00:02:03 <int-e> Who works with CSGs?
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00:03:49 <int-e> I've dealt with Turing Machines. I have not used CSGs for anything meaningful that I remember.
00:04:00 <oerjan> i'd imagine they mostly just work with SPACE(O(n)) if they care about the class
00:04:43 <int-e> it's such an unwieldy model of computation
00:05:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: turing machines recognize everything
00:06:07 <int-e> Oh I've done some string rewriting which actually comes quite close.
00:06:27 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Really? I would think that you would need a TM For the CSGs
00:06:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i said TM
00:06:51 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: OK, then what system generates the ECTs (Every Computable Things)
00:07:04 <oerjan> TMs without restriction
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00:07:33 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: What thing analogous to BNF is used for the Unrestricted Grammars?
00:07:34 <oerjan> s/linearly bounded/linearly bounded memory/
00:08:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: unrestricted grammars _are_ analogous to BNF.
00:08:12 <int-e> (but string rewriting will take you directly to Chomsky type 0)
00:08:49 <int-e> (string rewriting = semi-Thue systems)
00:08:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: ...are you incapable of understanding the word "analogous"?
00:09:16 * oerjan getting annoyed, sorry
00:09:59 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: I thought that a and c are analogous (with some implicit connection b and d) if a:b::c:d
00:10:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: i think unrestricted grammars have the same problem as int-e noted for CFG: no one _really_ uses them because they don't have nice properties for actual parsing
00:10:45 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: But if they the only thing at your disposal is grammars, it's better to have a URG than a CFG
00:11:07 <oerjan> well if you want to use it to describe computations, sure
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00:11:56 <oerjan> it depends what you mean by "better". there is the usual duality where better at being powerful means worse at being analyzable
00:12:33 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Remember Thoof? I'm basically just doing that again, but trying to make it cleaner
00:13:54 <hppavilion[2]> Actually, I should use decidable grammars. That seems less stupid
00:13:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: there are some who think that the real problem with answering the P vs. NP question is that no one has a real grip on how powerful P is. and CSG is almost as bad.
00:14:44 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: the thing is, it's know that equivalence of context-sensitive grammars is undecidable. of course you can try to decide it for as many cases as possible, but to sell this, scientifically, you need a compelling reason why this question is of practical interest, I think, because theoreticians will not care much about methods that only work in some cases.
00:15:28 <hppavilion[2]> int-e: It's a proof assistant. Proving their equivalence is the job of the user, not of the program. I just want to know what tools to include.
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00:16:24 <int-e> hppavilion[2]: I bet you'll find publications on testing equivalence of CFGs, even though the problem is undecidable, precisely because there's some practical interest. In fact: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/sumitg/pubs/oopsla15-edu.pdf
00:16:40 <hppavilion[2]> OK, what I need is a concrete machine that is a decider (machine that always halts)
00:17:14 <hppavilion[2]> (concrete as in "some sort of metaphor that you can actually think about and manipulate")
00:18:15 <ais523> esolang idea I had a while back: a language where the only data structure is strings, which are manipulated character-wise
00:18:31 <ais523> except at all points, each variable has to contain a real English word or the program crashes
00:18:44 <ais523> the problem is I can't see a way to make it TC without losing the spirit behind the language
00:20:29 <ais523> well, "naturally" it ends up as a finite state machine
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00:20:42 <ais523> and those normally allow uninteresting translations of programs via hardcoding the output
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00:21:02 <ais523> if you take input it's more interesting but even then I suspect you'd just use two similar words as 0 and 1 and have all your variables as booleans
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00:25:16 <mad> are there a lot of systems that we just don't know if they're turing complete yet?
00:26:44 <mad> like, systems that can loop finitely or infinitely (and where it's not trivial to determine how long it'll loop), and where the amount of info in it can increase infinitely or decrease, but there are no proofs of turing completeness or non-completeness
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00:31:19 <mad> stuff like the collatz conjecture and the mandelbrot fractal and so forth
00:31:42 <mad> possibly some kinds of recursive equations or summation
00:33:45 <mad> and lychrel numbers
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00:35:16 <mad> I'm kinda wondering if most of them are turing machines but are just excessively hard to write a program in
00:36:16 <mad> or if it's possible to have a system that has most trappings that would make a turing machine (infinitely growable state, unpredictable halting) but are just too chaotic to be turing complete
00:37:11 <oerjan> ais523: obviously you cannot do it with a finite number of variables, which means you need some kind to structure an unbounded number of them.
00:37:33 <ais523> oerjan: I've been wondering whether English actually has infinitely many words
00:37:40 <ais523> but even if it did, they'd follow predictable patterns i think
00:37:45 <ais523> in an uninteresting way
00:37:57 <ais523> so yes, you need unboundedly many variables, but in an interesting way somehow
00:38:22 <oerjan> ais523: the first obvious idea is that arrays of variables need to be grammatically correct phrases
00:38:46 <ais523> you'd need a better dictionary for that
00:38:49 <int-e> just make it a crosswords thing
00:38:54 <ais523> but fizzie probably has one, so that's not insurmountable
00:38:58 <mad> english doesn't meaningfully have infinite words
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00:39:09 * ais523 imagines an array full entirely of "buffalo"
00:39:15 <mad> mostly because your morphemic construction is too limited
00:39:53 <mad> though I guess you could do it in a polysynthetic language
00:40:19 <ais523> mad: you can argue the case for tautonyms
00:40:32 <mad> start with a verb -> nominalize -> incorporate into a verb -> nominalize -> incorporate into a verb -> nominalize -> etc...
00:40:37 <ais523> but that's basically just unary that can't get shorter than three
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00:41:47 * mad looks up tautonums
00:42:03 <mad> latin animal names that have the same name twice or more?
