00:01:11 <oerjan> oh some starfish do "Brittle stars have a blind gut with no intestine or anus."
00:04:44 <int-e> `` zgrep CONFIG_MODULES /proc/config.gz
00:04:45 <HackEgo> CONFIG_MODULES_USE_ELF_RELA=y \ # CONFIG_MODULES is not set
00:06:35 <lambdabot> CYVR 282357Z 21020KT 12SM -RA FEW040 BKN063 BKN100 BKN150 09/05 A2986 RMK SC1SC4AC1AC1 VIRGA N SLP114
00:08:11 <zzo38> Do most JavaScript programs require a webpage or most don't? (My own program "JSZM" does not require a webpage and only requires ES6.)
00:10:26 <int-e> I suspect the sheer mass of websites means that most javascript code is written for websites... typically operating on the DOM, which requires some sort of browser.
00:10:42 <int-e> (well, the HTML DOM)
00:10:54 <int-e> there's also an SVG one, at least
00:11:11 <int-e> probably extends to XML in general
00:11:33 <int-e> (and then it covers XUL as well)
00:12:14 <shachaf> @@ @@ (@where weather) KSEA KOAK
00:12:16 <lambdabot> KSEA 282353Z 20014G20KT 10SM FEW012 BKN050 BKN060 07/05 A3004 RMK AO2 PK WND 22027/2338 RAE08B24E37 SLP179 P0001 60029 T00720050 10100 20067 53018 $ \ KOAK 282353Z 27006KT 10SM FEW020 BKN170 OVC200 17/11 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP224 T01720106 10189 20139 55006
00:12:19 <shachaf> ?? ?? (?where weather) KSEA KOAK
00:12:21 <lambdabot> KSEA 282353Z 20014G20KT 10SM FEW012 BKN050 BKN060 07/05 A3004 RMK AO2 PK WND 22027/2338 RAE08B24E37 SLP179 P0001 60029 T00720050 10100 20067 53018 $ \ KOAK 282353Z 27006KT 10SM FEW020 BKN170 OVC200 17/11 A3019 RMK AO2 SLP224 T01720106 10189 20139 55006
00:12:25 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/\?/@/g' wisdom/weather
00:20:17 <HackEgo> Extreme ironing is an esoteric sport in a similar sense as esoteric programming languages.
00:21:54 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Mon Feb 29 01:21:53 2016
00:21:55 <int-e> `? extreme ironing
00:21:56 <HackEgo> Extreme ironing is an esoteric sport in a similar sense as esoteric programming languages.
00:22:10 <shachaf> that date makes no sense hth
00:22:27 <oerjan> shachaf: you just need a leap of logic hth
00:24:38 <oerjan> <b_jonas> see, this is why I'm not using learn <-- OKAY
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00:25:40 <oerjan> `` ln -s '`learn' wisdom/learn
00:26:13 * boily bissextically mapoles oerjan
00:26:27 <int-e> that entry is suspiciously accurate
00:26:49 <int-e> `learn learn is the most convenient and error-prone way of adding new wisdom entries.
00:26:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'learn': learn is the most convenient and error-prone way of adding new wisdom entries.
00:26:53 <HackEgo> learn is the most convenient and error-prone way of adding new wisdom entries.
00:26:58 <boily> oerjan: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann%C3%A9e_bissextile
00:27:06 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:27:16 <HackEgo> wisdom/learn \ wisdom/`learn
00:27:20 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/*learn
00:27:23 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Feb 29 00:25 wisdom/learn -> `learn \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 149 Feb 29 00:26 wisdom/`learn
00:27:30 <HackEgo> `learn creates a wisdom entry and tries to guess which word is the key. Syntax (case insensitive): `learn [a|an|the] <keyword>[s][punctuation] [...]
00:29:43 <oerjan> boily: bissextile is a weird word
00:31:30 <oerjan> apparently it's because the roman calendar was weird.
00:33:57 <boily> romans built an empire on top of unusual units and acrobarithmetic.
00:39:36 <oerjan> except they were unusual when they started
00:42:49 <boily> hellombda-11235. it's acrobatical arithmetic hth
00:43:37 <int-e> . o O ( There was a doctor called Seuss / who studied Grinch's Whoville abuse, / one fish and two fish, / red fish and blue fish. / To me that is highly abstruse. )
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00:46:39 <boily> hppavellon[1]. what is your stance about unusual units?
00:47:41 <boily> units of measurement, odd conversion factors between them, units that measure unusual stuff...
00:48:02 <oerjan> `le/rn extreme irony/Extreme irony it was happens when you do extreme ironing leading to a Darwin award.
00:48:31 <hppavilion[1]> I love them with almost exactly 5pi romeos (2.5tau juliettes)
00:48:38 <oerjan> `le/rn extreme irony/Extreme irony it what happens when you get a Darwin award for extreme ironing.
00:48:49 <oerjan> `le/rn extreme irony/Extreme irony is what happens when you get a Darwin award for extreme ironing.
00:49:00 <oerjan> the above, however, is extreme muphry's law.
00:49:33 <zzo38> int-e: Yes HTML/SVG DOM is what I had meant. A JavaScript program is not required to touch any DOM though, and if only core JavaScript features are used then it can be used with anything.
00:50:01 <oerjan> boily: my stance about unusual units is about 63 millicleese hth
00:50:02 <zzo38> (It would then still require a front-end to be written, although that would be a separate program.)
00:50:15 <zzo38> oerjan: What is that units?
00:50:15 <boily> oerjan: millicleese?
