00:07:33 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
00:11:44 <myname> notice how all your vowels are diphtongues
00:12:25 <hppavilion[1]> But a dipthong could be allowed in a Syllabary; no reason it couldn't be
00:13:08 <hppavilion[1]> The IPA can spell "hay" in 2 symbols, even though it's h+(eh+ee)
00:13:41 <myname> in german, a, e, i, o and u are single sounds
00:14:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I want a Syllabary or Logogrammery or Abugida for English.
00:14:49 <hppavilion[1]> But they're said in such a smoothly-chained way that, until I first read about "dipthongs", I didn't realize they were 2 sounds
00:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> OTOH, a, e, i, o, and u all make several different noises, and some of them are dipthongs
00:15:55 <hppavilion[1]> (I think the best way to explain writing systems is through Batman, assuming the language is always English)
00:16:40 <myname> we should add unvoiced vowels to wnglish, just because fuck you everybody
00:17:01 <hppavilion[1]> But I've yet to find such thing as an unvoiced vowel
00:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> abugida: b,tm,n (or something, probably move the ,s to be more diacritical)
00:17:34 <myname> i can exactly pronounce one word with such thing
00:17:46 <myname> from the trailer for dead sushi
00:18:54 <hppavilion[1]> Syllabary: Something like (with symbols in [brackets] being stacked vertically) [_o/][~o^]
00:21:58 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, syllabary (the new one, not the old one) is more of an impure abjad
00:23:26 -!- adu has joined.
00:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> adu: If we were using a the Latin Abjad, your name would just be 'd'
00:26:13 <myname> https://youtu.be/zmwgmt7wcv8 chom choms :D
00:26:18 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
00:26:53 <adu> This is what I see: ¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯
00:27:56 <adu> ¯\([ZERO WIDTH SPACE])/¯
00:28:29 <adu> o/^ ([ZERO WIDTH SPACE]) o/^
00:28:38 <quintopia> kaoD: do you realize that your program is equivalent to ....(+)*-1 ?
00:28:45 <myname> i am tempted to actually use that word
00:30:25 <hppavilion[1]> `learn The IPA (short for International Phonetic Abjad) is an international standard encoding all non-vowel sounds in all spoken languages, and is used to indicate the pronunciation of words. It is incredibly useful, unless you need to pronounce a word.
00:30:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'ipa': The IPA (short for International Phonetic Abjad) is an international standard encoding all non-vowel sounds in all spoken languages, and is used to indicate the pronunciation of words. It is incredibly useful, unless you need to pronounce a word.
00:32:09 <hppavilion[1]> [note 1] on the wikipedia page for the IPA is "The acronym 'IPA' strictly refers [...] to the 'International Phonetic Association'. But it is now such a common practice to use the acronym also to refer to the alphabet itself (from the phrase 'International Phonetic Alphabet') that resistance seems pedantic. Context usually serves to disambiguate the two usages."
00:32:25 <hppavilion[1]> Whoever wrote that clearly doesn't really get the IPA
00:33:04 <adu> hppavilion[1]: why did you put a ZWSP in it again?
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00:33:46 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I didn't, HackEgo does it automatically so that it doesn't alert people who are idling
00:34:02 <adu> alert people...
00:34:08 <adu> I'm confused
00:34:15 -!- augur has joined.
00:35:34 <adu> is there something special about ZWSP that bypasses the rules of search?
00:37:21 <adu> or are you saying there is a user named °_o and if you were to use that, then you would notify them, and so you use °[ZWSP]_o so that you don't wake them up?
00:37:26 <HackEgo> Do you know adu? Adu adu adu adu adu!
00:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Most peoples' clients beep when someone says their name
00:38:10 <hppavilion[1]> That's why I keep prefacing my messages with 'adu: ', so you know that I just replied to you]
00:38:12 <\oren\> Mine flashes the screen, but it's the same principle
00:38:18 <adu> hppavilion[1]: but I'm still confused about the ZWSP
00:38:50 <hppavilion[1]> adu: The ZWSP prevents most clients from alerting the user
00:38:52 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:39:03 <hppavilion[1]> Because usually when HackEgo says someone's name, it isn't actually talking to them
00:39:07 <adu> hppavilion[1]: is there a user named "°_o"?
00:39:43 <hppavilion[1]> adu: No, but HackEgo can't really tell who is and isn't a user, so it ZWSPs... everything, I guess
00:39:55 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Does ZWSP prevent most clients from looking later in the message?
00:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> My client beeps, the tray icon flashes until I open it, and the message is highlighted in green
00:40:29 <hppavilion[1]> adu: But the [ZWSP] only appears one time per message?
00:40:40 <adu> hppavilion[1]: no, every time you do the crazy eyes
00:40:50 <\oren\> `` echo "hppavilion[1]"
00:40:59 <adu> I don't see the crazy eyes, I only see "¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯"
00:41:20 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "hppavilion[1] "x2;'
00:41:20 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1]
00:41:52 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print ("hppav"."ilion[1] ")x2;'
00:42:12 <adu> my question has absolutely nothing to do with alerts, or username, my question is why is there a ZWSP in "¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯"?
