00:00:33 <quintopia> ...the 60 minutes podcast is already freely available outside US...why take it from US?
00:02:21 -!- oerjan has set topic: All Europeans: Prepare your time machines! | The international hub of esoteric programming language and font design | http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | The kitten typesetting channel.
00:05:28 <oerjan> quintopia: to save it before trump becomes president, of course!
00:09:35 <int-e> Hmmm, I'd agree if "can't see" = "can't imagine what it would be like"
00:10:04 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: I'm thinking of making MOAR also produce JS, to make it a powerful scripting language too
00:10:38 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: In fact, I might just have to make an entire CSS-based programming language
00:10:45 <int-e> I imagine Trump would be a Zaphod Beeblebrox with actual power.
00:11:54 <oerjan> > 738/(738+463+166+143)*100
00:12:22 <oerjan> almost 50% of rep. delegates so far
00:12:32 <hppavilion[1]> I can't find any formal grammars for CSS online :(
00:13:23 <hppavilion[1]> The first change that would have to be made for programming in CSS is that stylation keys could have arguments
00:15:12 <hppavilion[1]> p_w := p {background-color: #FFFFFF; on-keypress('r'): {background-color: #FF0000; on-keypress('w'): $p_w}}
00:15:13 <quintopia> oerjan: if he wins the republican nod, it will either tear the party apart or make the ongoing civil cold war much hotter
00:17:17 <oerjan> quintopia: hm ok i agree, the polls indicate he wouldn't even win if against sanders
00:18:29 <oerjan> hm actually his chances are about equally glum regardless
00:20:18 <oerjan> huh actually sanders looks _better_ than clinton
00:22:02 <quintopia> this place will get exciting between now and november
00:24:04 <oerjan> interesting. all the 6 matchups on this poll site give sanders a better chance than clinton in the general election.
00:24:48 <oerjan> well in average points. who knows what that means in states.
00:25:12 <hppavilion[1]> (Though it's web dev, so that's probably already been done)
00:26:21 <shachaf> oerjan: which king are you going to vote for twh
00:26:50 <oerjan> i'm wondering who it is that prefers sanders over clinton if the democrats themselves don't...
00:26:55 <int-e> Queen Merkel, hmm.
00:27:59 <quintopia> oerjan: many rank-and-file dems prefer sanders
00:29:47 <oerjan> perhaps it's just some non-transitive preferences
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00:34:22 <oerjan> realclearpolitics.com (annoying popups though)
00:38:37 <kuluma> oh don't get me started on politics
00:38:41 <int-e> they're such a lovely perversion
00:44:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CCS]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46654 * Hppavilion1 * (+2083) Created (w/ Grammar)
00:45:18 <int-e> unfortunate name. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_of_communicating_systems
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00:53:30 <int-e> oh it's almost time to fasten the seatbelts
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00:58:12 <boily> int-ello. which ones?
00:58:35 <int-e> The ones on the time machine, of course.
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01:01:09 <int-e> I think I got the timing right :)
01:02:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CCS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46655&oldid=46654 * Hppavilion1 * (+2227) Semantics & example
01:03:02 <boily> . o O ( lesson of the day: don't eat too much dim sum when you're having an Armenian supper. waaaay too much food. )
01:03:26 <boily> int-e: you don't count; you're in a temporally shifted timeframe.
01:03:59 <int-e> I prefer to call it elevated.
01:04:35 <int-e> Also how did it get so late out of a sudden!!1elven
01:06:54 <oerjan> int-e: your subconscious is trying to tell you it was elves hth
01:07:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CCS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46656&oldid=46655 * Hppavilion1 * (+101) /* Features */ Rearranged, checklisted
01:07:17 <int-e> Ah now it makes sense.
01:07:52 <oerjan> boily: dim sum is armenian now?
01:08:44 <boily> hellørjan. sorry, lack of details. I had dim sum for lunch, and then Armenian food for supper hth
01:09:32 <boily> at least, today was shrimpful :D
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02:21:19 <FireFly> That's why I thought it was so late suddenly
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02:52:39 <zzo38> What is the strangest thing that you could do in orthodox Magic: the Puzzling?
02:53:30 <shachaf> What is orthodox Magic: the Puzzling?
02:54:20 <zzo38> Magic: the Puzzling that does not use any nonstandard rules or nonstandard cards.
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05:09:48 <zzo38> I made a document called x.version12.draft which has ideas about new stuff for a new version of the X window protocol. Many things are omitted, but also some things are added. A few features may especially make it more suitable for use with TV screens: VideoClass windows, translucent windows, and extra keysyms.
