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00:07:07 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Perhaps #esoteric should start using Chess Annotation Symbols (??, ?, ?!, !?, !, !!) constantly, possibly when livereading active conversations )
00:07:36 <oerjan> . o O ( that idea is ?? )
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00:08:43 <fizzie> ITYM ⁇ ⁈ ⁉ and ‼ HTH HAND
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00:09:54 <fizzie> ¿What, compose-?-? just yields a ¿?
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00:12:30 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1975 confuses me...
00:13:07 <hppavilion[1]> And in the event of 9-9 he wanted the current champion (which would be him) to keep the title
00:13:36 <hppavilion[1]> In the event of 9-9 in a "first to win 10" format, wouldn't the correct response be "play one more game, the winner is the overall winner"?
00:14:20 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, wait, I guess the rationale is that if the score is 9-9, the players are about evenly matched and the 10th game is pretty much decided by a coin toss...
00:14:54 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( How about "first to win 3 more games than the other has won?" (or some s/3/n/ for integer n)? )
00:15:59 <oerjan> that could in theory last forever
00:22:13 <fizzie> I vaguely recall that the expected value of the absolute distance after N steps of 1-d random walk is something non-constant, which I guess would mean it'd be increasingly unlikely to continue? (Of course you could presumably use that as an argument against any sort of constant difference N as well, since it'd mean exactly evenly matched participants would reach that disparity eventually.)
00:26:42 <oerjan> at least sqrt(n) disparity hth
00:27:12 <oerjan> (that may or may not be the right order)
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00:33:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: no, I think all LL(1) languages are LR(1). I could be wrong though.
00:34:24 <wob_jonas> I'm looking for a mechanical keyboard. Why does it seem like all good mechanical keyboards are horribly expensive?
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00:39:32 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure all LL(1) _languages_ are LR(1). not quite sure about _grammars_.
00:40:08 <wob_jonas> I want a clicky keyboard for home with 50 g force and 101/104 key US layout.
00:40:13 <oerjan> (for the first, an LL(1) recognizer is pretty obviously implementable as a deterministic pushdown automaton)
00:42:16 <wob_jonas> Seriously, they're horribly expensive.
00:42:21 <oerjan> well, an LR(1) grammar is one which needs only 1 token lookahead at the end of a production, while iirc an LL(1) grammar is one that needs only one token lookahead at the _beginning_ iirc. assuming that, it's pretty trivial for grammars too.
00:42:22 <wob_jonas> Why do they have to cost this much?
00:42:42 <oerjan> (to be sure that the production is chosen)
00:42:49 <wob_jonas> How did people even have keyboards for their computers back twenty or thirty years ago when mechanical keyboards were the norm?
00:43:12 <fizzie> It's the market in action hth
00:44:33 <fizzie> You can do other kinds of keyboards cheaper and satisfy the majority of people and so on and so forth.
00:47:13 <zzo38> I like the IBM Model F keyboard
00:47:59 <hppavilion[1]> Game: Total Shuffle Chess (AKA Chess60277490498889369439384431508790906881064404967751680)
00:49:17 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] ------###
00:49:18 <hppavilion[1]> (well, it might actually be more like Chess15069372624722342359846107877197726720266101241937920 as castling becomes irrelevant and/or impossible)
00:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Your addiction to swatting indicates deeper issues, and that you're a broken human being worth less than fertilizer
00:52:11 <oerjan> i don't find your putdown as deterministic as my swatter hth
00:57:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I don't think CS has a concept of /how/ deterministic something is; only whether or not it is
00:57:39 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently Bobby Fischer was an anti-semitic asshole (also a holocaust denier)
00:58:53 <oerjan> the CS thing, that is. the other i'm ignoring.
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01:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> I think he was... he said he agreed with Nietzsche that "religion is just to dull the senses of the people"... and yet he published "My 60 Memorable Games" because he thought the rapture was coming soon and figured he'd make some cash first
01:02:23 <oerjan> one day soon, deep learning will allow us to say /ignore hppavilion[1] when he brings up ancient crap
01:03:06 <wob_jonas> "We only ship to Worldwide." -- perfect Engrish grammar
01:03:09 <oerjan> your addiction to bringing up crap indicates deeper
01:03:09 <oerjan> issues, and that you're a broken human being worth less
01:04:35 <oerjan> i have paste_detect_time = 100msecs and that's somehow not enough.
01:04:41 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: You can only get their stuff in Worldwide, Massachippissippi hth.
01:06:18 <hppavilion[1]> I needed a joke and that was the best I could come up with.
