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00:02:16 <oerjan> <fizzie> For the fixed-position case, "(numb << K) >> K" is possibly the simplest thing to do, but only if you happen to have access to a >> that's reliably an arithmetic right shift. <-- what about (numb << K) / (1 << K) ?
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00:06:41 <HackEgo> cat: bin/weather: No such file or directory
00:07:10 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK
00:07:14 <lambdabot> CYUL 152200Z 31013G23KT 15SM BKN045 OVC100 07/M03 A2965 RMK SC5AC3 SLP043 \ ENVA 152250Z 33007KT 9999 BKN037 06/02 Q1016 RMK WIND 670FT 30007KT \ ESSB 152250Z AUTO 35017G29KT 9999 -DZ BKN013/// OVC015/// 07/04 Q1001 \ KOAK 152253Z 25015KT 10SM FEW020 FEW200 20/12 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP148 T02000122
00:07:14 * oerjan swats his brain -----###
00:08:06 <oerjan> `mkx bin/metar//echo lambdabot: @metar $1
00:08:20 <lambdabot> ENVA 152250Z 33007KT 9999 BKN037 06/02 Q1016 RMK WIND 670FT 30007KT
00:10:36 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> ITS HAILING WTFOMGBBQ <-- i am not sure this is ideal for BBQ but whatever floats your boat.
00:11:18 <shachaf> oerjan: you're probably thinking of a barbecue, i.e. bbc
00:13:49 * oerjan waves the swatter in shachaf's general direction and mumbles something about elderberries -----###
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00:19:30 <shachaf> oerjan: à la <http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3764>, i'm sure
00:20:57 <oerjan> `learn A manometer is a device for testing real men by putting them under pressure.
00:21:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'manometer': A manometer is a device for testing real men by putting them under pressure.
00:21:27 <oerjan> shachaf: APPROXIMATELY
00:35:12 <fizzie> oerjan: / truncates negative numbers to the wrong direction. Consider the case where (numb << K) == -1 -- then the result should be -1 as well, but it's 0 for any K > 0.
00:35:40 <oerjan> fizzie: but it can't be - it's always divisible by 2^K
00:39:17 <fizzie> Yeah, I guess that'll work. Although I wonder if compilers are going to be clever enough to realize that. (They quite often seem to implement division by 2^K by shifting + extra adjustments for the rounding.)
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00:40:30 <fizzie> Huh. At least clang did. Fancy stuff.
00:42:19 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/ffTA for the dirt.
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00:44:46 * oerjan downvotes a reddit post solely because the link started playing audio automatically.
00:44:48 <fizzie> (The latter is essentially "t = x << 6; if (t < 0) t += 63; return t >> 6;")
00:45:05 <oerjan> sadly, it already had thousands of upvotes.
00:55:46 <oerjan> `le//rn OS/2//OS/2 was an OS, too.
00:56:03 <HackEgo> /hackenv/le//rn: line 1: wisdom/os/2: Not a directory
00:56:47 <shachaf> please don't spamckego like that twh
00:56:53 * oerjan swats b_jonas for spamming while he's trying to debug -----###
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00:59:41 <oerjan> shachaf: i say it's still overloaded.
01:00:58 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
01:01:17 <oerjan> thought so. alas there cannot be both a file and a directory by the same name...
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02:36:56 <oerjan> b_jonas: sorry if i insulted you. it was meant as a joke.
02:37:25 <b_jonas> oerjan: I know. (I started a jevalbot instance to watch the channel, in case it wasn't obvious.)
02:38:03 <oerjan> oh. i didn't connect that.
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02:42:51 <b_jonas> `randomcard d.*(r.*(o.*m|m.*o)|o.*(r.*m|m.*r)|m.*(r.*o|o.*r)).*ka
02:42:58 <b_jonas> `random-card d.*(r.*(o.*m|m.*o)|o.*(r.*m|m.*r)|m.*(r.*o|o.*r)).*ka
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02:43:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: randomcard: not found
02:44:07 <HackEgo> Dromoka Captain \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Soldier \ 1/1 \ First strike \ Whenever Dromoka Captain attacks, bolster 1. (Choose a creature with the least toughness among creatures you control and put a +1/+1 counter on it.) \ DTK-U
02:44:14 <b_jonas> `random-card d.*(r.*(o.*m|m.*o)|o.*(r.*m|m.*r)|m.*(r.*o|o.*r)).*ka
02:44:37 <HackEgo> Dromoka Warrior \ 1W \ Creature -- Human Warrior \ 3/1 \ DTK-C
02:44:38 <HackEgo> Vampiric Fury \ 1R \ Instant \ Vampire creatures you control get +2/+0 and gain first strike until end of turn. \ ISD-C
02:45:05 <HackEgo> Lightkeeper of Emeria \ 3W \ Creature -- Angel \ 2/4 \ Multikicker {W} (You may pay an additional {W} any number of times as you cast this spell.) \ Flying \ When Lightkeeper of Emeria enters the battlefield, you gain 2 life for each time it was kicked. \ WWK-U, CMD-U
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03:26:08 <zzo38> What does "free ranging moons" means?
