00:01:46 <oerjan> rdococ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_dioxide_removal#Direct_air_capture
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00:02:08 * oerjan is currently editing that a tiny bit
00:06:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46665&oldid=46374 * Albedo * (+49) /* Program flow control/conditional operations */ instruction 'Q' added
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00:06:58 <oerjan> hm maybe i should have just used an anchor to start with.
00:07:28 <rdococ> they need to make sure they're not to effective, or else people with them in enclosed spaces will end up dying of too much oxygen
00:08:07 <rdococ> ugh, I hate how HackEgo links to the diff page but not to the article itself
00:08:52 <rdococ> hey, what about a 2d programming language in polar coordinates?
00:09:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46666&oldid=46665 * Albedo * (+102) /* Global stack related I/O */ instruction V explanation extended
00:09:39 <rdococ> or a 0d programming language
00:10:28 <rdococ> what would negative information be like anyway
00:10:40 <rdococ> negative information would subtract information, right
00:10:43 <b_jonas> rdococ: you don't die from too much oxygen. it can pose some fire hazard to flammable objects, but it doesn't just kill you. space stations and some diving equipment use air with a much higher oxygen content than the atmosphere, and it doesn't hurt people. you die to higher carbon dioxide content, or lower oxygen content.
00:12:13 <rdococ> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity
00:12:28 <rdococ> from a quick read of the first paragraph or two
00:12:35 <rdococ> I don't think it's exactly what I mean
00:12:40 <rdococ> but the problem might still hold
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00:13:15 <rdococ> http://www.sciencefocus.com/qa/why-does-breathing-pure-oxygen-kill-you
00:13:33 <rdococ> apparently, breathing pure oxygen is deadly
00:13:54 <rdococ> yet wikipedia says people can breathe pure oxygen without dying
00:17:01 <rdococ> google says a programme is "a planned series of future events", as opposed to "program"
00:17:33 <rdococ> I guess a programme is just a linear program
00:17:46 <rdococ> but that takes the fun out of it
00:17:58 <rdococ> we must get people to programme programmes in a programmeing language
00:19:38 <rdococ> print hello world at 1:20 on 28/03/2016
00:20:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beeswax]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46667&oldid=46666 * Albedo * (+118) Introduction extended
00:23:52 <rdococ> This is an example of a programme -> "I will say "hello world" at 3:20 PM on 29/03/2016. Then the user will say "hello programme". If all goes according to plan, I will say "yay"."
00:23:54 <oerjan> <rdococ> who's right <-- iiuc 100% oxygen is harmless if the pressure is low enough <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity#Hypobaric_setting
00:24:05 <rdococ> depends how low the pressure has to be
00:24:27 <b_jonas> rdococ: ok, maybe it can hurt you a bit
00:25:20 <rdococ> "breathing oxygen at pressures of 0.5 bar or more for more than 16 hours can lead to irreversible lung damage and, eventually, death."
00:25:28 <oerjan> "This general property of gases is also true in chemical reactions of gases in biology. For example, the necessary amount of oxygen for human respiration, and the amount that is toxic, is set by the partial pressure of oxygen alone. This is true across a very wide range of different concentrations of oxygen present in various inhaled breathing gases or dissolved in blood."
00:25:38 <oerjan> from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_pressure
00:26:00 <oerjan> note that "partial" is important here
00:26:22 <rdococ> so it's the pressure of one part of a mixed gas?
00:27:05 <rdococ> In a mixture of gases, each gas has a partial pressure which is the hypothetical pressure of that gas if it alone occupied the volume of the mixture at the same temperature. The total pressure of an ideal gas mixture is the sum of the partial pressures of each individual gas in the mixture.
00:27:16 <rdococ> explained it better than anyone else could
00:27:28 <oerjan> i was just about to paste that.
00:28:10 <rdococ> a program would be like a game where you can win or lose, a programme would be like a game where things go as planned, or they don;t
00:29:09 <oerjan> <rdococ> I guess a programme is just a linear program <-- that's just british vs. american, at least originally.
00:29:23 <rdococ> what about a programming language where your program is just a platforming level
00:34:13 <rdococ> I'm using their british meaning
00:35:34 <oerjan> "UK: programme is used in all cases except for computer code, in which case program is generally used. Older sources may use programme for computer code."
00:35:44 <oerjan> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/program#English
00:36:28 * oerjan looks suspiciously at rdococ's cloak
00:36:44 <rdococ> duh, why did you think I took notice of the all europeans thing
00:36:48 <oerjan> so, just get with the programme
00:37:12 <oerjan> rdococ: hey you could be from new zealand. or madagascar.
00:37:52 <oerjan> "New Zealand: programme is favoured by New Zealand dictionaries, and is endorsed by government usage; program is rarely seen outside the computing meaning."
00:38:25 <oerjan> the australians are conflicted: "Australia: program is endorsed by the Australian government, but programme is most common."
00:38:41 <rdococ> well program is more usually used for program code, and programme rarely
00:45:20 <rdococ> either way, I mean the definition that is not program
00:47:30 <HackEgo> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
00:47:55 <HackEgo> nooooooodl is the correct spelling
00:51:20 <rdococ> so a programmeing language would allow you to make programmes
00:51:35 <rdococ> but if something doesn't go according to plan
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00:51:40 <rdococ> you must have a backup plan
00:53:20 <boily> lynn: hellynn. you don't have a wisdom entry. and that's terrible hth
00:53:57 <oerjan> boily: technically she has at least two hth
00:54:34 <oerjan> oerjanne would be female. also exceedingly cheesy.
00:54:49 * oerjan checks if anyone has that name
00:55:42 <lynn> boily: boilut~
00:56:10 <oerjan> i find it used as a hashtag for a wedding...
00:56:29 <oerjan> but not as an actual name.
00:57:26 <oerjan> < 4 persons by that name, it says
00:57:55 <oerjan> it would likely not be a legal name, at least for children.
00:58:12 <boily> so it is legal for adults? excellent!
00:58:52 <oerjan> although everyone would _understand_ it as someone's misguided attempt to regender "Ørjan".
01:01:42 <oerjan> first cognate hit i find is "Jørgine", 78 women. (vs. "Jørgen", 10999 men.)
01:02:25 <oerjan> those women are probably old, most of them.
01:03:03 * oerjan checks Ørjanine just for good measure
01:03:38 <boily> this ørjanine treads dangerously close to one infamous orange soda brand...
01:03:55 <oerjan> huh "William" was last year's top boy's name in norway
01:04:54 <oerjan> and in Oslo, "Mohammad" stays put at the top :P
01:06:28 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh, I thought that entry was removed but if course it's under mauri.
01:06:36 <rdococ> on the topic of names and gender, I'm surprised at how people always talk about how some things portray women as objects, but not the things that portray men as objects. also, in a programming environment, both are objects.
01:06:50 <shachaf> lynn: Should wisdom/mauri be removed?
01:07:06 <oerjan> "don't be an object, program in haskell!"
01:07:18 <lynn> shachaf: That'd be nice
01:08:14 <rdococ> what if everything was a function
01:08:34 <oerjan> <boily> so it is legal for adults? excellent! <-- i'm not sure exactly what the law is these days.
01:09:06 <rdococ> 1 is actually function (getPredecessor?) if getPredecessor? then return 0 end end
01:09:21 <MDude> Then you have combinatory logic?