01:08:46 <oerjan> i was going to bring up Usa, Japan but wikipedia crushed my childhood again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usa,_%C5%8Cita#Product_labeling
01:11:05 <oerjan> (wait, does this count as ancient crap, argh)
01:11:40 <wob_jonas> Done. I've ordered a mechanical keyboard.
01:11:55 <oerjan> YOU CANNOT DOWNLOAD A KEYBOARD, SILLY
01:12:24 <wob_jonas> I'm not downloading it. It will get here the slow way, on legs.
01:12:40 <wob_jonas> Takes some time because it has to go around the globe, and not even in a straight line.
01:13:06 <wob_jonas> (Can't withstand the pressures deep inside Earth.)
01:13:25 <oerjan> do the legs at least not have to swim
01:13:49 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I think it can take a ship or something
01:14:28 <wob_jonas> Not if it's only a small part of the route, I think.
01:15:16 <wob_jonas> But maybe it doesn't even need a ship, and can come through all land the long way.
01:17:04 <wob_jonas> wob_jonas: I don't think so. It's shipping from Hong Kong, and probably made there.
01:17:12 <wob_jonas> I'm not really sure where these things are made really.
01:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> TIL "Philippines" is spelled with a 'ph' and "Filipino" is spelled with an 'f'
01:25:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well in norwegian, they're both spelled with F hth
01:26:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you'll probably need a work permit for that hth
01:27:10 <oerjan> or possibly, you could find a norwegian to marry.
01:27:59 <oerjan> i suspect you're unlikely to be granted political asylym, anyway.
01:31:31 <hppavilion[1]> Most likely scenario is a Trump presidency, which in the event of I'm genuinely considering leaving the country
01:35:53 <oerjan> even with a trump presidency, political asylum may not be automatic hth
01:37:30 <hppavilion[1]> And Norway wasn't high on the list of destinations
01:37:48 <oerjan> HOW DARE YOU NOT BUT NORWAY FIRST
01:38:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's a great country, but it isn't primarily english-speaking
01:38:43 <wob_jonas> oerjan: Norway is nice, I visited in August
01:38:59 <wob_jonas> hpp: what? Norway is as good as English speaking. most people there speak English, you can get by with English.
01:39:14 <wob_jonas> and besides, if you already know English, then Norwegian isn't that hard to learn
01:39:15 <alercah> my roommate and I are experimentingn with canadian banking regulations
01:39:29 <alercah> I wrote him my rent cheque on the inside flap of a macaroni carton in sharpie
01:39:56 <hppavilion[1]> alercah: Are the Canadian bank rules that you don't have to write cheques on the official paper?
01:40:00 <wob_jonas> oerjan: did you really remain the only Norwegian regular in the channel?
01:40:39 <oerjan> wob_jonas: there was another recently, but e hasn't been active enough for me to remember who it was...
01:41:10 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's our northernmost county (excluding svalbard)
01:41:20 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's Finland+Denmark... but it's in Norway...
01:41:23 <wob_jonas> .oO( minpoijjikop isn't a regular )
01:42:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: funny, we also had an episode in the channel a few years ago when someone found out about the name Finnmark (possibly from me) and was amazed by it
01:42:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: never heard of that town
01:43:09 <oerjan> it's in Hedmark, in the south of the country.
01:43:12 <wob_jonas> Ah, apparently Finnmark is a county within Norway
01:43:20 <alercah> hppavilion[1]: yes, as I understand them, you can write a cheque on anything so long as it contains the requisite information
01:43:21 <oerjan> wob_jonas: I SAID THAT
01:43:41 <hppavilion[1]> (it also might not be big enough that anybody knows, the same way I've never heard of Arnold, Nebraska)
01:44:07 <wob_jonas> hpp: or maybe it's so far to the north that nobody goes there
01:46:25 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, Google Maps only knows about one in... Meraker? I assume that's a Norwegian county?
01:46:57 <wob_jonas> It would be nice to know for me too which places within Europe are good for living and working in case I want to leave.
01:47:10 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw the Finn in Finnmark is the same word as Fin in Finland. afaik (1) there may be some finnish-norwegians ("kvener") there (2) people probably didn't consider the distinction between Finnish and Sami that important back then
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01:49:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw Trønnes is a "grend", which is very small, so more a village than a town.
01:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> (not really sure where any of the boundaries are... in my mind, village/town and town/city are interchangeable, and at the same time "city" can describe pretty much anything)
01:51:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: Meråker is a municipality. it's part of Nord-Trøndelag county.
01:52:49 <oerjan> btw the Trønnes i found (on norwegian wikipedia) is not there. it apparently has the distinction of being the first place in norway to get a home for the elderly.