00:50:44 <oerjan> zzo38: unit of absurd humor hth
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00:51:51 <int-e> here's some simple pure ecmascript I wrote some years ago for fun http://sprunge.us/SaZe?js
00:52:59 <oerjan> are there any actual strong english verbs with y as main voerl
00:53:01 <int-e> (I love Tarjan's disjoint set forests.)
00:53:54 <int-e> you could verbify "lyre" ;-)
00:54:12 <boily> woveel, voerl, mhound, tromple, spronghack...
00:55:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'd say that's not the main vowel
00:55:56 <HackEgo> ivlncene mball durhetendumen preng se pitibindrectic dgolineng obmlacomess cong fridarosed resmatienexong mee ats ramed fae acomerischigney nitgeheaesalthemereca canobipit ickeuconethet othilbarmundenobte si ta enatrad ceacgrapraffe hors juggerismushimeraocke idercenstrablebedres imulanimaartunignings ters mureahaltemassanon rned kito flasimen les
00:56:43 <oerjan> those words are a bit verbose
00:57:00 <boily> mureahaltemassanon sounds Finnishish.
00:58:21 <oerjan> int-e: um, not strong sorry
00:59:27 <oerjan> although maybe some others on -y are...
01:00:25 <oerjan> hmph neither cry, try or fry
01:00:31 <int-e> not sure what kind of strength you're after
01:00:55 <hppavilion[1]> ZFC is set theory with nothing /but/ the axiom of choice
01:00:56 <oerjan> int-e: an irregular vowel change in the past tense would be good
01:00:56 <int-e> the hit/hit/hit kind?
01:01:47 <oerjan> (i don't count -y -> -i- since that's a completely regular rule)
01:02:42 <hppavilion[1]> What alternatives are there to Horn Clauses for logic programming?
01:02:48 <oerjan> hm to work with synch above, it probably shouldn't be the last sound in the word either
01:04:24 <zzo38> http://whymtgcardsmith.tumblr.com/post/139692846278/because-actually-playing-magic-the-gathering-is Change "the player with the highest life total wins" to "the active player loses".
01:04:59 <int-e> "tryst" of 7th guest fame appears to be completely regular as well
01:05:17 <oerjan> actually the problem with finding one, i think, is that strong verbs are always germanic while y in germanic words only appears at the end like that
01:05:20 <int-e> (but is interesting to me in that the "y" isn't the usual ai: sound)
01:05:52 <int-e> (I'm too lazy for proper IPA)
01:06:16 <oerjan> wiktionary claims it can be ai
01:07:24 <int-e> Hmm, I'll try sleep. Back in Europe...
01:13:57 <hppavilion[1]> Someone doesn't know about event-driven programming tautologies
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01:29:45 * boily is binging ASMR and SCP at the same time. maybe I shouldn't do that...
01:42:22 <hppavilion[1]> boily: A Sailor Moon Romance and the Society of Catholic Priests?
01:43:16 <hppavilion[1]> Age Standardized Mortality Rate and Security Certified Program?
01:43:53 <hppavilion[1]> Average Spread Margin Rating and Simple Chess Program
01:45:12 <boily> I wouldn't be surprised if there were Sailor Moon ASMR out there...
01:45:24 <boily> Catholic Priests are too terrifying to qualify as mere SCPs.
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02:03:28 <shachaf> boily: what does a person gotta do get mapoled around here
02:04:01 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, how is "mapole" pronounced?
02:04:12 <boily> bad puns, essentially.
02:04:13 <shachaf> i assumed it was like "ma pole"
02:04:20 <shachaf> but maybe it's more like "mey pole"
02:04:35 <shachaf> i only have good puns tdnh
02:04:40 <oerjan> it's just a pole, ma'am
02:05:29 <shachaf> is a mapole a citizen of mapoland
02:05:57 <oerjan> boily: i find that o: unlikely
02:06:17 <boily> it is likely, with my outrageous accent.
02:07:07 <shachaf> i don't know how to read those highfaluting IPAs
02:07:28 <shachaf> i may have faluted a little too high myself
02:08:09 * oerjan wonders if shachaf ever ingests anything nice
02:08:30 <shachaf> boily: oh, you weren't even around for my pun earlier
02:09:00 <oerjan> or just lives on broccoli and bean sprouts
02:09:11 <boily> ieeeuw... broccoli...
02:09:38 <oerjan> and the occasional grapefruit.
02:09:39 <shachaf> oerjan: when i was ~3 years old i'm told i would throw tantrums about not being given broccoli
02:09:55 <shachaf> i would sit outside the apartment and scream "broccoli! broccoli!" even through we were out
02:10:29 <shachaf> boily: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2016-02-27#225334oerjan
02:10:57 <boily> oh. and what was the pun you got overmapoled for?
02:11:33 <shachaf> i don't think i've ever been overmapoled
02:12:28 <boily> <shachaf> oerjan: Where do I file a complain if I have reason to believe I've been overly mapoled? ← overmapoling much?
02:12:48 <shachaf> The pun is a few lines later.
02:14:54 * boily thwacks shachaf with his mapole
02:15:25 <boily> you can still file a complain.
02:15:59 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints.mp3; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
02:16:12 <HackEgo> tswett oerjan tswett oerjan hppavilion[2] oerjan
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02:33:38 <shachaf> oerjan: you are the modal complainer
02:35:07 <shachaf> "ie am the very modal of a modern filer of complaints"
02:37:11 <oerjan> `complain This database lacks knowledge animal and vegetable and mineral.
