00:00:24 -!- moon_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:01:34 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M461523684287504534910579’
00:01:34 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
00:01:51 <int-e> And I'm not sure I'll have the patience to actually read it. But the Goldbach program is relatively short in Laconic, and it really doesn't look like it should require 4888 states
00:02:59 <int-e> ? https://esolangs.org/wiki/Laconic
00:03:20 <oerjan> no, i mean, did you really mean "to" there
00:03:57 * int-e is probably blind to an alternative way of parsing this sentence right now.
00:04:21 <int-e> "the paper on"... oh.
00:04:36 <int-e> that would be confusing :)
00:09:56 -!- moon has joined.
00:10:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Laconic]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46922&oldid=46921 * Oerjan * (+14) Fmt
00:10:14 <tromp> int-e: the almost 5000 states they need has a roughly 4000 state interpreter for locanic
00:10:19 -!- moon has changed nick to Guest80724.
00:10:39 <oerjan> int-e: well mostly it was just that i didn't realize someone made that page
00:11:19 -!- Guest80724 has changed nick to moon__.
00:12:19 * oerjan thinks formatting refs on esolang is confusing after he started using Cite templates on Wikipedia.
00:14:52 * moon__ is downloading freebsd to run on a virtual machine
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00:19:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Var'aq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46923&oldid=46920 * Oerjan * (-233) /* External resources */ merge and template
00:20:30 -!- Xe has changed nick to _8ade2af05f26.
00:20:53 -!- _8ade2af05f26 has changed nick to Xe.
00:21:57 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Can we substitute the complexes for something weirder to get weird quantum physics? :P <-- istr that discussed and the answer is essentially "no"
00:22:14 <oerjan> at least quaternions give nothing more
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00:22:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but what about the duals or split-complexes?
00:23:31 <oerjan> i don't remember what those are.
00:24:52 <oerjan> anyway, another idea is that quantum physics is based on a different idea of probability, and somehow only ordinary probability and quantum probability work without breaking the light speed limit for information.
00:25:01 <shachaf> oerjan: the dual numbers are what you get if you start with the numbers and reverse all the arrows hth
00:25:58 <oerjan> please try better than that if you want a swatting hth
00:26:12 <shachaf> that hurt more than any swatting hth
00:27:05 <shachaf> well i had some good ones yesterday
00:27:12 <oerjan> (and not breaking the light speed limit is important because it's so easy to make up something "weird" that fails to do that)
00:28:04 <oerjan> so the really weird thing about quantum mechanics isn't just how weird it is, but how it manages _not_ to give certain powers.
00:28:24 <oerjan> weird, but not always weird enough.
00:30:12 <shachaf> dan piponi wrote about something like that
00:31:59 <moon__> freebsd is quite close to unix, right?
00:32:10 <oerjan> <shachaf> the image of dorian gray <-- . o O ( this file never changes, although it's SHA256 hash does... )
00:33:00 <shachaf> no one ever talks about that kind of attack on a hash function
00:35:34 <moon__> freebsd is quite close to unix, right?
00:36:11 <shachaf> ah, http://blog.sigfpe.com/2013/10/distributed-computing-with-alien.html
00:36:33 <shachaf> "It suggests that quantum mechanics is right at the edge of the space of possible physics that make life difficult for us. If quantum mechanics were to be tweaked the tiniest amount to make correlations any stronger, large numbers of difficult distributed computing problems would suddenly collapse to become trivial. If the conjecture is true it means that nature looks a bit like a conspiracy to keep comp
00:36:47 <oerjan> so close to unix, so far from plan 9
00:37:18 <oerjan> shachaf: hm that might be where i got it from too
00:38:34 <moon__> that means running a virtual machine of it and treating it like a terminal is not a bad idea (lol)
00:41:16 * oerjan think moon__ may have got whooshed
00:41:30 <moon__> i can be batshit crazy at times
00:41:56 <oerjan> i think they're both POSIX systems, no?
00:44:10 <oerjan> anyway, it's all a big happy family.
00:44:34 <oerjan> don't mind the strange sounds in the attic.
00:46:34 <moon__> vi woont work, saying the disk is readonly, but i have a empty disk mounted, help?
00:49:42 <moon__> it says i have two drives mounted (i guess?) rootfs and devfs
00:50:36 <oerjan> sorry, that command doesn't say whether it's readonly. i've forgotten what does.
00:50:52 * oerjan doesn't do sysadmining himself.
00:51:39 <fizzie> 'mount' generally does.
00:52:35 <b_jonas> if you have root mounted as readonly, then mount will usually give incorrect information, because it tries to read the list of mounted disks from /etc/mtab which is read-only so previous mounts couldn't write it.
00:52:50 -!- moon has joined.
00:53:00 <moon> connection died
00:53:14 -!- moon has changed nick to Guest90291.
00:53:23 <oerjan> ok, i just had problems getting it to show only one mount.
00:53:28 <b_jonas> You can try reading /proc/self/mounts instead to ask the kernel to give you a list of mounts (sadly it's formatted to human-readable irreversibly)
00:53:31 -!- Guest90291 has changed nick to moon___.
00:53:44 <fizzie> b_jonas: At least my mount just reads from /proc. I don't know about FreeBSD's, though.
00:54:00 <oerjan> so i did df . first to get the mount point, then mount | grep ...
00:54:08 -!- moon__ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:54:57 <fizzie> (And my /etc/mtab is a symlink to ../proc/self/mounts, apparently.)
00:55:15 <oerjan> moon___: fizzie said you might have trouble if root is readonly
00:55:20 <b_jonas> moon___: three guesses: (1) try vim, (2) mount a writable disk (possibly a tmpfs) and use the :set directory command of vi to put the temp files there, (3) ask #vim on this network
00:55:41 <moon___> yea, i used the virtual disk supplyed by freebsd
00:55:44 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't know whether that's an idiom or reference.
00:55:55 <oerjan> b_jonas: please stop resembling fizzie twh
00:56:12 <b_jonas> (4) if all else fails, just use sed, it doesn't need to create temp files
00:56:55 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
00:57:06 <b_jonas> moon___: also, um, this might be dumb but, any chance you can just remount the root fs to read-write?
