00:00:16 <hppavilion[1]> Read these back to me in numeric format: sin, fot, footar,
00:01:05 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:01:14 -!- byteflame has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:02:38 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 15h 33m 21s ago: 300 reindeer were killed by lighting in Norway.
00:02:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: shocking
00:02:53 -!- byteflame has joined.
00:04:23 <oerjan> you cannot buy my kind of swatter, unless you find one of those little shops that weren't there the previous day and won't be there the next
00:05:20 <hppavilion[1]> Google Maps can probably direct me to one of those
00:05:34 <oerjan> i'm not sure google maps updates fast enough
00:05:36 <hppavilion[1]> Do they move each day, or do they only exist on some days?
00:06:01 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:06:01 <oerjan> they only exist in _this_ dimension on rare occasions.
00:06:56 -!- xkapastel has joined.
00:06:57 <oerjan> see the relevant discworld book for explanation, i think it may have been the Light Fantastic.
00:07:32 <oerjan> (it's where the Luggage came from.)
00:07:52 -!- bibibi has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:08:20 -!- izabera has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
00:08:28 <oerjan> hm looks like an epidemic
00:09:10 <oerjan> they weren't on the same server
00:11:01 -!- moonythedwarf_ has quit (Quit: See ya later, [INSERT_NAME_HERE]).
00:11:29 -!- Moonythedwarf has joined.
00:12:11 <oerjan> * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Can a (novel-length) book be written without chapter format without looking terrible? ) <-- hm aren't the discworld books written that way too... as a conscious decision.
00:13:04 <shachaf> I remember because when I was youngish, it was bedtime, and I told my mother I would just read to the end of the chapter.
00:13:18 <shachaf> And then it turned out there were no chapters.
00:13:38 <oerjan> "Very few of the Discworld novels have chapter divisions and instead feature interweaving storylines. Pratchett is quoted as saying that he "just never got into the habit of chapters",[5] later adding that "I have to shove them in the putative YA books because my editor screams until I do"."
00:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> Last time I went to the local Bibliorium I was looking for Discworld (specifically, The Colour of Magic), but they didn't have it
00:13:50 -!- izabera has joined.
00:14:10 <oerjan> looks like an unconscious decision that stuck, rather.
00:14:11 <shachaf> chapter? i 'adn't even met 'er!
00:15:16 <oerjan> Moonythedwarf: what are you ^ing
00:15:46 <oerjan> ^ doesn't work very well in ongoing chats.
00:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> My JUNIOR FEMALE SIBLING and I are reforming the calendar
00:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> 12 30-day months (plus a 5- or 6-day festival week), 5 6-day weeks to a month
00:16:27 <hppavilion[1]> (Weeks have always bugged me because they don't fit nicely within a month)
00:16:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it is actually somewhat recommended that you _don't_ start with the first one, since it's considered relatively bad. (i didn't follow that recommendation, possibly because i didn't hear of it in time.)
00:17:10 <oerjan> i think Mort is considered the first really good one.
00:17:31 -!- wob_jonas has joined.
00:18:09 <oerjan> no, it's the name of the main character, but it's also obviously a pun on the book's plot idea.
00:18:36 <shachaf> Sorting algorithms typically use <. Can they avoid any comparisons in any cases if they use <=> instead?
00:18:39 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I want to hear the Canadian national anthem, but altered to sound more disappointed )
00:19:10 <zzo38> You should need to know some way to determine what order they are supposed to be sorted in
00:19:46 <oerjan> shachaf: pretty obviously exactly when there are equal elements...
00:19:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: on chapters and Prattchet, see http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/words-from-the-master.html search for "chapter"
00:20:17 <hppavilion[1]> A list shuffle is just a sort where the comparison function is λ(x, y): return coinflip();
00:20:35 <shachaf> oerjan: For example, insertion sort will use the optimal number of comparisons with < if all elements are equal.
00:20:42 <oerjan> shachaf: well if there are no equal elements, you cannot get better with <=>. if there are, then you need to test equality so cannot make do with only one < between the relevant pair
00:21:11 <wob_jonas> ah, I see, oerjan already said that
00:21:47 <oerjan> shachaf: hm maybe not.
00:22:22 <shachaf> sort [x,y] = if y < x then [y,x] else [x,y]
00:22:30 <oerjan> shachaf: you have to be careful then to always use < in the direction that gives the stability you want, if any.
00:22:42 <oerjan> but i guess if you do that, then it works.
00:22:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I'm interested in the question both when stability is required and when it isn't.
00:23:12 <wob_jonas> oerjan: yes, but if you do a plain mergesort (not a two-way one) or a heapsort then I think it's relatively easy to do that without additional bookkeeping
00:23:13 <oerjan> because there's no harm in treating = as <= if they're in the right order.
00:23:47 <shachaf> There's no harm, but will any sorting algorithm do unnecessary comparisons if they think that <=?
00:23:58 <shachaf> Changed plurality mid-sentence there.
00:24:11 <oerjan> wob_jonas: sure, if you split in such a way that the lists to merge weren't interleaved originally.
00:24:47 <oerjan> actually i should have said < instead of <=, i guess.
00:24:54 -!- augur has joined.
00:25:28 <shachaf> <=> gives you more information, so it kind of seems that you ought to be able to use it.
00:27:22 -!- moonythedwarf_ has joined.
00:28:19 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> 12 30-day months (plus a 5- or 6-day festival week), 5 6-day weeks to a month <-- i think i've seen at least the first part somewhere...