03:26:31 <shachaf> Left adjoint to forgetful ranging moons, presumably?
03:26:56 <zzo38> O, that's what it means. OK
03:36:00 <quintopia> more likely it means moons yanked from their orbits and turned into comets or dwarf planets or, even more free ranging, sent hurtling out into interstellar space
03:36:46 <zzo38> O, OK, but what is containing it anyways?
03:39:27 <zzo38> I was at Victoria today and also yesterday.
03:47:19 <shachaf> Were you ever in Bellingham?
03:48:21 <zzo38> (Possibly; I don't actually remember, but I do not think so)
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03:52:31 <shachaf> Were you ever in the United States?
03:53:53 <zzo38> Yes I was, but I do not know what name of places they are. The food is better in Canada though.
03:55:08 <shachaf> Are you sure it's not better in California?
03:56:48 <zzo38> I think I have been in California, and I think the food is better in Canada, even if it is the same restaurant chain.
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04:03:13 <zzo38> I forgot, but it is any of them I have tried.
04:04:24 <shachaf> Canada and California are very similar.
04:04:46 <zzo38> At least the first two letters (and also the last letter) is similar.
04:04:52 <shachaf> They both start with "ca" and in fact that's used as the standard abbreviaton.
04:04:53 <shachaf> They both have a place called Ontario.
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04:05:42 <zzo38> It is a different use for country code or state code though.
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04:37:06 <zzo38> Do not grow the grass by pulling it.
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06:17:21 <hppavilion[2]> Renku is just the Japanese version of Rap Battles, isn't it?
06:19:12 <HackEgo> danddreclist 78: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
06:19:48 <shachaf> lynn: should that file be adjusted hth
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06:40:40 <zzo38> I expect the next one would involve Drusila and Zeux Agem and so on.
06:47:17 <zzo38> What is this theorem called: If a category has at least two objects, and has n final objects, then the number of monads on that category is greater or equal to n+1.
06:58:18 <zzo38> :I was writing ideas for a specification of a new kind of computer I may make in future. One of the things is that the main processor and video processor both have exclusive access to video memory. There are also many others, including some hardware and software features I have seen nowhere before (although I have seen similar things).
07:00:10 <zzo38> I am writing it into the computer in the intention to be unpatentable. How exactly does this work anyways?
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07:12:52 <shachaf> zzo38: I don't think it has a name.
07:13:08 <shachaf> zzo38: Do people care about monads and terminal objects more than just up to isomorphism, anyway?
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07:15:23 <Cale> shachaf: hahaha, I can think of a weird case where it matters
07:16:57 <zzo38> Cale: What case do you think of?
07:19:05 <Cale> shachaf: Given a ring R and a small category C, you can define R[C] to be the free R-module whose basis is the set of arrows of C, and you can define a multiplication on it in a convolution-y way where you define the product of arrows which don't compose to be 0, and define it to be their composite when they do.
07:19:56 <Cale> and then if you take the indiscrete category on n objects, this is the ring of n-by-n matrices with coefficients in R
07:20:30 <Cale> So, you care about the distinction between your terminal objects in that case
07:21:13 <Cale> If it's the discrete category on n objects, this the same as R^n
07:21:39 <Cale> If it's the preorder category for the natural numbers, it's the polynomial ring R[x]
07:22:00 <shachaf> I've made a similar complaint about distinguishability for both indiscrete categories and indiscrete topologies.
07:22:43 <shachaf> The full subcategory of Top of discrete spaces is equivalent to Set. That makes sense, because discrete spaces behave like sets.
07:23:12 <shachaf> But the full subcategory of Top of indiscrete spaces is isomorphic to it. What's that all about?
07:23:31 <Cale> Well, any function between indiscrete spaces is continuous
07:23:50 <Cale> You're not taking equivalence classes of topologically indistinguishable maps
07:23:56 <shachaf> But it seems to me that an indiscrete space "ought" to behave in such a way that you can't distinguish its elements.
07:24:11 <shachaf> People talk about equivalence of categories rather than isomorphism of categories because of this issue.
07:24:25 <shachaf> Maybe I want the same thing for topological spaces.
07:24:44 <shachaf> Anyway you can make the same complaint about e.g. discrete/indiscrete categories, or discrete/indiscrete preorders.
07:24:56 <shachaf> Those are really all the same sort of thing.
