00:00:09 <hppavilion[1]> Drama going on in some of my online friends' lives
00:04:36 <izabera> does someone know something specific that changed from posix 2008 to 2013?
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00:07:09 <pikhq> Not off the top of my head, but any such changes should be minimal: 2013 merely had some corrigenda applied to 2008's text.
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00:28:19 <fizzie> izabera: "This 2013 Edition includes IEEE Std 1003.1-2008/Cor 1-2013 incorporated into IEEE Std 1003.1-2008 (the base document). The 2013 edition incorporates Technical Corrigendum 1 addressing problems discovered since the approval of the 2008 edition."
00:28:33 <fizzie> izabera: So you can just peruse the TC1: https://webstore.iec.ch/corrigenda/iso/isoiecieee9945-cor1%7Bed1.0%7Den.pdf
00:29:28 <fizzie> (321 pages might not quite count as "minimal" in an absolute sense, but maybe if measured as a fraction of the full thing.)
00:34:43 <fizzie> Technically, I guess that's the ISO/IEC bizarro-universe variant of it -- that is, it's "ISO/IEC/IEEE 9945:2009 Technical Corridgendum 1" which you would apply as a patch to the "ISO/IEC/IEEE 9945:2009" base document, as opposed to being "IEEE Std 1003.1-2008/Cor 1-2013" which would apply to "IEEE Std 1003.1-2008".
00:40:40 <hppavilion[1]> Why is everybody so upset about Wrath of Khan right now?
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00:54:07 <oerjan> <hppavilion[2]> int-e: GG? <-- girl genius hth
00:54:24 <oerjan> a very award-winning webcomic.
00:55:01 <oerjan> no, around here that would be a TG game hth
00:55:43 <pikhq> fizzie: The text of the two documents are identical.
00:56:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: also, Adventure, Romance, MAD SCIENCE! (TM) hth
00:57:25 <oerjan> heh they have their own awards page
00:58:05 <oerjan> at least a couple of those hugos are not for GG but for comics back in the '70s...
00:58:16 <HackEgo> TG is short for Turing-Gödel, the highest possible level of difficulty for a multiplayer game. At this level, it's undecidable whether you can manage to halt before losing or not.
00:59:10 <oerjan> either phil foglio started _really_ young, or he's older than i thought.
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01:00:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It could be both. -e nerd points for use of exclusive disjunction for two non-contradictory possibilities
01:01:23 <oerjan> but kaja is the same age as i. figures.
01:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> Interestingly, Hufflepuff and Horned Serpent are actually rather compatible
01:02:48 <hppavilion[1]> (in fact, I think that they're more compatible than any other Hufflepuff/H or H/Horned Serpent combination)
01:03:33 <oerjan> it wasn't actually both, though. he was at least over 20 when he got those awards.
01:03:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: That doesn't mean he got the awards soon after he started
01:04:54 <hppavilion[1]> But looking into it, I think Hufflepuff is still more compatible- hard work/dedication/honesty is MUCH more scholarly than wit/creativity/wisdom
01:06:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well it cannot be, since he's _also_ got hugos less than a decade ago.
01:07:53 <hppavilion[1]> "When a student starts their education at Ilvermorny, they step onto a Gordian Knot on the floor in the centre of the entrance hall with large wooden statues of the mascots for the four houses facing them. The carved statues react if they want the student in their house."
01:08:06 <hppavilion[1]> "However, sometimes more than one carving will try to select the same student and so the student is then able to choose the house they prefer. This happens very rarely. Sometimes - as rare as once a decade or even a generation as in the case of one student - a student will be selected by every house."
01:09:07 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Why is everybody so upset about Wrath of Khan right now? <-- i dunno but maybe it has something with the new star trek movie(?) i keep seeing ads for?
01:09:40 <oerjan> it would still cause star trek discussion...
01:09:53 <oerjan> perhaps there's a meme. i don't see much of those.
01:10:07 <hppavilion[1]> (I was kidding; people are actually upset about the gold-star Kahn Family- more accurately, they're upset that Trump insulted them)
01:10:14 <oerjan> after i stopped following reddit's default front page
01:10:41 <oerjan> i don't see much of trump either, fortunately :P
01:11:05 <oerjan> i seem to have nearly stopped reading ordinary news.
01:11:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that would be Dune not Star Trek, i think. (unless ST has one too...)
01:14:16 <hppavilion[1]> I've just done some checking, and the universe is still safe
01:14:45 <hppavilion[1]> No company owns the rights to make both Star Wars and Star Trek movies- and, thus, no right to make a crossover
01:16:56 <oerjan> given that Star Wars canonically happens "a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away" that would take some doing to not break all continuity.
01:17:14 <oerjan> what about Babylon 5 hth
01:17:34 <hppavilion[1]> And there's probably a Clone Wars episode with it too
01:18:18 <oerjan> and i think that Q(?) guy can transport people to way off galaxies.
01:18:39 * oerjan hasn't actually watched that much star trek.
01:19:24 <hppavilion[1]> There's also a mention of Time Travel in one of the Star Wars books
01:19:44 <oerjan> i understand the canon in star wars is very brittle.
01:19:45 <hppavilion[1]> Though I can't tell if it's mentioned as something real or just as a hypothetical
01:20:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes, but this book was made specifically to lead up to The Force Awakens, and is officially 100% canon
01:21:53 <oerjan> i guess, when you have a SF franchise written by a lot of authors it's inevitable that someone will introduce time travel (and various other things) unless it's clearly and explicitly forbidden.
