintopia: At least it's not moldbug-supporters channel.
05:18:11 <pikhq> It's "oh my god WTF moldbug" channel.
05:18:31 <pikhq> Seriously, those ideas are bad and moldbug should feel bad.
05:19:52 <quintopia> tbf, i think moldbug's tyrant is a superintelligent AI or something like that, so your objections about perfect actors would seem to be handled.
05:20:02 <quintopia> not supporting, just not refuting along those lines
05:21:39 <Sgeo_> lol "Our second layer of protection is that the king will preserve human rights and maintain equity among persons. I wonder if the person writing this has ever read Mencius Moldbug. He has some pretty interesting arguments against human rights and the equity of persons, and Iβd be interested in hearing a debate between the two of them."
05:21:56 <pikhq> quintopia: I would have much fewer arguments if we had a superintelligent AI, which we can assume to be an approximately perfect actor.
05:22:25 <mad> human rights and equity come from power
05:22:29 <pikhq> *Though also irrelevant*, because a superintelligent AI should be modeled as effectively a tyrant regardless: it will perform those actions which maximize its utility function.
05:22:49 <mad> remove that power and rights turn into rights on paper only
05:22:56 <mad> just look at soviet russia
05:23:06 <pikhq> Making the whole thing fall into a bunch of wankery about "wouldn't superintelligent AI be neat you guys?"
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05:40:04 <quintopia> pikhq: it remains interesting when there are those who disagree that it would be neat
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05:55:46 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/oculus/comments/40qkxq/desert_bus_20_coming_to_oculus_rift_and/
06:05:34 <Sgeo_> So, Urbit seems like it changes from what most programmers no for no good reason
06:05:58 <Sgeo_> Which should make it a toy. But it also sounds like it has some eye on being practical
06:07:00 <Sgeo_> Hmm https://github.com/tibru/tibru
06:08:14 <mad> "Someone just emailed and pointed out that he couldn't check out Urbit on Windows, because it has a file con.c"
06:08:49 <Sgeo_> That sounds like Windows's fault
06:09:35 <oerjan> it's also a well known fault
06:09:47 <mad> yeah it's a classic windows wart
06:11:13 <mad> like... anything that touches .bat files
06:11:41 <pikhq> It's quite a terrible Windows wart.
06:11:56 <Sgeo_> https://vimeo.com/75312418 1:41 their chat system has political banners to keep everyone in the bubble they prefer
06:12:25 <mad> in terms of actual hair pulling I think I'd go for the win32 utf16 equivalents to stdlib functions
06:13:26 <mad> bubbles are bad
06:13:40 <mad> bubbles grow into cults
06:13:45 <pikhq> mad: Doesn't help -- this wart holds for all of Win32.
06:14:02 <pikhq> If you wanna get around it you have to use the undocumented NT APIs.
06:15:46 <mad> like, that whole debacle turns into stuff like, well...
06:16:15 <mad> at work we have a type that's typedefed as std::wstring on win32 (utf16) and std::string on osx (utf8)
06:16:58 <mad> matching with façade pseudio-stdlib functions that use those for filenames etc
06:17:12 <pikhq> I don't have the foggiest clue what my work does for code that has to run on Windows.
06:17:58 <Sgeo_> I should probably look at Urbit when I have more time
06:18:05 <mad> at my previous job before that I mostly did game and game-tooling code
06:18:23 <mad> most tools had a "absolutely no utf chars in filenames unless you like to cry" rule
06:18:58 <mad> because often some parts of the toolchain were in python
06:19:14 <pikhq> Admittedly, at my current job I write shockingly little *code*...
06:19:36 <mad> which just completely bails if you ever put as much as an Γ© inside a string
06:20:10 <Sgeo_> "The choice of 0 for true and 1 for false is _wrong:_"
06:20:31 <Sgeo_> "It's been sorta mentioned elsewhere on the thread, but there is another (IMO simpler) mathematical intuition behind 0:1 :: false:true that doesn't involve any lambda fundamentalism. It's the algebraic analogy disjunction:conjunction :: addition:multiplication :: union:intersection :: ... which also turns up pretty often in computing.
