←2017-02-03 2017-02-04 2017-02-05→ ↑2017 ↑all
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01:50:36 <zzo38> \oren\: The program is not written in C though; it is JavaScript
01:51:09 <zzo38> The file format used by SQLite4 may do, but I do not have the implementation in JavaScript
01:51:26 <DHeadshot> There's a version 4 of sqlite?
01:51:45 <DHeadshot> Website just lists 3 I think...
01:52:53 <zzo38> There is; version 4 uses a key/value storage as a backend storage format, where the key and value are both binary data. However I only needed a number as the key and not arbitrary data.
01:54:30 <shachaf> What's wrong with a format that supports arbitrary data as the key?
01:54:59 <zzo38> Mainly, is overdoing for my purpose.
01:56:01 <shachaf> Is sqlite4's key-value database good?
01:56:26 <shachaf> They say it's faster than LevelDB but they don't say for what. For everything?
01:56:27 <zzo38> I don't know actually
01:56:37 <zzo38> I have never used it
02:11:15 <krok_> i literally haven't seen any discussion of esoteric languages since i first joined this channel
02:13:36 <yorick> I should talk here, otherwise people forget I exist
02:13:45 <yorick> krok_: it happens sometimes
02:13:52 <yorick> I've seen it once or twice. I've been here for years
02:14:00 <zzo38> krok_: We don't always have, but if you have question about them, you can ask
02:14:16 <krok_> zzo38: thanks
02:27:09 <DHeadshot> I really ought to post my language somewhere so I can add it to the Wiki and have a source...
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03:08:06 <doesthiswork> I though the MtG stuff was esoteric-related
03:13:53 <alercah> tfw an entire evening of coding amounts to figuring out how to get the compiler installed
03:13:59 <alercah> thanks, cabal
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03:41:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Urbanangel * New user account
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04:17:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50833&oldid=50824 * Urbanangel * (+204) /* Introductions */
04:17:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50834 * Urbanangel * (+1400) Created page with "=== How it works === There are two variables, known as variable1 and variable2. You change these to manipulate code, output ASCII characters and change your position in the co..."
04:17:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50835&oldid=50834 * Urbanangel * (+1) /* Commands */
04:17:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50836&oldid=50835 * Urbanangel * (-1) /* Commands */
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04:19:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50837&oldid=50836 * Urbanangel * (-4) /* Hello World */
04:19:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50838&oldid=50837 * Urbanangel * (+1) /* Hello World */
04:19:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sd]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50839&oldid=50838 * Urbanangel * (+0) /* Hello World */
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07:22:51 <\oren\> suppose I have a set of exactly 4 values. would it be faster to call qsort or to do some fixed set of compare and swaps
07:23:58 <\oren\> more generally, at what fixed array size does it become faster to call a sort function than to do some fixed set of
07:24:18 <\oren\> if(a[i]>a[j])swap(a,i,j);
07:24:31 <\oren\> statements
07:25:06 <\oren\> I can sort 4 values with 5 compare swaps
07:28:52 <\oren\> not sure about 6
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07:31:33 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorting_network hth
07:32:53 <izabera> qsort is a generic function
07:33:13 <izabera> it's never faster than any alternative
07:33:37 <izabera> calling an indirect function instead of cmp is too expensive
07:38:02 <\oren\> izabera: ok, but at what point does a sorting network become less efficient than an algorithm where ther sequence of comparisons is not fixed?
07:38:22 <\oren\> shachaf: thanks for the pointer
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08:33:43 <Jafet> qsort may be faster if the program runs for less time than the programmer spent writing it
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12:07:13 <int-e> `? password
12:07:14 <HackEgo> The password of the month is AАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑAАΑ
12:07:23 <int-e> `learn The password of the month is n9y25ah7
12:07:25 <HackEgo> Relearned 'password': The password of the month is n9y25ah7
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13:34:48 <boily> `wisdom
13:34:50 <HackEgo> maple//Maples are the sacred trees of Canada, from which a true Canadian can make anything.
13:34:53 <fizzie> int-e: Aqenbpuu.
13:34:55 <boily> WOOHOO!
13:35:18 <nooga> I always liked maples
13:35:20 <fizzie> boily: You don't have to be that happy it was about Canada.
13:35:41 <boily> the HackEgo is alive!
13:36:19 <int-e> fizzie: I'm sure we can have two potms for a good cause
13:45:21 <Phantom_Hoover> `? mapole
13:45:22 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6’ by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
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14:11:19 <boily> `relcome VisualizeR
14:11:21 <HackEgo> VisualizeR: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
14:12:00 <VisualizeR> hi boily, thanks for having me.
14:22:46 <int-e> so polite
14:22:49 <int-e> fungot: help!
14:22:49 <fungot> int-e: not running os x, you don't ever *have* to do that.
14:29:12 <boily> VisualizeR: what brings you here? do you like esolanging? what is your stance about roast beef?
14:30:25 <VisualizeR> I'm designing games, so I'm an artist. but I figured this is more about programming which I'm not so good at. roast beef is fine once in a month but I wouldn't want to have it any day.
14:31:18 <boily> nice! yes, this is about programming, at least the moments it is about programming...
14:32:02 <VisualizeR> haha yeah its always good to tunnel and come back some place and socialize, right?
14:33:46 <VisualizeR> I just set up freenode and the user count in the list was promising. so..is this about esoterics or not? and if so how is it connected to order information? does it help to shape benefitial thought patterns? what is the goal?
14:36:15 <boily> esoteric programming is fringe programming. it is exploring the limits of its meaning through creativity, poetry, absurdity and mental ankle sprains.
14:38:00 <VisualizeR> I'm aware of what esoterics is but I don't see how that helps in developing an efficient language. a coder might understand a side joke you put in there on purpose, but the computer running it doesn't.
14:40:17 <boily> we don't usually care about efficiency, just possibility. of course we sometimes discuss about regular languages.
14:41:40 <boily> there are a few mathematicians in this channel, a bunch of software developers, many bots, one cyborg, and fungot.
14:41:41 <fungot> boily: it would need bindings to c++ and see what happens? did you try to index it out of two apples, a roll of string and a piece of functional perl: perl -e ' print &&sub my f shift; return sub my n shift; return 1 if n 2; return &&f(f)(n-1) &&f(f)(n-2); )(8), " deep copies" and " after
14:42:06 <nooga> this
14:43:06 <nooga> VisualizeR: esolangs are games in some sense
14:43:17 <int-e> . o O ( I suspect boily's better at spraining ankles than most )
14:44:20 -!- int-e has set topic: The international hub for Esoteric Mentalism | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
14:44:35 <int-e> `? pun
14:44:36 <HackEgo> Puns are fun. Ask shachaf about them. But beware of Muphry adding misspellings.
14:44:53 <VisualizeR> I see, you're meta philosophising about how it should be and how to get there. in order to make possibilities graspable I'd always try to visualize them. So personally I think visual coding is the best way to achieve permutations when you already set up a system. the end user should be able to operate it at will and create them.
14:46:40 <int-e> boily: wait, a cyborg?
14:47:46 <boily> myndzi.
14:48:04 <int-e> ^celebrate
14:48:04 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
14:48:15 <int-e> seems broken.
14:48:25 <int-e> well, absent really :)
14:48:48 <int-e> we still need a spider who talks about endoskeletons ( https://xkcd.com/1530/ )
14:49:17 <int-e> `? golf
14:49:18 <HackEgo> Golf is the shortest game known. The goal is to get a ball into a hole with a single stroke.
14:50:58 <myname> technically correct
14:51:09 <nooga> well, I thought about this recently and it occured to me that programming can be seen as just "instructing machines to take information from one abstract place, transform it and then put it in another abstract place"
14:51:53 <myname> your point being?
14:52:16 <nooga> but there are no constraints on the form of information and the machines at all
14:52:58 <VisualizeR> yup basically like ribosomes copying snippets of dna to form proteins, translation and transcription
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14:53:50 <nooga> for instance, yes
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14:59:17 <nooga> so then, visual programming is just another notation that helps people to think about what goes where and how the computation looks like
14:59:47 <nooga> but there are machines all the way down
15:00:41 <VisualizeR> they're just tools that compute faster
15:01:51 <nooga> but you can do that without any special "visual language"
15:02:17 <VisualizeR> a modular system that allows for combinations is the best system to have in my eyes. sure it only involves everything within system, bus this is why you need to made sure it has support for extentions.
15:02:50 <VisualizeR> the general user doesn't know about coding, they're used to moving a mouse and clicking stuff
15:04:15 <boily> functional programming is about that: transforming functions into other functions, and composing those functions together. it lends pretty well to visual and dataflow programming.
15:04:17 <VisualizeR> i'm thinking about better ways to teach kids programming right from the start because it can help them way better in the world we're heading to.
15:04:56 <boily> I think Lego NXT is the best effort out there to engage the next generation with programming.
15:05:54 <nooga> functional
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15:07:12 <nooga> I like minecraft, especially the tech mods
15:07:44 <VisualizeR> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN5mQxX-Zd0 I'm thinking about this game called codespells. they did it very well
15:08:24 <nooga> it's great stuff, it can teach you how to design scalable, distributed systems without ever mentioning it
15:10:05 <nooga> one problem with visual programming systems, such as puredata, is that eventually you end up with an unholy mess of wires
15:11:24 <nooga> and usually they don't implement any kind of metaprogramming facilities
15:12:49 <VisualizeR> isn't this regular capsuling of scripts?
