00:00:01 <_46bit> I am considering options post-graduation. If H1Bs were easier to acquire I would most surely be coming over to Boston or California.
00:00:02 <Taneb> Colorado, South Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming I think
00:00:06 <shachaf> I'll be sure to convey that information to shachaf, looking at a map.
00:00:15 <shachaf> What about shachaf, looking at a computer?
00:00:24 <_46bit> I was going to get an O1 before I parted ways with the startup, but that's not such an option now.
00:00:25 <shachaf> Taneb: None of those seem very midwestern to me.
00:00:33 <shachaf> _46bit: Why not get an O-1 now?
00:00:47 <Taneb> shachaf, the midwest is a lot further east than I thought
00:01:14 <_46bit> What's west of the midwest?
00:01:21 <_46bit> like, midwest includes chicago right?
00:01:30 <_46bit> you have Mountain Time
00:01:35 <_46bit> is mountain west of the midwest?
00:02:22 <Taneb> Apparently I saw the four headed president, trapped in the rock
00:02:24 <shachaf> Most things are west of the midwest.
00:02:28 <Taneb> President Rushmore
00:02:49 <shachaf> _46bit: California is pretty good.
00:02:58 <shachaf> _46bit: You could get a J-1 probably?
00:03:04 <shachaf> I guess you already had one.
00:03:12 <_46bit> It's a fascinating place as a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit.
00:03:34 <shachaf> "public-school" means the opposite in the UK and in the US, right?
00:03:36 <Taneb> _46bit, is that public school in the British sense or the American sense
00:03:43 <_46bit> I might be able to J-1. I need to examine my options very carefully soon.
00:04:05 <_46bit> The US seems unlikely, and yet a few people seem at risk of launching a campaign to acquire me.
00:04:09 -!- DHeadshot has joined.
00:04:15 <_46bit> I already get photobooks of Cambridge, MA in the post.
00:04:21 <shachaf> _46bit: Maybe if you get your FTP IRC client working they'll give you an O-1 based on that accomplishment.
00:04:44 <_46bit> shachaf: if only the world works that way :D which, honestly, I think it does.
00:04:47 <Taneb> I need to look to see where I'd like to do postgrad
00:05:11 <shachaf> Taneb: move to california with _46bit hth
00:06:46 <shachaf> `learn _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
00:06:48 <HackEgo> Learned '_46bit': _46bit is a slightly-uptight public-schooled Brit. Taneb invented him.
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00:09:17 <wob_jonas> Northumberland? Is that like a Numberwang?
00:09:18 <_46bit> not as far as y'all're concerned
00:10:05 <FireFly> Taneb invented a lot of things that predated him
00:10:07 <shachaf> that needs to go on the wall
00:10:12 <wob_jonas> _46bit: yes, many irc servers other than freenode require a pong to start your connection. sometimes they even send a NOTICE to you about it so you can PONG manually even if your irc client is stupid.
00:10:14 <FireFly> don't underestimate the power of inventions
00:10:21 <Taneb> shachaf, a lot of things predate Taneb
00:10:29 <HackEgo> Go is a common irregular verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes catching monsters in the strategic territories of East Asia.
00:10:30 <Taneb> I think most people in here except for maybe Phantom_Hoover predate Taneb
00:10:55 <_46bit> This seems a most charming place.
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00:10:56 <Taneb> Actually I have no idea how predatey most people in here are
00:11:09 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
00:12:02 <oerjan> (the usual nilfisk stuff)
00:12:06 <wob_jonas> oh, and I forgot AUD among the currencies.
00:12:19 <shachaf> Perhaps _46bit is Taneb's natural predator.
00:12:37 <_46bit> wob_jonas: It's a pretty good idea. Freenode did not, but I'm convinced the system blocked my attempt some other way. I need to watch the traffic with wireshark or something to see what happened.
00:12:38 <Taneb> shachaf, _46bit has had many opportunities to eat me and as far as I am aware has not yet
00:12:57 <_46bit> Maybe every time I eat Taneb, a nested universe begins.
00:13:06 <HackEgo> A universe is a poem in one stanza.
00:13:29 <Taneb> I think there's maybe four people in here I've met in person?
00:13:41 <wob_jonas> _46bit: did you use a generic nickname that's not registered on freenode? and did you make sure your USER and NICK lines (and any other optional lines you sent) were formed correctly?
00:13:46 <Taneb> I was in the same city as fizzie for a little bit last December but I don't think I saw him
00:14:03 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm heading to bed
00:14:18 <_46bit> wob_jonas: I piped the exact same commands into netcat and it succeeded.
00:14:54 <_46bit> There's all sorts of reasons that isn't an identical test to abusing ProFTPD, of course.
00:15:07 <shachaf> I think I've met at least four people here in person, not including myself.
00:15:34 <wob_jonas> _46bit: maybe the ftp middle host you used was banned, or their open proxy scanner automatically detects open ftp servers that are so dumb as to connect to them
00:16:08 <_46bit> I was building a learnign exercise to be used in UK Computer Science courses. To demonstrate abusing services for scanning a private network, I reincarnated the FTP Bounce exploit into ProFTPD. http://www.ouah.org/ftpbounce.html
00:16:16 <_46bit> (If anyone's curious.)
00:16:35 <_46bit> wob_jonas: Nope, it was all local, behind NAT.
00:17:02 <wob_jonas> Or maybe the machine has the ftp server connected to an identd in such a way that the identd tells freenode not to believe anything the connection from ftp says.
00:17:03 <_46bit> I'm sure there's a reason but it seems I'll have to watch the network traffic to know what - too many possible variables.
00:17:42 <_46bit> 46bit arose from me as a teenager needing an online handle I liked
00:17:46 <_46bit> and swapping 64bit around
00:17:57 <_46bit> and finding the resulting nick used nowhere
00:18:22 <FireFly> maybe you ought to group it
00:18:26 <shachaf> That's because it starts with a digit.
00:18:40 <wob_jonas> FireFly: you can't change to nicks that start with a digit, you can only get them when the server sets one on you
00:18:54 <_46bit> it occasionally gets taken on super-populated communities, so I resort to 0x2Ebit in those cases
00:18:56 <wob_jonas> which they do only for a nick collision when servers connect after a netsplit
00:19:16 <_46bit> wob_jonas: it's a shame, but the IRC RFC does specify no opening digit
00:19:20 <FireFly> I'm not sure if it'd set an erroneous nickname even in that case
00:19:24 <_46bit> (someone in #cs-york checked for me)
00:19:36 <wob_jonas> _46bit: the IRC RFC specifies a lot of things that actual servers don't hold
00:19:54 <wob_jonas> there's been lots of changes and differences between networks
00:20:02 <_46bit> I believe I found a place where I didn't need the underscore, but I'm much less willing to experiment
00:20:22 <_46bit> ZNC and irssi have too many commands and things for me to want to fiddle
00:20:23 <wob_jonas> so much that when I want to find out something about irc, the best way is usually to ask on #freenode, which has people who know more about it
00:20:52 <wob_jonas> I mean, some things I can just try
00:21:46 <wob_jonas> but some of my questions are untestable, because they concern unlikely scenarios, like ordering between multiple servers or behavior at netsplits
00:21:48 <hppavilion[2]> Wait, why the hell is there a "Woman's Grandmaster" FIDE title?
00:22:18 <hppavilion[2]> I mean, in athletics, gender-segregation makes some degree of sense because men are naturally better-equipped for athletic tasks because evolution
00:22:32 <hppavilion[2]> But Chess is as far from athletic as you get, so why is there a woman's grandmaster title?
00:22:46 <wob_jonas> hpp: tradition. chess had gender differences because people simply refused to teach high level chess to women
00:22:56 <wob_jonas> these days there's much less difference
00:23:01 <_46bit> Could an AI be eligible for it?
00:23:08 <hppavilion[2]> And worse, normal GM isn't gender restricted; WGM is only for women, AND it has a lower barrier of entry
00:23:20 <hppavilion[2]> So it's basically "we'll make this easier for you because you're a girl"
00:23:43 <wob_jonas> _46bit: no, there's separate categories for chess by just computers and for chess by computer combined with humans. they're needed because humans are now much weaker in chess than computers.
00:25:38 <oerjan> istr Judith Polgar being one of the few women to be successful at the ordinary GM
00:26:04 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: Yeah, and she refused to take the WGM title too
00:26:17 <hppavilion[2]> (she had a policy of only playing in non-gender-segregated tournaments)
00:27:04 <oerjan> i learned that quite a while ago, from irregular webcomic!