01:23:25 <oerjan> (telepathy being another obvious case)
01:23:40 <hppavilion[1]> And even then, Star Wars's canon (until it was formally disbanded) was set up so ANYONE can make it
01:24:00 <oerjan> and ftl travel, of course, if it wasn't there from the start.
01:27:12 <hppavilion[1]> Nowhere in official SW canon has Time Travel ever been explicitly used; it's only ever been non-sarcastically mentioned once
01:27:42 <oerjan> and even if you tried to enforce hard scifi, the problem is that most scifi writers aren't good enough at science to know what is impossible.
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01:28:29 * oerjan realizes he's slipping into very [citation needed] claims there
01:29:18 <oerjan> hm does SW have force precognition?
01:29:48 <oerjan> because backwards causality would be sort of the firsst step to time travel :P
01:30:11 <hppavilion[1]> Once you can send any form of information to the past, you pretty much have proper time travel
01:30:50 <hppavilion[1]> Because you can just route a teleporter through the transmitter (though it'd be difficult, as I don't think machines can access the force- a jedi would have to sit at a keyboard hitting 1 and 0 as he hears it)
01:31:02 <oerjan> for droids, even simpler.
01:31:06 <hppavilion[1]> (So it would take decades to get something to the past, and it probably wouldn't be accurate)
01:31:14 <oerjan> you can just transfer their mind.
01:31:37 <hppavilion[1]> (And if you can time travel but it takes a long time to do it, you risk broken-offset time travel)
01:32:18 <oerjan> maybe you could build a biological computer with force powers.
01:32:51 <oerjan> although by the laws of plot, it'd inevitably turn into a supervillain.
01:33:52 <hppavilion[1]> It'd allow time travel, but it'd give the traveler a goatee
01:34:19 <oerjan> hm and the good version would turn up in an evil past
01:34:46 <oerjan> and then they'd have to work hard to send each back to the right mirror universe.
01:34:56 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, force prophesies aren't absolute and the future is always in motion
01:35:37 <hppavilion[1]> Decision-forking Multiverses do throw a wrench in any time travel plot
01:36:06 <hppavilion[1]> Because you're liable to get literally millions of time travelers from every future that discovers and uses it
01:36:23 <hppavilion[1]> Which is likely a lot because of the decisions that /don't/ affect earth at all
01:36:34 <oerjan> not if the branching goes both forward and backwards.
01:36:42 <oerjan> which reminds me of the Ed stories.
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01:39:09 <oerjan> basically, if the branching is symmetric, then you'll statistically end up with approximately one future matched to your own.
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01:39:47 <oerjan> why would there be one
01:40:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well if it's symmetrical, it has to have a line of symmetry
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01:40:15 <oerjan> no, it's also translation symmetric.
01:40:29 <oerjan> so every point an work as the center.
01:40:31 <hppavilion[1]> (What we're saying here is that, when you travel back in time, you go to a unique only-for-your-future history, correct?)
01:41:09 <oerjan> yes, but only statistically.
01:41:34 <oerjan> there might be a couple futures matching the same past, and vice versa.
01:41:50 <oerjan> hm it'd be a little awkward if there were none...
01:42:11 <HackEgo> blockzombie: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:42:40 <oerjan> although currently we seem to be discussing scifi time travel
01:42:52 <hppavilion[1]> ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo_with_a_Shotgun
01:43:24 <blockzombie> yes I was hoping to catch some context, maybe thought it was like multithreaded intercal where there may not be goto but there can be comefrom - multiple comefroms indicate thread spawn
01:44:28 <oerjan> blockzombie: hey that's a good analogy
01:44:45 <oerjan> except i think we were having multiple comefroms _and_ gotos here
01:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> blockzombie: It started when I checked to make sure no one owns the film rights to both Star Wars and Star Trek, such that no one can cross them over
01:46:16 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: If there is a centerpoint, it has weird philosophical implications
01:46:34 <blockzombie> aren't all time-travel movie plots doomed?
01:46:39 <hppavilion[1]> Because if all histories converge on one point before diverging from there, it means that Free Will is actually
01:46:46 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: RELATIVITY, i said. no wait, i didn't, i just thought it.
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01:47:27 <oerjan> oh right. well no, i wasn't imagine any centerpoint of that kind.
01:47:44 <oerjan> there would be multiple timelines crossing every time period.
01:47:53 <oerjan> (and merging/splitting)
01:48:06 <hppavilion[1]> And if it were discovered by humans, it would have serious justice implications if it happened around today
01:48:44 <blockzombie> our models of causality would be ambiguous
01:51:27 <hppavilion[1]> "Because the defendant's crime was committed 14 minutes before the convergence- thus meaning they didn't have free will at the time- the defendant is found "not guilty" on the grounds of Automatism")
01:51:35 <oerjan> i've seen some discussion about free will and determinism over at scott aaronson's blog. he makes a good case that it really doesn't matter for morals/justice.
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01:52:43 <oerjan> i don't think he's considered such a convergence, though.
01:53:20 <blockzombie> is there a subjective history of the time traveller?
01:53:53 <blockzombie> did they live, then go back in time, then experience stuff, then "travel" back to some later time again?
01:54:06 <oerjan> well there's eir memory. i don't know if there's anything else, in a sufficiently weird universe.
01:54:26 <blockzombie> isn't memory only one example of a time effect on matter?
01:54:40 <blockzombie> and isn't time merely a synthesis of such things?
01:54:49 <oerjan> well ok, there might be other traces in the body.
