00:03:28 <oerjan> i'd imagine that depends on the language culture e's supposed to be from...
00:04:15 <zzo38> Yes that makes sense it is supposed to depend on the language.
00:04:49 <zzo38> (Physical capability of speech could also affect it.)
00:05:31 <oerjan> also you should probably decide what syllable has the stress
00:06:24 <zzo38> (I used the program namegen.js that I wrote to make up the name, and then selected this one.)
00:09:50 <zzo38> I have thought of to make Magic: the Gathering card that has the effect: Target spell loses all subtypes and supertypes.
00:13:27 <zzo38> My brother said the second or third syllable has the stress
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00:45:13 <hppavilion[1]> Is there such thing as "efficients"? Probably the variables?
00:45:22 <hppavilion[1]> (By analogy to "coefficient", and not in a punny way)
00:47:28 <hppavilion[1]> In precalc today, one of the things you were supposed to do was solve a system of linear equations in 4 variables
00:47:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50232&oldid=50231 * Enoua5 * (+22)
00:47:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50233&oldid=50232 * Enoua5 * (-2)
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00:54:12 <HackEgo> CDOP is OCPD, except with the letters in the *proper* order.
01:25:13 <oerjan> weirdness you can count on
01:31:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Particularly, the proof that the pure sets are countable (iirc)
01:31:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Pure sets are sets that only contain pure sets.
01:32:21 <oerjan> that's not really a definition.
01:32:34 <oerjan> it could still mean all sets, like that.
01:33:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i would like an actual statement that is not fulfilled if you take "pure set" to mean "any set".
01:33:33 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: A set is pure if and only if all of its elements are also pure; the empty set is vacuously pure.
01:34:13 <oerjan> but actually that doesn't matter really
01:34:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: In an infinite form, a pure set is a Set which only contains sets which only contain sets which only contain sets which only...
01:36:14 <oerjan> and you still haven't given a statement that isn't satisfied by "all sets" :P
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01:37:07 <oerjan> well, barring urelements.
01:37:21 <oerjan> (but they're usually excluded anyway.)
01:37:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Hm, could I define it constructively maybe?
01:37:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: however, i think even the thing you are _trying_ to define is not just countable sets.
01:38:01 <oerjan> e.g. it includes the uncountable ordinals.
01:38:21 <oerjan> ok that i can believe.
01:38:29 <moony> hppavilion[1]: hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[0] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[0]
01:38:36 <moony> you make perfect binary
01:39:12 <moony> hppavilion[1]: oh right. hppavilion[2]
01:39:49 <moony> sqrt(-hppavilion[1]) = hppavilion[1]I
01:39:53 <moony> hppavilion[1]: never
01:40:22 <moony> hppavilion[1]: blame my keyboard
01:40:38 <moony> hppavilion[1]: I will help the nas decode your secret nick messages
01:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> moony: "_e" is the canonical way of encoding "_<umlaut>" when the umlaut is not available, and norwegian and danish's ø is an o umlaut in swedish and I *think* icelandic
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02:26:02 <enoua5> Can I get some help figuring out what Shuffle's paradigm is?
02:33:15 <enoua5> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Shuffle
02:34:29 <oerjan> none of the others fit, anyway
02:34:40 <enoua5> alright, I was thinking that, but wasn't sure.
02:34:54 <enoua5> also, do you think it's safe to assume it's not tc?
02:34:54 <hppavilion[1]> enoua5: Looks like imperative with a *tiny* dash of declarative?
02:35:12 <hppavilion[1]> enoua5: You assume it's not regular until you prove it, so yes.
02:35:39 <enoua5> I haven't figured out how to create a loop, so..
02:36:06 <hppavilion[1]> enoua5: Is there any way that you could *ever* change location in the code?
02:36:15 <enoua5> An infinite one anyway
02:36:44 <enoua5> I can get it to loop 2 or 3 times, but then it resolves
02:37:06 <hppavilion[1]> enoua5: Clearly you should have used a tarrot deck twh
02:37:23 <zzo38> A tarot deck does have more cards, so yes it can help
02:37:53 <enoua5> That would be interesting.
02:38:14 <enoua5> The card meaning get applied to the program
02:38:32 <zzo38> I will describe tarot cards here: There are four suits (swords/spades, rods/clubs, coins/diamonds, cups/hearts), with fourteen cards per suit (numbered 1 to 10 and a jack, horse, queen, and king), and trumps numbered I to XXI, and one Fool/Excuse.