00:28:24 -!- Moonythedwarf has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
00:28:59 * oerjan is bothered by week numbers, specifically by people using them when he has no idea when they are.
00:29:04 <shachaf> Maybe you're thinking of 13 28-day months?
00:29:55 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think you could have seen both
00:31:34 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the French Republican Calendar has 12 months with 30 days each plus 5 or 6 extra days outside of months per year, but it's not the first one to get that idea
00:33:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> A list shuffle is just a sort where the comparison function is λ(x, y): return coinflip(); <-- that doesn't actually work right, statistically.
00:33:53 <shachaf> oerjan: Depends on your sorting algorithm.
00:34:01 <shachaf> Certainly a lot of them assume transitivity.
00:34:29 <shachaf> If you use bogosort, it'll work correctly (but in 2^n time).
00:34:36 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, actually, non-transitive comparisons are interesting:
00:35:34 <wob_jonas> in particular, I wish some programming language libraries provided an interface for a balanced tree (and sort) ordered on a custom sorting routine that need not be transitive,
00:35:39 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Not sure if it's 2^n, as- in my understanding of bogosort- you just shuffle the list and check if it's sorted
00:36:09 <shachaf> Which means getting n coin flips to return true.
00:36:17 <shachaf> Or do you mean that it's 2^(n-1)?
00:36:31 <oerjan> shachaf: well it cannot work correctly with any method that uses a bounded number of coin flips.
00:36:58 <shachaf> What if it's sorting a list of length 2?
00:37:04 <wob_jonas> with the guarantee that two elements will be ordered consistently if they're in separate strong components of the comparison function, but not necessarily if they're in different strong components.
00:37:14 * oerjan ignores shachaf's last comment.
00:37:36 <wob_jonas> also, they should probably allow that comparison functions might depend on state, with similar guarantees.
00:38:16 <wob_jonas> so the lower bound search function in the tree can find any place within the strong component of what you're searching for.
00:39:31 <wob_jonas> so far I haven't seen any library that documents that it guarantees almost anything for an inconsistent or non-transitive comparison function, even though I think some _implementations_ might actually already guarantee this, and it wouldn't be hard to do so in most implementations
00:39:42 <wob_jonas> you can do it without overhead usually.
00:39:58 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I think that you can't even use the direct coinflip function; you need to either let the coinflip directly determine if you're done (O(2^-n), I think)
00:40:18 <hppavilion[1]> Or first chain it into something to check (which, yes, would be O(2^n). I think.)
00:40:29 <shachaf> I don't know what you're saying.
00:40:37 <shachaf> Nor why oerjan is ignoring my last comment.
00:40:40 <wob_jonas> Not every implementation supports inconsistent comparison functions, that's true, but still, the best ones do.
00:40:48 <oerjan> shachaf: because it's too trivial an objection.
00:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> If we could use time traveling computing, would algorithms be allowed to have negative O-time?
00:41:39 -!- polybot has joined.
00:41:43 <hppavilion[1]> And are there any conventional algorithms completing in O(k) time for which k shrinks?
00:41:43 <shachaf> Is it true just for 2 elements or for any power of 2?
00:42:09 <oerjan> shachaf: only 2 i think. 3 is always a factor of n! for n > 2.
00:42:25 <zzo38> What kind of algorithms will be O(sin(x))?
00:42:25 <shachaf> You can certainly end up with things like O(1/n) when talking about e.g. amortized algorithms.
00:43:09 <oerjan> . o O ( this ignoring is going well, isn't it )
00:43:28 -!- polybot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:43:29 <zzo38> Yes, and I don't know.
00:43:49 <shachaf> ignoring ring ring ring ring ring ring / banana phone
00:43:52 <hppavilion[1]> I have a feeling if you did have an O(sin(x)) algorithm, it'd just get simplified to O(1)
00:45:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think it's impossible for k to shrink for arbitrarily large data, because to be bounded it cannot actually _check_ beyond a certain portion of the data, which prevents it from shrinking below the minimum for that amount.
00:46:06 -!- wob_jonas has quit (Quit: http://www.kiwiirc.com/ - A hand crafted IRC client).
00:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> But with time travel-based computation, could a problem have a complexity of e.g. O(-n^2)?
00:47:23 <HackEgo> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
00:47:56 <oerjan> i'm not sure the banana phone can fit in there.
00:49:48 <shachaf> oerjan: It's a characteristic function, obviously.
00:52:11 <shachaf> If you write O(f) in computer science, f : N -> N is positive and increasing.
00:54:20 -!- polybot has joined.
00:54:21 <polybot> Type ~>help for all commands, and ~>help <command> for help on a command.
00:54:21 <hppavilion[1]> (Is O(3^n) allowed, or do all O(k^n)s just reduce to O(2^n)?)
00:56:18 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: rebooting and stuff).
00:57:24 <zzo38> The identification says it is Node.js based and is apparently on Google's server.
00:57:57 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: A public googlian server or, like, the thing Google itself runs on?
00:59:25 -!- polybot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:00:04 -!- polybot has joined.
01:00:04 <polybot> Type ~>help for all commands, and ~>help <command> for help on a command.
01:00:35 <polybot> commmands: ping, info, waitforMsgtest, talk, cat, art, solvefor, solve, done
01:00:41 <APNG> hppavilion[1], nah if I had a bot it'd support CTCP
01:00:51 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: if coding in c... o(n) o(n2), but it
01:00:52 <fizzie> Google Compute Engine has addresses like that.