05:12:57 <zzo38> (The server is not guaranteed to support any or all of these features though; they are optional features.)
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08:08:48 <HackEgo> black: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
08:12:29 <black> who can help me with a esolang chllenge?
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09:23:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:=]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46658 * 111.37.28.34 * (+1) Created page with "="
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12:07:26 <boily> coppro: copprello.
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12:44:58 <coppro> I'm fleeing the country today
12:46:30 <boily> nooooo! can I ask a quick MtG question before you disappear in faraway lands?
12:58:32 <boily> we had a timing issue about the legendary rule this week:
12:58:59 <boily> suppose there's a Leyline of Singularity in play, and I have a Gray Merchant of Asphodel in play.
12:59:36 <boily> if I play a second Gary, will the devotion of the first count towards the ETB, or will the legendary rule apply first and dislodge the first Gary?
12:59:51 <coppro> if you play another grey merchant, you don't count the extra symbols. legendary rule is a state-based action so it applies once the ability goes on the stack and before it resolves
13:01:19 <boily> that's what we thought. thanks for the clarification.
13:01:39 * boily should become a judge some day...
13:06:19 <int-e> Repent or you shall BOIL!
13:16:40 <boily> int-ello. I am unrepentable hth
13:19:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Logique]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46660&oldid=40222 * Rdebath * (-389) Interpreter and github user gone.
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13:32:50 <coppro> boily: judging is easy hth
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14:10:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ODDBALL]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46661&oldid=40932 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
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16:21:13 <b_jonas> Is any big company who produces lots of https traffic known to send data in zlib format compression that is compressed better than the well-known libzlib library creates? The compression could be at ssl level or http level, but I'm specifically asking about zlib or gzip format, not deflate/zip/pkzip format.
16:22:32 <b_jonas> I'm asking because if someone is sending large chunks of well-compressible text or html or json or xml or whatever data at the same time, then they could totally gain a few percent of bandwidth on them just by using a better compressor backend.
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16:28:38 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I think https://github.com/google/zopfli is Google's answer to that
16:36:40 <olsner> hmm, but zlib/gzip *is* deflate/zip/pkzip?
16:37:15 <olsner> technically the headers differ, but in http content-encoding the headers are also optional
16:38:31 <b_jonas> olsner: no, I don't think it is
16:38:58 <b_jonas> olsner: the zip/deflate algorithm had patent problems at the time, didn't it?
16:39:04 <olsner> pkzip uses deflate without headers, zlib is deflate with zlib header, gzip is deflate with a gzip header
16:40:26 <b_jonas> maybe, I'll have to check this later
16:42:05 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but isn't that library for data you compress once and then distribute and decompress a lot of times, sort of how people optimized compress png images for webpages or games?
16:42:28 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I'm more asking about fast compression for data that only one or a few clients will decompress, where compression speed is needed
16:44:16 <lifthrasiir> not sure if other alternatives than zlib -1 exist
16:45:14 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: there are certainly other deflate backends, because 7-zip has one, but I don't know if there's one that is wrapped and actually used this way
16:45:35 <b_jonas> and there's like a dozen pkzip compressor implementations I think
16:45:47 <b_jonas> although most of them probably use zlib
16:45:59 <b_jonas> something like this should be totally possible
16:46:18 <b_jonas> you could even make something that's both interface-compatible and license-compatible with zlib so it's a drop-in replacement
16:48:40 <olsner> I think the better-than-zlib compressors that exist typically don't give you much, and some of them are really really slow (like zopfli)
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17:40:56 <\oren\> Hmm, it would be nice if there was a metar command that used emoji to tell you the waether
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17:52:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46662&oldid=44392 * Loovjo * (-3)
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18:19:51 <zzo38> LodePNG has its own DEFLATE implementation built-in but you can replace it with your own implementation instead
18:20:06 <HackEgo> [U+1E17 LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH MACRON AND ACUTE]
18:21:37 <myname> it's clearly a redskin
18:23:02 <Taneb> I've spent all afternoon trying to write a maze generator in Rust
18:23:29 <Taneb> http://i.imgur.com/6LtY0es.png
18:23:39 <Taneb> https://github.com/Taneb/Maze/blob/master/src/main.rs
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18:46:53 <zzo38> How do you debug the print version of a page in Firefox?