02:38:46 <zzo38> There is the explanation there!
02:39:03 <shachaf> zzo38: didn't you see the warning about politics earlier tdnh
02:39:14 <enoua5> So, the cards which Unicode has defined?
02:39:26 <zzo38> I don't know which cards Unicode has defined
02:40:26 <enoua5> yeah, it is (I mentioned it in shuffle)
02:40:32 <pikhq> Looks like Unicode has defined the standard French deck as well as the tarot trump cards.
02:40:38 <zzo38> (I called it a horse here (it will depict a man riding a horse), but maybe a knight is better)
02:40:58 <pikhq> The Fool is U+1F0E0, and the higher ranks continue from there.
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02:41:22 <zzo38> If you do not have Latin-suited tarot cards then you can use French-suited tarot cards; I listed the corresponding suits between Latin and French suits.
02:42:26 <pikhq> Oh, yes, it also has three jokers.
02:42:35 <pikhq> And a generic playing card back.
02:42:51 <enoua5> This is an interesting idea to look into. I may have to look into for a shuffle++
02:43:55 <pikhq> The Unicode definition doesn't refer to the cartomancy tarot cards, but specifically the French tarot cards used in games.
02:44:32 <pikhq> (hence the 2 is Childhood, not the High Priestess)
02:45:00 <zzo38> Other than French-suited there is also Latin-suited, although if needed you can use them interchangeably like I have described.
02:45:46 <pikhq> It's really just the symbols that are different, they are entirely identical in terms of the set of possibilities, and hence interchangeable for games.
02:45:47 <enoua5> I'll have to look more into tarot cards, I've never used the,
02:47:28 <pikhq> *Just* like the generic Western sets are interchangeable, with 4 different choices of suits.
02:48:37 <zzo38> I have never used tarot cards either, but I can know the deck without ever having used them.
02:48:44 <pikhq> Though apparently with the German suits it's common to use a 36 card deck?
02:49:05 <pikhq> Yeah, I don't know any games that use them and I don't much care to try cartomancy.
02:49:14 <shachaf> zzo38: What about a Double Fanucci deck?
02:49:30 <zzo38> I know the Double Fanucci deck too.
02:49:43 <shachaf> "The original 15 suits (Mazes, Books, Rain, Bugs, Fromps, Inkblots, Scythes, Plungers, Faces, Time, Lamps, Hives, Ears, Zurfs, and Tops) each have eleven cards, valued at 0-9 and Infinity."
02:50:01 <zzo38> Yes, that is how it works, and there are also nine extra cards.
02:50:07 <shachaf> "The face cards are as follows: Granola, Death, Light, the Snail, Beauty, Time, the Grue, the Lobster, and the Jester."
02:51:05 <shachaf> "The biggest mistake made about Double Fanucci is the number of cards in the desk. Most claim that the complete deck contains 174 cards, but this number only refers to the number of unique cards per deck. In a proper game of Double Fanucci, there are in fact at least four of each card, which would give a complete deck at least 696 cards"
02:51:33 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I take it single fanucci has 2 of each card?
02:51:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50234&oldid=50233 * Enoua5 * (+7)
02:51:54 <shachaf> "(it is assumed that this version of the game was called Double Fanucci because it was played with a double deck, thus both a Single Fanucci or a Solitaire Fanucci deck may be thought to have only two of each card)"
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02:53:31 <zzo38> A deck with 696 cards is far more than a mahjong game.
02:54:32 <zzo38> (Unless you play the mahjong game with pokemons that I thought of, which has more than a normal mahjong game; you get four of each pokemon and a number of each element equal to the generation.)
02:54:55 <shachaf> How many pokemon are there?
02:55:28 <zzo38> Depends which generation you are playing; with first generation there will be 151 pokemons
02:58:27 <pikhq> shachaf: Approx. 800 as of this Friday.
02:58:56 <pikhq> (okay, technically they already exist, but that will be the first time you will be *able* to play with the new ones)
02:59:14 <pikhq> (without a pirate copy from some guy who got a cartridge early)
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03:00:53 <zzo38> This pokemon mahjong game has two kind of sequences; you can make a numeric sequence or a evolution sequence (and some sequences may be both; in the case of only one generation, all evolution sequences are also numeric sequences; the sequence still need exactly three cards like in normal mahjong though)
03:02:11 <izalove> is this gonna be like the mahjong videogame where you have to match up two tiles to remove them from the table or the actual game?
