00:01:37 -!- augur has joined.
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00:07:11 <HackEgo> esrb//ESRB = Eric Steven Raymond's beard
00:07:12 <HackEgo> enrichment center//The Enrichment Center regrets to inform you that this next test is impossible.
00:07:13 <HackEgo> banana//Bananananananana BATMAN!
00:07:13 <HackEgo> ha//Ha van szíved, hogy mindazt, mit elértél, / Ha kell, egyetlen kockára rakd, / s túltegyed magad, ha veszteség ér, / s ne legyen róla többé egy szavad
00:07:14 <HackEgo> ol//OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList.
00:07:46 <HackEgo> 9126:2016-09-30 <shachäf> learn OL stands for Original Lyrics. A person who sings songs unmodified is called an OList.
00:17:46 <HackEgo> If you can make one heap of all your winnings / And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, / And lose, and start again at your beginnings / And never breathe a word about your loss:
00:36:11 <oerjan> ah, Zarutian decoded `? 1337
00:43:23 <hppavilion[1]> I can't tell. I think the last word is "GOS" and is intentionally illegible
00:44:23 <shachaf> I think it refers to a time period.
00:47:35 <ais523> ugh, should I do more work on CALESYTA?
00:47:40 <ais523> not sure how much I can get done in two hours
00:47:55 <ais523> writing a program much more complex than the ones I already have will probably require compiling into it
00:48:12 <ais523> I've written the very backend of such a compiler (effectively a pretty-printer, which is nontrivial in this language)
00:48:23 <ais523> but the rest of the work will be tedious and probably not done in time
00:49:17 <ais523> a) are there /any/ good entries in wisdom? b) should we be pruning it the same way as we used to prune the quotes?
00:49:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uote: not found
00:49:21 <HackEgo> 937) <esomimic> fungot: begrudging pat
00:49:30 <shachaf> ais523: That's what I was doing earlier.
00:49:40 <shachaf> Oh, you weren't the one who commented on spam.
00:50:00 <HackEgo> 1/3:846) <kmc> it's kind of the multiocular O of countries, if you will \ 944) <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: my department teaches prolog, to second years I think <ais523> some people choose it because it isn't ocaml, and then are disappointed to find it has lists \ 1243) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way t
00:50:07 <HackEgo> 2/3:o indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing) \ 614) * oerjan concludes that unsafeCoerce has no effect on strictness \ 922) <jconn> fungot: |open quote <jconn> fungot: | just to help an fnord archive)" [...] <fungot> jconn: i am just as confused. you know, that thing which y
00:50:10 <HackEgo> 3/3:ou might want is broken
00:50:45 <ais523> those are all good quotes
00:50:54 <ais523> that said, 937 wasn't really
00:50:58 <ais523> we could delete that one instead, perhaps
00:52:37 <HackEgo> for i in {1..5}; do quote; done | sport
00:53:33 <shachaf> `mkx bin/5//cmd=quote; [ "$1" == w ] && cmd=wisdom; for i in {1..5}; do "$cmd"; done | sport
00:53:46 <shachaf> This was supposed to be about wisdoms.
00:53:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it doesn't quite literally fit your earlier question, but have you looked at Perligata?
00:53:54 <HackEgo> 1/2:newline//Newlines are le/rn's \ biggest weakness. \ abstract nonsense//We would have an explanation of abstract nonsense here, but it fled into a diagram and we haven't been able to chase it. We will try again once we find an abstract machete. \ parsley//Parsley is a girl in the South Seas. Persil est une demoiselle des Mers du
00:53:59 <HackEgo> 2/2:Sud. \ ghoul//Ghouls are undead that eat BRAINS. So basically, bog standard undead like zombies or wights, but with some fancy back story in the book that nobody reads. \ northumberland//Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RISE!
00:54:39 <shachaf> ais523: I think most wisdoms added by oerjan are good.
00:56:16 <HackEgo> 1791:2013-01-25 <shachäf> learn Parsley is a girl in the South Seas. \ 1793:2013-01-25 <boil̈y> learn Parsley is a girl in the South Seas. Persil est une demoiselle des Mers du Sud.
00:57:10 <shachaf> I'm not sure why I added it, but it comes from _The 35th of May_, a book by Erich Kästner.
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01:05:22 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you'll remember it if you look at Perligata hth
01:06:02 <ais523> I didn't see the original question
01:06:11 <oerjan> parsley definitely seemed the weakest one to me
01:06:12 <ais523> OTOH I have a good idea of what sorts of questions Perligata would be the answer to
01:06:48 <ais523> btw, how practically useful is Perligata for actually writing programs?
01:06:55 <oerjan> well it was somewhat spread over several lines so awkward to paste
01:06:55 <HackEgo> 1/3:locale//Locales are just frames, which are just complete Heyting algebras. Taneb accidentally invented them by asking about lattices. The only locale available in #esoteric is en_NZ.UTF-8. \ theseus//Theseus was a Greek inventor who was charged with impossible-to-detect murder. He was represented by Protagoras and found not guil
01:07:03 <HackEgo> 2/3:ty. He changed his name to escape the publicity and has continued inventing to this day. \ eridanipoid//Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.b_jonas//b_jonas egy nagyon titokzatos személy. Hollétéről egyelőre nem ismertek. \ bfjoust/
01:07:05 <HackEgo> 3/3:/bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
01:07:22 <shachaf> Pretty good how I cut it down from 10 lines to 6, huh?
01:07:31 <shachaf> Now I can use three more lines to gloat about it it.
01:07:36 <shachaf> And have it come out a net gain.
01:08:02 <oerjan> shachaf: there seems to be some bug in the line joining...
01:08:26 <oerjan> shachaf: objects.b_jones
01:08:49 <HackEgo> 3307:2013-07-23 <boil̈y> learn eridanipoid is a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. \ 3498:2013-08-28 <boil̈y> echo "Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants." >wisdom/eridanipoid \ 3499:2013-08-28 <oerjän> echo -n " They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects." >>wisdom/eridanipoid \ 3500:2
01:09:51 <HackEgo> 3505:2013-08-28 <oerjän> revert \ 3504:2013-08-28 <oerjän> sed -i \'s/form dense/occur in dense/\' wisdom/eridanipoid \ 3503:2013-08-28 <oerjän> perl -e \'my $a = join "", <>; $a =~ s/\\n//g; print $a\' wisdom/eridanipoid >q; mv q wisdom/eridanipoid \ 3502:2013-08-28 <oerjän> revert \ 3501:2013-08-28 <oerjän> perl -i -e \'my $a = join "",
01:10:08 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Has any[pb]o[nd]y ever made a programming language that behaves similar to a natural language?
01:10:18 <shachaf> This seems like way too much complexity to create the string in that wisdom entry.
01:10:31 <shachaf> `` echo >> wisdom/eridanipoid
01:10:52 <ais523> oerjan: actually, just original Perl is also a good answer to that question
01:11:04 <ais523> it was intentionally constructed along similar lines to English
01:11:08 <ais523> which explains a lot, really
01:11:38 <ais523> btw, on the subject of ARGENTOS: should we have foreign-language versions of the Esolang wiki?
01:11:46 <ais523> IMO the spanish version should be called es.olangs.org
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01:13:40 <oerjan> ais523: the followup lines mentioned grammatical inflection and agreement. even perligata doesn't satisfy all of it.
01:14:16 <oerjan> shachaf: hmph so it was my fault. at least we have `learn_append now.
01:14:46 <oerjan> (probably that was one of the messes that made me make it. if i was the one who made it.)
01:15:34 <ais523> `sled bin/learn_append
01:15:59 <ais523> `doeg bin/learn_append
01:16:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: doeg: not found
01:16:55 <oerjan> ais523: i doubt there's enough personpower to maintain foreign-language versions.
01:17:40 <oerjan> `doat bin/learn_append
01:17:47 <HackEgo> 4874:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> mv raw.txt bin/learn_append \ 4875:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> chmod +x bin/learn_append \ 4877:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> sed -e \'/^M/d\' bin/learn_append > bin/learn_append \ 4879:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> mv -f raw.txt bin/learn_append \ 4880:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> sed -i -e \'/^M/d\' bin/learn_append > bin/learn_append \ 4882:2
01:17:58 <oerjan> (the names are all logical i swear)
01:18:16 <ais523> I know they're logical, I just can't remember what they are :-P
01:18:16 <oerjan> hm looks like it was mroman
01:18:25 <ais523> having them generated by rules isn't useful if you can't remember the rule
01:19:05 <HackEgo> `[hd]o[aw][gt] [<filename>] is a set of commands for querying HackEgo hg logs. `hoag is the basic version. d adds revision numbers and dates, w looks only in wisdom, and t lists oldest first.
