00:01:44 <wob_jonas> you mean like tcsh, which can process labels and gotos in an interactive command-line between commands?
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00:18:50 <int-e> so I have a moderately cheating 12 byte hello world in bash.
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00:24:10 <wob_jonas> int-e: weren't we talking about perl?
00:24:23 <wob_jonas> I mean, for golfing, the language matters a lot
00:24:35 <int-e> oerjan: '23:53:45 <ais523> which reminds me, there are a ton of languages, like Perl and Ruby, where people have done hello worlds in anagol with not enough alphanums for them to contain the actual hello world string'
00:24:54 <int-e> wob_jonas: bash is in the same category.
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00:26:46 <wob_jonas> sorry, I mean, yes, 12 bytes in golf is impressive
00:27:19 <wob_jonas> (they call it manual, but a large part of it is about crazy automatic modes that I'll probably never use)
00:28:21 <tromp> BLC8 has no less than 16 12-byte hello world programs:)
00:28:47 <wob_jonas> tromp: does it have a hello world shorter than 12 bytes?
00:29:22 <tromp> but you can think of it as a 11.5 byte program rounded up
00:30:10 <tromp> it uses a half-byte cat program
00:31:37 <tromp> see http://www.ioccc.org/2012/tromp/hint.html
00:31:42 <wob_jonas> prooftechnique: brute force it if you want to know what it is
00:31:49 <wob_jonas> there aren't that many half-byte programs
00:32:00 <wob_jonas> yes, I know there's a halting problem and all, but still
00:38:08 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 10m 50s ago: <shachaf> Formaldehydra is the best way to preserve it. <-- -----###
00:38:15 <shachaf> quintopia: netcraft confirms it hth
00:38:52 <shachaf> But now I don't know whether that @tell came before or after oerjan logread the discussion.
00:39:57 <oerjan> shachaf: ok disclosure: i had seen it since i search for my nick first.
00:40:10 <oerjan> i hadn't thoroughly read it, though.
00:43:22 <quintopia> shachaf: nice job. nailed it. high five.
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01:11:05 <int-e> In any case this seems to be a file system exploration exercise to a very large extent. For example, this is a hello world shell script on anagol: ruby ../oldlocal/test.rb
01:13:56 <int-e> (which can be shortened to ruby ../o*/*b and a few other versions, which is quite competetive)
01:17:10 <int-e> tromp: you miscount the characters, I think. "Hello, world" is 12 bytes... and still missing the exclamation mark.
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01:30:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48998&oldid=48994 * Darkrifts * (+361) /* File I/O */
01:35:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=48999&oldid=48996 * Darkrifts * (+665) /* Documentation */
01:38:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOSCode]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49001&oldid=48998 * Darkrifts * (+106) /* Documentation */
01:41:53 <izabera> tromp: https://tromp.github.io/img/construct.9x19.gif what's this
01:44:37 <izabera> it seems weird to click the picture of an illegal position to get to your page for the number of legal positions
01:49:22 <Sgeo> Just downloaded the Kindle PC program
01:49:42 <Sgeo> The font size that I'm comfortable with on windowed mode is too small for me in fullscreen mode :(
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01:56:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49002&oldid=48999 * Darkrifts * (+14) /* Documentation */
01:56:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49003&oldid=49002 * Darkrifts * (+0) /* Documentation */
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02:15:52 <HackEgo> iaglium: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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02:34:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49004&oldid=49003 * Darkrifts * (+44) /* Unexpected behavior */
02:35:22 <boily> prhellooftechelloniquello!
02:42:21 <Sgeo> I don't understand Rare Candy in the TCG, isn't that how normal evolution works?
02:43:02 <oerjan> `` cd wisdom; ls *porth*
02:43:14 <Sgeo> Oh, it skips the stage 1?
02:43:24 <HackEgo> Hellonfused one. Porthellos are the standard greeting format in #esoteric. Best enjoyed with some thé or caffè and a fternooner.
