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00:57:29 <prooftechnique> A TODO is like a check you write yourself for a million dollars. It'd be great if it went through one day, but they tend to just bounce until you lose hope and start writing Java
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01:14:34 <Guest60822> Hello, I had a few questions about the few questions about thue
01:18:56 <fizzie> (Just go ahead and ask, although I don't think resident Thue experts are present at the moment.)
01:25:42 <Phantom_Hoover> someone thought this was a good way of implementing a string split
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01:28:10 <fizzie> Calling strtok on a string literal is one of the constantly recurring ##c topics.
01:29:57 <fizzie> `runc #include <string.h> \n int main(void) { strtok("foo bar", " "); }
01:30:07 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/runc: line 3: 300 Segmentation fault $t
01:30:13 <shachaf> fizzie: I worked on a program that used strtok to parse argv.
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01:30:37 <shachaf> It was pretty confusing to look at it in the process list.
01:31:19 <fizzie> That rings a bell, probably seen it happen as well.
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01:33:10 <shachaf> strtok ought to use self-modifying code.
01:33:52 <shachaf> And instead of strtok_r, you should be required to copy the code of strtok into a new writable executable buffer.
01:34:06 <shachaf> That way you can keep the same API.
01:36:19 <fizzie> The C99 rationale says strsep was rejected because "it's easy enough for a user to provide this functionality, and it is unclear that an implementor can do a substantially better job; so, there was not sufficient support for adding this feature."
01:36:31 <fizzie> (strsep also modifies the string, but at least it uses a strtok_r-style scheme for keeping the state in the caller.)
01:37:44 <fizzie> (Well, arguably even a more reasonable one, since it avoids that nonsense about passing NULL as the first argument.)
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02:08:33 <menwithHill> Why is "polynomial time" named as such in computer science?
02:09:29 <oerjan> because the time used is bounded by a polynomial in the input size.
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02:13:56 <shachaf> oerjan: but why isn't it called "monomial time"
02:13:56 <menwithHill> oerjan: and NP being when there is no final halting of the computations?
02:14:49 <pikhq> I really wish that when C11 hit they also added the POSIX-only thread safe versions of functions (such as strtok_r).
02:14:53 <oerjan> menwithHill: no, the N in NP is for "nondeterministic"
02:15:33 <shachaf> i,i which means it's bounded by a nondeterministic polynomial
02:15:40 <pikhq> But nooo, they only added something with the same functionality as strerror_r, only more painful to use.
02:15:44 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:17:24 <fizzie> pikhq: strtok_s is in C11, right?
02:17:59 <pikhq> Oh, right, they did add that too.
02:18:27 <pikhq> It's still basically strtok_r only less convenient.
02:19:02 <pikhq> Gah, the *_s functions. Functions only implemented (in a non-conformant way) by a vendor that can't be bothered to implement C99, but managed to push features in C11 anyways.
02:19:38 <shachaf> Well, C99 is 9 times as hard to implement as C11.
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02:32:46 <Cale> menwithHill: NP is the class of decision problems which are solvable in an amount of time bounded by a polynomial in the input size, on a nondeterministic Turing machine -- which is like an ordinary Turing machine, except that you can have multiple transitions for the same initial condition, and the machine takes both paths simultaneously (which means that you can have an exponential blowup in the number of states that the machine/tap
02:32:46 <Cale> e is presently in).
02:33:27 <Cale> Basically Turing machines with unbounded parallel forking
02:33:54 <shachaf> Why do people take nondeterministic machines as a primitive?
02:34:21 <shachaf> I don't exactly have anything against them, but they seem like a bit of an odd and arbitrary construction.
02:37:08 <Cale> shachaf: At this point it's got to be mainly that there are interesting difficult problems to be solved.
02:37:32 <Cale> P vs. NP is almost motivation enough :)
02:37:43 <menwithHill> nondet. machine seems to mean a machine with unlimited power of computation
02:38:16 <shachaf> Maybe I should think of it as "always taking the right path" rather than "taking all paths".
