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00:50:17 <HackEgo> tea//Tea is concentrated fuel made by distilling occult herbs in a silver alambic. Americans attempted to reduce its potency by dumping some in the Ocean.
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01:04:21 <fizzie> Is Eclipse really still the "leading Java IDE"? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tools_for_static_code_analysis#Java says so.
01:05:02 <fizzie> I guess Google could've answered that for me. https://zeroturnaround.com/rebellabs/java-tools-and-technologies-landscape-2016/ reportrs 46% IntelliJ, 41% Eclipse, 10% NetBeans and 3% Other.
01:06:00 <boily> I like Eclipse. very powerful!
01:06:11 <boily> IntelliJ is hipsterer, but its interface confuses me...
01:07:37 <DHeadshot> How easy would it be to learn the Java Bytecode and write it by hand?
01:09:14 <boily> fizziello, DHellodshot.
01:09:23 <boily> probably about the same as writing assembly?
01:10:19 <shachaf> I expect easier, given how well Java decompilers wok.
01:11:08 <sdhand> I would have said I expected harder, purely because java bytecode doesn't have mnemonics
01:11:24 <sdhand> I guess it would be fairly trivial to write some kind of "bytecode assembler" however
01:12:13 <DHeadshot> Is the bytecode documented somewhere?
01:12:36 <sdhand> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_bytecode_instruction_listings
01:14:11 <DHeadshot> (I don't even really know what sort of architecture and processor model the JVM uses...)
01:22:38 <fizzie> The spec has a resonably okay instruction listing as well, https://docs.oracle.com/javase/specs/jvms/se8/html/index.html
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01:26:00 <fizzie> I think I entertained the thought of compiling something else stack-based (Befunge? Forth?) to JVM bytecode and reusing the "native" stack for that language's stack, but it turned out the JVM bytecode verifier is super-picky about the stack.
01:27:00 <alercah> is there a crm meetup on the 12th of february?
01:28:45 <fizzie> (In particular, it wants to know the stack depths statically at all times, and if you have control flow, the stack depth at point X must be the same for every way you can reach X.)
01:31:00 <boily> albonsoircah. let me check...
01:31:44 <boily> yes, there is one.
01:35:37 <alercah> please communicate to me details
01:35:47 <alercah> through your preferred method
01:36:43 * oerjan gets an urge to do some canadian stalking
01:36:46 <boily> we usually get briefed on the location either Tuesday or Wednesday, same week as the meet. I will spam you with the details then.
01:38:08 * oerjan pointedly copies and pastes the result link from google instead of clicking it
01:38:09 <zzo38> I think that a Java assembler does exist.
01:38:19 <zzo38> So, you can write it in Java assembly language if you want to
01:38:49 <oerjan> is it this thing http://www.crm.umontreal.ca/en/
01:41:10 <boily> no, it's partly https://riichimontreal.org/ and http://riichi.ca/site/
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01:49:20 <HackEgo> ant//Ants are great architects. They are famous for their highways.
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01:50:03 <oerjan> is there a reference in that wisdom
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01:51:34 <boily> oerjan: it confuses me...
01:51:42 <DHeadshot> zzo38: Wikipedia suggests something called "Lilac"
01:52:06 <boily> int-e: int-ello. ants???
01:52:22 * oerjan goes to check for german puns
01:55:54 <oerjan> <fizzie> Broiling is something you do with a broiler; a broiler is something you use for broiling. <-- you'd think a proper dictionary would have some kind of "use only these words for definitions" rule...
01:56:44 <oerjan> so that everything bottomed out at the 1000 most common words or something.
01:59:39 <boily> broiling is like boiling, but more broily.
02:00:01 <alercah> will broily also be at the mahjong meetup?
02:00:40 <oerjan> `learn broily is like boily, but more broiling.
02:00:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'broily': broily is like boily, but more broiling.
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02:01:35 <boily> alercah: I will. from that I surmise that you will too ^^
02:03:16 <alercah> boily: no I was just asking for fun </sarcasm>
02:04:50 <oerjan> 03:04 fun [~fun@gethostbyname.org]
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02:12:36 <oerjan> @tell boily i assess that chicken to be misspelled
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02:31:55 <zzo38> Wiktionary includes "assesment" and says it is a misspelling.
02:32:22 <zzo38> (Why is there even an entry for a misspelled word?)
02:34:56 <oerjan> zzo38: their policy is to have entries for anything sufficiently attested in use
03:02:02 <zzo38> Do medieval shields have bands of lead in them? Someone told me that they do, but I don't know much about it?