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02:48:23 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
02:51:23 <\oren\> why are the quotes weird for danish and Norwegian, but Swedish has normal quotes?
02:52:30 <\oren\> Wait.. why does the sweidsh one start with a ” and not a “?
02:52:43 <boily> he\\oren\. those are the standard quotation marks according to their respective languages hth
02:52:58 * oerjan swats \oren\ for cultural bias -----###
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02:54:21 <\oren\> Really, swedish mandates both starting and ending with a ”?
02:55:01 <oerjan> the hydra's rightmost dire group is now down to two segments.
02:55:32 <oerjan> as opposed to the six earlier today.
02:55:56 <boily> what is this hydra y'all are speaking of?
02:56:05 <oerjan> http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml
02:56:17 <boily> \oren\: that's the way it is. or at least the wikipédia way. hth.
03:03:08 <\oren\> boily: I looked it up. Apparently hungarian quoting starts like a german and ends like a swede
03:03:34 <boily> quotations are weird.
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03:04:22 <\oren\> I prefer to have separate beginning and ending quotes
03:04:50 <HackEgo> supercalifragilisticexponential growth//Supercalifragilisticexponential growth leaves Graham's number in the dust.
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03:16:24 <quintopia> oerjan: does it leave it in cantor's dust? twh
03:25:47 <izabera> useful resources for unicode http://www.macchiato.com/
03:27:13 <quintopia> useful information for delicious espresso
03:28:26 <oerjan> i hit the wrong button and the hydra is gone.
03:28:45 <\oren\> expresso is best enjoyed with foamed milk
03:29:16 <quintopia> next time run it at full cps (chops per second)
03:30:11 <\oren\> actually, foamed milk is really good even by itslf
03:36:24 <oerjan> i have no interest in that.
03:37:17 <\oren\> oerjan: you don't like milk?
03:37:49 <oerjan> that was to quintopia hth
03:38:14 <oerjan> also my stomach doesn't cope with hot milk.
03:38:47 <quintopia> oerjan: what do you have interest in? have you now lost all interest in hydrae
03:38:52 <oerjan> bah let's try some manual strategy.
03:39:09 <oerjan> here we have a depth 6 hydra...
03:50:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Apple3.14]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49006&oldid=48962 * Conor O'Brien * (+1) /* Implementation */
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03:57:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bynary/implementation.js]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49007 * Conor O'Brien * (+3054) Created page with "An implementation of [[Bynary]] written in node js by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. Make sure you `npm install readwrite` before running. == Implementation == const rw = require("..."
03:57:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49008&oldid=48967 * Conor O'Brien * (+38) /* Languages I have implemented */
03:57:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bynary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49009&oldid=36112 * Conor O'Brien * (+136)
03:59:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bynary]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49010&oldid=49009 * Conor O'Brien * (-2) /* Implementation */
04:13:55 <oerjan> enough of that. now reddit ->
04:23:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FOS-X]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49011&oldid=49004 * Darkrifts * (+0) /* Documentation */
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05:03:56 * Sgeo vaguely wonders if Hex TCG is any good
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05:17:51 <hppavilion[1]> I just started listening to a video (https://youtu.be/LMMSEZk7Eqo, if you're curious)
05:18:06 <hppavilion[1]> And I noticed something I feel I should have picked up on years ago
05:18:26 <hppavilion[1]> The way the audio is set up for my headphones makes it sound like the music is coming from /inside/ my head
05:18:32 <Sgeo> What is that music
05:21:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49012&oldid=48990 * Darkrifts * (+190) /* Implementations */
05:31:19 <hppavilion[1]> ...why is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_August_2016 a thing?
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05:45:54 <zzo38> How to convert a grammar to optimized so that the right side can have only up to one terminal and only at the beginning, and that if it contains actions then it contains nothing else?
05:51:43 <Sgeo> "Look through your deck. Shuffle your deck afterward.
