00:02:07 <fizzie> I have a notion the "registering my straight throws as curve balls from time to time" issue is some sort of a bug with the touchy input stuff having some touches get stuck, or some-such.
00:02:28 -!- centrinia has quit (Quit: Leaving).
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00:04:23 * boily pokes oerjan to check for immortality
00:04:44 <shachaf> are you in the mood to look at some kittens
00:05:01 <boily> kittens are always nice.
00:06:37 * oerjan shambles in boily's general direction
00:06:52 <boily> oh. _that_ kind of immortality.
00:07:01 <oerjan> what other is there, duh
00:08:09 <oerjan> hm spammers trying again?
00:08:23 <oerjan> and clearly testing posting as well as captcha
00:16:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> Is that one also named after Lem? <-- no hth
00:16:50 * oerjan hasn't read _that_ much Lem, anyway.
00:16:58 <oerjan> shachaf: hmph, can't you guess.
00:17:09 <shachaf> Not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Master%27s_Voice_(novel) ?
00:18:02 <shachaf> Oh, maybe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nipper
00:18:19 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Master%27s_Voice
00:18:32 <oerjan> well the "His Master's Voice" part would be after the famous pooch picture (which is also a record label?)
00:18:52 <shachaf> I never heard of it before.
00:19:17 <oerjan> i suppose you're too young to know about vinyl records hth
00:19:19 <shachaf> When I looked it up I thought the Lem book was first.
00:19:25 <boily> shachaf proposing kittens, oerjan talking of pooches, and there is a plastic guide for throwing pokeballs. there's something wrong going on...
00:19:39 <oerjan> shachaf: i wouldn't know.
00:19:57 <oerjan> boily: i'm just so impressible hth
00:20:43 <oerjan> it's a scow character trait, i know.
00:22:13 <oerjan> oh Nipper was his name
00:23:01 <oerjan> boily: is there a guide for whether pokeballs should be disposed as plastic twh
00:23:57 <boily> are pokemons edible?
00:24:07 <shachaf> boily: here are some nippooches: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMUB1uYLv3M
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00:46:54 <hppavilion[1]> I really want to plug Trump into https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
00:47:14 <hppavilion[1]> But his opinions are so inconsistent that it just isn't feasible
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01:00:32 <lambdabot> LOWI 222350Z AUTO 06003KT 330V110 9999 FEW016 SCT017 BKN110 18/16 Q1018
01:01:09 <boily> I took the test, and I scored -6.25/10 on the left right axis, and -8.62/10 on the authoritarian libertarian axis.
01:01:24 <boily> int-e: 18/16? bletch!
01:01:53 <lambdabot> EGLL 222350Z AUTO 22004KT 9999 NCD 19/15 Q1020 NOSIG
01:02:14 <oerjan> fizzie: fungone for a while
01:02:24 <Sgeo> Why does the Pokemon TCG software emulate a physical table? A flat surface would be much more readable
01:02:33 <quintopia> boily: i take it that makes you liberauthoritarian?
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01:02:52 <fungot> fizzie: using some implied fnord for now :d or for anything
01:02:54 <Sgeo> Apparently I have a pokemon.com account. I'm guessing I tried the Pokemon TCG online briefly befoe
01:03:30 <shachaf> fizzie: who gets paged when fungot dies
01:03:30 <fungot> shachaf: what about 0 0(1) gives output and results 0 0 x x x x x
01:03:38 <fungot> shachaf: i'm hatching norns to be slaughtered by an fnord to it, and i have a phrase with 2 quasiquotes in it, so
01:03:42 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:04:04 <fizzie> shachaf: The job doesn't even die, it just gets stuck forever somehow.
01:04:21 <boily> quintopia: more libertocialist hth.
01:04:27 <shachaf> fizzie: what was that thing sres said
01:04:37 <shachaf> fizzie: monitor symptoms or something like that
01:04:52 <fungot> boily: oops didn't mean to say is that it's " finished and working" ( in some unspecified order), each variable is assigned, so it's totally useless
01:05:02 <quintopia> boily: isn't socialism basically the definition of liberal authoritarianism?
01:05:37 <boily> oops. I didn't parse the portmanteau correctly.
01:05:38 <fizzie> shachaf: I need /healthz on it.
01:06:23 <shachaf> fizzie: can you believe that there are programs in the world that don't always run an http and/or rpc server
01:06:43 <fizzie> shachaf: Somehow I can.
01:06:51 <fizzie> shachaf: I think a number of Android client apps don't.
01:07:24 <Sgeo> <lambdabot> FireFly said 11h 13m 29s ago: <Sgeo> FireFly, is the number of cards limitation based on name or card itself? ← oh, good point. it's based on the name, so that is another case where it matters
01:07:31 <shachaf> fizzie: Well, server programs.
01:09:35 <fizzie> Maybe I should be running fungot with Kubernetes.
01:09:36 <fungot> fizzie: a compsci grad student by chance? would make it fail in a spectacular way, but mycology specifies it well enough. the information is ambient and always there ( just seeing it reminds me of a line ( to include in order to
01:09:49 <olsner> fungot: do you like kubernetes?
01:09:49 <fungot> olsner: apart from gaining some efficiency, as opposed to fnord
01:15:14 <hppavilion[1]> Googling "is there any good option in this election" gives Wikipedia/None of the Above
01:15:38 <fungot> shachaf: emacs lisp, or smalltalk, or ruby before c any day.
01:17:34 <Sgeo> Oh I totally misunderstood prize cards I think
01:17:44 <Sgeo> When I knock out enemy pokemon, I take my own I think
01:25:23 <Sgeo> Playing the tutorial, was told to evolve a Pokemon. Despite the basic having an energy 2 attack and the new one only having a 1 and 3, I think the new one is monotonically better, because the new one's one energy attack is the same as the old one's two energy attack. Are evolutions always better or are there tradeoffs?
01:25:46 <zzo38> Sometimes whether or not it is better depend on the situation.
01:27:07 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you prefer Pokemon cards or Magic: The Gathering cards?
01:27:18 <zzo38> I can play both games
01:28:02 <zzo38> Both are better. Although, I play the old Pokemon card game and not the new one anyways
01:28:36 <zzo38> There are situation in Pokemon card where you might play an evolution card solely to increase its retreat cost, in order that a recycle energy attached to it can be retrieved in order to power an attack of another card that does not do any damage. (I have done this.)
01:30:58 <quintopia> i just looked a quora question which gives a trivially easy math problem as a "very challenging problem that takes a long time". i'm worried that the "tutor" who posted it doesn't deserve the job...
01:37:31 <zzo38> You have to injure the candidates badly enough that they will not recover in time for the election.
01:51:07 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: We need to go back in time and stop Hitl- Hillary
01:53:08 <oerjan> bah just missed seeing a cut again
01:55:47 <oerjan> at most one more cut on the rightmost branch before the dire subbranch gets pruned more
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02:09:05 <oerjan> have you not been following the hydra news
02:11:58 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm trying to let http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml follow its cause with the automatic play setting.
02:13:32 <oerjan> i seem to have got a better setup than int-e did (he gave up at ~ 1.5M cuts despite having increased the speed), but worse than quintopia.
02:14:29 <oerjan> that is, after ~150k cuts i've still not reached the state quintopia said he was at last we discussed that
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02:16:47 <oerjan> my estimate that i'd get to that point in less than 100k cuts seems to be overoptimistic, but hopefully not wildly so.
02:17:11 <oerjan> (100k + the ~ 70k i had when making it.)
02:18:41 <oerjan> (hm, is it possible that the difficulty depends on something that differs between browsers / window size?
02:20:54 <oerjan> no, it's actually guaranteed win, it just takes a long time when using the extremely naive automatic algorithm
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02:21:32 <oerjan> there's a theorem saying the hydra will die no matter how you chop
02:22:36 <oerjan> you can do much faster with a manual strategy. i read ybden had managed in < 200 cuts earlier.