01:00:56 <zzo38> Now there are some more command at least
01:01:14 <polybot> Invalid solver undefined, valid solvers are math.js, algebra.js and mathics
01:01:46 <zzo38> See if there is information on npm possibly?
01:02:04 <polybot> { [SyntaxError: Unexpected end of expression (char 21)] char: 21 }
01:02:06 <zzo38> There is no package on npm called "polybot" anyways it seem
01:02:26 <hppavilion[1]> Are any of these us: https://github.com/orgs/tjcsl/people
01:02:44 <APNG> refuses to catch on fire, apparently
01:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> moonythedwarf_: But probably an ultra-mega-badass one that does, like, solving the Riemann hypothesis
01:03:22 <APNG> hppavilion[1], I know fwilson
01:03:38 <APNG> but I doubt they have anything to do with it
01:03:39 <polybot> Invalid solver reimann_hypothesis, valid solvers are math.js, algebra.js and mathics
01:03:46 <APNG> hppavilion[1], personally
01:04:03 <APNG> we talk a lot tho
01:04:33 <APNG> ~>prexcl 3f println test
01:04:34 <polybot> [TypeError: Cannot convert undefined or null to object]
01:04:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> (Is O(3^n) allowed, or do all O(k^n)s just reduce to O(2^n)?) <-- they're not equivalent.
01:04:52 <polybot> [TypeError: Cannot convert undefined or null to object]
01:04:59 <polybot> [TypeError: Cannot convert undefined or null to object]
01:05:05 <polybot> [TypeError: Cannot read property 'toString' of undefined]
01:05:14 <moonythedwarf_> i've heard of algebra.js, its a literal, actually rather bad, calculator.
01:05:22 -!- fungot has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
01:05:48 <polybot> 0.7071067811865476 + 0.7071067811865476i
01:05:50 <APNG> hppavilion[1], well fwilson isn't even online atm
01:06:07 <polybot> { [SyntaxError: Value expected (char 1)] char: 1 }
01:06:28 <APNG> it does floats, nice
01:06:45 <hppavilion[1]> APNG: I think doing floats is the bare minimum for a decent calculator
01:06:55 <APNG> what happens if you mix floats and complexes?
01:07:09 <hppavilion[1]> APNG: It returned a mix of floats and complexes to sqrt(i)
01:07:46 <zzo38> Imaginary infinity? Wrong?
01:07:50 <polybot> [Error: Undefined symbol j]
01:08:12 <polybot> 0.7071067811865476 + 0.7071067811865476i
01:08:39 <hppavilion[1]> A GOOD calculator would be able to do quaternions, surreals, split-complex, duals, and Kleene Algebra
01:09:02 <APNG> ~>solve math.js (1,1,1) + (3,3,3)
01:09:02 <polybot> { [SyntaxError: Parenthesis ) expected (char 3)] char: 3 }
01:09:14 <APNG> ~>solve math.js (1;1;1) + (3;3;3)
01:09:14 <polybot> { [SyntaxError: Parenthesis ) expected (char 3)] char: 3 }
01:09:21 <APNG> can't do vectors
01:09:54 <APNG> are those vectors tho?
01:10:03 <APNG> moonythedwarf_, eh too lazy
01:10:28 <zzo38> Does the matrix multiplication working?
01:10:30 <polybot> -2.717038835061503e-4 + 3.399328988721386e-4i
01:11:40 <zzo38> ~>solve math.js [5,6;7,8] * [2,3]
01:11:48 <zzo38> ~>solve math.js [5,6;7,8] * [2,3;4,5]
01:12:05 <zzo38> ~>solve math.js [5,6;7,8] * [1,0;0,1]
01:12:15 <oerjan> fizzie: fungot got killed
01:12:15 <APNG> it doesn't do vectors >.>
01:12:34 -!- FreeFull has joined.
01:12:37 <moonythedwarf_> APNG: at least it knows what a mathmatical function is
01:12:52 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
01:14:18 <moonythedwarf_> thanks to presistance we _might_ be able to make a turing machine/state machine in it
01:15:21 <moonythedwarf_> thats a list of all things it supports, i think its extended tho, Riemann is not a default function in math.js
01:15:26 <APNG> it's not fwilson's
01:17:38 <oerjan> ~>solve math.js sqrt(i)/0
01:17:42 <HackEgo> danddreclist 82: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
01:18:24 <moonythedwarf_> its actually pretty good for a IRC bot with a calculator
01:18:26 <polybot> commmands: ping, info, waitforMsgtest, talk, cat, art, solvefor, solve, done
01:19:00 <polybot> http://lorempixel.com/600/100/cats/
01:19:04 <polybot> http://lorempixel.com/100/600/abstract/
01:19:49 <polybot> In che anno e iniziata la prima guerra mondiale.
01:20:07 <zzo38> I also don't know what it is.
01:20:34 <moonythedwarf_> the only thing thats actually useful here is the calculator (~>solve math.js)
01:20:57 <polybot> In[1]:= Integrate[1+1]Out[1]= Integrate[2]
01:21:09 <shachaf> This seems a little on the botspammy side.
01:21:25 <myname> i guess it calculates 12 inches * x cm/inches / y cm/foot
01:22:54 <polybot> Hello, this is polybot's owner.
01:23:12 <APNG> I like fucking bot owners
01:23:16 <APNG> may I fuck you?
01:24:05 <APNG> moonythedwarf_, lol, just playing with the bot
01:24:19 <polybot> im not a bot, im the owner of it speaking through it
01:24:32 <APNG> polybot, right...