00:27:36 <oerjan> (when colonel Haken tried to greet the eldest Jones properly)
00:28:33 <oerjan> (of course that turned into an Overly Long Gag)
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00:30:28 <wob_jonas> oerjan: wait, does copying Susan B. Anthony still work these days?
00:31:17 <_46bit> I consider this a most successful entry into #esoteric.
00:31:18 <_46bit> I hope I find more to talk about tomorrow.
00:31:22 <oerjan> i don't remember who that is
00:31:48 <wob_jonas> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_B._Anthony
00:31:49 <hppavilion[2]> "Hello, His Holy Eminence Brother Miss Doctor Reverend-Deacon Pastor-Priest Pope Cardinal Arch|+Bishop Sensei Saint Jones."
00:31:54 <quintopia> _46bit: you could find less, and idle harder
00:32:43 <oerjan> the list of wikipedia references that Judit Polgár is the strongest female player of all time is ridiculously long :P
00:32:46 <_46bit> quintopia: I tend to cull idle IRC channels. My irssi theme doesn't work so well with them.
00:33:09 <quintopia> _46bit: this is not an idle channel, with or without you
00:33:25 <quintopia> _46bit: nothing wrong with idling in an nonidle channel when you don't have anything to say
00:34:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: adieu: not found
00:34:30 <shachaf> my terminal had rendering issues
00:34:41 <wob_jonas> quintopia: hehe, now I'm reminded to that stupid channel with a bot that kicks everyone if they're idle for 24 hours (that's also the channel that used to use a byte encoding, but they changed to utf-8 later, and I think stopped that stupid bot)
00:34:48 <shachaf> which i guess made it look like i really like charles schwab corporation
00:36:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: actually it was "The Honourable Herr Schliemannian Chair Professor Doktor Doktor Jones, CBE, DCM, JP, FRS" hth
00:37:01 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1347.html
00:37:22 <hppavilion[2]> (Is that what happens when you have 2 different doktorates?)
00:39:34 <hppavilion[2]> OK, can we just call that one King James "King James III,V"?
00:40:59 <hppavilion[2]> oerjan: The one who was James I in England and James VI in Scotland
00:41:20 <hppavilion[2]> (Do we still have to 2-numbers royals named "James" after James 2-numbers?)
00:42:24 <wob_jonas> hpp: he's got two doctorates, per http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1323.html , but I think the usual real-life way to get "Doctor" twice in your name is to be a women, get a doctorate, marry a men who has a doctorate, and take his name.
00:42:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: you know that some people think the current queen should use I in scotland, too?
00:42:45 <wob_jonas> In that case the two "Doctor" aren't adjacent though
00:43:53 <hppavilion[2]> (Like I told my sister any man she marries has to do; he changes his name.)
00:44:02 <hppavilion[2]> wob_jonas: No, being married to a Doctor doesn't make you a Doctor
00:44:35 <hppavilion[2]> Unless you mean something like "Mr. & Ms. Dr. Smith", which I don't think is really correct
00:44:57 <oerjan> it was probably considered correct at one time.
00:45:28 <oerjan> but nowadays it sounds rather antifeminist
00:46:17 <hppavilion[2]> (If you would usually say "Mr. & Ms. Smith", but one (or both) has a doctorate, are you supposed to do "Dr. & Ms. Smith"/"Mr. & Dr. Smith"/"Dr. and Dr. Smith" (though in the last case, I think "Drs. Smith" would be considered correct))
00:46:59 <oerjan> i think giving up and screaming is the correct approach there
00:47:42 <quintopia> hppavilion[2]: I think Dr. and Dr. would be most appropriate
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00:49:12 <hppavilion[2]> (Similarly, gay-married couples could be "Mss. Smith-Jones" or "Mrs. Smi"- oh, wait, the "Mrs." is a problem)
00:51:00 <quintopia> hppavilion[2]: i don't think Drs. is standard except in the cases that all their last names are different. E.g. in a medical practice of "Drs. Smith, Klaxon, Blzzxxt, and Jones"
00:51:53 <wob_jonas> hpp: I'm quite sure some people here do have a Dr. in their name just because their husband has such a title. that doesn't make them a Doctor, but they have it in their name before the part of the name they took from their husband.
00:52:33 <hppavilion[2]> (Even though we aren't speaking German so prefixes usually don't stack, some prefixes in English do stack (e.g. "Rv. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."), and Dr*. is put on the same level as Dr. and Rv. for that)
00:52:45 <quintopia> hppavilion[2]: I think Drs. Smith and Smith would be fine
00:53:07 <hppavilion[2]> quintopia: That works too, but "A & A" is just "A"
00:53:23 <quintopia> hppavilion[2]: good thing names aren't booleans
00:53:27 <wob_jonas> hpp: Heinlein's novel ''The Rolling Stones'' has Mr. Stone (the husband) and Dr. Stone (the mother).
00:53:57 <hppavilion[2]> And this isn't even getting into metadoctors (Mdr.)
00:54:18 <wob_jonas> That books has at least two completely names for six out of the seven main characters, used depending on who calls them that, and it's not explained at the start which names name the same people, so it was horibbly confusing to me
00:55:05 <hppavilion[2]> (For those logreading: Dr*. is read "Co-doctor" and is a title automatically given to the spouse of a doctor, and is on the same priority level as Dr., so a doctor married to another doctor would be "Dr. Dr.* Smith")
00:55:44 <wob_jonas> The most confusing part is that the twin brothers, who are approximately 16 years old, are called Castor and Pollux, but they call each other the nicknames Grandpa and Junior.
00:56:20 <wob_jonas> probably no, maybe others pick it up more easily
00:56:57 <wob_jonas> but seriously, calling a 16 year old boy "Grandpa" and another one "Junior" (when he has a 4 year old brother) in a book without explanation is confusing
00:57:09 <hppavilion[2]> (Maybe there should be an opposite of Dr. with an inherently bad connotation that's given to the child of a doctor. The only way to lose it is to get a doctorate yourself.)
00:57:12 <wob_jonas> even if it does make sense for the twins to call them that
00:57:54 <wob_jonas> hpp: I dunno, I never know with Heeinlein
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01:08:08 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: being the child of a doctor may be hard, but you just have to be patient
01:09:04 * hppavilion[2] takes oerjan's swatter and swats em with it ----###
01:09:38 <oerjan> that's my swatter, it's the wrong size hth
01:09:54 <oerjan> stupid keyboard goblins
01:13:39 <wob_jonas> oerjan: "you know that some people think the current queen should use I in scotland, too?" => it seems crazy that the queen is bound by so many traditions that people would even debate this, rather than thinking that the queen has the right to get herself called whatever she wants.
01:14:13 <oerjan> <\oren\> Today's QC is more gratuitous speculation about how to have sex with robots. ...I guess that's fine, now the name of the comic finally makes sense. <-- this comment was confusing coming right after a discussion of QuickCheck
01:15:53 <hppavilion[2]> Hm, "Gentleman" specifically refers to a man of "good, courteous conduct" (and lady to the female counterpart)
01:15:57 <oerjan> wob_jonas: this is britain. the monarchy is made of pure unadulterated traditions hth
01:16:22 <hppavilion[2]> So would you use "Ladies and Gentlemen" when referring to a crowd where some members are not of good, courteous conduct?
01:16:37 <oerjan> ladies, gentlemen, and scoundrels
01:16:53 <oerjan> i'm sure some comedians must have done that
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01:17:33 <oerjan> a webcomic with somewhat questionable content
01:18:45 <wob_jonas> like how many government institutes before 1914 were called "K & K" because the king is the emperor of Austria and the king of Hungary
01:19:38 <wob_jonas> even after 1914 for a while I think
01:20:38 <wob_jonas> because of the Steward of Gondor stuff
01:21:44 <oerjan> iirc finland still has laws that refer to kejsaren, aka the tsar or russia
01:22:56 <wob_jonas> oerjan: here documents referred to the People's Republic for a while until they could rename everything
01:23:08 <hppavilion[2]> (OK, I'm getting a little confused. Is the correct spelling "bear with me" or "bare with me" when not saying "let's go be bears"?)
01:23:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: the former i think.
01:23:44 <oerjan> unless you're stripping.
01:26:28 <oerjan> hm possibly finland cleaned that up eventually too. i'm having trouble finding evidence.