06:21:13 <Sgeo_> Although even [name omitted] agrees that it was a bad decision in retrospect, due to need for C compatibility
06:22:10 <mad> 0 for true sounds like he's doing it on purpose
06:23:24 <Sgeo_> He did do it on purpose, to be different
06:31:36 * mad scratches his head
06:31:52 <mad> what's special with that thing anyways
06:31:59 <mad> other than being purposefully weird
06:32:12 <oerjan> hey it's bash compatible
06:37:29 <mad> the other pie in the sky system some guy linked to today is : http://sites.ieee.org/scv-cs/files/2013/03/Right-SizingPrecision1.pdf
06:37:35 <mad> variable sized floating point
06:38:04 <mad> intended to be implemented in hardware
06:46:42 <mad> hm, this guy says that the point of urbit is to serve as some sort of networked architecture by using functional programming to isolate parts of the program so they can run distributed
06:46:45 <mad> ...I think
06:47:54 <mad> My answer to that is that a distributed programming language is probably a good idea if you can solve enough of the technical challenges to make it useful
06:49:38 <mad> And that if you want to isolate parts of the problem... hm... I think that eventually someone will take something like C++ (or java or C# or something) and turn it into a no-side-effects (ie no-aliasing ie no-pointers-or-references ie everything-is-copy-on-write) language
06:50:29 <mad> and when that happens that language will be useful since it allows for auto-vectorization of code (if stars align)
06:55:21 <mad> what would absolutely-no-aliasing-no-side-effects-no-pointers-no-references c++ look like anyways
06:57:30 <Sgeo_> "Hoon is a strict combinator language that avoids mathematical theory and notation. It aims at a mechanical, imperative feel."
06:58:12 <Sgeo_> Is there necessarily a difference between a functional language that feels imperative and an imperative language? AS I've seen argued, C is pure functional, it's only a description of a program to execute, not an actual execution
06:58:18 <Sgeo_> (I might be wrong in my restatement
07:04:00 <mad> the difference is side effects, no?
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07:05:52 <mad> C can be defined as a series of reads and writes to memory
07:06:22 <mad> that's not functional no matter how you put it I think
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07:07:20 <mad> also a functional language manipulates objects that contain potentially inifinite information no?
07:07:38 <mad> whereas C only deals with fixed size objects
07:13:14 <hppavilion[1]> If a set-theoretical "universe" U has finitely many elements
07:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> Then a set in that universe can be represented as a bitstring of length #U
07:14:16 <myname> well, yeah. that's usually how you show P(U) has 2^#U elements
07:14:30 <hppavilion[1]> Where each bit represents the presence or absence of a given element (and that bit consistently means that element, regardless of which set it is)
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07:14:42 <hppavilion[1]> And all the set-theoretic operations can be represented as the standard bitwise operations
07:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> s^C = ~bs(s), sUt = bs(s)|bs(t), snt = bs(s)&bs(t), s^t = bs(s)^bs(t)
07:15:54 <hppavilion[1]> AND that allows a whole host of new and strange set operations
07:16:22 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. Nunion, Nintersection, and Nymmetric Nifference
07:17:25 <hppavilion[1]> AND, if the set is well-ordered, you get the truly strange concept of "set addition", where the bitstrings must be organized in element order, and s+t is just adding the bitstrings
07:18:25 <hppavilion[1]> And, of course, set subtraction (NTBCW set difference), set multiplication, set division, etc.
07:19:18 <myname> well, of corse you can do it, but what do you want to do with it?
07:22:07 <mad> the other thing about this urbit thing is that it assumes that the traditional programming languages are irremediably flawed
07:23:26 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, most of the time you still have a goal while being eso
07:24:41 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I don't know. Maybe it's good for hashing?
07:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> Transmit a sequence of characters by converting them to an array of arrays, then add a constant and JSON dump it?
07:26:17 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and replace each bit with a random word from a big dictionary
07:26:38 <hppavilion[1]> (a random /fixed/ word that can be chosen using the key)
07:28:43 <zgrep> mad: The best way I've seen it described is as a political idea that has been expressed through technology.
07:29:11 <zgrep> (idea, ideology? something more or less like that.)
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07:30:39 <mroman> Executing install/build scripts is actually incredibly dangerous
07:31:12 <mroman> if that thing contains just something as simple as rm -rf ~ you're fucked
07:31:20 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 59m 17s ago: <mroman> b_jonas: bf interpreters/compilers <-- pretty sure that's rdebath's job hth
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07:45:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: as i'm _sure_ i recently saw somewhere, perhaps here, you can, in fact, represent any recursively finite set uniformly in that way. the number n has bit i set iff the set represented by n has the set represented by i as element.