15:12:50 <nooga> which is hard to visualise because it suddenly needs more dimensions
15:13:17 <nooga> yes, that's one dimension
15:14:19 <nooga> but how about having a block that can transform and spawn given subgraps and is programmed visually itself?
15:15:10 <VisualizeR> simply open up another type of scripts for every within that subsystem
15:15:31 <VisualizeR> *object
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15:17:41 <nooga> I'm not sure if that would be enough to go meta
15:20:56 <VisualizeR> it has to be self-sustaining, be relevant as a program and on top of that it can influence society. that is the meta level, so there needs to be hubs on each section branching to the subsystems depending on the desired content
15:21:11 <nooga> as for the kids... there should be something like "SICP for kids"
15:22:02 <boily> http://landoflisp.com/ ?
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15:22:58 <nooga> yeeeeaaahhh but without mentioning LISP
15:24:32 <nooga> just uh, teaching youngsters about computation without imposing any particular programming system
15:25:33 <nooga> because this kind of thinking isn't much harder to learn than algebra
15:26:05 <nooga> and gives you something that laymen see as a superpower
15:26:41 <nooga> you can tell machines what to do and use them to make changes in the world
15:27:23 <nooga> brb
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15:30:25 <VisualizeR> personally I think the biggest problem nowadays is we have too much freedom on one hand and too little of it on the other. it would require teaching them why it is beneficial. it needs something like an entry drug and games are perfect for that. this is about having one option or many to choose from and most people stick to one thing after they have found "their" thing.
15:32:19 <VisualizeR> so when you talk to people about why they should use this particular language you use and why they should too this is like talknig about religion or other products. our personal view biases us into limiting our own view. we like to go to the biggest system around and simply go with it. I know this doesn't apply to you guys.
15:32:23 <VisualizeR> just saying that it is free will if people choose to have one or many options
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15:53:39 <mroman> I think visual programming is great for domain specific things.
15:54:40 <mroman> but anyway
15:54:46 <mroman> the difficulty in programming is not the way you do it.
15:54:54 <mroman> whether it's a graphical language or a non-graphical one
15:55:05 <mroman> A for loop is a for loop.
15:56:36 <VisualizeR> who decides that the logic used within is the best there is?
15:58:18 <mroman> http://codepad.org/snRrxLzj <- there
15:58:26 <mroman> that's the transcript from the codespells video
15:58:38 <mroman> aside that there are no blue, pink, green boxes around the text
15:58:41 <mroman> it's literally the same thing.
15:59:19 <mroman> it's just a fancier way of displaying text.
15:59:22 <mroman> that's pretty much it.
16:00:10 <VisualizeR> that is exactly what is needed ^^ synesthetics help to differentiate content
16:00:26 <VisualizeR> *synaesthesia
16:00:49 <boily> VisualizeR: people who write compilers and core libraries decide what is, within a given programming language, the Best Way To Do Things™.
16:01:13 <VisualizeR> i totally understood what you mean tho, the logic is the same but the presentation differs
16:01:16 <mroman> and what boily said
16:01:25 <mroman> people don't decide what language to use on the language.
16:01:34 <mroman> they decide it on the language's ecosystems.
16:01:54 <mroman> because most languages are pretty much the same, same powerful so language differences are mostly completely irrelevant.
16:01:57 <boily> the semantic of what you write is independent of the actual physical process that happens in your machine. what mroman said: a for loop is a for loop.
16:02:09 <mroman> the only real constraints anymore are memory management and type safety
16:02:56 <VisualizeR> so they're like different tools, each one is best for a specific task
16:03:08 <mroman> languages?
16:03:09 <mroman> no.
16:03:27 <mroman> you can translate pretty much any language easily into any other language
16:03:36 <mroman> you can easily translate perl to python, python to ruby, ruby to php
16:03:38 <mroman> no problem.
16:04:07 <boily> all mainstream languages are (almost) mathematically equivalent. it's just the subjective ease you can describe a task in a programming language that will differ from another one.
16:04:12 <VisualizeR> so what is best for the ecosystem then?
16:04:24 <mroman> these languages are mostly only different in syntax
16:04:30 <mroman> and syntax is easy to "translate"
16:04:33 <VisualizeR> yep got that
16:04:55 <mroman> the problem is that you can't translate library calls because they don't have the same libraries.
16:05:16 <VisualizeR> this makes some languages more efficient in certain tasks, right?
16:05:40 <mroman> although to be fair they have different OOP so some edge-cases are probably a bit harder to translate
16:05:42 <boily> you're always building upon previous work. a task may be easier in one language because some guy did the grunt work for you.
16:05:59 <mroman> but these details aren't really what you decide on which languages you should use.
16:06:10 <mroman> Why do people use PHP for webdev?
16:06:15 <mroman> very simple.
16:06:21 <mroman> because it's installed everywhere on free hosters.
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16:06:27 <LKoen> because they don't know about javascript
16:06:38 <mroman> why do people use javascript for webdev?
16:06:43 <mroman> because there's no other language available.
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16:07:20 <mroman> people mostly use python because it has a HUGE set of packages available
16:08:13 <mroman> so good ecosystem means
16:08:30 <mroman> a.) lots of packages b.) lots of bindings to c libraries (such as gtk, databases, etc. etc.)
16:09:01 <mroman> In python i can do import rest; rest.call('/method', blurks);
16:09:12 <mroman> but that's not because of python it's because somebody took the time to write a nice package
16:09:23 <mroman> in haskell I'd probably have to set up http requests manually and stuff like that
16:09:34 <VisualizeR> so the most important part are those core libraries which define the functions the language will have. it probably is a child of the time and can't possibily fit any future needs, right? so it is about keeping it alive and up to date.
16:09:39 <mroman> so if I just want to do some rest request I'll probably use python, even though I don't like python as a language.
16:10:21 <boily> VisualizeR: core libraries are in constant fluctuation. active development is perpetual, to fix security bugs, add new features, optimize stuff...
16:10:25 <mroman> in the prof. java/js scene it's more about frameworks even
16:10:30 <mroman> you don't look for a javascript developer
16:10:31 <mroman> nope
16:10:37 <mroman> you look for somebody who knows angular
16:10:44 <mroman> or whatever your company is using.
16:11:01 <mroman> java it's the same
16:11:06 <mroman> guice, spring ....
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16:12:10 <mroman> you can give a kid a visual programming IDE
16:12:18 <mroman> but it won't write a dijkstra in it
16:12:20 <mroman> :D
16:12:42 <mroman> because the kid knows shit about algorithms and math and science
16:13:29 <VisualizeR> exactly this is why a game is good, it can see the strength of the avatar change with the numbers
16:13:37 <mroman> the only point I could agree on is that visual programming might make kids more motivitated to code
16:13:43 <mroman> but not because it makes it any easier or different
16:13:50 <mroman> but because it looks more interesting to little kids
16:13:57 <VisualizeR> true, I agree
16:13:59 <mroman> because it's presented in colours.
16:14:28 <mroman> CBS presents this program in colour.
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16:15:07 <mroman> I know nothing about how red eye correction works
16:15:19 <mroman> but if you give me a function "red-eye-correction(Image img);" I can do it
16:16:33 <VisualizeR> ^^
16:17:10 <mroman> the existence of that function is much more important than the language.
16:17:21 <mroman> or IDE
16:17:23 <mroman> or editor
16:17:24 <VisualizeR> I'm rather in need of procedual textures combined with procedual music and a detection of the music the manipulate the textures and animations with
16:17:24 <mroman> or whatever
16:17:34 <VisualizeR> *that
16:19:53 <mroman> that's why you can teach people to write apps
16:20:07 <mroman> without teaching them anything about algorithms and stuff
16:20:10 <mroman> no need to know
16:20:57 <mroman> which is good. I don't oppose that. but I still think anything related to visual programming is too hyped
16:21:35 <mroman> most people used vb6 because it had an UI to write GUI code.
16:22:01 <mroman> that's a useful application of "visual programming" but it's very domain specific.
16:22:24 <VisualizeR> like you initially said
16:23:15 <mroman> what's also a good use is to have some model you can visually create and then write codegenerators for that
16:23:32 <mroman> CIRO or whatever that was called
16:23:47 <mroman> you can describe state machines in that, then generate the code for it.
16:24:04 <mroman> then you only need to write code to read/write from pins/io ports manually
16:24:12 <mroman> i.e. used for embedded systems
16:24:36 <mroman> that's also a good application for "visual programming" but also domain specific as it's limited to state machines and i/o systems
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16:27:48 <mroman> not that I think video games are a goodthing.
16:27:50 <mroman> but meh.
16:28:02 <mroman> I'm probably the only computer scientist that actually hates most of the computer related stuff :D
16:28:15 <mroman> like facebook
16:28:17 <mroman> or video games
16:28:23 <mroman> or social media sites
16:28:27 <mroman> except IRC of course.
16:28:37 <mroman> IRC is great. It's true. Best chat in the world.
16:29:08 <mroman> or dating apps
16:29:10 <int-e> hmm, you know that there are offline video games that you can play all by yourself in your own time, no pressure?
