00:00:11 <boily> shachaf: I think I can manage...
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00:55:10 <oerjan> @tell rdococ <rdococ> if you remove one stack then it would be FSA, right? like a turing machine that can only move right? <-- no, DPDA hth
01:03:26 <int-e> how do I build a cover story for that... my stupid twin is visiting and hijacked my keyboard?
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01:15:21 <oerjan> `learn twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. he sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense.
01:15:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'twint-e': twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. he sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense.
01:15:50 <oerjan> `slwd twint-e//s/he/He/
01:15:54 <HackEgo> twint-e//twint-e is int-e's stupid twin. He sometimes hijacks int-e's keyboard and spouts nonsense.
01:19:26 <fizzie> Huh, fungot's been up and running since sometime last November without having to had to rejigger it.
01:19:26 <fungot> fizzie: well he should keep quiet! things are very closely linked to the implementation of this action on the part of the investment allocated to transport, to replace other forms of trafficking, which destroys so many lives.
01:20:17 <fizzie> Sounds like someone's been unruly at the europarl.
01:20:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:21:01 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
01:21:17 <int-e> fungot: does this work?
01:21:17 <fungot> int-e: resolved, no person may use them to be
01:21:26 <int-e> fungot: not very well, eh?
01:21:27 <fungot> int-e: the notary and the most recent date on which each player's orientation.) in the following are generally true of all
01:21:32 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
01:21:54 <fizzie> "(Heckling) Calm down, young man, you will have every right to shout afterwards. Or go and have some breakfast, and come back when you have calmed down..."
01:22:18 <fizzie> Seems like a spirited session.
01:22:28 <fungot> boily: mr president, i am assuming that individual commissioners might perhaps also wish to refer to two of my constituents in the shetland isles in scotland, to reconsider a reduction in payments does not make sense for us always to advocate greater democracy for workers in the private sector. this is also why, since i sent a note to answer this crucial question: do you not think that this is only a first step towards establis
01:22:38 <fizzie> "Mr Cohn-Bendit, you should not be contemptuous of a colleague!" "Well he should keep quiet! Things are very simple. --"
01:24:31 <fizzie> "Madam President, I do not understand why you are getting so irritated before I have even opened my mouth!"
01:25:29 <int-e> . o O ( Sounds like a common complaint of some IRC trolls. )
01:27:43 <boily> fungot: are you for the current establishment?
01:27:44 <fungot> boily: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, the concern voiced here is completely groundless.
01:27:59 <boily> fungot: yes, I am grounded.
01:27:59 <fungot> boily: mr president, i voted for the report i hope the commissioner can produce that for us.
01:28:18 <fizzie> fungot: I think we all hope that.
01:28:19 <fungot> fizzie: i should like to inform you that the views on the backwardness of american culture as compared with the earlier voting time, it is well-known that my irish colleague, commissioner monti wrote to the president of the millennium declaration and the ensuing resolution, that we can see to it that they are not all that satisfied about what has been said in the report, it will be possible, by the clear commitment to responsib
01:28:29 <int-e> fungot: very politician, voting on something you haven't seen :)
01:28:30 <fungot> int-e: mr president, i merely wanted to draw your attention to the specialist training and of help towards micro-projects aimed at improving the contribution which would be incompatible with the wto ministerial meeting in new york, even in some of the suggestions contained in the report.
01:28:50 <int-e> . o O ( "politician" is an adjective, right? Right?! )
01:29:40 <fizzie> "politician -- (a schemer who tries to gain advantage in an organization in sly or underhanded ways)" (WordNet)
01:29:51 <fizzie> Okay, there were some other meanings as well.
01:31:37 <int-e> A. Bierce suggests, POLITICIAN, n. An eel in the fundamental mud upon which the superstructure of organized society is reared. When we wriggles he mistakes the agitation of his tail for the trembling of the edifice. As compared with the statesman, he suffers the disadvantage of being alive.
01:31:58 <int-e> I guess that "we" is a "he".
01:39:27 <int-e> Sad, the text is correct on project gutenberg but I found that typo on two websites :-(
01:45:57 <int-e> Hmm, bitcoin looks foamy.
01:48:22 <\oren\> omg omg I love this game
01:49:22 <int-e> the star star one?