01:24:35 <APNG> you look like a bot
01:25:23 <oerjan> APNG: you may have been a _tad_ impolite there hth
01:25:31 <APNG> you can't just say "goodbye" and keep the stupid bot in the channel >.>
01:26:32 <APNG> oerjan, my job is to just remove the bot from the channel somehow
01:27:41 <oerjan> APNG: i don't see the bot as disruptive enough to remove, yet. it's mostly just responding to people's commands.
01:28:10 <APNG> <polybot> Hello, this is polybot's owner.
01:28:15 <APNG> except for those
01:28:29 <oerjan> APNG: well that counts as human.
01:28:53 <APNG> then why's it going through the bot?
01:29:00 <APNG> owner's banned or something?
01:29:25 <oerjan> APNG: well that's _possible_ of course, but it also just be the mystery.
01:29:42 <shachaf> oerjan: myndzi is being disruptive by not adding bodies tdnh
01:30:04 <APNG> oerjan, seems easier to just remove it
01:30:17 <moonythedwarf_> shachaf: this room is already packed, full of esoteric madness and sanity
01:30:57 <HackEgo> This wisdom entry was censored for being too accurate.
01:31:20 <APNG> moonythedwarf_, /kick is easier than figuring out who's behind it
01:31:32 <zzo38> Do you like to make up the "esoteric programming" block of Magic: the Gathering cards?
01:31:39 <shachaf> APNG: You're being far more disruptive than the bot.
01:32:01 <shachaf> For example, you're being rude to the bot.
01:32:12 <shachaf> moonythedwarf_ is second-most disruptive.
01:32:20 <APNG> it's a bot .-.
01:32:34 <shachaf> You were being a jerk anyway.
01:32:41 * moonythedwarf_ hugs his silver metal for being second most disruptive
01:34:07 <fizzie> oerjan: Yeah, our internet is entirely down. Apparently there's an ongoing 6-hour maintenance window right now nobody saw fit to mention to us.
01:35:24 <moonythedwarf_> fizzie, can you give your opinion in the bot that popped up randomly recently, polybot?
01:36:37 <fizzie> shachaf: Either BT or my ISP (zen.co.uk), I can't quite tell from their status page.
01:37:04 <fizzie> There's been a bunch previously as well, but this is the first one that actually took things down.
01:37:17 <fizzie> Presumably they're actually doing something this time.
01:37:28 <oerjan> wat. i'm actually logging #esoteric.
01:37:43 -!- polybot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:37:50 <oerjan> i thought i had specifically told irssi to log only privmsg
01:38:26 -!- polybot has joined.
01:38:27 <polybot> Type ~>help for all commands, and ~>help <command> for help on a command.
01:38:53 <shachaf> polybot: i think the join message is unnecessary hth
01:39:17 -!- polybot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:39:46 -!- polybot has joined.
01:41:31 <APNG> polybot, stop making fwilson look bad, change the bot's name
01:42:09 <polybot> how does it make fwilson look bad?
01:42:27 <APNG> polybot, fwilson made a bot called polybot 3 or so years ago
01:42:32 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:42:50 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*nodebot@*.147.197.104.bc.googleusercontent.com.
01:42:51 -!- oerjan has kicked polybot.
01:43:13 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:43:53 <oerjan> APNG: our channel's most insistently returning troll
01:44:26 <APNG> oerjan, hmm...
01:44:29 <myname> it's not that insistent imho
01:44:37 <APNG> they don't seem to have signed their work...
01:44:49 <APNG> oerjan, how can you be so sure?
01:45:06 <oerjan> an interesting question. i don't wish that to be generally known hth
01:45:36 <APNG> in my experience, the ppl usually considered trolls tend to sign their work
01:46:45 <moonythedwarf_> oerjan, proof is needed. otherwise it can be considered a unfair ban.
01:46:49 <oerjan> APNG: hagb4rd has never done that.
01:47:24 <shachaf> maybe hagb4rd is oerjan's alter ego
01:47:27 <myname> somewhere else we have somebody in therapy who is joining at least twice a weak holding huge monologues insulting any possible human
01:48:38 <fizzie> In the next episode, oerjan turns out to be the polybot author and it was all some sort of crafty scheme.
01:48:41 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: myndzi is being disruptive by not adding bodies tdnh <-- tru.
01:49:02 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
01:49:03 <APNG> also plurals are cool
01:49:21 <olsner> shachaf: it takes two bots to party
01:50:16 <APNG> hppavilion[1], well they're forced to deal with so much crap that I find them cool
01:51:15 <APNG> not that kind of plural
01:52:16 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I see "algae" more as a mass noun more than a plural
01:52:29 <zzo38> You should need the proper proof otherwise is no good. Alternatively, can it be similar to zero-knowledge-proof? I think not.
01:52:40 -!- `^_^v has joined.
01:53:19 <APNG> plurals are cooler than plurals
01:54:11 <APNG> uh there's probably a better link I could use, but this'll do http://pluralityresource.org/plurality-information/
01:54:19 <hppavilion[1]> myname: And spaghetti is a dish, not a collection of individual objects
01:54:36 <APNG> that kind of plural is better than the grammar kind of plural
01:54:52 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, "duck" is its own plural (but "ducks" is also acceptable)
01:54:54 <myname> i used to fool my english class with people - peoples, pupil - ?
01:55:12 <APNG> 'peoples' is a thing
01:55:16 <myname> hppavilion[1]: spaghetti are more than one spaghetto hth
01:55:35 <myname> APNG: look it up. it's not what you'd expect
01:55:36 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I have never heard that. Is that actually valid Italian?