16:29:21 <nooga> I hate computers too
16:29:30 <mroman> offline games are fine iff they have splitscreen.
16:29:34 <nooga> I don't like to care about them as machines
16:29:53 <mroman> dating apps is a pretty bad invention.
16:29:55 <int-e> computers are nice as long as they work
16:30:06 <mroman> It seems like it benefits everybody but it actually doesn't.
16:30:19 <int-e> sometimes they're also fun to trouble-shoot, but basically only when I don't actually urgently need them
16:30:19 <nooga> yeah, they should work and it's technicians' job to tend to them
16:30:31 <mroman> and software is mostly crap
16:30:37 <mroman> and OS are mostly crap too
16:30:41 <mroman> from a security perspective
16:30:53 <int-e> so far the solution to the software problem has been to write more software
16:30:57 <int-e> find the mistake.
16:31:10 <nooga> thing is
16:31:11 <mroman> you need built-in "selinux" stuff in your OS
16:31:14 <mroman> then we can talk about security
16:31:15 <mroman> otherwise
16:31:18 <mroman> nope.
16:31:37 <int-e> selinux?
16:31:44 <nooga> this field is so vast, you can zoom in and out, circle the globe and read everything
16:31:51 <mroman> you know... very fine grained ACL for processes, users, file systems etc.
16:31:52 <int-e> I think ASLR is the only "security" feature that's really in use here...
16:32:19 <nooga> and you still can't have a consistent idea about how everything works
16:32:21 <int-e> mroman: I'm vaguely aware, I think is a fair description.
16:32:26 <mroman> rm -rf /home/$USER
16:32:41 <int-e> mroman: *poof*
16:32:48 <mroman> you can send a windows guy a bat file del /S %HOME%/Documents
16:32:51 <mroman> if he double clicks it
16:32:52 <mroman> he's fucked
16:33:01 <mroman> that's how good security is on modern operating systems.
16:33:07 <int-e> does / work for \ there?
16:33:13 <mroman> probably not
16:33:14 <mroman> :D
16:33:20 <mroman> my admin days are behind me
16:33:35 <mroman> It works in some cases
16:33:52 <mroman> but that's probably python/java secretly translating / to \
16:34:01 <int-e> I encountered http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/ these days, fun to read.
16:34:18 <mroman> if you have a bug in Word.exe
16:34:21 <mroman> it can delete all your documents
16:34:25 <mroman> I don't call that security.
16:34:41 <mroman> I have talked with people at work about how to solve the problem
16:34:49 <mroman> but they just laughed at me and told me "It'll never happen"
16:34:53 <mroman> and I guess they are right.
16:35:01 <mroman> There's no money in security apparentely
16:35:12 <int-e> right
16:35:18 <int-e> there's money in selling AV products
16:35:25 <mroman> yeah
16:35:27 <nooga> sigh
16:35:29 <mroman> but that's a crappy solution to the problem.
16:35:40 <int-e> it's not a solution
16:35:43 <int-e> it's just crap.
16:35:53 <nooga> I remember the times when you got a CIH on a floppy with pirated game and it fried your motherboard
16:36:02 <mroman> they've been bragging about heuristics for 10 years now
16:36:03 <nooga> these were the viruses
16:36:04 <mroman> or even more
16:36:11 <mroman> a.) it doesn't work
16:36:16 <mroman> b.) even if it would: it's a crappy solution.
16:36:22 <nooga> nowadays it's just spyware, ransomware and crapware
16:36:28 <nooga> disgusting
16:36:54 <mroman> I want fine grained permissions per process and user etc.
16:37:02 <mroman> and software needs to drop privileges
16:37:08 <mroman> so it's only working with minimal privileges.
16:37:16 <nooga> do you?
16:37:23 <mroman> if you open word foo.doc
16:37:24 <nooga> it just means more management
16:37:33 <mroman> you need to drop all privileges except to that file
16:37:38 <mroman> do I what?
16:37:43 <mroman> No OS currently supports this.
16:37:50 <nooga> < mroman> I want fine grained permissions per process and user etc.
16:37:53 <int-e> http://robert.ocallahan.org/2017/01/disable-your-antivirus-software-except.html was another nice article; https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/03/security_threat_solutions/?mt=1486125905262 is also relevant.
16:37:57 <mroman> I want that yes.
16:38:08 <nooga> how would that look like in practice?
16:38:15 <mroman> but it means you gonna have to start from scratch and design an OS with security in mind SINCE THE START.
16:38:35 <mroman> nooga: a.) you configure what parts of the filesystem a process can even see etc.
16:38:38 <mroman> very fine grained.
16:38:43 <mroman> you have security contexts
16:38:50 <mroman> you can narrow a securyt contexts
16:38:53 <nooga> and one day some smart kid will crack even this
16:39:44 <int-e> mroman: you're right in principle, but a key question is how to make all this usable and understandable for laypeople.
16:39:47 <Zarutian> mroman: hmm.. design an OS with security in mind from the start? Have you heard about capros?
16:40:07 * Zarutian is just catching up.
16:40:29 <mroman> int-e: Well the problem is I don't give a fuck about laypeople.
16:40:32 <nooga> what about unikernels? maybe just box up every application
16:40:33 <int-e> (though I guess a lot could be done by versioned file systems that allow people to go back in time?)
16:40:36 <mroman> If software developers would do a better job it would work
16:40:44 <nooga> and run them in a hypervisor
16:40:44 <mroman> but if they do a crappy job then FUCK them.
16:40:59 <int-e> (which is quite different from what you're suggesting, of course)
16:41:03 <mroman> just look at all the crappy windows installers out there and shit.
16:41:18 <nooga> do they still exist?
16:41:27 <int-e> and perhaps executing programs should be a more privileged operation...
16:42:17 <int-e> but basically most of the programs are written for embedded devices (which we're just starting to perceive as an attack surface) and consumer devices (which are sold by usability, not security)... we're, essentially, doomed.
16:42:20 <nooga> (last time I've used windows was in 2008)
16:43:03 <mroman> http://codepad.org/pbo1ADdF <- like that
16:43:08 <mroman> security contexts are like stacks or something
16:43:14 <mroman> you can always drop privileges
16:43:22 <mroman> and regain them later using a regain token
16:43:40 <mroman> and you can ask for more privileges at which point the OS will ask the user whether this is ok
16:43:42 <mroman> things like that.
16:43:55 <Zarutian> int-e: depends on the level of complexity of the embedded SOC. Just using an ARM with a Windows CE or such is not allowed to be primary control in an say a milling machine.
16:44:00 <mroman> a.) you need to configure the MAXIMUM security context for a process/user
16:44:14 <mroman> b.) software needs to drop and regain privileges as necessary.
16:44:27 <nooga> so you want to put middlewares on syscalls?
16:44:30 <Zarutian> mroman: congrats you just reinvented the "Mother may I?" problem that plaques systems such as seLinux
16:44:43 <nooga> Zarutian: XD
16:44:57 <mroman> Zarutian: What do you mean by that?
16:45:20 <mroman> and linux is crap anyway
16:45:24 <mroman> to heterogenous.
16:45:26 * Zarutian is part of rather long lived discussion group that has thought and written extensively about these matters.
16:45:46 <mroman> by which I mean the distros.
16:46:28 <nooga> I stopped worrying and learned to love OS X because it doesn't need anything from me and I just want emacs
16:46:39 <Zarutian> mroman: the "Mother may I?" problem? basically from your utterence of the phrase "at which point the OS will ask the user whether this is ok"
16:47:40 <mroman> well there's not really a way to avoid that.
16:47:51 <Zarutian> is there not hmm?
16:48:06 <mroman> the user decides what software can access which parts of his stuff.
16:48:13 <mroman> but
16:48:19 <Zarutian> think about "dont seperate designation and authority" for a bit and what that could mean
16:48:21 <mroman> you can hide lots of this from the user
16:48:27 <mroman> for example with filechooserdialogues
16:48:34 <mroman> which grant implicit permissions to the file you selected
16:48:42 <mroman> so the user doesn't even know that this was a security feature
16:48:55 <Zarutian> does filechooserdialogues return an filehandle instead of just a path string?
16:49:06 <mroman> the difference is that it's an OS dialogue
16:49:11 <mroman> not one from the software
16:49:21 <nooga> > PID 1234 at 0x0800000800012f wants to call sysapi_mgvgtbf2 to and will touch "/saou/ajsihaois/annsuoanus/tmp/asu_2872983323/f2f2ff2f201-c.ggg". [GO AHEAD] [NOPE]
16:49:24 <lambdabot> error:
16:49:24 <lambdabot> Data constructor not in scope:
16:49:24 <lambdabot> PID
16:49:31 <nooga> ^ this
16:49:34 <nooga> 20 times a second
16:49:42 <Zarutian> mroman: hmm.. basically an instance of an pattern called PowerBox
16:50:55 <Zarutian> nooga: you nailed it
16:51:57 <mroman> nooga: and?
16:52:06 <nooga> 40 times a second
16:52:10 <mroman> so?
16:52:17 <mroman> then the software is crap
16:52:20 <mroman> or your config is wrong.