01:55:12 <blockzombie> memory is not a special case, it's only important to the human whose memory it is
01:55:36 <blockzombie> Presumably the time machine would have scuffs on it
01:55:55 <blockzombie> the yoghurt in the time machine's refrigerator would go off
01:56:44 <oerjan> unless of course we're in one of those universes where time changes affect your subjective past as well.
01:57:07 <oerjan> (the yoghurt changes randomly to being spelled with and without h)
01:58:18 <Zarutian> ya guys or gals have read Anathem by Neal Stephenson? There it is discussed that Narratives thread what you(s) experience.
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02:21:41 <blockzombie> all time is frame-of-reference bound anyway
02:21:56 <blockzombie> so time travel is a discontinuity between one frame and another
02:24:14 <oerjan> so is a black hole btw
02:24:29 <oerjan> general relativity is not nice to global frames :)
02:24:47 <blockzombie> if a person is in one frame and the environment is in another, then the person (and their time machine) joins that other frame, there is a sequence that is coincident in both frames. Then, when the time machine is fired up to return or leave, the frames are detached. The trouble is, frames are append-only so the shared history remains and they can have a shared future also.
02:25:12 <oerjan> (and gödel found a famous solution with time travel in it)
02:25:42 <blockzombie> In the time machine's frame, part of its past is in the frame of the environment it visited. In the frame of its past (say the dinosaurs), the time machine will be joined when it gets invented. So the frames have two contiguous regions.
02:26:00 <blockzombie> I think that's enough to get you into trouble.
02:26:30 <blockzombie> Surely the laws of thermodynamics also go out the window?
02:26:53 <blockzombie> And if they are amended, then they should "black hole" like you say oerjan.
02:27:05 <blockzombie> filling all presents with all possible cases in which time machines exist.
02:27:11 <oerjan> yeah thermodynamics may be tricky.
02:27:25 <blockzombie> so every possible time machine must exist at every possible moment.
02:27:36 <oerjan> although you could just say that it's simply statistics + the fact the big bang point has low entropy.
02:28:04 <oerjan> (i think that's the usual explanation)
02:28:17 <blockzombie> maybe I'm saying that statistically, you can't get away from time machines obviously existing. Either they are unavoidable or impossible.
02:30:40 <oerjan> there's one obvious way to avoid complete fillup: if you need some machinery at the time you're traveling to as well, and it has limited capacity.
02:31:04 <oerjan> (which also explains why we haven't seen any time travelers yet)
02:31:46 <oerjan> like if it needs to use energy to actually rebuild whoever is travelling?
02:31:49 <blockzombie> but any material required in target time must be synthesisable in its past
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02:32:08 <blockzombie> since the material emerged from a past that must include now
02:32:34 <blockzombie> hmmmm does this hold if target time material is different to source time material?
02:33:02 <oerjan> with this scheme you are not increasing the amount of material, just transforming it.
02:33:42 <oerjan> of course it all depends on having technology that can transform well enough.
02:37:01 <oerjan> if too many time travelers arrive, you end up with no material left to accomodate them (without taking some of them apart again...)
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02:37:30 <oerjan> of course this could still use a lot of resources.
02:37:43 <oerjan> (sounds like an obvious invasion plot)
02:43:56 <Zarutian> oerjan: you are basically talking about something that is often called time gates, no?
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03:08:04 <hppavilion[1]> It says that if, in the process of committing a felony, you wind up killing someone (even with no intention of doing so), you can be convicted of murder
03:13:13 <oerjan> we already know the american "justice" system is crazy tyvm
03:13:56 <oerjan> i suppose the rule would be ok if you only had _actual_ serious crimes as felonies.
03:16:20 <oerjan> (gah, why am i joining this discussion)
03:25:35 <Zarutian> USA "justice" system seems to be more about revenge than dealing with crime or servere disagreement
03:26:19 <oerjan> over at "the whiteboard": aww, and the date was going so well.
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03:43:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, Tax Evasion, Copyright Infringement, and Cheque Fraud don't seem like they should carry the weight of a murder sentence
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03:44:25 <hppavilion[1]> ("You have been found guilty of attempted conspiracy to solicit the incitement of cheque fraud. The penalty is death.")
03:44:26 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: isnt it just usual that in the case of Tax Evasion that people are fined the amount of taxes owed plus some usury interest?
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03:46:02 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: It might be able to carry perjury as well, I think, depending on whether your tax returns are considered "under oath"
03:46:07 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: in the case of Copyright Infringement I thought it was usually enough for people to advertise that they are not the author. (Copyright Infringement -> Misattributation of authorship)
03:47:24 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: That's plagiarism, and isn't so much a crime (usually) as a violation of school rules
03:47:42 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: tax returns arent "under oath" if you include "This information might contain inadvertant errors, the recipiant should verify"
03:47:46 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: For example, if you published the entirety of the Harry Potter books, even saying "By J. K. Rowling", it would be copyright infringement
03:49:00 <Zarutian> oh, right it is the Publishment-Exclusive right, sorry my mistake
03:49:07 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Plagiarism *can* be a crime, insofar as it is fraud.
03:49:18 <zzo38> Also some stuff is public domain and is not copyright.
03:49:27 <pikhq> That said, it's more complex than just plagiarism is itself a crime.
03:49:51 <pikhq> ... Also, apparently fraud isn't a crime, it's a tort.