00:57:26 <fizzie> Any chance you can just have a normal installation of a thing.
00:58:42 <b_jonas> moon___: like, first find out why it was mounted read-only, if it was mounted read-only because there are serious file system or disk io errors, then it might be dangerous to try to remount so don't do it, but if it is mounted ro only at boot and something happened and the boot couldn't proceed then it MIGHT be safe to remount,
00:58:51 <b_jonas> moon___: then mount -oremount,rw /
00:59:12 <moon___> cant hurt anything for now
00:59:13 <b_jonas> (if it's on a read-only disk, then it won't work)
00:59:22 * oerjan vaguely assumes moon___ has never used a unix-alike system before.
00:59:31 * moon___ notes that oerjan is right
00:59:39 <b_jonas> I thought he's just never adminned one
00:59:50 <oerjan> which means this advice is probably a bit over his head
01:00:03 <oerjan> (it's pretty close to over mine, too)
01:00:32 <pikhq> b_jonas: This would be relatively normal experience to have as a *knowledgable* user of a typical Unix system.
01:00:33 <moon___> ill try just using a installation disk
01:00:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: well, learning unix by managing an installation at home and trying to fix stuff I break did work for me.
01:00:44 <fizzie> It's "mount -u -o rw /" on FreeBSD, I believe. But, I mean, I distinctly remember a stock FreeBSD installation having writable storage.
01:01:00 <pikhq> Though certainly not, say, an OS X system, or a slightly less knowledgable user of a Unix system.
01:01:50 <b_jonas> pikhq: dunno, the mount might be but the vi magic part probably isn't. some unixy people can live their lives without knowing much of vi
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01:02:41 <pikhq> Okay, yes, knowing vi in detail is mostly gonna be admins or certain serious programmers.
01:02:55 <fizzie> Classically, you need to know enough of vi to get out of it.
01:03:04 <HackEgo> vi is in a relationship with emacs.
01:03:28 <b_jonas> fizzie: my opinion is that you need to know enough of vi to modify some makefiles of another editor you compile
01:04:11 <pikhq> On systems people *actually use*, knowing nano exists is plenty.
01:04:32 <moon___> i just realized my system thinks it doesnt have mk, im worried it might not
01:04:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Confusion]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46924&oldid=46918 * H3LL * (+1)
01:04:51 <oerjan> moon___: mk is a HackEgo command we made ourselves.
01:05:16 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || { echo usage: "mk[x]" file//contents >&2; exit 1; }; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$(echo-p "$key")" && echo "$key"
01:05:23 <b_jonas> pikhq: maybe you also have to know what handful of configuration you have to set to make programs invoke your editor of choice as the default editor, because not everything respects $VISUAL or $EDITOR
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01:05:31 <oerjan> moon___: because we don't have proper terminal access for a normal editor.
01:05:55 <oerjan> moon___: do you have nano, as pikhq suggested?
01:06:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: we could implement a small stateful line editor though. probably something like the editors in basic or APL systems that don't renumber lines until you explicitly ask but let you insert lines between already existing ones.
01:07:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: we don't like too much state, it clutters up the repository history
01:08:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah... isn't there a stateful directory (or other state) that's not versioned though, so we use that?
01:08:18 <b_jonas> Not even as an accidental feature or bug?
01:08:33 <b_jonas> moon___: what are you hoping to edit with vim anyway if your file systems are read-only?
01:09:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm... note to self, find some such bug
01:09:39 <fizzie> It would likely involve a bug in the uml sandbox.
01:10:48 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't think it needs to. those sandboxes aren't really built to be completely deterministic, so we can use some side-channel to store state.
01:10:50 <moon___> im going to use ee to learn
01:11:48 <fizzie> b_jonas: Each execution is a fresh boot of UML, and the only thing bound read-write from outside is the repository directory.
01:12:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, but I said side-channels. non-deterministic stuff.
01:12:26 <b_jonas> not actualy fs directories
01:12:41 <oerjan> moon___: btw you can always replace mk with echo '...' >filename , although you might need to escape 's inside
01:12:44 <fizzie> I'll believe that once I see it.
01:13:40 <b_jonas> there might not be a practically usable one of course
01:16:17 <fizzie> Having an easy-to-use stateful editor would also be a loss in the sense that editing files would be less of a puzzle game every time.
01:17:51 <HackEgo> sed -i "$1" "$(lastfiles)"
01:18:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access fetch: No such file or directory
01:18:15 <HackEgo> cat: bin/fetch: No such file or directory
01:18:21 <HackEgo> cat: fetch: No such file or directory
01:18:48 <oerjan> moon___: fetch is a builtin of HackEgo that's outside the sandbox precisely so it can access the web freely
01:19:12 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, it's a win-win because if I don't find such a state, then I can just say termbot is superior
01:19:21 <b_jonas> (for it has persistent state)
01:19:32 <b_jonas> (and it's not version controlled)
01:20:40 <oerjan> that does not sound superior hth
01:20:59 <moon___> what would be a good way to put a file (like ciol intepreter src) onto freebsd?
01:21:18 <oerjan> moon___: normally i'd suggest curl or wget but i don't know if those work inside your VM.
01:21:31 <moon___> mine is set up ith connection
01:21:34 <b_jonas> no no, first check if you can install from ports
01:22:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: ciol is his own esolang
01:22:37 * oerjan never used a VM so should shut up at this point
01:23:22 <oerjan> but there's probably a standard way to transfer files between inside and outside
01:23:39 <b_jonas> do we even know what kind of vm it is?
01:24:26 <b_jonas> also, it's never "a standard"
01:24:55 <oerjan> well standard for the VM
01:24:57 <b_jonas> there's probably multiple standard ways
01:25:39 <b_jonas> moon___: well, if it already has a network connection to the outside, then you can probably transfer the file through that
01:25:39 <oerjan> . o O ( wednesday, so two extra mezzacotta comics )
01:25:42 <tswett> shachaf: the heck is a comonoid? Is it... something where... nah, I'm stumped.
01:26:00 <shachaf> tswett: it's like a monoid but with the arrows reversed hth
01:26:09 <b_jonas> wait, we don't have an entry on this one?