00:42:36 <ais523> the word's basically been generalized to mean any word that contains a repeating section
00:42:51 <mad> how do you do that in english
00:43:20 <oerjan> hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
00:43:23 <mad> afaik it's like the language with the least reduplication morphemes in the world
00:43:40 <oerjan> mad: *MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA*
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00:44:50 <mad> (ok that might have been a hyper-hyper-bole :3 )
00:45:37 <int-e> so following the crossword idea, what about this: There's an infinite grid, initially populate with an 'a' at the origin. There's an operation that takes an english word and tries to insert it into the crosswords; it would try to insert the word in some fixed order that moves out from the origin, and succeed if the word could be inserted (overlapping with at least one existing word, filling at...
00:45:43 <int-e> ...least one space, and preserving the property that all vertical and horizontal words are proper english words... like scrabble). You get back one bit of information, namely whether the operation succeeded or not.
00:46:14 <int-e> So it's an awkward write only storage... but not clearly insufficient to make things TC.
00:46:40 <int-e> err, append only is what I wanted to say.
00:47:36 <shachaf> oerjan: that swat is for something in the distant past tdnh
00:48:44 <oerjan> shachaf: behold the long arm of the swatter
00:48:45 <mad> english is possibly on the bottom end of the scale for how modular its words are
00:48:59 <mad> actually I'm pretty sure it is
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00:49:54 <mad> due to the combination of tons of loanwords and low complexity of the verb grammar and noun grammar
00:51:41 <int-e> oerjan: isn't that how you normally feel?
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00:54:34 <int-e> oh, foreshadowing (GG)...
00:55:47 <augur> i dont know what it means to say that a language's words are modular
00:56:26 <augur> as for infinitely many english words, english morphology allows cycles
00:56:40 <augur> so there are infinitely many words, but not in a hugely interesting way
00:57:04 <int-e> Sprachbaukastenträume (dreams of construction kits for languages)
00:57:35 <augur> int-e: there's a language construction kit out there
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00:58:17 <int-e> that isn't quite the point I was trying to make
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00:59:09 <oerjan> språkmeningsutvekslingskatastrofe
00:59:27 <augur> if the point is about german, dont be fooled. german "very long words" are actually multiple words, but the orthographic convention is to not use spaces
00:59:50 <augur> grammatically, they're not single words, just compound words
01:00:12 <augur> english has them in abundance just like german but english orthography for compounding is to use spaces
01:00:42 <mad> augur: give me an example of english cycle
01:01:04 <augur> mad: -ish is Noun -> Adjective, -ness is Adjective -> Noun
01:01:59 <oerjan> int-e: i think my evil has gone too far.
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01:02:24 <int-e> oerjan: you could drive space ships with it, but I see that as a feature
01:02:38 <mad> is -nessish possible?
01:02:49 <int-e> it's not nearly as bad as the space ships driven by bad news (--> Hitchhiker)
01:03:42 <augur> mad: but the meanings of these are tricky, because -ness creates an abstract noun, so we get increasing fuzziness and it rapidly becomes weird
01:03:48 <augur> but grammatically its fine
01:04:57 <augur> of course there's always anti- :)
01:05:10 <int-e> augur: The point was that compound nouns are *very* modular.
01:05:12 <augur> anti^n-X is always fine, of course
01:05:27 <augur> int-e: i still dont know what modular means in this context :)
01:06:08 <int-e> modular things can be combined more or less freely, but also taken apart.
01:06:20 <augur> oh, agglutinative, then
01:06:41 <augur> as opposed to fusional
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01:07:23 <augur> english is on the agglutinating end of the spectrum but it has some places where fusional morphology is found
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01:09:59 <mad> eh, I'd call english analytic
01:10:18 <mad> and for the parts that aren't analytic, fusional
01:10:50 <mad> agglutinating generally implies that your compounding is relatively clean-cut
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01:11:46 <mad> which isn't really the case for english (or any european language really)
01:12:30 <oerjan> mad: before today, i'd _almost_ started thinking he'd changed his ways.
01:13:18 <mad> I don't think I know him anyways
01:14:32 <oerjan> mad: old channel troll who keeps coming back. this time it took longer before i noticed it was him (in fact i got tipped)
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01:16:41 <oerjan> although that was a while ago... he was behaving so well i decided to stay silent.
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01:25:00 <mad> makes sense
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01:27:24 <int-e> two unecessary outbursts using foul language, as far as I can tell.
01:27:48 <int-e> (boily uses fowl language all the time and he's still allowed here, how fair is that)
01:28:37 <fowl> I speak clicks, whistles and clucks
01:28:44 <shachaf> to be fair boily only uses it when he quits
01:28:48 <shachaf> so you can't kick him anyway
01:28:55 <fowl> Three distinct bird languages
01:29:04 <fowl> Each with their own grammar and syntax
01:29:05 <FireFly> foal language on the other hand...
01:29:28 <fowl> oerjan: nahh I don't associate with geese
01:29:40 <fowl> My chicken friends are as low as I'll stoop
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01:30:19 <hppavilion[2]> Huh. I seem to remember earendel participating in discussion at some point.
01:31:00 <fowl> hppavilion[2]: I dont have flash plugins on my phone
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01:37:10 <\oren\> I seem to remember hearing the word "entonces" in spanish
01:38:47 <mad> I think it means something like "so then"
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01:40:40 <augur> mad: english is analytic too. analytic is about syntax, agglutinating is about morphology
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01:41:02 <augur> as for compounding, agglutinating generally isnt about compound words. its about affixes
01:41:26 <augur> and english affixes have very well-defined borders
01:41:48 <mad> not compared to, say, japanese
01:42:00 <augur> i'd say they're about the same on that
01:42:19 <mad> or I guess chinese which is hard to beat
01:42:27 <augur> chinese has basically no affixes
01:42:35 <fowl> I'm working on a programming language but am afraid to show it off because it looks a lot like smalltalk
01:42:35 <augur> so chinese isnt a good comparison
01:42:55 <augur> english might be marginally more prone to morphophonological processes than japanese is, tho
01:43:11 <augur> at least standard japanese. i suspect dialects have more morphophonology going on
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01:44:49 <mad> well, chinese has tons of compound words
01:44:57 <mad> which I guess isn't really the same as affixes
01:45:38 <mad> what about -zi words, does -zi count as an affix?