16:52:21 <nooga> so your computer is useless
16:52:40 <mroman> it's a bad idea that all processes have the same /tmp anyway
16:52:58 <int-e> <mroman> then the software is crap <--- I thought that was one of the premises
16:53:11 <nooga> you could install a hand crank on it as well
16:53:27 <mroman> I would use an abstraction layer for the fs
16:53:31 <mroman> process only see a virtual filesystem
16:53:36 <mroman> and you can map stuff into that
16:53:46 <mroman> like map /tmp/httpd /tmp
16:53:48 <nooga> IMHO this is not a good idea for consumer grade computing
16:53:52 <mroman> so httpd has a /tmp
16:54:02 <mroman> which is on the physical fs in /tmp/httpd
16:54:04 <mroman> stuff like that
16:54:08 <nooga> it could be quite cool for embedded/process control
16:54:27 <nooga> when you set up everything and just run stuff for a long periods of time
16:55:16 <mroman> well you need strict guidelines
16:55:24 <mroman> software developers will need to follow these or gtfo
16:55:33 <mroman> you need a very homogenous environment
16:55:49 <mroman> so not shitty ideas like "we call it apache2 in this distro, we call it httpd in this distro"
16:55:50 <mroman> in fact
16:55:56 <mroman> don't have multiple distros at all :p
16:56:19 <nooga> welcome to the future, NaziOS is here
16:56:34 <mroman> I'm a radical person.
16:56:35 <mroman> :D
16:56:41 <mroman> security has it's price.
16:56:44 <mroman> *its
16:56:47 <nooga> :>
16:57:12 <mroman> but if you have such an OS
16:57:16 <\oren\> Trump Linux
16:57:16 <mroman> with such strict guidelines
16:57:29 <mroman> then the software devs will also ship configuration files for their software
16:57:33 <mroman> etc.
16:57:36 <mroman> I mean
16:57:40 <mroman> if you would have sewindows
16:57:47 <mroman> you'd need months to configure it properly
16:57:55 <nooga> yup
16:58:04 <mroman> because you'd have to write config files for every single process etc.
16:58:09 <mroman> because software devs don't ship one
16:58:24 <mroman> and because their software probably does more than they want to admit
16:58:28 <int-e> here's a fun one... what is the security model of systemd?
16:58:30 <mroman> like calling home and stuff.
16:58:48 <mroman> but my opinion on that is FUCK those software then.
16:59:20 <mroman> I don't know enough about systemd internals to answer that.
16:59:30 <nooga> well, there's quite sophisticated permission system in Android
16:59:49 <nooga> you can grant and revoke access to various APIs for each app
16:59:58 <nooga> but people still click OK
17:00:05 <nooga> and don't even read that stuff
17:00:06 <mroman> nooga: it's a step in the right direction, yes.
17:00:15 <mroman> nooga: yes because if you need the software then you click OK
17:00:16 <mroman> which
17:00:18 <mroman> I mean
17:00:24 <mroman> you can't protect a user from disabling security
17:00:34 <mroman> but that shouldn't be a reason to NOT implement security.
17:00:41 <nooga> you can revoke some rights of any app at any time
17:00:49 <nooga> but then it starts nagging you
17:00:57 <mroman> setenforce 0
17:00:58 <mroman> gg.
17:01:25 <nooga> "oh you just want to take a picture? the camera app has no access to the camera, go to settings and enable"
17:01:51 <mroman> the trick is to pressure software devs into writing good nice software
17:02:46 <mroman> I don't know how this can be done.
17:03:58 <mroman> I think selling crap should be illegal :)
17:04:00 <VisualizeR> open source gets ripped off each time they push the limits
17:04:01 <mroman> but that's justme.
17:04:50 <mroman> and
17:04:59 <mroman> I think software needs warranty laws like regular products.
17:05:21 <mroman> if your software has defects, you should be legally obliged to fix those
17:05:28 <mroman> like with any other non-software product.
17:06:24 <mroman> at least if you do it commercially
17:06:30 <VisualizeR> this would mean a permanent internet connection and feedback with their server to ensure everything is within time limits
17:07:32 <VisualizeR> guess why they digitalize the industries, it still is a law free zone or lets say there are a lot of grey zones
17:09:07 <VisualizeR> next stop transhumanism, posthumanism after that
17:09:40 <VisualizeR> once the technology is in us we're a lot better to control and keep track of
17:10:44 <mroman> humans are bad at solving problems
17:10:46 <mroman> that's my impression.
17:11:07 <mroman> they like to talk about problems more than talking about solving problems :)
17:12:57 <nooga> but there's no one better
17:13:32 <mroman> ?
17:14:30 <nooga> [at solving problems]
17:15:02 <mroman> still don't follow.
17:17:29 <mroman> sometimes it seems that they aren't even aware of the options they have.
17:17:43 <mroman> in switzerland citizens have the power to change laws.
17:17:44 <mroman> so
17:17:51 <mroman> if a law is still in place after complaining for years about it
17:18:13 <mroman> then this means to me that everybody likes to complain about it, but nobody actually wants to change it.
17:18:24 <mroman> so everybody is just bullshitting.
17:18:38 <nooga> yeah, it's worse when it's the other way round
17:19:19 <nooga> when people are pissed off and protesting but government does not listen and keeps doing the opposite to what people want
17:20:02 <mroman> might be a bad political system then :)
17:20:22 <int-e> nooga: you're talking about a purely hypothetical scenario of course
17:20:35 <nooga> absolutely :P
17:21:00 <mroman> I heard a silent "Trump" there
17:21:32 <mroman> I like the "I do things" attitude.
17:21:37 <mroman> I don't necessarily like what he's up to
17:21:47 <mroman> and I don't know what he's up to.
17:21:59 <mroman> except for that ban of 7 countries
17:22:09 <mroman> that's the only thing you really read about in newspapers in switzerland.
17:22:22 <nooga> I'm not surprised by Trump, I've had samples of this stuff since last winter
17:22:45 <int-e> "The opinion of this so-called judge, which essentially takes law-enforcement away from our country, is ridiculous and will be overturned!" -- Trump
17:23:01 <nooga> yeah, samples of that as well
17:23:02 <mroman> I don't know too much about the US system :(
17:23:03 <mroman> but
17:23:05 <mroman> executive orders?
17:23:09 <mroman> sounds like legislative
17:23:28 <mroman> i.e. why the f*ck does the president have legislative rights?
17:24:23 <int-e> "l'état, c'est moi" -- Louis XIV
17:24:28 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:24:34 <int-e> just a totally random association
17:24:52 <nooga> mroman: yeah, this is hardcore
17:25:07 <int-e> mroman: technically his decrees cannot go against existing law
17:25:29 <int-e> so again, *technically*, you could argue that he has no legislative powers.
17:25:33 <nooga> but if you get a proesident that's in the pocket of the ruling party and paralyzed constitutional court
17:25:38 <nooga> you get the same thing
17:26:05 <int-e> practically though... he has a crazy amount of power, also because he can fire important people, veto laws and the like
17:26:40 <int-e> checks and balances...
17:27:31 <mroman> president can fire people
17:27:34 <int-e> hmm, I've read an analysis of that recently, but where... basically the conclusion was that the rights of the president was established with the underlying idea that only decent human beings would ever attain that office.
17:27:35 <mroman> that's mistake number two :)
17:28:03 <nooga> what he will do next is to convince his electorate that checks and balances are bad and set up by the previous team to impede on making the country great
17:28:28 <nooga> and attempt to dismantle them
17:29:21 <nooga> or just ignore them
17:30:15 <nooga> I've seen it happening :|
17:30:28 <int-e> I'm sure Trump will still like cheques.
17:31:44 <int-e> (another article all but suggested that Trump has a record to beat: Hitler took 5 months from assuming office as chancellor of the Weimar Republic to essentially total power over the state...)
17:34:30 <nooga> so what do I need to do to get a swiss visa?
17:35:30 <mroman> what do you need a swiss visa for?
17:35:48 <mroman> just get a work permit and stay
17:35:50 <mroman> :D
17:36:07 <mroman> or
17:36:13 <mroman> just make vacation here
17:36:14 <mroman> and stay
17:36:32 <int-e> . o O ( bring money )
17:36:55 <mroman> and bring lots of gold
17:36:58 <mroman> we like gold
17:37:00 <mroman> it's so shiny
17:37:20 <mroman> countries generally have nothing against rich immigrants
17:37:26 <mroman> only against poor immigrants :)
17:37:34 <nooga> hold on, I'm calling Google Geneva office
17:37:35 <mroman> well
17:37:38 <mroman> that and muslims
17:37:44 <int-e> `? apt
17:37:45 <HackEgo> apt? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
17:37:49 <mroman> muslims and poor people
17:38:08 <mroman> and maybe germans
17:38:15 <mroman> germans are like arch enemies
17:38:18 <mroman> for whatever reason
17:38:20 <olsner> oh, HTH is also a brand of kitchens
17:38:45 <mroman> I guess it's because they talk in a funny language :p
17:38:47 <int-e> `learn APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags".
17:38:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'apt': APT is a technical term in cyber witchcraft, short for "adequate pernicious toe-rags".
17:39:20 <int-e> @google "adequate pernicious toe-rags"
17:39:21 <lambdabot> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/02/03/security_threat_solutions/
17:39:25 <int-e> though so.
17:39:32 <mroman> but I never heard about discrimination against rich english people
17:39:41 <mroman> as money is always welcome
17:39:50 <mroman> you'll even get tax discounts as a rich foreigner.
17:39:59 <mroman> common practice.