02:38:20 <lifthrasiir> it can do the exactly same kind of computation, only the performance differs
02:39:18 <Cale> shachaf: Another way to look at it is that NP is the class of decision problems for which a polynomial-length certificate can be constructed such that given that certificate, the solution to the problem can be checked in polynomial time.
02:39:58 <lifthrasiir> I... I think I cannot understand what does it mean
02:42:46 <fizzie> Cale: That's fine, but then people start asking about the "N".
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09:28:10 <HackEgo> Spellgorger Barbarian \ 3R \ Creature -- Human Nightmare Barbarian \ 3/1 \ When Spellgorger Barbarian enters the battlefield, discard a card at random. \ When Spellgorger Barbarian leaves the battlefield, draw a card. \ JUD-C
09:28:11 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Why do people take nondeterministic machines as a primitive?" => probably at the influence of Chomsky? or did it start before him?
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11:36:49 <boily> fungot: do you moon ranges? do you even have buttocks to moon ranges with?
11:36:49 <fungot> boily: so this is the same. trolls think fashion is stupid. stop doing nothing but wondering what could it be the same but different too m4ny h1ghly just1f1abl3 4nd w3ll d3s3rv3d punch3s w1ll b3 thrown 1n du3 t1m3
11:37:11 <boily> fungot: don't punch me. it's uncouth hth
11:37:11 <fungot> boily: in a good way though you are not really sure that we will meet again! not even a gulli8le dope like you.
11:37:40 <fungot> boily: but that jackass won't shut up and stop the thief in the throes of an unraveling alibi. " the massacre of syrs gnelph was not as written a message you got, my brother, and we just keep the safe or tub handy or the other, to function as the better half. the two partners in a strong pale relationship will serve to balance and complement each other's, since there is no quadrant which naturally conceals two licorice scotty d
11:37:52 * boily mapoles the fungot
11:37:52 <fungot> boily: it is a hate so pure and... pumpkin seeds?. perhaps to leave that crap in the shitty scifi novels where his favorite movies. he would just go on and on about it.
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12:11:37 <fizzie> fungot: *You* just go on and on about it.
12:11:37 <fungot> fizzie: for a while it was frustrating. wasn't nothin but misfortune...
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12:23:53 <HackEgo> he chilline for one out of the apple mashed. \ Sprinkle the parsley and flour and set aside. Fry the chops to a \ boil, and simmer for about 30 minutes, or until the mixture is \ coated and all the beef dispalles are done. \ \ 2. In a large bowl mix beans, and salt in skillet over medium high heat, inchen and \ until soft comes out. Reduce t
12:24:29 <HackEgo> Chopped onions; chopped \ 1 ts Salt and pepper \ 1 ts Salt \ 1/3 c Water \ 3/4 c Confectioners shortening \ 2 tb Chopped fresh cilantro \ 1 ts Salt \ 1/4 ts Ground cumin \ 1/2 ts Dijon; softened \ \ Mix ingredients in a large cookie sheet, about 3 minutes. Sprinkle \ peaches and parsley. \ \ Per serving: 207 mg chol cooled, 15 grams
12:24:29 <HackEgo> Patriarch's Desire \ 3B \ Enchantment -- Aura \ Enchant creature \ Enchanted creature gets +2/-2. \ Threshold -- Enchanted creature gets an additional +2/-2 as long as seven or more cards are in your graveyard. \ OD-C
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14:15:25 <fizzie> oerjan: int-e: Just to keep you up to date on current news, we've migratated the domain over, and it's been renewed for a year as well.
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14:27:45 <mroman> what happens when you have a system that keeps "data" alive by just re-transmitting it
14:27:50 <mroman> but never storing the whole data
14:28:21 <Taneb> Like delay line memory?