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04:03:49 <zzo38> I invented (but not yet finalized; the GM needs to do that, possibly with my help) a few new spells for GURPS, such as "Altered Vision" and "Vampire Transfer" spells, and also the ideas of "Seek Fire" and "Seek Wind" spells (to go with "Seek Water" and "Seek Earth").
04:04:54 <zzo38> Do you like any of this?
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04:18:02 <zzo38> "Altered Vision" spell allow you to temporarily change the frequency band of the target's vision.
04:33:03 <zzo38> oerjan: I think that you do not need some kind of "use only these words for definitions" rule as an absolute rule, but it should probably be a soft rule perhaps, and the example you gave should probably be OK to use that definition for one of the words but not the other; probably both words are on the same page anyways and you can easily find it, so if you look up one of them and you do not know what it means you can easily find the other one which
04:34:25 <oerjan> zzo38: what you want is to avoid cycles not involving any of the basic words - a list of allowed words is just the simplest way to ensure that.
04:35:00 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes. That is good.
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04:41:32 <Jafet> some shields had iron frames, but I've never heard of shields with heavy metal bands
06:14:19 <zzo38> Neither have I, but the GM of this GURPS game seems to think that they do (with the exception of "light shields"); if he is wrong then I can notify him (he can refuse to believe me if he wishes, or even define some NPCs that have shields with lead bands, but I should notify him anyways).
06:19:08 <zzo38> I looked on Wikipedia and he does seem to be wrong; I see nothing about including lead in shields.
06:20:28 <pikhq> Good god, why would you include lead in shields, even as part of an alloy?
06:20:47 <pikhq> For that matter, why would you want a shield to be heavier?
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06:26:44 <zzo38> He said to absorb the damage, but that does not seem quite right to me.
06:32:24 <zzo38> How much heavier would they be though if they did have lead bands thick enough to not just count as being coated with lead?
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06:39:00 <zzo38> Someone who wishes to fight characters of the same species of my character, by the use of shield bashes, who knows of that vulnerability, may wish to add lead bands if the weight and/or cost would not be a problem.
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06:44:30 <alercah> pikhq: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html
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10:01:57 <oerjan> heh r/physics has a "Motl warning" flair
10:07:35 <\oren\> http://motls.blogspot.ca/ <- this guy?
10:08:34 <oerjan> a physicist so incapable of being polite that he got sacked
10:09:39 <\oren\> and apparently a trump supporter too
10:10:16 <oerjan> but he was impolite way before trump
10:15:10 <\oren\> I wonder if my dad ever met him
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10:27:22 <\oren\> my dad once met stanislaw ulam
10:28:10 <\oren\> despite inventing genocidal weapons
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10:43:30 <int-e> @tell boily ants --> Langton
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10:49:43 <\oren\> I'm adding more characters to my font
10:49:51 <\oren\> what should I add today?
10:54:48 <int-e> a dirty blonde toupet?
10:57:03 <\oren\> I'm not going to do emojis since OS's are moving toward handling them specially
10:58:40 <int-e> I was thinking of a private use character anyway
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10:58:55 <\oren\> which is the only sane way to handle all the shit that the consortium is pushing
10:59:35 <int-e> (and I don't have any plans of actually using your font, so there are plenty of reasons to ignore me anyway)
11:01:58 <int-e> of course 🐜 exists...
11:03:05 <HackEgo> U+1F41C ANT \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 9c UTF-16BE: d83ddc1c Decimal: 🐜 \ 🐜 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
11:03:47 <int-e> http://emojipedia.org/ant/ ... emojipedia, *of course* that exists.
11:04:36 <\oren\> ...which is, again, the only sane way to handle all the shit that the consortium is pushing
11:04:43 <HackEgo> Thanks, U+1F41C. ThU+1F41C.
11:06:04 <int-e> HackEgo: ITYM "Tsk".
11:07:02 <\oren\> they are like we need male and female emojis of doctors and shit but we can;t have a subscript N noooo
11:08:43 <\oren\> 𝔍𝔎𝔏𝔐𝔑𝔒𝔓𝔔𝔖𝔗𝔘𝔙𝔚𝔛𝔜𝔞𝔟𝔠𝔡𝔢𝔣𝔤𝔥𝔦𝔧𝔨𝔩𝔪𝔫𝔬𝔭𝔮𝔯𝔰𝔱𝔲𝔳𝔴𝔵𝔶𝔷
11:08:59 <\oren\> all exist but fuck subscripts and superscirpts fuck me
11:09:09 <zzo38> Add a subscript N anyways if you want to
11:09:29 <oerjan> . o O ( 2034: researchers invent telepathy to avoid having to remember all the damn emojis )
11:09:47 <HackEgo> [U+1D520 MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR SMALL C] [U+1D521 MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR SMALL D] [U+1D522 MATHEMATICAL FRAKTUR SMALL E]
11:10:13 <wob_jonas> \oren\: um, excuse me but in what sense are OSes handling emojis specially? I thought text engines like pango have had methods to render full-color fonts for ages, not because of emojis, but because of fancy full-color header fonts (as opposed to grayscale) and to be able to render formatted text.