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18:50:43 <myname> what are you going to do with it
18:50:57 <Taneb> myname, I have no idea
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19:05:37 <Taneb> I don't use it often enough for it to stick in my head
19:06:13 <Taneb> I might try the next Ludum Dare with Rust
19:06:17 <myname> rust is like the best system language i know
19:06:30 <b_jonas> Taneb: how many Ludum Dare have you tried before?
19:06:58 <b_jonas> myname: no it's not. at least not yet. Rust has good foundations, but not good enough toolsets yet.
19:07:03 <Taneb> Um... minimalism, you only have one, you need to go deeper, and I think one other?
19:07:28 <Taneb> You only have one is the only thing I got anything close to a game on my own
19:07:32 <Taneb> Normally I do the game jam
19:07:43 <b_jonas> Taneb: what does the game jam mean?
19:07:50 <Taneb> b_jonas, teams, longer time limit
19:08:08 <b_jonas> it's not... edible marmalade made of the fat of game animals, right? because that would be strange
19:08:46 <Taneb> Well, that'd be a pate, for a start
19:08:47 <myname> Taneb: if you don't use ncurses yet you might consider termbox for terminal stuff
19:09:07 <Taneb> myname, this is just using print! and println!
19:09:40 <myname> but printing sucks for interaction
19:10:02 <myname> i once maee ncurses bindings for rust 0.4
19:10:09 <b_jonas> Taneb: since people make “cheese” from fruits and “sausages” from soy beans, I can imagine basically anything
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19:14:54 <HackEgo> [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0070 LATIN SMALL LETTER P] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+1E3F LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH ACUTE] [U+0325 COMBINING RING BELOW]
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19:50:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Chris Pressey]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46663&oldid=35014 * 104.163.157.132 * (+320) pull request ping
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20:36:08 <hppavilion[1]> Quick, someone design a hybrid processor (neural networking + conventional computing (+ a bit of emulated quantum maybe)?) and write an OS for it
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20:42:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XSM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46664&oldid=25391 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
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21:00:01 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: html parser?
21:01:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Hand-writing, because that's probably easier for the atrocity that is HTML
21:02:22 <boily> hppavellon[1]. HTML isn't that atrocious hth
21:02:45 <hppavilion[1]> Or at least something a browser is expected to accept
21:07:50 <zzo38> HTML is OK, and there is also XHTML which is more consistent than plain HTML
21:08:38 <zzo38> XML is terrible for things other than text markup, but for stuff like HTML it would seem reasonable.
21:11:33 <boily> XML is terrible for markup. XML is too there-are-multiple-ways-to-do-it.
21:12:05 <boily> there should be One Right Way™ to do markup, and it should be dutchly obvious.
21:15:15 <zzo38> XML is more complicated than it should be, which is certainly true.
21:16:08 <boily> I have a certain fondness towards dosini. it Does the Job®.
21:16:43 <boily> except, TOML fills in quite a few gaping holes dosini has.
21:17:30 <zzo38> However also, XML is used for a lot of data where something else such as JSON or RDF or INI might work better.
21:18:59 <boily> JSON has its own appeal, RDF is a horrible mangulation, and I already like INI.
21:19:38 <boily> I did some JSON evangelism when it first got its hype, but then I got bitten too many times by poor support of numerical types.
21:20:32 <pikhq> To be fair-ish, JSON *itself* doesn't have too bad a support for arbitrary numeric values.
21:20:57 <pikhq> It's just "any numeric value expressible in decimal notation".
21:21:20 <pikhq> ... Unfortunately, this then gets implemented poorly because that's only representable using arbitrary-precision decimal floats.
21:21:41 <pikhq> So in practice it's just "assume IEEE double".
21:22:02 <pikhq> INI's not bad, if only useful for a subset of things.
21:22:37 <zzo38> Note that I refer to pure RDF without any OWL or other stuff like that.
21:30:29 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
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21:42:09 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn XML/XML stands for "X-treme Mega Language (of Awesomeness)"
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21:42:39 <hppavilion[1]> (That does not necessarily reflect my actual opinions on XML)
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21:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> With a combination of logic programming and CFG and JSON and stuff. With many, many types of object.
21:46:10 <boily> KRF? Kool Rad Format?
21:46:54 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Yes, also known as a Knowledge Representation Format
21:50:42 <boily> I only had 2/3 right. better luck next time...
21:52:32 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Hm... what should the model of the knowledge base be?