14:28:29 <mroman> There are nodes in the internet, these nodes connect to other nodes. Everything a node receives, it just broadcasts it to the other nodes
14:28:57 <mroman> you read like I don't know 4MB chunks of data or something like that
14:29:06 <mroman> then re-transmit it to other nodes
14:29:13 <mroman> not storing what you have transmitted so far.
14:30:02 <mroman> it would be interesting how much data you can store on the "line"
14:30:12 <mroman> It takes some time for data to arrive at the other endpoint.
14:30:30 <mroman> it'd probably work with just two nodes
14:30:37 <mroman> you send data, the other one sends it back
14:31:01 <mroman> the amount of data you can send before you receive the first byte back should be the amount of bytes you can store "in the interweb"
14:33:11 <izabera> how do you find what you're looking for?
14:33:42 <mroman> that's another issue :D
14:33:59 <mroman> but you could tag streams somehow
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14:34:10 <mroman> like the first few bytes are the id of the datastream
14:34:20 <mroman> you just listen on the network until you find what you need then start logging the traffic
14:34:34 <mroman> but you can hardly delete anything.
14:36:41 <mroman> well if you broadcast to n-nodes each
14:36:46 <mroman> then that won't do the trick :)
14:37:24 <izabera> you can't broadcast to more nodes
14:39:00 <mroman> since you can tag streams you can prevent that you re-broadcast the same thing more than once at the same time
14:39:25 <mroman> if you're already broadcasting stream N, and some node connects to you and broadcasts stream N you can deny that request
14:40:18 <mroman> there might be cases where you receive more than you can broadcast
14:40:46 <mroman> which should give congestion signals back to the nodes somehow
14:40:55 <mroman> causing them to send less data
14:41:10 <mroman> either way if all the protocols work correctly together there should be an equilibrium of some sort?
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14:57:37 <fizzie> It sounds like what you get when you're designing a normal distributed file system, but flip a minus sign for the "minimize bandwidth use" term in the cost function your design is trying to optimize.
15:01:04 <fizzie> I don't think you could really make things work so smoothly that you'd have all the data in "the wire" without being ready to either buffer it at the nodes or lose it, because the "storage capacity" of the connection will clearly fluctuate a lot.
15:02:45 <mroman> basically as soon as you have more data than you can send before receiving the first thing you've sent again you need to buffer it somewhere
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15:03:15 <fizzie> It all sounds vaguely familiar, but I seem to be finding only boring reasonable pages when looking up what I'm vaguely recalling.
15:03:24 <mroman> but the idea as that some of the data is buffered by routers and network equipment of ISPs
15:03:31 <fizzie> On cloud storage and organizing cables on your desk and such.
15:03:55 <mroman> of course, once they notice what you're doing they'll pretty much cancel your subscription :D
15:04:28 <mroman> anyway, i'll probably write some 1h hackish software and experiment with that
15:05:00 <mroman> would hardly require more than a bit socket code to get a first prototype working
15:05:24 <mroman> that and test computers
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19:20:07 <Taneb> What's a good time to set an alarm for a 9AM exam
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19:21:12 <fowl> 7 and every half hour between 7 and 9
19:21:50 * fowl doesn't fully wake up until he's in a rage from 2 hours of alarms going off
19:22:06 <int-e> how long will it take you to get there
19:22:26 <int-e> do you want to have breakfast
19:23:03 <Taneb> Hmm, fifteen or twenty minutes, and I'd like ten minutes for breakfast
19:23:21 <Taneb> I think I'll go every fifteen minutes from 7 to 8:30
19:23:26 <int-e> (those were my criteria... with the answer to the latter question being no... I just aimed to be there 10 minutes before the exam starts)
19:23:45 <Taneb> Although knowing me I'm gonna be so worked up about it I'll wake up at five
19:26:13 <int-e> otoh I'd plan for taking a shower
19:26:42 <Taneb> I have 7 exams in 7 days, I'm afraid hygiene is not my highest priority
19:27:30 <int-e> well it's good for relaxation
19:27:35 <shachaf> but a shower will also help you think better
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21:12:50 <int-e> no, "algebraic chess notation" is not a notation for algebraic chess
21:17:53 <coppro> int-e: that sounds wise
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21:18:08 <b_jonas> `? algebraic chess notation
21:19:10 <coppro> `le/rn algebraic chess notation/ algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess
21:19:30 <HackEgo> αλτγρ+γ//αλτγρ+γ is the national dead pastry of Greece. Goes great with a glass of ouzo!