02:23:19 <oerjan> our theory is that the automatic strategy (always take leftmost head) is close to the worst possible.
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02:29:06 <shachaf> \oren\: you've been pretty hanabi lately
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02:45:09 <shachaf> That sounds more like a Lowdra.
02:45:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's ok for a first attempt ;)
02:46:26 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I gave it Molly, so it's definitely a Hydra
02:46:41 <oerjan> although it depends a lot on luck especially in the beginning, i think.
02:46:44 <shachaf> I know a pooch named Molly.
02:47:59 * oerjan wonders what Molly has to do with Hydras
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02:49:43 <oerjan> the first hit seems aquarium-related, although you'd give hydra to molly, not the other way around.
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02:51:22 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If you're genuinely confused, Molly is the street name for MDMA
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02:51:59 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: OK, but where's the joke?
02:53:01 * oerjan swats both hppavilion[1] and shachaf, just in case -----###
02:56:02 <oerjan> it's the most fantastic maze in the universe. no, _all_ the universes!
02:58:39 <oerjan> hm we put +n on the channel again, so that weirdness with HackEgo should not be happening.
02:58:47 <HackEgo> hyperbolic group//Hyperbolic groups are the best groups there are, they're totally awesome and cure cancer.
02:58:47 <HackEgo> hallucination//You are just imagining this wisdom entry.
02:59:08 <oerjan> looks like someone had that idea before.
02:59:22 <oerjan> `howg hyperbolic group
02:59:23 <shachaf> `cwlprits hyperbolic group
02:59:38 <HackEgo> <oerjan> le/rn hyperbolic group/Hyperbolic groups are the best groups there are, they\'re totally awesome and cure cancer. \ <oerjan> le/rn hyperbolic group/Hyperbolic groups are the best group there are, they\'re totally awesome and cure cancer.
03:02:29 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
03:02:37 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
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04:14:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whatiflist: not found
04:15:08 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*whatif*: No such file or directory
04:27:18 <hppavilion[1]> I'd love to see a 13-episode scripted series in which everybody on earth is teleported to the same place on earth- an area the size of Rhode Island (and, coincidentally, also actually Rhode Island), all jump at noon, and then the world grinds to a halt because everyone's in Rhode Island and the rest of the world has nobody operating things
04:30:42 <oerjan> oh the righmost dire branch is now siblingless
04:31:12 <oerjan> there's got to be some progress now
04:31:23 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: I think there would be more pressing problems before much technology fails.
04:31:35 <pikhq> Namely, a lack of potable drinking water.
04:31:54 <shachaf> pikhq: is that really the time to think about drugs hth
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04:32:46 <pikhq> Also, there would inevitably be multiple massive stampedes.
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04:33:35 <pikhq> Be a good time to be a vulture in Rhode Island though.
04:36:53 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: The show would be mostly about a small band of people who escape The Grand Shitstorm
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04:38:34 <Sgeo> Saw something claiming PTCGO can't be made fullscreen. They're wrong
04:44:17 <shachaf> oerjan has been stripped of his powers
04:44:23 <shachaf> he's like the rest of us mortals now
04:45:11 <pikhq> Actually, wait. That much people together is probably bad purely from a thermal point of view.
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05:05:17 <Sgeo> WHY is the AI sparing me?
05:05:25 <Sgeo> I lost a long time ago but it won't finish me off
05:10:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48978&oldid=48977 * Darkrifts * (+1337)
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05:22:30 <Sgeo> That took 30 minutes and I eventually just gave up
05:22:37 <Sgeo> Are Pokemon matches supposed to last that long?
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05:25:47 <pikhq> Oh, wait. TCG. I dunno.
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06:09:21 <hppavilion[2]> What is the US law distinguishing prostitution from porn production? Because I really don't see a clear distinction, and they're already similar enough that I don't see how they justify classifying prostitution as a crime
06:12:14 <Zekka> I would guess it varies by state
06:13:12 <Zekka> Google suggests I'm right, but take that with a grain of salt (I'm not a lawyer)
06:13:48 <Zekka> IIRC the standard for "is this porn?" is federal, but I don't know if there are standards for particular kinds of porn on the state level
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06:31:41 <pikhq> There's also no federal law on prostitution, at all.
06:32:11 <pikhq> And there is in fact one state where prostitution is legal.
06:32:25 <Zekka> Yeah, google turned it up, but I forgot which
06:33:33 <pikhq> But, it's illegal in Las Vegas.
06:35:03 <pikhq> Fortunately, The Strip is not in Las Vegas.
06:36:08 <fizzie> "-- located immediately south of the Las Vegas city limits in the unincorporated towns of Paradise and Winchester." Well, that's a name.
06:37:08 <shachaf> What, like Newcastle upon Tyne?
06:37:38 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
06:39:03 <pikhq> No, Paradise and Winchester are two different unincorporated towns.
06:40:35 <fizzie> Frankfurt an der Oder, the cheap knock-off of Frankfurt am Main.
06:46:15 <lambdabot> KSJC 230453Z 29007KT 10SM CLR 19/12 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP170 T01940117
06:46:19 <lambdabot> KOAK 230453Z 28006KT 10SM CLR 17/13 A3004 RMK AO2 SLP173 T01720128
06:46:40 <shachaf> Maybe this channel has some convolution experts.
06:46:46 <shachaf> 22:43 <shachaf> Is there a sort of convolution which is something like (f*g)(a) = \Sum_{x,y | x+y <= a} {f(x)g(y)} ?
06:46:49 <shachaf> 22:43 <shachaf> (Where normal convolution would use = instead of <=.)
06:46:51 <shachaf> 22:44 <shachaf> (To match Day convolution.)
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07:08:01 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might have found a single scenario in which patent law can be a good thing
07:10:32 <Sgeo> Is Magikarp always supposed to be bad?
07:11:01 <Sgeo> http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Magikarp_(Ancient_Origins_19) a 1/4 chance of landing a 30 attack?
07:11:09 <Sgeo> I think that's bad, I'm not certain
07:14:36 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: What kind of scenario is that?
07:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: You invent something genuinely novel and useful that people want, and you manufacture it somewhere that isn't horrifying (that is: in a factory that /doesn't/ need suicide nets)
07:16:15 <hppavilion[1]> If it wasn't patented, Apple would likely start making them too, and it would be cheaper (so people buy it) because it's manufactured by technically-not-slaves
07:16:29 <zzo38> I think still it would be no good though
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07:25:56 <pikhq> Sgeo: Yes, Magikarp is supposed to be bad.
07:26:42 <pikhq> Magikarp in the JRPG learns 3 moves (2 in the first one!): Splash, Tackle, and Flail.
07:26:51 <pikhq> Splash does nothing.
07:27:07 <pikhq> Tackle has 50 power (i.e. it's a fairly weak move)
07:27:41 <pikhq> Flail, the only move that makes Magikarp have any use itself, gets stronger the less HP it has.
07:27:50 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtyZMDQCA_Y
07:28:28 <Sgeo> (I don't remember offhand if this is NSFW)
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07:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> (Or is tackle not available in this particular iteration?)
07:31:54 <Sgeo> Ooh I forgot Ditto existed, I wonder wha it's like in TCG
07:32:14 <Sgeo> I was trying to think of the duplicatey pokemon, and kept thinking of Jiggypuff for some reason
07:32:20 <Sgeo> Maybe because of some brawl game?
07:32:57 <pikhq> You were thinking of Kirby, apparently.
07:34:03 <Sgeo> ...Jiggypuff is at least in that same brawl game, right?
07:34:42 <pikhq> Yes, Jigglypuff is in Smash Bros as well.
07:34:44 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, pikhq already mentioned Kirby, so my joke doesn't work
07:35:17 <pikhq> Jigglypuff, IIRC, is in *all* of the Smash games too.