01:53:33 <wob_jonas> hpp: Norway has fjords, not fnords
01:53:52 <hppavilion[1]> wob_jonas: I was under the impression a fnord is a co-fjord
01:54:00 <oerjan> well no one expects you to see the fnords
01:54:03 <hppavilion[1]> My browser abbreviates titles when I have too many tabs, and it abbreviated "Grandmaster (chess) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia" to "Grandma". I can't complain.
01:54:42 <fungot> wob_jonas: guile was covered a few minutes
01:54:44 <oerjan> i don't know, never heard of ania before.
01:55:26 <hppavilion[1]> Will your brain rearrange things to fill in the gap (so if you have a page where a different word on each line, and one of the words is "fnord", will you see a blank line or will all the later words move down?)
01:55:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think that according to some, a city needs to contain a cathedral hth
01:55:52 <oerjan> anyway, Trønnes in Hedmark has only about 100 families
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01:56:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Can we define a gigalopolis as 1000000000 or more individuals?)
01:56:48 <wob_jonas> hpp: or a city-planet like Corouscant or Trantor or Ravnica
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01:58:41 <wob_jonas> So anyway, keyboard is ordered, but I'll also have to buy a new computer. I'll have to choose a motherboard and stuff.
01:59:00 <oerjan> then there's dyson spheres, i guess
01:59:49 <oerjan> and beyond that it seems a bit hard to get a continuous city. well, not that it's easy with a dyson sphere, i think those aren't actually realistically solid?
02:00:27 <wob_jonas> oerjan: Trantor isn't realistic either
02:00:28 <oerjan> (just need to invent scrith[sp] first)
02:01:29 <HackEgo> tas//TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
02:02:07 <oerjan> gigalo- is a little scow. you're basically taking the greek prefix megalo- (from which mega- comes), and pretending it contains a mega- prefix.
02:02:48 <oerjan> giganto- would be more parallel.
02:03:09 <oerjan> is the next terato-, hm
02:03:54 <oerjan> and from there i'm not sure they come from genuine greek.
02:05:06 <oerjan> hm actually it does, but not in a useful way, peta- is from penta-
02:07:38 <HackEgo> 2016-05-07 <oerjan> ` sed -i \'s/A //\' wisdom/tas \ 2016-05-07 <oerjan> ` mv wisdom/ta{,s}; sed -i \'s/^/A /\' wisdom/tas
02:08:10 <HackEgo> 2016-05-07 <oerjan> ` mv wisdom/ta{,s}; sed -i \'s/^/A /\' wisdom/tas \ 2016-05-06 <coppro> learn TAS is a tool-assisted speedrun: a race in which participants must use quality tools such as the PHP hammer, Autoconf, and the Arkenpliers to assist them in running.
02:08:23 <oerjan> it really didn't seem like my style :P
02:09:06 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:09:12 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the axiom of choice, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, and histograms.
02:09:38 * oerjan gives shachaf a dowg snack
02:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: No, I took mega- from megalopolis and replaced it with giga- (because metric)
02:11:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's what i said
02:14:33 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
02:15:07 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
02:15:31 <oerjan> `slwd culprits//s/the lists //
02:15:49 <oerjan> `slwd culprit//s/the lists //
02:15:51 <HackEgo> wisdom/culprit//`culprits` is a program that lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
02:16:14 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/culprit{,s}
02:16:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: terato- is somewhat different. hm.
02:18:30 <oerjan> well, it's a very cromulent word.
02:19:54 <hppavilion[1]> (but it says comparative is "more ginormous" and superlative is "most ginormous", when it would correctly be "ginormouser" and "ginormousest")
02:19:59 <\oren\> I tought it was spelled gynormous
02:20:01 <wob_jonas> oerjan: no, I think terato is right. I think it's greek for monster-like, and related to the same word the metric prefix tera comes from
02:20:34 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: No, that's a domain-specific thing used by OB/GYNs
02:21:15 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, why doesn't English include the opposite of -er and -est for "more" and "most"? Something to say "less" and "least"?)
02:22:35 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> What's "mg"? <-- velarized m, maybe?
02:23:18 <oerjan> of course, n can also be velarized, which seems confusing.
02:23:21 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I don't think a velarized m makes sense
02:24:50 <wob_jonas> hpp: ɱ in IPA is not a velarized m
02:24:58 <oerjan> wob_jonas: oh, because m doesn't use the tongue to start with? but m can be palatalized...
02:25:40 <oerjan> i'm not really good at distinguish velarization for anything but l, anyway.
02:25:58 <wob_jonas> hpp: [ɱ] in IPA is the the nasal stop version articulated at the same place as f, which you get from some speakers when they pronounce nf or mf
02:26:58 <oerjan> wob_jonas: most likely terastios is also related to the same word, so...