01:54:20 <int-e> thanks for the warning
01:56:57 <shachaf> int-e: http://bitsim.beepboopbitcoin.com hth
01:57:21 <shachaf> (There's more to that game than it seems.)
01:58:30 <shachaf> including e.g. http://slbkbs.org/moon.png
01:58:38 <int-e> YUI({}).use('gallery-base64', function(Y) { var enc=Y.Base64.decode('...');eval(enc);});
01:59:16 <shachaf> you're holding back progress, yo
01:59:54 <boily> int-ello. that doesn't look very safe...
01:59:59 <int-e> why do you have to base64-encode the whole thing, it doesn't make sense.
02:00:19 <shachaf> I don't know, it's not my thing.
02:01:03 <int-e> boily: that's, I guess, the code implementing the game shachaf linked to.
02:04:00 <int-e> this part also seems important: o.parentNode.insertBefore(s,o)}(window,document,"script","//www.google-analytics.com/analytics.js","ga"),ga("create","UA-49624540-1","beepboopbitcoin.com"),ga("send","pageview")
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02:05:15 <int-e> I'll admit that there are some nice text snippets in there.
02:05:26 <int-e> "everyone is talking about a scam some people fell for.","they're complaining that wikipedia doesn't accept donations in bitcoin.",...
02:06:05 <oerjan> <int-e> Hmm, bitcoin looks foamy. <-- wow, it's passed 1 USD / mBTC
02:06:23 <int-e> yes, for the second time in its history.
02:06:40 <shachaf> can i have that in picodollars twh
02:09:59 <int-e> but okay, the base64 mainly seems to be used to obfuscate the text snippets, nothing sinister.
02:10:09 <\oren\> huh, the currency in this game is weird. they use the symbol $ for it, but a beer costs $200
02:10:35 <int-e> maybe it's set 30 years in the future.
02:10:46 <\oren\> int-e: it's set in 2070
02:10:55 <int-e> seems realistic then
02:12:33 <shachaf> That's quite a bit of inflation.
02:13:14 <int-e> (It's fun to read novels from the 30s and compare prizes... e.g., expensive private detectives asking for $20 a week!)
02:13:16 <shachaf> Certainly not unprecedented, but a lot for the US.
02:13:33 <Jafet> oerjan: about 0.01 btc
02:13:43 <shachaf> I don't know, but I assume <$20
02:14:01 <int-e> "the big news is that one of the big name bitcoin businesses just shut down without warning. All customer assets have vanished. The owners are blaming hackers."
02:14:13 <int-e> I have no clue what that could be alluding to!!!!1
02:14:20 <shachaf> Are you playing the game or just reading the code?
02:14:42 <shachaf> It's a good game, you should eval all that code.
02:14:52 <oerjan> listen, i want the price in USD for obvious reason.
02:15:06 <int-e> "You read about a company called Flutterby Labs" -- not very well obfuscated, that one.
02:16:03 <int-e> Haha. "Flutterby Labs Inc. is a small, fairly new organization in the prepackaged software companies industry located in Mountain View, CA"
02:16:04 <shachaf> int-e: If you play the game, you get to play multiple parallel games, one of them as Flutterby Labs
02:16:25 <oerjan> i think the inflation goal is 2 or 2.5? and the feds have had trouble getting it that high...
02:17:28 <boily> \oren\: your beers are cheaper than here...
02:17:29 <int-e> Neat. "Except Butterfly Labs added a twist. They didn't sell pickaxes. They sold preorders for pickaxes."
02:20:01 <int-e> But the game doesn't mention the GH/J metric, sad.
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02:29:38 <HackEgo> rocket surgery? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:35:22 <\oren\> In KSP i had to do rocket surgery the other day
02:35:58 <\oren\> I put the wrong part on my space cruiser and had to replace it on orbit
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02:38:19 <\oren\> I tossed the other reactor into the atmosphere. it's probably fine.