11:10:34 <wob_jonas> how are emoji characters any different from that really?
11:10:35 <int-e> I think I've complained about all those math letters before.
11:10:36 <hppavilion1> \oren\: The plural of "emoji" is "emoji" dammit
11:10:38 <\oren\> wob_jonas: microsoft now handles it with a special vector grahic generator
11:10:53 <hppavilion1> You know, having a separate font module for emoji actually makes sense
11:10:54 <int-e> hppavilion1: no need to get all emojional about it.
11:11:26 * int-e puts hppavilion1 back on ignore
11:12:18 <wob_jonas> oh, English irregular plural fight! now go on and discuss the plural of platypus too!
11:12:57 <int-e> I'd like to contest the notion that "emoji" is an English word.
11:14:02 <int-e> Smileys, emoticons, emojis... what's next?
11:14:25 <\oren\> look if the japanese can steal our words and use them wrong like ファイト then screw it
11:14:31 <int-e> Ems, because they're important enough to justify a single syllable word?
11:14:54 <HackEgo> [U+30D5 KATAKANA LETTER HU] [U+30A1 KATAKANA LETTER SMALL A] [U+30A4 KATAKANA LETTER I] [U+30C8 KATAKANA LETTER TO]
11:15:01 <oerjan> int-e: obviously you need to shorten it down to a single special character hth
11:15:06 <hppavilion1> \oren\: I need a subscript of family of 4- two male parents, one daughter, one son; left father is Fitz-Patrick 1 or 2, right father is fitz-patrick 6, daughter is fitz-patrick 3, son is fitz-patrick 5 with simultaneous superscript female doctor with her fitz-patrick 6 attorney wife
11:15:07 <wob_jonas> int-e: my take is that as phase 1 we should use regular plurals for everything in English, except for "man" and words obviously suffixed with it like "fireman"
11:15:21 <hppavilion1> \oren\: Oh, and they all need to be blackboard bold
11:15:24 <wob_jonas> and as phase 2 we should use regular plurals for everything
11:16:02 <HackEgo> U+1F3FB EMOJI MODIFIER FITZPATRICK TYPE-1-2 \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8f bb UTF-16BE: d83cdffb Decimal: 🏻 \ 🏻 \ Category: Sk (Symbol, Modifier) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F3FC EMOJI MODIFIER FITZPATRICK TYPE-3 \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8f bc UTF-16BE: d83cdffc Decimal: 🏼 \ 🏼 \ Category: Sk (Symbol, Modifier) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
11:16:04 <wob_jonas> but as of yet we're weak so I'm willing to compromise in co-authored text if the co-author is an obviously higher ranked mathematician and wants to write "indices"
11:16:15 <int-e> \oren\: what's that, "height"?
11:16:21 <\oren\> "FAITO", from english fight
11:16:49 <\oren\> means "go, my team" when cheering for a team sport
11:17:00 <\oren\> makes no fucking sense
11:17:24 <wob_jonas> language often doesn't make any sense, yes
11:17:25 <hppavilion1> \oren\: But what if I want to cheer on the team I don't like?
11:17:34 <int-e> sure does... you just transfer it from fighting sports like boxing to other sports.
11:20:43 <wob_jonas> how does she set bombs so quickly in succession?
11:21:50 <int-e> still some "games done quick" competition?
11:22:16 <zzo38> Make a non-Unicode font. That is how to handle it by don't handle it.
11:22:30 <wob_jonas> int-e: yes, I'm watching SNES Super Metroid 100% items from AGDQ 2017
11:23:07 <wob_jonas> "she" refers to Samus, who laid a lot of bombs to dig some tunnel from explodable blocks plus also killed some enemy with a bomb between
11:23:15 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Because you have a lot of fire.
11:23:17 <oerjan> my brain registers "how does she set bombs so quickly in succession?" as ungrammatical but cannot explain precisely why.
11:23:57 <oerjan> aspect or word order, or something
11:25:05 <olsner> hmm, sounds fine to me
11:25:35 <wob_jonas> next time, they should rig the stream to show the amounts for the save and kill competition in real time, continuously throughout the Super Metroid run
11:25:55 <wob_jonas> what would you say instead? is the problem with "set"?
11:27:14 <int-e> Seems like a perfectly fine sentence to me. I might insert a "the" before "bombs" but it's not really required.