02:27:19 <wob_jonas> called "labiodental" because it's made with your upper teeth pressed to your lower lips, and "labio" means lips and "dent" means teeth
02:27:30 <wob_jonas> the names there actually make sense
02:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> 'm' is the bilabial nasal because your lips are pushed together (in the exaggerated version you're taught in preschool)
02:28:15 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: long words in english don't usually take -er and -est comparatives. hth.
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02:28:45 <wob_jonas> these are easy to understand because they ([m], [f], [T]) are the three common places of articulation that you can actually see easily from lip-reading ([m] only when not at the start of a word)
02:28:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: English is my L1. I think I know the rules. hth.
02:28:56 <hppavilion[1]> Then... I have no idea what the equivalent of ng is for m
02:29:05 <wob_jonas> the other stuff is in your mouth, so you like need X-ray to understand them
02:29:15 <wob_jonas> X-ray has been done of course, but it's not something you see every day
02:29:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> (It MUST have historically at some point...) <-- well norwegian doesn't, and i don't remember any indoeuropean language i've seen doing so.
02:30:38 <hppavilion[1]> You can understand stuff without x-ray if you just pay attention to your mouth
02:32:31 <oerjan> wob_jonas: hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_phonology#Consonants has velarized mˠ
02:36:13 <Phantom__Hoover> i was reading about velarised m recently because it finally answered my long-running mystery of why mh is pronounced /v/ some of the time and /w/ others
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02:38:23 <oerjan> argh irish distinguishes nʲ and ɲ
02:39:16 <hppavilion[1]> I can't see the difference between the m in 'symphony' and the m in 'rum'
02:40:33 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, I was discussing that there's apparently a difference with my mother. She asked why there were labia in my nose. I had to explain the root to her.)
02:42:54 <oerjan> also distinguishes n̪ˠ from ŋ
02:45:02 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: oh so the mh in your name is pronounced like w?
02:48:53 <oerjan> oh right, omh refers to another table
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02:51:29 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a name for the velarized m? "velar bilabial nasal" didn't turn up anything
02:51:35 <oerjan> iiuc it lengthens the o
02:51:53 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: velar and velarized are not the same thing
02:52:55 <oerjan> however, i don't think wikipedia has articles for all combinations with velarized... it's an adjustment you can apply to many consonants.
02:53:05 <oerjan> see the velarization article
02:53:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: velar is primary articulation, but velarized means a secondary articulation in _addition_ to the primary one.
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02:54:03 <oerjan> same for palatal and palatalized
02:55:01 <hppavilion[1]> (also, is there any relation between n and h, or is it just similar symbols?)
02:55:44 <oerjan> they're presumably both inherited from the phoenician alphabet
02:57:29 <oerjan> n from Nun. apparently it descends from the egyptian symbol for snake, "djet", and was used for a sound like english J there
02:58:11 <oerjan> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N)
02:58:48 <oerjan> h from Heth, via greek Heta before that lost the H
02:59:17 <oerjan> i see, that explains why eta looks like H
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02:59:41 <oerjan> "The original Semitic letter Heth most likely represented the voiceless pharyngeal fricative (ħ). The form of the letter probably stood for a fence or posts."
02:59:49 <oerjan> anyway, those articles say more.
03:01:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: anyway, n is pretty far from h in sound, and always has been.
03:02:48 <oerjan> unlike U,V,W and Y, which all descend from the same letter hth
03:04:06 <oerjan> oh, and apparently F too
03:05:59 <oerjan> first greek adapted F into a vowel Y, then latin got F with the original sound, borrowed greek Y as V, then borrowed it _again_ as Y, and then created U to distinguish when V was a vowel.
03:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: ſ looks too much like it's supposed to be esh
03:06:56 <oerjan> and then someone created W from V, i guess.
03:11:26 <oerjan> actually greek had both F and Y, but lost the w sound that the former represented.