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01:26:57 <wob_jonas> Like, the coat of arms used to be present in a lot of places here, on official documents and government buildings and all the primary schools; but when the Republic was established, there were lots of more urgent stuff to do than to replace the signs everywhere,
01:27:05 <oerjan> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/1269/is-it-bear-or-bare-with-me
01:27:17 <wob_jonas> so for a while you could see the People's Republic coat of arms on lots of buildings still.
01:28:40 <wob_jonas> That's been done long ago though, you can't find the old coat of arms or mentions of "People's Republic" anywhere. Instead they're replacing "Állami" to "Nemzeti" in the names of lots of institutions now.
01:43:38 <oerjan> `? tanebventions: math
01:43:39 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the axiom of choice, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, and histograms.
01:44:07 <HackEgo> axiom of choice? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:44:19 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: math//s/y,/y, locales,/
01:44:20 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the axiom of choice, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
01:44:29 <HackEgo> Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8.
01:44:44 <HackEgo> cat: : No such file or directory \ //
01:45:18 <oerjan> `cwlprits axiom of choice
01:45:35 <oerjan> `slwd tanebventions: math//s/the axiom of choice, //
01:45:38 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: math//Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
01:45:57 <oerjan> see stated policy in the logs.
01:50:06 <oerjan> <zzo38> HSTS is terrible but I can propose a better way: There is a menu that the user can set up [...] <-- i'll state (reiterate?) what i consider obvious: the entire point of HSTS is to provide the right default for users who haven't thought carefully about their security. thus requiring a menu to enable it completely misses the purpose.
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01:50:46 <oerjan> *swap point and purpose above
01:50:58 <hppavilion[2]> ...it's kind of funny that UC wanted to make emoji more representative of race (because someone was doing it wrong by using actual skin colors)
01:51:31 <hppavilion[2]> Except they merged type 1 and type 2 (the two that would be classified as "white") into a single one
01:52:24 <hppavilion[2]> By "funny" I mean "a tiny bit racist, but of the variety that a non-white person could complain about but a white person can't, even to people they can complain about more overt racism to"
01:52:41 <oerjan> of course a menu to adjust/disable it might be useful for power users.
01:54:36 <oerjan> . o O ( hppavilion[2] doesn't get to discuss PC issues more than twice a week... )
01:54:57 <oerjan> thus it's in . o O ( ) hth
01:55:19 <oerjan> it's happening in a hypothetical world where i'm less patient hth
01:55:32 <hppavilion[2]> hey should add a Hitler Emoji. With the note that you're required to support ALL fitzpatricks or not use it at all
01:55:51 <hppavilion[2]> Just to insult Hitler even though he's already dead
01:59:07 <oerjan> i'm not sure insulting hitler actually helps with anything other than feeling smug.
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02:07:48 <wob_jonas> Update: it is probably not only expensive, but impossible for me to do a bank transfer in foreign currency to PayPal.
02:13:55 <\oren\> wob_jonas: really? I haven't had any trouble paying things in rubles or USD on paypal
02:17:31 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I can shop in other currencies by PayPal, but PayPal charges my card in HUF, so I pay PayPal's very expensive currency change rates rather than my bank's much cheaper rates
02:18:04 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it seems like the bank can offer such cheap currency conversion rates because it's practically impossible to actually do anything with those rates without additional high charges
02:18:53 <wob_jonas> I can most certainly pay with a bank card on a POS terminal in a foreign country to get the cheap rates.
02:19:28 <wob_jonas> But I can't use the cheap rates to shop online with PayPal, for which I'd like to pay in GBP or other currencies.
02:20:28 <hppavilion[2]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spot_the_cow.gif
02:22:23 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, Windows 98, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, metar, weetoflakes, Tanebventions, persistence, the BBC, progress, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: math. He never invents anything involving sex.
02:25:17 <oerjan> . o O ( wait, do all cows turn spherical when in a vacuum? )
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02:28:57 * hppavilion[2] . o O ( The Pope, at some point (it was Urban VIII apparently), declared the rules for how religious titles correspond to monarchical titles (Pope = King, Cardinal = Prince, and presumably Archbishop|Bishop = Archduke|Duke. Not sure where it goes from there.)
02:31:03 <wob_jonas> Um, what observable effect does that correspondence have?
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02:36:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: table sittings hth
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02:41:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> How can I get lots of egostroking and free stuff, please? <-- you live in berkeley, isn't that ego stroking enough?
02:42:58 <oerjan> i guess a berkeleyan would be the last to understand.
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03:41:21 <zzo38> oerjan: It can be enabled by default if you want to I suppose, but I think it shouldn't be. (Anyways I would want to use the web browser program which is for the experts only, because the other ones just aren't so good)
04:00:26 <oerjan> ais523: it looks like the spammers have taken a break
04:01:09 <ais523> I made filter 9 a little less restrictive recently
04:01:21 <ais523> because legitimate users were failing at reading comprehension
04:01:43 <oerjan> but some of them are still failing at bothering to complete it
04:02:32 <ais523> we could possibly get fizzie to disable anonymous editing in the site config? because it's effectively disabled anyway
04:02:33 <oerjan> well, except the users seem to have taken a break too.
04:02:42 <ais523> it's a quiet time for the Internet in general
04:02:53 <ais523> I'm not quite sure why, but most of the other online forums I've been in have also seen a lull in activity
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04:03:05 <ais523> could be that people are on holiday
04:03:37 <oerjan> ais523: yeah if we're keeping anonymous editing disabled, it's better to stop people before they've composed an edit
04:04:07 <ais523> we could try disabling filter 9 for a bit and turning it back on the next time there's a spam attack?
04:04:14 <oerjan> ais523: i assume it's school/colleges picking up?
04:04:16 <ais523> although I'm not checking Esolang regularly any more
04:04:29 <ais523> oerjan: it's a little too early for that
04:04:38 <ais523> and that normally causes an increase rather than reduction in activity
04:04:48 <ais523> the "september surge" is a good time for recruiting people to online communities
04:04:53 <oerjan> ais523: the problem with that is that we still haven't got an emergency halt button.
04:05:32 <oerjan> fizzie was looking a bit into better filtering, but i think he only got as far as upgrading the wiki
04:05:42 <ais523> I don't think an emergency stop button would be useful
04:05:54 <ais523> the odds that someone who knows where it is is online at the same time as the spammers are fairly low
04:06:36 <oerjan> ais523: we'd have to advertize it a bit
04:07:16 <oerjan> "In a rare show of solidarity, both British English and American English spell advertise with an s in all forms."
04:07:38 <ais523> yes, that's one of the only consistently -ise words
04:07:48 <ais523> I wonder if it's because it has a different etymology from the others
04:08:07 <ais523> after all, "advertise" doesn't really mean "make into an advert", but "make an advert about"
04:08:24 <ais523> (and "advert" is IIRC an abbreviation for "advertisement" rather than the /stem/ of "advertisement")
04:08:44 <oerjan> <ais523> could be that people are on holiday <-- i think some countries have holidays at about this time, because the middle of summer is too hot for travelling or something.
04:10:45 <oerjan> alternatively, that also applies to destinations.
04:11:29 <ais523> heh, I tried to look up the etymology of "advert" on Wiktionary and my ad blocker blocked it
04:12:22 <ais523> easy enough to add an exception, I just found it amusing (and confusing before I figured out what was going on)
04:13:26 <ais523> hmm, it seems that "advertise" and "advertisement", although they share a root historically, diverged more recently than they were imported into English
04:13:49 <ais523> and that the most likely theory about the spelling of "advertise" is that it was influenced by that of "advertisement"
04:14:04 <ais523> *diverged before they were imported into English
04:15:34 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gN2e4K9Jvug
04:16:20 * oerjan needs to stop clicking on \oren\'s links
04:16:31 <oerjan> we have exceedingly diverging music tastes
04:20:24 <ais523> you should learn to be incredibly adverse to following links on IRC, like I am
04:20:28 <ais523> (for a while I had my client block them altogether)
04:21:06 <oerjan> my client doesn't follow links, i have to cut and paste them.
04:22:34 <oerjan> since it's inside putty
04:23:07 <oerjan> i don't follow links from any random newbie
04:23:52 <oerjan> and i do look at the domain. i'd probably not follow url shorteners unless i'm told what it is.
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04:34:14 <zzo38> I don't follow YouTube links or URL shortener links, in general
04:34:47 <ais523> what about links to YouTube's URL shortener (youtu.be)?