21:19:30 <HackEgo> algebraic chess notation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:19:39 <HackEgo> Learned «algebraic chess notation»
21:20:35 <int-e> he'll feel compelled to remove the inital space and add a period at the end
21:21:21 <int-e> and then he'll ramble about how he's retired
21:21:25 <coppro> `algebraic chess notation
21:21:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: algebraic: not found
21:21:32 <coppro> `?algebraic chess notation
21:21:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?algebraic: not found
21:21:37 <coppro> `? algebraic chess notation
21:21:39 <HackEgo> algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess
21:21:51 <coppro> `le/rn algebraic chess notation/algebraic chess notation is not a notation for algebraic chess.
21:21:56 <HackEgo> Relearned «algebraic chess notation»
21:23:46 <HackEgo> 548) <fizzie> I prefer the N64 controller, it's the only one that has place for my third hand.
21:23:46 <HackEgo> 1167) <Slereah_> And neutrinos aren't small neutrons! <Bike> They are small and neutral, though. <Slereah_> So is Switzerland
21:23:46 <HackEgo> 696) <fizzie> fungot: Feeling scrambled after all that? <fungot> fizzie: but it's much like new zealand, in my stone-age country, we still like you even if you're only using the new fnord
21:23:46 <HackEgo> 93) <fungot> pikhq: from csh type ' exit', is a simple protocol which provides an interface to c. [...]
21:23:47 <HackEgo> 320) <pikhq_> And if they wanted to go for "true" security, they'd just do "Warning: your computer has not been turned into a plasma. This may cause some of your personal data to be stolen. Click here to turn your computer into a ball of incandescent gas, a gigantic nuclear furnace."
21:25:51 <shachaf> coppro: what if you just `sedlast s/.//
21:25:58 <HackEgo> files="$(lastfiles)"; sed -i "$1" "$files"; echo -n "$files//"; cat "$files"
21:28:01 <coppro> shachaf: that wouldn't have handled the leading space. though I guess I could have done two expressions?
21:28:29 <coppro> your expression only fixes one of the two errors
21:31:21 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't notice that part.
21:34:10 <shachaf> `` echo ' blah blah' | sed 's; ;;;s $ . '
21:45:22 <fizzie> Huh, I didn't even know you could use space.
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21:59:59 <int-e> . o O ( Space is not used; it's occupied. For example: "What's your occupation?" - "About 80 liters." )
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22:16:52 <fizzie> oerjan: Happy Norway something-or-another day.
22:17:16 <fizzie> I don't know what day it is, but the SIXT car rental company emailed me an ad about it.
22:17:53 <oerjan> it's constitution day, aka our national day.
22:18:07 <fizzie> "Norwegians get happier and we are celebrating our country's birthday on May 17th. The streets will be filled with people wearing their national dress."
22:18:12 <fizzie> Also 10% of all car rentals.
22:19:08 <oerjan> (celebrating the signing of the constitution in 1814. although i vaguely recall claims it's a day off.)
22:19:45 <oerjan> i didn't dress up, national or otherwise, although i did eat a better dinner.
22:21:47 <b_jonas> oerjan: were there fireworks?
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22:29:16 <oerjan> b_jonas: no, that's only a new year custom.
22:30:08 <oerjan> instead, there are two parades and heaps of marching brass bands.
22:30:31 <shachaf> molum: WHy do you change nicks all the time?