03:11:47 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F#History
03:14:06 <hppavilion[1]> I was just looking for something similar to k, but without the sudden stop
03:14:20 <hppavilion[1]> And I wound up in Germany with the voiceless velar fricative
03:17:02 <oerjan> *Ach du liebe Phonetik
03:26:44 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Is there a letter that completes n:m::h:_? I can't find any such thing, but it'd be fun to mess with people with )
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05:14:07 <oerjan> looks like wikipedia is celebrating Star Trek's 50th anniversary
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06:01:56 <Cale> hppavilion[1]: k
06:02:40 <Cale> mathematical convention :)
06:03:05 <Cale> Just as n and m get used as variables of a similar sort, h and k sometimes do as well
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06:04:03 <oerjan> Cale: i think he meant visually
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06:05:36 <Cale> So like ɰ rotated 180 degrees
06:06:01 <HackEgo> [U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG]
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06:06:24 <HackEgo> U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG \ UTF-8: c9 b0 UTF-16BE: 0270 Decimal: ɰ \ ɰ \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0271 LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH HOOK \ UTF-8: c9 b1 UTF-16BE: 0271 Decimal: ɱ \ ɱ (Ɱ) \ Uppercase: U+2C6E \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \
06:06:43 <oerjan> `unicode M WITH | grep 'M WITH'
06:06:45 <HackEgo> U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG \ UTF-8: c9 b0 UTF-16BE: 0270 Decimal: ɰ \ ɰ \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0271 LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH HOOK \ UTF-8: c9 b1 UTF-16BE: 0271 Decimal: ɱ \ ɱ (Ɱ) \ Uppercase: U+2C6E \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \
06:06:52 <oerjan> `` unicode M WITH | grep 'M WITH'
06:07:07 <oerjan> `` unicode 'M WITH' | grep 'M WITH'
06:07:09 <HackEgo> U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG \ U+0271 LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH HOOK \ U+04CD CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER EM WITH TAIL \ U+04CE CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER EM WITH TAIL \ U+0616 ARABIC SMALL HIGH LIGATURE ALEF WITH LAM WITH YEH \ U+06B5 ARABIC LETTER LAM WITH SMALL V \ U+06B6 ARABIC LETTER LAM WITH DOT ABOVE \ U+06B7 ARABIC LETTER LAM WIT
06:07:27 <oerjan> `` unicode 'M WITH' | grep ' M WITH'
06:07:28 <HackEgo> U+0270 LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED M WITH LONG LEG \ U+0271 LATIN SMALL LETTER M WITH HOOK
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06:28:09 <Robdgreat> ah yes, now I remember why I ignored HackEgo
06:44:18 <Robdgreat> I only ignored the unicode messages
06:44:38 <Robdgreat> I'd miss 98% of the stuff in the channel once again if I ignored it totally again
06:45:09 <Robdgreat> I'm trying to pick a couple acoustic tunes for open mic tonight
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07:13:56 <hppavilion[1]> Huh, apparently part of the reason anime looks the way it is is that- when it was done with cel animation- it was produced in literally the stupidest way possible
07:14:13 <hppavilion[1]> The animation is done first, then the voice actors try to sync with the movement
07:14:26 <hppavilion[1]> Rather than taking the soundtrack and making it look like the characters are talking from there
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07:36:58 <hppavilion[1]> By which I mean we used math to render the entire movie in 4D (and projected down to 3D then to 2D for screen viewing)
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14:36:29 <wob_jonas> Oh man, they REALLY made this stuff watertight.
14:37:20 <wob_jonas> So if I buy stuff on PayPal, then I must pay PayPal's currency conversion fees, which are way higher than the currency conversion I can get from my bank. But there's no way to actually use the cheaper fees at the bank:
14:39:34 <wob_jonas> I can transfer money from my bank to PayPal, but if I transfer anything but HUF, then I have to pay the international bank transfer fee, even if I'm transferring from my domestic foreign currency account to Paypal's domestic account, and that fee has a high fixed minimum regardless the amount.
14:40:07 <alercah> for a while I maintained a USD credit card for that exact reason
14:40:20 <alercah> but nowadays I don't buy through paypal often enough for it to matter
14:41:08 <wob_jonas> Or I can pay from a bank card with PayPal, but then they charge the card in the native currency of the bank card, and I can't cheaply have extra bank cards in multiple currencies, even though I totally can have _accounts_ in those currencies, for the extra cards are either inpossible or have a high monthlyfee.
14:42:13 <wob_jonas> I could save on the costs only if I transferred a large amount of money to PayPal at a single time, but for that I'd have to predict the currency I'm going to buy stuff on PayPal, and that's quite unpredictable:
14:42:26 <Cale> Yeah, all my income goes through PayPal right now, and that conversion business is kind of annoying.
14:42:41 <wob_jonas> People sell things on PayPal in USD or CAD (from Asia or America) and in GBP or EUR (from Europe).
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14:43:47 <wob_jonas> I can try to change to another bank for this, for if another bank gives better conditions, I could transfer, though it could be a bit of a hassle.
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14:45:04 <wob_jonas> And I don't buy expensive stuff in PayPal, only cheap stuff.
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14:49:26 <Taneb> Cale, you aren't a face I see in here often
14:50:01 <Taneb> Which, to be fair, might be because I don't pay attention very much
14:50:41 <izabera> or because you don't see faces on irc
14:51:26 <Taneb> izabera, well, *you* don't
14:51:39 <izabera> what kind of irc are you using?