01:26:29 <oerjan> tswett: this time shachaf speaks truth
01:26:32 <HackEgo> Comonads are just monads in the dual category.
01:26:52 <tswett> Is a comonoid in a category a monoid in the opposite category?
01:27:29 <oerjan> b_jonas: they're uninteresting in haskell because _every_ type is a comonoid with the operations \x -> () and \x -> (x,x) (iirc)
01:27:59 <shachaf> oerjan: For (,)-comonoids, yes.
01:28:10 <shachaf> You can also talk about comonoids with Either, I guess.
01:28:20 <oerjan> are those interesting?
01:28:36 <shachaf> You have counit : M -> Void and comult : M -> Either M M
01:28:38 <moon___> hat does pkg mean when 'Error fetching <blah>: no package record?
01:28:46 <shachaf> So only Void is an instance.
01:29:16 <shachaf> You can also talk about monoids with Either -- unit : Void -> A and mult : Either A A -> A -- and those are also uninteresting.
01:29:28 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, just because there's one definition that works, there might also be more interesting instances you can define.
01:29:58 <shachaf> On the other hand, if you're talking about monoids in the category of endofunctors you get all sorts of interesting options.
01:30:12 <shachaf> You can get Applicative, Alternative, and Monad.
01:30:31 <shachaf> Yes, you can get it two different ways.
01:30:51 <shachaf> The simpler one is with (:*:).
01:31:14 <shachaf> unit : Proxy ~> F; mult : (F :*: F) ~> F
01:31:16 <oerjan> is there a category of monoid concepts in the category of endofunctors, and does it have initial and final elements
01:31:49 <oerjan> those options you mention
01:32:20 <shachaf> Well, the "options" here are choices of tensor products for the category of endofunctors, I guess.
01:32:32 <moon___> what does pkg mean when 'Error fetching <blah>: no package record'?
01:32:41 <moon___> im trying to have it install itself
01:32:48 <moon___> it doesnt come preinstalled
01:32:59 <shachaf> I'm not sure what a morphism from one choice of tensor product to another is?
01:33:36 <shachaf> I guess a tensor product is a bifunctor : CxC -> C
01:33:40 <b_jonas> shachaf: the category is defined in the natural way hth
01:33:43 <shachaf> So you can talk about natural transformations between them.
01:34:05 <shachaf> b_jonas: so what's the answer twh
01:34:31 <shachaf> fizzie: can we have a graph of the rise of hth along with its friends twh tdh tdnh etc. twh
01:35:03 <oerjan> shachaf: you'd imagine the Applicative => Monad relationship to give an arrow somewhere?
01:35:41 <shachaf> Also the category is probably more complicated because you have the identity and the isomorphisms.
01:38:10 <oerjan> (i've just been thinking about the awkward fact that Expr stuff needs too much type annotation)
01:39:01 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show t0) arising from a use of ‘f’
01:39:01 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
01:39:01 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
01:39:29 <oerjan> :t \g -> f (g x) :: Expr
01:40:14 <oerjan> hm lambdabot doesn't do ExtendedDefaulting?
01:40:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show t0) arising from a use of ‘f’
01:40:54 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
01:40:54 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
01:41:02 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Show t0) arising from a use of ‘f’
01:41:02 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: FromExpr t => t
01:44:32 <tswett> So I got to thinking today—using pretty much only just existing software, how could you make a Linux distribution which contains the smallest possible number of non-.NET components?
01:45:14 <tswett> Let's say that in order to be considered a "Linux distribution", it has to be capable of compiling itself, and it also has to be minimally usable.
01:45:56 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:45:56 <tswett> By definition, the distro will have to include Linux. If I'm not mistaken, GCC is also mandatory, because nothing besides GCC can compile Linux.
01:46:18 <tswett> Without binutils, you're in a pretty bad spot.
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01:46:31 <tswett> I think technically you could add Busybox and call it done.
01:46:53 <tswett> But that's not an answer that's in the spirit of the question.
01:47:08 <tswett> So, add in Mono as well.
01:47:26 <oerjan> @ask int-e Would anything important go wrong if you added Expr to the end of lambdabot's default list? (i can think of one thing: expressions confusing Integrals and Fractionals might inexplicably start giving Exprs instead of errors.)
01:47:27 <b_jonas> tswett: you also need a libc besides the busybox
01:47:46 <tswett> Oh yeah, libc is pretty important.
01:47:52 <b_jonas> tswett: as well as a make, a couple of libraries for gcc, and some shell utilities to make the kernel build work
01:48:10 <tswett> Do you really need make at all?
01:49:01 <b_jonas> tswett: for compiling the kernel, sure, it's driven by makefiles
01:49:22 <tswett> So either use make, or replace all the makefiles with something else.
01:49:24 <b_jonas> oh, and you need libc headers too, to be able to compiler gcc
01:49:41 <tswett> You could use fsharpi as a shell.
01:49:52 <tswett> It would make a pretty crappy standard Linux shell.
01:50:04 <b_jonas> tswett: what you could do is to not include gcc directly, but instead include a smaller compiler and use that to compile a gcc
01:50:07 <moon___> freebsd is causing problems, wont let me run files
01:50:37 <b_jonas> although with recent gcc versions that's pretty difficult because you actually need a c++ compiler, and there's not many working ones other than gcc and clang
01:50:54 <moon___> i need to run rc but i cant
01:50:59 <b_jonas> moon___: um, be more specific please
01:51:21 <tswett> Sounds like you might need to chmod +x the file you're trying to run.
01:51:26 <b_jonas> tswett: you need a _real_ shell and a couple of utils to run those makefiles
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01:52:00 <tswett> So the minimal self-compiling Linux distro actually includes, like, several components.
01:52:49 <b_jonas> tswett: sure. and in a real distro, you'd also need an init and a modutils, though if you ONLY want to self-compile, not do anything else, you can probably omit them
01:53:14 <tswett> Surely init could be written in .NET.
01:53:39 <tswett> ln -s fsharpi /bin/init
01:53:41 <b_jonas> tswett: ugh... no. and traditional init is a small program, so you don't have to.
01:53:58 <b_jonas> it's easier to just have an init
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01:54:35 <b_jonas> tswett: the biggest problem isn't even gcc
01:54:47 <b_jonas> tswett: in "self-compiling", do you mean also compiling libc?