02:37:15 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
02:38:17 <shachaf> now you're even more modal
02:38:23 <oerjan> shachaf: mod 2, to be precise.
02:38:52 <shachaf> i used to think Modest Mussorgsky's first name was the english adjective
02:39:06 <shachaf> it seems like an odd title to give oneself
02:39:43 <oerjan> especially as he was an exhibitionist
02:46:27 <zzo38> I got selections to work in my program now, in both directions
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02:47:15 <zzo38> I have the music from Modest Mussorgsky on my computer right now
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02:50:55 <zzo38> "The Great Gate of Kiev"
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02:53:19 <zzo38> Firefox requests the "TARGETS" target five times, and then "UTF8_STRING", and then "COMPOUND_TEXT", and then "STRING". Xterm requests "UTF8_STRING" (even if Unicode mode is disabled), and then "TEXT", and then "COMPOUND_TEXT", and then "STRING".
02:58:29 <zzo38> You can now write: window.createSelection(X.atom.PRIMARY,t=>(t==X.atom.STRING && new Property(X.atom.STRING,8,"Hello, World!"))).on("clear",()=>console.log("Cleared"));
03:05:08 <zzo38> s/Property/X.Property/
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03:45:19 <zzo38> Is it possible to add support for Plan9 forwarding into SSH server in Linux? If so, how?
03:46:34 <zzo38> (The other thing to add would be support for adding a one time pad encryption on the outside layer)
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06:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> What's the opposite of intuitionistic logic? Something destructive, no doubt
06:01:54 <shachaf> There is dual-intuitionistic logic.
06:02:12 <shachaf> Where not not P is a stronger statement than P.
06:08:22 <lifthrasiir> http://unicode.org/consortium/adopt-a-character.html
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06:15:23 <dingbat> lifthrasiir: I don't understand how that's not satire. It's satire, isn't it? But it's on unicode.org. I'm so confused.
06:16:55 <lifthrasiir> dingbat: it is a sort of donation mechanism, all serious
06:18:22 <dingbat> If I told someone I was paying $5000 a year to sponsor a Unicode character and, in return, receive an engraved plaque, I'd be locked in the looney bin.
06:19:42 <dingbat> As an aside: Hello! I'm new to this channel
06:21:22 <lambda-11235> dingbat: Than just tell them you're paying to support multilingistic harmony across all computer systems.
06:22:51 <dingbat> lambda-11235: I think that's still grounds for the looney bin :)
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06:31:29 <dingbat> lambda-11235: have you adopted a character yet?
06:33:19 <dingbat> I think if I was going to adopt, I'd choose U+200F RIGHT-TO-LEFT MARK. It's a good character
06:34:39 <dingbat> Incidentally, it's a great character to insert into unsanitized HTML forms
06:36:12 <HackEgo> dingbat: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:37:43 <dingbat> Cheers. I'm a big fan of esolangs, so I guess this is a good place to lurk
06:37:58 <lifthrasiir> dingbat: visible, allocated graphical characters only
06:39:22 <lifthrasiir> dingbat: someone managed to adopt a combining character, though
06:40:02 <lambda-11235> I'd choose λ, just cause it's the only character whose code I've memorized by heart.
06:40:09 <zzo38> I think that a lot of mess has been made with Unicode
06:41:23 <lambda-11235> lifthrasiir: U-03BB, so no. 11235 is the first 5 numbers in the fibonacci sequence.
06:41:57 <b_jonas> dingbat: people do that in zoos, but in that case at least they get a plaque not at home, but at the cage of the animal they adopt, so anyone visiting the zoo can see they're the sponsor.
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06:42:49 <dingbat> b_jonas: right. And that makes some sense, because people go to animal zoos. But I somehow doubt many people visit the "Unicode zoo"
06:43:32 <dingbat> U+0666 is a nice satanic character. ARABIC-INDIC DIGIT SIX
06:45:55 <dingbat> Ooooh nooo Satan's string is coming for me!
06:46:39 <dingbat> So glad iPhone finally added that to the font set. Conversations with friends are much more succinct
06:47:54 <lambda-11235> dingbat: U+1F446 displays for you? on weechat it doesn't show up, although in the terminal emulator it does.
06:48:33 <dingbat> lambda-11235: Yup. I'm on IRCCloud, the OS X client, specifically. So I guess it's using OS X system fonts
06:49:36 <hppavilion[1]> In what typographists are calling "Totally gay", U+1F46C
06:49:46 <dingbat> hppavilion[1]: hahaha it's the most convenient client I've tried. It stays connected no matter what, and I don't have to keep a bouncer running :)
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06:53:44 <zzo38> "UTCE" http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/utce is a better character set for making terminal emulators with, than Unicode, which is especially bad for that purpose
06:55:08 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: it is a well-doomed replication of ISO 2022 I think
06:55:19 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes it does have all of the box drawing
06:56:16 <zzo38> (The PC character set has all of the box drawing, and all characters in the PC character set are included in UTCE)
06:56:37 <adu> hppavilion[1]: !
06:57:06 <zzo38> Actually there are also a few additional box drawing stuff in the DEC and Infocom and Commodore sets, and those are also all included.
07:00:32 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's an sbl?
07:02:02 <adu> so, like forth or factor?
07:02:25 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: It is far simpler than ISO 2022 actually, and is capable of being used on the same system as ISO 2022.
07:02:26 <adu> or PostScript?
07:04:05 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: isn't that bytes marked with * are used to switch the current bank?