01:09:32 <b_jonas> fungot, are you an object?
01:09:32 <fungot> b_jonas: i tried to say that: ( ( foo xxx)) yyy) ( ( y x)
01:09:35 <rdococ> but it looks different
01:09:46 <b_jonas> fungot: I don't understand that
01:09:46 <fungot> b_jonas: i am fnord making conversation. it is
01:09:56 <fungot> b_jonas: the original fnord code and fnord cyclexa asap, and i couldn't put down to simple ignorance of specific facts about canada.
01:10:57 <lynn> I feel like that's a classic <3
01:11:05 <boily> fungot: there are no facts about Canada.
01:11:06 <fungot> boily: see the announcement on c.l.s.
01:11:24 <boily> c.l.s.... that would be Comp Lang Scheme, right?
01:11:33 <HackEgo> An object is just something in a category.
01:11:35 <oerjan> rdococ: i don't see how that definition would work for 0 and getPredecessor? seems redundant anyway.
01:11:47 <oerjan> just use church numerals.
01:12:11 <rdococ> 1 = function () return 0 end
01:12:15 <rdococ> 2 = function () return 1 end
01:12:43 <rdococ> successor = function (x) return function () return x end end
01:12:56 <oerjan> boily: what about hypothetical facts?
01:13:13 <rdococ> add = function (x, y) return -- umm
01:13:31 <boily> oerjan: then they are certain facts, as they are hypotehtically correct, eh?
01:14:22 <oerjan> rdococ: i'm just saying, how would you call such a function in such a way that you could distinguish 0 from 1
01:14:37 <rdococ> function (x) return x end
01:14:49 <rdococ> false = function () return false end
01:14:54 <rdococ> true = function () return true end
01:15:11 <rdococ> function equals(x, y) return -- umm
01:15:14 <oerjan> rdococ: a Tautological Functional Language
01:15:26 <b_jonas> use binary to make computations more efficient!
01:15:37 <rdococ> it could be done with almost every type
01:15:47 <boily> b_jellonas. correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we doing that already?
01:15:56 <oerjan> boily: like "Ottawa would be the capital of Canada, if Canada existed."
01:16:13 <b_jonas> reference implementation: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs
01:16:40 <oerjan> boily: do you also think rdococ has trouble fitting in with the channel humor tdnh
01:17:13 <b_jonas> boily: basically yes. we're actually using a higher radix (2**16 or 2**32 or 2**64) and arithmetic on digits of that size is built in, but the goal is the same, achieving efficiency with it
01:17:14 <rdococ> oerjan: what? I understood the logical humor perfectly - he said a statement which didn't assume something it's safe to assume
01:17:31 <b_jonas> (even without specific support for digits, base 4 would probably be more efficient than base 2)
01:17:55 * boily mapoles rdococ a bit to realign his chäkräs
01:18:17 * boily realigns rdococ some more
01:18:22 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
01:18:33 <shachaf> function = function () return function end
01:18:48 <rdococ> anything = function () return anything end
01:18:55 <boily> rdococ: I like diæresises.
01:19:19 <rdococ> pls tell me what these words mean
01:19:42 <olsner> boily: I think it's diaereses
01:20:11 <HackEgo> 1225) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1226) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
01:20:14 <shachaf> I don't need entries for those.
01:20:24 <shachaf> Come on, this is getting a bit botspammy even for this channel.
01:20:36 <HackEgo> 1250) <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
01:21:09 <oerjan> `learn Maples are the sacred trees of Canada, from which a true Canadian can make anything.
01:21:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'maple': Maples are the sacred trees of Canada, from which a true Canadian can make anything.
01:21:49 <HackEgo> 1226) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｈｉｌａｒｉｏｕｓ
01:22:33 <shachaf> oerjan: are true canadians similar to true scotsmen
01:22:46 <rdococ> a true canadian can make anything from maples?
01:23:28 <\oren\> canadian computers use asbestos as the substrate
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01:24:07 <olsner> hmm, substrate is almost an anagram of asbestos
01:24:29 <rdococ> you can get asbestos in maples?
01:24:30 <boily> you aren't seeing things. simply a coincidence. happens all the time. la la la ♪
01:24:51 <oerjan> > map sort ["asbestos","substrate"]
01:25:48 <oerjan> boily: is there a problem?
01:26:55 <olsner> I almost typoed that as "substrate is almost an anagram of substrate"
01:27:25 <\oren\> rdococ: it's a joke because canada is a major producer of asbestos
01:27:36 <oerjan> almost is almost an anagram of asbestos
01:28:15 <rdococ> as the saying goes, the best os is asbestos
01:28:16 <boily> there are no nefarious plans behind anything you might conjecture tonight.
01:28:52 <rdococ> new, Array Language! 0 = [] 1 = [[]] okay this is getting old
01:29:57 <rdococ> 1 = function () return 0 end, vs 1 = [0]
01:34:13 <rdococ> add = function (x, y) return ifequal(y, function () end, x, add(function () return x end, y())) end -- what is ifequal(x, y, trueReturn, falseReturn)?
01:35:08 <rdococ> ifequal = function (x, x, trueReturn, falseReturn) return true end
01:35:19 <rdococ> nil would be function () end()
01:35:24 <rdococ> nil = function () end()
01:36:55 * rdococ 's chäkräs have been realigned
01:38:02 <rdococ> now attaining SUPER SPIRITUAL POWER
01:38:16 * rdococ can now transform into SUPER RDOCOC
01:38:37 <rdococ> well, there are as many chäkräs as there are chaos emeralds
01:39:59 <rdococ> The noun tautology originates from the Greek word tautologos, meaning “repeating what is said.”
01:40:33 <rdococ> function () return function () return function (x, y) return function (z) return z end end end end
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01:42:55 <rdococ> whatever happened to the editor?
01:43:07 <rdococ> none of the editing things bold, italic etc show up but I can still use them
01:59:39 <oerjan> rdococ: with my psychic powers i can see that the answer is... gremlins!
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02:07:30 <boily> 2016! finally got to January 2016!
02:08:12 * boily meant /quit. fried brain and all that sort of thing...
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02:13:30 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing a language that compiles to JS, HTML, and CSS. I'm currently at functions, and I've come up with what I feel is a clever way to efficiently do curried functions while targeting JavaScript, with the bonus of keyword arguments
02:15:09 <hppavilion[1]> You can do something like bar = foo(\2, \1, "walrus") to get a functions bar :: Float -> Int -> Bool
02:15:33 <hppavilion[1]> And you can partially apply foo with bar = foo(9, 2.7|
02:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> It's not as pretty as Haskell, but it gets the job done(R)
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02:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> Huh. I can't get HexChat to autoreplace (R) to the registered trademark symbol
02:27:22 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: use the compose key
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02:39:47 <zzo38> Here is a part of TVMIDI specification: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/TVMIDI
02:40:28 <zzo38> Please tell me any comment/question/suggestion/complaint.
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03:23:38 <hppavilion[1]> It's like a turing machine, but instead of a tape it's a spindle with rotors
03:24:05 <hppavilion[1]> So you can only transition the symbol to one of two other symbols (or one other symbol)
03:30:16 <izabera> that's not a turing machine
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03:39:57 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Though if you allow the symbol to have no transition, it's at least TC for binary
03:40:18 <hppavilion[1]> Because no transition is x -> x, while transition is x -> ~x
03:41:32 <hppavilion[1]> And since whether a transition is taken is based off of the current symbol, you can make sure it maps to the correct symbol
03:42:08 <izabera> "TC for binary" <- what does this mean?