07:26:54 <Cale> You can replace the arrows in Top with equivalence classes of arrows where if f and g are cts. maps X -> Y, then f ~ g whenever for all x in X, you have f(x) and g(x) are topologically indistinguishable in Y.
07:27:13 <Cale> I think that'll sort things out
07:27:40 <shachaf> Right. Does that category have a name? Why don't people use it instead of Top?
07:27:40 <Cale> Alternately, you can restrict Top to not have shitty topological spaces in it
07:28:09 <shachaf> Do homotopies relate to this? Since category equivalence is defined in terms of natural transformations.
07:28:14 <Cale> This is why people work with Hausdorff spaces instead
07:28:35 <shachaf> But lots of interesting spaces aren't Hausdorff.
07:28:56 <shachaf> Even the Sierpinski space isn't Hausdorff.
07:29:05 <shachaf> That space seems pretty fundamental to me.
07:29:13 <Cale> Where "lots", is "mostly Zariski topologies"
07:29:22 <Cale> and yeah, the computational synthetic topology stuff
07:30:19 <shachaf> Topology without the Sierpinski space seems like set theory without Bool.
07:30:22 <Cale> The Sierpinski space is usually more relevant as a counterexample for topologists, than as something which is used as the foundation to build more stuff.
07:30:36 <shachaf> But I'm probably not thinking about it from the typical topology perspective.
07:30:37 <Cale> At least, that's my impression
07:32:20 <Cale> Homotopy can't distinguish it from a point, so once you get to any of the algebraic topology stuff, it's not so relevant either.
07:33:09 <shachaf> Probably I should learn about algebraic topology.
07:35:17 <shachaf> Anyway what you said reminded me of a question I was asking the other day.
07:36:36 <shachaf> In convolution there are three operations, right? (f * g)(z) = \A_{i,j | b(i,j) = z}{ c(f(i)g(j)) }
07:37:18 <shachaf> So say A is integral, b is addition, c is multiplication.
07:37:40 <shachaf> People vary all three of those, don't they?
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07:37:50 <shachaf> Anyway, is there a case where c is something like composition in a category?
07:38:01 <Cale> I described that a moment ago
07:38:16 <shachaf> Well, you were just assigning 0 where the composition doesn't exist.
07:38:17 <Cale> That's... literally how we began this discussion
07:38:24 <shachaf> Well, I guess that has the same effect.
07:38:30 <Cale> yeah, and the composite otherwise :)
07:38:41 <Cale> It's basically just "avoid the things you can't compose"
07:39:05 <shachaf> OK, then you answered my question from last week, rather than just reminded me of it.
07:39:18 <shachaf> I'd rather say that you don't sum over those things in the first than that the sum is 0, but whatever.
07:39:27 <Cale> There's a different way to do it too
07:39:39 <shachaf> The other question I asked was what requirements people usually put on b.
07:39:53 -!- hppavilion[2] has set topic: The international hub of solid matrices | Contains only freely-mooned ranges | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | The overdone city meme has RISEN from its burial place in Truth or Consequences (not Hot Springs) in search of BRAINS.
07:40:17 <shachaf> Often people require it to be a group, which is way too much, of course (you don't need inverses).
07:40:34 <shachaf> But can it be a non-associative operation? I saw something that at least resembled a convolution with a non-associative operation.
07:40:35 <Cale> R[[C]] is similar, but we require C to be a small category with finite factorisation, i.e. for any f: A -> C, there exist finitely many pairs of arrows g: B -> C and h: A -> B such that f = g . h
07:40:55 <Cale> and then instead of just taking the free R-module on the arrows, we can take all functions Arr(C) -> R
07:40:56 -!- shachaf has set topic: The international hub of solidity matrices | Contains only freely-mooned ranges | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | http://esolangs.org/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
07:41:11 <Cale> and the convolution still works out because there are only finitely many ways to factor any given arrow
07:41:24 <Cale> So we can still take the sum
07:41:41 <Cale> This is a generalisation of Gian-Carlo Rota's incidence algebras
07:42:04 <Cale> (where you get incidence algebras when the category is a preorder category)
07:42:47 <Cale> and now if you take C to be the preorder category on the naturals, you get the power series ring R[[X]]
07:43:18 <shachaf> You mean the totally ordered preorder category?
07:43:34 <Cale> The preorder category for omega
07:43:49 <Cale> (first infinite ordinal)
07:45:09 <shachaf> Hmm, this incidence algebra convolution looks unusual.
07:45:45 <shachaf> (f * g)(a,b) = \Sum_{a ≤ x ≤ b} { f(a,x)g(x,b) }
07:47:02 <shachaf> When you do convolutions of two discrete sequences, you get something that operates over the antidiagonals, right?