01:19:31 <oerjan> (yeah i know the same applies to the name of that wisdom)
01:19:31 <ais523> can we hae a rule for remembering what the rule is?
01:20:12 <HackEgo> Shaventions include: before/now/lastfiles, culprits, hog/{h,d}oag, le//rn, tmp/, mk/mkx, sled/sedlast, spore/spam/speek/sport/1. Taneb invented them.
01:20:27 <oerjan> that list's a bit incomplete alas
01:20:56 <HackEgo> 4873:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> fetch http://codepad.org/PW0O3FBY/raw.txt \ 4874:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> mv raw.txt bin/learn_append \ 4878:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> fetch http://codepad.org/PW0O3FBY/raw.txt \ 4879:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> mv -f raw.txt bin/learn_append \ 4881:2014-09-26 <mroman̈_> fetch http://codepad.org/PW0O3FBY/raw.txt \ 4882:2014-09-26
01:21:04 <ais523> controversial statement: an esolang is bad if it draws a clear distinction between data storage and control flow
01:21:15 <shachaf> oerjan: what if there was, like, just one command, and it, like, took command line flags, man?
01:21:26 <ais523> shachaf: you mean like busybox?
01:21:37 <oerjan> shachaf: i've actually considered that. `hog would be a good name, i think
01:21:53 <shachaf> ais523: I I think an just meant regular flags, not $0
01:22:10 <ais523> shachaf: busybox can also be called as "busybox" and be given arguments
01:22:36 <ais523> that determine which program it acts like
01:22:41 <shachaf> ais523: I meant more "like just about every UNIX program".
01:22:57 <shachaf> The options to hoag are mostly independent.
01:23:31 <shachaf> The scheme might need to be modified slightly for HackEgo.
01:23:51 <shachaf> Doing its own flag parsing on $1 or something.
01:24:29 <shachaf> ais523: I think an esolang is good if it defies strict guidelines like the one you proposed.
01:25:07 <ais523> shachaf: I'm mostly thinking about the flood of uninteresting esolangs
01:25:14 <ais523> and about what makes them uninteresting
01:25:39 <ais523> BF derivatives tend to be uninteresting, but this isn't fundamentally because they're BF derivatives
01:25:44 <ais523> it's because they don't bring anything new to the table in terms of the way computation is done
01:26:25 <oerjan> you may be looking for the word "originality"
01:26:44 <ais523> oerjan: well, yes, being original is good
01:26:56 <ais523> however, most of the time when an esolang is original
01:27:18 <ais523> it's because it has a core idea and allows the rest of the language to flow naturally out of the idea
01:27:26 <ais523> rather than using existing, well established programming patterns
01:27:47 <ais523> so that tends to mean that the data and control get all mixed up with each other
01:28:20 <ais523> lens has many esolang-like properties
01:28:24 <ais523> however I'm not sure it's actually a language
01:28:28 <ais523> maybe it's an esolibrary?
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01:29:37 <oerjan> didn't someone (Taneb?) prove lens TC
01:29:54 <ais523> what does it mean for lens to be TC?
01:30:27 <oerjan> that you can do arbitrary computation composing only identifiers defined in lens, i guess
01:30:56 <ais523> in that case, I guess lens + composition is a language
01:31:22 <ais523> didn't we consider the question of how many identifiers you need for composition to be TC before now?
01:31:35 <ais523> Iota shows that you only need one for application to be TC
01:31:44 <ais523> however, composition has the issue that it's associative
01:31:50 <ais523> which makes it rather harder to write programs with it
01:32:18 <oerjan> underload with something else replacing (), iirc
01:32:29 <ais523> that wasn't really minimized though
01:32:36 <ais523> we proved it TC but didn't go beyond that
01:33:23 <ais523> also the dei command is stateful, so isn't ideal
01:34:22 <oerjan> technically any language where commands are always interpreted in strict order may considered as using composition
01:35:15 <oerjan> (not very minimal either)
01:35:18 <ais523> I guess working from Underload, we can have (:) (^) (a) (*) ^ as five combinators that are TC under composition
01:35:38 <ais523> (annoying that you need both (^) and ^ but I don't think there's any way to work around it)
01:36:17 <ais523> maybe there's an alternate minimization
01:37:26 <oerjan> you'd imagine there could be some way with just two commands.
01:37:36 <ais523> I don't think it's based on Underload though
01:38:47 <oerjan> + = increment top of stack, ^ = interpret top of stack as underload program in unary. hth hth :P
01:39:07 <ais523> ooh: (((:)(^)(a)(*))(~)(~)) ! ^
01:39:31 <ais523> calling the first combinator L, we can get (~) via L^^!
01:39:36 <ais523> and ~ via (~)^, obviously
01:40:13 <ais523> once we have ~ and ! we can extract all the other elements of the lookup table that's produced via L!!^
01:40:39 <ais523> actually I think we can simplify L to ((~)(:)(^)(a)(*))
01:41:00 <ais523> (you'd probably want to put (!) and maybe even (S) in there too but they aren't needed for Turing completeness)
01:41:33 <ais523> if you're pushing (~) at the bottom, you can get ~ via L!!!!^, and that in turn lets you get at the other lookup table elements
01:41:49 <ais523> I agree that there's probably some way to do it with two commands though
01:41:50 <oerjan> ais523: you could also use the pre-! trick from my tables
01:41:50 <oerjan> (((:))(!(^))(!!(a)) ... )
01:42:30 <ais523> ooh: ^(~)(:)(^)(a)(*) and ! works I think
01:42:38 <ais523> (although obviously you have to start with a nonempty stack)
01:42:49 <ais523> let's call the first combinator M
01:43:23 <oerjan> i was imagining something + ^
01:43:55 <ais523> the idea is that you always maintain (~)(:)(^)(a)(*) on top of the stack after running a command
01:44:14 <ais523> then !!!!M lets you swap the two stack elements below that, giving you a working ~
01:44:29 <oerjan> i think not being able to initialize the stack is a bit scow
01:44:57 <oerjan> have you submitted your calesyta entry
01:45:06 <ais523> so I can still update it
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01:45:45 <ais523> actually, let me revise M to (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)()
01:45:48 <ais523> and start with () on the stack
01:46:04 <ais523> * revise M to ^(~)(:)(^)(a)(*)()
01:46:10 <ais523> it's much easier to prove that works
01:46:26 <ais523> you always maintain (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)() on top of the stack between each command run
01:46:40 <ais523> running M from that state pushes (~)(:)(^)(a)(*) onto the section of the stack below the invariant
01:47:19 <ais523> wait, I need an (!!) in there too
01:47:30 <ais523> let M be ^(~)(!!)(^)(a)(*)()
01:47:49 <ais523> *let M be ^(~)(!!)(:)(^)(a)(*)()
01:48:27 <ais523> M pushes our six commands onto the usable portion of the stack; !!!!!M pops the usable portion of the stack; !!!!!!M swaps the top two commands in the usable portion of the stack
01:48:35 <ais523> thus we can get any of the commands to the top of the usable portion
01:48:42 <ais523> and then execute it using !!!!!!!M
01:48:42 <Ox0dea> oerjan: Does your "hth" not expand to "hope that helps"?
01:49:16 <ais523> that gives us a fully working Underload-without-S, as ! can be expressed as :!!
01:49:51 <ais523> so I guess the next questions are, is there a way that works from an empty stack, and is there a simpler way?
01:50:12 <oerjan> Ox0dea: whatever gave you that idea
01:50:29 <Ox0dea> oerjan: It's the standard interpretation, anyway.
01:50:33 <ais523> I think it has a meaning of its own at this point
01:50:37 <Ox0dea> I've just never seen it used twice in a row like that.
01:50:40 <ais523> which may or may not have anything to do with the expansion
01:51:05 <ais523> like, it sort of means "hope that helps" but is normally used passive-aggressively, or perhaps ironically?