02:40:44 <\oren\> pffhahahahahahahahahahahahah "mon aeroglisseur est plain de anguilles"
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02:49:45 * oerjan fastens weepypeep's nick with a staple gun
02:51:23 <shachaf> oerjan: good, it was pretty unstaple
02:51:46 * oerjan fastens shachaf's nick with a swatter -----###
02:53:36 <shachaf> apparently that's what fireflies eat
02:53:37 * oerjan catches FireFly with a double Lewberger with left spiral out -----###
02:53:38 <FireFly> I'd say I hum at about 200Hz
02:54:18 <FireFly> shachaf: pfft, if anything you should pay me in *real* fake money, like bitcoins
02:54:52 <HackEgo> haikcoin wtrycoin 6iycoin kachidcoin fclafacoin optimecoin lrhotoogtcoin prelcoin mouserticoin bytecoin maftgreencoin prolacoin spiracoin aarcoin surfcoin raincoin tendocoin ikvcoin choonlecoin cobocoin
03:05:16 <Jafet> presumably the bytecoin is pegged to the bitcoin
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03:13:57 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl;
03:14:17 <HackEgo> 2/2: "$topic1" | rnooooooodl; \ else echo "$1? ¯\(°_o)/¯"; exit 1; \ fi
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03:16:46 <oerjan> `sled bin/?//s, | rnooodl,,;sfi,fi | rnooodl,
03:16:48 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 32: unterminated `s' command
03:17:21 <oerjan> `sled bin/?//s, [|] rnooodl,,;sfi,fi | rnooodl,
03:17:23 <HackEgo> /bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 34: unterminated `s' command
03:18:27 <oerjan> `sled bin/?//s, [|] rnooodl,,g;s,fi,fi | rnooodl,
03:18:34 <HackEgo> bin/?//#!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "_$topic1"_ = "_ngevd"_ \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic"; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1"; \ else echo
03:19:00 <shachaf> in my opinion it wouldn't hurt to just replace the #!/bin/bash with something more nooooooooodly
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03:20:21 <HackEgo> noooooodl is the correct spelling
03:21:04 <oerjan> i don't understand what you mean.
03:23:33 <oerjan> or, if i do, i don't think it would make a difference.
03:26:06 <\oren\> It occurs to me that mmost of these jokes are references to internet culture that are a product of this decade, and therefore this game will be less funny when played in the year it is set in
03:27:20 <oerjan> maybe it'll just be funny for a different reason. zeerust anyone?
03:29:24 <\oren\> "she's using a tochscreen phone, like wut? people stopped using those in the 30's!"
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03:46:31 <\oren\> I actually wonder what sort of user interface will catch on in the next few decades
03:50:17 <\oren\> right now it's touchscreens on everything.
03:50:48 <\oren\> but I've seen people play games using eye tracking software
03:52:03 <\oren\> it seems the trend is toward as little physical effort as possible
04:00:47 <\oren\> $ export CURRENT_YEAR=2017
04:01:01 <\oren\> forgot to set the CURRENT_YEA
04:12:04 <zzo38> I don't like touch screen; keyboard is a better interface
04:14:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'd prefer not to use mouse, but everything is designed for it and such is the way of the world
04:16:04 <\oren\> I would prefer eye tracking if I could afford the damn thing
04:16:23 <\oren\> eye tracking for the mouse, not the keyboard
04:17:08 <hppavilion[1]> I'd also like a chorded keyboard if I could get such a thing
04:17:23 <\oren\> well, technically I can afford it, but it just seems like a waste for what is effectively a prototype
04:17:42 <hppavilion[1]> I *might* be able to set one up with AHK by making it so that any combination of keys followed by a key release types that combination
04:17:58 <hppavilion[1]> And presumably if you don't release all the keys you were holding, the ones you're still holding stick around :D
04:20:59 <hppavilion[1]> So exempli gratia the chords for 'T' and 'H' would vary by a single note, since 'TH' is the most common digraph
04:21:19 <hppavilion[1]> But then again, T is a common letter, so it might be only a single symbol in the first place
04:23:46 <hppavilion[1]> Let's say that in Monty Pythonian, 'ca' is a common trigraph, but 'c' and 'a' are relatively uncommon outside of that trigraph
04:25:07 <hppavilion[1]> You might bind 'c' to the sequence (on a traditional keyboard with chording added on) asf+j and 'a' to the sequence asf+k
04:25:40 <hppavilion[1]> (the notation here being <contributing notes>+<trigger note>- you depress the contributing notes then press and release the triggering note to type a symbol)
04:27:15 <hppavilion[1]> So you'd do (using an unrelated notation where every time a symbol appears alone it's pressed and appearing immediately before ^ it is released) asfjj^kk^
04:29:43 <oerjan> that's a pretty short trigraph.