01:56:02 <myname> cappuccino is singular of cappuccini
01:56:19 <APNG> myname, it's impossible to look up
01:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> myname: "peoples" is a thing and everyone knows it. When "people" is used as a singular, it refers to a society (or ethnicity, etc.), and "peoples" refers to several of these
01:56:44 <hppavilion[1]> So "Native American peoples" refers to the various groups of American Indian
01:56:59 <hppavilion[1]> And buffalo is weird- "buffalo", "bison", and (to a lesser extent) "buffalos"/"buffaloes" are all correct
01:57:42 <APNG> but yes, this kind of plural is cool: pluralityresource.org/plurality-information/
01:57:49 <hppavilion[1]> (If you said "buffaloes" to someone who wasn't particularly invested in bison- e.g. anyone not from the midwest- they'd probably take a few seconds to catch the use of a weird pluralization)
01:58:15 <hppavilion[1]> (well, maybe not. But everyone knows what you mean and it sounds like it could be right.)
01:58:48 <myname> also, the same italian one: graffito
01:59:08 -!- APNG has left ("o/").
01:59:23 <hppavilion[1]> deers, fishes/fishies, salmons, sheeps, squids (huh, apparently "squid" is a valid plural. I guess it's just that if there's more than one squid, you're too busy screaming to talk about it)
02:00:12 <hppavilion[1]> How do you refer to a single piece of the blues genre?
02:00:50 <hppavilion[1]> ox -> oxes, child -> ...OK, "children" is the only acceptable plural of child.
02:01:13 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, "brethren" is just an archaic pluralization of "brother"
02:01:33 <hppavilion[1]> (How do you triple-plural person? person -> people -> peoples -> ???)
02:01:42 <shachaf> You must never say "brethren" and "brothers" in the same breath.
02:01:52 <shachaf> But it's OK in multiple breathren.
02:03:49 <myname> but oh welö, in german, the plural of "status" is "status", but with a longer u
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02:04:48 <myname> it is directly transfered from latin, i think
02:05:06 <hppavilion[1]> (I've heard people say that the word "bitch" (in the non-dog sense) shouldn't be used at work because it's sexist)
02:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> (OK, (a) it shouldn't be used at work because it's considered obscene, and you don't use obscene words at work in general unless you work for an institution that permits or encourages it (like a Porn site). (b) Really, it's no more sexist than "waitress" in my mind, because I've always thought of "bitch" as the feminine of "bastard". Now, using it to refer to a man, on the other hand...)
02:07:22 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I just learned about hyponyms and hypernyms, and now I'm happy
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02:14:14 <shachaf> In the US "pennies" is $/100 and "pence" is £/100
02:14:53 <shachaf> Actually maybe in the US "pennies" is only the coins, not the currency.
02:15:00 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But I've heard "pence", a hector times, and I'm just now learning that it just means "cents" in a way referring to the coin
02:16:19 <hppavilion[1]> (I assume when you're referring to pennies themselves you still say pence? Like, "can you make change for this" "No, I only have 8 pence" (when he has more money than that, but the price-offer relation requires nine pennies to make exact change))
02:16:25 <pikhq> shachaf: "pennies" would generally refer to the coin in US English.
02:17:07 <shachaf> The bizarre thing is that apparently some stocks are traded in pounds and some are traded in pence?
02:17:08 <pikhq> I don't think you would ever say "I only have 8 pennies" unless you literally only had 8 1¢ coins.
02:17:56 <pikhq> Huh, that is a little weird.
02:18:38 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_sterling
02:19:23 <pikhq> Not quite as weird as the now-historical practice in the US of trading stocks in 1/8th dollars.
02:19:49 <hppavilion[1]> Like, say, you're buying something that costs ¤9.91 and carrying a ¤10. The cashier has 1 ¤5-bill, 5 ¤1-coins, 1 ¤0.10-coin, and 8 pennies. AFAICT, he needs 9 pennies to make exact change. Could he refer to the pennies themselves as "8 pence", even though he has far more than that amount of money aggregate?)
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02:20:13 <shachaf> pikhq: I thought it was until 2000 or so.
02:20:26 <shachaf> pikhq: But now they're experimenting with making the tick size for some stocks $0.05.
02:20:46 <pikhq> Ah, I was quoting when the NYSE made the switch.
02:20:59 <pikhq> But the SEC required all other markets to make the switch in 2001.
02:21:23 <shachaf> Well, when one exchange makes the switch to a finer tick size, of course all the rest want to make it too.
02:21:38 <shachaf> But I thought it was later than 1997. But I'm not sure.
02:22:03 <shachaf> pikhq: What do you think the tick size should be?
02:22:13 <pikhq> The NYSE is by no means the only exchange; it's entirely plausible it took other exchanges longer.
02:22:45 <shachaf> You don't want it too small.
02:23:11 <shachaf> The SEC already thinks $0.01 might be too small.
02:23:28 <shachaf> Which is why they're experimenting with $/20.
02:23:30 <pikhq> There's a reason I didn't say FLT_EPSILON. :P
02:25:18 <hppavilion[1]> Personally, I think that value of a stock should be indicated by k ∈ ℂ
02:26:13 <hppavilion[1]> Ok, why 1/8? I mean, I'm sure the 8 is for technical reasons (2^3=8, ofc), but shouldn't they at least have used 16 (2^4, much nicer for bytes)
02:26:37 <hppavilion[1]> Really, I would've gone with 256 (2^8, 1 full byte, easy for computers)
02:26:53 <shachaf> In European markets tick size often varies with price.