03:43:44 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Because a 3-state binary TM is TC, so a 3-state rotary TM with a no-transition option and a binary alphabet is also TC
03:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Did I not imply that the spindle is infinite?
03:44:46 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's not just one rotor, it's an infinite spindle of rotors
03:45:05 <izabera> i see, we're back to the usual nonsense
03:45:23 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I was thinking about the Enigma, so I came up with this
03:46:11 <izabera> please stop highlighting me
03:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> (There's also the switchboard machine, which is most certainly not turing-complete)
03:53:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[The Abstract Computer]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46668&oldid=46637 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Capitalization
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05:40:54 <zzo38> I have seen that before
05:51:16 <coppro> you know it's a good day when your upgrade includes the Erlang manpages
05:51:22 <coppro> when you haven't touched erlang in years
05:53:38 <\oren\> erlang sounds like a language based on indecision
05:54:13 <coppro> I should make that language
05:54:20 <coppro> it can be called Errlang
05:54:26 <coppro> so that you think it's about error handling
05:54:38 <coppro> what should the syntax be like? errr
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05:57:34 <\oren\> well it's like what if an "if" statement actually executes both paths and then decides which one to kkep at the end?
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05:59:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: metar: not found
05:59:05 <coppro> \oren\: hah! I'm not near YYZ
05:59:14 <lambdabot> CYYZ 280555Z 06003KT 15SM TS SCT035CB OVC100 08/04 A2964 RMK CB3AC5 FRQT LTGIC W-NW PRESFR SLP044
05:59:34 <coppro> (CYKF is closer to my usual haunt anyway)
06:00:20 <\oren\> i'm in yyz and i was wondering if the rumble I just heard was thunder or some asshole's loud bike
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06:06:02 <lambdabot> ENVA 280550Z 15018KT CAVOK 07/M03 Q0995 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 16022KT
06:09:58 <coppro> why have we never met up
06:10:47 <lambdabot> KOAK 280553Z 27011KT 10SM SCT160 13/07 A3002 RMK AO2 SLP164 T01330067 10167 20128 58001
06:10:55 <lambdabot> KSEA 280553Z 16004KT 10SM FEW060 05/03 A3010 RMK AO2 SLP202 60007 T00500033 10100 20050 51011
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07:01:45 <zzo38> A chess problem: 1r5K/6PP/8/8/8/1k4q1/6P1/8 =
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07:11:31 <zzo38> Another one: 8/5KP1/7k/8/6P1/8/8/8 #3
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07:52:32 <zzo38> (It isn't very complicated)
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10:01:49 <zzo38> A book called "Encyclopedia of absolute and relative knowledge" contains some lies about chess. It claims that Chaturanga is an ancestor of chess, cards, and dominoes, and that it used dice with four symbols of four Indian castes: swords=warriors, sticks=peasants, cups=priests, coins=merchants. It also claims that the four card suits are somehow linked to the four DNA nucleotides.
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10:08:28 <zzo38> Of course that is complete nonsense. Indian cards do not use Latin suits, and the game of Chaturanga does not even use dice. (A different game, called Chaturaji, does use dice, although they have the numbers 2 to 5 and not the Latin card suits.)
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11:30:34 <b_jonas> hehe, “check each bean individually”
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12:04:03 <rdococ> more loke encyclopedia of absolute stupidity
12:13:50 <rdococ> I'm trying to think of how to do an ifEqual(x, y, trueCase, falseCase) in Tautologos
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12:15:42 <int-e> what part of "relative knowledge" is so hard to understand?
12:15:58 <rdococ> relative knowledge is fake?
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12:17:08 <int-e> `learn Intelligence is a scarce resource that is distributed by the CIA.
12:17:09 <rdococ> maybe there is an alternate universe
12:17:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'intelligence': Intelligence is a scarce resource that is distributed by the CIA.
12:17:56 <rdococ> `learn Stupidity is created when people are too lazy to think correctly.
12:17:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'stupidity': Stupidity is created when people are too lazy to think correctly.
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13:40:38 <boily> @tell oerjann hellørjanne! GG!
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14:30:56 <boily> rdocelloc. tick tock?
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14:45:31 <lambdabot> Local time for boily is Mon, 28 Mar 2016 10:45:30 -0400
14:45:46 <rdococ> how many americans can there be
14:46:01 <rdococ> can I go back to the past
14:49:30 <boily> I'm not American, I'm Canadian, eh?
14:50:19 <boily> it's a great big maple stick. it's very useful to thwack people :D
14:50:20 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
14:51:23 <boily> if you live in the future, I guess you're European?
15:00:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tautologos]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46669 * Rdococ * (+2709) We must go deeper.
15:01:05 <rdococ> my new, unimplemented programming language
15:01:16 <rdococ> it's a boy! wait, programming languages don't have gender
15:01:47 <Taneb> I need to write up an article on COMPLEX
15:02:07 <rdococ> hey, atleast they're not slightly modified versions of brain****
15:02:12 <boily> Tanelle. what's COMPLEX?
15:02:38 <boily> of course programming languages have gender. «un langage de programmation» is masculine.
15:03:17 <rdococ> just because it's french?
15:03:25 <rdococ> okay, so what would be feminine?
15:03:48 <Taneb> boily, it's a BASIC-inspired programming language that lets you manipulate the vector the program counter is moving on, onto the complex plane
15:03:56 <rdococ> wow, inserting gender stereotypes, my least favourite thing into my favourite thing
15:04:42 <Taneb> "Programmiersprache" is feminine
15:04:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46670&oldid=46462 * Rdococ * (+17)
15:05:16 <boily> shachaf: hellochaf. which gender is a programming language in Hebrew?
15:05:27 <rdococ> so "programming language" is feminine and "a programming language" is masculine
15:05:29 <boily> rdococ: go against the grain!
15:05:43 <rdococ> clap clap clap, making masculine programming languages look more expendable
15:06:01 <Taneb> boily, according to my wiktionarying, feminine
15:06:30 <rdococ> programming languages have no gender
15:06:41 <rdococ> we're not adding a stupid thing called gender into the purity of programming
15:06:47 <rdococ> unless it's something else disguised as danger
15:07:07 <Taneb> I'm gonna guess English is your first language
15:07:45 <rdococ> but you're talking about language, not the programming language itself as a concept
15:09:08 <Taneb> boily, would you say le Haskell? Or la Haskell? Or is my poor knowlege of French letting me down
15:10:09 <Taneb> boily, anyway, there's an explanation of COMPLEX on my esolangs page https://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/esolangs.html
15:10:20 <tromp> surely it's le Haskell Curry
15:10:24 <boily> «du Haskell». it's still masculine, but partitive because it's an unquantifiable abstract concept.
15:10:55 <b_jonas> boily: does it have an h aspiré?
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15:12:33 <boily> b_jonas: looks like so. English name, English is of Germanic origin, h aspiré by default.
15:22:25 <rdococ> BASIC stands for "Beginners' All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code"
15:23:45 <Taneb> COMPLEX, as I've used it, is short for "COMPutational Language EXtension"
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15:32:49 <rdococ> can I look at the contents of another esolang's page so I can make a table?