00:42:20 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print (("hppav"."ilion[1] ")x2);'
00:42:20 <hppavilion[1]> OTOH, the thing meant to prevent me from being alerted doesn't work quite right on my client
00:42:22 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1]
00:42:42 <kaoD> quintopia: oh, didn't know -1 is infinite expansion
00:42:51 <HackEgo> Is there a ZWSP here, adu?
00:42:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: only the crazy eyes
00:43:18 <adu> I think it's a typo (mistake) that everyone has been copy-pasting until the end of time
00:43:28 <hppavilion[1]> If I had to guess who knew, it'd be oerjan, Taneb, or ais523
00:43:57 <\oren\> does mine have a zwsp?
00:44:12 <adu> to me, that line looks like: <HackEgo> sdfghj? "¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯"
00:44:24 <adu> \oren\: yes
00:44:40 <adu> Your line looks like <\oren\> ¯\(°[ZWSP]_o)/¯
00:44:48 <\oren\> ok, let me try to enter it manually
00:45:03 <myname> maybe it is necessary to not compose stuff
00:45:36 <\oren\> `` echo '¯\(°_o)/¯' | od -c
00:45:37 <HackEgo> 0000000 302 257 \ ( 302 260 342 200 213 _ o ) / 302 257 \n \ 0000020
00:45:51 <adu> `` echo '¯\(°_o)/¯' | xxd
00:45:52 <HackEgo> 0000000: c2af 5c28 c2b0 e280 8b5f 6f29 2fc2 af0a ..\(....._o)/...
00:46:00 <hppavilion[1]> adu: In that case, it's either added by the server or by your client
00:46:09 <kaoD> !zjoust sorry ->[]<(+)*-1
00:46:11 <zemhill__> kaoD.sorry: points -11.86, score 16.31, rank 16/47 (--)
00:46:22 <HackEgo> [U+0049 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0027 APOSTROPHE] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I] [U+0074 LA
00:46:35 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\342"'
00:47:00 <HackEgo> [U+00AF MACRON] [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON]
00:47:02 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\342\200\213_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:47:27 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, so the ZWSP is built into the ¯\(°_o)/¯- at least as copied from \oren\
00:47:54 <\oren\> yes, and without it the degree sign doesn't show up
00:48:02 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Probably so the degree sign doesn't merge with the _ or something?
00:48:26 <hppavilion[1]> So I guess it's added by either the outgoing client or by the server (probably the former)
00:48:58 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: The zero-width space is added to any HackEgo output that doesn't start with letters (for some definition of letter).
00:49:35 <myname> and it wasn't at the start
00:49:40 <hppavilion[1]> I assume e copied it symbol-by-symbol from a unicode page
00:49:45 <fizzie> I wouldn't know about that. But when HackEgo does it, it's a botloop prevention thing -- bot trigger characters tend to be [^A-Za-z0-9].
00:49:46 <myname> besodes noodling, hackego does not change output
00:50:13 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\343\202\234_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:50:22 <adu> now lets see without the ZWSP, what do YOU SEE? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:50:43 <HackEgo> [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+0069 LATIN SMALL LETTER I]
00:50:49 <adu> hppavilion[1]: The degree symbol is not a combiner
00:50:50 <fizzie> (Copy-pasted from the *i output.)
00:50:59 <adu> hppavilion[1]: you shouldn't have to combine it with anything
00:51:18 <adu> if you do, then that's a bug in your OS
00:52:18 <adu> \oren\: what do you mean it "doesn't show up?"?
00:52:30 <fizzie> Oh, and the zero-width space *inside* the face is to stop the old myndzi script from triggering.
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00:52:49 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\342\200\213_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:52:49 <fizzie> Just so we wouldn't get the stick figure bodies for every non-existent wisdom.
00:53:07 <\oren\> I see (_o) as the face
00:53:48 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\302\260_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:54:41 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(ﾟ_o)/\302\257\n";'
00:55:14 <\oren\> Hmm I think ﾟ fits better than °
00:56:16 <adu> perl -e 'print "\302\257\134\050\302\260\342\200\213\137\157\051\057\302\257\012\n";'
00:56:19 <adu> `perl -e 'print "\302\257\134\050\302\260\342\200\213\137\157\051\057\302\257\012\n";'
00:56:24 <adu> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\134\050\302\260\342\200\213\137\157\051\057\302\257\012\n";'
00:56:28 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Ask oerjan, I guess: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/fec2e65e53bc
00:56:47 <adu> WTF is perl doing
00:57:35 <\oren\> perl -e 'print "\342\200\213"'
00:57:51 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\342\200\213"'
00:58:09 <lambdabot> APic said 7h 45m 8s ago: Thank You very much Dude, that was a quite helpful Message indeed!
00:58:38 <adu> `` perl -e 'print "\302\257\\(\302\260_o)\302\257\012\n";'
01:00:40 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: because having every nonexisting wisdom come with extra multiline noise got old _fast_ hth
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01:03:28 <oerjan> i did not see that one coming.
01:05:56 <oerjan> adu: protip: you can use ` with perl -e if you _don't_ quote the command hth
01:07:35 <APNG> imagine an esolang where you can define functions
01:07:51 <APNG> and you have lua varargs and tail call optimization
01:07:54 <APNG> and nothing else
01:08:01 <APNG> can you write complete programs with only that?