07:46:24 <oerjan> this gives a bijection between recursively finite sets and natural numbers.
07:48:21 <oerjan> (s/recursive/hereditarily/ to use standard math nomenclature)
07:48:58 <mroman> recursively finite sets = powersets?
07:49:20 <shachaf> oerjan: i was talking about the integers being a free semilattice generated by powers of 2 at one point
07:49:32 <oerjan> finite sets whose elements are of the same kind.
07:49:56 <shachaf> but that doesn't sound like what you're talking about
07:50:00 <oerjan> mroman: i don't see what powersets have to do with it, except for also being included
07:50:38 <oerjan> shachaf: well i thought it was someone here. perhaps zzo38.
07:51:01 <oerjan> also it's too simple not to be well known. perhaps i read it somewhere else.
07:51:22 <shachaf> i'm honored to belong to the same equivalence class as zzo38 in your mind
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08:00:44 <mad> on urbit: ""Or maybe someone will code a MMORPG that does amazingly detailed rendering of algorithmically created dungeons by using spare cycles on the machines of game players (actually delegating the gaming firms core servers out onto customer hardware).""
08:01:11 <mad> answer: ha. no.
08:04:43 <mroman> what's up with all the "*** react to ***" videos
08:05:14 <mroman> Seems like old people making fun you young people :D
08:05:35 <mroman> where old roughly means like uhm 10 years older than the ones reacting
08:12:05 <mroman> that reminds me that I still have my old gameboy
08:13:35 <mroman> wait... when did the N64 come out?
08:14:12 <mroman> oh ok.. that explains why 19 years old don't know it
08:15:55 * oerjan has a feeling Tatham's Filling puzzle has become more subtle
08:16:49 <oerjan> it seems like it now creates puzzles where you must deduce larger regions with none of the initial numbers in. i just got one of size 5.
08:17:30 <oerjan> previously it almost never went above 2
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09:28:44 <SopaXT> In Conway's GameOfLife, HWSS resembles a duck at stage 2
09:29:22 <SopaXT> It should be renamed to Heavyweight Duck Ship
09:34:00 <SopaXT> b_jonas, http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Middleweight_spaceship
09:35:39 <SopaXT> http://conwaylife.com/wiki/Heavyweight_spaceship
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10:31:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46156&oldid=46152 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Hello, world! */ since when did a hello world program end with a carriage return and no newline?
10:32:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello, world!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46157&oldid=46153 * Ais523 * (-202) Undo revision 46153: I disagree that capital W is the most common (see the article's title for another opinionβ¦), and in any case, we probably shouldn't be trying to standardise the spelling
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11:06:42 <olsner> CR-no-LF is what Mac used to do, isn't it?
11:07:13 <ais523> but many programming languages swap \n and \r on output
11:07:27 <ais523> in much the same way that Windows libcs often translate \n to and from \r\n
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11:13:38 <APic> Would be very dowdy if all Systems used the same Encodings for Newlines. βΊ
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11:18:05 <Taneb> Imagine living in a world where people would design a single way of doing things and then use it
11:18:56 <Taneb> @tell oerjan No, but I still own a unicycle, and no (for clashing with greentext format) but we have our own lambdabotish bot
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11:32:52 <lambdabot> oerjan said 8h 29m 32s ago: CURSE YOU, ESCAPING CHICKEN MAN
11:33:16 <boily> @tell oerjan I'm not *that* escaping.
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11:45:20 <olsner> boily: don't you escape every day?
11:50:59 <boily> both. I escape at least twice a day.
11:55:09 <HackEgo> rdf/RDF is something zzo38 knows about.
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11:58:13 <boily> @tell nooga you have escaped for too long.
11:58:21 <HackEgo> amigamml/Only fools such as zzo38 and so on try to use AmigaMML on a PC. Real Men try to use AmigaMML on a Amiga computer. \ https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions
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11:58:35 <boily> really, the wisdom is zzoic today.
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12:43:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46158&oldid=46155 * LegionMammal978 * (-20) more golfing
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12:57:26 <mroman> what's the laziest way to store stuff in python
12:57:51 <mroman> like data = {'a': 12, 'b': {'b': '"b'}}; print data;
12:58:54 <mroman> >>> eval(str(data)) == data
12:58:57 <mroman> seems to work at least
13:13:05 <Deewiant> pickle is the canonical slightly less lazy way
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13:53:00 <fizzie> That didn't make too much sense when interpreting lazy in the lazy evaluation sense.