07:53:49 <Cale> Yeah, if I understand what you mean correctly, you get something like polynomials
07:54:06 <Cale> or power series
07:54:40 <shachaf> I mean, say you have [a,b,c] [d,e,f]
07:55:07 <shachaf> You can make the multiplication table
07:55:21 <shachaf> And you have the antidiagonals [ad] [ae,bd] [af,be,cf] etc.
07:55:44 <shachaf> Is that something like polynomials?
07:55:45 <Cale> If you pick [a,b,c] = [d,e,f] = [0,1,2]
07:55:51 <Cale> and multiplication to be addition
07:56:37 <Cale> x^n * x^m = x^(n+m)
07:58:01 <shachaf> Someone was talking about the convolution where A is min and b/c are addition.
07:58:42 <Cale> sounds tropical
07:59:30 <Cale> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical_geometry
08:00:09 <shachaf> Anyway, if you pick b=(-), you get diagonals instead of antidiagonals.
08:01:33 <shachaf> Cale: That must be why the person who asked this question is going to Hawaii.
08:03:18 <shachaf> So is convolution with (-) still convolution? What properties should the three different operators satisfy?
08:03:20 <Cale> "The adjective tropical in this context was coined by French mathematicians in honor of the Hungarian-born Brazilian mathematician Imre Simon, who wrote on the field."
08:03:54 <shachaf> Presumably you want c to be associative, otherwise you'd end up with something strange.
08:05:38 <Cale> Well, perhaps we could compromise, and make it x^a x^b = (1/2) (x^(a-b) + x^(b-a))
08:05:47 <shachaf> Well, I was actually thinking about A when I said that, so that doesn't make sense anyway.
08:06:36 <shachaf> Day convolution also shows some extra structure that you don't see in typical convolution.
08:06:39 <Cale> (with the exponentiation being a little inappropriate now)
08:07:31 <shachaf> Where you have something like \(Co)End { f(x)g(y)Hom(xy,-) }
08:08:36 <Cale> Now, for all these wildly different kinds of convolution, we need a Fourier theory
08:09:20 <shachaf> That's one of those things I never learned much about that I really should.
08:11:37 <Cale> If f and g are integrable functions with Fourier transforms F and G respectively, and the convolution f * g is defined by (f * g)(x) = integral over R of f(t) g(x - t) dt
08:12:15 <Cale> Then the Fourier transform of f * g is given by the pointwise product F G
08:12:45 <Cale> i.e. the Fourier transform turns convolution into multiplication
08:13:00 <shachaf> Also the Dirac delta is apparently the identity for convolution. What does that mean in all these contexts?
08:14:02 <Cale> Well, that's because (f * delta)(x) = integral over R of f(t) delta(x-t) dt = f(x) pretty much by definition of Dirac delta.
08:14:46 <shachaf> I guess there's a better-behaved equivalent in discrete contexts.
08:15:31 <Cale> Oh, right, I missed your actual question
08:15:39 <Cale> which is what's the analogous thing in the other contexts
08:16:20 <Cale> Though, Dirac delta is even only a thing in the original context if you pretty much go out of your way to force it to be
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11:53:48 <lambdabot> CYUL 161000Z 27018G25KT 15SM FEW025 OVC050 03/M03 A2978 RMK SC2SC6 SLP087
11:53:52 <lambdabot> ENVA 161020Z 28005KT 9999 SCT043 09/01 Q1013 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 31004KT
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12:00:28 <lambdabot> EGLL 161050Z AUTO 26006KT 200V290 9999 BKN033 14/06 Q1021 NOSIG
12:10:31 <HackEgo> Kjeldoran Skyknight \ 2W \ Creature -- Human Knight \ 1/1 \ Flying; first strike; banding (Any creatures with banding, and up to one without, can attack in a band. Bands are blocked as a group. If any creatures with banding you control are blocking or being blocked by a creature, you divide that creature's combat damage, not its controller, among a
12:10:43 <HackEgo> Cephalid Inkshrouder \ 2U \ Creature -- Cephalid \ 2/1 \ Discard a card: Cephalid Inkshrouder gains shroud until end of turn and can't be blocked this turn. (A creature with shroud can't be the target of spells or abilities.) \ JUD-U
12:10:50 <b_jonas> why doesn't \Bshro match that?