01:08:05 <oerjan> APNG: are you different from APic? you have different whois but i am getting a bit confused.
01:08:22 <APNG> oerjan, I'm Soni... who's APic ?
01:08:37 <oerjan> (thankfully du isn't a picture format. i think.)
01:09:54 <oerjan> APNG: have you heard of lambda calculus or combinatory logic?
01:10:14 <oerjan> or unlambda, an esolang based on the latter.
01:10:24 <APNG> yeah that's the inspiration for the idea, kinda
01:11:04 <APNG> any lambda calculus with tracing JIT?
01:11:18 <APNG> that sounds like it'd be very efficient
01:11:28 <hppavilion[1]> ("there is no apostrophy in "em" because "em" in this case is the proper pronoun, not the quasislang term)
01:11:40 <APNG> just considering my experience with tracing JITs and tail calls and varargs
01:11:50 <APNG> (altho I guess lambda calculus doesn't have varargs...)
01:12:51 <oerjan> you can do varargs in lambda calculus
01:13:16 <oerjan> but you need a way to pass the number of arguments.
01:13:48 <oerjan> (well, you can use a church numeral.)
01:14:28 <APNG> hmm that sounds hard to trace...
01:14:43 <APNG> maybe I'll stick with luajit :/
01:14:57 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> (Also, why don't we still have that?) <-- please clarify "that" hth
01:15:48 <shachaf> that sounds like something that you should be kept far away from hth
01:16:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ask myndzi
01:17:24 <oerjan> what e is, is 23 hours idle. sigh.
01:17:59 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Face cards for King/Queen, as normal, plus Bishops, Knights, and Rooks )
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01:20:21 <oerjan> all i know his surname is Shit, and no one understands him.
01:21:16 <alercah> a lot of people seem to know him though
01:23:36 <oerjan> i think that's the same kind of people who could care less.
01:39:48 <hppavilion[1]> The suits in #esoteric hold em are, of course, Clovers, Clubs, Tiles, Diamonds, Amethysts, Aquamarines, Emeralds, Rubies, Sapphires, Moonstones, Sunstones, Opals, Topazes, Turquoises, Ambers, Ivories, Pearls, Hearts, Livers, Gallbladders, Pancreases, Stomachs, Small Intestines, Large Intestines, Bladders, Lungs, Kidneys, Spleens, Pikes, and Spades, plus the extra Tarot suit
01:40:14 <shachaf> I think Double Fanucci is simpler.
01:40:36 <shachaf> "The original 15 suits (Mazes, Books, Rain, Bugs, Fromps, Inkblots, Scythes, Plungers, Faces, Time, Lamps, Hives, Ears, Zurfs, and Tops) each have eleven cards, valued at 0-9 and Infinity. The face cards are as follows: Granola, Death, Light, the Snail, Beauty, Time, the Grue, the Lobster, and the Jester."
01:44:58 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Also, you cannot play a king until we've figured out exactly who's king right now, as it's a very convoluted issue that we've been trying to figure out for at least 8 years
01:45:06 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
01:46:04 <hppavilion[1]> Each Queen in the deck can be either a Queen Consort, Queen Regent, or Queen Regnant
01:46:47 <oerjan> you also need a Drama Queen hth
01:46:59 <zzo38> O, so you have the French suits, Latin suits, and Fanucci suits, and also many others.
01:47:53 <zzo38> (Although, Pentacles are really just a style variant for the suit of Coins; some tarot decks have pentagrams on the coins, but this is not a requirement.)
01:49:23 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know about differential geometry?
01:49:29 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Drama Queen is in the same "Suit" (the "other suit") as Joker
01:50:17 <hppavilion[1]> Along with Riddler, Penguin, Catwoman, Two-Face, Harley Quinn, Clayface, Man-Bat, and Killer Crock
01:50:28 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not sure
01:50:40 <zzo38> What does differential geometry mean?
01:50:50 <shachaf> I was hoping you would know.
01:50:58 <shachaf> Cale told me there are no good books on it.
01:51:13 <zzo38> (Also, the Wands are really simply Rods. The kind of rods may differ between decks, so in some cases they are wands.)
01:51:37 <oerjan> i thought spivak's books were recommended? not that i've read any.
01:51:58 <hppavilion[1]> If a Pawn card defeats a King, it becomes Lord Protectorate, which is /definitely/ not a King (but is really exactly the same in every way)
01:53:15 <zzo38> What kind of game is that anyways?
01:53:34 <oerjan> shachaf: the ones with pictures, i think.
01:53:35 <\oren\> What if we had a game mixing up mahjong with shogi
01:53:44 <shachaf> oerjan: Not _Calculus on Manifolds_?
01:53:51 <zzo38> \oren\: I did try to think of such thing at one time but I don't know how
01:54:06 <shachaf> oerjan: I have that one. But it's not the one with pictures.
01:54:08 <oerjan> you are asking me about something i've explicitly told i haven't read?
01:54:16 <shachaf> Maybe you're thinking of https://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-Introduction-Differential-Geometry-Vol/dp/0914098705 and so on.