11:27:28 <int-e> (just a sign of being german, I guess)
11:29:57 * oerjan calls lobotomy hotline
11:30:51 <wob_jonas> int-e: adding "the" sounds strange to me
11:30:58 <\oren\> ｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱｱ
11:31:16 <int-e> wob_jonas: it does affect the meaning :)
11:31:25 <wob_jonas> I could understand using different verbs, like "lay bombs" or whatever, or "can" instead of "does"
11:32:18 <wob_jonas> yeah, English overuses "can" a lot, even in places where it doesn't make sense. When I don't, that's obviously a sign that I'm not native English.
11:33:34 <int-e> . o O ( How do you do? ... How can you do? ... *runs* )
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11:35:36 <Jafet> fungot: the bomb, dmitri
11:35:36 <fungot> Jafet: what's +o?) yes... :p) i was
11:35:51 <\oren\> somebody set us up the bomb
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11:37:40 <Jafet> actually, the zero wing writer refrained from splitting that infinitive
11:38:03 <Jafet> s/infinitive/compound/
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11:39:15 <\oren\> somebody set up us the bomb
11:39:25 <\oren\> which sounds even worse
11:41:04 <\oren\> 機関士：何者かによって、爆発物が仕掛けられたようです。
11:42:02 <wob_jonas> but I said "set", not "set up". very much not the same.
11:42:35 <\oren\> what you said was fine
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11:43:13 <\oren\> would the phrase not work in norwegian
11:43:47 <\oren\> "how does she set bombs so quickly in succession"
11:44:02 <oerjan> well norwegian doesn't use the "does" construction...
11:44:42 <\oren\> would it end up being "sets" then?
11:44:55 <oerjan> we also don't inflect verbs for person :)
11:45:12 <oerjan> although i guess we do distinguish infinitive from present
11:45:47 <oerjan> not always in my dialect though
11:45:52 <int-e> oerjan: somehow that reference to a hotline made me think of http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/1993/04/30
11:45:53 <wob_jonas> and the freeze beam even freezes platforms
11:46:30 <int-e> ( http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/1992/10/26 is related)
11:46:30 <idris-bot> http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/1992/10/26 is related)<EOF>
11:47:08 <int-e> idris-bot: can you ignore me, please? :-P
11:47:13 <wob_jonas> what's wrong with inflecting verbs for person? it's a good thing, it lets you omit the subject from a lot of sentences. a lot of languages do it here in Europe.
11:48:01 <wob_jonas> it only sucks when the conjugation ends up being horribly irregular
11:48:13 <\oren\> wob_jonas: which is most of the time
11:48:20 <wob_jonas> yeah, that happens in most languages
11:48:33 <\oren\> and always with the most common verb
11:49:01 <\oren\> but japanese doesn't inflect for person
11:49:07 <wob_jonas> \oren\: if it's only with the most common verbs, that's not a problem. if it's with the two hundred most common verbs, like in French, that's a problem.
11:50:05 <wob_jonas> but Hungarian is even worse, you can't guess the most correct declination and conjugation forms even for rare words, so much that often different speakers don't agree what the correct declined form is of rarer words
11:50:48 <wob_jonas> at least in French all rare words are supposed to be, uh, "regular", as in, fall in one of like a dozen regular conjugations depending on its ending, unless it's an obviously prefixed form of some verb
11:51:03 <\oren\> japanese instead has irregular politeness forms like itadaku and gozaru
11:51:29 <wob_jonas> and English too only has like a few hundred irregular verbs, so once you learn about even the rare irregular ones, you're done
11:52:53 <wob_jonas> as a result, speakers *expect* rare English verbs to be regular, so if a rare verb like "heave" has irregular conjugated forms, then it also has the regular ones as alternatives
11:53:13 <wob_jonas> ("heave". seriously. who invents words like that?)
11:53:59 <\oren\> based on weave wove anyway
11:56:00 <\oren\> the worst ones are the ones where everything past the lest letter is replaced with aught
11:56:27 <wob_jonas> \oren\: apparently the irregular form might be more frequent in the particular nautical meaning, or something.
11:57:28 <\oren\> teach taught, buy bought, catch caught, fight fought,
11:57:59 <\oren\> and it's even spelled differently in half
11:59:03 <wob_jonas> and there's the horrible adjective "wrought" which isn't even the participle for any extant verb. no, not even of "wring".
11:59:21 <wob_jonas> \oren\: that would be draw draught, right?
