←2017-02-02 2017-02-03 2017-02-04→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:00:08 <DHeadshot> I mean Freeware in the 1990s sense. Free software that you can donate to if you so wish but otherwise just use because it's convenient.
00:00:14 <DHeadshot> Shareware is different
00:00:50 <shachaf> Not to be confused with sharware, which is software distributed in a shell archive.
00:01:04 <DHeadshot> True
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00:06:35 <\oren\> I like shar
00:07:41 <boily> today I managed to build an executable jar. it was way too complex.
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00:10:53 <\oren\> hi hppa 2
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00:15:40 <\oren\> hmm, I wonder what bit numbers have never been used
00:19:12 <boily> ?
00:19:38 <\oren\> for example, has anyone made a 13-bit computer?
00:19:59 <\oren\> or a 128 bit computer
00:21:27 <boily> “The IBM System/370 could be considered the first simple 128-bit computer, as it used 128-bit floating-point registers.” ― https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/128-bit
00:24:17 <boily> Wikipédia lists 6, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, 16, 18, 22, 24, 25, 26, 27, 30, 32, 34, 36, 39, 40, 48, 50, 60 and 64-bit architectures.
00:24:52 <boily> there are also weird oddities here and there, at least one 6-trit architecture, and a bunch of decimal digit archs.
00:25:19 <\oren\> apollo guidance computer, 15 bit
00:27:31 <\oren\> oh, it was 16 bits but one bit was just a parity
00:27:54 <\oren\> good idea, given space radiation and all
00:30:34 <\oren\> every memory read and memory write was checked for parity
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00:56:26 <DHeadshot> Wasn't the Sega Dreamcast 128 bit, at which point everyone gave up on the bit wars because it had got rather silly?
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01:08:25 <fizzie> I don't think the Dreamcast is any more "128 bit" as x86 SIMDy things.
01:09:13 <fizzie> It's got a plain old-fashioned 32-bit SH-4 CPU, and a "four 32-bit floats" SIMD thing.
01:09:36 <fizzie> Although I'm sure that's good enough to use the term "128-bit" in marketing.
01:09:43 <DHeadshot> Huh. I was always told that it and the PS2 were 128-bit...
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01:09:52 <shachaf> What does it mean to be n-bit?
01:10:05 <DHeadshot> Traditionally, n-bit databus
01:10:06 <fizzie> If it was, then I'm typing this on a 256-bit system.
01:10:27 <DHeadshot> though if that was true, serial computers would be 1-bit...
01:11:26 <DHeadshot> And the original PC would be 8-bit (time division multiplexed 16-bit)
01:13:03 <fizzie> "With no further qualification, a 64-bit computer architecture generally has integer and addressing processor registers that are 64 bits wide, allowing direct support for 64-bit data types and addresses. However, a CPU might have external data buses or address buses with different sizes from the registers, even larger (the 32-bit Pentium had a 64-bit data bus, for instance[2]). The term may ...
01:13:09 <fizzie> ... also refer to the size of low-level data types, such as 64-bit floating-point numbers."
01:13:26 <fizzie> That seems to be the Wikipedia definition, which is relevant for that list above.
01:14:16 <DHeadshot> x86 is a weird one, because the smallest registers are 8 bit and the biggest up to 64 bit
01:14:49 <boily> x86 is a whole nother of weirdness.
01:15:31 <DHeadshot> The HD6303 had 2 8-bit accumulators that could be combined into a 16-bit accumulator, just as the 8086 had with AH/AL/AX, yet the HD6303 was described as 8-bit...
01:15:40 <shachaf> x86 is 80-bit at least
01:15:45 <shachaf> Or is that only x87?
01:16:10 <DHeadshot> shachaf: same thing since the pentium...
01:16:28 <shachaf> So x means 5 or more?
01:16:47 <DHeadshot> ?
01:18:32 <fizzie> The definition did say "integer and addressing".
01:19:27 <shachaf> I was just looking at the last sentence.
01:19:55 <DHeadshot> The HD6303 had a 16-bit index register, a 16-bit address bus and with it's combined 16-bit accumulator is as much 16 bit as the 8086, surely?
01:20:20 <fizzie> Z80 is in the same camp.