07:04:18 <zzo38> (You can use the DEC character set selections together with it, and use a single font with it. Therefore the terminal emulator can be fulfilled without use of Unicode or ISO-2022-JP or whatever else like that)
07:04:42 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: No, the bytes marked with * are not used in UTCE, and may be used for data transfer functions and/or terminal control functions.
07:05:15 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Really, it just prompts you with random symbols and you describe them
07:05:24 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's for mass-production of low-quality esolangs
07:05:46 <zzo38> (The bytes marked with 0 also, if not the second byte of a two-byte code, may be used for terminal controls, such as to emulate VT100 character set selections.)
07:05:48 <dingbat> hppavilion[1]: Does Befunge count as an SBL?
07:06:23 <lifthrasiir> then it actually is [\t\r\n...] | [\x20-\x7e] (?# bank 0 characters ) | [\x80-\xff] [\x20-\x7e\x80-\xff] (?# double-width fixed bank characters ) | [\x80-\xff] [\x00-\x1f] (?# bank override ) ?
07:07:18 <lifthrasiir> then this is much worse than ISO 2022 in terms of total number of characters supported.
07:07:51 <zzo38> I change the document a bit to clarify it
07:08:41 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: for example, how would you support GB 2312 in the same framework?
07:08:49 <hppavilion[1]> dingbat: Anything with a stack as the primary data structure is an SBL
07:09:30 <dingbat> hppavilion[1]: Gotcha. (I'm particularly fond of Befunge as far as esoterics go, and working on a similar language)
07:11:11 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Currently there is no Chinese supporting, although you can write in Japanese. (There is also no Korean) It could possibly be added into the double wide characters though, although currently they are defined as only JIS X 0213
07:11:47 <hppavilion[1]> dingbat: I once tried making a production Fungeoid
07:11:56 <lifthrasiir> so is it going to be a multi-byte (larger than 2 bytes) encoding?
07:12:00 <hppavilion[1]> dingbat: (Also, I wrote most of the fungeoid article on the wiki :))
07:12:09 <zzo38> No, it is only 2 bytes
07:12:23 <lifthrasiir> then you need some kind of switch characters, and it is identical to ISO 2022
07:12:35 <zzo38> I would expect that you can do without simplified Chinese
07:13:02 <lifthrasiir> I believe a flat namespace used by Unicode is much better than tons of separated namespaces
07:13:37 <dingbat> hppavilion[1]: oh neat. I really like how fantastically easy it is to make a simple fungeoid interpreter
07:13:53 <zzo38> It is better yes, although the rest of Unicode is worst.
07:16:46 <zzo38> However I believe my design can be reasonable even without simplified Chinese included. (Arabic and Hebrew and zero-width spaces and combining characters will never be included; all of these things are against this design.)
07:16:48 <b_jonas> I wonder, did ais523 deliberately name Underload to make people create an abbreviation ambiguous with the already famous language unlambda, in a similar way as brainfuck and befunge causes problems?
07:17:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: so, kind of like a built-your-own-with-five-words kind of esolang
07:18:49 <b_jonas> Because if it's so, then we need another language as successful as those whose name matches I.*C.*
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07:19:58 <zzo38> UTCE is not designed for typography; it is designed for screen displaying on a grid-based display with simple encoding/decoding, so there is no such things as hyphenations and ligatures and so on that can be supported (actually an implementation probably could, but it would be a bad idea).
07:20:00 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Except it can have upwards of 18000 instructions
07:21:04 <adu> hppavilion[1]: well, I was thinking of something like "C without semicolons" or "Lisp with indentation"
07:22:13 <lifthrasiir> adu: C without semicolons? http://ioccc.org/1988/litmaath.c (+ s/;/{}/)
07:23:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but with more characters including DEC characters.
07:24:12 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I do
07:24:32 <adu> I've written thousands of things in C
07:26:52 <zzo38> (Also, avoids the confusion of graphics with control codes)
07:29:11 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it looks like it's an implementation of echo
07:30:15 <adu> only with spaces replaced with \n
07:31:10 <adu> hppavilion[1]: or '\n'.join(sys.argv[1:])
07:35:13 <zzo38> In JavaScript it would be process.argv.slice(1).join("\n") although note that the name of the program is argv[1] (and argv[0] is the name of the interpreter) so it isn't quite the same way necessarily
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08:08:36 <zzo38> If you do not know C programming, then you must learn.
08:10:51 <myname> a language that doesn't change the way you think is not worth knowing
08:22:36 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What if said language is your first language?
08:23:15 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/pathhack if anyone wants to try this, it lets you handle relative paths in other directories than .
08:23:42 <izabera> just put the list in the paths file and run make
08:23:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm tempted to axiomize everything in one grand messy axiomatic system
08:23:55 <izabera> (it's mostly a test, maybe i'll rewrite it with fuse)
08:24:05 <hppavilion[1]> So you can reason about groups relative to topological systems
08:25:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: No, it axiomizes things completely unrelated to sets (though you can, of course, construct them using sets)
08:27:00 <zzo38> Category theory has many definitions made including thin category, discrete category, functors, monads, comonads, initial/final object, etc. Also a category can add/multiply/exponent another category, and in this way the finite discrete categories are the natural numbers of these add/multiply/exponent.
08:27:51 <zzo38> You could add one, I suppose
08:28:13 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You must go peano on its ass or it isn't real arithmetic
08:28:57 <zzo38> But you could add one to any category it does not have to be a discrete category.
08:29:32 <zzo38> (A discrete category is a category with no morphisms other than identity morphisms.)
08:30:28 <zzo38> (By "add one" I mean you add the discrete category with one object.)
08:32:38 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, there cannot always be.