07:36:07 * Sgeo suddenly wants Missingno. in the TCG
07:36:51 <Sgeo> There existed a TCG called MissingNO
07:38:20 <Sgeo> trading card game
07:41:29 <Sgeo> Maybe pokemon are actually interesting to read about
07:41:34 <Sgeo> Well, some of them
07:41:36 <hppavilion[1]> I find it hilarious when Christians talk about Jews negatively
07:41:48 * Sgeo wonders if the movies are any good
07:41:55 <Sgeo> I think I read a pokemon book once as a kid
07:42:24 <hppavilion[1]> When- going solely by the holy book- Jews are just Christians Lite (alt: Christians who haven't yet purchased the DLCquel)
07:44:28 <alercah> which, seeing as that's basically the foundation of Christianity
07:44:34 <alercah> is why they don't like them
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07:59:30 * Sgeo might look for a "rational" pokemon story
07:59:42 <Sgeo> (Using "rational" as the genre here)
08:00:19 <Sgeo> First need to read chapter of Mother of Learning
08:01:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=48979 * TuxCrafting * (+1763) Created page with "== Description == Gaot++ is a stack-based programming language with 2 types of commands: <code>baa</code>s and <code>bleet</code>s. Gaot++ have a instruction pointer going t..."
08:02:24 <hppavilion[1]> If trump donated all of his money (measured by net worth, which is probably about how much he has on hand because that's obviously how economics works) to Americans to help them with life, that would be enough...
08:03:13 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, better than nothing, and good for the REALLY poverty-y people
08:10:59 <hppavilion[1]> Compound interest is one thing, but I'm more a fan of complex interest
08:11:26 <hppavilion[1]> For explanation of complex interest, talk to \oren\
08:13:04 <shachaf> That comic doesn't seem very related.
08:31:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48980&oldid=48979 * TuxCrafting * (+201)
08:36:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48981&oldid=48980 * TuxCrafting * (+64)
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08:58:48 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It is in that it shows another instance of money being less powerful than we thought
08:59:00 <hppavilion[1]> Is it possible for there to be a complete, consistent system of morality?
09:05:03 <Sgeo> TV Tropes seems to interpret "Idiot Programming" and "Genius Programming" as inefficiency vs efficiency
09:08:43 <Taneb> Sgeo, from a non-programmer perspective, that's the most obvious interpretetion, I believe
09:12:03 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, that question reduces to "can a proper moral system exist in which 'a certain amount of elementary arithmetic' cannot be carried out"
09:12:55 <hppavilion[1]> (or, at least, that's a prerequisite; The inverse of Godel I isn't necessarily true AFAIK)
09:43:59 <Taneb> I think you can encode arithmetic in trolley problems
09:51:32 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Is that a funny bizarre statement or a completely serious bizarre statement?
10:14:40 <shachaf> In the US that would be spelled "trolly problems".
10:24:25 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], yes
10:25:20 <Taneb> Of course, "do nothing, ever" could be argued to be a complete, consistent system of morality
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14:14:46 <fungot> boily: it's interesting, yes. fame. mm. diet food.
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14:33:22 <fungot> int-e: ( i killed it? :) where would you simplify it?
14:42:28 <boily> fungot looks perfectly healthy to me. maybe the secret to his health comes from nasal food?
14:42:29 <fungot> boily: fortunatelly he's not communist :) it helped me concentrate on getting your code working on all the esolang interps it uses
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14:54:11 <int-e> fungot: please tell us more about your fascinating political agenda
14:54:11 <fungot> int-e: about half-way through
14:54:20 <fungot> int-e: there is a completely non-standard extension that a few days, i'm completely useless.
15:01:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orlando]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48982&oldid=44373 * Orlando * (+111)
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15:02:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orlando]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48983&oldid=48982 * Orlando * (+39)
15:02:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orlando]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48984&oldid=48983 * Orlando * (+1)
15:02:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orlando]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48985&oldid=48984 * Orlando * (+1)
15:02:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orlando]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48986&oldid=48985 * Orlando * (+0)
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15:51:44 * oerjan considered idling, but eventually didn't.
15:56:02 * gamemanj considers idling, but ironically ruins it by stating this.
15:56:27 <oerjan> gamemanj: i mean because clog was gone.
15:57:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 231450Z 28007KT 210V350 9999 FEW040 SCT080 BKN120 24/16 Q1017 NOSIG
15:57:45 <lambdabot> ENVA 231450Z 27011KT 9999 SCT020 BKN030 18/15 Q1020 RMK WIND 670FT 27010KT
16:14:29 <lambdabot> KATL 231452Z 21005KT 10SM FEW030 BKN200 BKN250 30/23 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP169 T03000233 51006
16:17:39 <int-e> gamemanj: I think idling is a myth.
16:18:33 <gamemanj> no-one would have believed, in the first months of 2016, that human affairs were being watched, from the timeless voids of IRC idlers...
16:19:06 <oerjan> fungot: you believe, right?
16:19:06 <fungot> oerjan: so there will be stuff i don't grok
16:19:15 <oerjan> fungot: well, possibly.
16:19:15 <fungot> oerjan: and true brilliance. eta reduction is ( lambda ( x) ( x
16:19:29 <oerjan> fungot: that's a given.
16:19:30 <fungot> oerjan: my dairy heater broke. i had another method when doing it from scratch, but not kilimanjaro's reason, or the universe implodes"
16:20:02 <oerjan> the hydra is approaching a major cut, i can feel it...
16:20:36 <quintopia> gamemanj: what about here in the last months of 2016
16:20:45 <int-e> oerjan: this is worse than watching a heated kettle of milk...
16:20:46 <oerjan> it just has to blow up a little more first.
16:20:50 <int-e> ...the milk *will* boil!
16:21:06 <gamemanj> quintopia: well, the idler invasion already happened, didn't it
16:21:39 <gamemanj> they all died because of bacteria on their keyboards
16:21:46 <oerjan> i wish madore hadn't placed the stop/start buttons so far from the canvas.
16:21:46 <int-e> oerjan: Please don't make me implement the hydra in Haskell or C++ just to prove that it can go into billions.
16:21:59 <int-e> ('merican billions)
16:22:02 <quintopia> oerjan: are you still watching the same dang auto-run of hydra from days ago?
16:22:08 <oerjan> int-e: oh i'm sure it can. but mine won't.
16:22:38 <gamemanj> quintopia: I'm surprised you didn't remember it
16:22:44 <int-e> oerjan: I'm sure it won't... there's only so many three quarter seconds in a year.
16:23:09 <quintopia> int-e: is there no way we can hack that script to speed it up?
16:24:00 <int-e> quintopia: there is, but I'm not sure how to do it on a loaded web page.
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16:24:12 <oerjan> int-e already did that. just because i'm insane enough to run it at normal speed...
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16:24:36 <int-e> quintopia: I mean, I did hack it. I made a better strategy too but oerjan doesn't want to hear about it.
16:26:22 <oerjan> gah the second last branch blew up a bit too
16:26:44 <oerjan> i'm sure i'll test out strategies... later.
16:27:42 <quintopia> int-e: i'm downloading it and editing the 750 on the callback to...say...50
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16:31:10 <oerjan> that's what int-e did when running that one he still gave up after 1.5 million cuts.
16:31:15 <gamemanj> quantum hydrae theory: for any situation involving a hydrae following sensible rules, there is a solution to be found through the correct set of branches.
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16:31:24 <gamemanj> (* may not actually be quantum.)
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16:32:01 <oerjan> it's so close now that i have to keep an eye on it.
16:32:33 <oerjan> quintopia: didn't you already run one that was pretty fast?
16:32:50 <oerjan> i'm still trying to get to those 3 normals you said you had.
16:33:20 <quintopia> oerjan: eh my computer crashed before it finished ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
16:33:45 <oerjan> i'm explicitly avoiding visiting reddit to try and decrease the chance my browser does that
16:35:30 <int-e> quintopia: I used 5 instead of 750 for http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/hydra.png (hmm, I didn't save a screenshot 1 million steps later)
16:35:41 <gamemanj> maybe it needs a "save" button
16:35:46 <int-e> I have to admit that oerjan's hydra looks less healthy than that.