17:40:03 <boily> All Hail the Toe Of Everything!
17:40:20 <int-e> *thought
17:40:25 <nooga> i thought that everyone in switzerland is more or less well off
17:40:32 <mroman> well off how?
17:40:34 <mroman> with money?
17:40:40 <nooga> yeah
17:40:45 <mroman> well yeah
17:40:49 <mroman> but more money is always better
17:40:51 <int-e> nooga: every country needs slaves ;)
17:40:54 <mroman> I mean
17:41:05 <mroman> if you are rich and move to some village in switzerland
17:41:18 <mroman> even if you only have to pay half the amount a swiss would have to pay in taxes
17:41:27 <VisualizeR> no country "needs" slaves, it is just comfortable to have them
17:41:28 <nooga> your new neighbours will vote if they want you there :D
17:41:28 <mroman> it's still going to be a good income
17:41:39 <mroman> so the village can buy a new school
17:41:41 <mroman> or whatever
17:41:42 <mroman> :D
17:41:44 <int-e> VisualizeR: what are you, socialist or communist ;)
17:41:46 <VisualizeR> heaven is a real place on earth, you're just too poor to live in it
17:42:06 <VisualizeR> power to the people
17:42:15 <int-e> kidding mostly... also out of my depth
17:42:21 <int-e> maybe I should read Marx.
17:43:18 <mroman> money equals happiness
17:43:23 <mroman> but only if you have A LOT of it
17:43:33 <mroman> (1 Mio. isn't enough)
17:43:39 <nooga> no, it does not
17:43:41 <VisualizeR> we're always wanting to simply accept the biggest system there is but this way we give away our power to share information collectively. that is basically the msg of the aliens, the 1% are the alienated ones and they started a class war.
17:43:43 <nooga> look up Notch
17:43:49 <nooga> he's miserable
17:44:10 <int-e> "money cannot buy happiness but it sure keeps the family in touch"
17:44:29 <nooga> my view on it is that we're all playing a game
17:44:29 <int-e> (paraphrased, no clue what the source was)
17:44:34 <nooga> and money is a score
17:44:40 <nooga> the score*
17:45:07 <mroman> no
17:45:08 <nooga> and this game gets slightly easier for high scoring players
17:45:12 <mroman> family is the score
17:45:14 <mroman> in my opinion
17:45:15 <int-e> slightly?
17:45:19 <mroman> but money can buy you family.
17:45:28 <nooga> int-e: slightly, unless you're in the top ten
17:45:51 <mroman> with money I could afford plastic surgery
17:45:55 <mroman> a lot of plastic surgery.
17:46:29 <nooga> I cheated and got a lovely wife without using any money ;>
17:46:44 <mroman> lucky bastard :(
17:47:08 <mroman> I'm a 0/10. Makes dating incredibly hard.
17:47:28 <nooga> I used to think the same
17:47:31 <nooga> there's hope
17:47:31 <mroman> 0/10 on the revised scale
17:47:36 <mroman> no the traditional scale
17:47:42 <mroman> the traditional scale is useless.
17:47:54 <mroman> it's like grades
17:48:14 <mroman> It doesn't matter if you fail with a 1,2,3, or 3.9 (you fail if grade < 4.0)
17:48:30 <mroman> fail is fail.
17:48:38 <mroman> the only grades that actually matter are 4 to 6.
17:49:26 <nooga> but grades don't count in the game
17:49:35 <mroman> I'm not "thinking" that
17:49:35 <nooga> the game is about score and staying sane
17:49:40 <mroman> I actually have hard data on that.
17:58:49 <nooga> how old are you?
18:01:11 <doesthiswork> and /s/l
18:01:32 <nooga> these are known
18:02:16 <doesthiswork> yes but the order is important
18:02:47 <doesthiswork> http://www.gingersoftware.com/content/grammar-rules/adjectives/order-of-adjectives/
18:02:55 <nooga> ooooh
18:06:53 <mroman> 26
18:07:17 <mroman> l?
18:07:19 <mroman> language?
18:07:44 -!- tromp has joined.
18:07:56 <boily> location.
18:08:01 <doesthiswork> purpose or qualifier
18:09:21 <nooga> huh
18:09:53 <doesthiswork> s/l/purpose or qualifier
18:11:02 * Zarutian had to do some chores that turned out to be more time consuming than he thought
18:12:17 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
18:23:56 <mroman> you need pictures too?
18:25:24 <nooga> what for?
18:25:46 <mroman> I don't know.
18:26:11 <nooga> :S
18:31:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bax3n]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50840&oldid=50630 * Bax3n * (-24)
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18:47:52 <mroman> I have a public youtube channel anyway.
18:47:59 <mroman> so my face isn't exactly secret :)
18:54:31 <mroman> you can watch my precious cooking skills.
18:56:46 <doesthiswork> do you have a link to your wishlist ;)
18:57:00 <mroman> wishlist?
18:58:16 <VisualizeR> lol
18:59:51 <mroman> You can document Burlesque for me
18:59:58 <mroman> That's on my whishlist.
19:01:26 <doesthiswork> I can review Cabaret if you like
19:02:07 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/docs/BLSQ.html <- needs a lot of work
19:02:11 <mroman> utterly incomplete
19:02:59 <doesthiswork> oh.
19:05:52 <mroman> yeh.
19:06:08 <mroman> probably not even a 100 builtins documented
19:06:08 -!- nooga has quit (Read error: No route to host).
19:06:11 <mroman> and there are 400 of those
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19:19:42 <mroman> It's got the best Fibonacci program there is.
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20:31:17 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/password
20:31:18 <HackEgo> ​-rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 38 Feb 4 12:07 wisdom/password
20:31:22 <oerjan> ooh
20:31:27 <oerjan> `? password
20:31:27 <HackEgo> The password of the month is n9y25ah7
20:31:43 <oerjan> `dowg password
20:31:44 <HackEgo> 10206:2017-02-04 <int-̈e> learn The password of the month is n9y25ah7 \ 10065:2017-01-01 <oerjän> learn The password of the month is A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91A\xd0\x90\xce\x91 \ 9816:2016-12-02 <shachäf> revert \ 9815:2016-12-02 <shachäf> undo -2 \ 9813:2016-12-02 <oerjän> learn The password of th
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20:33:43 <doesthiswork> mroman: what does the Fibonacci program look like?
20:34:37 <oerjan> `! slashes did we have this
20:34:38 <HackEgo> did we have this
20:34:41 <oerjan> ooh
20:36:31 <int-e> `! --help
20:36:32 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/--help: not found
20:36:37 <int-e> ah
20:36:49 <oerjan> `! help
20:36:50 <HackEgo> The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
20:37:00 <doesthiswork> `botsnack
20:37:01 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
20:37:14 <int-e> the --help was, actually, helpful for me... I did remember what ibin is :)
20:38:12 <int-e> `paste ibin/
20:38:12 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin
20:38:17 <int-e> `url ibin/
20:38:18 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/ibin
20:38:58 <oerjan> `paste tries `url first before doing any actual copying
20:39:19 <nooga> giiiik
20:39:33 <oerjan> nooga: waaat?
20:39:38 <int-e> `url /dev/null
20:39:38 <HackEgo> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
20:39:47 <int-e> ah, it checks that...
20:39:52 <shachaf> `url tmp/spout
20:39:53 <HackEgo> File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.
20:39:56 <int-e> I didn't know!
20:40:04 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa
20:40:11 <shachaf> `cat bin/url
20:40:12 <HackEgo> ​#!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, os.path, re, urllib \ if len(sys.argv) <= 1: \ print "http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/" \ else: \ f = os.path.abspath(sys.argv[1]) \ f = re.sub(r"^/+hackenv/", "", f) \ if re.match(r"/|(?:\.hg|tmp)(?:/|$)",f): \ sys.exit("File is outside web-viewable filesystem repository.") \
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20:40:18 <shachaf> Ah.
20:40:21 <int-e> HackEgo's (commands are) surprisingly intelligent sometimes.
20:40:24 <shachaf> `dowg ../bin/url
20:40:26 <HackEgo> 8136:2016-05-25 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'8s/..hg/(?:&|tmp)/\' bin/url \ 8135:2016-05-25 <oerjän> revert 8132 \ 8133:2016-05-25 <oerjän> ` sed -i \'8s/.hg/(?:.hg|tmp)/\' bin/url \ 4607:2014-04-20 <oerjän> sed -i \'s/hg repository/web-viewable filesystem repository/\' bin/url \ 4606:2014-04-20 <oerjän> sed -i \'8s!.*! if re.match(r"/|\\\\.hg(
20:40:33 <oerjan> shachaf: hth
20:40:34 <shachaf> clwver
20:41:19 <nooga> oerjan: making random noises
20:41:41 <int-e> `slwd oerjan//s/clever/clwver/
20:41:41 <HackEgo> oerjan//Your wise @messages-lord fanfic oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also a Glasswegian who dislikes Roald Dahl. He could never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience; but lately it's the only word he can ever remember. His arch-nemesis is Betty Crocker. He sometimes puns without noticing it.