04:35:11 <zzo38> I don't watch YouTube
04:35:14 <izabera> zzo38: https://www.kamogo.com/17
04:37:34 <zzo38> I think that doesn't even work properly
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04:47:07 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pGuu8QMk6E
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04:58:48 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td-ZUm9Pixc
05:00:37 <\oren\> idea: a url shortener that runs some sort of distributed computing thing before redirecting
05:01:19 <izabera> yes because that's what anyone wants with a url shortner
05:01:29 <izabera> 3s latency before being redirected
05:01:34 <\oren\> well, you obviously would at first only redirect
05:04:02 <\oren\> izabera: well, maybe you would track usage patterns before DDOS day, then schedule it for the day of the week with highest usage
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05:04:49 <\oren\> many url shorteners have some letency while they show advertizements
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05:31:39 <zzo38> I have suggested before, to put texts of Magic: the Gathering cards into computer as RDF data (for example "Counter target spell" may become [:counter [:target :spell]]); this might then compile into something else to implement game in computer, or may be interpreted to implement game in computer. However, another advantage of this which was not the original point of it, is that you might make SPARQL queries to search for cards by effect instead o
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08:30:59 <zzo38> Can a LL parser be extended so that right sides of productions can be DFAs? How does this affect what it is capable of recognizing?
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09:10:18 * \46bit did not know one could backslash instead of underscore
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09:36:15 <HackEgo> TANEB: WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: <HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/>. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON EFNET OR DALNET.)
09:36:38 <Taneb> Can you not be so loud I've only just woken up
09:37:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: RELCOME: not found
09:38:07 <\46bit> that's probably a good thing
09:38:20 <shachaf> \46bit: please be respectful of Taneb's wishes twh
09:38:51 <HackEgo> Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms.
09:39:01 <HackEgo> Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
09:39:20 <HackEgo> The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
09:39:29 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I didn't realize filter 9 effectively disables anonymous editing; turning it off "properly" SGTM.
09:39:33 <HackEgo> Lambek's Lemma, invented by Joachim "Taneb" Lambek, states that initial algebras have inverses.
09:39:34 <fizzie> @tell ais523 I didn't realize filter 9 effectively disables anonymous editing; turning it off "properly" SGTM.
09:39:57 <shachaf> fizzie: Do non-Google people use "SGTM"?
09:40:08 <fizzie> shachaf: Non-Google Chrome developers do.
09:40:13 <shachaf> I thought so, but then someone in another channel said it was a Google thing.
09:40:26 <shachaf> Anyway for years my sister thought it meant "silently giggling to myself".
09:40:45 <shachaf> She thought I was laughing at her whenever anything good happened.
09:42:32 <shachaf> Chrome people don't count.
09:43:09 <HackEgo> klein bottles? ¯\(°_o)/¯
09:43:14 <HackEgo> klein bottle? ¯\(°_o)/¯
09:43:21 <fizzie> According to the Internet, it's general "Internet slang", but I have to say I don't recall hearing it much (if at all) pre-Google.
09:43:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanebventions: math:Mathematical tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Klein bottles, the reals, Lambek's lemma, pointless topology, locales, and histograms. \ wisdom/klein bottle:A Klein bottle is like a torus, but more insidious. Taneb tried to invent it, but got trapped inside.
09:44:07 <Taneb> If anyone can get trapped inside a klein bottle it's me
09:44:08 <shachaf> @ask oerjan was that pun truly an accident? twh
09:45:25 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
09:51:50 <fizzie> shachaf: In my logs there are 31 instances of 'sgtm', all but two of which are from #esoteric; most are from >= 2105, but there's 6 from 2013 (4x shachaf, 2x kmc); the two non-#esoteric instances are from ##c and #nethack.
09:51:58 <fizzie> I'm not sure you can deduce anything from that.
09:52:44 <fizzie> (Except that I need a full-text index for my logs, the query was SO SLOW.)
09:54:30 <shachaf> or an extra data center hth
09:56:33 <fizzie> I should switch to logging protos, then I'd be more motivated to build tools for browsing them.
09:57:03 <fizzie> As it is, I tend to just grep over the raw files instead of even querying the db.
09:57:20 <fizzie> I'm not sure why that's a problem, but it feels like a problem.
09:57:51 <shachaf> fizzie: What's a good tool to run various queries on a proto-based log format?
10:00:18 <fizzie> I don't think there is one. Uh, upload it into Storage and use BigQuery? (I think that's just Dremel.)
10:02:06 <shachaf> I didn't think there was one either, but I was hoping to be wrong.
10:03:09 <fizzie> There should probably be something jq-like for protos.
10:07:12 <fizzie> The whole "not self-describing" thing makes that a little less appealing.
10:11:30 <fizzie> I have a silly script that runs daily to fetch account balances for my pay-as-you-go phone account (they're very bad at providing any records), it writes the results into sqlite but for some unfathomable reason (temporary insanity?) also logs in protos.
10:16:35 <Taneb> I'd still like to advocate brainfuck interpreters where the cells are in Z/pZ for some prime p
10:17:22 <Taneb> (I like p = 127 or 257 for this)
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10:19:59 <\46bit> I can't quite figure out what that would look like, Taneb.
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10:21:02 <Taneb> \46bit, basically, it'd mean that balanced loops that don't contain , on the conditional cell either always halt or never halt
10:21:20 <Taneb> And you can decide this at compile time
10:21:59 <Taneb> (balanced with regards to < and >, that is each iteration tests the same cell)
10:22:51 <Taneb> Because Z/nZ is a field! :D
10:23:48 <Taneb> And there's a surjective homomorphism from the algebraic-structure-describing-the-increment-operation from the naturals to it
10:24:11 <Taneb> Which is useful for brainfuck
10:24:21 <Taneb> (that might in fact be a monoid homomorphism but I am not sure)
10:24:43 <fizzie> Taneb: So does [[-]>,[-<+>]<] always halt or not? It doesn't contain a , on the conditional cell, and is balanced.
10:25:48 <Taneb> That does not always halt or not
10:25:54 <Taneb> I may have rethink slightly
10:26:31 <Taneb> I'm going to add the condition "Does not contain a nested loop affecting the conditional cell"
10:37:45 <int-e> yay I'm listening to a talk about Malbolge...
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10:50:13 <int-e> "The difficult task of writing a general program in Malbolge was completed for real in 2005 by Hisashi Iizawa, Toshiki Sakabe, Masahiko Sakai, Keiichirou Kusakari, and Naoki Nishida." ... I had not realized that I know two of these people.
10:50:45 <int-e> (Masahiko Sakai is the speaker)
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14:55:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge Unshackled]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49698&oldid=47353 * Malbranche * (+129) /* External resources */ Link to Brainfuck interpreter proving Turing-completeness
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14:59:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Malbranche]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=49699&oldid=47305 * Malbranche * (+162) Work on Malbolge Unshackled
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15:25:57 <gamemanj> So... I was going through self-hosting file storage solutions, and the 2 good ones required PHP, one of which had an unexplained libselinux dependency. And they all require that you have a device with enough storage capacity for all the files.
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16:04:26 <gamemanj> (By "device with enough storage capacity for all the files", I was referring to the server. Just realized that might be ambiguous. Nowadays, servers tend to have less space than the clients...)
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16:11:55 <myname> what would you consider the most important feature to implement in a df like after digging?
16:13:03 <gamemanj> (and/or like cats. pick any 1.)
16:13:20 <myname> i tend to say workshops
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16:37:16 <\oren\> myname: objects that can be moved using stockpiles
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16:39:24 <myname> yeah, items in general. i have to look for graphics
16:40:28 <\oren\> you're not using characters?
16:40:31 <myname> first stuff i am going to make is probably stone, wood and barrels
16:40:54 <myname> i may, if i don't find somebody to make graphics in the long run
16:41:22 <\oren\> ▬ <- a brown one of these. wood. done.
16:42:34 <\oren\> • <- gray. stone. done.
16:42:38 <myname> i need tilesets nontheless :)
16:42:55 <\oren\> You could of course use emojis!
16:43:28 <myname> in practice, i just wildly modify an existing game
16:43:44 <\oren\> or the non-emoji character variants of emojis, if you still want each object to be one character cell
16:44:58 <myname> i still have a small problems with ramps to fix
16:45:02 <\oren\> ☂ <- This is a pine wood and horse leather umbrella. It is of the utmost quality.
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16:46:11 <\oren\> It is hung with rings of rose gold and amber, and inlaid with a picture in rat bones of Ugrak the Orc. Ugrak is weeping.