05:52:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Calcutape]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49013&oldid=47351 * Darkrifts * (+350)
05:52:43 <Sgeo> I assume a good player should never have a need for that. And there goes hope that PTCGO has a UI that reminds you of your deck (do any card games have that?)
05:53:18 <zzo38> For Pokemon card, six cards are set aside at the beginning, so you might not know what cards remain until you can look.
05:53:44 <Sgeo> Oh, good point
05:53:45 <shachaf> Shuffling your deck isn't useful in PTCGO?
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06:06:34 <prooftechnique> Is that like Pokémon Go, but you catch cards instead of animated monsters? Seems like a niche market
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09:01:15 <zzo38> The stuff to convert grammar I mentioned, I think the last part it is not difficult (I can think of it) but also I think it is wrong anyways so is irrelevant, other stuff I may be able to think of by myself anyways. But there are other problems anyways that I have not mentioned
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09:09:32 <zzo38> This book might help too
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09:31:31 <hppavilion[1]> An interesting thing about English (and indeed, most natural languages) is that it's beyond context sensitive
09:32:07 <hppavilion[1]> Because the way you talk necessarily changes based on the environment of the discussion- who you are, who you're talking to, and sometimes even the environment
09:32:45 <shachaf> "If a language is not regular, it requires a machine with at least Ω(log log n) space to recognize (where n is the input size).[22] In other words, DSPACE(o(log log n)) equals the class of regular languages."
09:33:02 <shachaf> int-e: Is that sort of comparison of Ω and o legitimate?
09:33:09 <hppavilion[1]> But when talking to a sibling, you're more likely to just say "dad"
09:34:49 <zzo38> You can also have many English words that have many meanings, can be confusing and ambiguous, and many logic also isn't work with English speaking so well, so in addition to beyond context sensitive there is even more than that too.
09:34:51 <hppavilion[1]> (Now that I think about it, who do people with two fathers discuss their father? I assume they reference them by name, but then what about when trying to get the attention of one but not specifically the other? In a straight couple you'd just say "mom" or "dad", but if your parents are same-sex I guess you'd either have to use their names or create a separate system ("dad" and "dud" perhaps?))
09:35:30 <hppavilion[1]> But you usually don't say "dad" when talking to a grandparent about your father
09:35:50 <hppavilion[1]> And it isn't linked to which side of the family they're on
09:36:40 <hppavilion[1]> But in an emotional-public context- for example, a sad Facebook post after the death of your father- you're likely to call them "Dad" instead of "my dad"
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09:49:11 <izabera> at some point increasing the resolution will become less and less appealing
10:13:41 <izabera> i found out that my long forgotten youtube chan is still there
10:14:01 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwynSN_DBSI full of wizard101 videos like this one
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11:01:44 <int-e> shachaf: well the two sets Ω(log log n) and o(log log n) are certainly disjoint and the latter contains the regular languages and the former all the rest.
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11:03:54 <int-e> shachaf: of course it would be wrong to think that Ω(log log n) and o(log log n) are complements of each other.
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11:06:42 <int-e> wob_jonas: what's the cheapest way for perl to invoke an external program and print its output?
11:07:12 <int-e> (I'm wondering whether the perl hello world entries are based on the same trick as the shell ones)
11:09:10 <wob_jonas> int-e: it depends. it can be exec"foo", or print`foo`, or say`foo`, or `foo 2>&1`, or just `foo` if it's printing to stderr, or just #!foo : if there's a shebang line but it doesn't mention perl, then I think perl will helpfully attempt to run the program in the shebang line
11:09:39 <shachaf> int-e: Do you mean DSPACE() in the first sentence?
11:09:41 <wob_jonas> int-e: I don't know which of these work in the case of anagolf
11:10:15 <int-e> ah, the shebang it is.