02:27:05 <pikhq> It wasn't for technical reasons, it's for hilarious legacy reasons.
02:27:22 <pikhq> The US used to use the Spanish dollar, or pieces-of-eight, as currency.
02:27:23 <hppavilion[1]> pikhq: Ah, did their old computers use 6-bit bytes?
02:27:27 <pikhq> It had 8 natural subdivisions.
02:27:57 <hppavilion[1]> (I think there should be a metric unit of value of some sort)
02:27:59 <shachaf> But the minimum tick size *was* $/16
02:28:30 <pikhq> $/16 was switched *to* as part of migrating to $/10.
02:28:38 <pikhq> $/8 was the historical practice.
02:28:47 <pikhq> $/16 was the practice at time of decimalization.
02:28:54 <pikhq> Why this made sense is beyond me.
02:29:22 <hppavilion[1]> (What unit would the #esoteric system of measurement start with? As in, like, if we do time we can say that the base distance is how far light moves in that time)
02:29:25 <pikhq> Nothing, it's just weird to do $/8->$/16->$/10 rather than $/8->$/10.
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02:33:51 <hppavilion[1]> OK, base unit of distance is 0.865 meters (names later)
02:34:31 <shachaf> It's just a different number. Boring. All you do is multiply.
02:34:45 <shachaf> If you want something interesting, produce a whole new perspective on length and measurement.
02:34:47 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Yeah, I know, but that could be said of pretty much any unit
02:34:57 <shachaf> Like general relativity, maybe?
02:35:02 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, and how would one do that? I think length is fairly objective
02:35:17 <shachaf> Or special, I guess. Whatever.
02:35:32 <shachaf> That's one sort of perspective that could be esoteric. If it wasn't so mainstream.
02:35:42 <shachaf> Invent something like that.
02:35:46 <hppavilion[1]> "This is the perceived height of Einstein to a stationary observer while moving at 15% of the speed of light"
02:36:18 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Well what do you think would be interesting?
02:36:47 <shachaf> Linear inches would maybe be an esoteric measurement if airlines didn't use them.
02:36:51 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think it's even possible to esotericize measurement without losing any semblance of consistency
02:37:14 <shachaf> See, that's exactly why you need to step back.
02:37:53 <shachaf> One of the ideas is measuring time and space using the same units.
02:37:58 <shachaf> Maybe you can measure other things using the same units.
02:37:59 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I was going to go for things like m^(1/2) at some point
02:38:18 <shachaf> OK, that could be intersting, if you figure out something that works.
02:38:30 <shachaf> Certainly more interesting than 86.5% of a metre.
02:38:42 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: 86.5% of a meter is 1/2 the height of Hitler
02:38:56 <hppavilion[1]> (I was going to go for Turing, but I couldn't find his height)
02:38:56 <shachaf> OK, but that's not interesting.
02:39:10 <shachaf> You can use the smoot if you want.
02:39:55 <hppavilion[1]> The problem is there's no physical interpretation of root meters
02:40:20 <shachaf> Did I talk about volume time in here?
02:40:35 <shachaf> I think I did, and oerjan said something about how when all you have is nail polish, everything looks like a nail.
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02:41:42 <hppavilion[1]> (I think there's an equation with m^(1/2) in it, but I forgot what it is)
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02:47:41 <hppavilion[1]> You could measure expansion in m^2/s, I suppose. If you wanted to measure the growth of a side (assuming it's a perfect square; if it isn't, you math it so it is), you'd have to use m/sqrt(s)
02:48:42 <hppavilion[1]> If it had to be in per-second notation, you'd use m*sqrt(s)/s. If you measure it in what happens in 1 second, you get a result in m*sqrt(s)
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02:50:48 <shachaf> physical interpretations are for the physicists
02:52:40 <hppavilion[1]> You aren't being impure if you switch mindsets and only apply your mathematics at the very end (take a real-world problem, drop all the real-world stuff, do proper math, quickly turn it back into something real at the very end)
02:53:06 <hppavilion[1]> If you explain what's going on to the reader in real-world terms while mathing it, THEN your math is impure
03:16:46 <hppavilion[1]> I really don't like MKS; MGS would be objectively better
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03:22:47 <hppavilion[1]> If it's going to be entirely impossible to make Americans use SI, can we at least get them to use a YPS (yard-pound-second) metric variant?
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03:24:07 <shachaf> At that point, why not go the whole 8.2296 meters?
03:24:26 <hppavilion[2]> shachaf: And just switch to metric? Because Americans.
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03:37:42 <hppavilion[2]> (I want to see FFF, but with the additional base units for electric current, temperature, luminous intensity, and amount of substance)
03:38:58 <hppavilion[2]> (All unit names must start with F, and probably also the prefixes)
03:47:32 <HackEgo> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
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04:44:03 <HackEgo> 1134) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
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04:56:21 <zzo38> How capable is iCE40 FPGA compared to Xilinx, if IceStorm is used?
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06:00:42 <hppavilion[2]> Mathematical notation prank idea: if you have two variables h and p and you take their product, just call their product 'f' without explicitly stating so and act confused when people don't understand
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06:06:15 <hppavilion[2]> Also, single- and double-story a and g are different variables
06:06:52 <hppavilion[2]> Umlaut is an operator, but can only be applied to a (either kind), e, i, o, and u
06:07:30 <hppavilion[2]> w is equal to 2*u OR u^2, depending on the paper (be consistent in each paper, but feel free to change in different papers)
06:17:38 <zzo38> I suppose it is a new kind?