01:20:30 <fizzie> Yet everyone counts it as 8-bit.
01:20:36 <fizzie> Well, many people, anyway.
01:21:26 <DHeadshot> Z80 had no 16-bit accumulator. Neither did the 6502. The HD6303 did.
01:23:47 * DHeadshot has been reading a lot about the HD6303X recently...
01:24:55 <fizzie> What do you mean, no 16-bit accumulator?
01:25:02 <fizzie> It can do a lot of stuff 16-bit.
01:25:28 <fizzie> Including adding things.
01:25:55 <DHeadshot> Z80 has an 8-bit accumulator and 6 8-bit general purpose registers that can be paired to be 16-bit
01:26:13 <fizzie> That's a ridiculous distinction.
01:26:24 <fizzie> You can increment a 16-bit register pair.
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01:26:29 <DHeadshot> they aren't accumulators technically
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01:29:56 <fizzie> Sure, you can't do everything with them, but AIUI, you can't do everything on the 16-bit pair of the HD6303 either.
01:30:23 <DHeadshot> perhaps
01:30:39 * DHeadshot crawls back into his hole
01:31:48 <fizzie> Admittedly even the Z80 user manual reserves the "accumulator" term for A. I just think it's a little silly.
01:32:36 <DHeadshot> A had functionality not afforded to the other registers, just as AX has over BX, CX and DX...
01:34:18 <fizzie> C has unique functionality as well, and it doesn't get a catchy name.
01:34:22 <fizzie> Time for a petition.
01:34:49 <fizzie> ("IN r, (C)" and "OUT (C), r".)
01:35:01 <DHeadshot> Is it accumulating functionality though?
01:35:34 <DHeadshot> In x86, they all have names: Accumulator, Base register, Counter and Data register...
01:35:49 <fizzie> HL serves as the "16-bit accumulator", arguably.
01:35:59 <DHeadshot> Possibly
01:36:21 <zzo38> I don't know much Z80 programming; I know the 6502 programming though, which has A, X, and Y register, and the operations available on each are different (although some operations are available for more than one of them or for all of them).
01:37:00 <DHeadshot> I thought the 6502 had a B too? Or is that just the 6800 on which it was based?
01:37:40 <zzo38> 6502 has no B register
01:37:55 <DHeadshot> Maybe processors are just too different to conform to our taxonomies...
01:38:19 <DHeadshot> and with that, it's 1:40 AM here. I'm off to bed.
01:38:28 <zzo38> Although the video processor instruction set in a computer design I made has A and B registers (each 8-bits), it is somewhat based on 6502 but there are many differences.
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01:47:16 <fizzie> The TI TMS320C54xx series of DSPs has two accumulators, A and B, each 40 bits wide. (In addition, it has 8 16-bit auxiliary registers AR0 to AR7, and one 16-bit temporary register T.)
01:48:02 <fizzie> I think people call it a 16-bit DSP, even though it's got those 40-bit accumulators.
01:48:04 <zzo38> O, OK I did not know that, now I do
01:48:38 <fizzie> The memory is word-addressilble with a word size of 16, so probably that's fair.
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03:23:08 <\oren\> https://snag.gy/AokWHh.jpg
03:23:17 <\oren\> how am i flying i dont even
03:23:58 <\oren\> not even remotely shaped like an aeroplane
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03:33:21 <krok_> maybe there should be an #esoteric-offtopic
03:33:50 <int-e> supporting the center of gravity... why wouldn't it fly?
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03:54:41 <quintopia> @tell krok_ maybe there should be an #esoteric-offtopic <- that's what #esoteric-blah is for, i think
03:54:42 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
03:55:51 <shachaf> I thought that's what #esoteric was for, and #esoteric-blah is for spam.
03:58:33 <doesthiswork> That explains why #esoteric-ontopic is empty
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07:06:03 <zzo38> I made up a preprocessor for OpenGL shader program to be able to write fractions with slashes, and then I wrote this fragment program: http://sprunge.us/HcjK Do you like this?
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09:42:21 <mroman> int-e: Thanks.
09:42:40 <oerjan> mrelloman
09:43:08 <mroman> It's probably time for cgi.hs to display a textarea instead of a one line input box :D
09:45:38 <int-e> hdbc, seriously?