16:46:57 <myname> that is way more advanced than what i am going to do for now
16:47:12 <myname> i am not planing to do different stones for now, at all
16:47:26 <\oren\> The picture relates to the imprisonment in Woodsgelding of Ugrak the Orc in 1348
16:48:12 <myname> and i need to write a name generator some time
16:52:17 <\oren\> Trump appeared on RT to praise Putin
16:53:00 <\oren\> If he wins, the cold war is over, with victory to Russia
17:37:01 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZREQWva082s
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17:38:58 <wob_jonas> Oh man, I'm very proud of myself now, even if what I did was by accident.
17:39:12 <izabera> \oren\: i wouldn't understand a word without subs
17:40:45 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> the "september surge" is a good time for recruiting people to online communities" -- what?
17:40:53 <\oren\> izabera: Yeah Stack is not good at english...
17:41:06 <wob_jonas> is that like the rush to the shops to buy useless stuff to schoolchildren?
17:41:31 <\oren\> I guess some kids might get new laptops at that time
17:41:59 <wob_jonas> and tablets and smartphones and whatever they use these days
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17:42:52 <fizzie> I thought that was a reference to the phenomenon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September is about.
17:44:05 * wob_jonas leans back in his comfy chair staring at this channel on a huge monitor with smug superiority radiating the belief that the large noisy box next to him is a better way to enjoy this text chat than those fancy tiny devices
17:45:11 <fizzie> Incidentally, I think I was told a lot of people have now used the interwebs for the first time over a smartphone.
17:45:28 <fizzie> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/06/smartphones-most-popular-way-to-browse-internet-ofcom
17:46:05 <\oren\> fizzie: my little cousin didn't know that you could get youtube on a laptop
17:46:08 <wob_jonas> fizzie: wait, is that even possible?
17:46:28 <\oren\> until I showed him a few weeks ago
17:46:46 <\oren\> wob_jonas: yes, if the "people" in question are 6 years old
17:48:07 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Why wouldn't it be possible?
17:48:52 <gamemanj> "To improve the overall user experience, Youtube users are required to have WebGL 2, which means you have to support OpenGL ES 3. THIS MEANS YOU, IRONLAKE USERS."
17:49:24 <gamemanj> *cue mass shift to youtube-dl*
17:49:28 <izabera> \oren\: your little cousin is stupid
17:49:32 <\oren\> To him, I'm some ancient relic who went to a party in the year 2000.
17:50:00 <\oren\> the year 2000 is 10 years before he was born
17:50:26 <\oren\> like, the equivalent of someone talking to me about 1983
17:51:01 <\oren\> or talking to my dad about like 1946
17:51:13 <fizzie> "Mobile-only internet usage is also becoming more common, driven predominantly by Millennials, of which 21 percent are no longer using desktop computers to go online."
17:51:18 <gamemanj> "Back in the day, those awesome graphics cards were branded ATI! You hear me? A! T! I!"
17:51:44 <gamemanj> (The merger happened in 2010, so your little cousin would not know of this.)
17:51:46 <wob_jonas> fizzie: what is this "protos" you mention?
17:52:02 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Protobufs. You know, protocol buffers.
17:52:05 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: no way. even back then NVDIA cards were more awesome, just more expensive too.
17:52:45 <fizzie> Matrox is where it's at.
17:53:36 <\oren\> Back in the day, the USA wasn't at war in the middle east
17:53:56 <fizzie> I had at least a Matrox Mystique 220, a G200 and a G450.
17:54:15 <\oren\> the president was named "Bill Clinton"
17:54:17 <fizzie> mplayer had a custom 'mga' output driver for hardware-accelerated video on them. V. fancy.
17:54:20 <gamemanj> Meh. Think about it this way. AMD's easier on the drivers under some conditions, and if you're worried it's not powerful enough... seriously, please, for the love of all that you know, avoid anything marked "i3 M370".
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17:54:36 <gamemanj> That should recalibrate your definition of power.
17:55:22 <wob_jonas> Yeah, and we had mouse with two buttons, and 14 inch CRT monitors with 100 hertz refresh rate and way more vivid colors than what you have now on these TFTs, and a Gmail with no "delete" button.
17:55:45 <\oren\> And the most awesome internet games were written in Shockwave Flash
17:56:00 <\oren\> which your ipad can't even run
17:56:39 <izabera> neither can my laptop with arch
17:56:44 <wob_jonas> wasn't there an xkcd about the delete button in gmail?
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17:57:38 <\oren\> Oh, and the prime minister was Jean Chretien
17:57:58 <gamemanj> "Jean Chretien"? Never heard of them.
17:58:10 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Chr%C3%A9tien
17:58:27 <\oren\> He's famous for punching a heckler in the face
17:58:42 <gamemanj> So, basically, one of the few rare politicians that ever did anything.
17:58:45 <wob_jonas> \oren\: what? wasn't Chretien prime minister only a few years ago?
17:59:11 <\oren\> wob_jonas: no. then there was paul martin, and then stephen goddamnhim harper
17:59:36 <gamemanj> I'm guessing harper, whoever they are, was not very good at government?
17:59:51 <gamemanj> Either that or he literally had "Goddamnhim" as a middle name.
18:00:03 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: I understand some people say he ruined canada or something
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18:00:12 <wob_jonas> I don't really follow politics on the other side of the pond
18:00:52 <gamemanj> I don't follow politics, in general, that much.
18:00:59 <\oren\> gamemanj: basically he allowed Canada's economy to become way too tied to oil
18:01:26 <\oren\> gamemanj: nah, just became worthless with the advent of shale
18:01:42 <\oren\> it's still there, but uneconomical to extract
18:02:29 <wob_jonas> Oh man. So something is broken about rendering MathML in this browser, because the same problem (too high parenthesis) appears on multiple wobsites.
18:03:11 <\oren\> he also prorogued parliament to prevent certain bills from getting passed
18:03:31 <\oren\> and to prevent a vote of no confidence
18:04:19 <\oren\> wob_jonas: he didn't let parliament hold any sessions for months
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18:06:03 <\oren\> then in 2011 there actually was avote of no confidence
18:06:41 <\oren\> harper won again, but he lost the regular election this year
18:08:31 <\oren\> he's no longer in politics
18:12:29 <\oren\> I find MathML is often screwed up
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18:33:27 <myname> https://www.dropbox.com/s/zb8fbs7685xpkiu/Screenshot_20160909-191854.png?dl=0 i do think i made a mistake somewhere
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18:49:16 <gamemanj> myname: mistake? I see no mistake.
18:49:59 <myname> there is one dwarf on that layer (as indicated in the top right)
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19:27:06 <\oren\> According to an online quiz, I'm more likely to be a native swedish speaker than English
19:27:24 <\oren\> http://gameswithwords.org/WhichEnglish/
19:28:04 <\oren\> yes, given I don't know any swedish and I've never been to sweden.
19:28:52 <shachaf> I would do the quiz, but it requires age and gender.
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19:29:11 <\oren\> "Ore guesses for your native language: 1: Swedish, 2: Dutch 3: English"
19:29:48 <gamemanj> time to cheat the quiz age/gender thingy, just for the fun of it
19:30:47 <\oren\> Also their dialect chioces were "1: Ebonics 2: Canadian 3: General american"
19:32:57 <gamemanj> Oh, the cheats... so apparently they decided that normal <select> tags weren't enough
19:33:02 <gamemanj> they created special <select> tags
19:33:31 <gamemanj> which are stopping me from saying that I am an immortal verminicious knid.
19:41:01 <gamemanj> Aha. Use the DOM inspector to add in your preferred option, then run $("#gender").select2(); to create the new choicebox.
19:46:17 <myname> interesting, it guessed german for me
19:46:45 <myname> also, my dialect seems to be aave
19:52:32 <gamemanj> So, apparently, I'm from New Zealand. This, of course, is completely false.
19:54:13 <myname> german, english, dutch are the 3 guesses for me
19:54:32 <gamemanj> and now... "In the Country Of United Kingdom"...
19:55:00 <gamemanj> seriously, they say "country" and define the United Kingdom as a country, they are asking for me to deliberately break the system now.
19:55:22 <shachaf> I said it in Hebrew -- I said it in Dutch -- / I said it in German and Greek. / But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) / That English is what you speak.
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19:58:04 <gamemanj> the best part is, that somehow, the console isn't indicating any server errors due to my... interesting... input.
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19:58:23 <gamemanj> Or at least none that the server sent back, anyway...