01:54:24 <hppavilion[1]> "The earth revolves around the Sun, but only while it's waxing"
01:55:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: maybe the Pawn could also become General Secretary hth
01:56:13 <\oren\> I took a course which had some calculus on manifolds in it. IIRC I got a good mark in it. I don't really remember much of it though
01:56:30 <shachaf> \oren\: Do you know Stokes' theorem?
01:56:56 <oerjan> \oren\ has been completely stoked
01:57:47 <shachaf> oerjan: as in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgXObaM9i2Q ?
01:57:58 <\oren\> it says the integral of something over the boundary of a thingy it equal to the integral of the thing's derivative over the whole surface
01:58:26 <shachaf> Right. What are these things?
01:58:47 <\oren\> uh, the first thing is a differential form
01:58:57 <\oren\> the second thing is probably a manifold
01:59:10 <shachaf> What should I read to be an expert in differential forms?
01:59:53 <\oren\> a differential form is basically a function
02:01:00 <\oren\> but it's equipped with a thing that tells you which way the output is oriented
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02:01:51 <\oren\> like if you have a f(x,y) -> (u,v) and you know the directions in which u and v are pointed you have a differential 2-form f
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02:02:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
02:05:27 <\oren\> And the derivative stokes theorem refers to,
02:05:47 <\oren\> is a thing thattells you not only the slope but which way the slope goes.
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02:07:06 <\oren\> so if your function f(x,y) outputs only one thing u, then df outputs two things, the slope over x and the slope over y, at that point
02:08:29 <\oren\> shachaf: so then if you take the derivative of a 2-form f on a 3-manifold then you get a df that has six dimensions of output
02:11:15 <\oren\> effectiively stokes theorem implies, amog other things that if there's some net flux outward from an area, then that net flux has to originate somewhere in the area
02:13:06 <hppavilion[2]> Has anybody ever made a system of serious government with "referee" as a position one can hold?
02:14:04 -!- hppavilion[2] has set topic: Absurdly long attention span. We'd fill this with several dozen novels' worth of text, but Freenode can't handle it. | The string theory channel | The interdisciplinary strange loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808.
02:16:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: well norwegian doesn't have separate words for referee and judge, so...
02:17:07 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
02:17:34 <hppavilion[1]> (Am I supposed to register my backup nicks? I assume so, but I haven't yet)
02:18:07 <zzo38> Use the NS GROUP command.
02:18:40 -!- hppavilion[1] has changed nick to hppavilion[2].
02:19:00 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
02:19:30 -!- oerjan has set topic: Absurdly long attention span. We'd fill this with several dozen novels' worth of text, but Freenode can't handle it. | The interdisciplinary string loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808.
02:21:11 -!- oerjan has set topic: Absurdly long attention span. We'd fill this with several dozen novels' worth of text, but Freenode can't handle it. | The interdisciplinary string loop of Esoteric Programming Language Design and Deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf.
02:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> Venerarchy: The awesomer you are, the more power you have
02:21:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you already made it too long tdnh
02:21:53 <hppavilion[1]> Audaciarchy: The most absurd policy automatically wins
02:22:22 <shachaf> did you know wolves typically only bark when they are pups?
02:22:23 <oerjan> @google the dogs now howl
02:22:25 <lambdabot> https://www.cesarsway.com/dog-behavior/barking-and-howling/why-do-dogs-howl
02:22:31 <shachaf> mature wolves don't usually bark
02:22:39 <\oren\> shachaf: I just went and dug up my textbook. It's http://fourier.math.uoc.gr/~papadim/calculus_on_manifolds/Munkres.pdf
02:22:59 <shachaf> but due to a spot of the neoteny, dogs never fully mature or something
02:23:00 <hppavilion[1]> (A policy is proposed, and a time limit is set to propose alternatives. At the end of the time limit, the most audacious policy is approved)
02:23:07 <shachaf> Cale: Any opinion on Munkres?
02:23:14 <shachaf> Cale: You said you hate everything.
02:23:43 <\oren\> Also, for some reason it is online in full in that professor's home directory
02:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> The idea is that, eventually, equilibrium is reached- in order to get a policy you like more approved, you have to make it so ridiculous that it defeats the purpose
02:24:29 <hppavilion[1]> ("We set up a program to offer medical care to people who need it, but it is only available to married bachelors")
02:24:35 <\oren\> Well, that's nice of him, many students can';t afford textbooks with the tuitions these days
02:24:53 <oerjan> Neotenarchy: The most childish people make all the decisions
02:31:41 <HackEgo> Your mysterious reanimate œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
02:32:03 <shachaf> they're extraordinary, so better be wary
02:35:16 <shachaf> \oren\: In differential forms, d(dx) = 0, right?
02:36:12 <hppavilion[1]> laudarchy: A type of democracy where the winner is chosen via applause-o-meter
02:36:47 <shachaf> maybe you should get a twitter account hth
02:44:44 <Cale> shachaf: I've only heard of his topology text
02:48:19 <Cale> http://fourier.math.uoc.gr/~papadim/calculus_on_manifolds/Munkres.pdf -- skimming through this, it looks pretty decent actually
02:48:52 <shachaf> Man, integrals and things are pretty magical.