01:55:04 <b_jonas> because compiling libc is pretty much impossible (this is a known bug or known feature, depending on who you ask)
01:55:24 <b_jonas> so you can't really have a completely self-compiling linux distro with gnu libc at all
01:55:37 <b_jonas> you'll need to use an alternate libc, and that makes a lot of things harder
01:55:47 <tswett> glibc is nearly impossible to compile?
01:56:06 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, or it was last I checked, some years ago. there's even a bug ticket about it which says so.
01:56:31 <b_jonas> tswett: have you ever compiled one? I did, but that was a decade ago, so I know it's *changed* to become impossible to compile at some point.
01:56:39 <b_jonas> It's not just that I'm stupid and that's why I can't compile it.
01:57:26 <b_jonas> More like 15 years ago actually. How time flies.
02:00:43 <b_jonas> But failing to build libc was also a long time ago, so eventually I should try building libc again, because it's annoying that I can't. I know libc has changed a lot since I failed to build it.
02:01:14 <moon___> i dont get rc.conf at all, and i cant enable networking *sigh*
02:01:29 <b_jonas> I should probably try to build it around the time I try contact lenses the third time, for the situation is somewhat analogous, with me, contact lenses, and libc all changing a lot during the yeras.
02:07:31 <tswett> > last (takeWhile (> 0)) (iterate (/ 2) 1)
02:07:32 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[[Double] -> t]’
02:07:32 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[Integer] -> [Integer]’
02:07:32 <lambdabot> Probable cause: ‘takeWhile’ is applied to too few arguments
02:07:47 <tswett> > last (takeWhile (> 0) (iterate (/ 2) 1))
02:14:26 <moon___> oh well, im going to have to go to my ip configuration to make address space for freebsd
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02:29:28 -!- moon___ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:31:54 <oerjan> `` echo -e 'foo\nbar\rPRIVMSG #esoteric :hi\r\n' #just double checking fizzie's claim
02:33:00 <oerjan> maybe it fails because it doesn't output \r\n, only \r
02:37:34 <oerjan> `` echo -e 'foo\nbar\rQUIT'
02:42:12 <oerjan> > length (takeWhile (> 0) (iterate (/ 2) 1))
02:42:31 <tswett> > subtract 1 . last . takeWhile (> 1) . map (+1) . iterate (/ 2) $ 1
02:43:09 <tswett> > (1 + 2.220446049250313e-16, 1 + 2.220446049250313e-16 / 2, 1 + 2.220446049250313e-16 / 3, 1 + 2 * 2.220446049250313e-16 / 3)
02:43:11 <lambdabot> (1.0000000000000002,1.0,1.0,1.0000000000000002)
02:43:33 <tswett> What rounding rule is this thing using?
02:50:26 -!- Moon__ has joined.
02:54:24 <tswett> > (2 * 5.0e-324) * 1.5
02:54:45 <tswett> Whoops, that's the wrong one.
02:54:48 <tswett> > (2 * 5.0e-324) * 0.75
02:55:30 <oerjan> tswett: well calculations are IEEE, not sure about output.
02:55:42 <tswett> Well, the rounding rule can't be "ties go towards zero", then.
02:56:35 <tswett> By the way, I propose that 2.220446049250313e-16 be called a "grain" and that 5.0e-324 be called a "speck".
02:56:46 <tswett> That would probably make sense.
02:57:12 <tswett> > [1.0 - 1, 1.0000000000000001 - 1, 1.0000000000000002 - 1, 1.0000000000000003 - 1, 1.0000000000000004 - 1]
02:57:13 <lambdabot> [0.0,0.0,2.220446049250313e-16,2.220446049250313e-16,4.440892098500626e-16]
03:07:45 <tswett> So, about those groups with unsolvable word problems (i.e. undecidable equality).
03:08:02 <tswett> One of them is the group of (Collins 1986): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_problem_for_groups#Examples
03:08:16 <tswett> Which is somewhat complicated.
03:16:26 <tswett> I guess we probably don't have a better one.
03:16:35 <tswett> So, do I smell an esolang here?
03:20:29 <tswett> I think I do smell an esolang here.
03:20:52 <tswett> Take Collins' group there. Just come up with some notation for concisely expressing elements of the group, and that's the language itself.
03:21:05 <tswett> The semantics: you "run" a program by trying to reduce it to the identity word.
03:25:05 <tswett> Wait a minute, that group of Collins is pretty much just a hacked-up version of a semigroup by Céjtin.
03:26:02 <tswett> This variant of said semigroup is so simple that I can easily give an entire presentation for the whole thing in one IRC message:
03:26:51 <tswett> ac = ca; ad = da; bc = cb; bd = db; ce = eca; de = edb; cca = ccae
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03:31:12 <Moon__> `fetch http://pastebin.com/raw/BGTV9E93
03:31:15 <HackEgo> 2016-05-05 02:31:12 URL:http://pastebin.com/raw/BGTV9E93 [3761] -> "BGTV9E93" [1]
03:31:23 <Moon__> someone compile that as bin/ciol
03:32:16 <Moon__> im not too good with gcc, i leave that to my ide :p
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03:44:46 <pikhq> I'm here, but I'm not alive.
03:46:02 <Moon__> power =ful linux/unix like interface on your android'
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03:47:21 <Moon__> How do i tell a linux os to allow a file to be executed without chmod?
03:47:37 <Moon__> and in such a way i dont have to repeated that trick every time
03:48:08 <pikhq> You don't, really. If you want a file to be executable you have to use chmod on it first.
03:48:24 <oerjan> `` gcc -x c -o bin/ciol BGTV9E93 # oh well
03:49:04 <pikhq> Though, most things that generate executables will set things as executable for you.
03:49:23 <oerjan> pikhq: well there _is_ a way. it might not be a good idea...
03:49:23 <tswett> If you use NTFS as your root filesystem, won't that effectively make everything +x? (Note: this is probably a very bad idea.)
03:49:39 <pikhq> NTFS is not usable as a root filesystem.
03:49:51 <pikhq> At least, not on Linux with current NTFS implementations.