11:59:28 <wob_jonas> draft is just an alternate spelling for draught
12:00:07 <wob_jonas> stink and blink should obviously follow the pattern of the more common drink
12:00:32 <\oren\> like japanese has irregualr stuff but at least after the war they fixed their spelling system
12:00:40 <wob_jonas> anyway, IMO the worst are the ones where the conjugation causes collisions. lie -> lay anyone?
12:02:00 <\oren\> oerjan: that's actually a fairly common usage in Toronto
12:02:10 <int-e> oerjan: what brought that on?
12:02:59 <wob_jonas> I stlil don't remember how that "lie" thing works. It has like two different random conjugations depending on the meaning
12:03:01 <int-e> . o O ( I guess "sing sought sought" is next... )
12:03:38 <wob_jonas> there were some other colliding ones too, but rarer so I don't remember
12:03:52 <wob_jonas> oerjan: isn't that peek poke system?
12:04:27 <oerjan> system? i hardly knew 'em
12:04:35 <wob_jonas> or maybe peek poke varptr defusr system in more modern variants
12:05:01 <\oren\> where one of those is a metal
12:05:15 <wob_jonas> \oren\: and one of them is lighting technology
12:05:41 <wob_jonas> and one of them is a rarer alternate name for dog leashes
12:07:14 <wob_jonas> one of the couch commentators in this has a strain accent I find hard to understand
12:08:34 <oerjan> . o O ( norwegian, being germanic, has irregular verbs fairly similar to english ones )
12:09:00 <\oren\> lie laid/lied lain/lied
12:10:04 <wob_jonas> \oren\: no way. it involves "lay" as a form somewhere
12:10:21 <\oren\> lay is also a verb in the present
12:10:58 <\oren\> as in "the chicken laid an egg"
12:11:21 <oerjan> ligge - lå - ligget, legge - la - lagt
12:11:41 <\oren\> "the man got laid" is the "lie laid lain"
12:12:22 <\oren\> it had better not be in the other sense of laid
12:13:04 <wob_jonas> so then what are the two or maybe three conjugations of "lie"?
12:13:09 <wob_jonas> and which one is for which meaning?
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12:14:18 <\oren\> lie - laid or layed - lain is for lying down in a bed
12:15:00 <\oren\> lie lied lied is for lying about where you had lain the previous night
12:16:46 <wob_jonas> though my dictionary doesn't agree
12:17:25 <wob_jonas> it says lie - lay - lain for the first meaning
12:18:03 <\oren\> i think lay also works
12:18:06 <wob_jonas> lie as in telling falsehoods is regular, so lie - lied - lied
12:18:29 <wob_jonas> and for the transitive verb, lay - laid - laid
12:19:20 <wob_jonas> in total this means that lie has four different past tense forms: lied, lay, laid, layed
12:20:27 <\oren\> meh in this particular case native speakers are confused too so youre all good
12:21:47 <\oren\> to me "I laid on the bed" sounds right but the dictionary doesn't like that so wtf i dunno
12:25:36 <wob_jonas> actually, let me check my other dictionary now
12:28:47 <int-e> "I laid myself down on the bed" :P
12:31:41 <wob_jonas> it's confusing because in English there aren't too many such pairs where the transitive and intransitive verb are different but close
12:31:47 <wob_jonas> another pair is "rise" and "raise"
12:32:02 <wob_jonas> which also involves some irregular conjugation related to flowers or something
12:32:35 <int-e> but rise/rose/risen does not conflict with raise/raised/raised
12:33:19 <int-e> unlike lie/lay/lain(!) and lay/laid/laid
12:35:01 <int-e> and there's lie/lied/lied, so confusing.
12:35:46 <int-e> (which isn't a verb)
12:36:38 <wob_jonas> and "die" which also means like four different things
12:37:41 <wob_jonas> ceasing to live, paint, a mold as in container in which you pour molten metal or plastic to make it assume some particular form, and throwing dice for games of chance
12:37:48 <wob_jonas> some of those might be related, I don't know
12:45:11 <wob_jonas> I know this is obvious, but a 100% run was a good idea, because it shows up parts of the game you never see in other runs
12:46:48 <int-e> . o O ( is "twice" the plural of "twie"? )
12:58:02 <^v> . o O /\ | |
13:00:39 <wob_jonas> I was stupid and messed up this jeans by washing it together with some new woolen socks at high temperature, so now it's all full of alien strands stuck onto it, and I can't get them off even by rewashing it multiple times. I'm now down to only one way that can fix it.
13:02:07 <^v> shit i do at 6 AM during hackathon https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/198658294007463936/272703774798118912/20170122_061614.jpg
13:02:16 <int-e> ^v: http://sprunge.us/WMie
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13:03:57 <wob_jonas> ^v: what's that? brainfuck to C translation?