06:20:06 * hppavilion[2] . o O ( English needs some new bizarre letter variants that our ancestors will look at and say "huh, that's weird, didn't realize they used THAT historically" )
06:21:44 * Sgeo . o O ( I've only really seen . o O notation in JParanoia )
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06:42:11 <oerjan> . o O ( Do you have clearance to reveal that information )
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06:56:58 <izabera> last week on themoreyouknow
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06:58:53 <pikhq> Possible, but I don't know.
07:00:11 <pikhq> Apparently he died on route to a TV appearance commemorating the 7th anniversary of the state of Israel, though.
07:00:29 <pikhq> Oh, sorry. Not on route. Died intending to go to one.
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07:04:08 <pikhq> He was a Jew from Germany, so I can understand why he'd a) care to do such a thing b) be invited for such a thing.
07:04:56 <izabera> and, you know, the science thing
07:05:23 <izabera> your comment looks slightly racist
07:06:18 <izabera> implying that he'd be invited to tv shows for being a jew rather than for what he did
07:06:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49695&oldid=45967 * Martin Ender * (-86) /* Prelude */ update with shortened quine and correct line
07:06:48 <pikhq> No, more for the specific element of being for the 7th anniversary of the founding of the state of Israel.
07:07:46 <pikhq> i.e. that if he weren't Jewish it's rather unlikely they would think of having him for that particular event.
07:08:08 <oerjan> hm nothing caught in the wiki spam filter today
07:11:33 <hppavilion[2]> (It's hard to remember that Einstein had a mega-german accent)
07:12:08 <oerjan> got caught in two of the filters
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07:18:56 <hppavilion[2]> (I wonder what accent of german I'm learning- like, obviously, I'm going to have an american accent, but I'll also have an accent based on what my German teacher (who apparently doesn't have an accent according to other germans, despite being from Tennysee)
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07:20:03 <oerjan> just pronounce german like einstein pronounced english, and you'll be fine.
07:23:57 <oerjan> shockingly, irssi doesn't seem to have a simple command for sending ctcp replies.
07:25:24 <oerjan> shachaf: just found it hth
07:25:30 <zzo38> Can you use NOTICE command?
07:25:52 <oerjan> shachaf: no, because i'd already found it
07:26:04 <oerjan> sent the reply a second before
07:26:26 <shachaf> the point is, do you want to encourage the behavior
07:26:30 <shachaf> not just this isolated incident
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07:27:44 <shachaf> i can't decipher the previous acronym
07:28:03 <shachaf> i mean not the latest one but the one before
07:28:20 <oerjan> that's very meta-appropriate, in fact
07:30:44 <shachaf> mine was: that would have helped if only i had not found it first
07:31:38 <oerjan> `learn tanstaaha so please stop using them twh
07:31:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'tanstaaha': tanstaaha so please stop using them twh
07:32:45 <shachaf> `sedlast s# twh#. That would help.#;s# #, #
07:32:48 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanstaaha//tanstaaha, so please stop using them. That would help.
07:32:51 <oerjan> anyway, it was "those acronyms are unreadable, that does not help"
07:33:25 <oerjan> shachaf: how hypercritical
07:33:42 <shachaf> Have you ever been helped by a hairy toe?
07:33:51 <oerjan> you removed the hypocrisy tdnh
07:34:07 <shachaf> why would the dogs care about hypocrisy
07:34:25 <shachaf> wait, hyperccriticial/hypocritical
07:34:30 <shachaf> i'm missing a pun of some sort
07:34:57 <oerjan> clearly by removing hypocrisy, you are creating hypercrisy, duh
07:35:31 <oerjan> . o O ( what's duh an acronym of again )
07:36:20 <shachaf> You were talking about the sed
07:38:11 <oerjan> `learn aha would be a helpful acronym, but has a shedding problem.
07:38:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'aha': aha would be a helpful acronym, but has a shedding problem.
07:38:18 <shachaf> `learn AHA is a helpful acronym for American Heart Association.
07:38:21 <HackEgo> Relearned 'aha': AHA is a helpful acronym for American Heart Association.
07:39:23 <shachaf> You should revert my edit.
07:40:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
07:47:51 <HackEgo> Your mysterious reanimate œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
07:48:02 <shachaf> `slwd oerjan//s#reanimate#helpful#
07:48:04 <HackEgo> wisdom/oerjan//Your mysterious helpful œverlord kommisjonær immoritus oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Precambrian Norwegian who mildly dislikes Roald Dahl with a pasjon. Lately when he tries to remember a word, "amortized" pops up. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
07:48:41 <shachaf> Is it still true that when you try to remember a word, "amortized" pops up?
07:48:58 <shachaf> i just found out the identity of Betty Crocker
07:49:03 <shachaf> or the identity of [redacted]
07:50:34 <oerjan> shachaf: it might be, i haven't tried to remember a word in a while
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09:13:15 <fizzie> Phew, finally some internets.
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15:53:05 <alercah> fizzie: an internet? where?
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16:04:07 <fizzie> It came out of the wall at home.
16:28:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dbfi]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49696&oldid=30552 * Nthern * (+0) typo correction: CGBSI should be CGBFI
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18:34:57 <\oren\> President of the Phillipines Duterte threatens to eat terrorists.