03:50:18 <pikhq> As I understand it, in principle you could implement a Unix system with NTFS as the root FS, but you couldn't use ntfs-3g for it.
03:50:40 <pikhq> Because it does little tricks like making everything +x.
03:52:03 <coppro> pikhq: http://www.tuxera.com/community/ntfs-3g-faq/#rootfs
03:52:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/mk
03:52:07 <tswett> NTFS probably doesn't let you make a filename containing nearly arbitrary bytes.
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03:52:16 <tswett> Does NTFS let you have a backslash in the name of a file?
03:52:47 <pikhq> Shockingly, it does.
03:52:53 <pikhq> It's Win32 that doesn't.
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03:53:41 <tswett> I am in fact surprised by this.
03:54:00 <tswett> How about a forward slash?
03:54:20 <pikhq> I don't think it does.
03:54:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/echo-p
03:55:00 <pikhq> But, it doesn't matter for purposes of implementing POSIX. POSIX doesn't require you to be able to store arbitrary bytes in a filename.
03:55:36 <pikhq> http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/basedefs/V1_chap03.html#tag_03_278 Just [A-Za-z0-9._-]*
03:57:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/echo-p%3Ap
03:57:55 <Moon__-> something familiar and good for usage inside shellscript
03:58:19 <oerjan> Moon__-: note that mk in shell will behave like `` mk does in HackEgo, not like `mk
03:58:31 <oerjan> so it's a little more awkward to use
03:59:05 <oerjan> as long as you don't need 's inside it...
03:59:36 <oerjan> Moon__-: you probably want mkx too, then
03:59:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/mk
03:59:54 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/mkx
04:00:28 <tswett> Apparently filenames in Windows can't end with a dot or space.
04:00:33 <oerjan> HackEgo: your utilities are spreading!
04:01:22 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
04:02:28 <Moon__-> Hackegos utilities are amazing :P
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04:06:12 <Moon__-> `mkx mkcmd//'key=$@ && echo "$key" && chmod+x "$key"'
04:06:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `mv: not found
04:07:33 <oerjan> Moon__-: that's buggy, also how is it better than `` chmod +x
04:07:37 <Moon__-> mkcmd Would be good for external files'
04:09:09 <oerjan> `mkx bin/mkcmd//chmod +x "$1" && echo "$1"
04:10:05 <oerjan> you don't need to make a variable just to refer to an argument, also there were two errors, and i think putting the echo last gives better error messages
04:10:13 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `fnord': No such file or directory
04:10:25 <oerjan> (by not also doing the echo)
04:18:01 <oerjan> several people made implementations.
04:25:51 <Cale> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725 Adam Yedidia has explicitly constructed a Turing machine with 7918 states whose halting is independent of ZFC set theory.
04:33:05 <Moon__-> porting mk over to it made things easier for me
04:41:47 <oerjan> Cale: already linked, currently reading
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05:18:22 <shachaf> oerjan is going to rise from the dead p. soon, though
05:19:38 <Moon-> Shachaf, what would be a safe command identifier for a new bot?
05:21:49 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
05:21:58 <oerjan> technically ~ is taken
05:22:21 <lambdabot> ENVA 050350Z 09004KT CAVOK 05/M00 Q1021 RMK WIND 670FT 14008KT
05:22:25 <lambdabot> KOAK 050353Z 25009KT 10SM FEW019 FEW100 BKN180 16/10 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP118 T01560100
05:23:09 <oerjan> i suppose that's not in use
05:23:26 <oerjan> although it might be in danger of being used by humans
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05:24:30 <oerjan> ( if you don't think triggering bots accidentally is annoying, go ahead )
05:24:31 <idris-bot> (input):1:60: error: expected: "#",
05:25:07 <shachaf> to be fair, bots that respond with more than one line of output like that are annoying in themselves
05:25:46 <shachaf> lambdabot: this means you hth
05:26:55 <zgrep> shachaf: At least it stopped itself at 5.
05:27:38 <oerjan> Moon-: EgoBot isn't present at the moment.
05:28:06 <oerjan> hm gregor isn't even online now
05:28:24 <shachaf> apparently oerjan has a thing about presents
05:29:23 <oerjan> yes. also my priority queue more resembles a stack.
05:29:45 <shachaf> well, i'm not objecting to the timing
05:29:59 <shachaf> just saying that you were unhappy at one time
05:30:11 <shachaf> or maybe obligated to act unhappy, it's not clear
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05:30:29 <shachaf> going to a talk by wadler tomorrow
05:30:40 <scriptobot> Moon- is 4c014a81@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.74.129
05:30:50 <shachaf> scriptobot: and who are you?
05:30:57 <oerjan> shachaf: make sure to criticize his lexical comment syntax
05:31:12 <shachaf> Moon-: the joke was that i started my sentence with "and" hth
05:32:00 <oerjan> for want of a nail, the joke was lost
05:33:52 <shachaf> for want of a nale, the sabine was lost
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05:35:36 <shachaf> so how often do they hold the elections for king of norway
05:36:12 <scriptobot> Moon- is 4c014a81@gateway/web/freenode/ip.76.1.74.129
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05:57:09 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not sure if there's ever been one hth
05:57:31 <shachaf> how's the current one doing in the polls
05:57:39 <oerjan> and i don't think so. the current king is like ridiculously hard-working.
05:57:57 <shachaf> sounds like a good contrast
05:58:07 <shachaf> you can't be like him if you want to defeat him
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05:59:49 <Moon-> what would be a good way to set up a shell bot?
06:01:46 <oerjan> even Gregor's bots have security flaws.
06:02:00 <oerjan> although mostly because he's never around to fix them.
06:02:14 <oerjan> (Gregor being HackEgo's writer)
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07:11:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shootamaninreno: not found
07:26:30 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
07:26:41 <HackEgo> hppavilion is the generator including, but not limited to, hppavilion[1], hppavilion[2], and hppavilion[42]. hppavilion is of length 37-42i-28j+4k-28ij+38ik+62jk+20ijk
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07:49:25 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, what's-her-name's ring of water breathing protects against the cold
07:49:32 <shachaf> oerjan: so now she's going to freeze to death or something?
07:50:18 <oerjan> shachaf: i thought of that. hopefully they can switch quickly enough.