13:04:34 <int-e> hangman in brainfuck?
13:05:28 <int-e> but yeah, that's very blurry. I think it says "readme" in one place
13:05:51 <int-e> (which better corresponds to the code)
13:07:59 <^v> the top left is instruction reference
13:08:05 <^v> bottom left if/else
13:08:26 <^v> right is some obscure C++ code
13:17:01 <wob_jonas> I didn't eve know there's an x-ray specs in this game
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13:18:43 <izabera> http://ismycreditcardstolen.com/
13:19:09 <int-e> izabera: good one.
13:19:30 <int-e> though I wonder why it doesn't ask for a CVC code?
13:19:45 <wob_jonas> the music of this game is still amazing
13:21:12 <wob_jonas> int-e: because they already know that your CVC code is 476
13:22:14 <int-e> so... why does that website use google analytics..
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13:28:54 <int-e> too bad they took the http://ismycreditcardstolen.com/vbvleftnavverified.gif out (though of course for a good reason)
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14:47:54 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your wise @messages-lord fanfic oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Glasswegian who dislikes Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience; but lately it's the only word he can ever remember. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
14:51:17 <wob_jonas> he's a @messages-lord now? must be a recent change
14:55:59 <boilyphone> Wob_jellonas. I believe that bit was added awhile ago.
14:57:00 <wob_jonas> I'm not good at using mercurial so I don't know how to check easily, but whatever
14:57:25 <int-e> boilyphone won't see boily's @messages
14:57:57 <wob_jonas> I can't keep the usage syntax of a dozen different vcs in my head.
14:58:11 <wob_jonas> Computer can handle all of them being installed of course.
14:58:15 <int-e> a dozen seems a bit much...
14:58:24 <boilyphone> Int-ello. That's because I'm on my phone, ircing from bed.
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14:59:03 <lambdabot> oerjan said 12h 46m 26s ago: i assess that chicken to be misspelled
14:59:03 <lambdabot> int-e said 4h 15m 32s ago: ants --> Langton
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14:59:53 <int-e> git mercurial darcs svn cvs rcs, I think those are the ones that I've used and rcs doesn't really count.
15:00:27 <wob_jonas> int-e: slightly, yes. I use git and subversion regularly, but I've had to use a lot of others one-off to checkout individual repositories when the data was only available that way: cvs, bazaar (really), mercurial, darcs, fossil, and that's only the ones I remember.
15:01:11 <int-e> I've heard of monotone, bazaar and fossil.
15:02:04 <wob_jonas> also, a few months ago my co-worker said they're making a new vcs in work time, for some particular purpose connected to a project at work. I asked him if they looked at all the other existing software and made sure none of them is suitable. they said no.
15:02:21 <wob_jonas> luckily it's not something I'll have to work with directly.
15:03:27 <wob_jonas> If it counts, I've also used several wikis that have built-in version control for their content.
15:04:39 <wob_jonas> And of course I've also used management's version control (copies of a file with version numbers in their filename).
15:04:55 <wob_jonas> And I've used diff/patch/diff3 directly a lot too.
15:05:22 <wob_jonas> Sometimes those help even together with a higher-level vcs.
15:07:34 <wob_jonas> I don't think I ever used monotone.
15:08:26 <wob_jonas> Well, hopefully "soon" ais's scapegoat will end the vcs wars forever, because it will be better than all other vcses.
15:10:35 <wob_jonas> boilyphone: no, because ais does talk about scapegoat's design. it's more like just vaporware, more vaporware than aimake4 or the uncursed2
15:10:45 <wob_jonas> it's a lot of work to write a good vcs
15:11:22 <wob_jonas> I have some vague ideas too, but I'll probably never implement them
15:11:42 <wob_jonas> and I'm not even sure if my ideas are consistent
15:11:53 <wob_jonas> as in, what I want to do might be logically impossible
15:12:39 <wob_jonas> what I should do is learn a little of mercurial to find out what its advantages and drawbacks are
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15:23:18 <int-e> Mercurial reminds me of Athur Dent's attempts to get some tea. It's a VCS almost, but not quite, entirely unlike git.
15:25:20 <int-e> It has a sound foundation but its UI keeps tripping me up...
15:28:03 <wob_jonas> solid foundation but bad UI sounds like git, yes
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15:39:17 <wob_jonas> which is strange because you'd think if someone decides to make a new vcs, then having to add a sane UI is the one lesson they'd learn from git
15:42:16 <int-e> do you realize that mercurial and git are pretty much the same age?
15:44:16 <wob_jonas> int-e: no, I thought mercurial is newer, because people seem to define it as better than git
15:45:13 <wob_jonas> or maybe that's only every other vcs that does that, mercurial doesn't?