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14:15:20 <mroman> I meant lazy as in "lazy af programmer"
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15:47:29 <b_jonas> M:tG OGW set FAQ is released: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/oath-gatewatch-release-notes-2016-01-13
15:53:41 <quintopia> mroman: json.dump and json.load. yw
16:03:55 <Taneb> b_jonas, I *may* be going to a prerelease for that
16:04:09 <Taneb> If I can find a way that doesn't violate my "never pay for magic" rule
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16:45:05 <b_jonas> Taneb: why do you have such a rule?
16:45:22 <Taneb> b_jonas, so I don't spend all my money on magic
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16:50:04 <b_jonas> Taneb: do you practice some other hobby of the kind that makes you spend lots of money to always buy the latest and greatest of something?
16:50:33 <Taneb> b_jonas, no, and I don't really want to
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16:51:40 <Taneb> The last two video games I played were from 2007 and 2008, hardly the latest and greatest
16:51:45 <Taneb> I got them both on sale, too
16:52:26 <b_jonas> Taneb: and you don't build a new expensive computer or two for home every year?
16:52:52 <Taneb> I built a computer in 2011 or so, and got another second hand last year
16:52:57 <Taneb> It serves my purpose
16:52:58 <b_jonas> As I hear, parenting is the easiest expensive hobby to get into.
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16:53:29 <Taneb> Well, I think it'd be easier if a) I had some sort of relationship partner person, and b) I weren't asexual
16:54:11 <b_jonas> I thought the second one was irrelevant, but ok.
16:55:02 <Taneb> Well, it means I'm less likely to have sex and fall into parenting accidentally
16:55:15 <Taneb> Other methods, I'm told, are harder to get into
16:56:19 <Taneb> I don't think I'll become a parent any time soon
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17:25:07 <mroman> b_jonas: most expensive probably
17:25:12 <mroman> but easiest to get into?
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17:30:57 <mauris> probably drugzz are easier and the sky is the limit as far as expenses go
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18:28:18 <HackEgo> shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj/shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system.
18:29:32 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj
18:29:53 <HackEgo> fiora/Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose. She's a sous-chef who shushes sushi.
18:30:03 <HackEgo> fsm/An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
18:41:22 <HackEgo> mapole/A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, Β±0.5 inHg.
18:41:46 <HackEgo> intercal/INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
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20:40:28 <Taneb> Because the lecturer isn't much good, I'm trying to teach my self Character Theory
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21:06:16 <HackEgo> β[U+26C7 BLACK SNOWMAN] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW] [U+2603 SNOWMAN] [U+0020 SPACE]
21:06:25 <HackEgo> β[U+26C7 BLACK SNOWMAN] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW] [U+2603 SNOWMAN]
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22:07:58 <myname> why isn't snowman without snow the default?
22:08:23 <HackEgo> 1260) <mauris> MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN / HIRAGANA LETTER YA / SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW
22:11:11 <izabera> myname: unicode was developed in alaska
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22:13:24 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott ais523 ais523 boily
22:15:37 <Melvar> `quote bitwise cyclic tag
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22:26:49 <HackEgo> 54) * oerjan swats FireFly since he's easier to hit -----### <FireFly> Meh * FireFly dies \ 833) <olsner> FireFly: oh, did you see ion's police reindeer? that was ... at least as on-topic as this discussion \ 1135) <Taneb> I may write a compliant interpreter just for the hell of it <FireFly> Taneb: stop complianing
22:27:39 <FireFly> I don't remember the last one
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22:29:03 <fizzie> fungot: How have you been online for so long without dropping off? I don't remember when I last had to restart you.
22:29:04 <fungot> fizzie: funny like a clown. ( do) level yet? :d or is there a function in terms of the embedded version, but it still wastes all sorts of facts about my program, cut them some slack
22:43:42 <fungot> int-e: why would i? :d did i leave that out? ( don't worry, i'd think that would work? it seems to
22:48:06 <Taneb> It was about Underload
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23:59:08 <lambdabot> Taneb said 12h 40m 12s ago: No, but I still own a unicycle, and no (for clashing with greentext format) but we have our own lambdabotish bot
23:59:08 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 25m 51s ago: I'm not *that* escaping.