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08:32:43 <hppavilion[1]> (Use of the successor function was a bad choice for Peano, because successor is better for computing (you don't need to brute force it or use algebra))
08:32:45 <b_jonas> “(A discrete category is a category with no morphisms other than identity morphisms.)” => is that like a set?
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08:33:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: I suppose it is like a set.
08:35:42 <zzo38> Any category with more than one object has more monads than final objects.
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08:39:42 <b_jonas> Now I'm reminded to the infamous lambdacats. And the one that says “I FIXED UR TYPE ERROR / BUT NOW IT SAYS SUMTHING ABOUT / MONOMORPHISM RESTRIKSHUN”
08:40:01 <mroman> C changes the way you think to.
08:40:29 <mroman> It changes it to "this language shouldn't have been used as a first choice".
08:41:55 <myname> there are a lot of languages like that
08:43:30 <zzo38> I happen to think C is not so bad. PHP isn't very good though
08:43:36 <myname> nah, brainfuck is alright
08:44:04 <myname> that is one mess of a language
08:44:42 <zzo38> That is true, C++ is pretty messy
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08:53:28 <myname> it's interesting how "to find" is practically identical to "finden" in germany, including that weird "i find sth to be sth"
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09:27:35 <b_jonas> What's up with all these boot loaders that set up graphical mode on PC hardware with bios? Why don't they just use the default vga (or similar) text mode that the bios sets up for them?
09:45:10 <mroman> because it looks fancier obviously.
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11:17:59 <izabera> https://imgur.com/gallery/kenWB i want hair like ariel
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11:52:39 <HackEgo> Xe: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
12:07:34 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
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12:11:19 <HackEgo> tjt263__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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12:22:39 <fungot> boily: maybe i'll re-write her in scheme and how to remedy it provisionally. people never bother to read the label off of one and only making a new scheme implementation.
12:23:05 <boily> fungot: Chicken Scheme is good. it has chicken
12:23:05 <fungot> boily: ' cause its in a directory? either way it's much better to force you to shoot yourself in the scratch package
12:23:16 <fungot> boily: http://gs30ng.exca.net/ tempimage/ fnord) lets me know i am a newbie so i don't think it's deterministic.
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13:50:27 <\oren\_> izabera: it looks really weird to see San smiling nicely. She only does that once in the whole movie.
13:52:21 <\oren\_> also, she shouldn't be wearing lipstick, she should be wearing wolf BLOOD
13:53:38 <izabera> do we still have that bot that adds stickmen when one types \o/ ?
13:57:36 <\oren\_> they should do eboshi and the giant pig lord
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14:16:11 <int-e> what did lambdabot do there...
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14:56:36 <HackEgo> olist 1026: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:57:04 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
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15:27:39 <nortti> I got an esolang idea, infinitely parallel DFA. the DFA's output is (synchronously) transmitted to the next machine in chain, and its input is similarily hooked to one previous to it
15:28:04 <nortti> in the beginning, a starting symbol is fed into the machine in the head of the chain
15:32:49 <nortti> I believe it is turing complete, as you can have a system thusly, simulating cyclic tag system: you have symbols S (start symbol), 0, 1, ;, D0, D1. the machine's initial state responds to D0 (in which case it sets its internal state to 0 and moves to "main loop"), D1 (same as internal D0, except internal state 1), and S (at first send out the starting data using D0 and D1, then start sending out the progr
15:32:55 <nortti> am, repeatedly, encoded in 0, 1, ;)
15:35:10 <nortti> in the main loop, the DFA reacts to 0, 1, ;, D0, D1. if it gets 0 or 1 and its internal state is 1, it then send forwards either a D0 or D1, otherwise don't transmit anything. if it gets ;, it goes into "death loop", where it will merely repeat the symbol it receives. for D0 and D1, it will just repeat the symbol onwards
15:35:24 <b_jonas> nortti: so you basically want a cellular automaton with a particluar neighborhood rule?
15:35:38 <b_jonas> nortti: those are known to be enough to be turing-complete, with the right DFA ruleset.
15:36:11 <nortti> didn't realise it mapped into cellular automata, but now thinking makes sense
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16:55:31 <Melvar> Script injection because of a policy that lets through anything in JSFuck, apparently: http://blog.checkpoint.com/2016/02/02/ebay-platform-exposed-to-severe-vulnerability/
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17:33:16 <shachaf> FireFly: whoa whoa whoa, spoilers
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17:36:43 <shachaf> Well, at least he didn't die yet.
17:37:29 <int-e> is it a fate worse than death?
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17:40:06 <int-e> I've tried OotS but usually I doze off after panel 2.
17:41:28 <shachaf> Did you start from the beginning?
17:41:58 <FireFly> It gets a lot more story-driven after the first story arc I'd say
17:44:29 <int-e> I actually followed it for a while... to the 726, apparently.
17:44:40 <int-e> but that was years ago
17:48:21 <HackEgo> 944) <groily> I stand by the argument that fungot is the one making the most sense in this channel.
17:48:21 <HackEgo> 507) <ais523> this strikes me as probably better than a singularity, because you can't trust a random AI, but you can probably trust olsner
17:48:21 <HackEgo> 196) <oklopol> ah yes, indeed, alan turing was gay and stupid
17:48:21 <HackEgo> 336) <oklopol> anyway i have to get going, first lecture at 9 and i need to do a few iterations on my article, and do some unmentionable things which also take hours <oklopol> and masturbate as well
17:48:22 <HackEgo> 129) <fungot> Vonlebio: well, i'm only back in denmark because my work visa expired. please insert token to continue.