04:30:55 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: "a" counts as 4 letters in Monty Pythonian hth
04:32:44 <hppavilion[1]> "What's the word count of your essay" "2_576+694i"
04:33:33 <zzo38> Not everything is designed for mouse and touch screen there is other way too. Many program can use keyboard, and some are design they can work with mouse and with keyboard.
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05:42:25 <HackEgo> Your wise @messages-lord fanfic oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Glasswegian who dislikes Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience; but lately it's the only word he can ever remember. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
05:42:37 <HackEgo> Word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.
06:16:57 <\oren\> argh I hate twitter so much
06:17:17 <\oren\> why do people put clapping emojis between every word
06:27:01 <pikhq> Costs as much as space.
06:55:30 <zzo38> I made up a program to convert all of the X cursor shapes for use with SDL. The resulting data should then be usable with SDL on any computer.
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09:01:46 <HackEgo> Violation is the act of playing an instrument in the viola family.
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11:35:59 <HackEgo> poland//Połąńd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes.
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13:05:07 <HackEgo> select//select is a very versatile construct: it waits for events, retrieves data from tables, creates a list from elements of an input list that satisfy a condition, a dropdown list element, an event for when selection changes, branches between multiple arms, conditional between two expressions, prints a text-based menu prompt in a loop, and more.
13:05:10 <HackEgo> rdococ is apparently from Budapest, but probably not. Thanks to boily he is approaching permanent boredom.
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13:48:18 <b_jonas> oh! let's make an operating system where any byte, including the nul byte, can be part of a pathname, so system calls take filenames terminated by a '\1' followed by 255 '\0' bytes. that can't conflict with anything, since pathname components can't be longer than 255 bytes.
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16:41:47 <oerjan> the connection has fraktured
16:42:32 <rdococ> ono <(we must fix the connexone)
16:43:38 <oerjan> apparently so has fizzie
16:44:57 <oerjan> . o O ( it was the Day of the Apocalypse. HackEgo had fraktured, and the channel was filled with eerie colors... )
16:45:21 <rdococ> if you wanted eerie colors rather than cute colors you could have just said.
16:45:46 <oerjan> . o O ( and then it turned red like blood )
16:47:50 <oerjan> . o O ( fortunately for once, putty's ignorance of colors when cutting and pasting helped )
16:48:47 <oerjan> . o O ( as did irssi's ignorance of tabs )
16:49:13 <oerjan> . o O ( * wilful ignorance )
16:50:14 <rdococ> . o O ( you cooould just highlight it )
16:50:28 <rdococ> . o O ( oh and HexChat lets you choose whether to copy colors )
16:50:44 <\oren\> ok srsly how do you do reversed text
16:51:06 <oerjan> . o O ( apparently putty's highlighting doesn't overcome red on red, so no. )
16:51:41 <rdococ> what about green-on-green?
16:51:57 <rdococ> my lovely hexchat always makes highlighted text white on blue
16:52:08 <rdococ> so it's easy to read no matter what the original colours were
16:52:14 <rdococ> thus, hexchat is the clear victor
16:52:16 <oerjan> rdococ: not that either.
16:52:27 <\oren\> stupid tmux, stop responding to my clicking!
16:53:35 <Gregor> It amuses me that you had a panic attack that HackEgo was down but couldn't care less that esolangs.org is down.
16:54:20 <oerjan> THEY'RE THE SAME THING
16:54:44 <Gregor> Not sure what happened but I gave the server a (virtual) kick so hopefully it'll come back up.
16:55:15 <\oren\> hmm terrible idea, lets make it possible to edit the wiki by sending sed command to Heackego
16:55:58 <\oren\> like `wikised brainfuck s/something that needs to change/the thing it should be/
16:56:14 <oerjan> that is indeed a terrible idea.
16:56:52 <\oren\> then we can have and watch edit wars in real time
16:57:22 <oerjan> we can already watch them. except now fizzie probably needs to restart the wiki bridge after this.
16:57:44 <\oren\> it will be fun when people craft their regexes to preemptively overwrite what other people are trying to wirte
16:57:59 <rdococ> the colors are still here
16:58:23 <oerjan> . o O ( don't tempt me to add +c )
16:58:32 <\oren\> for me, that's light red on dark red
16:59:37 <oerjan> it seems HackEgo is still not joining.