03:49:56 <zzo38> I think even in such case it would still be plagiarism to claim that it is not public domain, but I do not really understand it
03:49:57 <Zarutian> zzo38: yet often you are not allowed to declare that public domain stuff is by you unless it literally is
03:50:03 <pikhq> (i.e. something you can sue someone for, not something you can be arrested for)
03:50:09 <quintopia> for instance, every word on the esolang wiki (i hope--would be a jerk move if people are copypasting copyright shit onto it)
03:50:30 <pikhq> Zarutian: Depends on the jurisdiction.
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03:50:43 <hppavilion[1]> Advertising something as public domain when it isn't would probably constitute a license violation (so lawsuit-worthy, but not criminal)
03:51:03 <hppavilion[1]> Because, AFAICT, Public Domain is basically the same as a null license
03:51:09 <Zarutian> pikhq: most sane jurisdiction has it in their laws about Authorship to prevent someone taking something out of the public domain
03:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> It would be lawsuit-worthy, but there isn't anyone who could act as a plaintiff xD
03:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It would be plagiarism to a school... but whether it could be punished by any non-employer authority is probably complicated
03:53:48 <Zarutian> now, Cheque Fraud is interesting because an Cheque is a promisary note and also an instruction to your bank to pay someone. If you are forging an Cheque you are basically makeing an false instruction to the backing bank.
03:53:53 <hppavilion[1]> The only real downside to claiming something isn't public domain is that someone might notice someday and call your bullshit on it, and people would stop pretending it is
03:55:08 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'm really pretty conflicted on regulation
03:55:39 <hppavilion[1]> As a liberal (~-0.2 on the horseshoe), I feel like they should be
03:55:48 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: now, here is a thing, if you forge an Cheque but stamp it with "INVALID" across it. Is it theft?
03:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> But as a programmer, I feel like that's a stupid idea
03:55:54 <zzo38> I had the different idea that you should be allowed to add a public and/or private key on your bank account; these can be used to digitally sign a cheque, as well as to access your account over the internet by SSH. But it is optional thing to do
03:56:35 <Zarutian> zzo38: and perhaps get OpenPGP encrypted statements in email and such
03:56:41 <hppavilion[1]> (but seriously, a bank that lets you computer it is brilliant)
03:56:53 <zzo38> So one field on the cheque you can write the digitally signed numbers.
03:57:38 <hppavilion[1]> (ooh! And perhaps you could run scripts on it that will automatically turn you a profit (for free or a small fee), but the bank gets to take a percentage of any profits you make (but, naturally, they don't have to pay if you lose money :P))
03:58:09 <hppavilion[1]> The bank software is entirely written in funge, of course
03:58:43 <zzo38> Also include the QR code on the bank statement that encodes the compressed contents of the bank statement, so that you can scan it into the computer.
03:59:00 <hppavilion[1]> But the programmer side of me feels like regulating banks is stupid because, if you bind it to the word "bank", you have the issue of people not calling themselves a "bank" but performing all of the services (with no regulation)
03:59:37 <Zarutian> I asked my local bank, they werent willing to run anything turing complete nor with any more access than read access to transactionslog.
03:59:52 <zzo38> Digitally sign and QR code feature both require a computer but would not require internet connection, and also would not require you to use a specific computer or their specific software. To access your account over the internet by SSH of course does require internet connection.
04:00:19 <Zarutian> zzo38: congrats you just reinvented b-cash iirc
04:00:23 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: My local bank only lets me run programs that halt :/
04:00:48 <shachaf> I can't tell whether someone olisted already.
04:01:00 <HackEgo> olist: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
04:01:07 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: so something that is basically on the level of primitive recursive functions?
04:01:26 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: No, it can be TC, it just can't run forever
04:01:28 <Sgeo_> I knew about the olist for hours but didn't think to olist this place
04:01:47 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: so, timeout limit then?
04:02:16 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Because my bank solved the halting problem
04:02:20 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: so bullshit in the same category as kyc/aml
04:02:33 <hppavilion[1]> (they paid off the Turing Estate to lift the restriction, just for them)
04:02:49 <hppavilion[1]> And if you bind it to the stuff done by a bank, it feels stupid because that prevents some probably-legitimate companies from existing because they might have an incompatible set of services (do enough to qualify as a bank, but also do stuff that someone might want but banks aren't allowed to do)
04:04:03 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: what would you consider sane regulation for banks (of the cheque-ing and savings account kind)?
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04:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Basically, banks should have to follow the laws everyone else does
04:04:54 <hppavilion[1]> They can't tell you they'll hold your money then refuse to give it back, because that would be theft
04:05:46 <Zarutian> they cant refuse to give it back precisely because it would be theft
04:06:18 <zzo38> The SSH access will have two main commands "inquiry" to tell you how much money you have and "split" to split some of your money into a new account; you can then send the key of the new account to whoever you want to pay (the send can be by internet or using other communications channels; it does not matter).
04:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> They can't violate a contract because that'd be violating a contract
04:06:30 <Zarutian> or that is at least in sane juristictions.
04:06:40 <zzo38> Depending on the account and on the bank and so on, there may also be additional commands such as "statement" and "convert" and so on.
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04:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> They can't break into your house at night, beat the shit out of you, insert a large object into an orifice, then snap your neck, because that would be burglary/assault/battery/rape/murder
04:07:24 <Zarutian> zzo38: ya read what nick szabo has written? And btw that sounds little bit like the functionality of paymer|webmoney notes
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04:08:14 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: That's the stuff that I'm not conflicted at all about
04:09:00 <hppavilion[1]> Any form of regulation that can be easily evaded with wording or that could prevent a legit company from doing legit things sets of my programmer to varying degrees
04:09:33 <hppavilion[1]> ...Wikipedia lists statutory rape under "Victimless Crimes"
04:09:35 <Zarutian> what kind of regulation would that be?