16:36:20 <int-e> quintopia: the operative word was "on a loaded web page" though
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16:37:04 <int-e> perhaps one could use the javascript console to manually start the periodic timer
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16:37:42 <int-e> also oerjan is using IE which I'm totally clueless about
16:38:05 <quintopia> int-e: inspect element etc. lets you edit pages right in the browser. it's just easier to download. (what's the difference between a web loaded from a local file and a web page loaded from a remote server, when there are no remote embeds in the page?)
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16:41:14 <oerjan> inspect element is neat for those annoying web pages with huge bars
16:44:01 <quintopia> oerjan: okay i'm doing it again: http://imgur.com/q763tic
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16:44:19 <oerjan> i'm not visiting any other web pages right now, thanks :P
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16:44:48 <oerjan> of course "might happen any moment" and "will actually happen in a moment" are not quite the same here.
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16:46:44 <quintopia> oerjan: i'm at 39718 heads and the rightmost subtree is one dire on level 2 and one normal on level 3
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16:47:29 <oerjan> i'll have to reiterate my wonder whether the size limits vary by browser/screen
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16:48:10 <oerjan> otoh the initial depth probably matters a lot.
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16:50:07 <quintopia> oerjan: yes true. i'm now at 70189 chops and the rightmost does not extend to level 3
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16:52:24 <quintopia> i'm now down to my last possible dire neck (because it connects to the rightmost head, there is no way to create new dire necks when it gets expanded)
16:56:00 <quintopia> (Bachmann-Howard ordinal is the name of my Bachman Turner Overdrive cover band)
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16:57:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48987&oldid=48981 * Kc kennylau * (+2241)
17:01:49 <quintopia> hmm. how does one find the topmost head in this representation? Oh, there is a countDepth function, so you can just recurse on the child with the highest depth...
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17:12:14 <quintopia> oerjan: i changed the autoplay to always cut topmost head. it killed a pretty deep hydra in 493 chops. and a very very deep one in 868. this is before any optimizations like "dire necks first"
17:12:36 <quintopia> it basically chooses the leftmost of heads on the highest level
17:12:46 <oerjan> yeah that's been tried before
17:13:19 <quintopia> oerjan: do you think the other optimizations would improve it much?
17:13:26 <int-e> quintopia: it helps
17:13:45 <oerjan> i'm wondering what you'd achieve by using the theoretical ordinals
17:14:43 <quintopia> but i imagine they won't help much, since its the fine details of the magicProb function that really determine the best strategy here i think
17:14:47 <oerjan> (but i haven't looked at the theory)
17:14:55 <int-e> quintopia: I have a weighted path thing implemented (dire necks have weight two), but the most important effect is to prioritize dire necks on the deepest level
17:15:29 <int-e> quintopia: I have not tried to improve on that further... the whole process is way too random and I lack the intuition.
17:15:43 <int-e> quintopia: try it for yourself: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/hydra2.xhtml
17:15:54 <oerjan> int-e: deepest means highest?
17:16:06 <int-e> I'm thinking of trees.
17:16:28 <int-e> in the ordinary CS fashion. Madore got that wrong ;-)
17:16:44 <oerjan> there it tries to blow up again
17:17:28 <quintopia> int-e: he didn't get it wrong. the function is called "countDepth" after all
17:17:55 <int-e> I mean the display :P
17:18:37 <quintopia> int-e: oh true. every one knows that all /real/ trees have their roots at the top and the leaves dangling below
17:19:42 <quintopia> i asked for a proof of the hydra on quora and no answers
17:20:30 <oerjan> i don't think hydras are renowned for hanging upside down hth
17:20:35 <int-e> somebody linked to a writeup on Madore's website... by the title it sounded french though
17:20:52 <int-e> oerjan: they could be headcrabs.
17:21:33 <int-e> (now that would make halflife a much more interesting game... (disclaimer, I've never got very far in that game. I did encounter the headcrabs though))
17:22:51 <oerjan> every time i prepare to put my finger on the button it blows up again :P
17:29:00 -!- int-e has set topic: Teased by hydras | The interdisciplinary hub of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
17:29:25 -!- int-e has set topic: Teased by dying hydras | The interdisciplinary hub of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
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18:09:20 <oerjan> Milestone! https://imgur.com/a/hLtmM
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18:15:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48988&oldid=48987 * TuxCrafting * (+80)
18:15:55 <int-e> if it gets unlucky it'll die in a couple of dozen moves
18:16:40 <oerjan> nah. the dire segment blew up to 6 linked copies.
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18:17:08 <oerjan> and the rightmost path still has height 4. barely.
18:17:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48989&oldid=48988 * TuxCrafting * (+15)
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18:47:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48990&oldid=47318 * Kc kennylau * (+153) /* Implementations */
18:47:07 <fizzie> Today I saw the word "interactive" used as a noun, in a museum.
18:47:10 <fizzie> As in: "This interactive is temporarily out of order."
18:47:22 <fizzie> And they had labeled three different interactives that way.
18:48:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48991&oldid=48989 * Kc kennylau * (+243) /* Example programs */
18:49:56 <int-e> hmm interactive fiction
18:50:29 <oerjan> . o O ( more like int-e-r-active )
18:50:55 <oerjan> beat by my own thought bubble
18:52:28 <fizzie> In one of Neal Stephensons scifi books, "ractives" (VR theatre with audience participation, basically) have mostly replaced "passives" (movies etc.) as the popular-est form of entertainment.
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19:02:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48992&oldid=48991 * Kc kennylau * (+205)
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19:06:00 <Taneb> fizzie, I could concieve that happening in a few decades or so
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19:20:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gaot++]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48993&oldid=48992 * Kc kennylau * (+338) /* Example programs */
19:21:35 <ybden> quintopia: I ran autoplay on a hydra at a tiny interval, but after several hours and over 2.3 million chops, it was still going strong :/
19:22:00 <ybden> My computer was in dire need of a restart, so the hydra won.
19:23:03 <ybden> quintopia: Do you know of the smallest number of chops taken to kill a hydra?
19:25:27 <shachaf> You should've preserved the hydra across reboots.
19:26:01 <shachaf> Of course that's not easy with the JavaScript version. But with a formal representation using ordinals you would have more luck.
19:26:22 <shachaf> Formaldehydra is the best way to preserve it.
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19:31:29 * ybden . o o ( dehydrating makes it not rot )
19:32:09 <ybden> shachaf: What's the highest number of chops taken to kill a hydra thus far?
19:32:29 -!- int-e has set topic: Dehydration | The interdisciplinary hub of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
19:32:50 <shachaf> Goodstein numbrs pale in comparison to TREE numbers, though.
19:33:01 <int-e> ybden: I have a 1.5 Million on record for not killing a hydra yet.
19:33:09 <int-e> But lost the screenshot.
19:33:52 <int-e> anyway, goodstein is irrelevant because the hydra is very tame and reluctant to grow.
19:34:18 <ybden> http://ybden.vehk.de/up/2016-07-23-191309_1920x1080_scrot.png over 2.3 million
19:34:23 <shachaf> The hydra has randomness, though. #scow
19:34:34 <ybden> It wasn't being very tame then
19:35:24 <shachaf> I think having to fit on the screen makes the hydra extremely tame.
19:35:29 <ybden> Autoplay didn't manage to touch the rightmost three tips in several hours, rarely touching the fourth
19:36:14 <int-e> wtf, uncompressed png...
19:36:27 <ybden> Huh, does scrot not compress them? Apologies
19:37:18 <ybden> There's no option to compress it even; I'll have to make it invoke some other program
19:37:18 <pikhq> Huh, I thought I was the only person to have intentionally made an uncompressed PNG writer.
19:39:35 <shachaf> Is it easier than uncompressed GIF writers?
19:39:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48994&oldid=48951 * Darkrifts * (+406) Added info on compilation
19:40:19 <int-e> shachaf: for gif you have to convert to 256 colors, so yes, much easier.