02:49:09 <Cale> This might actually not suck, I'm surprised
02:49:27 <shachaf> Well, I already ordered Lee.
02:50:23 <shachaf> The derivative of f is so constrained that its integral can be evaluated just by looking at the values of f at the boundary.
02:50:42 <shachaf> Are there other things in maths that are like that?
02:51:23 <Cale> Well, complex analysis takes that kind of thing to an absurd level :)
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02:51:43 <shachaf> I should learn all about complex analysis too.
02:52:01 <shachaf> But I meant outside analysis.
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02:56:12 <Cale> In my head, it's similar to the way that in an ordinary category, if you have a polygon which commutes, there's nothing to say about why. (Thinking of 1-categories as a special case of higher dimensional ones.)
02:57:05 <shachaf> That you have equality rahter than isomorphism or something?
02:57:14 <Cale> Well, that polygon is the boundary of something which is uniquely determined by it.
02:57:38 <Cale> We don't usually even talk about that thing, in classical category theory
02:57:51 <Cale> Sort of the "witness" that the diagram commutes
02:58:36 <shachaf> Is continuity related to naturality?
02:59:24 <shachaf> I mean, there's the sort of obvious thing that you can't change the behavior of a natural transformation or continuous function at just one point.
02:59:29 <Cale> Well, the usual analogy is that categories are sort of like spaces, and functors are sort of like continuous maps between those spaces, and then natural transformations are like homotopies between continuous maps
03:00:09 <shachaf> Right. But I don't think that's what I'm talking about.
03:00:18 <shachaf> That would make functoriality correspond to naturality.
03:01:18 <Cale> Well, for given F, G: C -> D, the natural transformations F -> G are the same thing as functors C x I -> D, where I is the category with two objects and one non-identity arrow: 0 -> 1.
03:01:38 <Cale> and so natural transformations are like continuous maps of a particular sort
03:01:53 <Cale> But maybe that's still not what you're after
03:02:46 <Cale> oh, sorry, not just any functors of that type
03:03:01 <hppavilion[1]> The European Cheek Kiss thing (henceforth ECK) is akin to a US hug
03:03:19 <Cale> Functors H: C x I -> D for which H(-,0) = F, and H(-,1) = G
03:03:35 <hppavilion[1]> And in France, a US hug is about the same as a ECK is to Americans
03:04:14 <Cale> (henceforth ECK)
03:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> At what longitude (and perhaps latitudes, if it isn't a perfect vertical line) do these switch?
03:04:45 <hppavilion[1]> And is it a hard switch, or is there a region of transition?
03:05:13 <hppavilion[1]> During which ECK and hugs are equally acceptable or unacceptable (and which?)
03:05:14 <Cale> I believe that region is called the Atlantic Ocean
03:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> Cale: But even in international waters, it's weird near the US but not near Europe
03:06:01 <hppavilion[1]> My guess is there is a transition zone, and in the Northern hemisphere they're both acceptable whereas in the Southern hemisphere they're both weird
03:10:55 <hppavilion[1]> [July, 2026] "Good evening. Leading off tonight, a recent McGill University study finds that every Montreal resident between ages 16 and 60 has had sex with everyone else"
03:17:34 <zzo38> Unless there aren't so many people in Montreal at that time, I would expect such a thing to be unlikely.
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03:27:41 <\oren\> I'm trying to live stream my desktop with VLC, but youtube isn't getting it
03:34:13 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] you seem to be mistaking Europe for a country tdnh. ECKs aren't really acceptable in norway between nonrelated adults.
03:38:32 <Sgeo> "We realized that we were looking at something that no one had ever seen in the wild before. Literally a click on a link to jailbreak an iPhone in one step"
03:38:36 <Sgeo> Isn't that what comex did?
03:38:46 <Sgeo> Or did jailbreakme require more than that?
03:42:49 <\oren\> can you guys see this https://gaming.youtube.com/user/0r3nw4750n/live
03:43:11 <\oren\> I'm testing this stupid streaming thing
03:44:47 <\oren\> like, I can barely see anything, so...
03:45:27 <Sgeo> It's a bit low resolution but yes
03:45:52 <\oren\> and can you hear my voice ok
03:46:13 <Sgeo> It's a bit lagged though
03:46:29 <Sgeo> Both video and sound are behind. I was a bit confused at first
03:46:35 <\oren\> ok, good now I'm gonna try to get a game to run at the same time as the streaming thing
03:48:06 <Sgeo> Hmm, I should try streaming Worms Armageddon at some point
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03:57:00 <lambdabot> oerjan said 22m 46s ago: you seem to be mistaking Europe for a country tdnh. ECKs aren't really acceptable in norway between nonrelated adults.
03:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh. But OTOH, they aren't really accepted between related adults either in the US, or at least they're a little weird
03:57:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: and barely then, actually.
03:58:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i thought you meant they were accepted in france (which i've also heard)
03:58:59 <oerjan> definitely, you would use hugs for greeting in norway, and you'd want to be somewhat close even then.
03:59:16 <Sgeo> I don't even have W:A installed!