07:50:58 <shachaf> i guess she could also take the cloak
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09:21:34 <fizzie> shachaf: I honestly thought both of thems were dudes for this whole time.
09:22:06 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, fizzolist?
09:22:23 <fizzie> Sure, except I use the feed.
09:22:41 <shachaf> if you use the feed how come you never notify the rest of us
09:22:50 <fizzie> I think I've done it twice.
09:23:42 <fizzie> No, three (3) times, for 956, 958 and 960.
09:24:44 <fizzie> I usually read these things in the train, and it's inconvenient to come here and `olist, and by the time I'm wherever I'm going, I've already forgotten.
09:25:23 <shachaf> Train IRC is inconvenient?
09:25:27 <oerjan> shachaf: it seems that sorear has been programming a more direct logic search in that Laconic language
09:26:19 <oerjan> he's posting comments about it on aaronson's blog
09:26:25 <Cale> cool, so we might get even smaller state counts :D
09:26:49 <shachaf> I wonder why he scrapped IRC. If he did.
09:27:20 <oerjan> well i haven't seen them give a count of the states yet. (his version used nullary functions which aren't supported by the Laconic -> TM compiler)
09:27:55 * oerjan wouldn't know since he scrapped #haskell >:/
09:29:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: and also probably has lots of bugs
09:30:13 <oerjan> b_jonas: yeah he mentioned some bugs. i'm only on comment #57.
09:30:23 <oerjan> (that thread grew fast)
09:36:34 <oerjan> next comment mentions unlambda and brainfuck
09:57:31 <oerjan> "If this indeed works, then Adam predicts that it will indeed lead to a TM with fewer states than what you get from Friedman’s statement — he says your program is about as complicated as his program for the Riemann hypothesis, which suggests that we might get under 6000 states."
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10:07:08 <b_jonas> oerjan: one problem with these sorts of programs is that they're hard to debug
10:07:44 <b_jonas> you have to add lots of debug code (in the program definitely, possibly also into the compiler too) to check that the program behaves like you want
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11:50:27 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 14h 19m 11s ago: <hppavilion[1]> F24DBA5FB0A30E26E83B2AC5B9E29E1B161E5C1FA7425E73043362938B9824chaf <-- beat THAT!
11:51:37 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] you deserve a mapole thwack for that outrageous pun hth
11:51:51 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] (pretty creative, though)
11:54:41 <int-e> it's too long for sha1, too short for sha256...
11:56:25 <int-e> and google hasn't seen that hex number either
11:58:35 <boily> int-ello. maybe it's SHA-224?
12:00:18 <boily> @ask hppavilion[1] which was the actual hash you hashachafed shachaf with?
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12:17:13 <int-e> boily: it would have to be sha-248
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12:25:10 <fizzie> It was alleged to be SHA-256.
12:25:18 <fizzie> Maybe a byte got lost.
12:25:42 <fizzie> Or maybe it's behind the chaf.
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12:35:06 <int-e> or inside... it's 3/4 hexadecimal after all
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13:33:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Occular * New user account
13:47:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46925 * Occular * (+926) Created page with "[[Nullary]] is a [[No-code]] esolang created by [[occular]]. == History == The language was conceived in May 2016, as a possible answer to the question "What would be next s..."
13:47:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46926&oldid=46925 * Occular * (+0)
13:48:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46927&oldid=46926 * Occular * (+4)
13:48:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46928&oldid=46927 * Occular * (+8)
13:49:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46929&oldid=46928 * Occular * (-24)
13:50:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[No-code esolang]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46930 * Occular * (+113) Created page with "A no-code esolang either ignores or actively refuses any sort of input to the language interpreter or executable."
13:50:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[No-code esolang]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46931&oldid=46930 * Occular * (+5)
13:52:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46932&oldid=46832 * Occular * (+111)
13:55:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46933&oldid=46932 * Occular * (+82)
13:55:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46934 * Occular * (+129) Created page with "== Description == What, you don't already know about the definition of Hipster? Get out of here. You're a joke. Get off my lawn."
13:56:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46935&oldid=46934 * Occular * (+39)
13:57:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46936&oldid=46935 * Occular * (-8)
13:59:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46937&oldid=46936 * Occular * (+4)
14:00:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hipster]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46938&oldid=46937 * Occular * (+42)
14:01:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46939&oldid=46929 * Occular * (+27)
14:02:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46940&oldid=46939 * Occular * (+1)
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14:04:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46941&oldid=46940 * Occular * (+217)
14:06:32 * coppro requests an invitation to use IBM's quantum computer
14:06:41 <coppro> probably should have name-dropped IQC, actually
14:22:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46942&oldid=46933 * Occular * (+106)
14:27:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46943 * Occular * (+1455) Created page with "Shatner is an [[esolang]] created by [[occular]]. == History == The language was conceived in May 2016, as a possible answer to the question "How could I embody the spirit o..."
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14:38:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46944&oldid=46943 * Occular * (+36)
14:38:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46945&oldid=46944 * Occular * (+1)
14:39:23 <ais523> new record for the smallest program whose halting problem is provably undecidable under ZFC (it's a Turing machine with 7918 states and two symbols, that starts from a blank tape)
14:39:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46946&oldid=46945 * Occular * (+49)
14:43:13 <ais523> (source: http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2725)
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14:55:55 <lambdabot> Busy Beaver problem: a(n) = maximal number of steps that an n-state Turing m...
14:56:24 <ais523> (the joke is that the fifth element isn't known; all we have is a lower bound, which is 47176870
14:57:54 <ais523> interestingly, the sequence appears to be unique in OEIS despite being only four elements long
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15:04:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Occular]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46947 * Occular * (+84) Created page with "Occular designed the following languages: * [[Nullary]] * [[Shatner]] * [[Hipster]]"
15:04:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Occular]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46948&oldid=46947 * Occular * (-2)
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15:27:20 <b_jonas> ais523: and yes, we were talking about that new Busy Beaver article on the channel. I think you're the third who brought it up independently.