22:30:58 <oerjan> and probably speeches. not that i went.
22:31:11 <oerjan> in Oslo there'll also be waving royals.
22:31:35 <fizzie> Fun fact: molybdenum mines (at least the one I know of) produce as byproduct lots of white(ish) sand.
22:31:36 <shachaf> oerjan: happy Napoleon crowned Emperor, 1804 day
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22:32:04 <molum> shachaf: Hmm? I don't, AFAIK
22:32:12 <shachaf> Well, you changed it just now.
22:32:17 <shachaf> And you also changed to hive and back.
22:32:24 <molum> Unless I change to a nick, and then back, in which case it's probably a joke in another channel
22:32:28 <molum> hive being one such one
22:32:48 <shachaf> fizzie: 10% of all car rentals happen today?
22:33:52 <oerjan> shachaf: you're a few months off hth
22:34:16 <fizzie> No, just 10% of all car rentals. No particular verb.
22:34:21 <oerjan> Napoleon's crowning anniversary.
22:35:10 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAelk5ZHdwZHlwWWM <- molybdenum mine byproduct sand pit. Or so I've been told.
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22:35:54 <shachaf> oerjan: ok, happy Nauru constitution day hth
22:36:42 <molum> fizzie: hmm, interesting
22:36:56 <molum> that looks quite pretty
22:37:09 <fizzie> shachaf: Happy U.S. Department of Energy declassifies documents showing world's largest mercury pollution event in Oak Ridge, Tennessee (ultimately found to be 4.2 million pounds) day.
22:37:10 <oerjan> shachaf: the _actual_ king involved was danish prince Christian Frederik, who only kept the throne for about 5 months. that part didn't stick.
22:37:43 <oerjan> (he inherited denmark later, though.)
22:37:48 <shachaf> fizzie: what's happy about that
22:37:55 <shachaf> i guess declassifying documents is good
22:38:03 <fizzie> shachaf: Well, it wasn't 5.2 million pounds.
22:40:13 <shachaf> It was pretty close, though.
22:40:56 <shachaf> oerjan: wait, napoleon's emperor thing started on may 18 anyway
22:41:07 <oerjan> shachaf: the thing we are celebrating was an attempt at norwegian independence (but keeping the same royal dynasty), which failed. and then somehow became the basis for gradually getting actual independence, 91 years later.
22:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> Could there be a quaternionic 4D mandelbrot set? One which, of course, you can slice and browse?
22:41:25 <shachaf> isn't it odd how some countries don't have independence day
22:41:59 <oerjan> we do have an independence day, but it's not very much celebrated.
22:42:15 <oerjan> i think it may be an official flag day.
22:43:13 <shachaf> fizzie: oh, you were using https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_17
22:43:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: which independence day? the one when Széchenyi suicided, or the one after the first world war?
22:44:50 <oerjan> b_jonas: the one when we left Sweden behind. the one after the second world war is liberation day, which is May 8, and is at least somewhat celebrated.
22:45:33 <oerjan> norway stayed neutral in WWI.
22:46:44 <oerjan> the one after WW2 isn't called independence day because presumably no one considered the nazi government to have been legal in the first place.
22:47:01 <oerjan> (well, no one who counts.)
22:48:58 <shachaf> fizzie: 4.2 million pounds is over 6 million USD
22:49:11 <shachaf> presumably it was a lot more at the time
22:54:24 <oerjan> <int-e> he'll feel compelled to remove the inital space and add a period at the end <-- you forgot the capital tdnh
22:55:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/sedlast: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/sedlast: cannot execute: Permission denied
22:55:48 <shachaf> but now i can't use it anymore
22:57:08 <shachaf> if i made that program, i'd need sedthirdtolast tdnh
22:58:14 <shachaf> `` sed -i s.A wisdom/'algebraic chess notation'
23:03:12 <HackEgo> emac//emacs is the weird brother of nano.