03:59:20 <oerjan> (otherwise defaulting to handshake)
04:01:16 <hppavilion[1]> So Norway is basically the US, except with happier people, better healthcare, public taxes, free university, and more singing ice queens.
04:01:36 <pikhq> Hmm, maybe we should give Minnesota back to Norway.
04:01:38 <oerjan> i may be slightly out of the loop there.
04:02:46 <oerjan> (i guess you might be referring to that frost thing. which is based on a danish tale, anyway.)
04:03:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: see, i'm out of the llop.
04:04:07 <pikhq> In effect? Well, Minnesota is basically Norway only with English, fewer fjords, and more lakes.
04:04:16 <oerjan> it may have been called than in norway. checking...
04:04:24 <pikhq> (Minnesota was largely settled by Norwegians)
04:04:38 * oerjan hasn't seen it, anyway
04:04:50 * oerjan has read the fairy tale at one point
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04:05:32 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, The Snow Queen does take place in Denmark (Daneland?)
04:06:01 <oerjan> well it starts there, it does have some travelling northward.
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04:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm pretty sure Frozen takes place in Norway (the appearance was based on going to Norway and looking around)
04:07:28 <oerjan> not much reindeer in denmark.
04:07:35 <hppavilion[1]> Also, one of the big plot points is that SOMEBODY freezes the fjord
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04:08:51 <hppavilion[1]> (or, well, a minor plot point that is mentioned by name once, and is really just a smaller-level symbol of the general badness happening)
04:11:13 <hppavilion[1]> "Numerous other typical cultural Scandinavian elements are also included in the film, such as [...] Fjord horses, clothes...."
04:11:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49673&oldid=49672 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+222)
04:11:53 <pikhq> The maypole isn't uniquely Scandinavian though.
04:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> AND THAT'S, LIKE, 1 LEVENSHTEIN AWAY FROM 'MAPOLE'
04:14:00 <hppavilion[1]> (embarrassingly, I needed to find an online calculator for that)
04:14:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[S.I.L.O.S]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49674&oldid=49673 * Rjhunjhunwala * (+70)
04:15:46 <hppavilion[1]> Two men apparently bicker over whether wood should be stacked bark-up or bark-down
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04:51:32 <zzo38> The name of my Dungeons&Dragons character are Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe and Zeux Agem. Do you like these (two difference) way to make up the name of your character?
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05:13:18 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: obviously, bark up
05:13:41 <\oren\> that helps stop the wood from rotting if your tarp gets blown off
05:15:05 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I'm sorry, has Norway not invented science yet?
05:15:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, does \oren\ have eir IRC client set up so e can queue messages until someone comes back online?)
05:19:24 <hppavilion[1]> Also, is bark-up and bark-down a political thing? xD
05:20:48 <hppavilion[1]> I feel like bark should be up so water can't get in, and so that water that does get in would- in theory- seep out the bottom (while if the bark was on the bottom, it would all pool there)
05:25:16 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: No \oren\ just runs his irc client on a constantly-running web server, and is pretty much always online assuming he is awake
05:26:39 <\oren\> hence I just wait until people come back online, and then start typing
05:27:31 <\oren\> oh am I mixing up mirc codes with ansi codes again
05:28:04 <\oren\> I just wait until people come back
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06:28:11 <HackEgo> U+262C ADI SHAKTI \ UTF-8: e2 98 ac UTF-16BE: 262c Decimal: ☬ \ ☬ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
06:28:34 <\oren\> WTF, that is the sikh symbol... the name is completely wrong
06:31:03 <pikhq> No, the symbol is called Adi Shakti in Sikhism.
06:31:25 <\oren\> all the sources I can find say it's called a Khanda
06:32:20 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakti appears to be a goddess
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11:29:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qwerp-Derp * New user account
11:49:56 <HackEgo> but//But is a Trintercal operator.
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12:54:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ℒight]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=49675 * TuxCrafting * (+3) Created page with "wat"
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13:48:37 <adu> APNG: I'm confident that lua ia Turing complete
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14:29:57 <b_jonas> Apparently Questionable Content is copying the idea from qwantz that you can read tomorrow's strip today if you subscribe.
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15:43:50 <\oren\> b_jonas: that would lead to problems every time there's a cliffhanger
16:07:49 <HackEgo> olist 1050: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:08:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: why? subscribed people experience the same comic, just shifted about a day in time
16:10:18 <\oren\> b_jonas: the issue is if subscribed people comment on say, twitter about it
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16:18:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: that's absolutely not a problem with qwantz, and probably not much a problem with Questionable Content, since it rarely has cliffhangers that are suddenly resolved in a strip.