01:52:01 <oerjan> Ox0dea: the twice in a row is an artifact of a script i'm running hth
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01:52:12 <oerjan> (it chops off one hth from the end of my lines)
01:53:00 <ais523> oerjan: is the script an attempt to cure your hth addiction?
01:55:46 <oerjan> ais523: it was. written by elliott.
01:59:13 <HackEgo> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
02:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> Pretty sure "hth" is the IRC equivalent of punctuation
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02:03:45 <ais523> oerjan: OK, if you want it to work from an empty stack: (~)(!!)(a)(*)(:)(!!!!!!!!!!^)()()()() and ^
02:04:03 <oerjan> ais523: damn i'd almost got it
02:04:40 <oerjan> ((:))(!(^))(!!(a))(!!!(*))(!!!!^)(!!!!!!!) and ^
02:04:42 <ais523> L^^^^L^^^^^ gives you ~, L^^^L^^^^^ gives you !
02:05:12 <ais523> from L, ~, ! you have (~), (!!), (a), (*) (:), (!!!!!!!!!^)
02:05:46 <ais523> now you have * (via (*)^) and the above constructions, you can form (:!!) and (:::::::::!!!!!!!!!^)
02:05:59 <ais523> giving you all the quoted single Underload commands
02:06:11 <ais523> those plus * and a (i.e. (a)^) give you arbitrary Underload commands
02:06:19 <ais523> and from there it's just standard Underload
02:06:20 <hppavilion[1]> Matt Smith is apparently the King of Greece and Spain
02:06:49 <ais523> ooh, I like your solution
02:06:55 <ais523> it's using the same principle, right?
02:07:12 <oerjan> well i'm guessing they're similar
02:07:56 <ais523> with your construction L^ is ! directly, then you can use L!!^ for (*), L!!!^ for (a), L!!!!^ for (^), L!!!!!^ for (:)
02:08:03 <ais523> I don't see why you need the (!!!!^) case though
02:08:22 <oerjan> i was just starting with your original list above
02:08:43 <ais523> you already have a ^ by itself so you don't need to be able to find an unquoted ^ in L
02:09:19 <oerjan> ((:))(!(^))(!!(a))(!!!(*))(!!!!!!) and ^
02:09:36 <ais523> yours is simpler; do you want to add it to the article?
02:10:18 <oerjan> unless you can think of further simplifications
02:13:10 <ais523> (:)(a)(!!(^))(!!!(*))(!!!!!!) and ^ is simpler
02:13:39 <ais523> (:)(!a)(!!(^))(!!!(*))(!!!!!!) and ^ is simpler
02:13:42 <oerjan> hm can combine your idea of (~) at the bottom with it
02:13:42 <oerjan> (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!) and ^
02:13:42 <oerjan> then you get ~, which allows you to do remove the bottom ones
02:13:43 <oerjan> (~)(:)(^)(a)(*)(!!!!!!!) and ^
02:13:59 <ais523> oh yes, with ~ at the bottom things work out much simpler
02:14:06 <ais523> that's the same space I was working in
02:14:18 <ais523> (also apparently I was lagging, I got a burst of your messages all at once)
02:14:59 <ais523> because L^ needs to work as !
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02:16:05 <ais523> so right, this construction gives us L^ as !, L!!!!!^ as ~
02:16:32 <ais523> then combining L, ~ and ! lets us put any element of L on top of the stack individually, which we can run with ^ or just use as data
02:16:52 <ais523> we don't even need to be able to produce (!) for TCness, but we can via forming (:::::!!!!!!)
02:17:28 <ais523> theorem: no Underload quine contains exactly one ^
02:18:02 <oerjan> should i add S to it, just to have it reproduce all underload?
02:18:03 <ais523> also I think they all require at least two :
02:18:23 <ais523> that's a good reason to add it, but there's also a good reason not to
02:18:29 <ais523> you can't produce arbitrary strings with this construction
02:18:34 <ais523> so S doesn't have its full power anyway
02:18:48 <ais523> (you can produce programs /with the effect of/ arbitrary programs, but sometimes they use different code)
02:24:38 <ais523> I guess instead of adding S, you could add a full ASCIIbet
02:25:00 <ais523> (( )(!)($)…(A)(B)(C)…(~))
02:25:06 <ais523> plus the nonprintables if you care about those
02:27:21 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: TIL in the UK, "lieutenant" is sometimes pronounced with [lɛf] at the start.
02:27:36 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it's usually pronounced left-tenant here
02:28:01 <shachaf> it's a lot like the pronunciation of "colonel"
02:29:49 <ais523> FR: if someone misspells "messages" in the command name, misspell it the same way in the lack-of-messages report
02:30:38 <shachaf> What if they misspell "loud"?
02:31:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: The only way of writing it in non-IPA is "colnel"
02:31:55 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English
02:32:05 <oerjan> ais523: i'm going to go with just showing how to get enough for TC-ness.
02:32:15 <shachaf> To my knowledge, the pronunciation of "colonel" is the same in US and UK English.
02:32:23 <shachaf> In both cases it's pronounced like the word "kernel".
02:34:23 <shachaf> apparently you have no clue hth
02:34:30 <shachaf> (or, in the uk, no cluedo)
02:35:00 * boily *thwedoes* shachaf. 0.20 FP.
02:35:06 <hppavilion[1]> Hm, clearly, the glottal stop is the semivowel form of [ə] :P
02:36:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50242&oldid=43694 * Oerjan * (+792) /* A two-command basis for a concatenative language */
02:38:50 <boily> ais523: his523. it's not a misspalling hth
02:40:18 <shachaf> @@ (@tell boily duck) (@tell boily duck)
02:40:18 <lambdabot> Consider it noted. Consider it noted.
02:41:13 <ais523> 20 minutes to CALESYTA deadline
02:43:52 <boily> where did that goose come from.
02:44:29 <boily> the above doesn't help. all I see is a doubleduck.
02:44:30 <HackEgo> 1/2:☾_//☾_ is moon_'s lawful twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. He sometimes eats papers. \ le/arn//lern 2 spel \ monad//Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors. \ i,i//i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying". \ muphrys law//Mumphrie's
02:44:36 <HackEgo> 2/2: Law says things will be misspelled at the worst possible moment.
02:44:46 <shachaf> 18:39 <shachaf> @messageese-loud
02:44:56 <shachaf> boily: a double duck is a lot like a double dactyl
02:45:10 * boily is completely confuzzled.
02:45:33 <HackEgo> hppavilion1:higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed \ Binary file reflection matches
02:45:53 <shachaf> that's not a very good double dactyl tdnh
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02:56:27 <oerjan> <shachaf> When Taneb becomes wise, he'll change his name to Tanwb. <-- somehow the natural way to pronounce that leaves the wrong impression.
03:00:04 <ais523> darcs clone http://nethack4.org/esolangs/calesyta-2016
03:00:08 <ais523> ^ my CALESYTA submission
03:00:11 <ais523> note: will not work in a web browser
03:00:20 <pecan> I guess it sounds vaguely like “tan lube” if you squint kinda funny.
03:00:50 <ais523> <ais523> note: will not work in a web browser
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03:03:10 <ais523> version control system
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03:06:16 <shachaf> Named after W. B. Yeats, I'm sure.
03:08:46 <\oren\> colonel is clearly pronounced as :L
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03:12:22 <\oren\> I have a new, original, completely unoriginal idea
03:13:40 <Ox0dea> Use Tor hops for computation.
03:14:08 <Ox0dea> What could possibly go right?
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03:16:11 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
03:16:13 <HackEgo> Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
03:16:46 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
03:16:48 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
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03:18:03 <shachaf> oerjan: I've often wanted to make `? support a little language rather than just catting files.
03:18:24 <shachaf> So wisdoms can e.g. embed other wisdoms, rather than relying on symlinks.
03:18:30 <shachaf> And maybe other features? I don't remember.
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03:19:09 <shachaf> oerjan: On the other hand I think it's probably not worth the complexity.