19:40:39 <shachaf> People wrote uncompressed GIF writers to get around patent issues, in theory.
19:40:53 <pikhq> Though a bit more annoying just because it's got multiple endiannesses.
19:40:55 <shachaf> int-e: GIF can handle more than 256 colors.
19:41:52 <int-e> shachaf: citation needed
19:43:20 <int-e> people put up with the lack of colors because they want animations
19:43:45 <gamemanj> GIF nowadays is only good because animations everywhere
19:43:55 <zzo38> PNG supports animation too (although I think Microsoft program doesn't implement PNG animations maybe?)
19:44:13 <shachaf> int-e: https://www.w3.org/Graphics/GIF/spec-gif89a.txt
19:44:20 <shachaf> int-e: Each Image Data Block has its own Local Color Table.
19:44:38 <int-e> The Animated Portable Network Graphics (APNG) file format is an *extension* to the Portable Network Graphics (PNG) specification.
19:44:57 <shachaf> int-e: And can be a rectangle of arbitrary size and shape within the image frame.
19:45:14 <shachaf> (This is all one frame of an animated GIF, though some implementations treat each rectangle as a separate frame.)
19:45:44 <pikhq> And popular implementations, as well.
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19:46:40 <shachaf> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/SmallFullColourGIF.gif
19:47:48 <pikhq> Browsers insert 1 frame between each image data block. :(
19:48:42 <shachaf> They're only supposed to do it at GCE blocks, though.
19:48:51 <pikhq> There is a fairly clever workaround for that, at least. Make frame 1 a complete 256-color image, and then use the extra data blocks to add more color.
19:49:26 <shachaf> I thinkn sometimes you can work around it with clever disposal methods.
19:49:31 <shachaf> Though I bet those are buggy too.
19:50:03 <pikhq> https://tweakers.net/ext/f/L9kEhvvZMizHQ5SE4rDoyh9P/full.gif An example of working around it.
19:50:08 <shachaf> No one implements the flag that says to ait for user input before advancing to the next frame.
19:51:01 <int-e> shachaf: thanks. that's an awful hack.
19:51:04 <shachaf> For example mouse click or carriage return.
19:51:19 <int-e> shachaf: probably not intended by the original designers
19:51:21 <gamemanj> What use is that without proper backup?
19:51:40 <gamemanj> make it into a script kind of thing
19:53:05 <shachaf> GIF also has a standard extension for an ASCII art version of the picture.
19:53:10 <shachaf> In case your terminal doesn't support graphics.
19:53:36 <shachaf> I wonder whether you can make ASCII art basilisks.
19:53:42 <lambdabot> http://ansible.uk/writing/c-b-faq.html
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19:56:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48995&oldid=48978 * Darkrifts * (+630) Added compilation info and 26 character truth-machine implementation
19:57:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48996&oldid=48995 * Darkrifts * (+26) /* Compiling */
20:08:46 <gamemanj> do you prefer your keyboards with or without friction?
20:09:56 <gamemanj> actually, I thought up a good use for the animated GIF "wait for input"...
20:10:13 <gamemanj> Who Wants To Be A Millionaire. But all the answers are wrong.
20:10:29 <gamemanj> so you just keep on failing as that's the only outcome you can reach...
20:10:56 <gamemanj> you know, would it have killed them to have a "skip if char != <this>" flag...?
20:11:18 <gamemanj> Otherwise it makes the user input kind of useless, and I see why browsers would ignore it
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21:34:31 <quintopia> have you been properly relcomed? i don't remember seeing you here before
21:34:44 <ambrus> oh, I'm just using the wrong nick
21:34:47 -!- ambrus has changed nick to wob_jonas.
21:35:41 <quintopia> the best thing about eating at moes is the music
21:35:55 <fizzie> Juding from the file sizes of my scrot .png's, I'm pretty sure they're at least somewhat compressed.
21:36:14 <wob_jonas> I'm looking at specs and manuals and reviews of compact digital cameras do decide what I want to buy
21:36:32 <wob_jonas> some important things are hard to find out from them, so there's some luck-based elements
21:36:40 <wob_jonas> also, the reviews are sometimes contradictory
21:37:05 <quintopia> are you saying camera shopping is the latest craze in RPGs
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21:50:45 <int-e> > (6232011, 1920*1080*3) -- png size vs. raw pixel data size of ybden's screenshot
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21:52:34 <quintopia> shachaf: i believe your formaldehydra joke, with all its careful and laborious set-up, went way too underappreciated. Have a kudo.
21:52:57 <int-e> compressed png size using imagemagick's convert: 154575
21:53:00 <shachaf> quintopia: I was counting on oerjan to logread and swat me later or something.
21:53:25 <quintopia> shachaf: now you have guaranteed it
21:53:43 <shachaf> No, asking to be swatted is just *asking* not to be swatted.
21:55:41 <quintopia> but oerjan would be well aware of the strategy of avoiding a swatting by asking for it, and subvert it by swatting anyway!
21:56:32 <shachaf> He would have, until you mentioned it.
21:57:08 <quintopia> I only mentioned it to protect you from the swatting you would otherwise have received
21:57:17 <wob_jonas> I'm trying to read the manual for how good the controls are, especially for quick adjustments on the field; plus for cameras with a touchscreen, I'm checking the manual to make sure the touchscreen focus feature can be disabled.
21:57:31 <wob_jonas> Touchscreens are annoying, but they put them in many cameras.
21:58:02 <quintopia> wob_jonas: how about an old-school 3.5mm film camera? ;)
21:58:05 <wob_jonas> One thing that's hard to find out is how quickly the camera reacts to actually make photos, both when turning off and when it's already running.
21:58:31 <wob_jonas> quintopia: wait what? 3.5 mm? anyway, I'm too young for film cameras
21:59:53 <fizzie> I've just trusted dpreview when buying cameras.
22:00:38 <wob_jonas> fizzie: that's where I'm looking at, but even then, I can't tell reaction speed from that, some cameras don't have reviews by dpreview, and other reviews are sometimes contradictory
22:00:49 <pikhq> wob_jonas: The normal film size was *35* mm.
22:01:18 <pikhq> I don't know of any 3.5mm standards.
22:01:19 <wob_jonas> like, one review says the battery time is short, the other says it's long. about the same camera.
22:02:10 <wob_jonas> I can understand when one review says the controls are hard to use, and another says they're easy to use, because that depends on what you want to do with the camera.
22:05:08 <pikhq> There was a 16mm format, so that's something.
22:05:47 <wob_jonas> sure, there were lots of film standards
22:06:41 <pikhq> 3.5 mm, if used at all, would have to be in a microfilm system.
22:07:03 <fizzie> 8 mm is certainly a thing, though I would expect not for stills.
22:07:48 <fizzie> (Super-8 and all that.)
22:08:38 <wob_jonas> isn't microfilm when you take a normal size photographic film but compress a lot of text on it to store books in compact format, since text can be read even in small resolution?
22:08:57 <wob_jonas> for archiving documents in small spacr
22:09:41 <miketo> does gnu tar work with lzmicrofiche?
22:10:18 <fizzie> Huh. Turns out the standard 8mm film frame size is actually exactly 3.5 mm tall (and 4.8 mm wide).
22:10:48 <fizzie> (It's still not called "3.5 mm" though. But at least the number is there.)
22:11:20 <fizzie> I watched the Super Mario Land 1 one just now.
22:11:23 <Taneb> wob_jonas, I have had to use microfilm!
22:11:27 <fizzie> Had the list open in a tab.
22:11:34 <wob_jonas> I don't much appreciate the first person 3d story games, but there are a lot of arcade games shown that were great
22:12:15 <wob_jonas> Sparkster seemed interesting (it's a Sonic/Jazz style 2d platformer)
22:12:36 <wob_jonas> fizzie: Super Mario Land 1 was HORRIBLE
22:12:41 <wob_jonas> it's the worst speedrun I've ever seen
22:12:53 <wob_jonas> if you want to look speedruns for that game, look at older ones
22:13:03 <wob_jonas> it was ran much better in some older gd
22:13:54 <fizzie> There seems to be one from SGDQ 2012.