17:50:20 <int-e> `quote shakespeare
17:50:25 <b_jonas> `learn Vaarsuvius is female. The Word of God about that is right at http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10
17:50:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'vaarsuviu': Vaarsuvius is female. The Word of God about that is right at http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10
17:51:13 <b_jonas> `learn Vaarsuvius is female. The Word of God about that is right at http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10 , right above where he tells the comic updates three times a week.
17:51:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'vaarsuviu': Vaarsuvius is female. The Word of God about that is right at http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10 , right above where he tells the comic updates three times a week.
17:56:07 <int-e> hmm will they make prints of http://www.sssscomic.com/comic.php?page=479 ? that looks amazing...
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18:01:43 <hppavilion[1]> Did you know that all vacuously true statements about the elements set {} are vacuously true?
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18:02:31 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I would say that's false.
18:05:45 <int-e> Okay, it's correct but what you wrote is not itself vacuously true; it's just a normal tautology.
18:05:58 <int-e> and it's confusing :P
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18:16:41 <HackEgo> Vaarsuvius is female. The Word of God about that is right at http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10 , right above where he tells the comic updates three times a week.
18:16:54 <HackEgo> Vaarsuvius is female. The Word of God about that is right at http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10 , right above where he tells the comic updates three times a week.
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18:54:13 <hppavilion[1]> It's easiest to prove things if you assume all axioms
18:54:38 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: I can prove just as many things with only one axiom!
18:55:00 <coppro> for all statements S, S is true.
19:00:05 <zzo38> Such axiom is inconsistent though and does not result in a meaningful system.
19:00:47 <coppro> so is "all axioms" since that would necessarily include the negation of any axiom assumed
19:02:15 <quintopia> coppro: you don't need a universal quantifier if you use the axiom P and not P (for whichever P you feel like using)
19:04:44 <shachaf> A scow IRC behavior is when you try to get people to commit to answering your questions before even knowing what they are.
19:05:15 <zzo38> Yes I know, both are inconsistent, since if everything can be a theorem then it is inconsistent
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19:14:23 <zzo38> I have updated the UTCE document including more clarification, information about error conditions, and information about using it with ISO 2022.
19:14:41 <zzo38> There is also information about use with X window system.
19:15:15 <quintopia> shachaf: i personally dont see a problem with surveying channel activity before laying out a long complicated question however
19:25:14 <zzo38> Do you think this is good now?
19:28:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, where's the document?
19:29:03 <b_jonas> must be somewhere under the text files
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19:40:06 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/utce
19:46:14 <zzo38> (The other directories are mainly for archived files, so it is unlikely to add files into the other directories)
19:46:54 <b_jonas> so everything goes under misc*
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19:49:17 <zzo38> Well, not quite everything, occasionally files are added into other directories if they really fit there, or new directories are created for use of other archives, but my own new files tend to go under miscellaneous regardless of what they are about. The file music/xm-form.txt is one file that contains my own text as well as that from elsewhere, since that file contained some mistakes. I have marked what my changes are.
19:49:43 <b_jonas> sure, it's just most files right now
19:54:37 <zzo38> Now what is your opinion of this UTCE document?
19:55:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: I mostly agree with whoever said above that it's better to have a flat homogenous namespace of characters, and that namespace these days tend to be unicode. There might be characters missing, but they can be added.
19:56:02 <b_jonas> I do understand that a terminal encoding or font encoding needs different characters than a text encoding,
19:56:07 <b_jonas> and they certainly have to be distinguished,
19:56:15 <b_jonas> but at least unicode provides a good base for all of these.
19:56:45 <b_jonas> For fonts, you often need more than one glyphs for one character, or combinations of characters, so it gets all ugly and complicated, but still.
19:56:57 <b_jonas> Some of that can come up even with terminals.
19:57:53 <zzo38> Terminals should avoid use of such things. UTCE deliberately omits such things as Arabic and Hebrew
19:57:57 <b_jonas> Although admittedly _part_ of the multiplication of glyphs required per character would have better been avoided when unicode was made,
19:58:15 <b_jonas> and is just a historical consequence of unifying the CJK scripts or of unifying the Russian with the Serbian scripts,
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19:58:41 <b_jonas> but it's a bit too later for that, and even if you did all those historical things right, you'd sometimes need multiple glyphs per character in a font.
19:59:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: Oh sure, arabic, hebrew, or old hungarian runes need so much ligature stuff that you just can't display them on a terminal grid, I think.
19:59:42 <b_jonas> They just don't work in monospaced.
20:00:37 <b_jonas> But I don't know too much about arabic or hebrew, so don't trust what I say about those.\
20:00:50 <b_jonas> I display mostly latin script stuff in terminals.
20:01:06 <b_jonas> (And even latin script has some complications of course.)
20:01:26 <b_jonas> Language stuff is never easy.
20:01:30 <zzo38> I don't know much about Aratic and Hebrew, although they are right-to-left, which is also deliberately avoided by UTCE.
20:03:01 <zzo38> However, UTCE is not intended to be used for typography; it is for terminal encoding. Even for typography, all properties should be defined in the font metrics instead of in the character set anyways.
20:03:03 <b_jonas> The Commodore 64 characters are an interesting case. That rom supports two or three font encodings, and I think \oren\ found that there are six characters all together supported by the commodore that don't seem to have nice unicode equivalents.
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20:03:20 <b_jonas> But those should be added to unicode eventually if they are used.
20:03:41 <zzo38> It is OK that some characters are not available in Unicode.