23:03:35 <HackEgo> emacs is the weird brother of nano.
23:03:47 <shachaf> oerjan: careful, you're supposed to be retired
23:04:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Mandelbrot with a number other than 2 (Z=Z^2+c)
23:04:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there's a sense in which they all look pretty much like the usual one, up close.
23:05:02 <oerjan> for the same reason that the usual mandelbrot contains many almost copies of itself.
23:05:03 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Specifically, for multibrot n, it's like n-1 mandelbrot sets squished together
23:05:18 <shachaf> b_jonas: MCV = Mobile Construction Vehicle hth
23:05:38 <shachaf> multibrot 2 is like 1 mandelbrot set squished together
23:06:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Wikipedia even talks about things like multibrot 2.3 (where that analogy breaks down), but there is no mention of multibrot i or 2+i
23:06:56 <oerjan> multibrot 1, though...
23:07:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: part of the problem is that once you use non-integers, everything becomes multivalued.
23:08:04 <oerjan> or alternatively, gets ugly branch cuts.
23:08:38 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Because n^0 = 1, and 1+1+1+1+...+1+c diverges for all c
23:08:54 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um that's multibrot 0.
23:09:27 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, multibrot 0 has power -1 by my completely stupid definition
23:09:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But yes, it would be 0 if you use a good definition (where mandelbrot is multibrot 2)
23:10:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hm then i'm not sure whether shachaf got that or not.
23:10:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: anyway, i disagree with your analysis. multibrot 1 gives 1+c each step.
23:10:57 <shachaf> i know mandelbrot is multibrot 2
23:11:10 <shachaf> multibrot 1 diverges everywhere except 0
23:11:22 <oerjan> shachaf: no, it's multibrot 1.
23:11:48 <shachaf> that's not consistent with what hppavilion[1] said, isn't it
23:11:55 <shachaf> 15:05 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Specifically, for multibrot n, it's like n-1 mandelbrot sets squished together
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23:12:24 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: YOU ARE INCONSISTENT
23:13:02 * hppavilion[1] feels clever again, but is more tentative this time
23:13:32 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Mandelbrot for the split-complexes or the duals?
23:13:48 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multibrot_set just says "multibrot with d = "
23:13:56 <shachaf> nothing about subtract 1 from the exponent
23:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I used a shitty definition of multibrot n that had a needless subtraction
23:14:41 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: also the talk page of that wikipedia page has a picture with a complex exponent hth
23:14:41 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Because it was convenient where multibrot n is n frankensteined mandelbrot sets
23:14:57 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: ok but you changed your definition in mid-conversation without telling anyone about it
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23:17:12 <oerjan> b_jonas: alas, i don't think there's an ö, even in german.
23:19:41 <oerjan> `le/rn almond bread/Almond bread is a delicacy made from fractal dough.
23:23:18 <hppavilion[1]> "Modern Gender Theory, or the 'Mandelbrot Sex', is..."
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23:37:51 <fizzie> The Swedish bread is bröd, if that's indeed what you were talking about.
23:39:12 <fizzie> I went to BLABAR (aka BLÅBÄR for diacritic-deficient people) the other day, a "Nordic concept store and cafe" hereabouts.
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23:39:21 <fizzie> They have the typical Swedish incorrect cinnamon buns.
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23:42:48 <shachaf> What is a Swedish incorrect cinnamon bun?
23:45:28 <fizzie> shachaf: The one that the majority thinks is correct, actually.
23:45:42 <fizzie> https://krausnickitchen.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/img_4711.jpg
23:45:55 <shachaf> What is a correct cinnamon bun?
23:46:25 <fizzie> The Finnish variant, which is rolled the other way around.
23:46:26 <fizzie> http://www.fazershop.com/globalassets/inriver/resources/722c8801-0252-4c3b-9ee6-92bf0e552aca3.jpg
23:46:39 <fizzie> Now I want a cinnamon bun of either kind. :/
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