04:09:54 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: re wikipedia because both parties are consenting
04:11:10 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, in theory, someone could want you to perform any service
04:11:14 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: what would you think that a company cant do but is legit in your view.
04:12:30 <Zarutian> I do not know enaugh latin but I suspect it would be something to informed cavet emptor, no?
04:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> So preventing any service which is classified as a bank (by features) from performing a service that someone could want (and isn't going to victimize someone else) seems stupid
04:14:13 <Zarutian> the "AS IS" clause of many software licenses, so to speak. (Also "WARNING THIS SOFTWARE HAS NOT BE CERTIFIED FOR AVIONICS, <etc>"
04:14:50 <Zarutian> well, you are basically entering the area of regulatory capture here.
04:15:15 <zzo38> But there is also credit union, and that is also a kind of bank. You need shares in the credit union to have the account, but then you can access it from any credit union ATM (even if it is a different company) and not have to pay the service charge.
04:16:44 <Zarutian> you pay service charge for using an ATM? where I am from the banks just bill each other and settle in eather direction.
04:17:29 <zzo38> You don't have to pay service charge if the ATM and the account are both credit unions (they can be different credit unions though)
04:17:41 <Zarutian> but yes, I have heard numerous times (even from my local bank) to use credit unions in USA and not the banks there
04:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I suppose we can just make a law say that the regulations can be waived by someone signing a contract
04:18:59 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: you sure you havent followed or played any nomics?
04:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: I'm trying to get into Agora or start my own Nomic
04:19:34 <hppavilion[1]> (I am, personally, of the opinion that contracts should pretty much be above US law when applied to the group of people signing them, if they're able to reasonably consent to the contract
04:20:38 <Zarutian> you used that word "reasonably" which to me is a weasle word. (A kind of bullshytte as Erameas in Anathem would say)
04:21:20 <hppavilion[1]> Well, "reasonably consent" would be defined somewhere
04:22:01 <hppavilion[1]> Like, "not mentally ill (insofar as [...]), over 18, not intoxicated..."
04:22:09 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: hmm.. are you familiar with the mouse trap from Agora nomic? it resvolvs around this very issue iirc
04:22:33 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: how about "is the only company providing this service for residents at place X"?
04:23:26 <nortti> say, you can either sign a contract that waiwes some of your rights, or you don't get, say, internet connection
04:23:39 <Zarutian> but I am nonplussed about the ISPs (usually cable) in USA. You mean there are exclusive franchises?
04:23:47 <hppavilion[1]> Do you mean, as in, if ONLY this company gives electricity in your city, they can't mix in "you sign this contract and we give you power, BUT we can kill you if we feel like it"
04:24:20 <pikhq> Yes, in the US there are often exclusive franchises.
04:24:35 <nortti> or, several companies provide such service, but all require such a contract
04:25:11 <nortti> and what about if you can get service without signing such a contract, but it will be much shittier than if you do
04:25:29 <Zarutian> pikhq: never understood why that is allowed at all.
04:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: I don't know, probably that you can't force a company to provide internet to an area
04:26:30 <Zarutian> pikhq: then again USA real estates/properties have 'easement' which is bizzare to me
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04:27:09 <hppavilion[1]> So if only one company is willing to provide wifi to a region, then nobody could get wifi at all there because you can't just have one company
04:27:12 <pikhq> Easements, though common in the US, are *very* much a common law concept.
04:27:18 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: sure, but the converse should also be true: you can not force a company not to provide internet to an area
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04:27:40 <Zarutian> pikhq: only USA and UK has it iirc
04:27:53 <pikhq> No, other common law jurisdictions should have it.
04:27:56 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: But if exclusive franchises are banned, then those are incompatible
04:28:10 <pikhq> Essentially, easements are non-possessive, non-exclusive rights to property.
04:28:30 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: exclusive franchises are often made and forced upon people without their explict consent
04:29:17 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: also you have situations where companies agree to not "tresspass on each other's territory"
04:29:18 <hppavilion[1]> Because if you can't force someone to, but you can't force them not to, then if only one person wants to set up shop in a region, you can't make another person do it too to prevent an exclusive franchise, but you can't force the first person not to to prevent an exclusive franchise
04:29:28 <pikhq> Most notable in things like roads and their associated right-of-way: in common law, you can't purchase a road and bar someone access to their property via it, as they possess an easement on that road.
04:29:53 <Zarutian> pikhq: well, there are sometimes 'limits' on properties but they are always listed in the deed of it.
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04:30:45 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Maybe a different kind of contract would be necessary to waive rights; like, special, separate ones that are ONLY allowed to do one thing
04:31:09 <hppavilion[1]> So you can't roll "I can murder you if I feel like it" in with "you get wifi"
04:31:39 <nortti> what defines what can and cannot be combined?
04:31:52 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: exclusive franchise is enforced by law. I am against that. I want the possibility that a competitor can come around if the encumebenant is being nasty with their terms of service
04:32:11 <nortti> if it's a general rule, how do you prevent loopholing, and if it's per-case, haven't we reinvented regulations
04:32:29 <pikhq> Zarutian: It's worth remembering the history of common law as an outgrowth of the English feudal system, to try and make sense of WTF it does and how it works.