15:27:34 <b_jonas> ais523: I guessed you'd be interested
15:27:36 <ais523> well it is clearly ontopic
15:27:48 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, I already added one of the languages used to the wiki
15:27:50 <ais523> given that it mentions brainfuck and lambda independently, also me
15:28:10 <ais523> the comments have sort-of collapsed into Turing Machine golf
15:28:58 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but I'm a bit afraid they'll all just write untested code and not bother to properly test that it works. testing in this case isn't easy, it needs lots of extra debug code in the source code, and possibly some debug stuff in the compiler or interpreter.
15:29:31 <ais523> at least with a goldbach conjecture counterexample search, which most of the golfing is focusing on
15:29:36 <ais523> it's relatively easy to check whether it's working by hand
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16:38:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shatner]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46949&oldid=46946 * Occular * (+5)
16:38:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Occular]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46950&oldid=46948 * Occular * (-82) Blanked the page
16:39:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Occular]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=46951 * Occular * (+82) Created page with "AlexH designed the following languages: * [[Nullary]] * [[Shatner]] * [[Hipster]]"
16:39:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nullary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=46952&oldid=46941 * Occular * (+5)
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18:07:55 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Huh. cpressy favourited the repo with that language (laconic, iirc) in it
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18:52:16 <\oren\> why is c++ string missing search and replace?
18:52:41 <ais523> \oren\: because it's hard to implement efficiently
18:53:09 <ais523> and C and C++ tend to avoid making expensive operations easy to use, so as to prevent people using them by mistake
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18:55:04 <\oren\> well thats partially why my company has its own string and array classes
18:56:26 <\oren\> poor standard libraries hinder interoperability by encouraging nih
18:58:47 <\oren\> now we have to write conversions between n different string classes
19:00:02 <ais523> so why can't you write a search and replace /function/ that operates on std::strings?
19:00:08 <ais523> rather than needing it to be a message?
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19:03:27 <\oren\> not sure but i think the string class we have is also unicode aware and threadsafe...
19:03:36 <ais523> unicode aware makes sense
19:03:54 <ais523> threadsafe may or may not make sense depending on what you're doing, general-purpose threadsafety comes at quite a large performance cost
19:09:04 <\oren\> i wonder if the fact we compile everythong as c++ 98 has anything to do with it
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19:18:45 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 27m 7s ago: you deserve a mapole thwack for that outrageous pun hth
19:18:45 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 26m 53s ago: (pretty creative, though)
19:18:45 <lambdabot> boily asked 7h 18m 27s ago: which was the actual hash you hashachafed shachaf with?
19:26:22 <hppavilion[1]> An image-based language where lossy compression doesn't completely ruin the program
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19:46:11 <mtve> plz allow me a bit of promotion - http://conwaylife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=576&p=30646#p30646
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20:23:14 <notfowl> ais523: you want to scrutinize fowltalk? Tell me about how feather is way better etc https://bitbucket.org/fowlmouth/idk
20:24:18 <ais523> I can't relaly figure out what's going on from code if it's spread over that many files
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20:56:56 <ais523> notfowl: I still can't figure out what's going on, but it at least doesn't look anything like Feather
20:57:11 <ais523> in general, that project isn't in a state that you can really show to other people yet
20:58:59 <notfowl> I haven't written any docs and comments are equally sparse yes
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21:28:25 <hppavilion[1]> One of the things that disappoints me in code golf is that all challenges are simple; I'd like to see codegolf with a challenge for a BIG thing, the kind of program that can't be in <100 characters in any modern languages
21:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> Then we'd have people making GolfScript extensions with GUI and such
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21:35:25 <pikhq> I've done HTTP as a one-liner in bash, so... :)
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21:55:22 <pikhq> I think about 100 bytes; I'd have to find it to be sure though.
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22:27:08 <ais523> most of these Internet standards are qutie simple
22:27:29 <ais523> so HTTP as a bash oneliner is reasonable, it'd basically just be a case of parsing the URL and fitting it into a minimal request template, wouldn't it?
22:27:48 <ais523> trying to handle things like redirects correctly (which would be needed to be spec-compliant) would probably make it somewhat longer though
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23:06:32 <\oren\> the next version of neoletters will include non breaking snake characters
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23:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> What is the most complicated, bloated machine we could make
23:15:45 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Good, I asked you if you were going to do that
23:16:00 <hppavilion[1]> That we can still get away with calling a "Calculator"
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23:20:22 <idolbot> moon_: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
23:20:35 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: Everybody can make their IRC bots work but me xD
23:20:40 <moon_> ill set it up in the backround
23:20:41 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "hi" is not a valid command.
23:20:45 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "test" is not a valid command.
23:20:54 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "kill" is not a valid command.
23:20:57 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "hi" is not a valid command.
23:21:03 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: Error: "crush" is not a valid command.
23:21:05 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "commands" is not a valid command.
23:21:07 <idolbot> hppavilion[1]: You've given me 5 invalid commands within the last minute; I'm now ignoring you for 10 minutes.
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23:21:09 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "command" is not a valid command.
23:21:36 <moon_> i didnt write the whole thing :P
23:21:42 <hppavilion[1]> moon_: Did you make idolbot, or is it something from GitH- Ah, OK
23:21:45 <moon_> i never added that one
23:22:29 <moon_> its github, i wrote in some code to patch some problems
23:22:36 <moon_> im too lazy to make one myself
23:22:40 <moon_> im working on it still
23:24:25 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "unignore" is not a valid command.
23:24:36 <moon_> ill edit out the ignore thing
23:24:51 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "exit" is not a valid command.
23:24:56 <idolbot> moon_: Error: "end" is not a valid command.
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23:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> Shift, Control, Alt, Super, Mega, Ultima, Uber, Meta, Escape, AltGr, F[1-9a-fA-F], Fn, Hm...
23:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> Imagine a computer where the keyboard literally translated to ASM instructions at runtime...