14:52:10 <izabera> long ago i used kvirc and it had some protocol for avatars
14:52:51 <Taneb> Alternatively, you could try having a really vivid imagination
14:54:25 <wob_jonas> Oh, and the extra problem is, I'm not even sure I can actually transfer currencies other than HUF to PayPal. They only give a single bank account number for transfer, and I'm not sure it's possible for a single account number to receive multiple currencies. I called their customer support,
14:54:57 <wob_jonas> and the lady said I probably can transfer other currencies, but she's not sure, and I should try. And to try, I have to pay the expensive bank transfer fee regardless the amount.
14:56:36 <wob_jonas> Incidentally, calling their customer support on phone is an international call, which also costs a shitton.
14:56:47 <Cale> Taneb: shachaf told me to join when I wrote https://hackage.haskell.org/package/category-printf and I just stuck around, but haven't had much occasion to say a whole lot
14:57:10 <Taneb> Cale, ooh, I hadn't seen thtat!
14:58:46 <wob_jonas> So if you guys have a plan for world domination that seems better than mine and has the side effect of getting rid of this riddiculous "country" and "international" stuff, drop me a line and I might consider supporting you.
14:59:10 <wob_jonas> Because I've had enough of this stupid politics, and maybe an evil dictator ruling with an iron fist could be better.
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15:01:48 <Taneb> Cale, my current "esoteric" project is a property testing library called OneCheck
15:02:22 <Taneb> It tests each property with arbitrary input! One arbitrary input, for speed concerns
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15:04:59 <Cale> You could take advantage of Data.Default
15:05:26 <Taneb> Cale, I'm going more arbitrary than that
15:05:40 <Taneb> https://github.com/Taneb/acme-onecheck/blob/master/src/Test/OneCheck.hs
15:05:53 <\oren\> Today's QC is more gratuitous speculation about how to have sex with robots. ...I guess that's fine, now the name of the comic finally makes sense.
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16:12:08 <Taneb> Most niche data structre I invented then forgot about: the two in one tree heap
16:12:26 <Taneb> A key-key-value thingy that's search tree-ordered on one key and heap-ordered on the other
16:13:40 <gamemanj> so, do you specify 2 keys to get a value,
16:13:44 <gamemanj> or you specify one of the two?
16:15:05 <myname> to get the worst onetime whenever possible?
16:15:42 <Taneb> myname, assuming the keys aren't correlated, the time complexities aren't too bad
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17:09:59 <Taneb> \oren\, I'm implementing it right now
17:12:03 <\oren\> hmm, you know how heapsort makes a heap in an array using power of two offsets... Maybe there should be something like qsort() and bsearch() that uses a heap search
17:17:14 <quintopia> Taneb: what is the advantage? so that you don't have to maintain 2 data structures with the same data?
17:17:34 <Taneb> quintopia, I'm not sure there is one
17:19:25 <quintopia> i know a data structure that doesnt exist but should
17:20:07 <quintopia> an insertion-ordered CompletionRecordDAWG
17:20:39 <Taneb> Directed Acyclic Wiggly Graph?
17:22:27 <quintopia> this would be a dictionary that maps string keys to ... whatever, but also can give you a list of keys that are prefixes of any string and tell you which key comes before and after a given key in insertion order
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18:43:58 <Taneb> I'm no expert, but I'm not sure that this test suite I wrote should start swapping
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20:50:30 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( Can one use non-euclidean geometry when drawing perspective to get OH MY GOD WHAT THE HELL drawings? )
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20:53:45 <gamemanj> hppavilion[1]: Imagine a hollow cube, with inset openings on each face. Now imagine that each opening went to a different place.
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20:53:57 <gamemanj> But if that would actually scare someone...
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20:54:30 <gamemanj> Non-euclidean geometry is overrated.
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21:57:24 <HackEgo> ring//Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
21:57:36 <HackEgo> locale//Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
21:57:37 <HackEgo> wumpus//Wumpus the Hunted is an early 70s action game in which the Wumpus is trapped in a dodecahedral labyrinth where it's chased by bats. It has to avoid traps and evade magical arrows that are guided by a nefarious AI.
21:57:37 <HackEgo> ghoti//"Ghoti" is a very fishy spelling.
21:57:37 <HackEgo> szoup//A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
21:58:08 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that true? You invented locales?
21:58:13 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you invent pointless topology?
21:58:59 <Taneb> shachaf, locales I invented, but only locally
21:59:57 <Taneb> And I never really saw the point in topology
21:59:58 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you guilty of inventing frames?