01:46:06 <augur> there are maybe a handful of affixes in chinese, but very few
01:46:26 <mad> or like, -ren compounds
01:46:34 <augur> i'd be surprised if there were more than affixes tho
01:47:06 <augur> more than 20 affixes
01:47:41 <mad> I guess you could say that chinese affixes aren't pure affixes, they also have a vocabulary meaning
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01:48:32 <augur> whether its an affix or not is determined entirely by whether its bound or not
01:48:44 <mad> and you could say that about a lot of chinese's grammar, most of its grammar words also have a vocabulary meaning
01:48:49 <mad> like how it does prepositions
01:49:53 <augur> well prepositions are words
01:50:22 <mad> yeah they're definitely free words in chinese
01:50:24 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> Huh. I seem to remember earendel participating in discussion at some point. <-- yes, he seemed to be making an effort a few times.
01:50:36 <mad> well, deciding whether stuff is bound in chinese is harder, because stuff doesn't really bind phonologically in phonological words
01:51:07 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> What paradigms have never been used for golphing? <-- . o O ( XML? )
01:51:12 <mad> morphemes are really easy to split in chinese, words are hard
01:51:27 <mad> kindof the reverse situation of a typical european language
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01:54:07 <oerjan> <fowl> I'm working on a programming language but am afraid to show it off because it looks a lot like smalltalk <-- ais523 has the same problem with Feather *ducks*
01:54:58 <shachaf> oerjan: now you're using fowl language
01:55:12 <shachaf> hm, that might be ambiguous
01:55:12 <augur> mad: phonological fusion isnt a good indication of boundness
01:55:32 <augur> english has lots of inter-word phonological processes (as do many, if not most, languages)
01:55:35 <shachaf> i was talking about "*ducks*" but in retrospect "Feather" is a fowl language and so is fowl's language
01:55:44 <mad> augur : I guess the case for english being agglutinating is helped by the fact that many of the typical european more messy morphemes have been dropped
01:55:45 <augur> boundness is a morphosyntactic issue
01:56:22 <augur> mad: indeed. english is mostly agglutinating. fusion and suppletion are (universally, i think) more common as the words are more common
01:56:22 <mad> most (but not all!) of the weird germanic plurals have been dropped
01:56:38 <mad> case is mostly gone
01:56:41 <augur> so english has lots of suppletive and fusional morphology but its in the highly common words
01:56:48 <augur> same is true of turkish, which is canonically agglutinating
01:57:05 <mad> suppletive-anything argues against agglutinative
01:57:13 <augur> its not an either or
01:57:27 <augur> probably no language, or very few, is strictly one or the other
01:57:31 <mad> also english has a lot of irregular verbs
01:57:36 <mad> numerically
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01:57:43 <mad> they aren't very irregular
01:57:46 <mad> but there are lots of them
01:58:06 <mad> especially in the formation of the past and the past participle
01:58:09 <augur> there's some debate about whether they're truly irregular or not, actually
01:58:20 <augur> tho all of them are "irregular" in morphologically interesting ways
01:58:30 <augur> like using non-concatenative morphology, which is always fun
01:58:32 <mad> if english was really an agglutinative language it would have a lot fewer
01:58:47 <mad> japanese has like 3 irregular verbs overall
01:59:10 <augur> like i said, english is on the agglutinating end of the spectrum, not that it's uniformly agglutinating
01:59:22 <mad> non-concatenative = not agglutinative
01:59:42 <augur> that.. is also up for debate :)
01:59:49 <mad> I'd say compared to the world mean agglutinativeness, english isn't that agglutinative
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02:00:12 <augur> that might be true!
02:00:22 <augur> proportionally, english is majority agglutinating tho
02:00:48 <augur> its hard to count, too, because many english words are partially fusional partially agglutinating
02:00:56 <mad> well, most english inflections are somewhat concatenative but that's also true of fusional languages
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02:02:22 <augur> additionally, even in regular verbs, english is fusional, because like almost all indo-european languages, tense and person are coded in one morpheme
02:02:34 <augur> even if its a regular affix
02:02:51 <augur> i dont know if there's a good way to quantify these things, tbh
02:02:53 <mad> generally the average fusional language has tons of inflections that are basically concatenating something but there complications like suppletive etc
02:03:11 <mad> this is a good description of english
02:03:23 <mad> it just has less inflections than other european languages overall
02:03:37 <mad> but the inflections it does have aren't that regular
02:04:10 <mad> well, I see it as a 2d classification
02:04:21 <mad> one dimension is amount of inflection
02:04:31 <mad> and the other dimension is how regular that inflection is
02:04:42 <augur> no i understand, but i mean, it's hard to measure things
02:04:59 <augur> i mean, look, english has a lot of regular verbs, right
02:05:02 <mad> so amount of inflection goes: isolative - analytic - synthetic - polysynthetic
02:05:24 <augur> that use the -s affix for 3rd person present tense, yeah?
02:05:36 <augur> singular, in particular
02:05:48 <mad> and then agglutinative means that the inflections are very regular and concatenative, and fusional means that the inflections are not very regular and concatenative
02:06:12 <augur> so how do we measure the contribution of this affix, which is fusional?