11:10:18 <wob_jonas> int-e: you can also try to check existing revealed perl solutions on anagolf, or ask mtve who's sometimes in this channel
11:10:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: and I think I'm missing some others
11:11:14 <wob_jonas> oh yes, there was the non-golf but VERY sneaky unshift"foo|";print<>
11:11:38 <wob_jonas> um, but anyway, get "foo|" onto @ARGV and then <>
11:11:44 <wob_jonas> there was some short sneaky way to do that
11:11:55 <int-e> so that leaves one puzzle... how on earth does (or did) the 11 character bash entry work.
11:12:00 <wob_jonas> probably not enough for this golf, but it features in obfu
11:12:19 <wob_jonas> int-e: could it be using a full path for an executable not in PATH ?
11:12:32 <wob_jonas> like, there may be a directory containing the interpreters for all languages or something?
11:13:26 <int-e> 02:11:05 <int-e> In any case this seems to be a file system exploration exercise to a very large extent. For example, this is a hello world shell script on anagol: ruby ../oldlocal/test.rb
11:14:08 <wob_jonas> and in bash it uses wildcards like /*/*/*/h*+ or something which happens to expand to /usr/local/bin/hq9+ /something/irrelevant/containing/letterh
11:14:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, anagol can be like that
11:14:48 <wob_jonas> you remember all the programs that depend on the pid or even the time you run them
11:14:56 <int-e> anyway I think that's more than enough of a hint.
11:15:15 <int-e> yeah I was looking for an angle to use the pid... didn't find any in this case.
11:16:08 <int-e> I was thinking along the lines of `find`[$$]
11:16:35 <wob_jonas> how old is anagolf? could there have been a program that worked only for one second at epoch time 1234567890 in 2009-02 ?
11:17:24 <int-e> well, we have a stamp for the 11 byte bash entry: 2008/01/30 16:34:13
11:18:07 <int-e> and it's quite possible that it got broken later
11:18:57 <int-e> 02:13:56 <int-e> (which can be shortened to ruby ../o*/*b and a few other versions, which is quite competetive) <-- once you do stuff like that it obviously becomes very fragile.
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11:27:22 <int-e> But I find it highly amusing that the anagol server has a hello world program right under our noses... okay... once you move aside a pile of newspapaer and some old food.
11:28:47 <wob_jonas> int-e: that's normal. what computer doesn't have a hello-world program? are you thinking of non-unix systems which have no useful command-line utilities installed, so you can't even grep in a file or add two numbers without installing something?
11:30:01 <int-e> wob_jonas: I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised by how many GNU core utils do *not* implement any Hello, world! easter egg.
11:31:04 <wob_jonas> we should get a command-line hello world and a libc hello world, both such that they can print all the variations in case and punctuation, in the next revision of POSIX
11:34:09 <wob_jonas> Does busybox have a hello world command in it yet?
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11:56:53 <int-e> `hello does this take any arguments?
11:58:12 <wob_jonas> hey, don't delete it! we need a hello world executable conveniently accessible
11:58:54 <int-e> well it should do more than just that, I think
12:03:24 <int-e> well, sanity is overrated. it should be mildly interesting in my view... do something with an argument, perhaps be a bit random...
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12:04:11 <HackEgo> shuf: invalid option -- '1' \ Try `shuf --help' for more information.