18:35:29 <\oren\> "with salt and vinegar"
18:36:24 <myname> i like terrorists the most with fresh grilling marks
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18:52:02 <myname> anybody ever made some kind of a todo list for df-likes? i know there is that kind of stuff für roguelikes
19:00:15 <zzo38> I have not seen for either
19:06:47 <myname> roguelike howtwos usually advice you to hardcode levels at first and stuff
19:07:09 <myname> which makes lot of sense in that point
19:07:21 <myname> but is completely irrelevant for df likes
19:08:57 <zzo38> One forum I go on has now added a field in the user profile for RDF link (which says it can be used not only for RDF but also for RSS or Atom), although currently there is no way of automatically reading that file on the forum server since that would be more difficult to program and furthermore would cause problems when they upgrade the forum software.
19:09:32 <zzo38> myname: Well, I don't know df likes working, but I suppose what you said can be work for roguelike
19:09:51 <zzo38> What other advice did they give?
19:11:35 <myname> i'd have to look it up, i read that quite a while ago
19:12:02 <myname> but imho roguelikes and df likes are way too different to use similar approaches in design
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20:06:15 <Slereah> Is there a way to implement combinators using C# delegates without getting stack overflows
20:06:30 <Slereah> Doing it via string modification is straighforward enough
20:07:48 <Slereah> For instance, if I pick the Turing combinator U, then ``UUI = `I``UUI = ``UUI
20:07:56 <Slereah> Infinite loop but the string size doesn't change
20:08:22 <Slereah> But if I do it via delegates, the recursive function calls makes the stack quickly overflow
20:08:27 <Slereah> Is there a way around this
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20:16:00 <zzo38> I don't know how is C# working
20:21:55 <alercah> change the size of the C# stack?
20:25:41 <Slereah> that is not really a v. good solution
20:25:49 <Slereah> It will overflow in 3 seconds instead of 1
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20:34:23 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( There should be a programmer religion with numerology in hex )
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20:42:24 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: your random number generator came up with 0x600DD065! you will have good luck with animals today
20:48:28 <\oren\> with your birthdate and the current angle between the sun and the planet Ceres
20:48:53 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Seed with birthday, result is modulo Ceres?
20:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> (seed with birthdate via day^3+month^2+year using the reformed calendar)
20:52:02 <\oren\> My position on planets is that anything going around the sun that is round is a planet by the way
20:52:30 <\oren\> Ceres is spherical, therefore is a planet, not an asteroid
20:53:03 <Taneb> What about that tennis ball I lost in space that one time
20:54:16 <\oren\> Taneb: that's a very small artificial planet
20:55:28 <\oren\> the whole clearing their neighbourhood thing is just a stupid excuse to preven their being hundreds of planets beyond Neptune
20:56:36 <pikhq> ... and between Mars and Earth.
20:56:58 <\oren\> pikhq: there are very few spherical asteroids actually
20:57:25 <Taneb> I remember the first time I played KSP I got a single kerbal on solar escape orbit, largely by accident
20:58:21 <pikhq> Oh, huh, there's only one known object in the asteroid belt that's spherical.
20:58:33 <pikhq> Dwarf planet Ceres.
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20:59:43 <\oren\> pikhq: yeah. basically my position comes down to saying that the things the IAU is calling "dwarf planets" should still fall into the category of "planets"
21:01:25 <pikhq> \oren\: I don't really see why though -- clearing the neighborhood seems not-insignificant.
21:01:47 <shachaf> "What's the degree of (x-a)(x-b)...(x-z)?"
21:02:33 <izabera> shachaf: does that include x-x ?
21:02:52 <\oren\> pikhq: it's defined arbitrarily though. There are a ton of asteroids that pass close to all the planets
21:13:33 <\oren\> I think it's just an excuse so they don't have to keep revising the number of planets
21:15:56 <HackEgo> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
21:17:13 <hppavilion[1]> He said that, despite nonviolence being the best strategy /usually/, Hitler was kind of bad and we need to fight him anyway
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21:35:43 <gamemanj> I say Pluto is a planet just so that we can keep things consistent as to how they were, and then say "the 2000s were weird".
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21:36:30 <myname> there is an episode of rick&morty about that
21:37:25 <HackEgo> You like Gaspacho and I like Gazpacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
21:37:34 <HackEgo> gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
21:38:27 <shachaf> `learn Tarator is a Bulgarian soup, traditionally served cold for hot summer days.
21:38:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'tarator': Tarator is a Bulgarian soup, traditionally served cold for hot summer days.
21:39:18 <myname> why doesnjt it spell "szoup"?
21:43:18 <HackEgo> 2015-08-13 <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ 2015-08-12 <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ 2014-03-16 <oerjan> revert \ 2014-03-16 <elliott> revert 1 \ 2013-07-31 <Bike> revert \ 2013-07-31 <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 87c64ef250a0 \ 2013-02-13 <ais523> revert 3
21:43:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/gazspaczo \ wisdom/disflagrate \ wisdom/szoup
21:43:41 <HackEgo> gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
21:43:47 <HackEgo> A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
21:43:51 <HackEgo> disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized.
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21:55:57 <FreeFull> `wisdom lecsó Delicious hungarian stew, made with peppers and tomatoes
21:55:58 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
21:56:10 <FreeFull> I don't remember how to make new ones
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22:04:36 <zzo38> Are there any languages that are LL(1) but are not LR(1)?
22:15:55 <Taneb> shachaf, is Bulgarian LL(1) but not LR(1)?
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22:34:05 <\oren\> argh, I'm loding my credentials as nativ english speaker
22:34:33 <\oren\> i can't stop making grammatical and spelling problems
22:35:21 <\oren\> I wrote "with suport of" instead of "with support for"
22:37:21 <\oren\> and above you can see more malapropisms
22:41:10 <izabera> https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Haskell/Zippers
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