22:00:10 <Taneb> No, someone set me up on that one
22:00:38 <HackEgo> A frame is just a complete Heyting algebra. Frame homomorphisms don't preserve implication, if you know what I mean.
22:01:47 <Taneb> I don't like what you're implying there
22:10:38 <zzo38> HSTS is terrible but I can propose a better way: There is a menu that the user can set up arbitrary URI rewriting, and one option can set whether or not automatically adding rules is allowed (disabled by default). If automatically adding rules is allowed by the user setting, then the Strict-Transport-Security header can be used to automatically add/remove rules in this menu, except for rules which the user has locked.
22:12:18 <zzo38> Reporting of errors should not be done, and the user can always override the error; a setting may be provided to only enable the override after a specified number of milliseconds (something that Firefox does with download dialog boxes currently).
22:13:48 <zzo38> The setting for HPKP should be separate, and if enabled, then when there is error the user should be given the options: "Bypass", "New Context", "Change Settings", "Edit HPKP Data", "View Report", "Send Report".
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22:20:47 <Taneb> I'm not sure what the semantics of "insert" should be on a treap
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22:23:48 <\oren\> suppose Jool just rose in the east. you're moving 175 m/s east, so toward Jool. on the other side of kerbin, jool is setting in the west, so the other ship will be moving at 175 m/s away from jool. hence, relative to a ship on the other side of Kerbin, you are moving at 350 m/s.
22:24:22 <Taneb> zzo38, a treap is a purely functional data structure (I am writing this in Haskell) that is a binary tree that is heap ordered by one key and tree ordered by another
22:25:16 <Taneb> I am not sure if insert should clobber other entries with the same tree-ordering key
22:25:28 <Taneb> (by tree-ordered I mean ordered like a binary search tree)
22:25:56 <Zarutian> \oren\: I take it that the semimajor and inclanation of the two orbits are the same
22:28:05 <Zarutian> \oren\: at least for the purposes of mutual docking
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23:16:55 <_46bit> qualifications to be here: I spent a day of work trying to command an FTP server to join IRC and talk in a channel
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23:18:33 <izabera> you wrote an irc client in ftp?
23:19:08 <Taneb> izabera, didn't you write a compiler in Bash
23:19:23 <izabera> well yes but it compiles brainfuck to bash
23:19:30 <izabera> and does several optimizations
23:19:46 <izabera> not that hard, optimizations aside
23:20:40 <Taneb> I still need to implement the fancy brainfuck optimization thingy I thought up to see if it actually works
23:21:52 <fizzie> You can use FTP from client C to transfer files from server A to server B without passing through C (and without collecting $200).
23:21:56 <Taneb> I mentioned it a while back, I think, basically stuff like [->+++>++>-<<] can be turned into b += a * 3; c += a * 2; d -= a; a = 0
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23:22:09 <Taneb> And then extending that to nested loops
23:22:33 <izabera> yeah mine does that but nesting isn't too trivial
23:22:47 <Taneb> Which in some circumstances become quadratics, etc
23:23:37 <_46bit> I was sending commands to an FTP server that made it use an IRC server as a place to send the contents of a file to.
23:23:49 <_46bit> (That's skipping a lot of detail, but I hope it condenses things enough.)
23:24:05 <fizzie> Did you succeed, though?
23:24:23 <_46bit> Sadly one server I tried requires replying to "PING a_new_value" with "PONG a_new_value"
23:24:31 <fizzie> Yes, I've heard they do that.
23:24:46 <_46bit> I can't do that because I'd need to know a_new_value when constructing the payload to send to the FTP server.
23:25:04 <fizzie> Makes sense, since that's exactly why they do that.
23:25:07 <fizzie> I don't think Freenode's does, though.
23:25:47 <_46bit> Freenode did something different. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't join channels here.
23:26:12 <_46bit> I could set a nick, and see that freenode thought I was connected, but the FTP server couldn't actually join a channel.
23:26:22 <_46bit> Whereas running it myself using netcat did work.
23:26:36 <_46bit> It's something I hope Taneb might help me play with when he's back.
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23:29:21 <fizzie> Chrome is planning to deprecate HTTP/0.9 for somewhat similar cross-protocol confusion reasons.
23:38:42 <FireFly> why does your nick sound vaguely familiar, _46bit...
23:40:36 <HackEgo> _46bit: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:40:37 <_46bit> I must admit, I didn't get much further than very enjoying it
23:41:11 <shachaf> _46bit: Are you the person Taneb mentioned?
23:41:19 <_46bit> I was doing some very complex cybersecurity teaching things all summer, and getting to know that too was more than I had mindspace for
23:41:25 <_46bit> Taneb may have mentioned me.
23:41:37 <_46bit> however Taneb knows many more people than me.