03:19:22 <Jafet> `` grep -FRl '^#!' wisdom
03:19:40 <Jafet> `` grep -Rl '^#!' wisdom
03:19:59 <HackEgo> GNU bash, version 4.2.37(1)-release (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) \ These shell commands are defined internally. Type `help' to see this list. \ Type `help name' to find out more about the function `name'. \ Use `info bash' to find out more about the shell in general. \ Use `man -k' or `info' to find out more about commands not in this list. \ \ A star (
03:20:55 <Jafet> `` cat wisdom/reflection
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03:21:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/reflection
03:21:47 <Jafet> `` readlink wisdom/reflection
03:22:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%3F
03:22:36 <zzo38> When I saw the cat.wisdom/reflection. I guessed that it might be a symlink to /proc/self/cmdline
03:22:39 <shachaf> Jafet: I don't think it's a good idea to have multiline wisdoms.
03:22:41 <HackEgo> Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.
03:22:48 <shachaf> Jafet: It's easier to edit one-line files.
03:23:16 <Jafet> why do you think #! scripts need to have multiple lines?
03:23:42 <zzo38> Because one line is #! and the other line is the contents.
03:23:56 <zzo38> (Although, some #! scripts might not need a second line, most probably would need.)
03:23:59 <shachaf> I don't think they need to be multiple lines.
03:24:16 <shachaf> I'm just saying, I don't think it would be a good idea to make them multiline.
03:25:35 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What would a language designed for wisdom look like? Would it be an established Unixoidal thing, or new?
03:34:04 <shachaf> I wrote three !s first, and then checked the spelling, and somehow added two instead instead of one.
03:37:09 <shachaf> 24 is a pretty special number for all sorts of reasons hth
03:39:51 <oerjan> 3! is more special. it's perfect hth
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03:56:21 <shachaf> Hmm, can you make string diagrams for parallel/serial sum?
03:56:41 <shachaf> Does parallel sum correspond to some sort of tensor product?
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04:01:48 <shachaf> Cale: whoa whoa whoa, maybe https://www.irif.fr/~mellies/tensorial-logic/hopf-in-lux-1.pdf is connected
04:02:55 <shachaf> Pretty neat slides. String diagrams and game semantics.
04:03:05 <shachaf> I should learn about tensorial logic.
04:08:25 <zzo38> Is there a Haskell interpreter in JavaScript (preferably with the ability to compile the code it interprets into a JavaScript function too, that can then be callable by a JavaScript code)? I think this can help if writing part of a program in Haskell and some in JavaScript, for example if making an implementation of Eleusis card game then it can help for the dealer to write the secret rule as a Haskell code.
04:08:49 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether ghcjs can compile itself yet.
04:09:34 <alercah> zzo38: can you please put a copy of the eleusis rules somewhere btw?
04:09:38 <alercah> I have been trying to track one down
04:10:07 <zzo38> OK I will try to write down
04:39:36 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GY41O4cmlEM
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04:52:58 <ais523> alercah: there's a list of books that contain the rules of Eleusis here: http://www.logicmazes.com/games/eleusis/eleusis2.html
04:53:10 <ais523> unfortunately it doesn't contain the rules themselves, just a pointer to them
04:53:19 <ais523> you might want to see if any of the books are in a local library
05:05:03 <zzo38> I did start writing the rules.
05:05:07 <zzo38> I will post a link once I have done so.
05:14:28 <shachaf> ais523: Hmm, I think the wisdom database is like the quotes file, except it's for when people think they're being funny, rather than when other people think they're funny.
05:14:47 <shachaf> (Funny or some other property.)
05:14:53 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/gamerules/eleusis This file can also be access by gopher with the same selector (except the initial slash).
05:15:02 <shachaf> That would explain the quality difference.
05:15:11 <shachaf> Wisdom entries should be peer-reviewed.
05:15:14 <zzo38> alercah: Is this good?
05:15:47 <alercah> zzo38: I will have to review tomorrow or thursday
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05:20:05 <ais523> `addquote <shachaf> ais523: Hmm, I think the wisdom database is like the quotes file, except it's for when people think they're being funny, rather than when other people think they're funny.
05:20:16 <HackEgo> 1298) <shachaf> ais523: Hmm, I think the wisdom database is like the quotes file, except it's for when people think they're being funny, rather than when other people think they're funny.
05:20:18 <HackEgo> farrioth: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
05:20:47 <ais523> shachaf: fwiw I added that because I thought it was insightful, rather than because I thought it was funny
05:21:03 <shachaf> Right. But you added it without the clarification.
05:21:18 <shachaf> I only said funny because I think that's what most wisdom entries are trying to be.
05:21:39 <zzo38> I did not add any sentence from the book; I wrote the rules by myself!
05:22:39 <zzo38> (However, anyone else who knows the rules can tell me if I wrote anything wrong.)
05:22:42 <ais523> oh, for some reason I missed the clarification, probably because it was between a ping and a URL
05:22:59 <ais523> although it probably works better without when seen from the quotees database
05:39:38 <hppavilion[1]> Some parents assert their right to send their kid to school without vaccinating them.
05:39:52 <hppavilion[1]> Some argue that if they homeschool the kid, it's OK.
05:40:09 <shachaf> ais523: I thinkt he clarification was awkwardly phrased.
05:40:20 <hppavilion[1]> You vaccinate your fucking kid or your parenthood is revoked.
05:41:52 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: ...what's the joke, adopted- oh, I get it.
05:43:40 <ais523> `! c printf("%d", (int)(unsigned char)('.'-96));
05:44:06 <zzo38> Would you like the role playing system where the magic subsystem is including mathematical category theory and abstract algebra, the ability to both add and multiply different colours of mana, interactions between multiple spells prepared at once, and so on?
05:44:07 <ais523> `! c printf("%d", (int)(unsigned char)('.'-96-128));
05:44:26 <ais523> in general I prefer my role playing systems to have simpler rules
05:44:43 <zzo38> What system do you prefer then?
05:44:54 <shachaf> I think you might be able to have a system with simple rules that satisfies zzo38's description.
05:45:30 <zzo38> Different color of mana is similar to that of Magic: the Gathering.
05:45:37 <shachaf> But the magma system is pretty important.
05:45:37 <ais523> zzo38: I was reading a few games of Roll to Dodge recently
05:45:46 <ais523> it is about the simplest possible roleplaying system that has an action resolution method
05:45:47 <shachaf> The one in Magic: The Gathering is way too complicated.
05:46:18 <ais523> the rules are: you declare your action, then roll a d6; if it comes up as a 5 the action worked
05:46:44 <zzo38> (And you can specialize in as many colours of magic as you want, in whatever proportion you want; you can have 100% red and no others if you want, but that means less versatility.)
05:46:45 <farrioth> Some of the best roleplaying I've done was when we were camping and wanted to play D&D but could only find one D6, so came up with some simplified rules.
05:46:51 <ais523> 1-4 are various strengths of failure or working imperfectly (the details vary from game to game, but generally 1 is a complete failure / reverse of what you intended, 4 is a partial or mostly success)
05:47:13 <farrioth> It was actually quite similar to what ais523 just described.
05:47:19 <ais523> if the dice is a 6 then the action fails in the other direction, i.e. fails to produce the intended effect because it produced a larger one
05:47:58 <ais523> it is, in general, not a system that's very suited to serious games
05:48:11 <ais523> it's more for frivolous games
05:48:22 <zzo38> I don't like that system very much it does not make much sense to me. It is simple, but simple is no good if it is wrong.
05:48:23 <ais523> because it has the obvious problem that all actions are equally likely to succeed
05:48:40 <zzo38> Yes, that is one of the problems.
05:49:41 <ais523> I think it could be improved by doing something along the lines of "a 5 causes the action to succeed to the greatest extent that would be reasonably possible; a 3 causes the action to succeed to the extent that would be typically expected under normal circumstances; etc."
05:49:49 <farrioth> In the system I used, characters had modifiers (+/- 1 or 2 or so) for various traits, and the modifier for the relevant trait was added to the roll for the skill.
05:50:03 <ais523> a +1 modifier is very large in a d6 system
05:50:19 <zzo38> Dungeons&Dragons uses 1d20 to check for success, while GURPS uses 3d6; these result in different distributions.
05:50:22 <farrioth> It suited the slightly silly nature of the campaign, though.
05:50:40 <farrioth> Actually; did we use nD6 where n > 1? I think we did.
05:50:49 <ais523> anyway, I'm currently trying to write a quine in a rather restricted programming language (not my CALESYTA language, a different one)
05:51:26 <zzo38> ais523: In what programming language? Is it currently a secret until you write a quine?
05:51:39 <ais523> and am coming across the problem of "how do I figure out how to stop writing the 'outside' program and start writing the escaped representation of the data"?