03:03:13 <izalove> i just realized that talking about sequences wouldn't have sense in one of the two
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03:45:49 <zzo38> I have thought that some displays and also some devices that emit a Digi-RGB signal, could have two connectors, labeled "coarse/left" and "fine/right". If the other device has only one connector, or if you only have one cable, then the "coarse/left" connector is used. You can use both with "deep colour" mode or "true stereovision" mode. (You can also use "interleaved stereovision" mode with only one connector.)
03:46:38 <zzo38> (The normal mode with one connector is just "true colour" mode.)
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05:29:38 <zzo38> I think I wanted to add a Delusion to my GURPS character to be interesting (and to use the points for skills), but I don't know what, and I also don't want something that would be easy to disprove, because then why would my character be deluded if he has disproven it?
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06:08:39 <zzo38> Do you like what I did with rule 120.8 of Magic: the Gathering?
06:11:04 <shachaf> I don't know what you did with rule 120.8 of Magic: the Gathering.
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06:12:58 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.7 (as of the datestamp mentioned the rule wasn't numbered 120.8, but I expect it to still work with current rules; that rule was only renumbered)
06:13:52 <zzo38> 120.8. If a spell or ability causes a card to be drawn while another spell is being cast, the drawn card is kept face down until that spell becomes cast (see rule 601.2i). While face down, it's considered to have no characteristics. The same is true with relation to another ability being activated. If an effect allows or instructs a player to reveal the card as it's being drawn, it's revealed after the spell becomes cast or the ability becomes acti
06:31:39 <zzo38> Do you like Magic: the Gathering cards?
06:34:57 <zzo38> If your bank interest is 100% compounded continuously, then in how many years will the numbers overflow in the computer?
06:36:51 <shachaf> How much memory does the computer have?
06:38:03 <zzo38> I don't know. I hoped you would know about how much they would need in the bank's computer.
06:41:47 <zzo38> That also I don't know.
06:41:52 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Once you know that, it's just B*ln(maximum_value), where B is your current balance.
06:42:03 <zzo38> (If I knew these things, I could answer the question myself.)
06:44:08 <zzo38> Yes, I think you are correct.
06:44:15 <zzo38> That looks correct to me too
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06:45:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Now, if they're storing the value as some sort of float (like idiots), you could mess it up with rounding errors LONG before you overflew
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07:19:55 <shachaf> Cale: So what do you think of the adjointness-as-associativity thing in Pratt's slides? Did I ask about it?
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09:23:22 <b_jonas> boily: no, it's not Accurate Hungarian
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11:32:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50235&oldid=50221 * Actuallyallama * (+10) Added CSL
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11:36:51 <int-e> Good one. "Maybe a better estimate is possible — the current upper bound for N^* seems a bit big." (That's the final sentence from the paper that established the lower bound 13 for the planar K_4 in hypercybe Ramsey theory problem)
11:37:56 <int-e> (That's the problem for which Graham's number is an upper bound, though not the best one known.)
11:43:20 <boily> `` ls wisdom/graham*
11:43:36 <boily> `? graham's number
11:43:36 <HackEgo> Graham's number isn't as delicious as his crackers.
11:55:43 <HackEgo> graham's crackers? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:59:31 <boily> fternooners are better.
11:59:39 <HackEgo> 2016-11-15 11:59:36.554537000+00:00
11:59:50 <b_jonas> does that mean today is the deadline of the
12:00:39 <b_jonas> of the CALESYTA contest, as advertized in the topic
12:04:54 <boily> "Results will be published before December 15th, 2016."?
12:08:06 <int-e> "Can you implement a Turing-complete language in less than 128 bytes?" ... Brainfuck already made that possible.
12:08:44 <int-e> (Which I find ironic since this is a point under "Rather than designing yet another variant of Brainf*ck, it can be much more interesting to work with trigger questions:")
12:09:41 <b_jonas> int-e: brainfuck isn't the only one. there are a handful of other tiny interpreter esolangs up there on the wiki, unrelated to brainfuck
12:11:35 <int-e> Of course it should be feasible to implement something in the "accidently TC" category that is much smaller.
12:11:37 <b_jonas> int-e: see the list at http://esolangs.org/wiki/Golf
12:12:00 <b_jonas> when you get really tiny interpreters though, it sometimes becomes a question of definition
12:12:22 <int-e> (The reference (and shameless plug) for the size of brainfuck implementations is http://www.hugi.scene.org/compo/compoold.htm#compo6 )
12:14:24 <FireFly> what's the format, DOS .com?