16:59:47 <\oren\> rdococ: i dunno, I'm using irssi -> tmux -> ssh -> tmux -> mac terminal
17:00:59 <\oren\> iterm2, however, shows it as bright red on bright red
17:01:03 <oerjan> presumably mac terminal doesn't like to show colors as invisible
17:02:08 <\oren\> I think mac terminal jsut doesn't support bright colors as backgraound and foreground
17:02:16 <\oren\> a lot of terminals don't
17:03:19 <\oren\> basically they have to support display modes 90-109 for that
17:04:48 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_escape_code
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17:06:38 <rdococ> [93do you see this in color?
17:09:04 <\oren\> no I don't, so i'm at a loss as to how irssi is doing this
17:11:09 <\oren\> oh, iterm2 supports ^[[38;5;Nm 256 color mode
17:11:36 <rdococ> what horrible language should I think about and end up not making today?
17:11:56 <\oren\> and evem ^[[38;2;R;G;Bm 24 bit color
17:14:22 <\oren\> [38;2;240;255;240mtesting testing 1 2 3
17:15:00 <\oren\> [38;5;49mtesting testing 1 2 3
17:15:17 <\oren\> but irssi doesn't let either of thse through
17:15:25 <pikhq> It's a pity there's no practical way to do polyglot 24-bit color *and* lower bit depths (in such a way things "just work" for everything)...
17:15:43 <oerjan> \oren\: i see some very light colors on white
17:16:19 <\oren\> oerjan: those were supposed to be honeydew (a very light green)
17:16:29 <\oren\> and a very light turkoise
17:16:40 <oerjan> turquoise may be right
17:16:53 <oerjan> the first one looked more grey, though
17:17:40 <rdococ> [38;2;240;255;10what color does this look like?
17:17:52 <rdococ> [38;2;240;255;10mI mean this
17:18:12 <oerjan> that looks light gold or thereabouts
17:18:24 <rdococ> well, that is 240;255;10
17:18:31 <rdococ> [38;2;240;255;0mso this will be yellow?
17:18:38 <rdococ> [38;2;240;255;0mwell, gold but yellow?
17:18:38 <oerjan> putty seems to have checked something called "xterm 256 color mode".
17:18:56 <oerjan> so i guess it has more color capability than i thought.
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17:19:08 <\oren\> oerjan: so something further p my chain must be stripping it out
17:19:29 <rdococ> [38;2;255;0;0mr[38;2;255;128;0ma[38;2;255;255;0mi[38;2;128;255;0mn[38;2;0;255;0mb
17:20:16 <\oren\> hmm, so my version of irssi must be old
17:21:09 <oerjan> apparently irssi has a setting for 24 bit colors, but it was off.
17:21:34 <b_jonas> "It's a pity there's no practical way to do polyglot 24-bit color *and* lower bit depths (in such a way things "just work" for everything)..." => ais523 did some research about that. but it's indeed very difficult because if you write the 24-bit color codes with colons, then some terminals don't understand them, and if you write them with semicolons, then linux console will interpret the individual components as codes setting mode flags some of which are
17:21:51 <b_jonas> \ but it's indeed very difficult because if you write the 24-bit color codes with colons, then some terminals don't understand them, and if you write them with semicolons, then linux console will interpret the individual components as codes setting mode flags some of which are harmful so you need to specifically turn them off.
17:23:19 <b_jonas> The value 12 is the most harmful in particular, because "\e[12m" turns on some crazy mode on linux console.
17:24:45 <fizzie> Was my ping just about HackEgo?
17:25:20 <b_jonas> So you need to explicitly undo it with "\e[10m"
17:25:58 <b_jonas> I don't recall what ais523 decided eventually about polyglots with 24-bit color.
17:27:35 <\oren\> irssi doesn't have any updated documentation, so the best way to figure a lot of stuff out is to use the source
17:27:38 <oerjan> fizzie: yep. it might need the wiki bridge restarted now.
17:27:55 <oerjan> but Gregor fixed the rest.
17:28:11 <oerjan> (well, i assume he didn't fix the bridge, since he didn't make it)
17:28:42 <pikhq> b_jonas: Yup, exactly the sort of thing I was referring to.