05:51:45 <ais523> zzo38: it's called Verity, it isn't very well known
05:51:54 <ais523> I assumed nobody would know the language so specifying it wouldn't help
05:52:52 <ais523> ooh, I know what I got wrong here
05:53:11 <ais523> I forgot to swap the octal digits of each number
05:53:46 <ais523> (I'm storing the data in octal, using a 6-byte character set; the output is in ASCII but I'm using only 64 distinct characters and transcoding in order to make the data storage shorter)
05:54:05 <shachaf> Oh, I think I heard of Verity.
05:54:06 <shachaf> http://www.veritygos.org/language ?
05:54:17 <shachaf> I'm not sure where I heard about it. Maybe it was here.
05:55:44 <ais523> and probably here, because I was hired to work on it
05:56:17 <ais523> it's crazily hard to come up with a character that isn't naturally used all over the program and won't break the program when added
05:57:55 <zzo38> I have written a quine in SQL, in BASIC, and in FurryScript, as well as some others. I have invented FurryScript and some other programming languages for specific use, such as OAA, TAVERN, INQUIZ, etc, although I have not attempted to write a quine in any of those. (I doubt a quine is possible in INQUIZ anyways; it is too restrictive.)
05:58:28 <ais523> ooh, I think I can use unary minus
05:58:36 <ais523> I tried it before but it didn't work
05:58:39 <ais523> and now I can make it work
05:58:50 <ais523> `! c printf("%d", '-');
05:59:03 <ais523> yes, that's in my character set
06:04:06 <ais523> `! c printf("%o", '-');
06:04:38 <zzo38> O, that is what you are trying to do.
06:06:30 <ais523> oh wow, is that a silly parsing behaviour
06:06:44 <ais523> Verity parses (-a-b-c) as (-(a-b-c))
06:06:53 <ais523> which is correct given the way unary minus is defined to work
06:06:55 <ais523> but really unintuitive
06:07:53 <tswett> Fun fact. In Minnesota, it's illegal to dump or deposit snow on the road.
06:07:54 <tswett> https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=169.42
06:08:31 <Ox0dea> That's a lovely piece of esoterica.
06:13:51 <ais523> `! c printf("%d", '|');
06:14:21 <ais523> `! c printf("%c", 92);
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07:14:27 <shachaf> copumpkin: Did you ever see mauke's sizeof.c C puzzler?
07:24:03 <shachaf> copumpkin: https://gist.github.com/ivant/1454460
07:29:08 <Ox0dea> I think this one's a little more interesting, honestly: https://eval.in/678550
07:29:32 <Ox0dea> I suppose they both demonstrate the same two "quirks".
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08:17:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50243&oldid=50235 * Slnetaiga * (+23) Added EntropyAssembler
08:22:16 <farrioth> I should really write some Funge-98 some time. I've only written things in Befunge-93 up until now.
08:29:25 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: madam president, you will see that not all our recommendations have been tabled, it will be no unanimity within the council.
08:29:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50244 * Slnetaiga * (+796) Created page with "'''EntropyAssembler''', is an esoteric programming language with syntax like assembler, but datas in registers decays while programm runs(like in [[Entropy]]). == Examples ==..."
08:29:57 <hppavilion[1]> Sorry, fungot, but Trump won the presidency. Not Hillary.
08:29:58 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: mrs banotti, so ensuring that we will be able to line their pockets nicely, which is as useful as possible, complemented by the euro-mediterranean ministerial conference on drugs policy in europe is prepared to improve its resources for mobilisation, monitoring and prevention.
08:30:10 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
08:30:44 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: madam president, i am glad that you are only partially responsible for what, according to information available to us, and we use no more than 2% of the european peoples' party, i have here the text of the regulation on leghold traps will never finish. we are a long way to go, because, of course, there was a lot of the educational facilities and so on; that indigenous culture will be promoted and protected. the c
08:31:10 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
08:31:16 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: " beauty is truth truth beauty" that is all. if my sanity is still fnord, i later met and fnord and stumbles to bring it to you. do the same. fnord acid and even aqua fnord merely hissed and spattered against its torrid fnord. ammi had difficulty in recalling all these things began to acquire a dark and
08:32:10 <farrioth> hppavilion[1]: Wait, a bot in funge-98?
08:32:38 <farrioth> hppavilion[1]: Whoever is responsible for that impresses me.
08:32:49 <farrioth> hppavilion[1]: Is the source code available?
08:32:57 <hppavilion[1]> farrioth: fizzie. Either autistic, a genius, or just a very boring person
08:33:19 <hppavilion[1]> farrioth: I think there are at least partial implementations in other languages too
08:35:08 <farrioth> hppavilion[1]: I shall check it out.
08:36:57 <shachaf> i feel like that is maybe not an appropriate thing to say here
08:37:03 <shachaf> but maybe i'm missing some context
08:38:16 <shachaf> i'll let what's-his-name say, i guess
08:38:21 <Ox0dea> shachaf: This is the internet, sugarplum.
08:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> (the small levenshtein distance to "fag" there was entirely unintentional)
08:39:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50245&oldid=50244 * Slnetaiga * (+1083)
08:39:07 <Ox0dea> hppavilion[1]: Please do your part to maintain the safety of this space.
08:39:19 <shachaf> please do your part to go away
08:39:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50246&oldid=50245 * Slnetaiga * (-2)
08:39:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50247&oldid=50246 * Slnetaiga * (+1)
08:39:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EntropyAssembler]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50248&oldid=50247 * Slnetaiga * (-3)
08:40:05 <Ox0dea> You initially caught shachaf's ire for "accusing" someone of potentially being autistic.
08:40:35 <farrioth> hppavilion[1]: rofl re levenshtein distance
08:41:03 <shachaf> that is not exactly an accurate characterization
08:41:12 <Ox0dea> I'm sure it's very close.
08:41:24 <farrioth> You're not exactly an accurate characterization.
08:42:47 <hppavilion[1]> Not even XML, it's just that the parts used so far just happen to have looked like XML
08:47:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Slnetaiga]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50249&oldid=50165 * Slnetaiga * (+23)
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09:20:40 <b_jonas> FIRST SNOW OF THE YEAR TODAY!
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09:24:37 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: We already have trucks sliding down driveways into the road
09:24:57 <HackEgo> lambdabot: @@ @@ (@where weather) CYUL ENVA ESSB KOAK PAMR
09:25:01 <lambdabot> CYUL 160900Z 03012KT 6SM -DZ BR BKN005 BKN012 OVC020 06/05 A2973 RMK SF6SF1SC1 SLP070 \ ENVA 160850Z 11010KT CAVOK 07/M01 Q0994 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15016KT \ ESSB 160920Z VRB03KT CAVOK 00/00 Q1007
09:25:01 <lambdabot> R30/29//68 \ KOAK 160853Z 29011KT 10SM FEW008 14/09 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP194 T01390089 56002 \ PAMR 160853Z 08003KT 10SM SCT055 SCT130 M05/M08 A3008 RMK SLP187 T10501078 400221050 51023 $ VIA AUTODIAL
09:25:15 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, trucks sliding is easy, they can do that if it rains, because they use bad tires
09:25:22 <b_jonas> we don't need snow for that
09:25:48 <hppavilion[1]> I have attached Zork I to my taskbar for fast launching :D
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09:26:50 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and apparently, Gellato is made by extracting it directly from Satan's testicles
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09:37:45 <lambdabot> EGLL 160920Z AUTO 26013KT 9999 NCD 12/09 Q1016 NOSIG
09:39:24 <lambdabot> LLBG 160920Z 27014KT 9999 SCT040 23/12 Q1015 NOSIG
09:39:33 <lambdabot> KSJC 160853Z AUTO 28011KT 10SM SCT022 14/09 A3011 RMK AO2 SLP194 T01390094 56002
09:41:59 <FireFly> which is still warmer than here
09:42:10 <FireFly> though well, I guess 0/0 is indeterminate
09:43:07 <lambdabot> ESSB 160920Z VRB03KT CAVOK 00/00 Q1007 R30/29//68
09:43:27 <lambdabot> ENSB 160920Z 12014KT 9999 FEW022 SCT030 BKN200 03/M01 Q0975 NOSIG RMK WIND 1400FT 09020KT
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10:10:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Incident]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50250 * B jonas * (+219) Created page with "'''Incident''' is a language [[User:ais523]] has created. For information, see the darcs repository at http://nethack4.org/esolangs/calesyta-2016 (not accessible through HTTP..."