02:06:21 <mad> augur : yes but it interacts with tense
02:06:27 <augur> its an affix, so it should contribute positively to an agglutination measure
02:06:37 <augur> but its fusional so it should contribute positively to a fusion measure
02:06:46 <mad> and it's suppletive for like 2 or 3 verbs (to be, to have...)
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02:07:29 <augur> so i think defining these metrics is non-trivial. im sure it can be done, in various ways, but its hard to know how to compare languages beyond intuition
02:07:43 <mad> likewise, plural is -s but there are also some suppletive plurals
02:08:13 <mad> if english was agglutinative it wouldn't have the suppletive plurals
02:08:27 <augur> again, you cant just say "if english was agglutinative"
02:08:34 <augur> this is a spectrum
02:08:44 <mad> as agglutinative as turkish or japanese
02:09:05 <mad> or other languages typically called 'agglutinative'
02:09:12 <augur> sure, if english was as agglutinating as those languages it would be like those languages
02:09:48 <augur> anyway this is a silly conversation
02:10:41 <mad> english is agglutinating if you compare it to, say, german, but that's like calling trump 'poor' by comparing him to bill gates
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02:11:29 <augur> i would say english is more like turkish and japanese than it is like french in terms of agglutination
02:11:29 <mad> like, I object to calling any european language agglutinative
02:11:48 <augur> but english is more isolating than turkish and japanese
02:12:08 <mad> english is also slightly more analytic than french
02:12:11 <augur> english nominal morphology is especially agglutinating
02:12:27 <mad> I don't think so
02:12:35 <augur> its highly agglutinating
02:12:51 <augur> derivationally, that is. the inflectional morphology is too but there's not much of that so
02:13:19 <mad> derivationally it has all sorts of kinks due to the fact that the derivations happened in many different languages
02:13:50 <augur> kinks are not an obstacle to being agglutinating
02:14:10 <augur> anyway, again, unless we have a measure of agglutination, there's only subjective intuition here
02:14:28 <mad> hmm, I've seen a classification of this
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02:16:52 <mad> something like (group - word - morpheme) (syllable - phoneme - feature), figure out which units on the left side line up with borders of which unit on the right side
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02:17:38 <mad> on an especially clean-cut language like chinese, the lining up happens on the smallest meaning unit (morpheme) and the largest phonetic unit (syllable)
02:18:28 <mad> so chinese can be said to have groups [ words [ morphemes=syllables [ phomemes [ features
02:19:03 <mad> a slightly less clean cut language like japanese has groups [words [ morphemes [ syllables [ phonemes [ features
02:20:38 <mad> you could say that as
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02:21:35 <mad> (1) what's the smallest unit of meaning that syllables don't straddle (2) what's the smallest unit of pronounciation that morphemes don't straddle
02:22:07 <mad> japanese is (1) morphemes (2) syllables
02:24:38 <mad> mongolian is less clean - syllables straddle morphemes but not word boundaries, morphemes straddle phonemes but not features
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02:26:32 <mad> english is less clean still - syllable match word boundaries, morphemes straddle everything including features
02:27:06 <mad> french is the least clean and can have multiple words in a single syllable, and morpheme boundaries are hard to isolate
02:28:27 <mad> ...ok that sucked and didn't come across, sorry
02:29:13 <mad> plus it's not a very good classification for agglutinativeness anyways (which doesn't match very well with this and is much more accurately described as "irregularity" I think)
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02:47:21 <oerjan> ent0nces: you should fix your connection hth
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02:48:15 <oerjan> well that was pretty good timing
02:49:01 <shachaf> also what happened to <oerjan> afk
02:49:09 <oerjan> shachaf: i was afk hth
02:49:37 <oerjan> this shockingly didn't last longer than until i'd made some food.
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02:53:21 <oerjan> ent0nces: you should fix your connection hth
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03:00:01 <oerjan> afaict entonces automatically rejoins every 9 minutes, and then pings out as if eir client doesn't respond to pings at all.
03:00:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:01:50 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b ent0nces!*@*$##fixyourconnection.
03:01:56 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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03:08:11 <shachaf> oerjan: wow, your count was way off
03:12:00 <oerjan> shachaf: note that this is after last rejoin, not after pinging out hth
03:12:38 <oerjan> shachaf: YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG I CAN HOLD A 1 OKAY?
03:12:45 <ais523> ent0nces doesn't respond to ctcp version
03:12:53 <ais523> (he/she/it is online right now; I'm guessing it's a bot)
03:13:16 <oerjan> ais523: a bot not programmed to respond to pings? makes sense.
03:13:29 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
03:14:01 <oerjan> ais523: btw i snapped and banned *!*canaima@* yesterday hth
03:14:20 <oerjan> i am starting to wonder if all of these canaimans are one troll.
03:15:08 <oerjan> there have been canaimans who joined briefly, then left.
03:15:37 <oerjan> but anyway one of them (with several nicks) did get on our nerves.
03:15:49 <shachaf> am i an actor? rot, canaima
03:15:50 <ais523> oerjan: I feel the ban is justified but a redirect would make sense
03:15:55 <ais523> I just have no idea where to redirect to
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03:18:38 <shachaf> am i an ache, eh, canaima?
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03:27:41 <oerjan> htf did that happen, e's not used a _ before...
03:27:47 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
03:28:09 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -b ent0nces!*@*$##fixyourconnection.
03:28:13 <shachaf> this is also a different host
03:28:27 <shachaf> actually it looks like they're changing host regularly
03:28:37 <oerjan> well i didn't put in the host anyway
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03:28:52 <shachaf> well maybe you can help me make canaima palindromes twh
03:29:35 <oerjan> shachaf: i got as far as "am i an accordion, noid roc canaima?"