23:41:50 <Taneb> shachaf, _46bit was indeed the person I mentioned
23:41:53 <shachaf> Taneb is well-known around here.
23:41:53 <Taneb> The one singular personb
23:41:56 <_46bit> this was actually a little unnerving:
23:41:57 <_46bit> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ci51ntp6cmfiei/Screenshot%202016-09-08%2023.40.50.png?dl=0
23:42:01 <shachaf> As a Glaswegian inventor, I think?
23:42:10 <_46bit> lots of red and rainbows!
23:42:20 <HackEgo> _46bit: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:42:43 <_46bit> uh oh, I already thought the word "botloop"
23:42:48 * _46bit backs away from the keyboard
23:43:05 <_46bit> if you see me poking around HackEgo, kindly kick me
23:43:51 <shachaf> There are many bots here, and many botloops already achieved.
23:43:53 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
23:44:05 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
23:44:29 <shachaf> Taneb: You invented Tanebventions? I didn't know that.
23:45:22 <Taneb> shachaf, where does it say that?
23:46:02 <_46bit> I am curious what Taneb mentioned about me. But that risks dropping Taneb in it, so to speak.
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23:47:22 <shachaf> I think he mentioned that you were using an FTP client to connect to an IRC server, for one.
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23:47:35 <FireFly> Taneb: do you know everyone
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23:47:47 <FireFly> I heard you also know kline at least
23:47:58 <Taneb> I have met kline on at least two occasions
23:48:10 <shachaf> Taneb: Do you know anyone you don't know?
23:48:23 <HackEgo> metar is a service that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
23:48:41 <shachaf> `slwd metar//s#that#Taneb invented &#
23:48:43 <HackEgo> wisdom/metar//metar is a service Taneb invented that allows nerds to talk about the weather.
23:49:02 <kline> twice with keir and once with GTMU
23:50:10 <shachaf> I don't think I met kline even once.
23:50:23 <Taneb> Well, that's your fault for being in California
23:50:53 <shachaf> Maybe FireFly ought to move to California.
23:50:59 <shachaf> That's a good excuse for not meeting kline.
23:51:13 <Taneb> shachaf, it's concievable you've met _46bit though!
23:51:18 <FireFly> I think I'm more likely to meet kline than move to California, in the foreseeable future
23:51:38 <shachaf> Taneb: How would that happen?
23:52:29 <_46bit> I spent some time YCstartupping in Palo Alto back in 2012-13.
23:52:39 <_46bit> I think that's what Taneb is referring to.
23:52:46 <shachaf> I lived in East Palo Alto at the time.
23:53:20 <shachaf> Is YCstartupping different from regular startupping?
23:53:32 <_46bit> ooh, out by the marshes and things?
23:53:47 <_46bit> you get lots of egostroking and free stuff, for one
23:53:56 <_46bit> although free stuff has become more widely available since
23:53:57 <shachaf> I don't think I ever heard about Dreamforge.
23:54:07 <shachaf> I lived right on the border of PA and EPA.
23:54:13 <_46bit> oh dear, I'm being researched.
23:54:40 <_46bit> I heard little about EPA other than that they have a lot of work to do near where I lived.
23:54:44 <Taneb> _46bit, within half an hour of me joining this channel they guessed the small town I lived in
23:55:07 <shachaf> How can I get lots of egostroking and free stuff, please?
23:55:44 <HackEgo> A wegian is an equivalence class of #esoteric regulars. There are two main wegians, the Nor (from Finland) and the Glas (from Hexham).
23:55:48 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
23:56:13 <Taneb> I had mentioned a) it was in Northumberland, and b) it was raining heavily
23:56:28 <HackEgo> Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
23:56:34 <_46bit> guess which settlement in the midwest I've visited?
23:56:40 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull Taneb
23:56:53 <_46bit> hmm. is Jackson Hole even midwest? it's kinda west.
23:57:07 <Taneb> _46bit, I went to the midwest once! It was before I went to California
23:57:36 <_46bit> you went to the midwest three?
23:57:43 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you go to Minnesota?
23:57:49 <_46bit> is that like the hateful eight but as children?
23:57:57 <Taneb> shachaf, I am not sure, on account of being three
23:58:00 <Taneb> It's very possible, though
23:58:18 <Taneb> shachaf, we did go to Montana, if that helps
23:58:58 <shachaf> _46bit: When will you be in California again?
23:59:07 <shachaf> You can deliver certain items to Taneb.
23:59:20 <_46bit> As soon as I graduat--oh no, Taneb is here, I can't tell y'all that
23:59:21 <Taneb> shachaf, looking at a map, it's very unlikely I went to Minnesota
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