12:11:25 <HackEgo> Skyshroud Sentinel \ 2G \ Creature -- Elf \ 1/1 \ When Skyshroud Sentinel enters the battlefield, you may search your library for up to three cards named Skyshroud Sentinel, reveal them, and put them into your hand. If you do, shuffle your library. \ NE-C
12:11:38 <HackEgo> Tuknir Deathlock \ RRGG \ Legendary Creature -- Human Wizard \ 2/2 \ Flying \ {R}{G}, {T}: Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. \ LE-R, ME3-U
12:11:41 <b_jonas> maybe it timed out or got killed or something
12:11:56 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand(@c)];' "$1"
12:13:12 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pe 's/( \$c[rand(\@c)])/($1||"No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:13:14 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand(@c)];' "$1"
12:13:38 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pe 's/( \$c\[rand(\@c)])/($1||"No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:13:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print $c[rand(@c)];' "$1"
12:13:48 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pe 's/( \$c\[rand\(\@c\)])/($1||"No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:13:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print( $c[rand(@c)]||"No card found.");' "$1"
12:13:57 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pe 's/ (\$c\[rand\(\@c\)])/($1||"No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:13:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec perl -e'open$I,"<","share/mtg/allsets.txt"or die$!;$/=""; @c=grep{/(?mi:$ARGV[0])/}<$I>; print($c[rand(@c)]||"No card found.");' "$1"
12:14:06 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pi e 's/ (\$c\[rand\(\@c\)])/($1 || "No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:14:08 <HackEgo> Can't open perl script "e": No such file or directory
12:14:13 <b_jonas> ``` perl -pi -e 's/ (\$c\[rand\(\@c\)])/($1 || "No card found.")/' bin/random-card
12:14:26 <HackEgo> Tuknir Deathlock \ RRGG \ Legendary Creature -- Human Wizard \ 2/2 \ Flying \ {R}{G}, {T}: Target creature gets +2/+2 until end of turn. \ LE-R, ME3-U
12:14:33 <HackEgo> Sekki, Seasons' Guide \ 5GGG \ Legendary Creature -- Spirit \ 0/0 \ Sekki, Seasons' Guide enters the battlefield with eight +1/+1 counters on it. \ If damage would be dealt to Sekki, prevent that damage, remove that many +1/+1 counters from Sekki, and put that many 1/1 colorless Spirit creature tokens onto the battlefield. \ Sacrifice eight Spirits
12:14:39 <HackEgo> Earthshaker \ 4RR \ Creature -- Spirit \ 4/5 \ Whenever you cast a Spirit or Arcane spell, Earthshaker deals 2 damage to each creature without flying. \ CHK-U
12:15:06 <b_jonas> now if it prints "No output." then something went wrong
12:15:33 <HackEgo> Lavastep Raider \ R \ Creature -- Goblin Warrior \ 1/2 \ {2}{R}: Lavastep Raider gets +2/+0 until end of turn. \ BFZ-C
12:15:46 <HackEgo> Lava Spike \ R \ Sorcery -- Arcane \ Lava Spike deals 3 damage to target player. \ CHK-C, MMA-C
12:15:54 <boily> `random-card spook
12:16:15 <boily> `random-card cuttlefish
12:18:52 <HackEgo> Stonehorn Chanter \ 5W \ Creature -- Rhino Cleric \ 4/4 \ {5}{W}: Stonehorn Chanter gains vigilance and lifelink until end of turn. (Attacking doesn't cause it to tap. Damage dealt by it also causes you to gain that much life.) \ M14-U
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13:39:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47040&oldid=46982 * M654 * (+16)
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13:54:22 <HackEgo> copumpkin//copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
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13:59:52 <int-e> president of anything at all?
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14:18:02 <Taneb> I don't think weed generally causes people to dance
14:19:04 * oerjan wouldn't know one way or the other
14:19:43 <HackEgo> 628) <itidus22> if the halting problem was solved, as a placebo.. would it benefit people?
14:19:45 <HackEgo> 729) <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics.
14:19:45 <HackEgo> 279) <oklopol> i actually do like sucking
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14:37:22 <oerjan> *sigh* heavy beats penetrating the building.
14:37:52 <oerjan> i expected a party today but had hoped it'd not get this bad this early.
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14:38:58 <oerjan> (it's 3:38 in the afternoon.)
14:40:26 <b_jonas> `? interactive toxic waste exhibit
14:40:27 <oerjan> just the beats, mind you. i cannot hear the actual _tunes_. the building only lets through the sounds it know i hate tdnh
14:40:30 <HackEgo> interactive toxic waste exhibit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:40:56 <oerjan> throw in some radioactivity.
14:40:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/comic?n=20070302 and following strip
14:42:30 <oerjan> do you have a full mirror
14:42:39 <oerjan> (clicking next worked)
14:42:55 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://russell2.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/comic/millie/index
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14:49:52 <HackEgo> ozy and millie? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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15:07:53 <int-e> oh I actually read that to the end...
15:09:20 <b_jonas> int-e: good. I like that comic strip.
15:09:31 <b_jonas> (I don't put up mirrors of just anything. O&M is great.)
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15:11:46 <b_jonas> The direct links to images on the original site from my mirror are broken though, because they changed the url. Let me try to fix that.