20:03:51 <zzo38> UTCE is separate from Unicode.
20:04:06 <b_jonas> Sure, because there are tons of characters in general. And there's always more of them.
20:07:10 <zzo38> A terminal emulator can support multiple character encodings anyways, although sometimes different fonts may be needed in each case. I recommend that the additional character encodings to support are only the subset of ISO 2022 that is implemented in DEC terminals.
20:08:46 <zzo38> Also, it is not only some Commodore 64 characters which have no Unicode equivalent, this is also the case with some Apple MouseText, Texas Instruments, and Infocom character graphics.
20:09:01 <zzo38> (As well as a small number of DEC character graphics)
20:09:34 <b_jonas> I have no idea what Apple MouseText is
20:10:08 <b_jonas> Texas Instruments… um, is that the programmable calculators? I don't really know what kind of single-cell characters they have these days.
20:10:27 <b_jonas> Infocom... I don't know that either
20:10:36 <zzo38> Yes, I do mean the programmable calculators. Many of the characters it has are in Unicode, but a few aren't.
20:11:02 <b_jonas> As for the DEC graphics characters, I believe all of them are in unicode now. There's only about 70 or something of them total anyway, and most of them were already in unicode for other reasons.
20:11:23 <zzo38> I think the pieces of the large Sigma aren't?
20:13:30 <b_jonas> hmm, is there a reference for that set of characters somewhere?
20:16:02 <zzo38> http://www.vt100.net/charsets/technical.html
20:17:07 <zzo38> (There is also the VT100 graphics set, which is a separate set, already included in both Unicode and UTCE.)
20:17:21 <zzo38> The Technical set is mostly in Unicode and fully in UTCE.
20:17:42 <zzo38> As you can see, the pieces of the large Sigma have no Unicode equivalents.
20:18:39 <b_jonas> yes, those might not have a unicode equivalent. I don't know.
20:22:16 <zzo38> Notice there are some duplicates; UTCE is meant not to have duplicates, so the encodings aren't exactly the same as the originals. (A font for the X window system will likely contain duplicates anyways for compatibility purposes, as described in the document I wrote.)
20:22:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, it will have duplicates between those different character sets
20:23:32 <b_jonas> there's quite some overlap between the DEC technical set and the 437 for example
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20:26:25 <zzo38> Yes I know that, and when converting either of those same characters from either DEC or PC set into UTCE, they convert to the same UTCE code.
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20:59:43 <Taneb> Designing an ASCII art font is less than fun
20:59:55 <Taneb> \oren\_, was it you who was making a font?
21:05:36 <b_jonas> Taneb: \oren\ made one, lifthrasiir also made one, and I also have a bitmap font available only in BDF format currently
21:06:14 <Taneb> b_jonas, do you have an example rendering of your font
21:06:15 <lifthrasiir> I'm currently dormant (due to other works, in particular a brainfuck interpreter retrial)
21:07:31 <Taneb> lifthrasiir, I'm only using ASCII, do you have an example rendering?
21:07:43 <b_jonas> Taneb: not any good ones. I should make some, but I'm lazy
21:07:48 <lifthrasiir> Taneb: http://lifthrasiir.github.io/unison/sample
21:08:17 <b_jonas> Taneb: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-cp437.png and http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-screenshot-irc.png are all I have available, and they don't show much
21:08:49 <Taneb> Ah, neither are quite what I was after
21:09:19 <Taneb> (I'm going for a far lower resolution)
21:09:47 <b_jonas> Taneb: mine is 10x20, oren's and lifthrasiir's both use a 16x9 grid or something I think
21:10:31 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: oh, is yours 16x8 rather than 16x9? I didn't know
21:10:43 <Taneb> I'm making a brainfuck program to make ASCII art banners
21:10:52 <b_jonas> Taneb: what size would you want?
21:10:52 <lifthrasiir> so that some glyphs smoothly connect to each other
21:11:30 <Taneb> Currently going for 4 by 5
21:11:37 <b_jonas> indeed, lifthrasiir's is 8 wide
21:13:12 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: what's your progress with it by the way? I've seen you've added some more Latin script characters, but you haven't added the easy but common characters like " " (thin space) yet. I know you said you didn't want to add them yet, but maybe that's changed since.
21:13:38 <Taneb> b_jonas, I could use yours, I guess
21:13:44 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I was working on combining hangul and stopped there
21:14:05 <Taneb> It looks broadly like a higher-definition version of the style I'm after
21:14:10 <lifthrasiir> my immediate goal is to complete them and add a support for semi-automatic GPOS
21:14:20 <lifthrasiir> *then* I'll continue working on extended latin...
21:14:25 <Taneb> b_jonas, do you have it in something machine-readable-ish?
21:14:41 <Taneb> (I'm generating this program using Haskell)
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21:16:51 <b_jonas> Taneb: I can give you the bdf version, that one is easy to read, especially as this one uses fixed offsets and sizes encoded for all glyphs.
21:17:12 <b_jonas> there's a spec for bdf by Adobe or Apple or something somewhere, but you can probably figure it out without
21:17:25 <Taneb> b_jonas, thanks! :)
21:17:51 <b_jonas> (the pcf contains all the info but is compressed properly)
21:19:05 <b_jonas> Taneb: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-c.bdf
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21:20:37 <Taneb> b_jonas, thanks a lot
21:20:49 <Taneb> Now I just need to read this using Haskell and write it as brainfuck!
21:21:16 <b_jonas> obviously that version is very wasteful, you can compress it quite well
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21:24:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Fpetrola * New user account
21:25:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46472&oldid=46471 * Fpetrola * (+11)
21:26:29 <Taneb> I'm not hugely worried about compression
21:26:54 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: can I put in suggestions about the font?