23:34:22 <ais523> now I want to know what sort of keyboard has an Ultima modifier
23:35:31 <moon_> also, hppa, im basically using this bot as a framework to build a good one off of
23:36:43 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: In this, key (combinations) would literally map directly to short ASM macro blocks
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23:37:38 <hppavilion[1]> (ctrl, alt, fn, shift, and the arrow keys map to a second byte that modifies the first byte)
23:38:01 <Phantom_Hoover> (starting with why you think assembly is ever executed by anything)
23:38:16 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Well obviously, it wouldn't be executing assembly
23:38:20 <moon_> first off, brainfuck interpreter
23:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: But I'm talking from the programmer POV
23:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Well, the OS, on boot, generates a table in RAM that holds pointers to short executables
23:39:09 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yeah, that wasn't the best phrasing
23:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: "macro" as in keyboard macro, I guess
23:39:27 <ais523> what about just having alt/meta toggle bit 7, ctrl toggle bit 6, shift toggle bit 5
23:39:44 <ais523> I like this approach because it is temptingly similar to the way ASCII actually works, yet different enough to throw you if you try to use it in practice
23:39:49 <Phantom_Hoover> so a system where code is executed in response to user input?
23:39:50 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Because there are more than 64 keys, IIRC?
23:40:03 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: right, there are some duplicates if you use that system
23:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: You hit a key and it directly executes a program
23:40:14 <ais523> however you will also need keys for triggering inputs and the like
23:40:32 <Phantom_Hoover> lik ais523 is probably trying to explain, you can't actually do that
23:40:56 <Phantom_Hoover> you need pretty sophisticated code to actually read from the keyboard
23:41:11 <ais523> well if you're being really eso
23:41:21 <ais523> suppose you have a CPU that can handle dc on the clock line
23:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I know firsthand how much of a PITA keyboard input is
23:41:26 <ais523> (most modern ones can't but there are ones that can)
23:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: This is specifically for an esoteric processor or emulator
23:41:43 <ais523> then you take the keyboard controller input, and intentionally misconnect it to the clock line rather than the interrupt controller
23:41:51 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well you could do the SNES code injection thing where you jump into a DMA input buffer
23:42:00 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: that was my first thought
23:42:03 <hppavilion[1]> And the best part is that it's a state machine; hitting "a" might update the jump table
23:42:04 <ais523> but manual clocking is funnier
23:42:06 <Phantom_Hoover> but obviously that doesn't work on any system that doesn't use DMA input buffers
23:42:28 <hppavilion[1]> (or, more accurately, change the pointer to the jump table)
23:42:47 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], it seems like it'd be very easy to just implement a non-eso system on top of this
23:43:01 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: But it'd also be easy to implement an eso system on top of it
23:43:28 <Phantom_Hoover> unwinding the way it does I/O has been, uh, interesting
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23:44:44 <ais523> huh, apparnetly underclocking is a thing
23:44:48 <ais523> just like overclocking is
23:44:51 <ais523> I went and looked it up
23:45:45 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, mostly used for badly-written old software that's tied to the clock speed, right?
23:45:49 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how many guesses it would take to guess which country Phantom_Hoover is from, with the knowledge that English is a native language for him
23:46:18 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: apparently it's mostly used for extending laptop battery life, and to reduce heat dissipation
23:46:41 <shachaf> ais523: What about me? I'm told that English is the first language I spoke.
23:47:45 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: so's yours hth
23:48:14 <ais523> in how many countries is "hoover" the standard name for a vacuum cleaner?
23:48:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:48:29 <shachaf> I've never heard it used in this country.
23:48:48 <shachaf> That's the one I'm talking about. Never heard it.
23:49:05 <cripotos> in europe the synoym of vacuum cleaner is dyson
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23:49:27 <ais523> hmm, so this website tried to run a 1 GHz CPU at 100 MHz and it failed, but 600 MHz succeeded
23:49:48 <ais523> this disappoints the electronic engineer in me
23:49:56 <Phantom_Hoover> despite dyson only entering the vacuum cleaner market in the 90s
23:50:01 <ais523> I'm guessing it's somehow related to DRAM/capacitors
23:50:10 <Phantom_Hoover> cripotos, are you trolling or are you actually this dense
23:50:43 <Phantom_Hoover> would you described yourself as locked or unlocked from the matrix of solidity
23:50:52 <int-e> `willkommen cripotos
23:50:55 <HackEgo> cripotos: Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf EFnet oder DALnet.)
23:51:20 <cripotos> i beliebe in the theories of rudolf steiner
23:51:52 <ais523> what interesting properties do matrices of imaginary numbers have?
23:52:18 <int-e> "At the beginning of the twentieth century, he founded an esoteric spiritual movement, anthroposophy..."
23:52:21 <ais523> not being closed under multiplication is something of a dealbreaker
23:52:24 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it can be hard to tell
23:52:29 <int-e> cripotos: you have the wrong channel.
23:52:44 <ais523> there aren't many other sorts of imaginary numbers
23:53:37 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well you sort of assume people actually mean 'complex' because the pure imaginaries are quite pointless
23:53:52 <Phantom_Hoover> cripotos, well did you ever read anything by michael jackson?
23:53:54 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: i haven't read anything by banks yet
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23:54:10 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: how could they be pointless when there's a whole line of them...
23:54:22 <shachaf> i've read some other books, though
23:54:29 <shachaf> and i still don't know which banks book to read
23:54:41 <shachaf> if you name one book i'll put it on my to-order list
23:55:00 <Phantom_Hoover> use of weapons second, and it's the best in the series
23:55:21 <Phantom_Hoover> cripotos, i'll only tell you if you divulge the methods by which you made the guess
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23:55:51 <cripotos> i search german speaking slumber mothersa
23:56:41 <ais523> well, I'm going to take a guess and say that cripotos is from Switzerland
23:56:53 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: what about consider phlebas
23:57:09 <Phantom_Hoover> consider phlebas is kind of weird and not representative of the series
23:57:20 <pikhq> I'm not European, personally.
23:57:21 <ais523> cripotos: actually no, I checked what timezone you were in and geolocated your IP
23:57:32 <ais523> trying to guess the city like that is fraught with confusion
23:57:37 <ais523> but you can make a good guess as to the country
23:58:39 <fungot> int-e: summer fun deal." ?utilities routinely, these " black-outs" occur around the world properties. la fragmentation and increase the price.
23:58:44 <ais523> seriously, though, this conversation is all well and good, but you're in the wrong channel and it's offtopic
23:59:04 <cripotos> who reach bis to the römerzeit
23:59:06 <ais523> so you're probably better off going to a more appropriate channel (we suggested some in the welcome message)
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