16:24:05 <izabera> guess who just moved arin.ga to a new host
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16:33:18 <\oren\> it's hard to diagnose website failures with all the caching that goes on
16:33:47 <\oren\> there should be a cacheless mode for firefox
16:35:17 <\oren\> instead you have to know to hold shift while pressing the reload button
16:40:24 <b_jonas> \oren\: you can disable using firefox's cache at least, with the developer tools (or with certain plugins)
16:40:48 <b_jonas> (the server or proxy it contacts might still be doing some caching)
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16:52:58 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033\133\062\111foobar";'
16:53:10 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033\133\062\101foobar";'
16:53:38 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[31mfoobar";'
16:53:48 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[3Afoobar";'
16:54:21 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[2Jfoobar";'
16:55:03 <\oren\> ok, so irssi at least doesn't let ansi sequences go through and mess up people's terminals
16:55:44 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\tfoobar";'
16:59:54 <FireFly> \oren\: I think that might be replaced HackEgo-side maybe
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17:10:13 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[3mfoobar";'
17:10:28 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[2mfoobar";'
17:10:38 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[4mfoobar";'
17:10:42 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[5mfoobar";'
17:11:02 <\oren\> oh, irssi supports blink but not underline?
17:11:46 <\oren\> maybe it's apple terminal
17:11:48 <FreeFull> Also I'm surprised HackEgo doesn't filter out \033
17:11:58 <FireFly> weechat seems to render the \x1B as '?'
17:13:02 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[6mfoobar";'
17:13:11 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[7mfoobar";'
17:13:32 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[9mfoobar";'
17:13:38 <FreeFull> irssi by default supports these escapes too, in addition to IRC formatting
17:14:07 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[92mfoobar";'
17:14:14 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[102mfoobar";'
17:14:22 <FreeFull> `` printf "\x02Bold test\x02""
17:14:24 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 4: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/`: eval: line 5: syntax error: unexpected end of file
17:14:37 <FreeFull> Ok, that doesn't get filtered out either
17:14:51 <\oren\> FreeFull: but that's a mirc escape
17:14:55 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[1mfoobar";'
17:15:41 <FreeFull> Some clients render inverse video as italics
17:15:51 <\oren\> I see reverse video with underline
17:16:21 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\033[4mfoobar";'
17:16:37 <b_jonas> FreeFull: I think HackEgo only handles those three bytes specially that can't appear in an irc message protocol-wise.
17:17:10 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\x01foobar";'
17:17:18 <b_jonas> other bots differ, eg. jevalbot doesn't let you print colored stuff
17:17:33 <b_jonas> FreeFull: no, \x01 is only a client convention
17:17:35 <FreeFull> Yeah, the easy solution is to filter out all control characters
17:17:39 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\tfoobar";'
17:17:48 <\oren\> I see a reverse video I
17:17:55 <FreeFull> b_jonas: It did filter \x01 out though
17:18:28 <b_jonas> I haven't looked at the raw stuff
17:18:41 <FreeFull> b_jonas: It replaced it with a .
17:18:43 <b_jonas> maybe I misremembered then. does it also change \x10 ?
17:19:41 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\20foobar";'
17:20:15 <\oren\> I see a reverse video P
17:20:33 <FreeFull> \oren\: That's how irssi displays ^P
17:20:42 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\x10foobar";'
17:21:02 <FreeFull> Yeah, seems HackEgo doesn't filter it out
17:21:31 <FreeFull> \x0A will definitely be treated specially
17:22:14 <FireFly> `` perl -e 'print "foo\x01bar";'
17:22:20 <FireFly> I guess that is to prevent CTCPs
17:22:29 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "foo\12bar";'
17:23:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: isn't the ctcp already prevented by the prefix it puts at the start of the message?
17:23:29 <FireFly> Not necessarily. if you go ""by the spec"", CTCPs are supposed to be allowed anywhere in a PRIVMSG
17:23:36 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print "\200";'
17:23:53 <FireFly> FreeFull: it prefixes lines with a ZWSP I believe
17:23:54 <b_jonas> does anyone actually care about that spec?
17:24:04 <FireFly> Some weird clients do, I think
17:24:41 <FreeFull> FireFly: Lemme look at my logs
17:24:48 <\oren\> the prefix \xE3\x80\x8B
17:25:30 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print"\xE3\x80\x8B"' | od -c
17:25:31 <HackEgo> 0000000 343 200 213 \ 0000003
17:26:32 <b_jonas> there's so many stupid specs. I care about what the servers actually do (which isn't very well documented, so the best way to find out is asking on the #freenode channel and TIAS) and what other people usually send through their client
17:27:28 <FreeFull> FireFly: I don't see the ZWSP looking at my logs with a hex editor
17:27:42 <\oren\> `` dc -e '8i20o30013p'
17:28:48 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print"\xE2\x80\x8B"' | od -c
17:28:48 <HackEgo> 0000000 342 200 213 \ 0000003
17:28:55 <\oren\> `` dc -e '8i20o20013p'
17:29:24 <HackEgo> [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B]
17:29:36 <\oren\> `` perl -e 'print"\xE2\x80\x8B"' | unidecode
17:29:37 <FireFly> FreeFull: hm yeah, I dunno
17:29:58 <FireFly> Or it only adds that prefix in some cases, or something
17:30:01 <\oren\> `` unidecode `perl -e 'print"\xE2\x80\x8B"'`
17:30:01 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
17:30:22 <FreeFull> FireFly: I've checked the rawlog, no prefix there either
17:30:32 <FireFly> Yeah, I can't see any either when I look
17:30:33 <\oren\> I finally translated ​ into the prefix
17:30:52 <\oren\> it's a zeero width space, it's invisible
17:31:11 <\oren\> try setting your broswer to windows 1252
17:31:29 <\oren\> you should see ​ in front of every hackego message
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17:31:49 <FreeFull> \oren\: I'm not using a web browser to look at IRC
17:32:31 <FreeFull> Well, I guess I could open the logs in Firefox, won't change anything though
17:33:06 <\oren\> It will if you go to view->encoding->western(1252)
17:33:38 <FreeFull> Why didn't it show up in the hex editor?