20:42:11 <int-e> pity, no "clever" in there :P
20:42:27 <shachaf> how unlucky
20:42:35 <shachaf> if only you had a four-leaf clwver
20:43:15 * int-e slashes (that's where this started, wasn't it?) shachaf with a four-leaf cleaver
20:43:48 <shachaf> `cat bin/swrjan
20:43:49 <HackEgo> slwd "oerjan//$1"
20:44:07 <int-e> ...srsly
20:44:18 <int-e> `culprits bin/swrjan
20:44:21 <HackEgo> shachäf
20:44:39 <int-e> `cat bin/shwshaf
20:44:40 <HackEgo> cat: bin/shwshaf: No such file or directory
20:44:48 <int-e> `cat bin/shwchaf
20:44:49 <HackEgo> cat: bin/shwchaf: No such file or directory
20:45:11 <shachaf> That would make no sense.
20:45:13 <int-e> `? shachaf
20:45:14 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
20:45:20 <shachaf> swrjan stands for something like sed wisdom oerjan
20:46:19 <int-e> shachaf: Would a bell pepper with a passion be a passion fruit? And how do you feel about bell peppers without any passion?
20:47:11 <oerjan> paradoxically, i'd imagine shachaf doesn't think bell peppers are passionate enough
20:47:21 <shachaf> Your reading is not supported by English grammar.
20:47:43 <shachaf> Or maybe mine isn't.
20:47:45 <shachaf> Oh well.
20:47:58 <oerjan> i think english grammar is appropriately ambiguous
20:48:03 <int-e> I think the grammar supports it, it's only the semantic level that would usually preclude this interpretation.
20:48:55 <shachaf> I'm not one to comment on content.
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20:49:00 <int-e> Mainly because passionate fruits and vegetables are so rare.
20:49:29 <shachaf> "he hates tomatoes with an infection"
20:49:32 <shachaf> I suppose it's passable.
20:50:14 <int-e> . o O ( tomatoes are very passable )
20:50:18 <int-e> it's raining puns
20:50:39 * oerjan passes int-e a slightly overripe tomato at high speed
20:50:55 <int-e> yum!
20:52:27 <int-e> (I don't think this pun really works in english... I guess translating "tomato passata" as "passed tomatoes" would evoke unpleasant connotations)
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20:53:26 <oerjan> puré tomato goodness
20:54:18 <oerjan> int-e: goes well with a cup of kopi luwak?
20:54:49 * oerjan is not going to try either
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20:55:58 <wob_jonas> As for English, I have a question.
20:56:49 <int-e> why?
20:56:56 <wob_jonas> There's this short joke about the vet thinking the doctor has it easy because his patients can speak and tell him what the problem is why they went to the doctor or what symptoms they have.
20:58:04 <wob_jonas> The Hungarian phrasing is: doctor: "Mi a panasza?" (which is a common thing for a doctor to asks when you go there without context), and the vet answers "Ja, úgy könnyű!" saying that the doctor has it easy.
20:58:14 <wob_jonas> What is the idiomatic phrasing of that joke in English?
20:58:48 <oerjan> . o O ( wait, what's the actual joke )
20:59:18 <shachaf> can you translate the hungarian bits twh
21:00:03 <wob_jonas> "Mi a panasza?" means "What is your complaint?" which is how a doctor asks an adult why you came to them when he doesn't already know what the problem is
21:00:39 <wob_jonas> "Ja, hát úgy könnyű!" means "Oh, it's easy that way!" or something like that
21:00:51 <nooga> :O
21:02:03 <shachaf> Oh, I see.
21:02:50 <wob_jonas> But the joke only works well if it's short, not a long explanation, which is why I don't know how to say it in English the best.
21:03:44 <shachaf> The veterinarian wants to make the doctor's life harder by not answering questions.
21:03:59 <wob_jonas> shachaf: no, he'll probably answer the question after that
21:04:06 <wob_jonas> he just exclaims that first
21:04:20 <wob_jonas> he's in a joke but isn't stupid
21:04:30 <shachaf> Are you sure he exists?
21:04:35 <int-e> A Veterinarian was feeling ill and went to see her doctor. The doctor asked her all the usual questions: what were the symptoms, how long had they been occurring, etc. Suddenly, she interrupted him, "Hey look, I'm a vet... I don't need to ask my patients these kind of questions. I can tell what's wrong just by looking." She smugly added, "Why can't you?"
21:04:40 <int-e> The doctor nodded, stood back, looked her up and down, quickly wrote out a prescription, handed it to her and said, "There you are. Of course, if that doesn't work, we'll have to have you put to sleep."
21:04:44 <int-e> this version works for me.
21:05:19 <wob_jonas> int-e: that's a different one, yes. there are multiple jokes about vets and doctors
21:05:38 -!- FreeFull has joined.
21:05:53 <int-e> wob_jonas: I just have no clue how to actually deliver the information required for your story so that there's a punchline.
21:06:08 <wob_jonas> ok, thanks
21:06:41 <int-e> (and I don't remember having heard such a joke... not that this says a lot)
21:06:53 <zzo38> The punchline is when one man punches the other.
21:07:03 <int-e> A man took his Rottweiler to the vet and said "My dog's cross-eyed, is there anything you can do for him?" "Well," said the vet, "lets have a look at him." So he picks the dog up and has a good look at its eyes. "Hmm, not good," says the vet, "I'm going to have to put him down."
21:07:08 <int-e> The owner was stunned, "Put him down just because he's cross-eyed?" "No, because he's heavy," says the vet.
21:07:24 <int-e> (that's the other joke I found on the way that made me chuckle, at least. it's all I have for now.)
21:07:53 <wob_jonas> hehe
21:08:07 <int-e> Of course I'm reminded of Pratchett's wisdom about horse doctors.
21:08:27 <wob_jonas> I haven't read enough pratchett, so I don't know what that is
21:09:18 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel almost, but not entirely without esolang discussions | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
21:09:24 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/cWSI
21:09:33 <zzo38> The transformation matrix of OpenGL is confusing why is there so many? Do you know how to do it to make the simple way (so that the top left corner is (0,0) and then it goes positive by integers per pixel)?
21:10:18 <int-e> what are you going to do with the z coordinate?
21:10:27 <wob_jonas> int-e: I see
21:10:48 <zzo38> I think I do not need z-coordinate probably, but I do use the depth buffer though.
21:12:17 <zzo38> Maybe the z-coordinate may be usable as an additional input to the shader program; I don't know if this can work or not.
21:13:09 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
21:17:14 <int-e> glOrtho used to be the right thing but I haven't used OpenGL in this new everything-is-a-shader age where you're responsible for so much more.
21:18:00 * oerjan is slightly tempted to find a way to tweak the spam filter so the intro cannot be put at the start of the section
21:18:50 <int-e> hmm, has there been new spam?
21:18:52 <zzo38> int-e: I can use glOrtho but what values should be specified, and what other thing is needed too?
21:19:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stones]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50841&oldid=50823 * Zzo38 * (-1)
21:19:55 <oerjan> int-e: no, but there have been new introductions
21:20:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50842&oldid=50833 * Oerjan * (-1) Order!
21:20:50 <int-e> zzo38: just the range of coordinates you want: https://www.opengl.org/sdk/docs/man2/xhtml/glOrtho.xml ... that should set up things so that afterwards specifying (2D, or 3D with a z coordinate) vertex coordinates in screen space should work.
21:23:10 <zzo38> Yes, but then what do I need with glViewport and glMatrixMode and so on?
21:24:51 <int-e> oerjan: I don't know. I guess if I were jumping through the introduction hoop, that would not cause any terrible additional annoyance provided that this is clear and near impossible to miss from the instructions.
21:25:19 <int-e> oerjan: but is it worth it? do you expect people to actually read through all the introductions? I mean anyone besides yourself...
21:26:40 <wob_jonas> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Silberjoder whoa
21:26:48 <oerjan> int-e: well they have to avoid the other pitfalls described there already, and it _does_ already say to put it on the end.
21:26:55 <oerjan> *at
21:29:34 <int-e> zzo38: afair you need glViewPort to specify the area to be rendered to; but it sets up the transformation such that screen coordinates range from (-1,-1) (top-left, I think) to (1,1) (bottom right). So afterwards, you can use glOrtho to set up the transformation that you want without affecting the area being rendered to. But as I said before, this is outdated information.
21:29:52 <oerjan> although the main one people seem to have trouble with is not putting in external links.
21:30:08 <int-e> oerjan: I guess a more relevant question is whether any of the recent additions would have been rejected by such a test.
21:30:20 <oerjan> (which is also one that was put there _specifically_ to catch spammers)
21:30:52 <oerjan> int-e: there are less than a handful who have put it at the beginning.
21:31:10 <oerjan> but they do seem to happen occasionally.
21:31:20 <oerjan> (and then i fix it)
21:31:49 <oerjan> int-e: and of course i'm mentioning this because there just was one.
21:31:51 <zzo38> And then how does it affect inputs to fragment programs?
21:32:33 <int-e> oerjan: so put a reminder text at the start of the section.
21:33:20 <int-e> oerjan: and then adding such a check seems fair to me
21:33:47 <oerjan> int-e: i was considering that.
21:34:12 <ais523> I know I had to remove the check that peopel had signed correctly
21:34:16 <ais523> because so many legitimate users didn't
21:34:20 <ais523> it's really disappointing, actually
21:37:32 <oerjan> . o O ( making good CAPTCHAs is hard not because spammer programs are smart, but because humans are stupid )
21:38:06 * oerjan cannot be the first to note that.