17:29:02 <pikhq> You can *just* do 256 color, but I don't think ais523 figured out a way to do it, and I certainly don't see one.
17:29:34 <b_jonas> pikhq: 256 color has a different problem that makes it almost impossible to do as a generic polyglot that works everywhere
17:29:47 <fizzie> oerjan: Thanks for reminding, I didn't think of the bridge at all.
17:30:02 <fizzie> (It may or may not be still alive; I'll check.)
17:31:04 <b_jonas> namely that urxvt can be compiled to support either the 256 color mode or the 80 color mode, and those two use EXACTLY THE SAME FUCKING ESCAPE SEQUENCES BUT WITH A DIFFERENT PALETTE so the same escape sequence can set one of two unrelated colors.
17:31:35 <b_jonas> You tell the terminal that you want color number 75, and then you get either the 75th color of the series of 80, or the 75th color from the series of 256
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17:36:39 <b_jonas> And these are just the saner things he had to deal with about terminals, because there are terminals where the problem isn't with fancy multi-color support, but basic functions broken.
17:37:08 <b_jonas> Like that terminal that can't decode utf-8 characters that happen to be split through a read() boundary;
17:38:28 <b_jonas> that other terminal which is the reason why ais's library initializes terminals by sending a few kilobytes of nulls;
17:39:03 <b_jonas> that terminal which produces graphics glitches when the window size is too large;
17:39:40 <b_jonas> that terminal which generates the same escape code for the home and end buttons;
17:39:51 <zzo38> I should write a better terminal emulator
17:39:57 <b_jonas> those terminals that crash;
17:40:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Starfish]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50639&oldid=50637 * Redstarcoder * (+480) /* Code execution */ Explained fisherman instruction
17:40:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cool]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50640 * IQBigBang * (+826) Created page with "Cool ('''C'''haracter '''O'''bject '''O'''riented '''L'''anguage) is esoteric programming language made by [[User:IQBigBang]] on 3rd January 2017. Almost everycharacter in thi..."
17:40:21 <b_jonas> and older urxvt which used to get backspacing from past the end of the line wrong.
17:40:28 <fizzie> The bridge had indeed broken down.
17:40:43 <fizzie> I wasn't expecting edits immediately after bringing it back up, though.
17:40:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: nah, there are good ones. the problem is that programs have to support old or broken terminals too.
17:41:02 <b_jonas> Oh, and there's of course terminals that are just plain SLOW.
17:41:14 <zzo38> I currently use xterm
17:41:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: for x11, I really recommend urxvt, provided you get a not very old version and compile it yourself with your preferred config options.
17:42:00 <b_jonas> easier than writing a completely new one.
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17:42:11 <b_jonas> I run a patched xterm with custom configs myself on linux.
17:42:12 <zzo38> I wrote on http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/terminalemulator what feature I want to implement.
17:42:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cool]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50641&oldid=50640 * IQBigBang * (+85)
17:43:06 <oerjan> fizzie: we seem to be getting a lot of new users these days
17:43:28 <b_jonas> "Nearly full support for DEC and Tektronix terminal emulation, including
17:43:28 <b_jonas> Sixel and ReGIS graphics, full DEC technical set (including pieces of the
17:43:31 <b_jonas> big Sigma), Tektronix APL mode, downloadable fonts, etc" => whoa
17:43:37 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe this Internet thing is finally hitting it big time.
17:43:38 <b_jonas> what do you need that for?
17:44:00 <zzo38> To be completed. Tektronix mode may be omitted, but the other stuff should not be omitted.
17:44:26 <b_jonas> (I even debugged an ugly bug out of urxvt once. Those were the days.)
17:45:14 <b_jonas> "Use different mouse cursor shape when mouse events are enabled (using
17:45:14 <b_jonas> XC_xterm when not mouse mode, and XC_arrow when mouse clicking is enabled;
17:45:17 <b_jonas> may be configurable)" => oh! good idea
17:46:02 <zzo38> Yes, that is a feature xterm doesn't have and that I think would be good.
17:46:27 <b_jonas> "Pipe data to an external program (you configure what program and what arguments) to implementing printer controller mode; this external program receives all of the same ANSI data that the terminal will receive" => and another external program controlling the ticker tape puncher?