20:03:07 <wob_jonas> It says "Our top three guesses for your English dialect: 1. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics 2. New Zealandish 3. South African. Our top three guesses for your native (first) language: 1. English 2. Dutch 3. Swedish"
20:04:39 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:04:54 <nortti> "Our top three guesses for your English dialect: 1. US Black Vernacular / Ebonics 2. New Zealandish 3. Singaporean" "Our top three guesses for your native (first) language: 1. Swedish 2. English 3. Dutch"
20:07:43 <copumpkin> shachaf: the book is in my possession! not sure if I'll have time to read this weekend but will try
20:07:48 -!- hppavilion[2] has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
20:07:59 <shachaf> copumpkin: After you read this book I can send you more books.
20:08:38 <shachaf> I recommend a book to kmc that he really liked.
20:09:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: won't that cause a downtime between the two books when the second book is still in postage/
20:09:12 <shachaf> Maybe you should read that one.
20:09:24 <shachaf> wob_jonas: copumpkin deserves a break.
20:10:03 <shachaf> copumpkin: Remind me, were you an expert in Russian history?
20:10:10 <shachaf> copumpkin: _The Coast of Utopia_ was so good
20:10:16 <shachaf> That's a play, not a book.
20:11:06 <shachaf> I guess that's irrelevant.
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20:28:55 <fizzie> Every time you read a book, shachaf sends you two more books.
20:30:31 <wob_jonas> fizzie: is there a flip side? like, every time you don't read a book he's sent within reasonable time, he takes away another random one of your books?
20:33:37 <fizzie> I don't know, I don't subscribe to the service.
20:33:54 <fizzie> But that sounds reasonable.
20:34:15 <wob_jonas> anyway, those aren't good rules, because then you can get stuck with zero books in the queue
20:35:00 <wob_jonas> a better rule might be something like this: whenever you have two or fewer books in your read queue plus in transmit from shachaf, shachaf sends you two more books.
20:35:04 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you want to subscribe?
20:35:21 <wob_jonas> shachaf: can I request particular books?
20:35:29 <shachaf> fizzie: Now that you're British do you drink a lot of tea?
20:36:06 <fizzie> shachaf: No, yes (well, sort-of).
20:36:40 <shachaf> I've been trying to sign up for someone's tea recommendation of the month club.
20:36:57 <fizzie> I drink more tea now because the new office's MKs have this tap from which hot water comes out of, without having to pour it into a water cooker and waiting for few minutes.
20:37:14 <wob_jonas> shachaf: oh, I'm bad at that. I mostly just drink the sort of empty tea I call "colored water"
20:37:21 <gamemanj> Ah, yes, the "do not ever let it near a child, they are guaranteed to hurt their hands" taps
20:37:32 <fizzie> gamemanj: It's got a child-"proof" thing.
20:37:34 <wob_jonas> certainly not British stuff that has a taste
20:37:45 <wob_jonas> (even if it's sometimes a horrible taste)
20:37:46 <shachaf> fizzie: Are there any shortened URLs containing the string "pooch"?
20:38:01 <shachaf> fizzie: I heard there was a spot of the kerfuffle about URL shortening recently.
20:38:17 <fizzie> gamemanj: You get cold water at the press of a button, but for hot water you need to press a button first, and then a different button in a short interval of time.
20:38:34 <gamemanj> fizzie: Do not underestimate children.
20:38:36 <shachaf> fizzie: No way a child would ever figure that out.
20:38:53 <fizzie> Well, I'm a bit worried, because *I* could figure it out without instructions.
20:38:56 <wob_jonas> you have to press buttons? surely no child would ever want to waste his time on pressing buttons to see what happens
20:39:13 <fizzie> The two hot-water buttons are identical, and once you've pressed one, the other blinks.
20:39:42 <gamemanj> Are they asking for scalded hands?
20:39:45 <wob_jonas> we've already talked about this today. children these days just use their touchscreen smartphones, they don't like pressing actual buttons
20:39:58 <fizzie> The Chicago office had a TEAbot.
20:40:28 <fizzie> A sort of a thing with jars of loose-leaf tea, and a tablet as the user interface.
20:40:39 <wob_jonas> Where are the buttons, are they placed under the tap so you have to reach in carefully, or press it with the cup?
20:40:49 <shachaf> fizzie: please recommend a loose-leaf tea twh
20:40:50 <fizzie> http://www.foodandwine.com/fwx/drink/teabot-tea-making-robot-tea-lovers-dreams
20:41:37 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm not a high-fidelity tea person, I just pick from what's been supplied.
20:41:48 <gamemanj> Is a tea make considered unoriginal and bland if it's a Braintea derivative?
20:41:59 <fizzie> I've bought the Clipper brand things because they have nice boxes.
20:42:17 <wob_jonas> You know, like these soda machines where you just have to push your cup forward under the tap to trigger a mechanical handle with the cup, but instead people try all sorts of things like pushing or pulling the handle with their hands, with or without a cup.
20:42:26 <shachaf> fizzie: Nice boxes? That sounds good.
20:43:16 <shachaf> fizzie: But all I see is bags?
20:43:32 <gamemanj> wob_jonas: Put a symbol on the side of the mug, and an obviously interlocking symbol on the machine port.
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20:44:53 <\oren\> Today is Cirno Day! ⑨/⑨
20:45:04 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: dunno, good interface design is hard
20:45:12 <\oren\> ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQq_mZc3y_s
20:46:30 <fizzie> wob_jonas: Yes. Preparing hot water without the handy tap is such a chore, I do all my tea at work.
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20:47:34 <gamemanj> fizzie: you "do" your tea? That's making me imagine some sort of drug pusher handing you some Earl Gr[ea]y.
20:48:41 -!- hppavilion[2] has joined.
20:48:44 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I also drink most of my tea at work, but not because of that. Both at work and at home I make tea by boiling water in a small electric kettle, pouring half a liter in a cup, and adding a teabag for coloring the water.
20:48:55 <wob_jonas> It's exactly the same procedure at home or at work.
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20:50:22 <fizzie> shachaf: That's weird. The grocery stores (at least in Finland) had loose-leaf Clipper brand tea. I don't know why their website is so bag-only.
20:52:11 <\oren\> and it's the right way around too
20:52:19 <HackEgo> \oren\'s font is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
20:52:51 <hppavilion[2]> \oren\: Congratulations, BTW, my school has your site blocked
20:53:37 <gamemanj> perhaps: ln -s "wisdom/oren's font" wisdom/neoletters
20:53:50 <gamemanj> (Warning. I have no idea how HackEgo would react to this. That's what makes it so fun!)
20:53:51 <\oren\> My site doesn't have any ads at all... maybe that's what's prohibited
20:54:13 <gamemanj> so they can replace them with their own ads!
20:54:35 <wob_jonas> `slashlearn oren's font/\oren\'s font neoletters is http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
20:56:12 <hppavilion[2]> Even if there WERE ads, everyone has adblock nowadays
21:00:38 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
21:01:21 <hppavilion[1]> |G|lobally search |Ræ|gular |E|xpression and |P|rint
21:01:35 <wob_jonas> hpp: grapes? nah, I prefer raspberries, thanks.
21:01:46 <gamemanj> wob_jonas: I prefer my raspberries in a pie, rather than raw.
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21:37:02 <fungot> wob_jonas: regardless of whether or not a file in big-5 encoding. how would you like
21:46:08 <gamemanj> Well, this should be ゚interesting.
21:47:32 <fungot> wob_jonas: stop twisting words again.
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21:48:10 <gamemanj> I wonder why so many people are unaffiliated?
21:50:03 <\oren\> unaffiliated with what?
21:51:24 <Taneb> gamemanj, I am legally required to be non-partisanb
21:51:34 <gamemanj> I'm guessing they're actually aliens from another planet, in disguise as humans. Or time travellers. Or alien time travellers. They seem kind, so that's good.
21:55:37 <wob_jonas> gamemanj: no way. surely time travellers would know all our history and are familiar with all the terrible consequences the Other Candidate's term as president has brought and are able to view it from a perspective unbiased by the nasty mud-slinging of this campaign, so they won't remain unaffiliated but will support My Candidate fully.
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22:03:13 <wob_jonas> right, "short-sighted", that's what that sentence needs
22:04:01 <\oren\> it's interesting that both candidates are now essentially saying the world will literally end if the other one winds
22:04:47 <wob_jonas> \oren\: well duh, people are always saying that
22:07:57 <\oren\> did they say that during the 2008 election?