12:15:13 <int-e> b_jonas: anyway thanks for the link, I didn't expect such a nicely organized list.
12:15:45 <b_jonas> int-e: link that from http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_implementations
12:18:04 <FireFly> How is that topmost comment in your .asm source a block comment...
12:18:09 <FireFly> old assemblers worked in mysterious ways
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12:22:07 <int-e> FireFly: good question; I forgot, but I'm guessing it takes the character following the 'comment' as terminator, somehow.
12:24:33 <int-e> Ah, I was right. It's MASM syntax: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2096374/multiple-line-comments-in-assembly
12:25:09 <int-e> And it still works, https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/4c9h3x38.aspx
12:25:16 <FireFly> I was thinking it might be something like that
12:25:27 <FireFly> hacky, but neat and useful for art like that :P
12:27:46 <int-e> Ah, close enough... recode CP437:UTF8 < ENTRY.ASM
12:27:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50236&oldid=50094 * B jonas * (+158)
12:33:25 <int-e> b_jonas: sorry, didn't find my wiki credentials in time
12:34:01 <b_jonas> doesn't matter probably, nobody cares about brainfuck
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12:40:31 <int-e> b_jonas: it's still a gateway esolang :P
12:41:26 <b_jonas> yes, and I too am struggling with trying to get it out from my head
12:42:22 <int-e> FireFly: recode is a bit older, I believe, and I recalled its foo:bar syntax so I didn't need to read a manpage
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14:25:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50237&oldid=50234 * Enoua5 * (+132)
14:26:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50238&oldid=50237 * Enoua5 * (-2) /* Loop */
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16:10:00 <oerjan> <b_jonas> boily: no, it's not Accurate Hungarian <-- boily was not there hth
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16:22:53 <\oren\> idea: a script in unicode whose combining character rules are turing complete
16:25:00 <oerjan> i guess that means the language is not normalizing
16:25:28 <\oren\> for exapmle, you could have COMBINING S COMBINATOR, COMBINING K COMBINATOR,
16:26:25 <\oren\> and COMBINING I COMBINATOR
16:26:49 <b_jonas> \oren\: um, how would you group those?
16:27:30 <\oren\> COMBINING COMBINATOR APPLY
16:28:23 <\oren\> or maybe just with ZWNBSP
16:30:15 <\oren\> brb my building is apparently on fire
16:45:33 <\oren\> nvm someone put it out
16:52:25 <b_jonas> \oren\: https://www.xkcd.com/723/
16:53:02 <oerjan> . o O ( brb my building is under attack by a monster nvm someone put it down )
16:53:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: what sort of monster? giant mantis? red spiders?
16:55:51 <oerjan> i was imagining something reptilish
16:56:54 <oerjan> everything's better with allosaurus
16:59:04 <b_jonas> or more dinosaurs => http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/10.html
17:00:12 * oerjan knew what that link was before clicking it
17:01:43 <\oren\> apparently somone was smoking on the 8th floor
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17:05:40 <Cale> shachaf: I don't know which slides you're referring to
17:07:31 <shachaf> http://boole.stanford.edu/pub/PrattCDOOct2016.pdf
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18:18:18 <\oren\> apparently "iw" is a deprecated language tag for israeli hebrew
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19:32:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50239&oldid=50238 * Enoua5 * (+85)
19:36:03 <shachaf> Cale: In particular slides 13-14
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19:50:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shuffle]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50240&oldid=50239 * Enoua5 * (-42) Redefined war return order
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20:18:36 <HackEgo> olist 1059: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
20:26:08 <myname> vso, i think it's the same as in english
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20:30:40 <HackEgo> bdsm//BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
20:30:41 <HackEgo> histogram//Histograms are diagrams showing histamine levels. Taneb invented them.
20:30:42 <HackEgo> opposite//Eht etisoppo yrogetac fo a yrogetac si tsuj taht yrogetac, tub sdrawkcab.
20:30:42 <HackEgo> potatoes//You are not allowed to take potatoes to Norway without a special permit.
20:30:57 <ais523> ART is an esoteric timezone :-(
20:31:05 <ais523> CALESYTA deadline is in 6½ hours from now
20:31:30 <ais523> on a related note, anyone happen to know a Perl module that allows you to run an external program like a filter on input?