15:19:46 <b_jonas> I should also figure out what to do with the House Rules site, which has been down for a while. Let me check if some pages of it are on archive.org
15:22:03 <b_jonas> yup, https://web.archive.org/web/20120904022248/http://houserules.org.uk/index.php?page=archive&date=19980429
15:22:20 <b_jonas> I'll have to change the House Rules links to archive.org then
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15:30:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CUTLASS]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47041&oldid=37058 * 160.44.230.213 * (-11) Updated to reflect E.ON organisational changes.
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15:36:14 <oerjan> i heard fizzie emailed you
15:36:47 <alandipert> going to attempt transferring the domain to him
15:37:07 <oerjan> it's a delicate operation
15:37:23 <oerjan> i think he's idle at the moment.
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16:28:58 <b_jonas> In http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=1461 , Marten says to Faye and Hannelore “You to befriended me via bullying and stalking respectively.” I know Faye stalked Marten near the start of the comic, when Faye burned down her house them moved in with Marten then persuaded Marten to move to a larger place,
16:29:09 <b_jonas> but what's he trying to say about Marigold? I don't recall any of that.
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17:14:48 <HackEgo> Replenish \ 3W \ Sorcery \ Return all enchantment cards from your graveyard to the battlefield. (Auras with nothing to enchant remain in your graveyard.) \ UD-R
17:14:48 <HackEgo> Duplicant \ 6 \ Artifact Creature -- Shapeshifter \ 2/4 \ Imprint -- When Duplicant enters the battlefield, you may exile target nontoken creature. \ As long as a card exiled with Duplicant is a creature card, Duplicant has the power, toughness, and creature types of the last creature card exiled with Duplicant. It's still a Shapeshifter. \ MRD-R,
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17:32:07 <b_jonas> sadly, web.archive.org doesn't seem to have archived most of the Ozy and Millie House Rules strips
17:33:10 <b_jonas> has #1036 been olisted yet?
17:33:32 <shachaf> please see logs in the topic
17:33:41 <shachaf> but now i'm going to be double-pinged :'(
17:33:53 <HackEgo> olist 1036: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
17:34:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: sadly the logs don't seem to be up to date
17:34:17 <b_jonas> let me check the other logs
17:35:27 <b_jonas> hmm, where had I heared that name before?
17:36:04 <b_jonas> `random-card queen of the fae
17:36:06 <HackEgo> Oona, Queen of the Fae \ 3(u/b)(u/b)(u/b) \ Legendary Creature -- Faerie Wizard \ 5/5 \ Flying \ {X}{(u/b)}: Choose a color. Target opponent exiles the top X cards of his or her library. For each card of the chosen color exiled this way, put a 1/1 blue and black Faerie Rogue creature token with flying onto the battlefield. \ SHM-R, MMA-R, V11-M
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17:48:45 <int-e> . o O ( a bugbear is a teddy bear that you can explain your bugs to. )
17:49:14 <b_jonas> `learn A bugbear is a teddy bear that you can explain your bugs to.
17:49:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'bugbear': A bugbear is a teddy bear that you can explain your bugs to.
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18:33:52 <oren> except that ca
18:34:41 <oren> canada is cold and california is a horrible burning desert hellscape
18:35:09 <oren> with a water table below sea level
18:35:47 <oren> whereas canada has huge amounts[of fresh water
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18:39:47 <gamemanj> ...burning desert hellscape doesn't sound like a good place to be
18:40:05 <lambdabot> KOAK 161653Z 20003KT 10SM FEW012 16/11 A3000 RMK AO2 SLP160 T01610106
18:40:10 <lambdabot> CYYZ 161700Z 27010G24KT 210V300 15SM FEW045 FEW095 SCT230 14/03 A3004 RMK CU1AC2CI1 CU TR SLP179
18:40:20 <gamemanj> I hope their implementation of INhs is up to spec... though spec version 2006, not spec version 2016...
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18:56:37 <lambdabot> KATL 161752Z 12008KT 10SM FEW080 SCT150 BKN250 22/04 A3018 RMK AO2 SLP216 T02220044 10228 20139 58011
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19:33:38 <shachaf> Cale: Are there names for the three different operations of convolutions?
19:33:45 <shachaf> Or a more general way to talk about them or something?
19:34:28 <Cale> I don't really know if anyone's attempted to really try to abstract over what's going on there -- at least, any more than the category algebra definition.
19:35:25 <coppro> Cale: I'm starting to understand your advice about baking in the monad stack
19:35:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cryptoleq]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=47042&oldid=46449 * Ditihala * (+30) /* External Resources */
19:36:19 <Cale> shachaf: I had the thought the other night that perhaps if our category had additional structure, we could integrate over the choices of factorisations.
19:37:10 <coppro> since, for instance, I want to be able to tack on additional structure sometimes (a la Reader) but don't want to risk confusing things more
19:37:25 <Cale> coppro: The fact that I never use the word "stack" in reference to monads should tell you something about the way I think about it :)
19:38:20 <shachaf> Cale is giving advice about baking in the monad stack?