10:12:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Incident]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50251&oldid=50250 * B jonas * (+25)
10:13:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50252&oldid=47204 * B jonas * (+14)
10:14:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50253&oldid=50243 * B jonas * (+15)
10:17:37 <b_jonas> @tell ais523 Note that the earlier esolang Ellipsis uses ".." as the recommended file extension, so so the "...." extension you use for Incident can clash
10:21:14 <FireFly> …it was a response to shachaf's 23/12
10:21:36 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I saw context, it just didn't make sense there either
10:22:27 <shachaf> FireFly: swan lake is p. good huh
10:22:35 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: I guess our opinion is divided on the matter
10:23:08 <HackEgo> 997) <fizzie> "May you live in INVISIBLE TIMES." --Old Chinese proverb. (It can look confusing when written with the proper Unicode.)
10:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: And my pun should at least be acknowledged ;-;
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10:23:19 <HackEgo> 756) <itidus21> i have a simple view of reality that goes something like this.. once your sufficiently well tied up.. it doesn't make a difference if your enemy has a knife or a gun.. you're equally screwed
10:23:26 <FireFly> shachaf: I don't know, is it?
10:23:33 <HackEgo> 989) <zzo38> My opinion is that you are all wrong, as far as I can tell.
10:23:39 <HackEgo> 1072) <Phantom_Hoover> my emergency contacts list somehow has my father listed in both slots, in one of them as my daughter
10:24:27 <HackEgo> 593) <oerjan> elliott: it occurs to me that `? welcome is atypical: its information is actually true.
10:24:32 <shachaf> Then you should listen to it, and then you'll know that it's good.
10:25:07 <shachaf> If you don't trust ballet, you could play the game Loom, I guess.
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13:40:52 <b_jonas> @tell oerjan For a two-command generator of underload, isn't there already a less efficient solution: using ^ and (U) where U is a generator of ski-combinator calculus? It is well-known that the latter exists, and you can translate it to an underload term.
13:53:16 <ski> shachaf : hm, last slide reminds me of "Category Theory and Concrete Universals" by David P. Ellerman in 1998-05 at <http://www.ellerman.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Erkenntnis-Concrete-Universals.CV_.pdf> ..
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14:15:06 <b_jonas> Instead of that crazy complicated rule 305.7 for the Spreading Seas ability, shouldn't they have made a rule that makes that effect an ordinary copy effect that copies from the Island card?
14:15:31 <b_jonas> I know it's not the same when it interacts with some more tricky effects, but it wouldn't be that much of a change, and it would simplify the rules a lot.
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14:58:54 <b_jonas> do you guys think that hexadecimal digits should be written in lowercase? C accepts either lowercase or uppercase. many people prefer lowercase. but TeX and dc accept only uppercase. I used to prefer lowercase because they're easier to distinguish from the digits, but these days I'm conflicted.
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15:06:00 <lambdabot> b_jonas said 1h 25m 7s ago: For a two-command generator of underload, isn't there already a less efficient solution: using ^ and (U) where U is a generator of ski-combinator calculus? It is well-
15:06:00 <lambdabot> known that the latter exists, and you can translate it to an underload term.
15:06:27 <oerjan> b_jonas: yeah theoretically it was fairly obvious.
15:08:06 * ski would usually prefer lower case
15:15:16 <oerjan> @tell Zarutian Please don't modify HackEgo in private twh
15:15:28 <oerjan> fizzie: also, HackEgo seems to be gone
15:15:53 <oerjan> or rather, floating in the inter-channel void
15:16:37 <oerjan> (why does it do that :( )
15:16:47 * ski (started with and) mostly used hexadecimal on 6502 and 680x0, though
15:18:11 * oerjan learns that his conclusion that ski was responding to the @message was incorrect
15:19:16 <oerjan> `` dowg | grep Zarutian
15:19:53 <oerjan> his additions aren't bad enough for me to revert them myself.
15:24:00 <oerjan> Gregor: you seem to be confusing this channel with ZenMud tdnh
15:24:38 <oerjan> (i guess that no longer exists.)
15:33:00 -!- oerjan has set topic: The international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive pizza testing, use #esoteric-blah.
15:33:31 <oerjan> this seemed like a good time to complete the cycle
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15:47:44 * oerjan tries rotating his laptop to read today
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15:47:55 * oerjan tries rotating his laptop to read today's girl genius. it's still awkward.
15:51:53 * oerjan saves it so it can open it in another program
16:02:18 <oerjan> apparently the standard image viewer in windows is more annoying to view this in than MS paint.
16:02:58 <oerjan> (it hides parts with menus etc.)
16:02:58 <ski> oh, "Girl Genius"
16:03:18 <oerjan> ... what part was confusing you? :P
16:03:54 <ski> hm, no part ?
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16:12:59 <b_jonas> ais523: this is an interesting esolang you submitted, I'll have to think more about it
16:13:24 <ais523> I'd like to write a compiler into it at some point, I think
16:13:33 <ais523> maybe from PMMN or from some sort of asm
16:13:47 <ais523> (I already wrote a program to bruteforce command separators)
16:14:25 <b_jonas> The tokenizer rules look like there must be a good solution for a writer algorithm, possibly randomized, but I couldn't prove that yet. I'll try to prove it later.
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16:15:36 <b_jonas> I created a stub entry on the esowiki, but since I don't really understand how the language works at all currently, I didn't write a description.
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16:22:44 <\oren\> idea: MatrixLang, a programming language that only uses numbers and halfwidth katakana
16:23:11 <ais523> normally syntax is a fairly irrelevant part of a language
16:23:23 <ais523> Incident seems to be an exception, and the reason is that it makes things difficult that are normally trivial
16:23:27 <\oren\> and maybe propagates downward instead of rightward
16:24:03 <\oren\> idea is that "tracing" the code would look at least somewhat like the matrix code stuff
16:24:14 <b_jonas> ais523: no, even in Incident it seems like the syntax and the semantics are quite separate
16:25:01 <b_jonas> I don't think they're very much tied together
16:25:18 <b_jonas> sure, there's some ties, like how the syntax guarantees that there's exactly three of each token
16:25:46 <b_jonas> but still, it looks like for interpreting the language or for producing programs, you have to solve the problem of the tokenizing/detokenizing and the problem of the semantics separately
16:25:57 <b_jonas> you could replace one part and still recognize the other part
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16:26:23 <b_jonas> in this respect it doesn't differ much from a lot of languages that have separate token syntax from semantics
16:30:05 <ais523> yes, they're not really tied to each other (although the semantics were inspired by the syntax, and to some extent vice versa)
16:30:09 <ais523> but the syntax is interesting in its own right
16:32:25 <b_jonas> right, that's why I'll try to solve the syntax separately
16:32:54 <b_jonas> also because I have the impression you already solve the semantics mostly, though that shouldn't really stop me
16:33:12 <ais523> there are some connections between the syntax and the semantics
16:33:22 <ais523> e.g. sometimes you have to add extra "goto statements" to get things in the right order
16:33:56 <ais523> but a goto isn't 100% reliable because of the trivial infinite loop detector, it can break a loop at your goto, even if without the goto it'd have broken the loop somewhere else
16:35:48 <b_jonas> "sometimes you have to add extra "goto statements" to get things in the right order" => um, wait, do you mean add a goto so that the three instances of an instruction are in the right order (which is not part of the tokenizing syntax the way I split it), or add goto so you can write down the token sequence (which I don't think should happen, unless you want to add like specific comments or polyglot stuff)
16:36:03 <b_jonas> \ right order (which is not part of the tokenizing syntax the way I split it), or add goto so you can write down the token sequence (which I don't think should happen, unless you want to add like specific comments or polyglot stuff)
16:37:22 <ais523> b_jonas: to get the three incidences into the right order
16:37:59 <ais523> the fact that the first, second, and third incidences of a command do different things is more a syntax thing than a semantics thing IMO, although I can certainly see it as semantics
16:39:29 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, the part I split and want to solve is the tokenizer syntax, which is where you want to go between a list of instructions (such that every instruction appears exactly three times) and the source code.