22:13:59 <quintopia> wob_jonas: i also have been catching up on all the ones i wasn't able to catch live
22:14:50 <wob_jonas> Oh, and there was this puzzle platformer Escape Goat, which seemed interesting, although it's hard to understand the puzzles from a speedrun
22:15:14 <quintopia> wob_jonas: the gimmick run was pretty good. the sm sunshine run was actually incredibly good. bouncey is actually the record holder and he pulled off some incredible tricks first try
22:15:15 <wob_jonas> Obviously the Super Metroid Any% race was worth to watch
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22:15:59 <quintopia> despite a major controller snafu, the blind SotN run was worth seeing
22:15:59 <wob_jonas> And the Tetris GM block was amazing as always
22:16:13 <wob_jonas> quintopia: yes, I've seen that! the blindfolded one
22:16:18 <quintopia> eh i quit watching the tetris one after TGM1. kind of boring to watch
22:16:27 <wob_jonas> The TAS block was underwhelming compared to earlier TAS blocks
22:16:46 <wob_jonas> especially not if you skip the setup times and watch only the game getting played
22:17:06 <int-e> I've played Escape Goat... it's very well made, but also quite difficult.
22:17:17 <int-e> (it was in some humble bundle)
22:17:18 <ais523> tetris was fun skipping setup times
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22:17:29 <wob_jonas> the 3d fsp adventures where you don't see anything of the story the game has, those are often boring to watch.
22:17:31 <ais523> but it probably needs a break, it's hard to add new content that hasn't already been seen
22:17:37 <quintopia> it's beause there are four tetris games on screen and you can only watch one, and it's just--too fast to understand.
22:17:48 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that doesn't make it boring
22:17:57 <wob_jonas> it's the slow-paced games that are boring
22:18:09 <wob_jonas> if you can only watch one and it's still fast-paced, you can always rewatch
22:18:31 <fizzie> ais523: In case you didn't notice, your new filter caught two attempted esolangs.org spammers. One of them then made a "Dfdhgfhj" page, presumably probing what does and doesn't get filtered. (I banned the two involved users manually after that.)
22:18:33 <quintopia> it's monotonous. it's the same thing for minutes on minutes
22:18:34 <wob_jonas> I usually find megaman games boring,
22:18:43 <quintopia> screen fills up with blocks. lights dance around.
22:18:57 -!- Melvar has joined.
22:19:37 <wob_jonas> Oh, and the Braid run was interesting too. And played quite well, with very few mistakes.
22:19:38 <quintopia> wob_jonas: if you like fast-paced runs, you surely enjoyed the defunct run
22:20:02 <int-e> quintopia: it may not be smart to discuss this on a publicly logged channel?
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22:20:15 <ais523> int-e: it's OK, the filter details are public anyway
22:20:19 <ais523> I could hide them but so far haven't seen a need to
22:20:39 <wob_jonas> oh, I'd like to mention Super Amazing Wagon Adventure. the game isn't very good, but together with the commentary it was hilarious
22:20:48 <ais523> also, the "action disallowed" message outright tells you how to get around the filter
22:21:07 <ais523> basically, the ban is on creating a page with a long name with your first edit, unless you also include a paragraph break in the page somewhere
22:21:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: esolangs.org spam filter
22:21:40 <quintopia> wob_jonas: i enjoyed the SAWA commentary quite a bit
22:21:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: I see. so no more Real Fast Nora's Hair Saloon 2: Shear Disaster Download?
22:22:07 <ais523> wob_jonas: depends on the spambot framework
22:22:24 <ais523> I have a strong suspicion that the spambot framework people are using at esolang has no method of specifying "write a newline in the page text"
22:22:31 <ais523> because spammers come up with a bunch of workarounds but can't do that
22:22:47 <ais523> OTOH, paragraph breaks are something that legitimate users very often put in their own pages
22:22:58 <ais523> also, the ban is only on your first edit, and you can edit the sandbox in order to get around it
22:23:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:91.200.12.0/24]] with an expiry time of 1 year (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): spam/vandalism against other people's user pages
22:23:57 <ais523> it's actually a /22 but I've only seen vandalism from the /24 range, I'll widen it if necessary
22:24:19 <ais523> fizzie: also it's a lot more than two spammers that have been caught by the filter now
22:24:38 <ais523> most were caught by filter 6
22:24:52 <ais523> which was there to catch a different spammer but seems to have caught many pages that the latest one tried
22:25:13 <ais523> you're right, only two were caught by the latest filter
22:25:45 <fizzie> I can't figure out what "PP SKS-LUGAN" *is*.
22:27:34 <quintopia> wob_jonas: yes i watched it. seemed very difficult. but i did not enjoy the game itself when i tried playing it
22:28:47 <ais523> fwiw, I started trying to geolocate the quickbooks scanners
22:29:11 <ais523> they're all from India, but not all from the same ISP, and some claim to be using different operating systems than others (that's fakeable but I'm inclined to think it's real in this case)
22:29:15 <wob_jonas> Oh, and that double-jump platformer, what was its name,
22:29:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AsuMagic * New user account
22:30:36 <wob_jonas> different from the other double jump games I've seen on gdq like Super Meat Boy or I'm the Boshy, because it's strictly grid-based, and the graphics is much more easy to follow
22:31:01 <wob_jonas> so if you like precision platformers, I recommend it
22:31:12 <wob_jonas> but if you don't like precision platformers, you won't enjoy it of course
22:31:25 <ais523> any ideas which befunge interp these spammers are using?
22:32:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:112.196.160.55]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (account creation disabled): very commonly used by spambots
22:33:19 <zzo38> I found hints for a game in UHS format, but the company that distributes the program only distributes the reader programs for DOS, Windows, Macintosh, and Amiga, and the writer program is only available for Windows; furthermore, documentation for file format is not available, and it is not free software or freeware. Therefore, I wrote my own implementation that can be used on Linux.
22:33:52 <fizzie> ais523: No, but I used first Google hit for "befunge interpreter" (http://www.bedroomlan.org/tools/befunge-playground) for testing it. Wouldn't surprise me if others followed the same logic as well.
22:34:26 <zzo38> (The format is not so difficult to figure out.)
22:34:38 <myname> wait, so people are actively attacking this wiki?
22:35:03 <wob_jonas> Isn't there some way they can just skip the whole giving the correct answer to befunge-captcha?
22:35:26 <ais523> myname: I believe it's a mass-spam framework that uses human captcha-solvers
22:35:56 <ais523> given how they seem to be able to solve any CAPTCHA we can come up with that isn't outright impossible
22:35:59 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Not as far as we know.
22:36:03 <ais523> but how bad they are at varying the content of their pages
22:36:28 <fizzie> Also, a quote from that Befunge playground page: "-- and as a way to practice JavaScript (not my favourite programming language [footnote: At least not back then — it's been growing in me since, though.]"
22:36:38 <fizzie> I wonder whether the choice of preposition -- in vs. on -- is accidental, or an intentional comment about JavaScript.
22:36:38 <wob_jonas> ais523: do you know for sure that they're filling the captcha answer correctly, rather than using another method?
22:36:42 <ais523> fizzie: also something very interested I just noticed
22:37:02 <ais523> out of the three attempted edits made by the recent spammers
22:37:04 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Not *for sure*, but if I change it to a "question with a random answer" CAPTCHA, they never manage to pass that.