17:33:43 <\oren\> that will allow you to see the raw bytes, with the encoding as seen here http://www.orenwatson.be/cp1252.htm
17:34:13 <FreeFull> Maybe it does prefix only certain messages
17:35:32 <FreeFull> \oren\: It's not in front of every hackego message, only a few of them
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17:40:38 <\oren\> weird, maybe just ones that contain a possible bot prefix at the start?
17:41:16 <FreeFull> \oren\: All the ones starting with control characters had it at the start
17:43:15 <zzo38> Allowing CTCPs anywhere in a message is something that my client does.
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17:45:27 <FireFly> b_jonas: one of the better pages on CTCP that I've found is http://www.kvirc.net/doc/doc_ctcp_handling.html
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18:18:47 <\oren\> ok let's see if this works
18:21:46 <\oren\> or, it doesn't for me, because the script is running on my irssi
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18:28:56 <\oren\> never mind, I'll learn how to make bots later
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19:35:04 <\oren\> hmmm... I need to figure out how to respond to messages.
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19:52:18 <hppavilion[1]> New rule: You use two spaces after a period, but one of them has to be zero-width
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19:53:58 <shachaf> Two halfwidth spaces is better.
19:54:23 <myname> neither makes any sense
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20:19:46 <\oren\> oh, beacuse of latency. lol
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20:28:32 <zzo38> The ISO 2022 code with ESC % should be define for use with UTCE. Even if selected, other DEC 7-bit codes should remain available as done in the terminal emulator that it is implemented in, such as VT100 character graphic shift outs and some of the other ISO 2022 codes that are supported by DEC terminals.
20:30:19 <zzo38> Apparently it would need to be register according to ISO 2375, but I don't know how that is working.
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20:37:00 <\oren\> ok, now I'll just add the actualy features I wanted
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20:54:53 <zemhill__> kaoD.sorry: points -12.02, score 15.84, rank 16/47 (--)
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20:56:47 <zemhill__> kaoD.sorry: points -11.86, score 16.31, rank 16/47 (--)
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21:06:53 <\oren\> hooray, I turned my delta v perl script into a irssi bot thingy
21:21:09 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 11.70 720 poodle
21:22:10 <\oren\> ❄dvcalc 16.12 720 poodle
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23:16:13 <\oren\> I'm now a bot! with two commands: ❄ping and ❄dvcalc.
23:20:03 <\oren\> I figured that ❄ would never be taken as a bot prefix
23:20:27 <\oren\> alercah: oh, I should add that
23:21:59 <\oren\> it took some work to get it to do it when *I* say ❄ping though
23:22:45 <\oren\> DHeadshot: once you've done it once though, you can just push up
23:24:19 <\oren\> Does math for Δv of a vessel. Usage: dvcalc <mass in tons> <fuel in units> <isp or engine name> [<fuel type>]; fuel types: lfo, olf, lf/nuk, xen, mono. If omitted, assumed to be lfo or the engine's type.
23:25:27 <DHeadshot> ❄ping - so it works with arguments?
23:26:20 <\oren\> yes, but ping doesn't actually look at them
23:27:57 <DHeadshot> ❄ping http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHDmdpsNdlc
23:29:39 <\oren\> for some reason none of the bot scripts I could find examples of were designed so that the bot can respond to itself
23:30:00 <\oren\> maybe they thought that was a bad idea for some reason
23:30:46 <DHeadshot> That's for safety, so I can't put "❄dvcalc ❄ping" or something
23:31:24 <\oren\> the otput of dvcalc is just a number
23:31:53 <\oren\> the number of m/s your vessel has left before Jebediah is stranded in space
23:31:56 <shachaf> copumpkin: You can write a "with" composition function too, can't you?
23:33:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: Ah, https://docs.python.org/2/library/contextlib.html
23:33:32 <fizzie> Your own outgoing messages are protocolistically quite different from others' incoming messages.
23:34:00 <alercah> \oren\: why is it dvcalc and not Δvcalc?
23:34:17 <\oren\> DHeadshot: yeah, so I'll make sure that if I add a thing that can output arbitrarystuff that there is some sort of preventer thingy
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23:34:55 <\oren\> fizzie: yeah, so I had to essentially write two handlers that eventually call the actual bot thingy
23:34:56 <shachaf> copumpkin: ..."Developers that need to support nesting of a variable number of context managers can either use the warnings module to suppress the DeprecationWarning raised by this function or else use this function as a model for an application specific implementation."
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23:35:48 <\oren\> alercah: better not to have more than one character that needs to be copypasted
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23:44:22 <HackEgo> the question//The The Question is the fundamental mystery of #esoteric, and boily is its master.
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23:45:25 <boily> hellochaf. looks like it.
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