17:47:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: you could patch some of these features to existing good terminal emulators (urxvt and screen are the ones I like)
17:47:21 * APic has a Sticker on his Bike where a Printer prints ANSI.SYS or something
17:47:57 <zzo38> Yes you could add such an external program if you want it to control a ticker tape puncher, although this is intended for sending to a printer, but could also be use for others.
17:48:04 <b_jonas> "Support for any X visual classes (monochrome, grayscale, indexed colours, programmable indexed colours, true colours)" => I think urxvt has that
17:49:27 <b_jonas> (and other features, like controlling with X resources, many xterm extensions)
17:50:15 <\oren\> the main feature I think terminals lack is more sophisticated graphics
17:50:25 <b_jonas> "Keyboard commands for ... United Kingdom mode, local mode, VT52 mode, ..." => what the heck is that?
17:50:53 <fizzie> b_jonas: The first one is a mode where you can't type mean things about the Queen.
17:51:17 <fizzie> Okay, maybe that's more of a "Thailand mode".
17:51:35 <b_jonas> "Environment variable with process ID of terminal" => you can implement that with a small wrapper between the terminal and the shell or other program it starts, one that execves the program in its argument but saves its ppid to an env-var
17:51:37 <zzo38> No that is not what it means. United Kingdom mode mean you can type and display the British pounds sign.
17:52:02 <b_jonas> or even with a shell command like export TERMINAL_PID=$PPID
17:52:20 <zzo38> Yes, that can work.
17:52:37 <zzo38> \oren\: Yes. It is a feature that actual DEC terminals have
17:55:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Starfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50642&oldid=50639 * Redstarcoder * (+15) /* Dive / rise */ added fisherman to list of movement instructions
17:55:23 <b_jonas> What I'd like is to have three separate displayed colors corresponding to each of the palette of approx 18 colors: one used for background, one for foreground when the background is dark, and one for foreground when the background is light. This would let most color combinations become readable.
17:56:15 <zzo38> b_jonas: Ah, that is a interesting idea I suppose. But may be considered more complicated than it should be. I do not know yet.
17:56:34 <zzo38> (Even if you are not in United Kingdom mode you can still display the British pounds sign when selecting VT100 character graphics set)
17:56:56 <\oren\> b_jonas: I have simply designed a pallette that has good display properties
17:57:38 <\oren\> in particular, the light and dark versions differ in hue as well as lightness to help readability
17:58:11 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, I have such a palette too, and other people have designed more, but some scheme like this (it might not be exactly what I described) could be even better
17:58:54 <zzo38> One of my idea is that for example SIGUSR1 may reset the terminal or partially reset the terminal, so that the shell can automatically do that after a program exits in order to avoid problem with programs that mess up the terminal mode.
17:58:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: is rewrapping lines when you resize the window, like urxvt or the windows 10 terminal does, a goal?
17:59:29 <b_jonas> put that in non-goals then
17:59:51 <b_jonas> but dynamically resizing the terminal is still a goal, right?
18:00:01 <b_jonas> and a user-configurable palette too
18:01:29 <b_jonas> "One of my idea is that for example SIGUSR1 may reset the terminal or partially reset the terminal," => the problem with that is that the signal isn't necessarily ordered with writes to the terminal, so if both happen quickly (and they will often do when a program exits then the shell writes something) then the terminal won't know when to reset.
18:02:00 <b_jonas> it would be better to use something that goes in-band
18:02:03 <zzo38> To resize the terminal by escape codes to at least 80x24 and 132x24 are goals; possibly others too. Although these features may be disabled by user configuration. Also of course the user can always resize the terminal window and to set the palette in the X resources.
18:03:00 <zzo38> (The user can resize the terminal to any size; it doesn't have to be only 80x24)
18:03:15 <pikhq> It's a pity there's not a modernish spec for terminal escapes.
18:03:22 <b_jonas> "the user can always resize the terminal window" => um, ok, but I mean the user should be able to resize the size of the terminal grid in characters, not only the window
18:03:51 <zzo38> Yes it does change the size of the terminal grid in characters.
18:03:52 <pikhq> i.e. one including what most people and terminals actually use, with little disregard for ancient historical practice or unused, unimplemented features.
18:05:09 <b_jonas> Oh! Above when I takled about broken terminals, I forgot to rant about the windows 10 terminal's vt102-like escape code support!