20:31:41 <ais523> as in, you give it a standard input and a command, it runs the command and gives you the standard output
20:31:46 <ais523> sort-of like the intended usage of vi
20:32:05 <shachaf> That's the intende usage of vi?
20:32:15 <ais523> well, it's how you do nontrivial things in it
20:32:27 <ais523> by getting an external command to operate on the contents of your buffer
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20:33:48 <int-e> hah that reminds me of http://sprunge.us/FiUL
20:33:54 <Zarutian> good damn, I understood that 1337 thing.
20:35:46 <int-e> 905? is that a year...
20:37:00 <hppavilion[1]> Has any[pb]o[nd]y ever made a programming language that behaves similar to a natural language?
20:37:28 <hppavilion[1]> Not, like, developed randomly in a Naturally Selected way over hundreds of years natural language
20:37:28 <fizzie> Both my ISP and BT keep talking about a fault being in "the green cabinet", that must be some sort of a term.
20:37:37 <hppavilion[1]> But with grammatical categories and subject-verb agreement
20:38:06 <Zarutian> fizzie: it is the one with the red blonking led?
20:38:17 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: I don't think anybony has.
20:38:36 <hppavilion[1]> A programming language with grammatical gender >:D
20:38:42 <shachaf> ais523: I would expect that to be a very common thing to do in Perl, so I'm surprised it's not built in.
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20:38:58 <fizzie> Zarutian: I don't know, I never found out. Presumably the truth, like the green cabinet, is somewhere out there.
20:39:40 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the sneaky king of #esoteric, see https://zem.fi/static/img/square_fizzie_320px_white.jpg
20:39:46 <ais523> shachaf: it isn't, Perl's built-ins can do it in one direction but not both
20:39:53 <ais523> however, I found IPC::Filter which seems to work
20:39:58 <ais523> as a bonus, it was written by an Agoran
20:40:30 <fizzie> 0.004 isn't the most trustworthy of version numbers.
20:40:40 <fizzie> Also I thought you said it was written by Aragorn.
20:40:51 <shachaf> fizzie: version numbers are scow agree/disagree
20:40:51 <fizzie> Well, I assume the Heir of Elendil knows his Perl.
20:41:27 <fizzie> shachaf: P. scow, I guess.
20:41:43 <shachaf> I mean library versioning.
20:42:44 <fizzie> ais523: I believe IPC::Run can do it, and is also a well-established module.
20:42:46 <int-e> I thought version numbers were fine, until somebody had the bright idea to coin the term "web 2.0".
20:42:58 <ais523> that's the solution #perl came up with
20:43:04 <ais523> but IPC::Filter has a nicer interface
20:43:16 <ais523> I'll go with IPC::Run to reduce the chance of random breakage, I guess
20:44:22 <Zarutian> shachaf: whatcha gonna do pun-ish me, eh?
20:45:41 <Zarutian> and it was in response to "now I'm torn" and not later messages
20:45:50 <int-e> Zarutian: you can expect a sound beating with a maperl.
20:46:36 * int-e is still wondering whether the "anybony" was a typo or a pun.
20:47:24 <fizzie> int-e: It was just an intentional unconventional expansion from hppavilion[1]'s "any[pb]o[nd]y".
20:47:39 <fizzie> (Deciding between anybony and anypody was hard.)
20:49:34 <HackEgo> quintopia:quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator. He is flooded by thundercats and thunderdogs. He is the temporal antipode of boily despite living on the same continent. \ Binary file reflection matches
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20:58:24 <HackEgo> one ring//One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
20:58:25 <HackEgo> welp//welp is humid kelp, and not at all related to toes, their hairs, and generic requests for TWHes and TDHes.
20:58:26 <HackEgo> entrymsg//ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki>
20:58:39 <HackEgo> 7030:2016-02-27 <tsweẗt> learn Drugs are no joke.
20:59:02 <HackEgo> 8218:2016-05-30 <b_jonäs> learn ENTRYMSG for #esoteric is Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki>
21:04:57 <HackEgo> brainfuck:brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs. The name is a euphemism for "beef". bf -c -t "+>+++++>+++" | mklang --array \ Binary file reflection matches \ sbeef:Sbeef is the culinary name for meat from scow.