15:45:24 <wob_jonas> I think I've met mercurial later than git
15:53:37 <wob_jonas> if it's as old as git then I guess it's undrestandible
15:56:04 <int-e> http://marc.info/?l=git&m=111475459526688&w=2 is the earliest mail I can readily find about mercurial.
15:56:48 <int-e> (but there's probably a couple before that on the main lkml)
16:01:22 <int-e> I should ask wikipedia, which links to http://lkml.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0504.2/0670.html
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17:36:50 <izabera> https://twitter.com/FAKKU/status/822594891339403267
17:53:10 * int-e goes find some bleach to wash the sight from his eyes.
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18:35:23 <wob_jonas> \oren\: is that a list of characters? or does it mean something?
18:39:49 <\oren\> wob_jonas: a list of the characters I've added today
18:42:29 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: the nice thing about SNES is it was designed (as well as they could at the time) to be as extensible as possible from the cartridge
18:44:08 <Zarutian> makes it sometimes pain in the arse to emulate for though.
18:48:10 <pikhq> Yeah, the cartridge can freaking bus-master.
18:48:26 <pikhq> It might not be the best way to make it extensible, but it's definitely flexible.
18:53:21 <int-e> so did they ever make games that came with their own coprocessor?
18:54:40 <FireFly> I believe some of the later games came with on-cartridge processors more powerful than the SNES itself...
18:56:15 <FireFly> "ST018 is used for AI functionality in Hayazashi Nidan Morita Shogi 2. It is a 21.47 MHz, 32-bit ARMv3 processor.[7]"
18:56:52 <FireFly> Kind of crazy compared to the SNES's CPU
18:57:06 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_NES_enhancement_chips has lots of other fun chips, too
18:58:54 <wob_jonas> FireFly: yeah. Then there's those laser printers from the late 1990s that had immensely powerful processor and memory in them.
18:59:15 <Zarutian> just to intrepret postscript iirc
18:59:22 <wob_jonas> We had one at home at one point, and while it wasn't actually more powerful than the desktop computer, it was in the same league.
18:59:48 <wob_jonas> These days we have powerful video cards instead, with RAM amount sometimes comparable to the main RAM.
19:00:01 <pikhq> int-e: Also, the SuperFX chips were coprocessors.
19:01:31 <wob_jonas> FireFly: admittedly, laser printers sort of need to have a whole page sized high resolution frame buffer, unlike dot matrix printers, which can get away with just like 512 byte of memory or even less.
19:03:58 <Zarutian> wob_jones: or that dot matrix printer a friend of mine owns, it is connected via parallel port and each pin just control diffrent action or senses something.
19:06:21 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: wow... that's like floppy disk and hard disk connectors, but those are internal to the case, and don't have to direct eight pins, so it's much easier.
19:06:29 <wob_jonas> I didn't know such a thing existed.
19:06:37 <pikhq> Which is a bit unusual for old parallel-attached printers.
19:06:57 <pikhq> Most of them used ASCII right over the cable.
19:07:22 <wob_jonas> I think I know there's a cheap dot matrix printer with no character buffer in it, so it can have even less RAM (and so needs even more continuous attention of the cpu than usual), but wow.
19:07:43 <wob_jonas> pikhq: ASCII or uncompressed bitmap graphics, yes
19:08:30 <wob_jonas> How do you even control such a printer? Do you need a special controller card in front of the parallel port? Or an unusually fast cpu?
19:08:34 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: yeah, it was rather cheapish for its time but could do graphics, if you had the correct software.
19:10:06 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: no, not unusually fast cpu. The thing took its time to work.
19:10:39 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: how much damage could you cause with it if the software was buggy?
19:11:02 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: made it rather easy for my friend to get it working with an arduino though. Loud as hell but does carbon paper nicely
19:11:31 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: not much as there were hardware interlocks and such in it.
19:11:38 <wob_jonas> Would it just print outside of the paper to the rubber drum, or would it like pop all apart so you can't even reassemble it, break the expensive head, and catch fire?
19:12:41 <Zarutian> yeah printing on the rubber drum happened but it was much a deal. Just remember to wipe it before the next page.
19:14:15 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: how many pins does it have?
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19:15:04 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: dont remember but not that many
19:15:14 <pikhq> o.O' ECP parallel defined *DMA* over parallel?
19:15:36 <wob_jonas> I don't think anyone makes printers with less than seven pins.
19:16:12 <Zarutian> printed half line of characters at the time iirc
19:16:43 <Zarutian> or was it 1x8? I truely dont remember
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19:16:59 <wob_jonas> Wandel did build a one-dot printer back in the day => http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/tech/printer.html
19:18:33 <Zarutian> though there was software (written in FigForth iirc) that could do nice line graph plots on that printer.