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15:58:05 <rdococ> simply looking at articles that talk about BASIC make me want to program in it
15:58:45 <rdococ> I always get this weird version of nostalgia when I see stuff like that, even though I haven't even touched it before
16:02:08 <rdococ> if only I could get an old computer...
16:02:39 <rdococ> I think they need to re-introduce the language
16:02:57 <rdococ> (do schools even do programming?)
16:04:36 <int-e> . o O ( excel and html )
16:06:00 <boily> depends on the school, really. we did LOGO when I was in elementary.
16:06:16 <boily> turtle graphics on old 486es for the win!
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16:15:12 <int-e> let's see... how about Bavaria, Germany... grade 9: spread sheets, databases, grade 10: object oriented programming, grade 11: recursive data structures, software engineering, grade 12: formal languages, process communication and synchronization, computer architecture, limits of computability
16:19:47 <Taneb> boily, I didn't do any programming in school
16:20:00 <rdococ> since I have high functioning autism, they put me in a special school, and they don't even teach algebra at year 7/8/9
16:20:04 <Taneb> The first programming I did was using an online Piet editor and interpreter
16:20:43 <rdococ> put it this way - I'm smarter than students of my age, and then I get put into a dumber school
16:21:13 <olsner> Taneb: somehow doesn't seem like the typical way to start :)
16:21:17 <int-e> ah, it goes back further under a different headline. grade 7 introduces Internet, E-mail (briefly), and Algorithms, and grade 6 has representation of information, and office software and file systems,
16:21:40 <Taneb> olsner, yeah, I've never picked up some important habits
16:21:56 <Taneb> Like comments, and useful variable names
16:22:06 <Taneb> But Piet was the first programming language I learnt
16:22:06 <olsner> Taneb: do you find yourself trying to paint in other languages?
16:23:04 <b_jonas> Taneb: what? but piet is IDEAL for writing comments
16:23:16 <b_jonas> it even lets you make the comments pretty
16:23:30 <Taneb> b_jonas, it's hard to write a pixel at a time
16:23:34 <int-e> So they have some limited exposure to programming in grade 7.
16:24:26 <b_jonas> Taneb: no it's not! that's how people wrote all the books with pens and inscribed all the engravings to stone before printing and typewriters were invented.
16:24:37 <int-e> (basic imperative programming... then some OO... anything else they'll have to pick up outside of school)
16:24:47 <int-e> but whatever. it used to be worse.
16:25:44 <int-e> oh and spreadsheets are a form of declarative programming, of course, though rather limited
16:26:19 <rdococ> what are you talking about? I'm year 8 and I barely get exposure to computers
16:26:40 <rdococ> I can't take it anymore, I want to do something interesting
16:27:06 <b_jonas> rdococ: yes, that sucks, but at least it's better than back when you also didn't have the internet to talk to other people about it
16:27:17 <b_jonas> lots of children suffered from that
16:27:37 <b_jonas> go learn stuff online and do something interesting
16:28:20 <rdococ> wait, browser based version of BASIC? this might work
16:28:31 <int-e> rdococ: I was talking about one concrete curriculum that I found online.
16:28:53 <rdococ> int-e: now I wish I was german
16:29:33 <int-e> And even inside Germany there will be differences.
16:30:15 <int-e> (since ridiculously education isn't managed on a federal level but on the state level)
16:31:25 <b_jonas> ok, sorry, I shouldn't ask that
16:32:01 <rdococ> I feel like I'm temporally shifted in spacetime
16:32:12 <rdococ> "remembering" the past before I was born
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16:35:46 <int-e> b_jonas: Maybe two points... it makes moving within Germany unecessarily hard on children, and it leads to different standards of education in the various states (a lot of which can be explained by budget concerns)
16:37:03 <int-e> I do realize that a centralized system would at best solve half of that problem...
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17:06:51 <shachaf> boily: "language" is feminine hth
17:11:38 <rdococ> why do people give random words gender
17:11:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: “langue” is feminine but “langage” is masculine and “dialecte” is masculin too
17:13:33 <b_jonas> rdococ: they're not gender, they're grammatical gender. not the same.
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17:16:24 <HackEgo> RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS
17:21:49 <rdococ> I've only made one language like that
17:22:26 <rdococ> unless you count the "Beginners' All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code, Esoteric Revision" which I'm making the article for right now
17:28:15 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/rdococ
17:28:32 <int-e> HackEgo: come on, this is easy!
17:29:19 * int-e twiddles HackEgo's virtual thumbs.
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17:30:42 <b_jonas> Apart from me, who else is known to have created a new esoteric programming language by mistake of misunderstanding another programming language?
17:31:13 <int-e> `rm wisdom/rdococ rdococlikestomakelanguageslikethis
17:32:00 <int-e> ITWASAPREDICTIONANDITWASRIGHT!ALLHAILOERJANTHEPRESCIENTMASTEROF#ESOTERIC!
17:32:27 <zzo38> I think I have not done, but I cannot remember. I also do not believe anyone else has done although perhaps that also I did not remember.
17:32:56 <int-e> (though I suppose it actually was somebody else... hmmmmm)
17:33:16 <b_jonas> BancSTAR could be such a language of course, we don't know
17:33:25 <b_jonas> I mean, our version of BANCStar
17:33:28 <HackEgo> RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS
17:33:40 <rdococ> `rm wisdom/rdococ RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS
17:33:41 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/rdococ RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS': No such file or directory
17:34:35 <int-e> actually it wasn't... fun. oerjan still had to learn how to use le/rn.
17:34:41 <boily> rdococ: you are wisdommed. you can't be erased. accept the assimilation.
17:34:57 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen.
17:35:01 <HackEgo> "Only sane man" boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department. He is also a renowned Capitalist.
17:35:37 <zzo38> It is possible that some things on the esolang wiki about BANCStar are wrong. There is some that I believe is certainly wrong; I have posted what I believe is correct.
17:35:47 <zzo38> (But possibly I am also wrong)
17:35:50 <int-e> Don't fight the wisdom. Embrace it!
17:36:05 * int-e embraces his inner non-swedishness.
17:37:08 <int-e> `? misspellings of croissant
17:37:09 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
17:37:39 <int-e> that seems to be the only spell in there
17:37:42 <rdococ> yay for trying to make a Sonic game in a web browser version of BASIC
17:38:23 <HackEgo> Zork is like York, except for the first letter.
17:38:52 <zzo38> My own conclusions come from looking at existing BANCStar programs, rather than looking at the codes for the program to generate the printout
17:39:05 <b_jonas> Once cast, a spell can be undone. But once created, a wisdom entry can never again be erased. – Pontifex, elder researcher
17:39:06 <HackEgo> xargs is for piping snowmen.
17:39:36 <zzo38> Such as, my own guess is that command 3100 seems to mean that if the condition is not true then it is an error and the user must rekey the input.
17:40:55 <lambdabot> LOWI 281720Z 12014G26KT 090V170 9999 FEW070 BKN300 14/03 Q1006 NOSIG
17:41:02 <boily> are there any screenshots, examples, videos or captures of a BANCStar programme running?
17:41:12 <lambdabot> CYUL 281737Z 14016KT 2 1/4SM -DZ BR SCT009 OVC014 07/06 A2944 RMK SF3ST5 SLP973
17:41:22 <zzo38> There is also the code that "only ten people in the world can read", which I have partially figured out and guessed at the rest.