21:05:03 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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21:21:32 <HackEgo> bin \ canary \ emoticons \ esobible \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hw \ ibin \ interps \ karma \ le \ lib \ misle \ out \ paste \ ply-3.8 \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ test1 \ test2 \ tmflry \ tmp \ wdiff-latest.tar.gz \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
21:21:44 <ais523> I said earlier that it's hard to write a quine in my CALESYTA language
21:21:56 <ais523> I just tried to write a pretty-printer
21:22:05 <ais523> in the end I had to resort to simulated annealing in order to produce a result
21:22:21 <HackEgo> sdhand: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:22:27 <ais523> the operation "go from AST to source code representation" is something that we normally take for granted as being easy
21:22:44 <ais523> and it's sort-of implicitly assumed that doing that's easy in normal quine constructions
21:22:48 <ais523> in this language, it is crazy hard
21:23:18 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
21:24:13 <Taneb> He's sat next to me
21:24:27 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that grammar British only?
21:24:33 <shachaf> I've only ever heard it from Brits.
21:24:51 <shachaf> Where can I read about it?
21:25:35 <shachaf> Someone in http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/18609/is-i-am-sat-bad-english says it's northern Englandish.
21:25:51 <shachaf> Another person says it's American?
21:26:35 <Taneb> I'm northern English, so that's believable
21:26:58 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of nine genders, and above average, not too voluminous, but calm eyebrows. He sometimes invents without noticing it (see: tanebventions).
21:26:59 <ais523> I agree with the top answer there, it's a very Yorkshire sort of phrase
21:27:19 <Taneb> Appropriately, I am very much in Yorkshire
21:27:35 <ais523> Taneb: moved out of Northumbria then?
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21:27:57 <Taneb> I have been for three years
21:28:13 <shachaf> Hasn't Taneb been a student at the University of York for a while now?
21:28:23 <ais523> now I'm racking my brains to figure out if there are any major universities in Northumbria
21:28:27 <ais523> I can't think of one offhand
21:28:34 <Taneb> In Northumberland, no
21:28:35 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
21:28:58 <Taneb> Northumbria university is in Newcastle
21:29:10 <Taneb> (as is Newcastle university)
21:32:27 <Taneb> But Northumberland is way too sparsely populated
21:32:57 <HackEgo> Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
21:33:15 <ais523> I hope the title is intentional :-)
21:34:01 <Taneb> It sounds like my sense of humour from five years ago
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21:34:27 <shachaf> Taneb has a very good northumbrain.
21:34:28 <HackEgo> 2904:2013-05-14 <Tanëb> learn Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
21:34:54 <shachaf> When Taneb becomes wise, he'll change his name to Tanwb.
21:35:39 <wob_jonas> ais523: so you managed to submit a language to claesyta? great
21:36:02 <ais523> still working on it actually, although it's already a complete submission
21:36:05 <ais523> just hoping to go a bit further
21:36:14 <ais523> the pretty printer is important for if I want to generate code
21:36:16 <wob_jonas> I'll be interested to see that later
21:36:27 <shachaf> How would you make an esoteric market or exchange?
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21:36:52 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the ordinary market is eso enough these days
21:37:02 <shachaf> It's complicated, but is it esoteric?
21:38:47 <wob_jonas> oh look, http://esolangs.org/wiki/ARGENTOS is for calesyta and it's already up on the wiki, so that's probably at least 2 submissions
21:39:03 <shachaf> Market microstructure is a pretty interesting topic.
21:39:08 <ais523> I think someone else here was planning to submit too
21:39:21 <ais523> the deadline's 2:59:59 am UTC
21:39:32 <ais523> I'll probably be awake then; if anyone else is I can talk through my entry then
21:39:41 <ais523> (don't want to discuss it until post-deadline)
21:40:16 <zzo38> I have five dice. Since my character has no attack that causes more than one dice of damage, I only need three of them, and the other two are not enough for another player (unless they have a similar set, and have an attack doing seven dice of damage, in which case I can give two of mine to them).
21:41:14 <wob_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/TinyBF -- argh! wasn't there already one of these/
21:42:56 <ais523> that's a more interesting approach to BF golf derivatives than I normally see
21:43:00 <ais523> I think it's possible to do better
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21:56:44 * APic only has 1d6 currently. ☺
21:56:49 <APic> At least i hope so.
21:58:33 <zzo38> Some games such as backgammon will need more than one dice though.
22:00:19 <zzo38> Yes, that too (and also many others)
22:00:45 <Taneb> But not chess, at least as I know the game
22:01:13 <zzo38> You do not need the dice for FIDE chess (although some variants will use dice)
22:02:16 <ais523> apparently very early versions of chess used dice to determine which piece you got to move
22:02:26 <zzo38> (Such as my own "123456 Chess" which uses the equipment from a combination chess/backgammon set, although the dice are not used to generate random numbers in this game.)