03:30:02 <oerjan> actually then i tried adding para and things went even more downhill
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03:32:34 <shachaf> oerjan: you didn't reban hth
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03:32:47 <oerjan> well i was hoping the connection issue had been fixed
03:33:01 <shachaf> why did you start hoping that now
03:33:26 <oerjan> well it hasn't pinged out
03:33:39 <oerjan> i guess it doesn't recognize that it's already on
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03:36:00 <oerjan> let's see if a new one arrives at :41 or so
03:36:35 <oerjan> ent0nces_ only started pinging out when ent0nces joined
03:37:49 <oerjan> it started a couple minutes earlier
03:37:54 <shachaf> am i an acronym? YNOR, canaima?
03:39:04 <shachaf> "am i an accumulator? rot, alum UC" -- canaima
03:39:53 <oerjan> am i an acrobat, a tab or canaima?
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04:30:32 <\oren\> why the hell is the government sending me so much money?!
04:31:13 <\oren\> I'm not unemployed or anything
04:31:50 <\oren\> tax refund of seven thousand dollars, what the hell?!
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04:33:44 <mad> sounds like a calculation mistake
04:34:38 <\oren\> well they sent me a check. I hope not everyone's taxes were calculated like that, our overnment would go bankrupt
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04:37:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46846&oldid=44697 * 173.233.38.21 * (+76)
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04:42:42 <\oren\> Oh, never mind. apparently it's because I only worked from this fall this year, so my income was very low on an annual basis, or something...
04:43:01 <mad> yeah that would do it
04:44:08 <shachaf> \oren\: how can your government go bankrupt if they can make more CAD whenever they want hth
04:45:16 <\oren\> shachaf: well they have to buy the aluminum the loonies are made of, lol
04:47:04 <\oren\> hmm why doesn't the US government pay off its debt by printing more money
04:47:29 <\oren\> we always hear about trillion dollars of national debt on tv
04:47:31 <shachaf> "The coin is manufactured using a patented distinctive bi-metallic coin-locking mechanism.[2] The coins are estimated to last 20 years."
04:47:32 <mad> because that would probably trigger hyperinflation
04:47:40 <shachaf> i.e. longer than the patents
04:47:53 <shachaf> \oren\: well, what's wrong with having debt
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04:50:50 <mad> I dunno if US's problem is really that much debt
04:51:18 <\oren\> shachaf: it's better to pay for things up front than to borrow money
04:51:29 <mad> it's mostly a canard from the republicans specifically in the US case
04:51:39 <mad> like, I'm not saying that debt is good
04:52:24 <mad> slashing tax rates on the rich and starting a trillion dollar war on Iraq then complaining about debt.....
04:52:59 <mad> "look at this we're having deficits we have to slash education and welfare!
04:53:00 <\oren\> shachaf: borrowing money is like stealing bread from your future sel
04:53:32 <mad> if you borrow money and then spend it on infrastructure
04:53:56 <mad> then you have, say, 1 billion in debt but also 1 billion in infrastructure
04:54:36 <\oren\> right whereas the us spent trillions destroying other countries' infrastructure
04:57:44 <mad> what I don't understand
04:58:02 <mad> is how people who tried to get us into yet an other war in Iran
04:58:18 <mad> can live without any guilt over that
05:06:03 <shachaf> \oren\: but a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow
05:09:12 <shachaf> well, a dollar today is worth more than a dollar in ten years
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05:10:33 <\oren\> that seriously depends on what happens in the next ten years
05:12:36 <\oren\> if you borrow money for ten years you are taking a large risk that you may become unemployed, etc and be unable to pay the intest, then get charged large fees by evil rich people, and end up destitute
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05:14:36 <\oren\> better to pay today and be a free man, than to promise payment and be reduced to a slave
05:15:14 <shachaf> who said anything about interest
05:20:37 <\oren\> uhhh, evryone I've ever seen offering me some loan?
05:21:47 <shachaf> i said a dollar today is worth more than a dollar in ten years
05:25:21 <hppavilion[2]> A programming language based on request-response rather than a single entity
05:25:31 <\oren\> right but a dollar is worth more if you have $1000 than if you have $100,000
05:28:16 <shachaf> maybe? what does that have to do with it?
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05:30:25 <\oren\> so you'd better be sure that you'll still have the money in 10 years,
05:31:26 <\oren\> or else the $100 loan you took out 10 years ago may be making you lose your home
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05:35:08 <\oren\> iow, a dollar today is only *likely* to be worth more. it's encumbered by great risk
05:35:58 <\oren\> that you'll lose your ability to pay it
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05:39:25 <\oren\> specifically, lose your ability to pay it and still pay for rent, food and transport
05:41:19 <shachaf> if you think borrowing money is such a bad deal then you should get into the business of lending money
05:45:43 <\oren\> I prefer to make money by honest and moral means
05:47:21 <shachaf> i thought your job involved writing software?
05:51:17 <\oren\> it doesn't involve exploiting my position as a holder of substantial money to extract more money from people who have less of it than me
05:53:06 <shachaf> but you get to wear a fancy hat
05:53:57 <\oren\> I wear an ushanka in cold weather does that count?
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06:51:06 <oerjan> 22 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 20999ms
06:51:38 <izabera> then i messed up something because apache is up but i can't ping it
06:58:40 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe the 23rd packet would've made it
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10:40:09 <Melvar> I wonder, does jq count as an esoteric language when used for something besides its intended purpose?
10:40:50 <Melvar> Thinking about it, the raw input/output and null input options argue against that.
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14:35:59 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/irclogs/_esoteric/????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory \ not lately; try `seen gregor ever
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15:15:03 <impomatic> There's a Core War tournament at DEF CON this year http://silverwingedseraph.net/def-con-24-0x20th-anniversary-core-war-competition
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15:48:59 <b_jonas> Do we have an RFC 1345 encoder script in HackEgo? It would be sufficiently eso.