16:39:58 <b_jonas> yes, it's not really syntax vs semantics, but more like lexer vs (parser and semantics)
16:40:27 <b_jonas> I'm splitting only the lexer
16:41:02 <b_jonas> I think you can split that way, because the order of the three instructions is present in the list of instructions
16:41:46 <b_jonas> (and by the way, the anchor command is also in the list of instructions)
16:41:52 <ais523> actually that's a good way to think about it
16:41:59 <ais523> the problem of the lexer and the problem of the parser are different
16:42:47 <b_jonas> sure. but many languages work like that, only in some languages some of the parts are very simple so there's nothing to solve.
16:44:21 <ais523> yes, the difference here is not that you need to worry about how the program lexes (that's common, and particularly relevant in golfing), it's that "unlexing" a program is much harder than it normally is
16:44:30 <ais523> the problem's existence isn't unusual, its difficulty is
16:45:09 <b_jonas> for normal non-eso languages, you could in theory make both the lexer and the recursive parser easy, but people don't do that because they want the code to be shorter or look like some other code.
16:46:02 <b_jonas> so even in onn-eso languages sometimes there are some difficulties in the syntax, like strange ambiguities that can bite programmers (running into some form of the statement vs declaration ambiguity is a rite of passage for C++ programmers)
16:47:02 <b_jonas> perl and ruby has uglier lexer ambiguities too, as well as parser ambiguities
16:47:18 <b_jonas> and often the two interact in ugly ways (they do interact a little bit in C++ too, but not much)
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17:12:31 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I don't know hth
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18:07:26 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( What are proof ordinals? Are there setups [which are whatever-proof-ordinals-describe] with finite proof ordinals? )
18:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> it's the smallest ordinal that the proof system can't describe
18:25:34 <hppavilion[1]> In classical english (possibly still UK English), were the words "check" and "cheque" different with "cheque" merged, or were they both "cheque" and they both became "check"?
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18:27:31 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], in UK English, check and cheque are different words
18:27:56 <Taneb> But I would not be surprised if they came from the same root
18:28:05 <Taneb> With cheque being a later borrowing from French
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19:36:22 <izalove> https://blog.google/products/translate/found-translation-more-accurate-fluent-sentences-google-translate/
19:36:26 <izalove> Today we’re putting Neural Machine Translation into action with a total of eight language pairs to and from English and French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Chinese, Japanese, Korean and Turkish. These represent the native languages of around one-third of the world's population, covering more than 35% of all Google Translate queries!
19:36:38 <izalove> 35% is lower than i thought
19:40:13 <alercah> I would speculate a lot of the use of Google Translate is English -> your less common language
19:40:20 <alercah> smaller european countries, etc.
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21:40:14 <\oren\> Dwayne Johnson is plotting a run for president
21:41:40 <pikhq> I'd prefer Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho run.
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22:29:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ktoc: not found
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22:33:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mitokm: not found
22:33:53 <int-e> `` units 0tempK tempC
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22:36:11 <\oren\> why is there a reversed I there?
22:36:51 <\oren\> or, alternatively, why isn't it displayed as a tab?
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22:37:04 <int-e> because irssi has different ideas
22:37:15 <\oren\> is tab verboten by irc somehow
22:37:21 <int-e> (also, variable nickname widths mean that tabs have only limited use)
22:38:30 <int-e> well, imagine someone just putting 450 tab characters in a message... that would be almost enough to clear a 80x24 screen.
22:38:54 <int-e> but I'm guessing... no clue what reason the irssi authors had.
22:41:54 <myname> should i go to a local haskell user group?
22:43:32 <\oren\> I think I will modify tcc to add the features I want
22:44:55 <int-e> \oren\: and of course there's https://github.com/shabble/irssi-scripts/blob/master/tab_stop/tab_stop.pl
22:48:41 <\oren\> imagine an extended C with hundreds of operators at over 50 precedence levels
22:49:36 <wob_jonas> \oren\: make sure to add built-in min and max operators among the hundred!
22:49:37 <\oren\> many standard functions replaced with crazy expletives like $%+!
22:50:00 <wob_jonas> (and also to keep the original operators of C)
22:52:17 <\oren\> >: will be the min operator, <: the max
22:52:55 <\oren\> e.g. a >:= b means, set a to b if b is smaller than a
22:52:56 <wob_jonas> \oren\: I don't think that works. <: is already used, and >: can conflict with existing combination of tokens
22:53:16 <wob_jonas> \oren\: it's not so easy to find nice looking combinations of punctuation that won't break existing code
22:55:37 <wob_jonas> I'm not sure. I think <| is more or less safe, but might conflict with that possible future C++ language extension where | is a prefix operator like * and &
22:56:01 <\oren\> so long as it doesn't conflict with C
22:56:21 <wob_jonas> it probably doesn't conflict with C
22:56:59 <wob_jonas> I'm a C++ person really, I don't like C++ extensions that trample on C features, and C extensions that trample on C++ features
22:57:58 <wob_jonas> there are a few cases where the C and the C++ feature appeared roughly in the same time and conflict, and that was back in ancient times before fast communications on the internet, so you can't really fault either side: these include the double uses of clog and remove in the library.
22:58:15 <wob_jonas> but there are a few cases when clearly one side is at fault for doing something that conflicts with the other side
22:58:59 <alercah> and usually the C++ committee picked the better thing
22:59:04 <\oren\> also, ~| and ~& as binary nor and nand
22:59:53 <\oren\> !&& and !|| as logical nor and nand
23:00:18 <\oren\> not to be confused with !!| or |!|
23:00:28 <wob_jonas> in many cases, I don't like how the C++ committee won't take the good features from C, or take them very late. this is about C complexes the most importantly. complex numbers really should be a built-in language feature, not a library thing.
23:02:22 <wob_jonas> one case where I definitely fault the C++ committee is the naming of the identifiers in the <atomic> header. they took the design of atomic variables from C, which is a good thing, but they assigned them identifiers that conflict with the C use, which sucks, because now you can't easily use those identifiers in C headers that may be included from C
23:02:26 <\oren\> What I really need is a tool to figure out what combinations remain undefined in the lexer table
23:03:25 <wob_jonas> \oren\: that's not so simple, because there are combinations that are impossible because of the grammar
23:03:35 <myname> why not quaternions or hyperreals or all kinds of binarys trees and fibonacci heaps for built-in features?
23:04:12 <\oren\> myname: I think strings should eb built in
23:04:30 <wob_jonas> myname: complexes can be optimized in useful ways if the compiler knows about them
23:04:49 <alercah> wob_jonas: iirc there was work underway to make the atomics compatible?
23:04:50 <myname> so can he with a library
23:04:54 <alercah> wob_jonas: that's true of libraries too
23:05:45 <wob_jonas> and the behavior of complexes can depend on those floating point compilation option switch thingies, which further makes it easier to implement it as optimized builtins than as library stuff
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23:06:12 <alercah> wob_jonas: again, no reason a library can't do that
23:06:15 <wob_jonas> of course, you could still have complexes as a library feature, since even then the library could use compiler-specific knowledge and intrinsics
23:06:26 <wob_jonas> I don't really know of good reasons
23:06:28 <alercah> the standard only requires that the interface exposed be that of a library
23:06:32 <myname> i would rather have the compiler asking the öibrary on optimization methods than moving random stuff into the core
23:06:37 <wob_jonas> I just feel like complexes would be nicer as built-in
23:06:41 <alercah> nothing requires the stdlib to actually be written as source
23:06:46 <wob_jonas> I admit my reasons for it aren't sound
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23:07:01 <alercah> IIRC clang has a number of optimizations for std types
23:07:24 <alercah> why not move io into primitives, since they depend on syscalls?
23:07:25 <wob_jonas> alercah: sure, and gcc has library stuff too that essentially just calls a built-in
23:07:31 <alercah> or strings, since they're so important
23:07:38 <wob_jonas> alercah: gcc does know about some io primitives
23:07:59 <alercah> wob_jonas: right, many standard libraries refer back to compiler intrinsics
23:08:04 <alercah> but they don't even need to do that
23:08:34 <alercah> there is no reason, from a standard perspective, that the standard types themselves couldn't be built-in
23:08:47 <wob_jonas> as for strings, obviously the compiler knows a lot about some of the loops that are used for strings a lot, and all forms of memcpy and memmove, both library calls and various loops and expanded form. copying comes up so much that the compiler must optimize it well.