04:32:46 <hppavilion[1]> There's nowhere in the US where only one company is /allowed/ to provide wifi (I think); its' just that there are some places where only one company has /decided/ to do so
04:32:55 <pikhq> Especially as relates to property law.
04:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: Probably you can only put rightwaiving in one kind of contract and normal stuff in another
04:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: So the mousetrap is basically saying "if I say something, you all have to agree with me"?
04:33:51 <pikhq> It's fairly distinct from how it tends to work in civil law.
04:34:46 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: a mouse trap would be kind of "if you perform this action (or fail to perform it) then you hereby consent to be bound by this contract|contest-rules"
04:36:17 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: if it were allowed you could make an contract that bites an judge in his|her arse if they conclude an spefic trial in certain direction
04:38:09 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: But what we mean is that it's a contract that you enter without explicitly saying you want to agree to?
04:38:22 <Zarutian> pikhq: one consequence of civil law regarding property is that service lines such as sewage, power and such do not have right of way through my property. (Though there is usually agreement for the service lines you request to have on your property to get those services)
04:39:06 <Zarutian> pikhq: hence there are branches from the mainlines under the roads (which is on land owned by the government) to each house
04:40:11 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Someone did <-- you probably did just as clog was down.
04:41:36 * oerjan realizes the obvious, but is too far up in the scrollback.
04:42:59 <Zarutian> pikhq: and the title and deed registry is extremely precise regarding where property lines lie. Sometimes resulting in stuff like where an corner of you lot (if it is on the corner of two roads) is owned by the goverment because they though that the corner of the roads would be more curved
04:43:46 <Zarutian> pikhq: in one case the goverment sold such a corner to the lot owner for token price
04:43:49 <pikhq> Alas, in common law, while the deed registry is similarly precise, the actual use of the land can override the deed.
04:44:26 <alercah> Zarutian: that's true in common law too
04:44:33 <alercah> (the bit about underground, I mean)
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04:44:45 <alercah> in common law, property rights extend indefinitely downwards and upwards
04:45:18 <pikhq> Except insofar as easements go. It's possible for there to be an easement on the property where the service lines go through.
04:45:20 <Zarutian> pikhq: not so in civil law. Though there are restrictions on huge properties such as agriculture lands and such
04:46:01 <pikhq> Buuut it gets complicated there.
04:46:04 <Zarutian> (responding to the comment on the actual use of the land overriding the deed)
04:48:18 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: If you're referring to a specific real-world thing
04:49:06 <hppavilion[1]> The government used eminent domain to take Hess's land, but they missed that triangle, so Hess's heirs still owned that little spot
04:49:15 <Zarutian> alercah: not so where I live. The property right extends upward to the defined aerospace floor (lowest that airplanes are allowed to fly) and down to the structural bedrock. So if someone digs a tunnel so far underneeth your house that the tunel might as well not be there structurally wise then you have no property right to it.
04:49:52 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: I am refering to a spefic real-world thing and no it was not backwards.
04:50:20 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: the road was planned well before any house was to be built
04:50:36 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hess_triangle
04:51:32 <Zarutian> (the land was bought from a farmer adjenct to the city, roads and property lines decided and then sold in those pieces)
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04:52:28 <hppavilion[1]> The city took his land to widen a street, but they missed the triangle
04:52:29 <Zarutian> I am not talking about the Hess triangle
04:53:16 <Zarutian> why did the city take his land to widen a street? poor planning when that street was laid down?
04:53:37 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: When the street was laid, we didn't have cars
04:55:19 <Zarutian> well, the usual rules (where I live) regarding property is that you cannot buy a piece of it unless the property has been split up explictly beforehand
04:55:38 <hppavilion[1]> Under civil law, land is owned from bedrock to the aerospace floor by default
04:55:41 <Zarutian> (same applies to the eminent domain)
04:56:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Oh god, and with lax enough timesharing rules, someone can own a 4D plot
04:56:25 <Zarutian> not land but property, but only if the properties below have restrictions to literally suport the ones above
04:57:20 <pikhq> I think you can arbitrarily subdivide property here.
04:57:44 <Zarutian> pikhq: same where but you have to declare it to the property registry
04:58:05 <Zarutian> pikhq: same if you are combining two adjenct ones into one
04:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: CERN should allocate a 1-square-centimetre space and sell it to people in planck-area plots
04:59:25 <pikhq> Zarutian: I think here you don't *have* to, but if you don't you are going to have a much harder time defending property rights.
04:59:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: clog is the logging bot hth
04:59:57 <Zarutian> pikhq: precisely why you have to here
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05:06:04 <Zarutian> pikhq: the declaration only needs to be public in a way so the landregistry will be informed of it
05:06:54 <Zarutian> lovely, I think a link somewhere in USA went on the fritz as both freenode and efnet disconnected on me
05:08:55 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to introduce "The Pinocchio Bill" to congress: the text is simply "Congress shall not pass the Pinocchio bill"
05:09:18 <hppavilion[1]> Any congressman who comments that it creates a paradox they cannot escape from will be immediately removed from office
05:11:47 <oerjan> there is no paradox if they don't pass it hth
05:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: So if they are too hasty and think that there is a paradox, then they should be removed from office because they don't understand even basic logic
05:13:18 <hppavilion[1]> There's no rule against Pinocchio's nose growing when he tells the truth
05:15:38 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: you are saying that the growth of his nose is the consequent of an implies condition which is "pinocchio is lieing", yes?
05:16:15 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: But nose growth is possible when pinocchio is /not/ lying
05:16:46 <hppavilion[1]> Does pinocchio's nose grow only when he lies, or does it grow any time he makes a false statement?