19:38:33 <shachaf> That sounds like something Eugenia Cheng would do.
19:38:55 <Cale> I think he's referring to my advice to always newtype
19:39:11 <Cale> and hide the fact that you're using monad transformers to implement whatever it is you're implementing
19:39:38 <coppro> I think I may still use the monad classes, to get standard combinators
19:40:04 <coppro> but I'm definitely seeing the value in baking things together
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20:03:45 <zzo38> What is "baking in the monad stack"?
20:04:19 <shachaf> i,i ybden is now known as molum
20:04:48 <ybden> shachaf: That's actually what my nick was derived from
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20:05:24 <coppro> zzo38: using a newtype or the like to hide your monad transformer stack
20:05:33 <molum> shachaf: thanks for the other nick :)
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20:30:29 <shachaf> molybdenum? i 'ardly know 'em!
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20:58:01 <int-e> @unpl (\a b -> b a) (\b -> b) u
20:59:00 <int-e> yay, variable capture.
20:59:17 <int-e> (it's been reported: https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/issues/142 )
20:59:30 <shachaf> spot of the alpha conversion, governor?
20:59:41 <shachaf> Actually you don't need alpha conversion for this case.
20:59:49 <int-e> @unpl (\a a -> a) b
20:59:50 <shachaf> But you need it for more complicated cases.
20:59:55 <int-e> I guess that's the simplest.
21:00:12 <shachaf> Well, that's just an error.
21:00:46 <int-e> > (\a -> \a -> a) 0 0
21:01:03 <shachaf> are you testing it with 0 and 0 to be confusing on purpose hth
21:01:05 <int-e> but as far as @unpl is concerned that makes no difference.
21:05:27 <shachaf> What was the case where alpha conversion is really necessary?
21:06:02 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, that's (\a -> \a -> a) a b
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21:06:44 <b_jonas> I once wrote a lambda expression interpreter that got that exact thing wrong, so the inner binding couldn't successfully shadow the outer binding, and it used the outer binding
21:07:16 <shachaf> The a a thing was a joke, modeled after int-e's joke.
21:07:34 <gamemanj> hey, what's a good BrainFuck program that isn't Lost Kingdom as a good test for a BrainFuck interpreter?
21:07:59 <shachaf> b_jonas: But you don't actually need alpha conversion for that, do you?
21:08:15 <gamemanj> (To be more precise, one that isn't on the order of several MiB and uses tons of cycles... it's not a fast interpreter)
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21:09:33 <shachaf> <dolio> shachaf: \x -> (\f x -> f) (\y -> x) ~> \x -> (\x -> \y -> x)
21:09:35 <int-e> there's something simpler, but for example, (\f x. f (f (f (f x)))) (\a y z. a (y z)) has (\x y z z1 z2 z3. x (y z z1 z2 z3)) as its normal form.
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21:10:00 <int-e> which has more bound variables then you started out with.
21:10:25 <shachaf> dolio's example is pretty simple.
21:11:21 <int-e> dolio's is not fully named apart.
21:11:47 <int-e> there are two bound variables called 'x' in there.
21:12:30 <int-e> (I'm looking for something stronger where doing alpha only up front doesn't work)
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21:21:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, you just need to keep the bindings in order, appending new bindings to the start of the binding list, and look up the first binding to a given name every time.
21:21:41 <shachaf> Aren't the two lines posted above counterexamples to that?
21:23:58 <HackEgo> [U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK]
21:29:34 <int-e> @unpl (\c -> c c) (\a b -> b (a b))
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21:31:25 <shachaf> @pl (\c -> c c) (\a b -> b (a b))
21:31:33 <gamemanj> given no suggestions... this is really slow and mostly untested, but it should interpret the code correctly:
21:31:34 <lambdabot> (\ f -> return ((\ a -> a) f ((\ m h -> (m >>= \ i -> return ((\ b -> b) h i)) h) f)) f)
21:31:35 <gamemanj> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/bp-brainfuck-jonripleylostkng.BytePusher
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21:33:12 <gamemanj> expect weirdness and perhaps a "Yield Failure" - that means I made the interpreter too fast.
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21:53:07 <int-e> hmm no fizzie today?
21:53:41 <int-e> (this was a ping in disguise)
21:54:20 <int-e> that woyld be too subtle for me
21:54:24 <fungot> b_jonas: r5rs is the de facto standard
21:54:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:54:56 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
21:55:32 <fungot> shachaf: 02:15, june 12, 2007.. 76.184.221.233 ( talk block) ( removed dollar sign wikilinks)
21:55:59 <shachaf> fungot: don't you quote commit logs at me
21:55:59 <fungot> shachaf: then its done, once these steps are completed the article is fnord erroneous and needs to be added to the article quality at all.