19:19:07 <Zarutian> as the rubber drum could be stepped back and forth like the printer head.
19:19:53 <wob_jonas> 3x3 would be strange. you have to drag the head all the way through the paper, so I don't think more than one column is worth
19:20:08 <wob_jonas> having a longer column with 9 or 16 pins can be worth, but it's expensive
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19:21:32 <Zarutian> it did bolding by slightly shifting the rubber drum and reprinting the text or stuff to be reprinted
19:22:22 <\oren\> http://www.sentex.net/~mwandel/tech/plotter.html
19:22:51 <wob_jonas> \oren\: yes, I know, what about it?
19:23:36 <Zarutian> but here is something that has puzzled me a bit regarding homecomputer magazines in the era of the 6502 is that there didnt seem to be any diy paperpunches or at least paper readers described anywhere in them.
19:24:19 <\oren\> wob_jonas: well he apparently created vector fonts from scratch
19:24:38 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: isn't that because they had casette drives at that time, which was way more efficient than ticker tape?
19:25:14 <wob_jonas> \oren\: dunno, I'm a software guy, so I find building and maintaining the hardware more impressive
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19:27:23 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: well, casettes were semi nice for keeping relatively lot of data. But I am talking about less than a kilobyte or so and it was often easier to optain paper than casettes. Even newpaper could have worked in a pinch.
19:28:04 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: casettes were easy to obtain too.
19:28:26 <wob_jonas> As for a kilobyte of data, you just type that in the keyboard. Unless you have like a zx80 with those horrible keys.
19:29:13 <Zarutian> or that Polish one with 17 keys (4x4 hex plus the I key from a picture I saw)
19:31:14 <Zarutian> dont recall its name. But it was rather extensible design as you could add a real keyboard, diskette drive and so on via daisy chained ribbon cables.
19:33:03 <Zarutian> talking about membrane keyboards, I heard that new designs have started to use the capacitance touch tech to do away with the wearout on the keys.
19:33:43 <Zarutian> I like switch based keyboard for their feel but detest the amount of noise the buckle spring ones make.
19:34:01 <wob_jonas> The IBM PC was also a very extensible design. You would add extra RAM and all other sorts of extension cards to the card slots on the motherboard. A video card is practically a mandatory addition.
19:34:19 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: there are more silent switch keyboards I hear.
19:34:50 <wob_jonas> I bought a nice heavy noisy one for home a few months ago. Here the noise doesn't matter.
19:35:00 <Zarutian> yeah, IBM PC came rather bit later than say Apple ][ or.
19:35:21 <zzo38> I like the original PC keyboard
19:35:21 <wob_jonas> It's so noisy the springs sometimes even *echo* for a few tenths of a second after letting the key go.
19:35:38 <wob_jonas> But sadly spring keyboards are expensive these dasy.
19:35:47 <Zarutian> wob_jonas: I dont like the noise. Heck, I try to find ways to make fans less noisy
19:35:49 <zzo38> They had a good quality. The only problem was the lack of lights on the keyboard.
19:35:53 <wob_jonas> The keyboards themselves are expensive, and so is the shipping.
19:36:16 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: fans, sure. It's different. The keyboard is noisy only when I'm typing on it, and then it doesn't bother me.
19:36:20 <Zarutian> you can bludgeon someone to death in two strikes with these keyboards.
19:36:31 <wob_jonas> It's like how the sudden movements of the car bother you much less if you're driving it.
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19:39:07 <wob_jonas> Zarutian: no, the XT keyboard only has 83, the AT one has 101
19:39:34 <wob_jonas> This one I'm typing on has 104 keys, though in a somewhat unusual layout:
19:40:12 <wob_jonas> the left side is like that of a 104 key keyboard, but the right side with the shift and enter key is placed like a 105 key keyboard, with a long backspace and the backslash next to the enter.
19:40:34 <wob_jonas> The springs on this keyboard are a bit too heavy though, I should buy a weaker one the next time I buy a keyboard.
19:41:00 <wob_jonas> The biggest problem I have is with the shift. Sometimes I fail to press shift at the same time as the key it's supposed to modify.
19:41:22 <wob_jonas> So I type / at the end of questions even more often than with other keybards.
19:41:34 <wob_jonas> But even apart from the shift, the springs feel too strong.
19:41:48 <wob_jonas> Definitely need a weaker one next time (which won't be until some years I guess).
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21:18:13 <HackEgo> relevant info//The large-eyed mouse lemur is a nocturnal tree-dweller.
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