12:04:45 <int-e> `` shuf -n 1 quotes
12:04:45 <wob_jonas> ``` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''$c=unpack"h",pack"h",$ARGV[0]",($c&4?"w":"W"),"orld",($c&8?"."),"\n";' &&chmod -c a+x $e
12:04:59 <HackEgo> mode of `bin/hello' changed from 0644 (rw-r--r--) to 0755 (rwxr-xr-x)
12:05:01 <HackEgo> <Deewiant> Reality isn't a part of physics
12:05:05 <HackEgo> String found where operator expected at /hackenv/bin/hello line 2, near "]",($c&4?"" \ (Missing operator before ",($c&4?"?) \ String found where operator expected at /hackenv/bin/hello line 2, near "w":"" \ Bareword found where operator expected at /hackenv/bin/hello line 2, near "":"W" \ (Missing operator before W?) \ String found where operator
12:05:16 <wob_jonas> ``` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''$c=unpack"h",pack"h",$ARGV[0]",($c&4?"w":"W"),"orld",($c&8?".":""),"\n";' &&chmod -c a+x $e
12:05:26 <HackEgo> String found where operator expected at /hackenv/bin/hello line 2, near "]",($c&4?"" \ (Missing operator before ",($c&4?"?) \ String found where operator expected at /hackenv/bin/hello line 2, near "w":"" \ Bareword found where operator expected at /hackenv/bin/hello line 2, near "":"W" \ (Missing operator before W?) \ String found where operator
12:06:47 <HackEgo> args \ fruit \ sh \ spline \ spout \ tempcmd \ testcmd \ tmp_jonas
12:06:50 <wob_jonas> ``` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''$c=unpack"h",pack"h",$ARGV[0];print+($c&1?"H":"h"),"ello",($c&2?"":","),($c&4?" W":" w"),"orld",($c&8?".":""),"\n";'
12:07:16 <int-e> `` exec >tmp/foo; echo 1; echo 3; echo 2
12:08:21 <int-e> Hmm, no exclamation mark.
12:08:23 <wob_jonas> ``` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''$c=unpack"C",pack"h",$ARGV[0];print+($c&1?"H":"h"),"ello",($c&2?"":","),($c&4?" W":" w"),"orld",($c&8?".":""),"\n";'
12:08:48 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh, we can add that as an option too
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12:09:13 <int-e> . o O ( and !!!1 )
12:09:26 <wob_jonas> ``` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''$c=unpack"C",pack"h2",$ARGV[0];print+($c&1?"H":"h"),"ello",($c&2?"":","),($c&4?" W":" w"),"orld",($c&16?"!":$c&8?".":""),($c&32?"":"\n");'
12:10:31 <int-e> nah I just wanted the Hello, world! to be covered as well
12:11:00 <int-e> Which seems to be the most common one, really. At least that's the impression from inside my bubble.
12:11:11 <wob_jonas> I can't follow which one is the most common really
12:11:29 <wob_jonas> also, maybe this should be changed so you only need one character for an argument, rather than two
12:11:39 <wob_jonas> there's still only 48 outputs so it would be possible
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12:14:48 <HackEgo> cat: `.': No such file or directory
12:18:25 <wob_jonas> ``` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''$c=unpack"C",$ARGV[0];print+($c&1?"H":"h"),"ello",($c&2?"":","),($c&4?" W":" w"),"orld",($c&16?"!":$c&8?".":""),($c&32?"":"\n");'
12:21:48 <wob_jonas> ``` e=bin/hello;>$e echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''$c=unpack"C",$ARGV[0];print+($c&1?"H":"h"),"ello",($c&2?"":","),($c&4?" W":" w"),"orld",($c&16?$c&8?",":"!":$c&8?".":""),($c&32?"":"\n");'
12:22:50 <wob_jonas> upper vs lower case tells whether it outputs a newline
12:24:20 <izabera> `` time seq 1000000 > /dev/null; time seq 1 2 1000000 > /dev/null
12:24:24 <HackEgo> real: 0m2.102s, user: 0m2.440s, sys: 0m0.000s \ real: 0m0.495s, user: 0m0.480s, sys: 0m0.000s
12:24:40 <izabera> `` time seq 1000000 > /dev/null; time seq 1 2 1000000 > /dev/null
12:24:43 <HackEgo> real: 0m0.993s, user: 0m2.240s, sys: 0m0.000s \ real: 0m0.469s, user: 0m0.460s, sys: 0m0.000s
12:24:56 <izabera> ok it makes no sense to time stuff on hackego
12:25:42 <wob_jonas> izabera: it usually makes no sense to time stuff anywhere. you usually get times for something other than what you wanted to measure.
12:26:11 <izabera> it's usually not nearly as skewed
12:26:34 <wob_jonas> sure, but HackEgo sometimes responds like a minute after your query, so what do you expect?