21:56:33 <boily> 2/3. I know my fractions, tyvm :D
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22:07:28 <zzo38> I have made up partial idea of "Macro-RDF", although no implementation currently exists. How it works is: A graph may contain macro nodes and/or macro literals, and macro processors will read such triples in order to create the graph which does not contain any macro nodes and macro literals. Macro nodes and macro literals use a new URI pseudoscheme called "macro:", like "view-source:" the scheme is followed by another URI.
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22:21:49 <zzo38> (Another storage format for arbitrary data is my own format called ARF (ASCII Records Format), although which involves non-printable characters which may mean a special editor is required.)
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22:38:42 <pikhq> Oh, actually using the ASCII record indicators?
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22:47:34 <zzo38> (If you need to include the record indicators into the actual data being stored too for any reason, then they must be escaped by a "data link escape" character.)
22:56:51 <zzo38> Does Xlib have any support for "reverse connections"?
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22:57:30 <zzo38> (Support for reverse connections does not affect the protocol in any way.)
22:58:46 <rdococ> Have I been here all this time?
22:59:02 <boily> everyone's been all the places they have been at when then.
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23:00:10 <rdococ> I already made up a programming language more basic than BASIC, so now I'm thinking up a programming language more basic than that.
23:02:58 <MDude> I'm imagining you working on a programming language that's written via finger painting.
23:04:11 <oerjan> @ask ais523 Is the new Template:Cnw a copy of the previously deleted template on Wikipedia? (Template:= is clearly identical, but I think that's too short to be copyright. And X2 is something else entirely.)
23:05:24 <MDude> Does the more basic than basic language have any kind of system for graphics and such?
23:05:43 <rdococ> analog piet? you mean it's like an actual drawing instead of array of pixels?
23:06:16 <rdococ> I guess it could if it was like Piet.
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23:07:04 <oerjan> rdococ: the topic does not imply anything about whether you're European or not. but if you are, welcome to the future!
23:07:28 <MDude> I'd think part of what made Basic so basic is that it was originally made for a very simple environment.
23:07:40 <oerjan> (i think americans may have entered the future some weeks ago.)
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23:09:09 <rdococ> oerjan: But it does imply that Europeans weren't in the future beforehand. Which is true, because they were in the present. In fact, everyone's in the present right now. Ignoring relativity.
23:09:39 <shachaf> oerjan: americans have been in the future for ~240 years
23:09:55 * oerjan considers what a language more forth than FORTH would be.
23:10:02 <rdococ> Wow, it must be a bad future then.
23:10:33 <shachaf> are any ideas forthcoming?
23:10:34 <rdococ> Remember - entropy increases with time. So you are basically saying America has a high disorder.
23:11:16 <shachaf> we offload our entropy to other countries
23:11:43 <MDude> We're in the future in the sense that what we experience is the past due to our brains taking time to process their senses.
23:12:15 <rdococ> People that have moved at high velocities for longer are in the past. I think.
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23:15:55 <oerjan> apparently russia has been stuck in the past since 2014.
23:16:40 <oerjan> after being stuck in the future since 2011.
23:17:33 <oerjan> rdococ: they're clocks have not been adjusted forward since then hth
23:18:07 * oerjan takes out the muphryscope and starts hunting
23:18:27 * oerjan thinks rdococ might get stuck in confusion if he keeps up
23:18:37 <boily> the Jägerørjan is Hunting!
23:19:14 <olsner> muphryscope, misspelled as appropriate
23:19:49 <shachaf> my clock gets adjusted forward every second
23:22:09 <rdococ> so they forgot about dst
23:23:20 <oerjan> <shachaf> we offload our entropy to other countries <-- http://narbonic.com/comic/december-4-9-2006/ strip 4, panel 2 hth
23:25:28 <rdococ> basic, basicer, and now, um, basicerer
23:29:53 <b_jonas> also, that reminds me to Asimov's "The gods themselves" in which they also destroy other universes to make this universe survive
23:30:20 <oerjan> <olsner> muphryscope, misspelled as appropriate <-- what misspelling i think you are confused hth
23:31:06 <olsner> oerjan: I dunno, what's a muphryscope, what does it do and how do you spell it?
23:31:35 <oerjan> it's a scope for finding muphry, so he can be properly punished for slipping misspellings into my irc lines hth
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23:32:51 <oerjan> b_jonas: is that where they ensure humanity is the only intelligence in the galaxy?
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23:33:35 <b_jonas> oerjan: the one you're thinking is probably either "The End of Eternity" or "Foundation and Earth"
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23:33:53 <oerjan> the former rings a bell. and the second i think referred to that.