23:09:25 <wob_jonas> but declaring them in the library makes the library implementation more readable to humans
23:09:31 <wob_jonas> so in non-eso compilers it makes sense
23:09:43 <alercah> which seems like an argument in favour of libraries in general and against moving things to core :)
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23:11:03 <wob_jonas> also apparently some developers are very fond of these crazy ides that try to parse code as you type and give you all sorts of intrusive completion tips and error messages and red squiggle underlines and lightbulbs in the middle of each word you type,
23:11:17 <wob_jonas> so having each identifier declared in library headers would help those ides
23:11:30 <wob_jonas> they could be very useful if used sanely
23:11:32 <alercah> no that wouldn't help at all
23:11:36 <zzo38> I don't use that kind of things though
23:11:38 <wob_jonas> not the way SOME of my coworkers use them
23:11:41 <alercah> such editors need compiler support for C++
23:12:00 <alercah> (or else they need to reimplement a *significant* part of the C++ semantic analysis
23:12:16 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I have a hypothetical M:tG templating question for you
23:12:35 <wob_jonas> alercah: not reimplement as such, just use part of an existing implementation
23:12:59 <alercah> wob_jonas: but if you're using the compiler to do that analysis
23:13:09 <alercah> then it would know the standard types
23:13:26 <alercah> the only time it wouldn't is if you were using a separate compiler for your IDE and for your compilation
23:13:30 <alercah> which is a bad idea for many reasons
23:13:52 <alercah> and in any case wouldn't work with the same stdlib
23:13:54 <wob_jonas> zzo38: Instead of that crazy complicated rule 305.7 for the Spreading Seas ability, shouldn't they have made a rule that makes that effect an ordinary copy effect that copies from the Island card?
23:13:59 <wob_jonas> I know it's not the same when it interacts with some more tricky effects, but it wouldn't be that much of a change, and it would simplify the rules a lot.
23:14:07 <wob_jonas> I wonder what your idea is about that alternate rule.
23:16:59 <zzo38> I do think rule 305.7 is certainly a bit klugy. A copy effect that copies from the Island card it seems won't work though
23:17:43 <zzo38> However, there does not seem a better way than the current rule 305.7 without making the card text too complicated
23:18:08 <zzo38> wob_jonas: There is not anything for it to copy.
23:20:13 <wob_jonas> I don't think that's a problem. If you don't want to imagine it as a copy effect, then imagine it as some similar effect that overwrites all the copyable values and base characteristics of the card, like those rules about face down permanents being 2/2 creatures with no other characteristics, or those about which part of split/flip/double-sided obj
23:21:00 <wob_jonas> The point is, the effect should overwrite all the characteristics of the card, and all at the same layer, leaving nothing of the original at that point, rather than being a hodge-podge of effects that apply in various layers and on various parts of the characteristics inconsistently.
23:21:46 <wob_jonas> It already tries to act on the abilities of the card at such an early point, to remove only certain abilities that were printed on it.
23:25:35 <wob_jonas> Mind you, I do think it could be a real copy effect.
23:26:15 <wob_jonas> There are already effects that turn a permanent to a copy of an exiled card; and there are effects that examine the characteristics of a card outside the game, and there are rules for what those characteristics are;
23:27:24 <wob_jonas> so you only need a little patch to allow the rules to examine pristine copies of some Island outside the game that the players don't even own, like some particular Island card exhibited in the gatherer or something.
23:28:09 <zzo38> O, yes it could do that; the text of a default Island is simple: its name is Island, its type is land, its subtype is Island, and its other text is blank.
23:28:45 <zzo38> (O, and its supertype is basic.)
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23:29:37 <wob_jonas> You'd need this for all five plain basic lands, not only Island, but still
23:29:55 <zzo38> Yes, although that is still simple; only its names and subtypes differ.
23:30:01 <shachaf> Aren't there 11 basic lands?
23:30:15 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, but only five are the "conventional basic lands".
23:30:15 <wob_jonas> the comp rules basically already know about those five cards: it mentions them explicitly for limited deck construction rules
23:30:29 <wob_jonas> it doesn't specifically list their oracle values, but so what
23:30:35 <wob_jonas> the oracle is needed for the rules anyway
23:31:09 <zzo38> ("Conventional" is the term I made up myself for these five basic lands, since there does not seem to be another word for them.)
23:31:41 <wob_jonas> still, if a literal copy effect is inconvenient for some reason, you could use some other phrasing that acts at that low layer, like the ones used for morph objects etc
23:31:43 <zzo38> wob_jonas: As far as I am concerned they should be separate since not all cards are necessarily legal in all formats, and some people may play unofficial formats with custom cards.
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23:33:17 <zzo38> Also, it seems that for some reason they don't do static copy effects; Volrath's Shapeshifter used to be but they changed it into a static text-changing effect.
23:34:29 <wob_jonas> zzo38: oh indeed, they changed the rules for Primal Clay too, and that's for the good
23:34:51 <wob_jonas> but they still have those effects for morph, split cards, flip cards, and double-faced cards
23:35:39 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Those are the initial text of the object due to the object's status.
23:35:51 <zzo38> (And copies can also be modified by the copy's status.)
23:36:00 <wob_jonas> yes, and they are templates for when you copy from those objects
23:37:03 <wob_jonas> and mind you, those rules are quite tricky, because some of them act differently on the stack, on tb, and elsewhere (plus there's special rules for cmc and color-identity but that probably doesn't matter)
23:37:19 <wob_jonas> I don't really understand how all the zone rules work
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23:37:25 <zzo38> So, I would think, the status of an object affects which of an object's initial texts applies to it.
23:37:42 <zzo38> Only permanents have status though, although any object can be face-down.
23:39:29 <zzo38> However, regardless of whether it worked as a copy effect or how it does now (as a type-changing effect), I still think perhaps an improvement could be made: saying it becomes a "normal Island" shall remove its rules text.
23:39:40 <wob_jonas> yes... well, technically I think only objects otb, in exile, and on stack can be face up or face down; objects in gy are always revealed and objects in hand or library or sideboard are always hidden, and hidden means they don't have properties, except momentarily when they're revealed
23:40:31 <zzo38> Actually, I think not quite; a card can be temporarily face-down while in a player's hand, and it lacks characteristics at that time. See rule 120.8.
23:40:52 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I don't know what the templating should be. I think they should just have been printed with reminder text so you don't forget that rule: that's viable because most such cards have short enough text box that the reminder text usually fits.
23:41:34 <zzo38> I think less klugy rules make more sense, and then just adding the word "normal" to mean what the rules currently mean.
23:41:42 <wob_jonas> oh... right. I'm not sure if that counts as face down, or just hidden from even the player, but probably doesn't matter
23:42:10 <zzo38> Also, objects in the command zone can be face down.
23:42:44 <wob_jonas> heck, Sea's Claim should be printed without the reminder text for "enchant" and then you can fit two more lines of whatever templating or reminder you want
23:42:53 <wob_jonas> or even three if you reduce the size of text
23:43:09 <wob_jonas> oh yes... you're right, I forgot about the command zone
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23:43:28 <wob_jonas> conspiracies and planes and schemes can be face up or face down
23:43:38 <zzo38> But it does say "while face down, it's considered to have no characteristics"; therefore http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.7 (the rule was not numbered 120.8 at that time, although the rule still work in the same way)
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23:44:23 <wob_jonas> Spreading Seas have a bit more rules text, but still you could fit something on it
23:44:57 <zzo38> I think they should normally to omit the reminder text it is not needed
23:45:00 <wob_jonas> so you say "is a normal island"... let me think
23:45:18 <zzo38> (unless the text is especially confusing, in which case it can help. But usually the text is not confusing if you know the rules)
23:45:42 <wob_jonas> does "Enchanted land is a normal island." fit in one line with the largest font size used? I think it just barely fits.
23:46:30 <zzo38> On both of those two cards you mentioned it seems like it might fit
23:47:01 <zzo38> (Although, you can change it to Mountain if you want to for this test, since "Mountain" is a longer word than "Island".)
23:47:12 <wob_jonas> zzo38: how would you template cards like Tideshaper Mystic then?
23:47:47 <zzo38> "... becomes a normal land of the basic land type of ..."
23:48:24 <zzo38> Perhaps "... becomes normal and that type ..."
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