22:08:19 <\oren\> I don't remeber them saying it over and over back then
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22:14:57 <HackEgo> wisdom/cocoonspirator \ wisdom/coonspirator \ wisdom/racoonspirator
22:15:15 <HackEgo> A racoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in fur
22:20:53 -!- Reece` has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:33:11 <HackEgo> A cocoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in caterpillar silk
22:33:16 <HackEgo> A coonspirator is caterpillar silk wrapped in collaborators.
22:36:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:38:08 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*err*: No such file or directory
22:38:15 <HackEgo> wisdom/6 random numbers \ wisdom/abstract nonsense \ wisdom/adpoted \ wisdom/adventure \ wisdom/algebraic chess notation \ wisdom/algebraic number theory \ wisdom/al gore \ wisdom/alice \ wisdom/alise \ wisdom/all the tropes \ wisdom/almond bread \ wisdom/america \ wisdom/amnesium \ wisdom/amortized \ wisdom/antediluvian \ wisdom/applicative functo
22:38:35 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*dire*: No such file or directory
22:38:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/applicative functor \ wisdom/bicategory \ wisdom/cat \ wisdom/catamorphism \ wisdom/categorical product \ wisdom/category \ wisdom/category-helpdesk \ wisdom/category theory \ wisdom/cat elimination \ wisdom/cat introduction \ wisdom/implication \ wisdom/monoidal category
22:38:53 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
22:38:54 <fizzie> `learn Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse.
22:38:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'cocoon': Cocoon was built by the fal'Cie, and floats above Gran Pulse.
22:39:16 <HackEgo> cat elimination is the process of replacing a one-argument `cat` command with the shell operator <
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22:40:49 <fizzie> The thing is, "cat X | foo | bar | baz" has a much more natural ordering of things than "foo < X | bar | baz".
22:42:02 <fizzie> And "< X foo | bar | baz" just looks silly.
22:42:05 <wob_jonas> though of course it's almost impossible, because the difference is observable in too many ways
22:42:37 <wob_jonas> fizzie: of course it does. you should write it without the space after the angle bracket, like <X foo | bar | baz
22:43:04 <fizzie> I don't like the file name touching the operator.
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22:49:10 <\oren\> if cat is a builtin, then isn't it identical?
22:49:37 <izabera> cat isn't a builtin in most shells, and the pipe is still there
22:49:52 <izabera> you still fork but don't exec
22:49:54 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no. the program can seek the redirected file, or fstat or flock even do more evil things on it, but it gets just a pipe from cat
22:50:33 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it's not really the cat that matters, but the connection
22:51:13 <wob_jonas> plus also, once we're at shell level, we don't have the beautiful definition of the C standard as-if rule about what is "identical" enough. someone could kill the cat, or ptrace it or anything.
22:51:23 <wob_jonas> that's why you can't make an optimizing shell really
22:51:46 <pikhq> The closest you can do is a shell which implements as much as possible as builtins.
22:52:00 <pikhq> (this *is* actually allowed by the spec, but not a huge gain.)
22:53:04 <fizzie> Does the busybox shell actually run busybox commands builtin-like?
22:53:51 <fizzie> So if you kill it while it's pretending to be a gzip, you don't go back to the shell?
22:54:37 <\oren\> i assume that ^C is handled specially in that case though
22:54:49 <izabera> yeah just regular signal handlers
22:55:00 <\oren\> so you'd need another shell to kill it with
22:55:01 <izabera> but with sigkill of course there's not much you can do
22:55:12 <fizzie> That doesn't seem to happen on my busybox, at least for 'sleep'.
22:55:47 <izabera> let me find which apps are nofork
22:56:07 <fizzie> Maybe it's presumably-short-running ones.
22:56:27 <fizzie> Would make sense, since those would save the most.
22:57:20 <izabera> seq false whoami echo logname sync fsync touch true truncate yes basename dirname printenv pwd cat
23:09:54 <\oren\> could you make a program that compiles shell scripts into programs that fork, dup2, and exec?
23:10:22 <\oren\> izabera: a shell is an interpreter
23:10:24 <zzo38> Isn't the shell interpretive?
23:10:45 <izabera> so far i know no shell that compiles stuff
23:11:32 <izabera> you're only speeding up the interpretation part
23:12:16 <\oren\> and obfuscating the code at the same time
23:13:52 <wob_jonas> you can build a pessimized shell though, mind you
23:13:53 <izabera> the problem with this is that it works great with very simple shells but posix shells do a shitload of other stuff that's totally not trivial to translate
23:14:19 <wob_jonas> like http://blog.schmorp.de/2015-06-08-emulating-linux-mips-in-perl-1.html
23:14:39 <\oren\> and maybe this shell would have options to optimize things in unexpected ways
23:16:07 <\oren\> e.g. shell variables that are treated as numbers can be stored as numbers until such time as a string operation is performed upon them
23:16:39 <izabera> well it does that if you declare them as numeric variables
23:16:45 <wob_jonas> you know what they say about premature optimization
23:17:27 <wob_jonas> I mean, the ones in bash are sorry
23:17:31 <shachaf> you know what they say about floating point values
23:17:35 <shachaf> double, double, toil and trouble
23:18:21 <izabera> it's a song in a harry potter movie
23:18:22 <wob_jonas> fungot, could you lend me a newt's eye for the cocooncotion?
23:18:22 <fungot> wob_jonas: let's not and say we did! :-p cool. thanks.) since you bothered to type that
23:18:30 <izabera> but what was it before being sang in hp?
23:18:48 <wob_jonas> izabera: some lame Shakespeare stuff I think
23:18:51 <\oren\> it was a line from Macbeth
23:19:31 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMzrgXFeX_o
23:19:41 <\oren\> well, more I hate the people who don't translate shakespeare
23:20:05 <wob_jonas> "I should have married a crueler woman."
23:20:07 <izabera> Ait was in the disk 2 of the dvd
23:20:37 <\oren\> shakespeare is not written in modern english, therefore they should translate it into modern english before having kids read it
23:20:41 <shachaf> Eye of newt, and toe of frog, / Wool of bat, and pooch of dog
23:21:17 <Taneb> \oren\, striiiiiictly speaking, it is Modern English
23:21:30 <Taneb> Although you are well within your rights to argue I'm completely missing the point
23:21:40 <\oren\> in what possible sense?
23:21:59 <shachaf> \oren\: Some people defined some words and now everyone thinks their definitions are better than yours.
23:22:06 <\oren\> many words used by shakespeare are completely unknown to modern readers
23:22:20 <\oren\> or widely misunderstood
23:23:09 <Taneb> I personally find Shakespeare relatively easy to read
23:23:33 <wob_jonas> \oren\: well duh. he's made up a lot of new words. obviously not all would catch on. he still has quite a lot of success with many of them.
23:23:33 <\oren\> e.g. troth, wherefore, fair, whence
23:23:47 <Taneb> It uses slang that is unfamiliar, but so does a lot of stuff coming out of the US
23:24:11 <Taneb> So does a lot of stuff coming from 300 miles away in my home country's capital
23:25:00 <Taneb> Wherefore dost thou sayest such, shachaf?
23:25:16 <shachaf> Taneb: "dost thou sayest"?
23:25:38 <\oren\> shachaf: yes, but most modern people would understand it as meaning "when" but shakespeare meant "where"
23:25:41 <Taneb> "do you say", with singular you, attempting to emulate early modern english
23:25:58 <Taneb> \oren\, ...people understand it as meaning when?
23:26:03 <shachaf> Taneb: It reads more like "does he says" to me.
23:26:07 <wob_jonas> \oren\: what? we know what a "fair" is. it's either a convention where they're not trying to bother with a fixed schedule of presentations in large rooms because they know the point of a convention is people going around the stands in an unscheduled manner and meeting each other, or an adjective for elves.
23:26:25 <shachaf> \oren\: "whence" doesn't mean "where"
23:26:30 <shachaf> \oren\: It means "from where"
23:26:31 <Taneb> shachaf, well, clearly, you don't speak early modern english as well as I do
23:26:41 <Taneb> \oren\, I've never heard of anyone thinking it means "when" before
23:26:45 <\oren\> wob_jonas: yes, and shakespeare uses fair to mean "beautiful"
23:26:49 <shachaf> Taneb: Are you sure you're right about this?