21:38:06 <wob_jonas> yeah
21:39:20 <wob_jonas> I'm reminded to https://www.xkcd.com/810/ and https://www.xkcd.com/233/ of course
21:40:20 <oerjan> i'd fail the latter, never having seen that.
21:40:35 <wob_jonas> 810 is an approach that's too hard for humans, 233 is one that's too easy for machines
21:41:23 <ais523> oerjan: a bot passed a fairly large turing-test tournament, it did so by pretending to be a ukrainian teenager
21:41:42 <ais523> which automatically caused people to give it a pass on things like bad english and no knowledge of American pop culture
21:42:05 <oerjan> i remember that
21:42:53 <oerjan> was it scott aaronson who tried it and found it easy to beat
21:43:15 <oerjan> ais523: in that case too, it was because humans stupid - including the judges
21:43:20 <oerjan> *+are
21:43:47 <mroman> doesthiswork: 1Jq.+10!C
21:44:00 <doesthiswork> very nice
21:44:06 <mroman> http://cheap.int-e.eu/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi?q=1Jq.%2B46%21C
21:44:27 <ais523> I think the main conclusion was that the Turing test doesn't actually work
21:44:33 <mroman> (and that's not a fibonacci builtin)
21:44:56 <oerjan> wob_jonas: *reminded of
21:45:19 <wob_jonas> ok
21:46:20 <wob_jonas> `ping
21:46:20 <HackEgo> pong
21:47:20 <oerjan> ais523: it _could_ work but (1) the judge would need to be competent (2) a passing program would need a full fake human backstory
21:47:33 <int-e> zzo38: meh, I googled a bit. AFAIU, vertex shaders convert coordinates into "normalized device coordinates" (that's a cube [-1..1]^3) with all fragments outside the range being dropped; the input to the fragment shader includes window (that is, device) coordinates of the fragment though, obtained using data from glViewPort.
21:48:13 <wob_jonas> `dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx
21:48:13 <HackEgo> dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative
21:48:17 <oerjan> so it's making unreasonable demands of the program, unless it's only using stupid humans as judges
21:48:27 <int-e> oerjan: Why should Eliza not be able to pass a captcha? :P
21:48:55 <wob_jonas> `dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/zero
21:48:56 <HackEgo> dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative number \ dc: value overflows simple integer; punting... \ dc: scale must be a nonnegative
21:49:00 <wob_jonas> ``dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/zero
21:49:00 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `dc: not found
21:49:04 <wob_jonas> ``` dc -e1d[pdk+Krlxx]dsxx 2>/dev/zero
21:49:04 <HackEgo> 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \ 11349031
21:49:05 <wob_jonas> dumb
21:50:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck+3]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50843 * Ivancr72 * (+1195) Created page with "Brainfuck+3 is like [[brainfuck]] but it has a bidimensional space and it has 3 more commands. ==Commands== {| class="wikitable" !Command !Description |- | style="text-align:c..."
21:50:46 <wob_jonas> `ruby -ex=i=1;loop{p x+=i=x-i}
21:50:46 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ruby: not found
21:56:23 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Gotta go).
21:56:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)fuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=50844 * Ivancr72 * (+452) Created page with "( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)fuck is a derivate of [[Brainfuck+3]] but with lenny faces. ==Commands== <code>+</code> ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)<br /> <code>-</code> (♥ ͜ʖ♥)<br /> <code>.</..."
21:58:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50845&oldid=50829 * Ivancr72 * (+46) added bf+3 and lennyfuck
21:58:52 <int-e> `` dc -ezz[rpdk+Klxx]dsxx 2>/dev/null # tweak
21:58:53 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \
21:59:31 <int-e> (and you can replace zz by 1 if you don't care about the 0 or empty stack errors)
22:00:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ivancr72]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50846&oldid=50635 * Ivancr72 * (+47)
22:00:39 <mroman> you need knowledge about american pop culture to be considered human?
22:00:43 -!- Guest78015 has changed nick to L3viathan.
22:01:10 <wob_jonas> mroman: good question, wait, there was a discussion of this
22:01:16 <wob_jonas> let me try to find it
22:01:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blablafuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50847&oldid=50697 * Ivancr72 * (+6)
22:01:44 -!- VisualizeR has joined.
22:01:44 <mroman> although turing test doesn't really test if you're human.
22:01:54 <mroman> I reckon intelligent aliens would pass the test too.
22:02:05 <int-e> `` dc -e1[dKp+rklxx]dsxx 2>/dev/null # actually one char less now
22:02:06 <HackEgo> 0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657 \ 46368 \ 75025 \ 121393 \ 196418 \ 317811 \ 514229 \ 832040 \ 1346269 \ 2178309 \ 3524578 \ 5702887 \ 9227465 \ 14930352 \ 24157817 \ 39088169 \ 63245986 \ 102334155 \ 165580141 \ 267914296 \ 433494437 \ 701408733 \
22:04:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)fuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=50848&oldid=50844 * Ivancr72 * (+64)
22:05:14 <mroman> 60% thought cleverbot is human
22:05:20 <mroman> what the fuck is wrong with these humans.
22:05:46 <mroman> and hu
22:05:53 <mroman> only 63.3% of humans were identified as humans
22:05:54 <mroman> what
22:06:23 <mroman> "Out of the 334 votes cast, Cleverbot was judged to be 59.3% human, compared to the rating of 63.3% human achieved by human participants."
22:06:42 <int-e> Was it one of those bots that emulated a teenager?
22:06:47 <mroman> don't know
22:06:56 <mroman> but cleverbot.com let's you chat with it online
22:07:09 <mroman> I doubt you need more than one minute to see if it's a bot.
22:07:35 <zzo38> int-e: It is still confusing to me a bit. If I will use vertex program and fragment program, what do the different inputs and outputs of those programs do?
22:07:37 <int-e> Face it, we cannot reliably tell fungot apart from the channel's less silicon blessed residents at all times.
22:07:37 <fungot> int-e: there are fnord
22:07:53 <int-e> And fungot isn't even trying to pass itself off as human.
22:07:53 <fungot> int-e: thankfully you can click at part of the problem, so silly a redundancy
22:08:22 <zzo38> Such as, what do texture coordinates do?
22:08:28 <mroman> http://codepad.org/9ZFq88xe <- it just takes a single question
22:10:52 <mroman> http://codepad.org/P4AjtUca <- either those humans were incredibly morons or they didn't participate with their online version in the test.
22:10:53 <wob_jonas> mroman: http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3285.html and its discussion thread http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=7411
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22:11:14 <oerjan> <boily> myndzi. <-- i think \oren\ makes a better cyborg these days.
22:11:21 <mroman> the first two answers are completely out of context.
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22:11:56 <mroman> are there transcripts from those turing tests available?
22:15:33 <mroman> "Although Cleverbot managed to score well on the Turing test, the model that did that is different from the one you’ll find online."
22:15:55 <mroman> Thought so, because the online version is pretty dumb.
22:18:32 <mroman> The trick is to not ask them yes/no questions.
22:18:52 <mroman> they are decently good at detecting yes/no question and answer randomly with either.
22:19:49 <ais523> can't you ask a yes/no question for which a random answer would be suspicious?
22:19:55 <ais523> at least half the time
22:20:03 <ais523> or for which both yes and no would be bad answers
22:20:08 <mroman> of course.
22:21:19 <mroman> also you need to reference previous things you've said.
22:24:06 <mroman> stuff like "Lookt at my last sentence. Pick the worth word in that sentence which is a verb. Please tell me the simple past of that verb."
22:24:18 <mroman> *fourth
22:25:39 <mroman> To identify a bot you need to know what a bot can't.
22:26:00 <mroman> If you ask people to identify a bot who don't know how bot works
22:26:09 <int-e> mroman: f*ck you I'm not doing your grammar homework for you!
22:26:10 <mroman> the chances are much higher that they'll think it's not a bot.
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22:26:14 <oerjan> mroman: thought you put in the misspellings on purpose :P
22:26:48 <mroman> oerjan: no. It's kinda funny but these things happen all the time to me.
22:26:58 <mroman> I write stuff "pseudo-phonetically"
22:27:07 * Zarutian has met actual humans that fail parts of the turing test
22:27:21 <oerjan> itym sudo-foneticly hth
22:27:43 <int-e> oerjan: itym
22:27:47 <wob_jonas> what? worth is pseudo-phonetical?
22:27:59 <mroman> kinda.
22:28:04 <int-e> (reading: ity[are]m)
22:28:05 <mroman> I also write does <-> those
22:28:09 <wob_jonas> isn't pseudo-phonetical when you write sign instead of sine?
22:28:33 * oerjan hands int-e his evil overlord card
22:28:34 <mroman> anyway it's late. Gonna hit the hay.
22:28:46 <int-e> oerjan: does it bite?
22:29:03 <mroman> my stupid friend told me to inform him when I go climbing again so he can join
22:29:13 <mroman> but that apparentely was an empty promise.
22:29:26 <wob_jonas> mroman: that's a promise?
22:29:33 <wob_jonas> int-e: a balm does, yes
22:29:40 <oerjan> int-e: ooh, good idea
22:30:01 <mroman> it's a promise to join me, yes.
22:30:18 <mroman> but he's not even responding.