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12:57:26 <izabera> the awkward moment when github says i have 0.2% c++ in my code and it's all c
12:58:14 <lifthrasiir> you are using impure C with C++'s convention, so you are bad
12:58:59 * izabera checks if there's any new or delete in the code... nope
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13:33:06 <wob_jonas> `learn anagol is Anarchy Golf, code golf server at http://golf.shinh.org/
13:33:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'anagol': anagol is Anarchy Golf, code golf server at http://golf.shinh.org/
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14:13:42 <izabera> I JUST INVENTED THE BEST THING EVER
14:14:21 <wob_jonas> izabera: people do that, but give the macro a saner name
14:29:59 <wob_jonas> also, if you do that, you'll be screwed at the default
14:31:18 <izabera> besides, nothing's stopping you from #define default break; default
14:33:09 <wob_jonas> well, technically you can't define either, because the standard doesn't permit you to define keywords, and obviously that's for a good reason, it could break library macros and stuff, but oh who cares
14:33:28 <wob_jonas> also, #define default break; default is worse because then you can no longer declare defaulted member functions
14:33:36 <alercah> You're allowed to if you don't use the stdlib at all, iirc
14:33:55 <wob_jonas> alercah: I don't think you're allowed even then
14:34:46 <wob_jonas> if, for, and goto are the only flow controls real men use
14:34:53 <alercah> you can't #define library names if you use the stdlib, but you can if you don't
14:35:15 <izabera> wob_jonas: no need for for with if+goto
14:36:01 <wob_jonas> alercah: me. for(;foo;) isn't actually longer than while(foo), so why bother learning two different loop control constructs when one is better than the other in all respects
14:37:03 <alercah> if you're encouraging shitty control flow
14:37:06 <wob_jonas> plus, if you only use if, for, goto then you can read the code even without knowing English, because you can recognize the different syntaxes without having to remember what the English keywords are
14:37:08 <izabera> alercah: he's still a padawan
14:37:25 <alercah> just use GCC's computed labels extension
14:37:26 <wob_jonas> alercah: for(;;) is usually shorter than if-goto
14:37:56 <alercah> GCC doesn't have computed comefrom
14:38:08 <alercah> wob_jonas: wait, is the objective to use shitty control flow or to golf
14:38:32 <wob_jonas> it's to not make the language more complicated for no reason
14:38:51 <wob_jonas> do you, like, use unless in perl? I don't, because if(! is just easier to remember
14:39:07 <alercah> I submit that your argument is inconsistent
14:39:15 <alercah> if switch is complicated "for no reason", so are loops
14:39:19 <int-e> wob_jonas: I've used unless.
14:39:28 <wob_jonas> even when you need a parenthesis, if(!(foo bar)) is shorter than unless(foo bar)
14:39:34 * int-e isn't much of a perl hacker though
14:40:02 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, me too, in those very old codes I have that I'm ashamed to read now. the worst part is where they don't put a space before equals signs for assignment.
14:40:10 <int-e> "unless" gives some insight into the programmer's intent.
14:40:24 <int-e> potentially, at least.
14:40:36 <alercah> because writing if (!...) { } else { } always feels weird
14:40:47 <wob_jonas> that reminds me to S-Lang, which uses the strange syntax !if instead of unless
14:40:52 <int-e> wob_jonas: note, I'd only use the statement form, foo unless bar;
14:40:57 <alercah> but sometimes is less intuitive
14:41:02 <alercah> foo unless bar is very useful
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14:51:46 <\oren\> #define brase break; case
14:52:16 <\oren\> #define ul(x) if(!(x))
14:52:34 <\oren\> #define ut(x) while(!(x))
14:55:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\: or just see the one and two letter macros in the source code of K
14:56:16 <wob_jonas> I think it has a #define I long or something liek that
14:56:37 <wob_jonas> and something like #define R(x) for(int n=0;n<x;n++)
14:56:50 <wob_jonas> there are dozens of such macros in it
14:57:05 <wob_jonas> It also has one-letter identifiers, like structure names
14:58:28 <int-e> #define sut struct ---- what.