15:53:02 <Melvar> `` jq -n '0 | recurse(. + 1)'
15:53:20 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: jq: command not found
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16:01:29 <HackEgo> /bin/bash: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.26, BuildID[sha1]=0x5bb332752cc304fa7fbb838bdf7d7766ffc7a8a1, stripped
16:03:17 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:03:52 <Melvar> `fetch https://github.com/stedolan/jq/releases/download/jq-1.5/jq-linux64
16:06:04 <Melvar> `` mv jq-linux64 bin/jq
16:06:23 <Melvar> `` jq -n '0 | recurse(. + 1)'
16:06:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /hackenv/bin/jq: Permission denied
16:06:48 <Melvar> `` jq -n '0 | recurse(. + 1)'
16:06:50 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 4 \ 5 \ 6 \ 7 \ 8 \ 9 \ 10 \ 11 \ 12 \ 13 \ 14 \ 15 \ 16 \ 17 \ 18 \ 19 \ 20 \ 21 \ 22 \ 23 \ 24 \ 25 \ 26 \ 27 \ 28 \ 29 \ 30 \ 31 \ 32 \ 33 \ 34 \ 35 \ 36 \ 37 \ 38 \ 39 \ 40 \ 41 \ 42 \ 43 \ 44 \ 45 \ 46 \ 47 \ 48 \ 49 \ 50 \ 51 \ 52 \ 53 \ 54 \ 55 \ 56 \ 57 \ 58 \ 59 \ 60 \ 61 \ 62 \ 63 \ 64 \ 65 \ 66 \ 67 \ 68 \ 69 \ 70 \ 71 \
16:08:31 <Melvar> A json transforming language.
16:09:07 <Melvar> Which is neat because it feels so functional, like an arrow combinator dsl.
16:10:14 <Melvar> Or, as others I think have put it, “grep, sed, awk for JSON”.
16:15:08 <Melvar> `` findmnt -J | jq 'recurse(.children[]) | select(.source | startswith("/")) | del(.children)'
16:15:19 <HackEgo> findmnt: invalid option -- 'J' \ \ Usage: \ findmnt [options] \ findmnt [options] <device> | <mountpoint> \ findmnt [options] <device> <mountpoint> \ findmnt [options] [--source <device>] [--target <mountpoint>] \ \ Options: \ -s, --fstab search in static table of filesystems \ -m, --mtab search in table of mounted fi
16:19:58 <\oren\> i use jq a lot in my work... for some reason all my datasets are json
16:21:29 <\oren\> for automation i use python however
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17:52:18 <\oren\> what if you had two push down automata that could send signals to each other
17:53:39 <\oren\> the resulting system would be turing complete even though each component isn't
17:54:45 <\oren\> yes... i think that will be my next esolang
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18:51:58 <rdococ> what's the trope you get when an enemy loses all their HP but doesn't die?
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19:05:43 <xfix> Last Chance Hit Point, if you mean TV Tropes?
19:08:03 <izabera> this is literally the worst tragedy ever happened to me http://i.imgur.com/qyxpDKi.png
19:08:50 <xfix> There is no link, how you will follow it...
19:08:57 <xfix> That's the worst thing ever.
19:12:05 <izabera> i'm gonna find the uploader and sue them
19:14:38 <rdococ> xfix: that only means an attack can only kill it if it's already at 1 hp
19:14:55 <rdococ> I meant, when their HP is at 0 (or negative!) but they still attack
19:15:08 <rdococ> I wonder what negative hit points even mean
19:15:48 <rdococ> hppavilion[1], in a video game, what do you think negative hit points would mean
19:16:34 <rdococ> oh my god I can't help but laugh at that
19:16:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: But it would mean purgatory. You have to play a stupid part of the game to get back to the main game
19:17:09 <rdococ> not necessarily, I mean if I were to make one, it'd mean, um
19:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: complex hitpoints are waaaaaaaaaaay more interesting
19:21:42 <rdococ> what does that mean? I mean, I kinda barely sort of ish understand what combinatory logic means, but quantum combinatory logic?
19:22:30 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's SK with the additional τ combinator, which takes two arguments and returns one with 50/50 probability
19:22:47 <rdococ> how would that improve hit points?
19:23:53 <rdococ> what about every hit is an instant KO and you just have to dodge a lot?
19:24:18 <rdococ> nah, it wouldn't be a random chance
19:24:44 <rdococ> avoiding damage would mean solving little minigames to survive... actually, Undertale is a perfect example
19:25:24 <rdococ> I had the idea of it being like a dance match, you would have to time the moves right to avoid attack
19:26:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: My biggest difficulty with QCL is that I can't find the bits in CCL
19:27:22 <rdococ> what's the difference between quantum and probabilistic?
19:27:49 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_computing
19:28:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: In QC, you have superpositions (and entanglement). That means a qubit can be in a superposition of 1 and 0. PC doesn't allow superpositions.
19:29:00 <rdococ> but couldn't τ return a superposition?
19:29:56 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It could, but I think that some other combinator should do that
19:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> OK, Q takes two expressions and returns a superposition between them.
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19:31:33 <rdococ> I still don't fully understand S :p
19:31:35 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Wait, I think this system supports cloning ATM
19:32:04 <rdococ> what does substituting z into x and y even mean
19:32:23 <rdococ> what does xz even mean
19:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It's like x(z) in classical notation, but it's more general
19:32:56 <rdococ> ((x z) (y z)), right...?
19:34:22 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: The cool thing about curried functions is that they only take one argument, but they can return other functions that take more arguments
19:34:56 <Melvar> In a curried representation, those two are effectively the same thing.