22:31:17 <mroman> and I kind need to know... I don't like it when people only commit on the actual day it was planned.
22:31:21 <mroman> or cancel on the day it was planned.
22:31:27 <mroman> that's rude.
22:31:39 <mroman> and disrupts my workout regime.
22:33:20 <mroman> Now I had to go shopping today waiting for him to answer.
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22:33:26 <mroman> Wanted to buy a suit.
22:33:29 <mroman> Shit is too expensive though.
22:33:32 <mroman> 600 bucks
22:33:42 <mroman> need to think if that's actually worth it.
22:34:29 <mroman> I have a weird body shape.
22:34:29 <shachaf> too expensive?
22:34:30 <shachaf> suit yourself
22:34:39 <mroman> I can't buy clothes without having to tailor them.
22:35:17 <mroman> my arms and legs are shorter than other peoples.
22:35:22 <mroman> *people's
22:35:27 <mroman> well
22:35:37 <mroman> 600 bucks is probably a reasonable price for a tailored suit
22:35:49 <mroman> I mean that's likely average price for that kind of quality.
22:36:39 <mroman> but I have no specific use for a suit other than that I currently don't have one and wanted to see what the fuzz is abut.
22:36:41 <mroman> *about
22:37:34 <mroman> you only need a suit if you work as a lawyer or in a bank or insurance company
22:37:41 <mroman> otherwise nobody needs a suit.
22:38:06 <mroman> and 600 bucks is too much to ruin it
22:38:08 <wob_jonas> mroman: not quite. it's useful to have a suit when you're invited to other people's weddings
22:38:21 <wob_jonas> s/when/if/
22:38:22 <mroman> I'm not getting invited to weddings.
22:38:38 <mroman> My own brother doesn't even say hi to me
22:38:39 <mroman> so
22:38:42 <wob_jonas> yeah, but many people who aren't lawyers or work in a bank are
22:39:08 <mroman> There's zero people who would invite me to weddings.
22:39:11 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:39:13 <mroman> or birthday parties
22:39:18 <mroman> pretty much anything.
22:39:24 <wob_jonas> :-(
22:40:06 <mroman> Last time I went out was more than 2 years ago.
22:40:30 <alercah> like out of the house?
22:40:39 <wob_jonas> lol
22:40:41 <mroman> and the total amount of times I went out I can count with two hands.
22:40:49 <mroman> no
22:40:50 <alercah> sheltered...
22:40:54 <mroman> I leave home everyday for work
22:41:12 <mroman> and climbing
22:41:14 <mroman> and stuff
22:41:17 <mroman> mostly climbing and work tho
22:41:18 <wob_jonas> alercah: or have a really big house, like Wonko the Sane does
22:41:47 <mroman> and doctor appointments
22:42:32 <mroman> I face orofacial dyskinesia
22:42:39 <mroman> hm
22:42:39 <wob_jonas> do you mean indoor climbing?
22:42:43 <mroman> *I have
22:42:54 <wob_jonas> orofa... what?
22:43:02 <mroman> ok oerjan what actually happens is that my brain skips to the next word and then mangles words together
22:43:05 <wob_jonas> what does that mean?
22:43:20 <mroman> so I end up writing "I face" orofacial instead of "I have"
22:43:44 <mroman> wob_jonas: It means my facial muscles are doing shit they are not supposed to
22:43:58 <mroman> also chronic orofacial pain
22:44:14 <wob_jonas> I see
22:44:35 <mroman> They move without me commanding them
22:47:07 <mroman> I don't have many friend.
22:47:24 <mroman> Mostly because I'm very good at sensing if people actually like me or just tolerate me.
22:48:17 <mroman> and since I'm not very narcissistic I don't give a shit about attention from people who tolerate me
22:49:21 <mroman> Maybe that's a BPD trait
22:49:22 <mroman> who knows.
22:49:34 <mroman> or SPD.
22:51:04 <mroman> and I'm not really good at anything and not traditionally attractive at all
22:51:14 <mroman> so people usually don't want to be friends anyway
22:51:33 <wob_jonas> mroman: what sort of climbing? indoor climbing?
22:51:38 <mroman> indoor
22:52:00 <mroman> and bouldering
22:52:06 <mroman> but climbing only indoor so far.
22:53:22 <wob_jonas> I tried indoor climbing only once, and didn't enjoy it, so I never went back
22:53:37 <wob_jonas> but at least I can understand why other people want to do it
22:54:07 <mroman> It's challenging.
22:54:21 <mroman> and the first few times it feels like freedom.
22:54:28 <mroman> but currently it has become more of a challenge
22:54:33 <mroman> like "I wanna climb better grades"
22:55:01 <mroman> but it's a very niche sport around here
22:55:03 <mroman> not a lot of people
22:55:26 <mroman> I don't know anybody who climbs
22:55:31 <wob_jonas> yeah
22:55:37 <wob_jonas> it's not that common
22:55:44 <mroman> so I'm limited to the routes with those Toppas devices
22:55:53 <wob_jonas> somehow a lot of people started to do squash (sport)
22:56:12 <wob_jonas> Toppas devices?
22:57:08 <wob_jonas> apparently that's some sort of rope holding thing, if I understand right
22:57:13 <mroman> yes.
22:57:18 <mroman> It's at the top of the wall
22:57:41 <mroman> it has a mechanism that slows your fall to 1m/s
22:58:15 <wob_jonas> mroman: can't you also go to indoor climbing spaces that don't have ropes but are not very tall and have a thick padded mat on the floor? that's the kind of place I was at when I tried. so if you fall, you don't fall from too high, and don't hurt yourself much (usually).
22:58:25 <mroman> wob_jonas: that's called bouldering
22:58:28 <mroman> and yeah, I do that.
22:58:32 <wob_jonas> ah
23:00:21 <mroman> https://www.hoehenpass.de/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/560x560/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/o/toppas_1.png <- that's a toppas
23:00:42 <mroman> it's on the top of the wall with a rope attached so you can pull it down, hook it up to your climbing belt (probably not the correct term)
23:00:57 <mroman> and it always pulls the rope in so when you climb upwards it will pull the rope in
23:01:21 <wob_jonas> climbing harness?
23:01:27 <mroman> when you fall it will slowling unwind the rope with about 1m/s
23:01:30 <mroman> ah yes. harness.
23:02:05 <mroman> if you're tired from climbing it gets hard to even pull the thing down :)
23:02:40 <mroman> because there's always an upwards force pulling the rope back up
23:02:48 <mroman> so you have to pull it down against that force :D
23:03:54 <mroman> which is why people once they have pulled it down fix it to a carabiner at the bottom of the wall.
23:04:07 <mroman> well there are two systems in use actually
23:04:22 <mroman> one where the carabiner from the toppas is at the top with a small rope attached to it so you have to pull the thing down
23:04:49 <mroman> and system 2 is where it's already pulled down and hooked with carabiners on the floor
23:04:59 <mroman> so you unhook it, climb up, fall down, hook it to the floor again
23:05:16 <mroman> the problem with that is if some moron forgets to hook it to the floor the whole thing is pulled to the top
23:05:20 <mroman> and you need a crane :D
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23:06:06 <mroman> some routes have similar devices
23:06:24 <mroman> "snatch pulley"?
23:07:00 <mroman> it's not a machine so you need a human partner but the device makes you lighter to like 10% of your actual weight
23:07:15 <mroman> so the one who is protecting you from falling down needs very little force
23:07:34 <mroman> and the rope is already on the wall
23:07:44 <mroman> it's mostly for children though.
23:08:31 <mroman> well... good night.
23:08:36 <mroman> really need some sleep now.
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23:24:17 <oerjan> <olsner> oh, HTH is also a brand of kitchens <-- i've got hth
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23:29:02 <shachaf> a brand of kittens?!
23:30:26 <oerjan> mwno.
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23:31:45 <shachaf> do you recommend hth brand kitchens?
23:33:27 <oerjan> i find it slightly unnerving that i cannot find the plugs for the fridge and freezer
23:34:41 <oerjan> i considered defrosting the freezer recently, but i don't know how to do it without using the circuit breaker
23:35:07 <oerjan> (i hope it doesn't really need defrosting, the buildup isn't _that_ great)
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23:36:01 <oerjan> anyway, i don't really have an idea, it came with the apartment.
23:36:29 <shachaf> do you recommend your apartment?
23:36:48 <oerjan> no, the ventilation is far too noisy
23:37:16 <shachaf> the positive things about my apartment are the location and the price
23:37:44 <shachaf> the rest ranges from ok to scow
23:37:53 <shachaf> but those are the important things anyway?
23:37:58 <oerjan> oh also my bedroom is next to the building staircase/elevator.
23:38:15 <shachaf> maybe norway is no cheaper than berkeley
23:38:18 <oerjan> which is sometimes annoying, but not that often.
23:38:33 <oerjan> i don't know...
23:38:43 <shachaf> doesn't matter
23:39:01 <shachaf> Should I stick around CA or go somewhere else?
23:39:33 <oerjan> go to sri lanka and become a fisherman hth
23:39:45 <shachaf> not into fishing tdnh
23:40:07 <oerjan> UNACCEPTABLE
23:40:10 <oerjan> (me neither)
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23:41:16 <shachaf> i'm also not into other people fishing
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23:41:55 <oerjan> . o O ( shachaf is working for the fish people )
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