22:02:49 <ais523> I guess you could play modern chess under the roll-dice-to-see-which-piece-to-move rules too
22:02:58 <ais523> but I think it would be fairly frustrating
22:03:05 <ais523> you'd have to change the check/checkmate rules
22:05:07 <zzo38> Another variant of chess using dice that I have seen (but which doesn't use the dice for random numbers) is each player needs sixteen dice of their colour; they substitute for the pieces. What number is on top controls how that piece is moved (and which one(s) is king). After you move, you must turn the dice to any number other than the same or opposite.
22:05:19 <zzo38> (But you can choose which way to turn it)
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22:06:49 <wob_jonas> Or you could play ordinary chess, and use the dice to decide which player empties the ashtray.
22:07:42 <zzo38> Yes, if you have an ashtray, but that isn't using the dice for chess, since it is external to the game.
22:29:02 <ais523> `card-by-name Ashnod's Coupon
22:29:07 <HackEgo> Ashnod's Coupon \ 0 \ Artifact \ {T}, Sacrifice Ashnod's Coupon: Target player gets you target drink. \ Errata: You pay any costs for the drink. \ UG-R
22:29:57 <APic> You could combine throwing a Die with throwing Coins.
22:31:17 <wob_jonas> ais523: "the deadline's 2:59:59 am UTC. I'll probably be awake then; if anyone else is I can talk through my entry then" => I'll be sleeping. will you publish your language later, eg. on esolangs.org ?
22:31:43 <ais523> wob_jonas: I imagine it'll be published on the CALESYTA site at some point
22:31:54 <ais523> but I plan to at least publish it by reference on Esolang when I'm awake enough to do so
22:34:26 <ais523> huh, I just realised that Ashnod's Coupon is potentially even useful
22:34:48 <ais523> despite its effect having nothing to do with the game, there are some decks which need artifacts that cost {0} and don't care what they actually do (so long as it doesn't hurt them)
22:36:28 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure. you can use it to get a drink when you're lazy to get up, or you can use it to distract your opponent to cheat a Cheatyface in play, or to make your opponent drop a Charm School
22:36:56 <ais523> oh, I was assuming other Un-cards weren't in use for some reason
22:37:01 <ais523> but if you're playing one you're probably playing more
22:37:09 <shachaf> oh man, Ashnod's Coupon + Cheatyface is a good combination
22:37:45 <shachaf> I wish they would revise the Oracle text for uncards.
22:37:52 <\oren\> chess where you roll a die for initiative every pair of moves
22:38:14 <wob_jonas> ais523: as for artifacts that cost {0} that don't do anything useful, that's why they printed Darksteel Relic, though of course there are other artifacts you can use
22:39:16 <\oren\> some moves, white goes first, some moves, black does
22:40:23 <ais523> what happens if one player is in check?
22:40:38 <\oren\> maybe make an exception
22:41:11 <ais523> it's probably a bad idea for giving check to give you a 50% chance to win
22:41:25 <\oren\> if one player is in check they always move first. if both are, they roll dice as normal
22:41:29 <ais523> (that said, check-chess is a fairly fun quick game, the rules are identical to normal chess except that if you give check you immediately win)
22:43:15 <wob_jonas> that said, I don't think an artifact that doesn't do anything is generally useful except in limited games, because there are so many better artifacts
22:43:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: at {0} your choice is often limited
22:43:54 <ais523> there's a Modern deck which plays a playset of every {0}-cost Equipment that's legal in the format, I think
22:44:20 <ais523> I can't remember the exact combo it uses, but it probably involves Puresteel Paladin
22:44:24 <ais523> `card-by-name Puresteel Paladin
22:44:31 <HackEgo> Puresteel Paladin \ WW \ Creature -- Human Knight \ 2/2 \ Whenever an Equipment enters the battlefield under your control, you may draw a card. \ Metalcraft -- Equipment you control have equip {0} as long as you control three or more artifacts. \ NPH-R
22:44:35 <zzo38> Spellbook might help if you don't need the ability to discard for hand size during cleanup step
22:45:00 <wob_jonas> admittedly the indestructible clause does help the Relic, since in formats where you play artifact decks, the opponent will often have artifact removal
22:45:40 <wob_jonas> ais523: a modern deck that plays a playset of every {0}-cost equipment ... hmm, let me check how many those are and which ones
22:46:19 <wob_jonas> still, equipment that doesn't do anything is usually more useful than a plain artifact that doesn't do anything
22:46:36 <ais523> oh right, the combo is probably Puresteel Paladin + Hurkyll's Recall
22:46:49 <ais523> with the Paladin out, all your {0} cost equipment cycles
22:47:05 <ais523> then you play Hurkyll's and get to draw a card for each equipment you've cycled
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22:47:21 <ais523> you still need a win condition from there (attacking with the Paladin would be risky) but that would only need to be a couple of cards
22:48:34 <wob_jonas> there are 7 such equipment (if you count Sigil of Distinction
22:48:50 <ais523> `card-by-name Sigil of Distinction
22:48:53 <HackEgo> Sigil of Distinction \ X \ Artifact -- Equipment \ Sigil of Distinction enters the battlefield with X charge counters on it. \ Equipped creature gets +1/+1 for each charge counter on Sigil of Distinction. \ Equip--Remove a charge counter from Sigil of Distinction. \ ALA-R
22:49:02 <ais523> yes, I assume you'd count that
22:50:36 <wob_jonas> so it tries to draw a lot of cards quickly?