05:16:49 * oerjan recalls that in the original book, there are two kinds of lies, the other gives short legs instead.
05:17:53 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: if the latter is true then he can get a job as an science instrument though it would require a saw
05:18:18 <oerjan> i'm not sure the fairy elaborated on that.
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05:20:11 <oerjan> as the original was, afaik, a christian (catholic) moral fable, don't expect it to follow programmer logic.
05:20:29 * oerjan has forgotten most of it, anyway.
05:20:52 <oerjan> if i ever _did_ read it through.
05:21:20 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Short leg lies are ones that people believe for a little while, but that will eventually be shown false
05:21:36 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Long nose lies are obviously false to everyone EXCEPT the liar
05:21:36 <Zarutian> hmm.. I think there was some wizard fantasy where even an journey man could make an stone that gave the holder a burning sensation if he uttured a false statement. Most of the wizards thought it useless until someone started to keep a list of statements that he or she had tried and the outcome
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05:25:01 <Zarutian> one story was about a theif had acquired such a stone and used it to map out the premises of a place he wanted to bulgarize
05:26:39 <hppavilion[1]> But if pinnocchio's nose was just true/false, then it would have serious military applications: "Iran has a nuke", "Russia plans to start a war with the USA", "There is an active, serious attack being planned on American soil"
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05:27:46 <Zarutian> the theif could only do it a few times before anyone with any wealth worth the risk cought on.
05:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> Even more terrifying is if it's the other way around- if Pinocchio says something will happen, the growth of his nose doesn't indicate the future; if he says something about the future is true and his nose doesn't grow (perhaps because it wasn't strictly a lie or because it has been prevented using LAZERS), then he has now set a mandatory future event that cannot be averted
05:29:25 <Zarutian> those people just hired security that had the job to regularly use such a stone to ask if anyone was or had recently used such a stone to enquire about the contents of a specified residence or building. If so then valueable stuff was moved around.
05:30:27 <hppavilion[1]> God, once all knowledge is accessible upon specific true/false query, the world gets complicated
05:30:30 <Zarutian> btw those stones were unable to say anything about the future
05:31:12 <Zarutian> as you got the zen feeling of both the sensation of burning and not burning
05:32:36 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: that was the entire point of the story
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05:33:48 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: Was the zen feeling weighted? For example, if you say something that is true in 1 in 4 potential futures, do you feel 1 part burning, 3 parts non-burning?
05:34:08 <Zarutian> there was also the restriction that the enquries must be stated about objective and not subjective
05:34:25 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: nope, just always equal
05:34:56 <hppavilion[1]> Zarutian: How would it respond to "The Prequels were decent movies"?
05:35:21 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, what if you make a collective statement without a qualifier?
05:35:54 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: by not doing anything as such is an subject enquiry
05:38:41 <Zarutian> hppavilion[1]: "The <spefic> blue stone was at time <timestamp, shortly ago> inside the second ring on the <spefic> board", kind of questions?
05:39:27 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, like, if you say something like "Cretians are liars"
05:40:29 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically "Rule of Thumb: Cretians are Liars"
05:40:44 <Zarutian> you forgot that the stones only gave the burning sensation for false statements
05:42:06 <Zarutian> and the statement must be completely understandable by the asker to be as spefic as possible or nothing would happen
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05:50:31 <hppavilion[1]> Somebody MMWed that an Olympian will learn Spanish to prepare for the Rio Olympics
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05:51:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://xkcd.com/246/
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06:08:46 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.reddit.com/r/MarkMyWords/comments/4vcce3/mmw_on_obamas_last_day_in_office_he_and_his/d5xq10x
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06:13:46 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: the_donald is its own parody
06:14:01 <alercah> I think most people there are honest though
06:14:07 <alercah> I don't think it's quite conservapedia
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06:15:47 <hppavilion[1]> LBJ was sworn in using Kennedy's instructions for how to do mass, as no Bible was on hand
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07:08:18 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_poetry
07:08:27 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Perl
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07:39:50 <izabera> what's a regex to match lines that contain at least 3 different characters?
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07:44:27 <alercah> izabera: I'm not sure there's a succinct one
07:44:59 <alercah> the minimal DFA requires |\Sigma|^2+2 states, pretty trivially
07:45:31 <oerjan> can you put \n in a negative lookahead?
07:46:20 <alercah> backreferences and lookaheads are not features of regular expressions hth
07:46:26 <izabera> someone in #regex gave me this https://regex101.com/r/xW5iA0/1
07:49:11 * oerjan swats alercah -----###
07:49:56 <oerjan> izabera: oh right clever
07:51:36 <izabera> i don't know the right term for that
07:52:01 <oerjan> oh right, no backtracking?
07:58:38 <izabera> it's called possessive quantifier btw
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08:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> When a game is updated, does the ESRB have to re-rate it?
08:54:12 <izabera> eric steven raymond's beard
08:56:23 <izabera> no it's decided, it's esr's beard
08:58:11 <myname> electronic steven rating beard
08:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: But IRL, it's the organization that says what games have too much blood or how bad it is that two people kissed
08:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> (and, let's be honest, gay men kissing is MUCH more likely to be bumped up than straight men kissing)
08:59:17 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i'd guess how bad a kiss is heavily depends on the genders of the participants?
08:59:55 <myname> i didn't read it while typing
08:59:57 <izabera> straigt couples only have great kisses?