17:41:27 <boily> -DZ BR... more like it was pouring a few minutes ago.
17:41:47 <zzo38> boily: I do not know of any screenshots
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17:42:19 <boily> nah, it's warm today! +7 °C!
17:42:22 <rdococ> I can't do nested arrays in Quite BASIC?
17:42:30 <int-e> How did mist become BR, hmm.
17:42:31 <rdococ> wait, does BASIC even have nested arrays?
17:42:40 <boily> yes, at least Turbo BASIC.
17:42:51 <int-e> "BR, Mist (French: Brume)"
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17:43:05 <int-e> The French strike again.
17:43:15 <boily> of course! we're everywhere!
17:44:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46671&oldid=45551 * B jonas * (+164)
17:46:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46672&oldid=45479 * B jonas * (+124)
17:47:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus Severus]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46673&oldid=45521 * B jonas * (+149)
17:48:25 <b_jonas> I really should give a name to the original language of David so I can talk about it. What should I name it?
17:48:42 <zzo38> I also believe that colour codes are actually PC codes and not ANSI codes; I don't know why they wrote that it is ANSI codes
17:48:57 <zzo38> b_jonas: David Language
17:49:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, there's at least one other esoteric programming language by David Madore
17:49:44 <b_jonas> (plus he has his own slightly esoteric dialect of French)
17:51:29 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that
17:51:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: he invented Unlambda
17:51:44 <zzo38> Ask David Madore (if possible)
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17:54:44 <b_jonas> Does there exist a double-ended toothbrush that has a brush head on both ends of the same handle?
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17:55:27 <b_jonas> It seems there are double toothbrushes that have two heads on the same end of the handle
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17:56:32 <b_jonas> It seems such a thing exists: https://groomies.es/es/dientes/958-cepillo-de-dientes-doble-extra-largo.html
17:56:38 <b_jonas> that's either crazy or esoteric
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18:00:22 <int-e> b_jonas: so can you find a four-headed one?
18:01:31 <int-e> (And why stop at that? you can go all Lucas and make a cross of toothbrushes!)
18:01:51 <int-e> Or a swiss army knife!
18:03:21 <b_jonas> yeah, or a whole toothbrush tree
18:03:55 <b_jonas> or http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1186.html with infinitely many heads
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18:15:34 <int-e> stupid n+1 step processes
18:17:07 <int-e> (something along the lines of "submit review" - "confirm review" ... apparently I expect that to be one step (especially since the previous dialog already offered me things like saving a draft))
18:18:55 <b_jonas> Someone should check what I wrote in the [[Amycus]] article and tell how much of that is nonsense
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18:25:50 <b_jonas> Those writeups should be rewritten though because they still contain sentences based on the origianl misunderstanding.
18:26:13 <b_jonas> But I can't rewrite them if I can't refer to the original language! Argh
18:36:47 <rdococ> (having to write the line numbers manually is a bit of a pain when I need to add lines in between lines)
18:37:16 <Taneb> rdococ, that's why COMPLEX lets you write the lines in any order you want!
18:37:57 <rdococ> no, I mean because I have to change each line number
18:38:33 <int-e> can't you leave gaps in the line numbers?
18:39:09 <int-e> the BASIC I grew up with used line numbers 10,20,30,... by default so that one could easily insert lines later
18:40:28 <b_jonas> Whereas the APL del editor lets you use non-integer line numbers, but the line numbers are only temporary, and they're reassigned with sequential numbers when you exit the del editor (or more like they're assigned when you enter the del editor, and only the sorted sequence of lines are saved when you exit it).
18:40:38 <rdococ> but then when the gaps are differentin length
18:41:55 <rdococ> is this APL del editor software or is it from when basic was taught in schools?
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18:43:21 <b_jonas> it's… um, part of the APL workspace software, just like how the line editor is part of most BASIC interpreters, and … well, it's probably older than BASIC taught in schools
18:44:07 <Taneb> APL is a programming language from back when they didn't really know what programming languages ought to look like
18:44:19 <Taneb> Back when to program you plugged your phone into your typewriter
18:44:41 <HackEgo> APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language.
18:44:48 <rdococ> ...did you actually have to plug a phone into the typewriter?
18:44:59 <rdococ> it'd have to be a telephone or something, I know that much
18:45:05 <rdococ> or am I just talking crazy
18:45:09 <Taneb> rdococ, yeah, because computers were huge big things that took up a room
18:45:29 <Taneb> So you rang the computer and plugged in your typewriter
18:45:37 <Taneb> An electric typewriter, of course
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18:45:42 <rdococ> you rang the computer...?
18:46:10 <Taneb> Seriously, APL is going back a long time
18:46:32 <b_jonas> rdococ: computers were expensive, so people used them remotely. by means of a terminal, which is the same as a telex machine, and is an electromechanical or electrical typewriter with a keyboard and either a printer or a CRT display or both, connected to a modem
18:46:35 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of five genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
18:47:16 <Taneb> Haven't seen elliott in ages :/
18:47:17 <b_jonas> where the modem transmits data through an analog telephone wire connected by the ordinary telephone network, plus the terminal may also have a ticker tape reader and puncher.
18:47:20 <int-e> b_jonas: why go to all that trouble when you can just hand the operators a stack of punched cards?
18:47:38 <rdococ> I'm working on a Sonic game in BASIC... or at least something close
18:48:02 <rdococ> but of course it's a modern version -- no, not visual basic
18:48:13 <b_jonas> int-e: the computer is in a remote location, and the telex transmits the data faster to such a remote location than any other way you could transmit the punch cards or ticker tape
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18:48:17 <rdococ> http://www.quitebasic.com/
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18:48:50 <b_jonas> There's some things I don't understand about terminals though
18:50:01 <b_jonas> 1. why are they called both terminals and telex machines and what's the difference, 2. how the fuck can an electromechanical typewriter do all the modem stuff without electronics, and 3. why did they even bother with electromechanics when electronics were already available by the time the terminals were created.
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18:50:55 <rdococ> is telex an old version of fax or something?
18:51:04 <int-e> uh, they just repurposed telegraphy service devices... that's what telex machines are.
18:51:47 <int-e> "terminal" is just a different view on the topology... it's not, say, a repeater connecting two lines, but and end point.
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18:52:03 <b_jonas> rdococ: sort of, but a telex transmits character data (where a character means 5 or 7 or 6 or 8 bits) whereas a fax transmits bitmap graphical data. both were used as sort of improved versions of telegraphy.
18:53:13 <int-e> oh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telex helps with terminology (terminalogy?)
18:53:47 <int-e> so we should really call the machines teletypes
18:55:21 <int-e> surprisingly (haha), wikipedia is inconsistent on this
18:55:24 <b_jonas> Back when we were young, telephone books contained telefax (fax) and telex numbers too, because some businesses and offices ran such machines, and they're connected to the ordinary telephone network. Today, there are no printed telephone books, and no telex network.
18:55:39 <int-e> on the Telegraphy page, they write "These machines were called "Telex" (TELegraph EXchange)."
18:56:47 <int-e> ...and we have paperless offices where fax machines are virtualized and soon phased out...
18:57:05 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, paperless offices where people print and then scan the emails they get.
18:57:38 <int-e> rdococ: Btw, this channel sometimes makes it hard to separate fact from fiction.
18:57:44 <b_jonas> the paperless parts never really works out well.
18:58:06 * b_jonas tries not to make the obvious joke
18:58:49 <int-e> "send an email, but fax a copy in case they don't read email, and send a letter as well so that they have a clean copy for the archives"
18:59:07 <int-e> (not sure where this is from... Dilbert?)
18:59:31 <int-e> yeah. http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-12-11
18:59:51 <int-e> 20 years later I suspect this is still true.
19:26:57 <int-e> `le/rn paperless/In a paperless world, rock would never lose.
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19:33:36 <zzo38> Someone else I know, although an atheist, said that if he made up the laws he would say that Canada is the Christian country, only for the purpose of the calendar. I am not sure that is necessary, since they are already national holidays, although maybe I missed something.
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20:25:03 <oren> i don't understand why people were depending on an external host to have a left pad function
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20:25:59 <Taneb> Because people who use JavaScript for non-web are not the best at system architecture
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20:27:39 <b_jonas> oren: huh what? what's this about this time?
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20:28:23 <b_jonas> ``` printf %70s "left pad function"
20:29:29 <Taneb> b_jonas, a lot of Node programmers got their projects broken when someone threw a tantrum and removed a package from npm
20:29:43 <Taneb> Said package was 11 lines long and just provided a left pad function
20:30:39 <Taneb> Node.js package manager
20:30:49 <Taneb> Like Hackage or crates.io or something
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20:36:33 <zzo38> You can easily implement a left pad function in one line of a JavaScript code: const leftpad=(x,y,z)=>(z.repeat(y)+x).slice(-y);
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20:37:08 <ais523> zzo38: I imagine that's a little inefficient as you generate the string of y zs regardless of what the input is
20:37:17 <myname> zzo38: thatjs way to performant
20:37:18 <ais523> but yes, that seems like a good demonstration of how simple the function is
20:37:21 <zzo38> I do have some Node.js packages too
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20:38:04 <myname> ais523: that depens on what string concatenation and repeat are doing
20:38:23 <ais523> myname: this is unlikely as an optimization
20:38:30 <myname> it string + string always needs to copy anything it would be really slow
20:39:46 <myname> padding an empty string would be n^2 then
20:39:55 <myname> repeat cannot be worse than that
20:41:42 <ais523> @tell oerjan I can't see deleted templates on Wikipedia (other than via WP:REFUND which seems rather a waste of admin time), but a) it seems likely, b) the template is unused and probably not useful, c) the template is buggy, d) the template may be uncopyrightable because there's no other sensible way to write its functionality
20:42:19 <myname> if repeat isn't implemented completely stupid it would need O(y) time + one concat + O(y) slice
20:42:35 <myname> the other version needs O(y) concats
20:42:56 <myname> assuming that concat is slow, zzo38's version is way faster
20:42:57 <ais523> myname: concat may be O(a) time rather than O(a+b) time where the lengths of the strings are a and b
20:43:13 <ais523> oh, I'm not talking about the original left-pad, that one is probably really slow
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20:47:25 <zzo38> Can DVD-video support text captions? What happen if you record a TV show with captions on a DVD?
20:47:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think it can support text captions, and I don't know
20:48:12 <Taneb> zzo38, most DVD recorders I believe take it out of the display, which will include captions if they are displayed at the time of recording
20:49:02 <zzo38> Taneb: The DVD recorder I have does have the ability to display captions.
20:49:55 <zzo38> But I mean if it can support text captions which are separate from subtitles
20:51:21 <b_jonas> wait, they're separate from subtitles...
20:52:38 <zzo38> Captions are text and subtitles are pictures. This means that it is possible to customize the settings for font size and colours of captions.
20:53:00 <zzo38> But for subtitles you have to use whatever font is recorded on the disc instead.
20:54:16 <zzo38> My own opinion is that only captions should be used and subtitles should not be used except possibly for compatibility purpose.
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20:56:41 <zzo38> I found a webpage for a computer program, and it says that DVDs do support captions.
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21:03:19 <zzo38> Does any show have captions for the descriptive video in addition to the normal speech?
21:06:37 -!- lynn has joined.
21:07:53 <HackEgo> slist: Taneb atriq Ngevd nvd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
21:08:07 <Taneb> I'm the only person on that list who'st actually in here
21:08:13 <Taneb> And I'm most of the list
21:08:43 <shachaf> that's why it's called solipsism list
21:10:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
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21:11:02 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of five genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
21:11:38 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, gazpacho, Stephen Wolfram, Go, submarine jousting, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, Lambek's lemma, robots, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
21:11:59 <shachaf> I feel like maybe that wisdom entry should rhyme.
21:12:04 <shachaf> To some Gilbert & Sullivan tune, perhaps.
21:12:30 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
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21:12:51 <rdococ> should I keep working on my Sonic attempt in Quite BASIC?
21:13:02 <HackEgo> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
21:13:19 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/tanebvention
21:13:25 <HackEgo> shachaf b_jonas oerjan shachaf shachaf boily boily shachaf oerjan oerjan Taneb oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan FireFly oerjan boily oerjan ais523 ais523 oerjan
21:14:29 <HackEgo> You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
21:14:49 <HackEgo> RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS
21:14:56 <boily> rdochellloc. the szoups are complex. please consult the Wisdom PDF hth
21:15:06 * boily ought to retopic the PDF...
21:15:11 <boily> rdococ: just a moment...
21:15:21 <boily> IT IS REAL! REALER THAN CANADA! EH!
21:15:54 <shachaf> boily: shachaf mipesha hth
21:16:35 <boily> rdococ: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf?dl=0
21:16:57 <boily> (warning: may not be quite exactly up to date at all. I'm several months out of touch with the latest installments.)
21:18:10 <shachaf> boily: did you demaur it yet hth
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21:19:50 -!- lynn has quit (Disconnected by services).
21:20:29 -!- lynn_ has changed nick to lynn.
21:20:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: source: not found
21:21:03 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:22:57 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
21:23:05 <fungot> int-e: in one min. soon
21:23:16 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
21:24:29 -!- lynn_ has joined.
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21:25:33 <boily> shachaf: I don't think so hth
21:26:22 <shachaf> lynn_: is "demure" a good adjective for you
21:27:54 -!- lynn has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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21:31:07 <HackEgo> 130) <alise> Phantom_Hoover: Don't be nasty; he's a lunatic, not a murderer. \ 271) <Vorpal> elliott, it was an artful robbery! <Vorpal> wait, murder \ 753) <monqy> you've constructed a situation in which i have no choice but to die in 10 days <monqy> well done <monqy> that's murder \ 1080) <zzo38> Even if the people who made that program is a m
21:31:14 <boily> lynn__ is emulating Phantom_________Hoover...
21:31:15 -!- lynn has joined.
21:31:24 <boily> lynn: hellynn. connection problems?
21:31:43 <lynn> Really horrible ones ;___;
21:32:18 <shachaf> even lynn's ascii face is emulating Phantom_________Hoover
21:32:35 <shachaf> assuming that's a face, i don't really know how to read those things
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21:34:19 <rdococ> what if it's secret code in a secret programming language? ___;_;____;;;
21:34:34 <boily> darn. wrong unicode diamond.
21:35:10 -!- lynn has quit (Client Quit).
21:35:14 <HackEgo> 1010) <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
21:35:47 <HackEgo> 1010) <Bike> ◊_______________________◊ <elliott> help. <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ elliott <Phantom_Hoover> apply pressure evenly when jamming eyes open
21:35:59 <HackEgo> 1238) <rdococ> what? I just wanted a laugh... lol <rdococ> I need to stop using lol, lol <olsner> just stop then, hth
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21:37:13 <boily> Guest57498: don't you dare die on us!
21:37:27 -!- Guest57498 has changed nick to lynn.
21:37:37 -!- lynn has quit (Changing host).
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21:41:01 <lynn> Now I’m on some kinda cloud thing. So, that might work better?
21:45:33 <b_jonas> `learn The cloud is a server Blackhat guy runs, connected to the internet through a cable modem. There's a lot of caching. Cloud is also the shape of clouds.
21:45:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'cloud': The cloud is a server Blackhat guy runs, connected to the internet through a cable modem. There's a lot of caching. Cloud is also the shape of clouds.
21:48:11 <int-e> Hmm. NSA is a kind of caching service.
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21:54:06 <myname> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/S6_(classification) wait, what
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22:27:29 <int-e> b_jonas: I finally found the individually checked beans. That must be a fun way to pass time.
22:29:57 -!- nycs has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
22:30:01 <int-e> Hanners, of course.
22:30:28 <int-e> (Well, at least until she finds a bad bean.)
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23:00:49 <lambdabot> ais523 said 2h 19m 6s ago: I can't see deleted templates on Wikipedia (other than via WP:REFUND which seems rather a waste of admin time), but a) it seems likely, b) the template is unused and probably not useful, c) the template is buggy, d) the template may be uncopyrightable because there's no other sensible way to write its functionality
23:01:36 * oerjan interprets (d) as an excuse to do nothing hth
23:02:35 <ais523> well it's also unused and I can't see an obvious use for it
23:02:43 <Taneb> Can you patent a wikipedia template
23:03:22 -!- jaboja has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:07:46 <oerjan> ais523: since when has that been a reason to delete anything on our wiki :P
23:07:58 <ais523> oerjan: in terms of articles or templates? :P
23:08:11 <ais523> templates are kind of meta-stuff, they have different topicality rules
23:09:15 <oerjan> hey don't ruin the joke with details
23:09:30 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
23:09:56 <ais523> oh, I thought you were trying to use sarcasm to make as serious point
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23:13:51 <oerjan> `learn CIA sees it all.
23:13:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'cia': CIA sees it all.
23:14:22 <shachaf> i thought it stood for cookies in advance
23:14:26 <shachaf> the next level of thanks in advance
23:16:59 <HackEgo> Stupidity is created when people are too lazy to think correctly.
23:17:07 <oerjan> i think this is somehow meta.
23:17:19 <oerjan> possibly in two different ways.
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23:21:37 -!- tromp_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
23:21:44 <int-e> `learn meta is about
23:21:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'meta': meta is about
23:22:34 <int-e> `` find -type f wisdom | wc -l
23:22:35 <HackEgo> find: paths must precede expression: wisdom \ Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [-Olevel] [-D help|tree|search|stat|rates|opt|exec] [path...] [expression] \ 0
23:22:44 <int-e> `` find wisdom -type f | wc -l
23:23:23 <int-e> `` find wisdom -type f | xargs cat | wc -c
23:23:24 <HackEgo> xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option \ cat: wisdom/¯(°_o)/¯(°_o)a: No such file or directory \ cat: wisdom/¯(°_o)/¯: No such file or directory \ cat: wisdom/for: No such file or directory \ cat: further: No such file or directory \ cat: details.: No such file or directory \ cat: w
23:23:30 <oerjan> <boily> @tell oerjann hellørjanne! GG! <-- helloily. poor oerjann will be so confused.
23:23:39 <int-e> `` find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 cat | wc -c
23:23:55 <shachaf> int-e: Are you sure there are no files in wisdom/ containing newlines?
23:24:29 <int-e> shachaf: well, it seems fairly useless, but no, I'm not sure.
23:25:02 <int-e> uh, that seems a bit big...
23:25:25 <shachaf> `` ls -sR wisdom | sort -rn
23:25:27 <HackEgo> 10240 irrelevant info \ 4 Э \ 4 э \ 4 αλτγρ+γ \ 4 zzo38mtg.php \ 4 zzo38mtg \ 4 zzo38card \ 4 zzo38 \ 4 zygohistomorphic prepromorphism \ 4 zork \ 4 zomgmodules \ 4 zombiecheney \ 4 zkstr \ 4 zimbabwe \ 4 yuy \ 4 york \ 4 yorick \ 4 yoda \ 4 yeeesh \ 4 yeeeesh \
23:25:30 <shachaf> `` cat wisdom/irrelevant info
23:25:31 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/irrelevant: No such file or directory \ cat: info: No such file or directory
23:25:38 <shachaf> `cat wisdom/irrelevant info
23:25:39 <HackEgo> KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW
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23:25:45 <shachaf> `file wisdom/irrelevant info
23:25:46 <HackEgo> wisdom/irrelevant info: data
23:25:58 <shachaf> `` hg log 'wisdom/irrelevant info' | grep summary:
23:26:00 <HackEgo> summary: <Roujo> cat /dev/urandom > wisdom/\'irrelevant info\'
23:26:05 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/irrelevant info
23:26:06 <shachaf> `rm wisdom/irrelevant info
23:26:28 <HackEgo> shachaf oerjan elliott Roujo
23:26:36 <int-e> `` find wisdom -type f -print0 | xargs -0 cat | wc -c
23:26:51 <int-e> okay, that's far more plausible.
23:27:03 <shachaf> `` hg log | grep summary: | grep Roujo
23:27:06 <HackEgo> summary: <Roujo> rm bin/f\x16\x16rink \ summary: <Roujo> echo "14484096/625 \\(exactly 23174.5536\\)" > bin/f\x16\x16rink \ summary: <Roujo> chmod +x bin/f\x16\x16rink \ summary: <Roujo> echo "14484096/625 (exactly 23174.5536)" > bin/f\x16\x16rink \ summary: <Roujo> echo "cf. elliott" > wisdom/godot \ summary: <Roujo> echo "
23:27:13 <shachaf> `` hg log | grep summary: | grep Roujo | paste
23:27:23 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.4893
23:29:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: echo: not found
23:31:37 <int-e> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log?rev=Roujo&revcount=1000 ...
23:32:14 <shachaf> I guess that's better than paste.
23:33:06 <int-e> the trick is to add the &revcount bit manually
23:33:33 <int-e> (since the "more" and "less" links are broken)
23:34:37 <lambdabot> ENVA 282320Z 12010G20KT 070V160 9999 SCT050 BKN120 09/00 Q0991 RMK WIND 670FT 15016G30KT
23:34:45 <shachaf> that doesn't seem all that icy
23:34:46 <oerjan> shachaf: spring is a-coming
23:34:55 <shachaf> (i'm joking i have no idea how to read metar hth)
23:35:12 <int-e> surely you can read the 09/00 part?
23:35:12 <oerjan> shachaf: i met a man on the road this evening who said it was unusually mild hth
23:35:26 <lambdabot> KOAK 282253Z 28018KT 10SM SCT020 17/03 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP117 T01670033
23:35:26 <shachaf> int-e: yes, but that doesn't tell me whether it's icy hth
23:35:31 <shachaf> oerjan: do they even have pigeons in norway?
23:35:42 <boily> parks, for pooches.
23:35:48 <int-e> shachaf: seems unlikely at 9 degrees celsius.
23:36:07 <lambdabot> LOWI 282320Z AUTO 26004KT 230V300 9999 NCD 06/02 Q1010
23:36:13 * oerjan is considering putting on a non-winter jacket
23:36:22 <int-e> oh, a bit colder than I expected.
23:36:26 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
23:36:28 <lambdabot> CYUL 282324Z 36013KT 4SM -RA BR OVC004 04/03 A2939 RMK ST8 SLP956 \ ENVA 282320Z 12010G20KT 070V160 9999 SCT050 BKN120 09/00 Q0991 RMK WIND 670FT 15016G30KT \ ESSB 282320Z AUTO 13010KT 9999 BKN057/// 05/01 Q1002 \ KOAK 282253Z 28018KT 10SM SCT020 17/03 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP117 T01670033
23:36:29 <oerjan> shachaf: we have pigeons. also parks. sometimes coincidental.
23:37:26 <shachaf> boily: poisoning pooches in the park? i hope not
23:38:38 <int-e> Does this allude to "Taubenvergiften im Park"?
23:39:04 <b_jonas> oerjan: is that like http://www.xkcd.com/90/ ?
23:39:25 <boily> shachaf: poisoning? fungot no!
23:39:25 <fungot> boily: all of those don't let you borrow zem. zem doesn't have win98 or a floppy drive or anything, it is woefully underpowered.
23:39:32 <oerjan> wait pooches are just dogs in general? i was imagining it was some kind of silly breed.
23:39:41 <int-e> Oh, I didn't know of the Tom Lehrer song.
23:39:49 <shachaf> oerjan: dogs in general are a silly breed hth
23:40:16 <b_jonas> int-e: which one? the Elements song?
23:40:24 <b_jonas> I don't make any sense, do I?
23:40:28 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:40:50 <int-e> no, the one about poisoning pigeons in the park
23:41:26 <b_jonas> fungot, who is your nemesis?
23:41:26 <fungot> b_jonas: i think mine predates yours" issue, and i
23:41:33 <fungot> b_jonas: now i was trying to say " no". the only client box is the 486. i cannot fnord it's the plural of " virus"
23:41:47 <oerjan> fizzie: is zem still woefully underpowered?
23:43:04 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It's always weird to look at a fungot message before checking the usernaem
23:43:04 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: it works on the structure of the configuration language.)
23:43:11 <oerjan> b_jonas: it is indeed next to my winter jacket hth
23:43:37 <hppavilion[1]> fungot: That was pretty coherent, besides the trailing parenthesis. We're so proud of you.
23:43:37 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: is llama32 talking about loading .so files or something. i wonder what ( lambda ( data) expr)?
23:44:30 <hppavilion[1]> I think python should add two new operators (or 3, with an optional 5 others based off of one of the 2)
23:44:38 <oerjan> fizzie: ref. to fungot above
23:44:38 <fungot> oerjan: " one toke? you poor fool! wait till you see part 2 of 3)
23:45:06 <hppavilion[1]> := calls the left object's __assgn__ method, and :: calls the left object's __is_type__ method
23:45:13 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:45:34 <int-e> fungot: you're more incoherent than usual, is anything wrong?
23:45:35 <fungot> int-e: it uses ref counting, so cyclic data structures nor to hashes))) list)
23:45:46 <hppavilion[1]> The third operators is -> (which is right-associative) and calls the left object's __goesto__ method
23:45:52 <int-e> fungot: ah, false alarm then? good, good.
23:45:53 <shachaf> the := bone is connected to the __assign__ bone / the :: bone is connected to the __is_type__ bone
23:45:53 <fungot> int-e: i think they're playing the fnord
23:46:02 <shachaf> Oh, that line was hppavilion[1]. I thought it was fungot.
23:46:02 <fungot> shachaf: you're not meant to be
23:46:09 <fungot> shachaf: are you on the net... bah. i worked in d.c., some people asked for it :) i'm sorry, i'm bored. want to hear
23:46:34 <hppavilion[1]> The optional 5 are :!=, :>, :<, :>=, and :<=, which are made to work like := but for things other than equality
23:46:41 <fizzie> <egal> the situation is: behind me sits a netware3 server with important data. the only client box is the 486. i cannot use the data that's on the server hd, there's not enough space to copy the data to the client hd, i cannot put an additional disk into the client because of the bios thing.
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23:48:20 <hppavilion[1]> The main usage cases for the first 3 are a library I'm calling "typesafe" which creates a dependent/algebraic/static typesystem for Python in pure python and a library called "constraints" which is like "typesafe" that puts constraints on values (such as a variable always being positive, or always being between 5 and 9) (this would also benefit from those optional 5)
23:49:05 <int-e> fizzie: that's some old hard- and software...
23:49:26 <fizzie> int-e: The line was from 2006. But it was pretty old even back then.
23:50:39 <hppavilion[1]> Typesafe can be implemented in current python, and a library similar to constraints already exits, but has some issues because either you use an ugly syntax involving method calls (x.set(5)) or you use up certain important operators (x << 5)
23:50:44 <fizzie> NetWare 3 apparenty dates to 1990, while NetWare 4 dates to 1993. Not that everyone would've been migrating their systems.
23:50:51 <oerjan> fizzie: um i didn't mean that line btw, there's one actually containing "zem".
23:51:14 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, there, I see.
23:51:43 <fizzie> oerjan: I had actually completely forgotten zem, but I think zem's still in a closet somewhere, probably back in Finland.
23:51:56 <fizzie> I assume it'd count as even more woefully underpowered now.
23:52:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: now all you have to do to have any chance of this happening is abduct guido van rossum and brainwash him. hth.
23:52:55 <fizzie> (Though slightly less so than the 486.)
23:54:22 <fizzie> Huh, that's a combination of quite many lines.
23:55:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: because what you're suggesting is pretty against his python philosophy afaict.
23:55:19 <oerjan> he probably also hates static typing, i'm not sure.
23:55:52 <oerjan> in the parts where you want to define operators that are synonyms for more readable features already existing.
23:56:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'd say the operators would be more readable
23:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It would be an optional type system, and it has other use cases. The purpose is for people who /want/ static typing to be able to do so in a pretty, non-`if type(x) == t` way
23:56:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i don't know 3.5. i'm saying my hunch is that guido would hate it.
23:57:08 <fizzie> 2003-03-16 19:04:19 <fizzie> oh well. if it blows up, I'll let you borrow zem. zem doesn't have win98 or a floppy drive. -g
23:57:12 <fizzie> 2003-04-14 21:01:43 <fizzie> now it doesn't have a floppy drive or anything, hnggh.
23:57:15 <fizzie> 2004-10-22 20:50:03 <jonnay> But really, As much as i like lisp-me for being able to hack-on-the-toilet, as a scheme, it is woefully underpowered.
23:57:18 <fizzie> Plus apparently an entirely disconnected "anything, it is" of which there are at least two.
23:58:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:58:10 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:59:39 <fizzie> The "it" on the second line is also zem. The floppy drive (or lack of it) was the link there, I guess.