22:37:15 <ais523> there was a "submit anyway" button on the page that didn't actually do anything
22:37:19 <ais523> it was tried on one of the three edits, but not the other two
22:37:26 <ais523> (that didn't do anything other than letting us know that it had been pressed)
22:37:41 <ais523> so I suspect there's human involvment in the edit submission part of things too
22:37:47 <ais523> presumably to catch any on-edit CAPTCHAs
22:37:57 <ais523> strangely, though, they don't just follow the advice there ("edit the Sandbox")
22:38:15 <ais523> so perhaps the spambot script is programmed to attempt resubmitting sometimes and not other times
22:38:22 <wob_jonas> Apparently if you already have an account, you can create an account without filling the captcha. Do you know from the logs that that's not what they're doing?
22:38:33 <ais523> (the button can also be rigged up to block anyone who clicks on it; that's been done in one filter which is very, very spambot-like, but not on most of them)
22:38:39 <ais523> wob_jonas: that's visible in the logs
22:39:25 <ais523> wob_jonas: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=newusers&user=&page=&year=&month=-1&hide_tag_log=1
22:39:37 <ais523> if it says "was created" then it was created via the normal, enCAPTCHAed means
22:40:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Extended Brainfuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48997&oldid=35674 * AsuMagic * (+927) /* The page should not be mentioning it helps improving speed of execution */ new section
22:40:53 <quintopia> how about a captcha that's just "here's a link to an irc web client ask the bot for the answer to the captcha"--and then you can just passively monitor the channel to see what happens
22:41:20 <wob_jonas> quintopia: that's always the fallback,
22:41:20 <fizzie> quintopia: That's what we use for the "impossible" CAPTCHA.
22:41:27 <ais523> quintopia: after fizzie put up the impossible captcha one of the spammers actually turned up here
22:41:30 <wob_jonas> but we monitor edits in the channel anyway
22:41:34 <ais523> btw, what does the impossible captcha look like?
22:42:26 <fizzie> ais523: I've varied it a bit every now and then, but the latest version was: "Sorry, we are having *very* persistent spammers. This question is currently impossible. In the meanwhile, try to find help on the <a href="/wiki/Esolang:Community_portal">freenode #esoteric channel</a>."
22:42:34 <fizzie> (Earlier it mentioned my nick.)
22:42:58 <fizzie> I did provide one person with the actual answer too, because they asked intelligently.
22:43:55 <ais523> there's some sites dealing with that sort of persistent spammer that I've seen that use an essay question as their PTCHA
22:45:32 <wob_jonas> there was some captcha thing that required you to fix a short program in some well-known programming language to conform to some description
22:45:57 <quintopia> wob_jonas: if they are farming captchas out to humans, that won't work either
22:46:14 <ais523> perhaps we should only give away accounts to people on the BF Joust hill
22:46:35 <Sgeo> t played BF Joust
22:46:53 <wob_jonas> ais523: that wouldn't work. I could modify an existing bf joust program slightly if you did that
22:47:04 <ais523> the point is that if you aren't cheating by blatantly copying someone else (which would admittedly be hard to check for)
22:47:17 <ais523> you need a lot of esolanging knowledge to do significantly well on the hill
22:47:27 <Sgeo> Maybe you need to make an esolang to get an account
22:47:30 <ais523> I guess you look for a program whose statistics are significantly different from the existing oens
22:47:44 <wob_jonas> Sgeo: NOOO! that would just lead to more STUPID esolangs
22:48:56 <ais523> OK, what about this: you need to submit a BF Joust program with a win/loss record better than 50%, and which doesn't have the same programs-it-wins-against and programs-it-loses-against as any existing program
22:50:03 <int-e> Let's put it this way... I wouldn't bother trying.
22:50:04 <wob_jonas> ais523: that would be hard. I wouldn't be able to do it
22:50:31 <wob_jonas> or maybe I would, but I'd try by cheating, modifying an existing good program to make it a little worse against some opponents
22:50:53 <wob_jonas> by tracing what it does and breaking some branch that occurs rarely but at least once in a winning gram
22:51:31 <ais523> wob_jonas: I wouldn't consider that cheating
22:51:39 <Sgeo> Can we just do rate limiting? One new person (determined by talking to them here) per day?
22:52:03 <Sgeo> I don't think people are clamoring at the bit to join
22:52:06 <ais523> in fact, it's something I'd consider most esolang enthusiasts to be able to do
22:52:06 <ais523> but most spambots not to be able to do
22:52:06 <ais523> Sgeo: the person-of-the-day would usually be a spammer, I think?
22:52:15 <ais523> but that's basically what the impossible captcha is, without the rate limit
22:52:36 <myname> i like the idea of fixing a bug
22:52:39 <wob_jonas> Could we ask people to solve golf questions?
22:52:52 <fizzie> It's inherently rate-limited in that people here will stop answering if 50 people all come in at the same time.
22:53:10 <ais523> wob_jonas: possibly, although people's golfing ability varies wildly
22:53:28 <fizzie> The "ask here for an account" thing probably works as a solution, but it's a little bit awkward. The channel's not *always* active, anyway.
22:53:45 <ais523> which reminds me, there are a ton of languages, like Perl and Ruby, where people have done hello worlds in anagol with not enough alphanums for them to contain the actual hello world string
22:53:47 <fizzie> Also wiki-philosophy, "everyone can edit" and all that.
22:53:59 <ais523> any ideas what trick's being used there?
22:54:16 <wob_jonas> Like, on a golf site, take a hole posed by a respected user, to which answers aren't revealed yet, but at least two respected golfer has solved it at least two days ago, in some popular language, and solve it in the same language at most 1.8 times as long as the shortest solution.
22:54:45 <wob_jonas> ais523: in perl you can write programs without any alphanumerical character, although that's difficult
22:54:58 <wob_jonas> with just few alphanumeric characters it's easier
22:55:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: no, I nkow that
22:55:09 <ais523> the thing is, this is /shorter/ than using the literal string
22:55:18 <ais523> like, my problem isn't how to do it at all, but how it leads to a shorter program
22:55:23 <wob_jonas> "people's golfing ability varies wildly" => people's bfjousting ability also vary
22:55:46 <wob_jonas> ais523: um, could it be using base64 unpack in perl? that's a common compression technique
22:56:36 <int-e> In principle there could be a list of such tasks and the person trying for an account could pick one of them to attack.
22:56:48 <ais523> wob_jonas: how does that produce the space? also, I don't think "Hello, world!" is short enough for that to improve compression
22:57:10 <ais523> we also know that the solution uses ASCII characters only
22:57:22 <ais523> (specifically, 6 alnum, 7 punctuation, and presumably 1 whitespace to make 14)
22:58:05 <wob_jonas> ais523: the typical idiom in perl is lc pack"u", because pack"u" is uuencode, which produces characters from \x20 to \x5f, which includes space, so lc pack"u" gives you space and numbers and most punctuation and all lowercase chars
22:58:33 <wob_jonas> the result is often evalled or s///ee-ed
22:58:50 <ais523> wob_jonas: this isn't going to make "Hello, world!\n" shorter
22:59:11 <ais523> also, "only ASCII" is not a restriction
22:59:18 <ais523> rather, the 14-char solution happens to be ASCII
22:59:29 <wob_jonas> yes, but pack"u" usually gives non-ascii source
22:59:29 <ais523> it doesn't say exec is denied
22:59:38 <ais523> so I'm wondering if it's calling /usr/bin/hello somehow
22:59:41 <wob_jonas> oh, then maybe it execs GNU hello from path
23:00:03 <ais523> that said, hello doesn't seem to be installed on the system
23:00:35 <myname> is there an hq9 interpreter? :D
23:01:19 <ais523> yep, it doesn't have hello
23:01:22 <ais523> I ran $,=$/;print</usr/bin/*>
23:01:40 <ais523> there also isn't an executable called hq9+ or any obvious variant
23:01:41 <wob_jonas> or maybe invokes golfscript or something like that
23:01:57 <wob_jonas> ais523: golfscript? or whichever language has a helloworld builtin
23:02:18 <ais523> gs2, goruby, etc. aren't in /usr/bin
23:02:20 <zzo38> I think goruby does?