23:34:19 <oerjan> (of those, i've only actually _read_ foundation and earth, mind you.)
23:34:19 <b_jonas> oerjan: "The gods themselves" is the one with aliens and sex and alien sex
23:34:30 <b_jonas> (and as such, unusual from Asimov)
23:35:22 <oerjan> well i know he doesn't usually have aliens, that was like the point
23:36:33 <b_jonas> he rarely wrote about aliens, but there are a few times he did, the best one probably being "Blind alley", although that one isn't good because of the aliens, but because of a human character.
23:38:52 <b_jonas> and he rarely wrote about sex, but there's a few other cases like "The robots of Dawn".
23:39:12 <oerjan> there was an instance in either foundation and earth or the predecessor, though.
23:39:36 <oerjan> when the protagonist visited corporellon.
23:40:00 <b_jonas> are you talking about "The robots of Dawn"? that's the predecessor of "Robots and Empire"
23:40:04 <oerjan> hm i must be misspelling that.
23:40:33 <b_jonas> "The robots of Dawn" also has robot sex
23:40:47 <b_jonas> that one is easier because Asimov wrote a lot about robots
23:41:03 <b_jonas> but the robot sex isn't described much
23:41:08 <rdococ> has anyone tried to ever make a mechanical tree
23:41:09 <b_jonas> it's only part of the story, but never shown
23:41:21 <b_jonas> only a very little of the foreplay is described
23:42:10 <b_jonas> a mechanical tree? I would guess some Holywood film producers probably tried to order some, in order to play walking trees or treefolk (ents, treants) in live action movies
23:42:17 <oerjan> and it was foundation and earth.
23:42:31 <b_jonas> comporellon... that rings a bell, isn't it in one of the earlier Foundation novels?
23:42:40 <b_jonas> like, a planet or something
23:43:07 <rdococ> @b_jonas I mean mechanical trees that actually work
23:43:24 <oerjan> it's = baleyworld, the first non-spacer world
23:44:35 <oerjan> rdococ: i recall someone hypothesizing making something tree-like that could extract CO2 more efficiently than real trees
23:45:08 <MDude> I guess that might not be too hard, actually?
23:45:29 <zzo38> I am writing a document for TVMIDI, and then hopefully some TV set top boxes and a few other devices could be made to implement it.
23:45:47 <b_jonas> MDude: I think it would be hard, at least if you want it to extract CO2 more efficiently than algae too
23:45:47 <MDude> Since if you could somehow take genes from bacteria that are more fficient and get trees to use them, I think that'd do it.
23:45:57 <oerjan> i have read very little asimov beyond the foundation novels he wrote himself. naked sun is one other book.
23:46:20 <rdococ> a mechanical tree could convert carbon dioxide and heat into carbon and oxygen if they don't need glucose
23:46:24 <MDude> I thought the idea was to bring trees closer to algae level rather than surpassing them.
23:46:38 <MDude> Though i guess for that we could jsut se tup algae plants.
23:47:27 <rdococ> a solar powered machine that breaks carbon dioxide into carbon and oxygen, and looks like a tree. of course, it isn't an exact replication, but eh, who needs glucose?
23:48:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: anyway, golan trevize had sex with the (mayor?) on comporellon, although wikipedia doesn't mention that detail.
23:48:39 <pikhq> I'unno, I'd certainly like having glucose generation.
23:48:43 <pikhq> Glucose is useful.
23:48:48 <oerjan> it doesn't even mention her afaics
23:49:28 <b_jonas> rdococ: and water. but it's not that easy in the real world. if you just want something that breaks down the carbon dioxide to breathable air for a short term spaceship or underwater voyage, that is solved. but such a device isn't reusable, and making it uses up lots of resources, and indirectly uses up much more oxygen than it can ever create, so it doesn't work in large scale.
23:50:02 <rdococ> b_jonas: why would it need oxygen? it's a machine that would run on solar power
23:50:14 <rdococ> b_jonas: unless solar panels need it
23:50:15 <zzo38> TVMIDI does not support cable boxes with more than 16384 channels, although I have never seen any with more than 10000 channels (numbered 0 to 9999); if you have seen any then please tell me.
23:50:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: I don't know, I'm not really familiar with Foundation's edge and Foudation and Earth
23:50:53 <b_jonas> rdococ: because this is the real world, and there's a good reason even the single-celled algae are so complicated things
23:51:25 <b_jonas> “solar powered” sounds nice, but it's not a magic free lunch recipe
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