09:47:46 <mroman> oh
09:47:51 <mroman> I can make that conditionally
09:47:56 <mroman> so you don't need it when building without IO
09:48:02 <mroman> unless that was a complaint about HDBC itself
09:48:07 <mroman> but yes
09:48:14 <mroman> need it for MySQL
09:48:19 <mroman> Burlesque can now do DB stuff
09:48:20 <mroman> \o/
09:48:55 <int-e> setup: The program 'mysql_config' is required but it could not be found <--- hdbc-mysql doesn't build without mysql, so making that optional would be a good idea, I think
09:52:16 <int-e> (and I expect it'll want the mysql client library as well... just didn't get to that point)
09:52:54 <mroman> ok
09:52:58 <mroman> then i'll add some more ifdefs
09:57:07 <mroman> ok. pull and try again.
09:59:05 <mroman> need MySQL so I can write websites in it .
09:59:23 <mroman> I'm not planning on it.
10:00:13 <mroman> (and the support is lousy. Not all data types are even mapped)
10:00:28 <mroman> (Burlesque is lousy. The code is so underdocumented and garbage)
10:00:44 <mroman> (There's like runStack, runStack' and runStack'' and I have no idea what they were all for :D)
10:01:18 <mroman> the way to maintain Burlesque is to ignore all the crapiness and just keep adding stuff.
10:01:43 <mroman> If you don't know what existing stuff exactly does, don't change it, just add more stuff even if it's redundant :D
10:01:56 <int-e> . o O ( where "Burlesque" is a placeholder for any of 99% of all software projects on Earth )
10:02:45 <mroman> http://codepad.org/bILXgFqW <- it know even has better syntax
10:02:50 <mroman> like procedures and stuff
10:03:05 <mroman> but it's just hacked on top of stuff that was hacked on top of some other stuff
10:04:27 <int-e> just say you're building your code on top of an existing framework.
10:04:33 <mroman> but in theory
10:04:47 <mroman> you could now create wrapper procs for all builtins
10:04:54 <mroman> like proc reverse { <- } proc add { ?+ }
10:04:55 <mroman> etc.
10:05:02 <mroman> and it would start to look like a decent language :D
10:05:29 <mroman> also javascript style objects are already on the way
10:05:30 <mroman> :D
10:05:50 <mroman> now that I have I/O I can go completely nuts
10:06:38 <mroman> like mutable hashmaps
10:07:19 <mroman> and this point I'm sure to win "crappiest language on earth" AND "crappiest implementation on earth"
10:07:27 <mroman> *at this
10:08:02 <mroman> but hey
10:08:05 <mroman> 2012 - 2017
10:08:09 <mroman> Burlesque is 5 years old!
10:08:27 <mroman> so we have 5 years of experience and 5 years of supporting customers!
10:08:39 <mroman> and not yet one customer has ever complained
10:08:55 <int-e> anyway it builds... and I've updated it on the VM
10:09:00 <mroman> yay :)
10:09:38 <mroman> so I guess I can update the link on my website
10:10:05 <int-e> I had an old version of the cgi there anyway, but I guess you saw that
10:10:50 <mroman> yep
10:11:17 <mroman> I actually use blsq
10:11:20 <mroman> %in? ln{WD^p'/;;[~'-;;-]{}j_+j_+ri}m[ ><{0!!j0!!==}gb{J0!!0!!j)[~++@1024?/@1024?/@1024?/{}j_+j+]}m[sp
10:11:24 <mroman> that's some code I wrote today
10:11:51 <mroman> to parse some log file with file sizes
10:13:04 <oerjan> . o O ( you should make a build system in it, right \oren\ ? )
10:13:57 <mroman> there was a directory with files in it and I need to copy them to some other system through another system and there's not enough space on disk to do it in a whole bunch
10:14:15 <mroman> so the code above groups the files into "groups of files" and their file sizes
10:14:25 <mroman> so I know how/what I can copy them
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10:18:09 <mroman> also... threads :D
10:18:28 <mroman> gotta go with time and paralell processing is a nice feature
10:20:44 <mroman> there are so many languages like Burlesque, Golfscript, