00:00:29 <earendel> of course! :p ..im learning befunge now.
00:00:30 <boily> coppro tichued me at a faraway place. next time I'll bring a new card game to return the favour :D
00:00:58 <boily> earendel: you should aubergine, and purple.
00:01:08 <quintopia> such as spaceteam or dresden files
00:02:08 <earendel> im planning to check those music related stuff.. the big5. but do not worry. soon i will teach you some tricks. :D laterz
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00:02:19 <coppro> quintopia: I'd be down for that
00:02:50 -!- ent0nces has joined.
00:02:59 <quintopia> i'm shit at mahjong. i'm not interested unless you're incredible at it and a good teacher besides :P
00:04:01 <boily> coppro is a sneaky player. you think you're playing safe, then *THWACK* he wins.
00:04:35 <coppro> quintopia: I'm decent at it and I got a lot of practice teaching this weekend
00:04:39 <coppro> I'm good at teaching the basics now
00:04:48 <shachaf> boily: weren't we going to prismatajam hth
00:04:49 <coppro> the more complicated stuff, not so well-practiced
00:04:56 <coppro> quintopia: what kinds of mahjong do you know?
00:05:47 <boily> hellochaf. prismatajam? this ought to ring a bell, but sorry I don't know what you're talking aboot...
00:05:58 <quintopia> coppro: i played like twice a decade ago. all i remember is standing up a bunch of tiles in front of me
00:05:58 <boily> hppavellon[1]. hm?
00:06:07 <coppro> quintopia: you're halfway there
00:06:08 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:06:17 <coppro> the other half is yelling "RON" and laying them all down
00:06:24 * hppavilion[1] wants to make an abstract machine- not just a bytecode interpreter, but a fully-featured machine- suitable for scientific applications. In an esoteric fashion.
00:06:32 <shachaf> boily: http://prismata.net/
00:06:45 <shachaf> boily: or https://play.prismata.net/?demo
00:06:53 <tswett> Oh hey, it's Prismata.
00:06:58 <tswett> I think I might have bought that or something.
00:07:34 <shachaf> whoa, the demo is really old
00:07:39 <quintopia> why don't we just make up a new game we can play in text only in irc. without bots.
00:08:19 <boily> coppro: any IRC mahjong clients?
00:08:25 <tswett> Um, let me see if I can log in.
00:08:33 <coppro> boily: not that I'm aware of
00:09:53 <quintopia> it's not very convincing if you don't leave the channel
00:10:19 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd. It's about 30 m (100 ft) across.
00:10:57 <tswett> Whelp... I have no idea how to access Prismata.
00:11:14 * hppavilion[1] wonders at what point metres intersect with yards, before realizing that it's obviously at x=0
00:11:32 <HackEgo> The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
00:12:07 <HackEgo> Relearned 'monqy': monqy is no longer extant
00:12:14 <tswett> Extant is also a word.
00:12:24 <tswett> It pretty much means "not extinct", I think.
00:12:35 <tswett> So I go to https://play.prismata.net/ and it says "Loading" and then I see a big black box.
00:12:54 <quintopia> monqy surely existed. and lives on only in concept. but is now hidden, unfindable.
00:13:40 <tswett> Now I see a small black box.
00:14:00 <boily> `learn monqy is no longer extant. He lives in concept, hidden, unfindable. You could ask itidus21 for details, if you find him.
00:14:03 <HackEgo> Relearned 'monqy': monqy is no longer extant. He lives in concept, hidden, unfindable. You could ask itidus21 for details, if you find him.
00:14:31 <shachaf> tswett: Well, I don't know.
00:14:50 <HackEgo> learn itidus21? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:14:51 <HackEgo> Doublethink is the ability of holding the right belief. (If you think that you disagree with this definition, think again.)
00:14:57 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
00:15:07 <hppavilion[1]> @tell itidus Just in case you're also a user: Whoops, wrong target
00:16:21 <quintopia> `learn itidus21 just made some instant coffee, and did it again an instant later, and then again and again. where is all this coffee coming from? it has buried itidus21! where is itidus21?
00:16:24 <HackEgo> Relearned 'itidus21': itidus21 just made some instant coffee, and did it again an instant later, and then again and again. where is all this coffee coming from? it has buried itidus21! where is itidus21?
00:17:16 <HackEgo> wisdom/itidus21//itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
00:17:35 <quintopia> boily: one month until work ends at 7pm. and DST is now officially out of early access.
00:18:12 <tswett> HackEgo: FASTER PLEASE
00:18:14 <HackEgo> zombiecheney/ZombieCheney lives under a bridge.
00:18:19 <coppro> boily: grav's server should support a real aPI though so at that point no reason you couldn't write a gravjong <-> irc relay
00:18:40 <coppro> is there a "COMBINING TILE ROTATED LEFT"?
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00:18:44 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/of holding/to hold/' wisdom/doublethink
00:19:01 <quintopia> boily: can you python as well as you ruby?
00:20:32 <boily> coppro: I like the name "gravjong".
00:20:56 <quintopia> is this something that fell out of the gravatarpits?
00:21:01 <boily> coppro: I don't think there is anything more than a single mahjong emoji in Unicode, but I may be wrong hth
00:21:06 <shachaf> oerjan: i've never heard of a "bag to hold" hth
00:21:11 <boily> quintopia: I can pythong better than I can ruby hth
00:21:18 <HackEgo> Doublethink is the ability to hold the right belief. (If you think that you disagree with this definition, think again.)
00:21:47 <quintopia> boily: wanna help me develop the hardest-to-implement esolang i've ever designed?
00:22:02 * oerjan puts shachaf in a bag, then swats it -----###
00:22:25 <coppro> boily: you are wrong tdnh
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00:23:35 <HackEgo> treefolk/Treefolk are genericized treants for intellectual property reasons.
00:23:36 <boily> quintopia: watch me Enterprise Programming you an interpreter, with a half-a-lisp spec somewhere in it :D
00:23:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: foolishness: not found
00:23:48 <coppro> 🀀🀁🀂🀃🀄🀅🀆🀇🀈🀉🀊🀋🀌🀍🀎🀏🀐🀑🀒🀓🀔🀕🀖🀗🀘🀙🀚🀛🀜🀝🀞🀟🀠🀡🀢🀣🀤🀥🀦🀧🀨🀩🀪🀫
00:23:58 <coppro> need a terminal font with mahjong tiles :(
00:23:59 <tswett> `unidecode 🀀🀁🀂🀃🀄🀅🀆🀇🀈🀉🀊🀋🀌🀍🀎🀏🀐🀑🀒🀓🀔🀕🀖🀗🀘🀙🀚🀛🀜🀝🀞🀟🀠🀡🀢🀣🀤🀥🀦🀧🀨🀩🀪🀫
00:24:01 <HackEgo> [U+1F000 MAHJONG TILE EAST WIND] [U+1F001 MAHJONG TILE SOUTH WIND] [U+1F002 MAHJONG TILE WEST WIND] [U+1F003 MAHJONG TILE NORTH WIND] [U+1F004 MAHJONG TILE RED DRAGON] [U+1F005 MAHJONG TILE GREEN DRAGON] [U+1F006 MAHJONG TILE WHITE DRAGON] [U+1F007 MAHJONG TILE ONE OF CHARACTERS] [U+1F008 MAHJONG TILE TWO OF CHARACTERS] [U+1F009 MAHJONG TILE THR
00:24:13 <oerjan> shachaf: are you being attacked by a wolf pack tdnh
00:24:38 <boily> coppro: I don't know which font I have here that can has mahjong tiles... let me send you a screenshot.
00:24:45 <HackEgo> twnh is dubious hambiguitous help that will or will not be help. It is provided by a toe with no hair.
00:25:07 <quintopia> boily: it probably does call for half-a-lisp, but it also calls for a decent implementation of arithmetic coding and a drag and drop gui interface. does this sound enterprisey enough for you?
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00:25:43 <oerjan> yay my font has all the mahjong tiles
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00:26:24 <boily> coppro: http://imgur.com/HKQich0
00:27:00 <coppro> I think I'm using droid sans mono
00:27:16 <coppro> and I'm using urxvt, which is not known for its font handling, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's failing to fall back
00:27:45 <quintopia> it didn't show up in konsole either
00:27:51 <tswett> (those wolves do not help)
00:28:04 <coppro> quintopia: konsole handles astral characters really poorly, not surprised
00:28:06 <boily> "Liberation Mono for Powerline regular 11". I don't know which fallback it is.
00:28:24 <coppro> quintopia: konsole does better than urxvt, anyway
00:28:39 <boily> gnome-terminal isn't so bad at font handling...
00:28:45 <coppro> but KDE applications (or possibly all of Qt) basically use UCS-2 and sometimes surrogates work by accident
00:29:07 <coppro> that was the pain point that made me switch away from konwole
00:29:24 <coppro> I might have to look at gnome-terminal
00:30:00 <\oren\> Are the mahjong tiles halfwidth or fullwidth?
00:31:16 <\oren\> looks to be halfwidth. that's gonna be hard to squeez
00:32:25 <hppavilion[1]> Stupid thing #4923: Superdynamic Linking (AKA Runtime Linking)
00:34:27 <\oren\> Hmm, it'll work better if I don't draw the tile borders
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00:39:05 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. I just remembered you had some graphs on your website. are you still updating them?
00:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> hellambda-01123581321345589144233377610987159725844181676510946177112865746368
00:41:22 <lambda-11235> boily: Hi. Also, note that weechat doesn't notify me when my nick is part of a larger word, in case you ever want to grab my attention.
00:41:48 <boily> hppavilion[1]: word.
00:41:52 <hppavilion[1]> lambda-11235: Also, you can configure most clients for other words, too
00:43:39 <tswett> Y'know, I'm probably worse at coming up with Japanese names than anime writers are at coming up with English names.
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00:44:06 <tswett> Like, to me, Kotayama Hareshu sounds like a perfectly plausible Japanese name.
00:44:14 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> INFINITE matrioshka language? <<hppavilion[1]> Or self-referential matrioshka language? <-- aka Feather hth
00:44:29 <tswett> But a Japanese person might think it sounds ridiculous.
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00:44:32 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: uh, what do you mean?
00:45:03 <boily> (do Japanese name ever mix up kanji and kana?)
00:45:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Doesn't everybody have that superpower where you recognize names in all languages perfectly? That isn't just me, right?
00:45:27 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Then why are you coming up with japanese names?
00:45:35 <tswett> It's just a fact that occurred to me.
00:46:03 <tswett> In Death Note, there was someone who was supposed to be named Larry, but his name onscreen was misspelled as Rally.
00:46:38 <tswett> There was also someone named Raye Penber. Like, if they'd just spelled the last name as "Pember", that would have been pretty plausible.
00:48:04 <\oren\> Penber looks more englishy than pember to me
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00:48:29 <tswett> Does English have any non-compound words at all with "nb" in them?
00:49:45 <tswett> I think "bonbon" is as close as English gets to that.
00:49:52 <tswett> Ignoring names such as Dunbar and Canberra.
00:50:07 <oerjan> technically those may all be compounds
00:50:45 <quintopia> i think the problem is not "nb" but rather "enb"
00:50:53 <\oren\> tswett: right, nb occurs in names
00:51:23 <quintopia> you want the syllable to end on the b with "enb" whereas with "unb" and "anb" it naturally ends on the n
00:52:34 <oerjan> canberra's etymology seems pretty disputed.
00:52:52 <tswett> Yep. All of the "enb" names in my /usr/share/dict/words are suffixed with "burg", "baker", "berg", "brau", "bach", "backer", "berry", or "borg".
00:53:56 <quintopia> i wonder when this starbucks closes
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01:07:47 <oerjan> . o O ( The Day Starbuck Never Closed - direct to DVD )
01:08:45 <boily> http://www.theonion.com/article/new-starbucks-opens-in-rest-room-of-existing-starb-560
01:09:20 <oerjan> a starbucks is like an onion, it contains layers
01:11:24 <boily> `addquote <oerjan> a starbucks is like an onion, it contains layers
01:11:37 <HackEgo> 1277) <oerjan> a starbucks is like an onion, it contains layers
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01:12:46 <oerjan> i knew i should have checked that quote properly in advance.
01:17:26 <lambda-11235> Subway is like cheeto powder, they get everywhere.
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01:20:45 <boily> lambda-11235: the sandwich, or the underground thingie?
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01:22:51 <lambda-11235> In one town I went to I could swear there was one on every street.
01:23:42 <\oren\> Ok, I suck at making these flower tiles look different
01:24:50 <boily> not surprising. they're the most numerousest chain in the whole world.
01:31:26 <\oren\> looking up some pictures helped
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01:44:24 <quintopia> if subway is like cheeto powder, then dunkin donuts is maybe like glitter, and starbucks is like powdered sugar
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01:49:21 * boily has sudden cravings for Tim's donuts...
01:52:53 <quintopia> i crave donuts all the time, but only krispy kreme doughnuts
01:53:40 <quintopia> i'm only alive today based on my ability to ignore cravings
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02:09:51 <fowl> Fresh krispy kremes omg they should be illegal
02:10:01 <fowl> A controlled substance
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02:26:57 <\oren\> 🀀🀁🀂🀃🀄🀅🀆🀇🀈🀉🀊🀋🀌🀍🀎🀏🀐🀑🀒🀓🀔🀕🀖🀗🀘🀙🀚🀛
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02:30:59 <\oren\> Good news, Everyone! Neoletters now supprot Mahjong tiles!
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03:00:08 <\oren\> hppavilion[2]: 倦倭偲寛哨填威婆寛尉尋尾尿屈履峡峰崇崎崖
03:00:09 <\oren\> 崩嵐巧帆帝帽幅幣幻幽幾床庶庸廃廉廊廷弄弊弐弥弦
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03:00:23 <\oren\> 🀀🀁🀂🀃🀄🀅🀆🀇🀈🀉🀊🀋🀌🀍🀎🀏🀐🀑🀒🀓🀔🀕🀖🀗🀘🀙🀚🀛🀜🀝🀞🀟🀠🀡🀢🀣🀤🀥🀦🀧🀨🀩🀪🀫
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03:03:53 <\oren\> ent0nces: why is your peer resetting your connection so much?
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03:05:35 <\oren\> Hey, fungot, why do peers reset connecitons?
03:05:36 <fungot> \oren\: and forcer is sarahbot who. ummmm....... what makes scheme suck more than ruby or python maybe, which i also think it's weird. it is
03:06:56 <\oren\> fungot: who's sarahbot?
03:06:56 <fungot> \oren\: should i? what kind of hint would you like
03:07:39 <\oren\> fungot: this is some sort of secret?
03:07:39 <fungot> \oren\: sicp has a similar philosophy
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03:14:12 <oerjan> \oren\: i think sarahbot may have been a bot in #scheme
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03:17:15 <\oren\> oh, similar to lambdabot of haskell
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03:20:15 <hppavilion[2]> Horrible Video Game Mashup #911660: Kerbal Plague Program
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03:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> Horrible Video Game Mashup #911660: Kerbal Plague Program
03:22:38 <hppavilion[1]> It's like KSP, but instead you're manufacturing biological weapons
03:24:43 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: a plague happened in Scott Manley's Interstellar Quest episode NaN
03:25:13 <\oren\> all his resources became NaN
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04:03:04 <hppavilion[2]> What is the stupidest numeral system you can think of
04:03:22 <hppavilion[2]> Provided that the algorithm to decode an arbitrary integer into this system must reside in finite space
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04:28:21 <FreeFull> http://paulhankin.github.io/Fibonacci/
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04:48:47 <hppavilion[2]> I feel like I've lived a fuller life now that I know that.
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05:25:25 <oerjan> girl genius: hah i guessed right!
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06:01:47 <lambda-11235> That moment when you relize you made a spelling mistake in an old git commit.
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06:05:21 <mad> 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5... = -1/12
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06:16:19 <zzo38> Yes that is one infinite sum
06:16:38 <zzo38> There are others, many of which I have written down the proof of, but not that one
06:20:34 <zzo38> For example 1 + 2 + 4 + 8 + 16 + 32 + 64 + ... = -1 and 1 + 4 + 16 + 64 + 256 + ... = -1/3 and 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + ... = 1/2 and 1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/32 + ... = 2
06:21:15 <mad> you can get it from 1 -1 +1 -1 +1 = 1/2
06:21:42 <mad> s = 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6...
06:22:03 <mad> 4s = 4 + 8 + 12....
06:22:25 <mad> -3s= 1 - 2 + 3 - 4 + 5 - 6....
06:22:32 <mad> (doing the subtraction)
06:23:46 <mad> 1 - 2 + 3 - 4 + 5 - 6... = (1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1...) * (1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - 1...)
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06:25:56 <mad> proof: you can write (1-1+1-1+1...) * (1-1+1-1+1...) as the 1st term * 1st term + (2nd term * 1st term + 1st term * 2nd term) + (3rd term * 1st term + 2nd term * 2nd term + 1st term * 3rd term + etc
06:26:44 <mad> which gives you (1) + (-1-1) + (1+1+1) + (-1-1-1-1) + (1+1+1+1+1)....
06:26:44 <zzo38> So, it is more complicated than the others I have mentioned, but can still be worked
06:27:03 <mad> it's basically a more evolved form of 1-1+1-1+1-1...
06:27:18 <zzo38> How do you prove that though?
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06:32:39 <zzo38> The ones I have done are all much easier to prove (the last one I mentioned is convergent rather than divergent, but that seems irrelevant to me).
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06:39:34 <zzo38> I have first read about "1 + 4 + 16 + 64 + 256 + ... = -1/3" in a book actually, where they had a simple equation to solve a infinite series "x^0 + x^2 + x^4 + x^6 + x^8 + ..." which is supposed to be used for numbers less than 1 but if you put x=2 it comes out -1/3 which seems "nonsense". However I used a different method to figure out the answer of 1 + 4 + 16 + ... and also got -1/3, so clearly it must be correct.
06:40:51 <zzo38> (I have not checked if this method can derive the equation used.)
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06:43:51 <mad> there's a video on youtube about this
06:43:51 <mad> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcKRGpMiVTw
06:44:28 <zzo38> I don't watch video on YouTube; I watch text.
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07:08:55 <hppavilion[2]> For some reason, generalized mandelbrot sets make me uncomfortable
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07:12:43 <mad> is a turing complete fractal possible
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07:14:07 <zzo38> mad: I don't know.
07:14:17 <zzo38> How would such thing be working?
07:14:28 <myname> how is "2nd term * 1st term * 1st term * 2nd term" ever anything but 1?
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07:16:14 <mad> myname: 2nd term is -1
07:16:41 <mad> (-1*1) + (1*-1) = -1 + -1
07:17:31 <hppavilion[2]> mad: Do you mean a class of fractal rather than just one fractal?
07:17:36 <mad> zzo38 : a fractal where depending on where you evaluate it, it either coverges, or doesn't
07:17:52 <mad> corresponding to halting and non-halting in a turing machine
07:18:34 <mad> halt and non-halt are the only outputs needed for a turing complete system
07:19:08 <mad> you can get a binary output by racing two inputs
07:19:53 <mad> like, you have a version asking "is the answer X" and one asking "is the answer Y", first one to terminate means the answer is that
07:20:43 <mad> also you can use the infinite decimals of your evaluation as an infinite tape
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07:27:45 <myname> mad: 2nd * 1st * 1st * 2nd = 2nd^2 * 1st^2 = 1 * 1 = 1
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09:01:48 <mroman> wasn't there some esolang that required you to define syntax first?
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12:53:45 <fungot> b_jonas: that's a brand of rye bread. :) in fact, some said " gn" after our early fnord had said " yes you are all wrong
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13:55:14 <fizzie> I don't think rats are a brand of rye bread.
13:55:31 <fizzie> Or if they are (it is?), it doesn't sound like the best name, from a brand marketing perspective.
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14:17:55 <zgrep> fizzie: Depends on who you're assuming they're marketing to.
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14:34:49 <earendel> --> 14..toString(13) //base 13 for instance.. but can u mathporn-cunts elaborate if it's really worse than any other base that would seem sane to me? i mean.. don't come up with the number of factors.
14:36:41 <FireFly> --> "We have JS eval now?"
14:36:42 <deepblu> FireFly: We have JS eval now?
14:36:55 <FireFly> earendel: is it properly sandboxed?
14:38:53 <earendel> firefly: im still working on it. just felt safe enough to let it in here.. :) .. have some concept and work on a paper to introduce it later properly.. so much for now: no it's not gonna be just js
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14:39:32 <FireFly> Well, is it safe enough that I could toy with it and see if I find any way to break out of it? :p
14:40:49 <earendel> it's safe enough so you can try to do your worst.. i just ask to let me know about at some point so i can improve it..after you conquered my local network and downloaded all my illegal hd porn
14:41:16 <earendel> but it could be a little spammy.. maybe you wait. itll be more fun later:D
14:41:56 <earendel> tell me what you think about base 13.
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14:43:47 <FireFly> What I think about base 13? Well, the quote by Douglas Adams comes to mind
14:43:58 <FireFly> “Some readers who were trying to find a deeper meaning in the passage soon noticed that 610 × 910 is actually 4213 (as 4 × 13 + 2 = 54, i.e. 54 in decimal is equal to 42 expressed in base 13). When confronted with this, the author claimed that it was a mere coincidence, famously stating that "I may be a sorry case, but I don't write jokes in base 13."”
14:44:31 <FireFly> "6₁₀ × 9₁₀ is actually 42₁₃"
14:48:43 <myname> which makes it better imo
14:49:19 <FireFly> Not really sure why they used _10 there
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17:37:06 <\oren\> or 254 if you want to use 0xff as a decimal point
17:43:27 <ais523> use that as the decimal point
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18:16:14 <myname> why not use base 65536?
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18:34:55 <earendel> so, is the way we're used to base10 only a matter of phaenotype? just an arbitrary condition and excercise? or is there some affiinity between us and 10 (fingers?) that makes this preference? did other ethnic groups develop another base?
18:35:18 <earendel> a quarter pounder with cheese?!? :o
18:36:26 <int-e> My preferred binary base for calculations on paper was base 8.
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18:37:04 <int-e> (past tense because I no longer do such computations manually)
18:38:12 <int-e> but there's something to be said for a base where 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 and 1/6 have finite expansions, as well as 1/8, 1/9, 1/10...
18:38:21 <int-e> ...the babylonians were clever.
18:40:42 <earendel> so.. our digits are arabic right? once upon the time
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18:43:32 <earendel> so what kiind of system is the roman..it's base 10 just with a symbol system that's more like ... a currency..right?
18:44:00 <b_jonas> "what kiind of system is the roman" => a stupid one
18:44:42 <b_jonas> it's more stupid than the system where greek or hebrew letters used to mark nonzero digits in the ones, tens, and thousands positions.
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18:47:50 <int-e> "[...] our modern decimal place value system was invented by Hindu mathematicians in India, probably by the sixth century and perhaps even earlier. The modern numerals 1, 2, 3, ..., are sometimes called "Arabic" numerals in the West because they were introduced to Europeans by Arab merchants." ... so not really arabic.
18:48:36 <earendel> i think just the digits are arabic
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18:48:56 <int-e> (quote from http://www.unc.edu/~rowlett/units/roman.html via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals)
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18:53:29 <HackEgo> monkey eats banana? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:55:23 <earendel> oh the maya used base20 .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_numerals
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19:25:28 <zzo38> Such numeral can be call "Hindu-Arabic"
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20:57:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46838&oldid=43458 * IAM * (+127)
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21:04:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xfix * New user account
21:09:48 <hppavilion[2]> I want to design a processor architecture that could run a 2ducks-like language
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21:10:28 <izabera> how much experience do you have in processor architecture design?
21:10:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46839&oldid=33842 * IAM * (+312) /* Getting Stuck */ new section
21:11:06 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: Nothing formal and not a lot informal, but I would be working somewhat in the abstract
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21:32:14 <hppavilion[2]> Morality Quote of the Day that Depends on Obscure Knowledge: "Racism is context-free"
21:32:34 <b_jonas> I was thinking about the rust language by the way, and there's a funny thing I'd like to point out.
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21:34:37 <b_jonas> Do you know how the definitions for C specifically say that the arguments of a function call or an operator can be evaluated in any order, it's an implementation freedom, with some exceptions? And how the definition of scheme says the same, and how common lisp gives a much tighter restriction (function arguments are evaluated front to back order, but the called function itself can be evaluated before or after or between them as the impl chooses),
21:35:10 <b_jonas> and how perl doesn't documented this so people had debates about what perl actually promises about the order of evaluation of most operators?
21:35:47 <b_jonas> So there are good arguments for fixing the order, and good arguments for not fixing the order, but in the end it's certainly a judgement call by whoever defines the language, right?>
21:36:37 <b_jonas> The funny thing is, in rust, they don't have a choice, they must fix the evaluation order.
21:37:30 <b_jonas> It's because the evaluation order can change whether the program is valid at compile time, because the evaluation order determines which values count as compile-time initialized. Unlike C++, in rust, a variable can be in scope yet compile time uninitialized.
21:38:48 <b_jonas> Now of course whoever defines it still has the freedom to pick an evaluation order (and it's not obvious which order is best for the assignment operator and for function calls), but they have to choose one and stick to it.
21:39:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GPRX 3000]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46840 * Xfix * (+2201) Initial version of GPRX 3000 description
21:39:29 <pikhq> Sure. Changing semantics in a subtle yet fundamental way like that is bad news.
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21:40:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46841&oldid=46801 * Xfix * (+16) Add GPRX 3000
21:42:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GPRX 3000]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46842&oldid=46840 * Xfix * (+25) Add who invented a language
21:42:27 <b_jonas> Of course, there will be few programs where this actually matters, but it's a fun theoretical point.
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21:55:58 <xfix> I do wonder how usable for computing GPRX 3000 is, but it's probably not (but at the same time, I don't have a proof it's not)...
21:58:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GPRX 3000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46843&oldid=46842 * Xfix * (+118) Extra clarifications for GPRX 3000 language
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22:14:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Maze]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46844&oldid=46839 * IAM * (+84) /* Getting Stuck */
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22:21:08 <Kaynato> A friend has an interesting idea: http://i.imgur.com/P0pMbmu.png
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22:21:38 <ais523> can you describe it? I'm very reluctant to follow undescribed links
22:21:47 <ais523> especially if someone joins the channel just to post them
22:21:56 <ais523> (I mean, I recognise imgur, but the URL doesn't say a lot about the image)
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22:25:05 <fizzie> I'm less reluctant, and can tell that it's a screenshot of a text file open in an editor.
22:25:35 <ais523> why not just use a pastebin? unless it uses some sort of nonstandard syntax highlighting?
22:25:41 <ais523> or, going the other way, use a wooden table?
22:25:44 <xfix> Is it like "require enterprise style coding"?
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22:26:02 <fizzie> It could be nonstandard syntax highlighting.
22:27:06 <fizzie> Although a bar at the bottom says "Java".
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23:13:04 <int-e> now I want to fast forward 3 weeks...
23:15:01 -!- oerjan has set topic: Recommended by pi out of 5 doctors! | The international hub of esoteric programming | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | Note: people with cloaks will be treated as if they're from Chemnitz (not Karl-Marx-Stadt).
23:16:08 <oerjan> `` date 'today+23 days'
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23:16:26 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `today+23 days'
23:16:39 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `23 days'
23:16:51 <int-e> > chr (ord 'd' + 23)
23:16:52 <ais523> is this even GNU's date parser? :-D
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23:17:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Smallfuck]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46845&oldid=40009 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* External resources */
23:17:55 <oerjan> `` date 'today+23days'
23:17:56 <HackEgo> date: invalid date `today+23days'
23:19:33 <b_jonas> `perl -e use Date::Manip::Date 6.30; $d = Date::Manip::Date->new("today"); $i = $d->new_delta("+23 days"); print $d->calc($i)->printf("%O\n");
23:19:35 <HackEgo> Can't locate Date/Manip/Date.pm in @INC (@INC contains: /etc/perl /usr/local/lib/perl/5.14.2 /usr/local/share/perl/5.14.2 /usr/lib/perl5 /usr/share/perl5 /usr/lib/perl/5.14 /usr/share/perl/5.14 /usr/local/lib/site_perl .) at -e line 1. \ BEGIN failed--compilation aborted at -e line 1.
23:19:48 <b_jonas> well, HackEgo doesn't run that, but that's what I'd do
23:20:13 <b_jonas> because the gnu date parser is stupid
23:20:28 <int-e> `` date -d 'today+23days'
23:20:30 <HackEgo> Wed May 18 22:20:27 UTC 2016
23:20:33 <oerjan> i'm not sure it counts if it's harder to remember the syntax than to calculate in your head
23:20:36 <b_jonas> it says 2016-05-19T00:00:00 on my machine (note that this is a timezone dependent today)
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23:21:03 <b_jonas> oerjan: what? I remember syntax without looking it up, except for the 6.30 version number
23:21:28 <boily> guys, is it bad if my first reflex to compute the date is to use Java?
23:21:32 <b_jonas> (and that one I can omit on my home machine where I know I have a new enough version)
23:21:47 <int-e> boily: very, very bad.
23:22:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: ironically, the syntax I can't remember is actually
23:22:23 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec date --rfc-3=n "$@"
23:22:41 <b_jonas> --rfc-3 is actually an abbreviation for a longer rfc number, but I don't know that number
23:22:46 <int-e> datei? any germans involved in that file name?
23:22:51 <int-e> `culprits bin/datei
23:22:54 <b_jonas> and you need the 3 because there's another long option starting with --rfc-
23:23:49 <b_jonas> int-e: nah, it's just that I use an i suffix in a lot of aliases I use that give saner options than the default when I don't just want to override the command with an alias of the same name
23:24:06 <b_jonas> int-e: I have gapi, ffplayi, ffprobei, and more I think
23:24:37 <shachaf> speaking of which what does int-e stand for
23:24:40 <b_jonas> no, I think it originally stood for interactive
23:24:54 <int-e> In fact I stand for myself.
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23:26:46 <oerjan> now we just need to know what happens on 18/19 May
23:27:12 <int-e> > chr (ord 'd' + 23)
23:28:53 <oerjan> i'm afraid i cannot guarantee that kind of regularity, hth
23:29:18 <HackEgo> int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen.
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23:30:05 <b_jonas> oerjan: if you can't remember the syntax, here's one you can probably remember more easily. Go to http://www.timeanddate.com/ , follow the link “What Date is it in X Days?” to http://www.timeanddate.com/date/dateadd.html , click on the today link (needs javascript), enter 23 to the "Days" field, submit the button "Calculate new date".
23:30:23 <oerjan> `learn_append int-e Hen står för sig själv.
23:30:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'int-e': int-e är inte svensk. Hen kommer att spränga solen. Hen står för sig själv.
23:31:05 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://www.timeanddate.com/ is very useful, it's a site I'm really impressed with. They actually read my mails and fixed some of what I asked.
23:31:18 <int-e> I need to get on that Sun project.
23:31:31 <b_jonas> Reacting well to reports is something that really increases my confidence in software stuff.
23:32:16 <oerjan> b_jonas: that's not very useful for channel musings hth
23:32:49 <HackEgo> b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek.
23:32:57 <int-e> what about confidential trust issues
23:33:12 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's hard to make timeanddate.com give the result in the channel hth
23:34:09 <b_jonas> we could probably put something together with HackEgo's special http download command
23:34:13 <b_jonas> but it wouldn't look too good
23:34:38 <b_jonas> yes, if you want it in the channel then you have to stick to Date::Manip, unless it's one of those impossible tasks that Date::Manip can't do, like
23:35:07 <oerjan> `wget https://google.com
23:35:09 <HackEgo> --2016-04-25 22:35:05-- https://google.com/ \ Resolving google.com (google.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `google.com'
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23:35:30 <oerjan> `wget https://www.google.com
23:35:31 <HackEgo> --2016-04-25 22:35:27-- https://www.google.com/ \ Resolving www.google.com (www.google.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `www.google.com'
23:35:52 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:36:04 <b_jonas> FOLLOWING THE FUCKING GOVERNMENT'S RANDOM CHANGES OF WORKDAYS THAT THEY ANNOUCNE IN LIKE NOVEMBER OF THE PREVIOUS YEAR AND THEN DARE TO CHANGE IT IN DECEMBER SO EVERYONE IS CONFUSED ABOUT WHEN THEY HAVE TO WORK AND WHEN THEY DON'T AND NOBODY CAN PLAN AHEAD
23:36:15 <b_jonas> plus all the timezone changes around the world too
23:36:22 <oerjan> b_jonas: first we have get Gregor to (1) come here (2) fix the web proxy (3) add it to the whitelist.
23:36:37 <oerjan> currently stuck on step 1.
23:36:53 <int-e> `fetch https://www.google.com/
23:37:03 <HackEgo> 2016-04-25 22:36:57 URL:https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=C5weV-zxE4Si8we0rYGABg [10978] -> "index.html" [1]
23:37:15 <HackEgo> <!doctype html><html itemscope="" itemtype="http://schema.org/WebPage" lang="en-CA"><head><meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type"><meta content="/images/branding/googleg/1x/googleg_standard_color_128dp.png" itemprop="image"><title>Google</title><script>(function(){window.google={kEI:'DJweV4LqF8K0sQGSxJnwBw',kEXPI:'1350
23:37:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: perlbot has a command that can fetch.. the status line of a HEAD request? or something like that
23:37:48 <b_jonas> special command, not invokable from a script I think
23:37:56 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: fetch: not found
23:38:25 <oerjan> int-e: no i mean `wget, `fetch is useless for building a command around
23:38:57 <oerjan> i just wanted to check if `wget was working at all these days
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23:39:59 <int-e> `curl http://localhost/
23:40:05 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
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23:40:41 <oerjan> b_jonas: they should make an international treaty that forbids changing timezone systems less than say, 5 years in advance.
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23:41:53 <b_jonas> although it would be hard to define this stuff properly
23:42:07 <hppavilion[2]> It is undecidable whether they generate equivalent languages
23:42:14 <hppavilion[2]> But it's still possible for some pairs of grammars
23:43:16 <oerjan> hm is that undecidable for context-free too
23:43:18 <hppavilion[2]> What are the useful tools for proving Lang (fst x) = Lang (snd x) for all xes in some subset of Grammar*Grammar?
23:43:33 <oerjan> (it's decidable for regular)
23:43:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: um it's easier for regular
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23:43:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: I mean, when they change timezones and workdays because there's a fucking war and you were living in one country but suddenly that country no longer exists and you're living in a totally different country or nobody is really sure what countries are, and people are shooting each other for supposedly their religion, then I can understand if timezones and workdays change and it's the least of the problem.
23:44:12 <int-e> you remember that wrong
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23:44:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: nope. you can intersect, union and complement computably
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23:44:30 <b_jonas> oerjan: but when there's no such causes, THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD JUST LET BUSINESSES BE ABLE TO PLAN AHEAD MORE THAN A FEW MONTHS
23:44:31 <oerjan> and test for emptiness.
23:44:32 <int-e> and check for emptyness
23:45:00 <b_jonas> and ordinary people too, but it's more pain for businesses
23:45:10 <lambdabot> shachaf says: I remember when I joined #haskell and everyone would @quote stereo.
23:45:19 -!- Melvar` has changed nick to Melvar.
23:45:19 <lambdabot> monochrom says: Welcome to #haskell, where your questions are answered in contrapuntal fugues.
23:45:20 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
23:45:23 <lambdabot> xplat says: Welcome to #haskell-blah, where your bot commands are executed in triumphant stereo!
23:45:46 <int-e> the question is, is Cale's original one still there...
23:46:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: you just calculate L1 /\ L2^c \/ L1^c /\ L2 and check if it's empty
23:46:56 <lambdabot> mmorrow says: and didn't realize what it really said until after i @remembered it
23:47:03 <int-e> @quote @remember stereo
23:47:16 <int-e> "Welcome to #haskell, where @remember's are in majestic stereo!"
23:47:24 <int-e> that's the closest to the original (which is gone)
23:47:26 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ allquotes | if [ "$1" ]; then \ if expr "$1" + 0 >/dev/null 2>&1; then \ sed "$1q;d" \ else \ grep -P -i -- "$1" \ fi \ else shuf -n 1; fi
23:47:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i think it's undecidable for context-free, iirc it's undecidable even whether a CF language is Alphabet^*
23:47:56 <lambdabot> quanticle says: Are you trying to fit a genderless elder being into your binary gender stereotypes, you cishet shitlord?
23:48:12 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: It's undecidable for context free according to <b_jonas> and ordinary people too, but it's more pain for businesses
23:48:13 <oerjan> (although it's decidable whether it's empty.)
23:48:18 <hppavilion[2]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_undecidable_problems
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23:48:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: hehe, that sounded fungotty
23:49:06 <b_jonas> I mean, it unexpectedly makes sense in a way that some of fungot's lines do
23:49:23 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: I AM DEFINITELY NOT FUNGOT IN DISGUISE ATTEMPTING TO TAKE OVER THE FNORD
23:50:06 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: It's also undecidable, given two CFGs, whether their intersection is empty
23:50:29 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: drop the CAPS and distinguishing you from fungot will become impossible!
23:50:30 <b_jonas> I mean (explaining this ruins the joke) the problem is that it's undecidable which days are workdays
23:51:05 <hppavilion[2]> int-e: Who says fungot can't caps? Once fungot is fully saptient fne may be able to.
23:51:11 <HackEgo> zerg/We'll try to think of an entry here, but we don't want to rush it.
23:51:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: boring: not found
23:51:26 <lambdabot> quanticle says: Are you trying to fit a genderless elder being into your binary gender stereotypes, you cishet shitlord?
23:51:29 <HackEgo> Boring means of little interest.
23:51:57 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: well, it isn't, and it's usually all lower case, and stops in the middle of sentences.
23:52:12 <b_jonas> int-e: and has spaces after opening quotation marks
23:52:25 <HackEgo> aglist/aglist is update notification for the Abstruse Goose webcomic. http://abstrusegoose.com/
23:52:29 <oerjan> <lambdabot> instead says: of @remember <-- cute
23:52:35 <b_jonas> yeah I know. I made that one.
23:53:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 60-ball: not found
23:53:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: *-ball: not found
23:53:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access *-ball: No such file or directory
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23:53:21 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*-ball: No such file or directory
23:53:40 <int-e> `` echo bin/*-ball
23:53:52 <int-e> just ` has no glob expansion
23:54:19 <HackEgo> bin/8-ball bin/culprits-c bin/culprits-ng bin/echo-p bin/from-8bit bin/hello-world-in-any-language bin/karma- bin/luarocks-admin bin/morse-decode bin/perl-e bin/raw-url bin/rm-p bin/you-can-only-run-this-once
23:54:21 <HackEgo> cat: bin/```: No such file or directory
23:54:27 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ export LANG=C; exec bash -O extglob -c "$@" | rnooodl
23:54:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ TIMEFORMAT="real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS" \ shopt -s extglob globstar \ eval -- "$1" | rnooodl
23:54:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/8-cube: No such file or directory
23:54:39 <HackEgo> bin/1492 bin/2014 bin/2015 bin/2016 bin/2017 bin/5quote bin/8-ball bin/8ball
23:55:21 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ shuf -n 1 share/8ballreplies
23:55:24 <int-e> ``` is just a variant of ``
23:56:20 <int-e> `wc share/8ballreplies
23:56:22 <HackEgo> 20 68 359 share/8ballreplies
23:56:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: maybe you should look up what an 8-ball is on the internet
23:57:06 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/share/8ballreplies
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23:57:41 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:57:58 <int-e> `url wisdom/wisdom
23:57:59 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/wisdom
23:58:09 <int-e> why did I do that manually...
23:58:58 <hppavilion[2]> So again, given two CSGs, what tools are good for deciding the big (usually undecidable) problems about subsets of them?