19:34:59 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So if foo(x, y, z) = x+y+z, then if bar = curry(foo) then bar(x)(y)(z) = x+y+z
19:35:29 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So in classical notation (still curried, xz(yz) = x(z)(y(z))
19:37:05 <rdococ> S K K x = K x (K x) = x
19:37:31 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: So the problem with SKQO is that you can clone a quantum state and observe it multiple times
19:38:02 <rdococ> is observing like the tau operator?
19:38:22 <rdococ> like O (Q x y) is equivalent to t x y?
19:40:09 <rdococ> how would you clone something?
19:40:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Or are you asking how you clone something in SKOQ despite it being banned in reality?
19:41:43 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: SOO like SKK; that's a combinator expression
19:42:17 <myname> just collapse on applying Q
19:42:41 <rdococ> or do you mean Q x y z?
19:43:04 <myname> yeah, Q x y z = (Q x y) z = either x z or y z
19:43:37 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That works better, I suppose. But how do we prevent cloning?
19:44:01 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Unless the Q "object" collapses all at once
19:44:25 <myname> well, i would make it so, i.e. S entangles states
19:44:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So when the expression is collapsed once, it collapses everywhere
19:44:44 <myname> but you actually cannot define how they entangle
19:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: e.g. is "for example", i.e. is "in other words"
19:45:27 <myname> like, how do you make a state out of Q x y that collapses to y when Q x y collapses to x?
19:45:55 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well, probabilistically speaking, you just need a combinator like M
19:46:35 <hppavilion[1]> M(Qxy) = Qxy(Qxy), and unless we have the global collapse protection, that could be x(y)
19:46:48 <myname> you could actually make both S and $ where S entangles a Q as is and $ entangles it reversed
19:47:06 <rdococ> it's not the quantum stuff that hurts, it's the absense of parentheses
19:47:25 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Remember that application is left-associative and you'll be fine
19:47:55 <rdococ> are we trying to find out an equivalent to O?
19:48:08 <myname> i do think there is no need for O
19:48:19 <rdococ> hppavilion[1], do you mean M, or SKQ?
19:48:41 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Qxyz = xz|yz, because Qxy creates a superposition between x and y and applying a superposition collapses it
19:49:08 <rdococ> so it's like observing it?
19:50:40 <rdococ> I guess K (Q x y) z = Q x y, right?
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19:53:44 <myname> my proposal: S a b (Q x y) = a (Q x y) (b (Q x y)) and $ a b (Q x y) = a (Q x y) (b (Q y x))
19:54:52 <rdococ> Q (K x) (K y) z = K x z | K y z = x|y, right?
19:56:23 <rdococ> but isn't Q a superposition?
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19:56:45 <rdococ> Q (K x) (K y) z = K x z or K y z = x or y, right?
19:56:50 <myname> what do you say x|y should be?
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19:56:55 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Wait, shouldn't applying a superposition to something yield another superposition?
19:59:09 <rdococ> that's my definition..?
19:59:22 <rdococ> where T is probabilistic x or y
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20:02:18 <myname> i don't get why it ignores X completely
20:03:42 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It extracts the argument and applies it to something else, it appears
20:04:24 * hppavilion[1] realizes that "X is a combinator" was a stupid thing to say
20:04:33 <myname> as i said, that'd be \y.\y.yKx
20:06:14 <myname> the first one was right
20:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But I have a feeling R is impossible, because it allows you to undo Q which could be used for cloning
20:39:29 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Something that'd be nice for neoletters is if arrows
20:39:47 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: ...if arrows properly connected with boxdrawing characters
20:40:03 <myname> "help me, premature ejaculation man" "i'm cuming!"
20:42:11 <quintopia> "just call me a premature ejaculation, because I'm coming early"
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20:48:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Python invader * New user account
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20:53:35 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: ill look into the arrow problem. i thought they already did connect
20:54:31 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: But the vertical arrows do not connect with vertical boxdrawers
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21:11:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46847&oldid=46620 * Python invader * (+2091)
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21:22:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46848&oldid=46847 * Python invader * (-2092) /* See also */
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21:56:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46849&oldid=46769 * IAM * (+218) /* Last Half—Or Is It? */ new section
22:02:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IAM]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46850&oldid=46835 * IAM * (-173)
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22:03:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46851&oldid=46849 * Quintopia * (+266) /* Last Half—Or Is It? */
22:14:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wizard: not found
22:14:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pirate: not found
22:14:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdo: not found
22:14:52 <HackEgo> char/Char is a prominent component of charcoal.
22:16:02 <b_jonas> `slashlearn glass/I can eat glass and it doesn't hurt me.
22:22:22 <Taneb> If I wanted a ticker tape printer for like amusing retro computing purposes
22:22:27 <Taneb> How would I go about looking for one
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22:24:54 <b_jonas> Taneb: they're usually built into teletype or telex machines, not separate
22:25:17 <b_jonas> Taneb: there's a working one on display in Andrássy út here if you want to try it
22:25:52 <Taneb> b_jonas, I have 14 hours to apply on behalf of my uni's CS society for a grant
22:25:56 <Taneb> And I have no idea what to get
22:26:33 <b_jonas> Taneb: more beefy servers? or hard disks? they're always useful
22:26:48 <Taneb> We have more servers than we have places to put servers
22:26:57 <b_jonas> Taneb: um, then apply for more place?
22:27:12 <Taneb> That's normally done as an ongoing thing and this is a one-time thing grant
22:31:19 <Taneb> Or done as an arrangement between us and the uni, which is a different thing againb
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22:33:28 <Taneb> I'd like to get something cool we can display and do fun and pretty looking things with
22:35:01 <fizzie> Get a Cray XT5, I think they print those fancy panels on it as part of the deal.