14:59:07 <wob_jonas> oh, and I think geordi has some short mode where it defines a ton of three-letter macros
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14:59:35 <int-e> and in any case these abbreviations are not worth giving my brain's recognition of said keywords for.
14:59:58 <int-e> (also I'd need to customize syntax highlighting and indentation... not worth the effort)
15:00:22 <int-e> maybe those make sense as input abbreviations though
15:00:53 <int-e> who is geordi and why would they be here
15:01:37 <wob_jonas> on #geordi , topic there gives url with info
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15:01:53 <nortti> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiG1stRg8BM
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15:13:26 <fizzie> wob_jonas: You *are* allowed to define macros identical to keywords if you don't include any standard headers.
15:13:29 <fizzie> wob_jonas: The only place that prohibits it is in C11 7.1.2p4, and it just says: "The program shall not have any macros with names lexically identical to keywords currently defined prior to the inclusion of the header or when any macro defined in the header is expanded."
15:14:41 <fizzie> Unfortunately macros can't expand to preprocessing directives -- otherwise you could #define switch to #define case, and #define hctiws to be } + #undef of case.
15:15:16 <fizzie> Maybe "unfortunately" isn't quite the right word.
15:16:03 <int-e> and there have been IOCCC entries that have to be preprocessed twice
15:16:06 <wob_jonas> Well, even with the current rules, people manage to use the preprocessor in very surprising games. It's sort of like an esoteric language really.
15:16:17 <int-e> (and, perhaps, even more often than that)
15:16:52 <int-e> yes, conditional #include is bad enough
15:17:56 <wob_jonas> and indirect includes, and token concatenation together with macros with arguments, especially vararg arguments, and macros that can expand to unbalanced parenthesis or commas
15:25:45 <fizzie> https://github.com/rofl0r/order-pp
15:25:53 <fizzie> (A relatively little-known gem.)
15:26:22 <fizzie> (Mostly see the 'example' directory.)
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17:21:15 <\oren\> fizzie: macros can however, expand to virtual template functions
17:22:00 <\oren\> and this is apparently something not forbidden by our coding standards
17:23:12 <\oren\> * virtual *variadic* template functions
17:23:42 <wob_jonas> well, there are a lot of things that aren't explicitly forbidden by our coding standards...
17:23:48 <wob_jonas> but that doesn't make them a good idea
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23:22:31 <wob_jonas> The Ebay website's Paypal payment dialog rounds numbers so that the extra precision doesn't distract you. It shows you the easily readable "Exchange rate: 1.00 HUF = GBP 0.00", instead of the confusing "1 HUF = 0.00256178 GBP" which has way too many digits to be useful.
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23:22:50 <wob_jonas> These people know how to design streamlined user interfaces.
23:23:27 <myname> so,you can get anything for free? that's nice
23:23:47 <wob_jonas> myname: no, the opposite. I have to pay infinite HUF to cover the price in GBP, no matter what that price is
23:25:04 <lambdabot> LOWI 242150Z AUTO 27003KT 9999 -RA FEW005 BKN048 18/17 Q1021
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23:26:57 <wob_jonas> myname: the rounding is for display only, it does actually use the correct rate 1 HUF = 0.002562 for computing the amount deducted
23:27:32 <wob_jonas> no, it's not too bad. I couldn't afford infinite HUF for this.
23:29:39 <int-e> you could try to sell something for a penny first
23:30:05 <wob_jonas> int-e: the currency buy rate and sale rate are different
23:30:35 <wob_jonas> although the problem is, if the buyer wants a refund, I won't be able to afford to pay back the penny
23:31:28 <wob_jonas> not even if they payed me the penny first and I got 4 HUF for it or something
23:38:25 <lambdabot> EGLL 242220Z 22007KT 4000 -DZ OVC006 19/18 Q1018 BECMG 9999 BKN014
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