21:27:19 * lifthrasiir should have used an issue tracker in that way, btw
21:27:20 <b_jonas> um, file issue where? just here on the channel?
21:28:02 <lifthrasiir> I do have my own internal wishlist but I haven't used an issue tracker for that project yet
21:28:04 <b_jonas> let me see, I think I have a login for this thing
21:28:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Humo]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46473 * Fpetrola * (+1518) Created page with "Humo is a programming language with a tiny interpreter implementation and the smallest set of operations for an imperative programming language. This is an experimental langua..."
21:28:49 <lifthrasiir> if you happen to hate github, feel free to say it here instead
21:29:03 <b_jonas> I'll try on github, but if I mess up with the github interface, sorry
21:30:23 <b_jonas> um, is there supposed to be some ticket metadatathing there, like type (eg. bug, feature request, task), priority (urgency), severity, etc?
21:30:34 <b_jonas> Or do I just write the text and that's all?
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21:47:01 <Taneb> I'm probably reading in the font now! :D
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22:07:38 <Taneb> http://i.imgur.com/CPAuNjy.jpg
22:08:06 <HackEgo> Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:08:07 <Taneb> Not sure why I took a photo rather than a screenshot
22:08:48 <int-e> it's the esoteric way
22:09:10 <shachaf> Better to take a screenshot, print it out, and take a photo of that.
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22:10:54 <shachaf> `addquote <b_jonas> shachaf: different notation. -o is logical or in find, but it's linear implication in linear logic
22:11:00 <HackEgo> 1269) <b_jonas> shachaf: different notation. -o is logical or in find, but it's linear implication in linear logic
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22:20:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: put it in a word document and email that, then print the email, fax it, but wait, you have to involve MS Paint in there somewhere too
22:21:45 <HackEgo> U+11235 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 91 88 b5 UTF-16BE: d804de35 Decimal: 𑈵 \ 𑈵 (𑈵) \ Uppercase: U+11235 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
22:21:51 <shachaf> Hmm, my terminal isn't messed up.
22:22:38 <HackEgo> U+11235 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f0 91 88 b5 UTF-16BE: d804de35 Decimal: 𑈵 \ 𑈵 (𑈵) \ Uppercase: U+11235 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
22:23:52 * oerjan hates how hard it is to choose text inside a link
22:24:16 <oerjan> anyway, it's supposedly KHOJKI SIGN VIRAMA
22:33:27 <Taneb> I've... I've generated a broken, 1.1MiB brainfuck program
22:33:55 <Taneb> For a start, the judging is not until Wednesday
22:34:02 <myname> Taneb: look for the error
22:35:27 <myname> where do you submit it to?
22:37:59 <Taneb> My uni's electronics society
22:38:25 <Taneb> I may say "Do you mind if I give you this on a USB because I don't really want to put it in izabera's pastebin website
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22:39:18 <oerjan> bah what kind of shitty pastebin can't handle a few megabytes
22:39:28 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see https://github.com/isomorphism/Delineate/blob/master/Control/Delineate.hs hth
22:40:24 <shachaf> i wish cmccann was still around so i could ask him about it
22:40:44 <Taneb> oerjan, it's my clipboard that I'm worried about
22:40:48 <shachaf> "-- Given "A ⅋ B" either A or B is true, but you get to "decide" which is true by providing a counterexample for the other, where the counterexample may be (and often is) used in the computation that produces the final result. It's probably not as confusing as it sounds. Possibly."
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23:01:45 <oerjan> shachaf: i am guessing there's nothing enforcing that those definitions actually use each parameter once...
23:02:39 <oerjan> so, in a sense it's classical logic (by rampant double negation) with programmer discipline.
23:04:41 <Taneb> Did you know it takes a long time for a JavaScript emulator to run a 10000 line brainfuck program
23:18:29 <myname> that's unexpected! i thought emulating bf would be in o(n)
23:32:32 <boily> hellørjan, Tanelle, mynamello.
23:34:04 <boily> Québécois income tax are fun!
23:35:22 <oerjan> tax is not a plural noun, boily
23:39:18 <boily> pluralses are complicated :P
23:39:21 <int-e> so you don't get a choice about taxes?
23:42:22 <boily> taxes aren't really known to be about choice.
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23:49:25 <shachaf> boily: whoa whoa whoa, canadian tax rates are p. high
23:50:10 <shachaf> or maybe us tax rates are low
23:50:17 <shachaf> or actually maybe they're more similar than i thought
23:52:57 <boily> we pay provincial and federal taxes, with different forms! about half my pay disappears into our Great Government.
23:53:17 <boily> but now it's time for poutine. and/or pizza.
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23:54:34 <shachaf> @ask boily pizza must be poutine its place
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23:56:01 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
23:56:04 <lambdabot> CYUL 292331Z 22013KT 7SM -SN DRSN FEW013 BKN030 OVC090 M01/M02 A2958 RMK SF2SC5AC1 SLP019 \ ENVA 292350Z 09006KT CAVOK M04/M08 Q1017 RMK WIND 670FT 14012KT \ ESSB 292350Z AUTO 19003KT 9999 NCD M03/M07 Q1027 \ KOAK 292353Z 29009KT 10SM FEW140 SCT200 22/08 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP197 T02170078 10222 20144 56020
23:56:27 <int-e> you know it hurts me to look at this output
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23:59:19 <shachaf> int-e: What if it just showed the temperature?