18:06:11 <b_jonas> The windows 10 terminal recognizes certain escapes, in particular "\e[6,3H" and "\e[H" works, but "\e[6H" is treated as a no-op.
18:07:13 <zzo38> Using in-band would help (and would avoid needing to use a signal), although then there is the problem to be confuse with incompleted codes, although there may be a way to work around that too, perhaps involving the ASCII "cancel" control, as well as maybe others too.
18:09:06 <b_jonas> While it treats most DEC-like sequences it doesn't recognize (and there's many of those) as a no-op; it interprets "\x18" and "\x00" and "\x1a" and "\x0f" as some printable char taking up a grid space rather than a no-op.
18:10:22 <b_jonas> Also, it uses the ugly style wrapping where if you write a character to the last column, the cursor is immediately moved to the next line, rather than kept in that row past the end of the line.
18:10:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: I wonder if some tty-related magic ioctl can be used for this
18:11:22 <zzo38> b_jonas: I thought of that too but don't know if any such thing is possible.
18:13:08 <b_jonas> doesn't tcdrain allow this somehow?
18:13:26 <b_jonas> I mean, tcdrain together with some other side-band mechanism (not signals)
18:14:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Starfish]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50643&oldid=50642 * Redstarcoder * (+11) /* *> */ note mirror as outdated
18:15:22 <b_jonas> Perhaps you could use a protocol where the shell sends a long random number on a side-band, and a fixed escape sequence with that random number in it in the normal terminal stream, and the terminal makes sure to parse and find that escape sequence even when it's in a strange state that would normally not find that escape sequence.
18:16:30 <zzo38> That seems complicated
18:17:45 <b_jonas> it's probably easier to ensure that the terminal just can't be set into a mode where it doesn't listen to an ordinary init escape sequence (where you get to choose the exact string for that escape sequence)
18:18:20 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I suggested above about in-band, to use some sequence that can ensure it will work.
18:18:32 <zzo38> I should then just need to ensure that such a sequence exists.
18:18:54 <b_jonas> Or possibly use a break for this, for a linux pty can detect that I think.
18:19:21 <b_jonas> In-band has the advantage that it can work through ssh.
18:20:04 <zzo38> Yes, that is that.
18:20:21 <zzo38> In-band probably is best
18:22:14 <b_jonas> ah no, linux pty can't detect a break. it can detect some other special signals including flow control that the slave can send (on a local host, not necessarily through ssh) with ioctl TIOCPKT
18:22:42 <zzo38> As far as I know a break signal is not possible with pseudoterminals anyways. But I thought to implement it anyways so that when the break key is pushed it will read the IGNBRK and BRKINT flags in order to determine what to do.
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18:31:42 <zzo38> Is this possible to do?
18:40:15 <zzo38> I also thought that in response to a DECREQTPARM request it can use tcgetispeed(), tcgetospeed(), and tcgetattr() in order to determine how to respond. You can therefore change the reported baud rate if you have a slow connection to a telnet server in order to tell them to disable fancy stuff.
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19:28:04 <int-e> that was evil. "Is your New Year’s resolution to read more webcomics?"
19:28:22 <int-e> (from http://castoff-comic.com/comic/chapter-4-page-11/ )
19:33:28 <\oren\> why does expedia recommend i fly cheap to reykjavik
19:34:31 <\oren\> becuase its cold in ice land
19:34:56 <\oren\> also I doubt an airline called "WOW air" is any good
19:35:10 <lambdabot> BIRK 031900Z 10006KT CAVOK M00/M04 Q1026 R01/320150
19:35:21 <shachaf> it's only minus zero degrees
19:35:31 <int-e> . o O ( nothing like a whiff of fresh air during a flight )
19:35:33 <\oren\> probly land in vldivostok instead and get sent to gulag
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19:37:51 <\oren\> also why do so many flights have stops in atlanta
19:40:21 <\oren\> then again, a flight to ice land for only 240 canadian dollars is pretty impressive
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20:30:06 <lambdabot> EGLL 032020Z AUTO 26010KT 9999 OVC026 05/01 Q1025 NOSIG
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20:59:41 <\oren\> but I still haven't found out why expedia thinks i should go to ice land
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23:07:49 <HackEgo> json//JSON is JavaSyntax Or Nothing.
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