09:00:30 <izabera> what about 3 men + 2 women
09:00:42 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: No, but straight couples are the least likely to offend Curmudgeons on the ESRB
09:00:55 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Please give me the proper digraph of kissing and I can clarify
09:01:12 <izabera> they're all sort of sticking their tongues out to touch the other five's
09:01:29 <hppavilion[1]> (Weirdly, the kissing digraph allows both loops AND duplicated edges)
09:01:42 <myname> that'll get nuked from orbit
09:01:50 <izabera> https://plus.google.com/u/0/+LinusTorvalds/posts?pid=6173274135056727234&oid=102150693225130002912 can we talk about this?
09:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That is, they'll allow you to release it, but only as DLC on an Alien game
09:02:38 <izabera> then it's very good 3d graphics
09:03:48 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: No, my problem is with Linus Torvalds using Google+
09:04:00 <izabera> he's been using it for years
09:04:33 <hppavilion[1]> rms is the one who has someone email him the HTML and prints it out, right?
09:04:46 <izabera> linux 4.0 got nicknamed "hurr durr ima sheep" because of a google+ poll
09:05:20 <myname> at least he doesn't back up like boaty mcboatface
09:05:42 <izabera> it's arguably not even the worst name so far
09:05:53 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_kernel_names
09:06:08 <myname> linux for workgroups is by far the best one
09:06:10 <FireFly> izabera: heh, maybe a cockpit in some museum rather than an actual in-use plane
09:06:21 <izabera> but there's his name on it
09:09:44 <HackEgo> /ESRB = Eric Steven Raymond's beard
09:10:01 <HackEgo> wisdom/esrb//ESRB = Eric Steven Raymond's beard
09:10:25 <izabera> linux 2.6.15 sliting snow leopard is older than mac os x snow leopard
09:15:05 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I really think they should've named it boaty mcboatface
09:16:06 <myname> there was also a voting for a design for a pril bottle (don't know if that's a thing elsewhere)
09:16:36 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Got_Back#Synopsis
09:17:53 <myname> http://net-netz-blog.de/index.php/wie-marketingaktionen-im-internet-nach-hinten-gehen-konnen/ (german)
09:18:43 <myname> they voted on a sticker for a bottle of washing stuff and a meme would've won by a landslide
09:20:26 <hppavilion[1]> I feel it's time for me to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_prefix
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09:42:26 <fizzie> A ship prefix sounds like something you put in front of your forum nickname to indicate your shipping preferences.
10:00:30 <hppavilion[1]> As Theseus once said, "I like big boats and I always lie"
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11:45:13 <HackEgo> minsky//to Minsky on : /mɪnskiː/ To act as a Minsky machine on; of a program or programming language, to encode its entire state into the object as a single integer.
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13:59:00 <Jafet> is that an object-oriented minsky machine
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14:00:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Floater]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49102&oldid=42435 * Zom-B * (-152) Source and binaries
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18:00:23 <izabera> https://i.imgur.com/kzzCkXd.jpg birth of openbsd
18:34:19 <Jafet> we need to stop accepting patches from, well, from developers with a proven history of causing critical security vulnerabilities until our code reviewers can figure out what's going on.
18:35:43 <orin> Let's start a new sound merger in English! The Darn-Damn merger!
18:36:56 <orin> that way rn won't just look like an m it will sound like one too!
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18:40:21 <orin> I wonder if anyone has a .corn domain?
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18:52:16 <Jafet> presumably the startup for marketing the .corn domain would be uni.corn. a.corn would house the root servers.
18:55:15 <orin> Hmm, another fun one would be .www domains
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20:40:50 <orin> man people swear at cell phones a lot
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20:47:21 <hppavilion[1]> "We have to bring balance between the light and dark sides of the Force" "OK, let's make sure there are a shitton of light side users and absolutely no Dark Side users whatsoever, that sounds pretty balanced" "Yeah, sounds go- wait, what?"
20:51:10 <izabera> bring peace by conquering everything
20:52:37 <orin> /r/empiredidnothingwrong
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23:11:03 <zemhill__> Slereah: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
23:11:44 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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23:19:37 <izabera> `` hashfunc () { local LC_ALL=C; printf %u\\n "$(( 64#9876543210${1//[!0-9a-zA-Z_@]/_} ** 2 ))"; }; hashfunc "hello world!"
23:22:43 <izabera> it's the fastest string hash i could come up with in bash
23:23:13 <izabera> i mean fastest decent string hash
23:23:30 <Sgeo_> qhttp://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-pictures/how-to-reset-volume-mixer-levels/39b6e5f2-0ee9-463c-89c9-8257264294cf?auth=1
23:23:32 <izabera> it even does avalanche nicely
23:23:33 <Sgeo_> http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-pictures/how-to-reset-volume-mixer-levels/39b6e5f2-0ee9-463c-89c9-8257264294cf?auth=1
23:30:34 <izabera> how bad is it for a hash function if hash(i) + hash(i+1) is always an odd number?
23:32:33 <int-e> maybe okay for hashtables, unacceptable for cryptography.
23:33:07 <izabera> it's to color the hostname in my shell prompt
23:33:52 <int-e> you're probably okay then
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23:38:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'm waiting for the glorious future when we can say "Greedo shot first, but due to the speed-of-light delay, there is no way Han's shot could have been specifically in reaction to Greedo rather than coincidentally placed"
23:39:17 <izabera> nobody would ever say that
23:39:43 <izabera> han shot first case closed
23:40:25 <hppavilion[1]> "Han shot first, but when the timestream was rewritten by the great Sacul, things changed"
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