23:26:56 <Taneb> \oren\, *I* use fair to mean beautiful
23:27:06 <shachaf> \oren\: "whence" means "from where", "hence" means "from here", "thence" means "from there"
23:27:07 <\oren\> Taneb: To a modern ear, wherefore means where, and whence means when
23:27:20 <shachaf> \oren\: "whither" means "to where", "hither" means "to here", "thither" means "to there"
23:27:26 <Taneb> \oren\, then I do not have a modern ear
23:27:37 <\oren\> wherefore art thou romeo = "where are you, romeo? I can't see you"
23:27:45 <Taneb> Wherefore being taken as where, I've heard of
23:27:50 <Taneb> Never whence being taken as when
23:27:54 <wob_jonas> And we know what a "whence" is too, it's the third argument of an lseek or fseek or similar function, and traditionally has the value of 0 for offset from start, 1 for offset from current position, 2 for offset from end of file, although these days some other values are possible.
23:28:06 <shachaf> wob_jonas makes a good point.
23:28:13 <HackEgo> wob_jonas is b_jonas in disguise, so that he can do magic tricks.
23:28:41 <wob_jonas> "fair" as beautiful, what's the point of that? we already have "pretty" and "handsome" to mean beautiful
23:28:44 <izabera> shachaf: so this is wrong? "from whence you came you shall remain"
23:28:47 <\oren\> Taneb: "From whence he came" = "he's a time traveller returning to his home time period"
23:28:55 <Taneb> wob_jonas, fair is a different kind of beautiful
23:29:10 <shachaf> izabera: I've heard "from whence". I'm not sure whether it's "wrong", it might just be redundant or something?
23:29:18 <Taneb> \oren\, I've seriously never heard anyone use it like that, or think it could be used like that before
23:29:55 <Taneb> wob_jonas, Legolas and Arwen are fair but not pretty or handsome, to me
23:30:22 <wob_jonas> no it's not! it's just partitioning the old fashioned chauvinist way: you say "beautiful" about women, "handsome" about men, "pretty" about children, and "fair" about elves, to enforce the notion that the roles of people in society should be determined by their gender and age and heritage.
23:30:31 <wob_jonas> they all mean the fucking same thing!
23:30:48 <wob_jonas> except, you know, when "fair" means a convention
23:31:14 <Taneb> I do associate them with different kinds of beauty, and there are definitely beautiful men and handsome women
23:31:50 <\oren\> "gainsay" most people today would interpret as "say again" but shakespeare meant "contradict, deny"
23:32:15 <shachaf> Taneb: I think the Thing from Addams Family is quite handsome.
23:32:31 <Taneb> shachaf, good for you
23:32:40 <shachaf> Taneb: what's that supposed to mean
23:32:49 <shachaf> is that some kind of insult
23:32:58 <wob_jonas> well, either it's clear to me that they're the same because I haven't grown up as an English speaker and so my head isn't full about ideas about which social classes of people should be beautiful in which ways, or I just don't understand the small difference between those worse because I've not grown up as an English speaker and I'm just imagining
23:33:06 <Taneb> shachaf, it means I disagree but recognize it's a valid opinion, and also I don't really care
23:33:27 <shachaf> It's not really an opinion.
23:33:43 <shachaf> I didn't know you could disagree with puns.
23:33:43 <Taneb> Oh! I was thinking of Cousin Itt
23:33:48 <shachaf> I guess you can find them disagreeable.
23:34:22 <wob_jonas> But since English has so many redundant synonyms, I'm always guessing the former by default.
23:34:56 <Taneb> wob_jonas, a lot of English synonyms have different connotations.
23:35:14 <Taneb> There are very few "true synonyms"
23:35:16 <shachaf> According to this book, beautiful men are rare: http://www.rulit.me/books/the-gone-away-world-read-423517-65.html
23:35:29 <Taneb> shachaf, I'd say Chris Hemsworth is one
23:35:41 <shachaf> "Ben was the rarest of things, a genuinely beautiful man. Good-looking men are commonplace, and beautiful woman are not rare. Male beauty, capable of overcoming the stigma attached to it and undeniable, is one in many hundreds of thousands."
23:36:10 <Taneb> I once saw a really beautiful man at university but I think he graduated before I got the chance to tell him so
23:36:23 <shachaf> Why would you tell someone so?
23:36:50 <shachaf> Cousin Itt and the Thing are really quite distinct.
23:36:56 <\oren\> "dateless" most people would think meant "unable to go to prom" but actually means "eternal"
23:36:56 <fizzie> shachaf: It's p. true: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=beautiful+man%2Cbeautiful+woman
23:36:59 <Taneb> Because it is more likely to make him happy than to make him sad
23:37:23 <shachaf> If you tell someone they're beautiful, it might make them happier.
23:37:31 <shachaf> But is it at the cost of making all people who aren't beautiful sadder?
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23:37:46 <shachaf> By attaching too much value to beauty of people?
23:37:49 <Taneb> Most people who aren't beautiful wouldn't have heard me say he's beautiful
23:38:48 <\oren\> "diaper" meant "towel" to shakespeare
23:38:49 <shachaf> copumpkin is going to read a story this weekend -- I believe it's the very last one in the book -- which is about lookism.
23:39:22 <HackEgo> Vampires are a wizarding myth Professor Lupin invented to make students hate Professor Snape even more, after Professor Snape almost made the students realize he's a werewolf.
23:39:23 <\oren\> "imperious" meant "majestic" to shakespeare
23:39:35 <Taneb> ...imperious does mean majestic, doesn't it
23:39:48 <Taneb> What else does it mean?
23:39:49 <shachaf> \oren\: "fantastic" meant "unrealistic" rather than "excellent" to Heinlein.
23:39:55 <shachaf> \oren\: And that was in the 1950s or something.
23:40:30 <\oren\> shachaf: so new editions should translate the words
23:40:46 <shachaf> But good translations are hard.
23:40:50 <Taneb> \oren\, it's just a different dialect, should American books be translated in British publication?
23:40:53 <\oren\> not leave them the same and append ever increasing numbers of footnotes
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23:40:58 <wob_jonas> \oren\: well duh, disposable diapers didn't exist back then. They were a rarity (in Eastern Europe) even when I was a baby, so I grown up with textile diapers on my ass and my parents had to wash them. How could Shakespeare had known?
23:41:05 <shachaf> Taneb: British books are translated in American publications, aren't they?
23:41:16 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't know, I've never bought a book in the US
23:41:22 <wob_jonas> "imperious" => is that even a word?
23:41:39 <\oren\> The first book of harry potter was "the sorceror's stone" in the USA
23:42:03 <\oren\> wob_jonas: yes and it means something like "overbearing" to a modern person
23:42:26 <Taneb> I'm going to bed now
23:42:44 <shachaf> copumpkin: what do you think of calliagnosia twh
23:42:52 <fizzie> wob_jonas: It's a misspelling of impervious hth
23:43:13 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I see. I mean, there's an M:tG card with "Imperious" in its name, but there are M:tG cards with all sorts of crazy rare English words, so that doesn't mean much
23:45:29 <shachaf> fizzie: Apparently BigQuery doesn't support proto data? #scow
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23:50:09 <\oren\> "jaded" meant "contemptible" to Shakespeare
23:50:29 <wob_jonas> "contemptible" isn't even a word, is it?
23:50:42 <fizzie> shachaf: How can that even be a thing.
23:51:28 <fizzie> shachaf: I'm sure it'll all turn into protos somewhere deep in the machine.
23:51:48 <shachaf> Probably even somewhere shallow in the machine.
23:51:56 <shachaf> Everything turns into protos.
23:52:10 <fizzie> shachaf: Have you seen that "two kinds of jobs" meme-image?
23:52:12 <shachaf> But that doesn't help you if all you can upload is CSV data.
23:52:23 <\oren\> wob_jonas: it is. it means "worthy of being hated"
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23:53:25 <fizzie> shachaf: I'd share it but I'm sure it's company confidential.
23:54:26 <shachaf> All images generated by the meme-image-generator-machine are confidential.
23:54:34 <\oren\> "vulgar" meant "of the people" in Shakespeare's time
23:54:53 <fizzie> Yes. This one's from 2012, so I presume you might have seen it, though I doubt it's super-popular.
23:55:50 <shachaf> It sounds vaguely familiar.
23:56:28 <shachaf> fizzie: What format would you use to store a log file containing protos?
23:57:40 <fizzie> Getting back to BigQuery, there seems to be something called Avro import (Apache thing with JSON-based schemas and proto-like binary wire format), and also something something Cloud Datastore. Though you're right -- no protos.
23:58:20 <shachaf> fizzie: The point of this would be queries on nested/heterogeneous data.
23:59:25 <fizzie> I don't know what's good for that, if anything.