22:51:06 <wob_jonas> that can work, there are other decks that try to draw a lot of cards somehow, and many can be built in modern
22:51:36 <wob_jonas> my elf control deck tries to do that too (though it's not a Modern one)
22:51:45 <wob_jonas> and there are good elf decks doing it too
22:52:28 <ais523> I used to play combo elves in Time Spiral block, except with slivers
22:52:36 <ais523> but it's the same combo, just a different creature type
22:52:50 <ais523> might be interesting to make the deck for Modern but I don't want to give Wizards any more money
22:53:17 <shachaf> ais523: How's your game thing going?
22:53:31 <ais523> game thing? my own TCG?
22:53:34 <ais523> I'm busy with CALESYTA atm
22:53:38 <ais523> but there are a couple of rules I want to change
22:54:01 <shachaf> I guess I can ask when CALESYTA is over.
22:54:03 <ais523> like, I think I want the stack-equivalent to work more like M:tG's than like Yu-gi-oh!'s, purely for memory issues
22:54:20 <ais523> one of the guiding goals in the design here is to make it so that you can determine the entire gamestate simply by looking at the table
22:54:31 <shachaf> I don't know how Yu-gi-oh!'s works.
22:54:43 <ais523> it's sort-of like Magic's except that when it starts resolving you can't stop it
22:54:44 <wob_jonas> ais523: does that mean no hidden information?
22:54:58 <ais523> wob_jonas: no, I mean you can determine the entire non-hidden gamestate by looking at the table
22:55:19 <ais523> all information that's hidden to one player but not the other is in the hand of the player who's aware of it (this probably generalises to multiple players but I haven't attempted that yet)
22:55:22 <wob_jonas> so you'll still have shuffled decks, right?
22:55:26 <ais523> all information that's hidden to everyone is in the ordering of the decks
22:55:52 <ais523> oh, the "hidden to one player but not the other" is not quite true, players have a sideboard-equivalent as well
22:55:53 <wob_jonas> and by TCG you mean a trading (=collectible) card game, right?
22:56:06 <ais523> yes, or something in that genre
22:56:22 <ais523> the method via which the cards are actually sold doesn't really have an effect on the rules
22:56:37 <wob_jonas> sure, but it has a lot of game design consequences
22:56:46 <wob_jonas> it's harder to design a trading card game than a general card game
22:57:14 <ais523> well, it's intended as a game in which each player builds a deck from a cardpool
22:57:30 <ais523> which is the feature of trading card games that makes them hard to design for
22:58:14 <wob_jonas> um, and is the list of your opponent's starting deck public (unlike in M:tG usually)
22:59:17 <wob_jonas> I was thinking on how to make a tcg, but haven't got anything that would really work well. I've got a few ideas, but they don't make a complete game.
23:00:38 <wob_jonas> btw, ais523, what do you think of the card Treasonous Ogre? it seems strange to me that they dared to print it
23:01:18 <wob_jonas> probably won't break anything, but only because they don't print it in a modern-legal set. but if it's a card that they can't print in modern, then why do they make such a card in first place?
23:01:51 <wob_jonas> it's a card that costs 3R and you can immediately get six mana back.
23:02:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shuffle]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50241&oldid=50240 * Enoua5 * (-8) updated interpreter
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