21:56:05 <olsner> fungot: again with less dates and numbers?
21:56:05 <fungot> olsner: ' ' ' does this imply someone removed an innocuous link to a site called ' fnord'"
21:56:15 <olsner> fungot: I think it does!
21:56:15 <fungot> olsner: otherwise send this article to its fate. the moment he agreed to delete her from his mind. i think there is a major cabinet portfolio but then we're told that peters is outside cabinet. how are those reconciled? i see there is grounds for coverage for this controversy fnord said fnord
21:56:39 <fungot> gamemanj: ' ' ' fnord fnord'" is being used under wikipedia:fair usefair use but there is
21:57:05 <gamemanj> where does fnord come into wikipedia talk pages
21:57:12 <olsner> it just fnords right in there
21:57:23 <HackEgo> 1136) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
21:57:24 <shachaf> gamemanj: It's all over the place.
21:57:54 <olsner> the fnords could also be [REDACTED]
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22:05:28 <int-e> @unpl f a = \a -> a
22:06:07 <int-e> @unpl \a -> \a -> a
22:06:30 <int-e> oh this is just golden.
22:06:34 <int-e> "-- TODO: avoid captures while substituting"
22:06:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
22:06:48 <int-e> prooftechnique: yes but that's besides the point.
22:07:05 <int-e> prooftechnique: the point is that both inputs are legal, and both outputs are illegal in Haskell
22:08:54 <nortti> at what point in computational power hierarchy does it become possible to construct an "universal X-machine"
22:09:25 <nortti> I mean, a machine of computational power X able to be emulate any other machine of the class given right input
22:10:18 <nortti> 1-stack PDA not possible, and turing machine possible, but say is it possible to construct "universal primitive recursive function"
22:13:03 <b_jonas> nortti: I don't think you can do that. a primitive recursive function is always time bound by some knuth arrow function of its input size, with a fixed number of arrows, so if you take any one, then it can't emulate primitive recursive functions with a higher number of knuth arrows.
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22:15:28 <b_jonas> nortti: does that make sense?
22:16:58 <int-e> This code is evil... it takes a shortcut: Rather than traversing the AST and keeping track of free names, it relies on a Generic instance and uses "everywhere" to substitute variables by a new expression.
22:17:50 <nortti> b_jonas: yeah. was just thinking that as primitive recursive's time is limited by input, if you could encode in the input how much time it'd need, but I guess it cannot work
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22:20:04 <int-e> @unpl \a -> b (\c -> b) a
22:20:08 <int-e> @unpl \a -> b (\a -> b) a
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22:47:32 <fizzie> @tell gamemanj <spoilers> rare words have been pruned from some models, and in those cases fungot renders OOV words as 'fnord' </spoilers>
22:47:32 <fungot> fizzie: please go to fnord image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with wp:fufair use.
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22:47:53 <fizzie> Also that thing's gone through the laziest wiki markup removal in the word.
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22:49:10 <fizzie> "wp:fufair use" comes from [[WP:FU|fair use]] or some-such.
22:49:43 <boily> fiziello. what's a wp:fu?
22:49:50 <fizzie> (And similarly for the earlier "wikipedia:fair usefair use".
22:49:58 <fizzie> boily: See recent fungot babbling.
22:49:58 <fungot> fizzie: a few years before there really is any version of the bible", thomas nelson publishers ( nashville, fnord,
22:50:14 * boily consults the fungot
22:50:14 <fungot> boily: ' ' ' fnord'" is being used on this article.
22:50:41 <fungot> olsner: i could not give a fnord if na was gay. in other words, it doesn't add much relevance to the rest of the article mentions a " cliff". span style="border: 1px solid fnord style="background: fnord 20:37, 29 november 2007 ( utc)
22:51:45 <fungot> Selected style: homestuck (Homestuck pages 1901-4673)
22:52:04 <fizzie> Let's do something different, the wp style makes me just sad about how lazy I've been.
22:52:15 <fizzie> Although I don't think this one was a particularly good one either.
22:53:14 <fungot> olsner: at the time of impact, a large, white structure that looked like a blue one too which was way more awesome shades in the style his bro dropped. she knows it. she's a huge culprit was. you can still be a way that it shakes is the same. trolls think fashion is stupid. stop doing nothing but wondering what could it be the same as the word " crazy"
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23:18:57 <int-e> @unpl \join -> join
23:28:39 <int-e> sorry for yelling, but this is painful.
23:31:23 <int-e> and... there's a TODO for that as well: "-- TODO: more generally correct would be to not substitute any variable which is bound by a pattern"
23:39:21 <boily> there's nothing permanenter than a temporary thing hth
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