22:35:09 <fizzie> At least I assume so, because they always seem to have some.
22:35:30 <fizzie> (s/XT5/whatever number is current/)
22:35:53 <fizzie> Admittedly that would also need a place to put it in.
22:37:38 <fizzie> Hey, the CSC upgraded Sisu (a Cray XC40) actually has pretty front tiles, unlike the previous CSC ones.
22:37:59 <fizzie> https://research.csc.fi/documents/48467/84606/sisu_phase2_1b.jpg <- see
22:38:25 <fizzie> Northern lights, even though the machine is in a place where you can see those maybe once a year if that.
22:38:42 <Taneb> fizzie, that looks a little above our price range I'm afraid
22:39:36 <fizzie> Compare to CSC's previous (XT4/XT5) one: https://s3.amazonaws.com/gs-geo-images/296fd8fd-0303-4b26-b5e0-ce6d3368b0c0_l.jpg
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22:41:19 <fizzie> It's not really a "CS" thing, but if you can't think of anything, you could always get a fancy 3D printer, since then you can print whatever.
22:44:42 <prooftechnique> Oh, you could get a steno machine. Some of those have ticker tape
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22:46:47 <fizzie> Someone -- I forget who -- got one of the http://formlabs.com/ printers at their office. It does the thing where you have some liquid that's hardened by a laser, instead of squeezing melty stuff out through a nozzle.
22:47:21 <prooftechnique> That was one of those things that I wanted to back on KS, but I didn't have the money :(
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22:53:17 <boily> b_jonas: b_jellonas. interesting reference you slashlearned there.
22:54:03 <boily> prooftechellonique.
22:54:31 <HackEgo> I can eat glass and it doesn't hurt me.
22:54:43 <boily> ↑ it's used as a minimal translateable sentence to showcase different languages and their grammatical features.
22:55:07 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Can_Eat_Glass
22:55:34 <b_jonas> boily: http://www.columbia.edu/~fdc/utf8/
22:55:48 <boily> also, Harvard students were involved.
22:55:51 <b_jonas> boily: I think I learned that one from someone on this channel recently
22:56:38 <FireFly> prooftechnique: inget jag skulle rekommendera
22:57:43 <boily> J'peux manger d'la vitre, ça m'fait pas mal.
22:59:51 <hppavilion[1]> I currently have Logic, Approximation, and Insanity, but Approximation doesn't feel right
23:00:10 <prooftechnique> Unless it's modal logic. That's more of a rosé type of thing
23:00:19 <boily> Constructivist Insanity.
23:00:38 <b_jonas> boily: ouch, that's too many apostrophes for me
23:03:12 <boily> spoken French drops schwas, clustering consonants together with great disrespect to phonotactics hth
23:03:19 <prooftechnique> Amusingly, most of the ensuing dialogue after such a demonstration would likely also be apostrophe
23:03:36 <b_jonas> boily: well sure, but you don't write that by dropping the e usually
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23:05:28 <boily> b_jonas: it is the case.
23:05:43 <boily> https://clyp.it/fdgndqrn
23:09:14 <boily> we have vowels! we're just stingy about spending them all in one go :P
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23:10:39 <prooftechnique> For a language with 17 vowels, that economy seems unnecessary
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23:12:38 <prooftechnique> Also, doesn't what you said mean "I can eat the window"?
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23:13:16 <prooftechnique> I only remember french from high school, but I thought glass was le verre
23:13:27 <b_jonas> prooftechnique: no, window is “la fenêtre” I think
23:14:17 <coppro> boily: don't the French leave some of their schwas in?
23:14:43 <coppro> quebec is' just like j'pns
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23:42:56 <hppavilion[1]> It has absurd startup times, but after that is identical to a Harvard Architecture
23:44:56 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically a Harvard architecture- a control unit, an ALU, data memory, instruction memory, and I/O with buses between the CU and all other components
23:45:20 <prooftechnique> I'm waiting for the part where it's not a Harvard architecture with a fatal flaw
23:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> In addition, however, there's a unit called the "Boot Unit" or "Memory Unit" with one or more read buses from the Data Memory, an equal number of buses to the instruction memory, and a read bus/receiver bus from the Control Unit
23:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> On boot, the CU boots a small script from the data memory, sends a message to the BU to transfer a much larger block to the instruction memory (the BU is specially designed for transferring large amounts of data quickly) and awaits its completion, then continues like a normal Harvard Arhcitecture
23:51:03 <hppavilion[1]> This really only works efficiently if the OS itself executes programs that run on the OS, as opposed to the hardware. Which may or may not be how things work anyway; I don't really know.
23:52:18 <hppavilion[1]> Or is this just Modified Harvard Architecture? I didn't think it was, but a part of the wikipedia page on normal Harvard Architecture suggests it might be
23:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: Harvard Architectures are much faster than Von Neumann architectures
23:53:18 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: But they suffer from the fatal flaw of not being able to, well, boot (without an external operator)
23:54:38 <hppavilion[1]> prooftechnique: The original Harvard Architecture needed someone to physically load programs which were COMPLETELY separate from the data memory.
23:55:07 <hppavilion[1]> Brainfuck is a Harvard architecture; it has a program and data, and they are entirely separate
23:55:42 <hppavilion[1]> Brainfuck where the first len(prog) bytes of the tape hold the program itself (and you can modify it at runtime) are a Von Neumann architecture
23:56:32 <hppavilion[1]> Brainfuck with an instruction that writes the current byte of memory to a particular part of the program is a Modified Harvard Architecture by my understanding
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23:57:43 <hppavilion[1]> Brainfuck with an instruction to transfer a large quantity of memory into the program at a specified location (something like K, which appends the tape to the program) would be whatever this thing is called