23:02:42 <ais523> gs2 and goruby both do
23:02:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: goruby? really? I didn't know it had a hello
23:02:49 <ais523> gs2 has a shorter name so would probably be better for the purpose
23:02:56 <wob_jonas> ais523: somewhere else in the path?
23:03:03 <int-e> `` python -c 'import __hello__'
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23:03:37 <ais523> wob_jonas: goruby is basically just ruby with some changed functions and a hello world builtin
23:03:50 <int-e> (that's too long, and prints 'Hello world...' in the but yeah, that would be the basic idea)
23:03:58 <ais523> "`goruby`; print $!" prints "No such file or directory"
23:04:18 <ais523> so nowhere on the path
23:04:49 <ais523> also $^X is /usr/bin/perl
23:04:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, goruby is ruby with an autoload function that autoloads methods from any abbreviated name, plus some custom method aliases including infix operators for what you normally use alphabetic names, plus an Enum instance for Integer which is very useful
23:05:00 <ais523> so I assume that languages can't exec each other, only base systems
23:05:23 <wob_jonas> and I think some of Array's methods extended to Enum so that you can omit most .to_a
23:05:39 <wob_jonas> in such a way that some of it converts the resulting array back to the original type, for byte string handling
23:05:49 <wob_jonas> I didn't know it had custom functions that do stuff like hello world
23:07:23 <ais523> most golfing languages have a hello world builting
23:08:01 <wob_jonas> yes, the golfing languages of the style of gs2 or pyth or stuff with single byte commands do, but I didn't know goruby was like that
23:08:50 <int-e> why does nodejs contain "Hello, world!" as a string...
23:08:51 <wob_jonas> is it possible that it somehow abuses a hole in the sandbox to get information from elsewhere, like from another golf solution process started at the same time?
23:10:10 <wob_jonas> or more like, a different golf solution process pushes information into it
23:10:40 <wob_jonas> like, the solution is sleep 9, but another process finds its stdout and writes hello world into it
23:11:07 <myname> or in a tempfile. or a fifo
23:11:18 <wob_jonas> including even past holes that have since been fixed
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23:11:42 <ais523> wob_jonas: good point, it's problem 1
23:11:47 <ais523> so it could be a case of abuse of past holes
23:11:49 <quintopia> why did ais523 getting people to spam the bfjoust leaderboard in lieu of spamming the wiki?
23:11:59 <quintopia> i'd rather have a messy wiki than a messy bfjoust leaderboard
23:12:11 <ais523> quintopia: well the leaderboard doesn't change unless you actually get a program onto it
23:12:35 <quintopia> ais523: posting a copy of the top program gets a program onto it guaranteed
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23:12:57 <ais523> quintopia: right, part of our discussion was ways to combat that
23:14:23 <ybden> fizzie> Juding from the file sizes of my scrot .png's, I'm pretty sure they're at least somewhat compressed. ← I use -q 100, but I'm not sure how quality should affect compression considering it's lossless
23:14:47 <wob_jonas> make people have to invite an eso operator for a drink to register. do we have admins from both coasts of the US?
23:15:03 <quintopia> ais523: short of "rewriting the hill to forbid it" and "setting up a parallel hill that doesn't modify the real one" i don't see what combatting there is--and discussing ways of combatting abuse on the bfj hill, something that doesn't even occur now, is already tangential to combatting abuse on the wiki
23:15:38 <ais523> quintopia: you can not accept a program if its win/loss pattern is too similar to an existing one
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23:16:29 <quintopia> ais523: aka "rewrite the hill to forbid it"
23:16:31 <myname> wob_jonas: because the us is obviously everything that matters?
23:16:31 <fizzie> ybden: "For lossless compression formats, like png, low quality means high compression."
23:16:57 <wob_jonas> myname: no, but I know we have enough people from Europe
23:17:14 -!- flipFlop has joined.
23:17:16 <ybden> fizzie: Where's that? In the source?
23:17:31 -!- flipFlop has quit (Client Quit).
23:17:38 <fizzie> ybden: (Although I did actually read it from the source.)
23:17:49 <fizzie> It's got some sort of internal logic (low quality otherwise -> smaller files -> needs higher compression), but it's still pretty wonky.
23:18:11 <ybden> fizzie: Huh. Weird that it's not in the manpage, considering that the help output and the manpage are pretty much the same
23:18:40 <ybden> fizzie: I do recall that it made the images all speckly though
23:18:46 <ybden> Which should not be happening
23:18:54 <wob_jonas> an essay question isn't such a bad idea anyway. tell us anything about what you like and don't like in esolangs or similar, in between 150 and 3000 words.
23:18:56 <ybden> unless it was producing a JPEg instead
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23:19:22 <ais523> ybden: maybe it's reducing the color depth
23:19:23 <ais523> in which case the conversion is lossy due to losing the low-order bits of the color information
23:19:36 <ybden> I should test this
23:19:40 <oerjan> wob_jonas: afair we don't currently have _any_ active admins from the americas, either wiki or channel.
23:19:44 <ybden> Or, better still, write my own screenshot tool
23:20:11 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:20:16 <zzo38> If using X window then you can use "xwd" program to make a screenshots
23:20:53 <wob_jonas> I sometimes just use gimp to take screenshots
23:21:12 <wob_jonas> because I want to edit the screenshot a bit anyway, so why not create it right in the image editor?
23:21:15 <ais523> zzo38: is it possible to run an xwd process continuously that can be requested to make screenshots without exiting?
23:21:22 <ais523> I'm wondering about how to see the screen "inside" xvfb
23:21:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: there are like four or five programs similar to xvfb, and some of them offer that service
23:22:01 <wob_jonas> there's a VNC-based one, but there's more I don't know
23:22:04 <zzo38> You could make the shell script to do xwd continuously
23:23:58 <ais523> wob_jonas: actually what I'd really like
23:24:10 <ais523> would be an xvfb-like program that stored the screen-as-a-whole image in some memory internally
23:24:14 <ais523> that could be read using a debugger
23:25:00 <wob_jonas> ais523: dunno. maybe grep the channel logs for xvfb to find out what the other programs were
23:26:26 <fizzie> ais523: There's a Xvfb that provides you with a mmap
23:26:31 <wob_jonas> Or you could try ffmpeg or ImageMagick, I think they both have ways to input from an X screen, and then you can make them write a raw file to a pipe or something
23:26:34 <fizzie> 'd file you can use to inspect the screen.
23:26:47 <fizzie> ais523: Actually, that's just plain Xvfb.
23:26:51 <fizzie> ais523: See the "-fbdir" option.
23:27:18 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> Formaldehydra is the best way to preserve it. <-- -----###
23:27:38 <fizzie> "The following files are created if the -fbdir option is given. framebuffer-directory/Xvfb_screen<n>: Memory mapped file containing screen n's framebuffer memory, one file per screen. The file is in xwd format. Thus, taking a full-screen snapshot can be done with a file copy command, and the resulting snapshot will even contain the cursor image."
23:28:29 <ais523> that seems really useful
23:28:58 <wob_jonas> wait, wouldn't copying the file give you a potentially torn image, because reading the file isn't atomic?
23:29:31 <zzo38> Opening the file probably will be atomic though isn't it? I don't know but you can try and see if it is working?
23:29:39 <pikhq> The same is true of reading the screen.
23:29:56 <pikhq> (X doesn't do vsync very well)
23:38:51 <fizzie> (There's also a -shmem option, which "specifies that the framebuffer should be put in shared memory. The shared memory ID for each screen will be printed by the server. The shared memory is in xwd format." I don't expect it to be any more atomic, but it's an alternative.)
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23:54:45 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot disappeared again.
23:54:57 <oerjan> it may not be altogether stable.
23:55:20 <fizzie> I don't know what's up with it.
23:55:33 -!- fungot has joined.
23:57:53 <oerjan> fungot: what's up with you?
23:57:53 <fungot> oerjan: eval ( call/ cc is just magic, ok?"
23:58:47 <ais523> it's clearly following continuations to other places in the logs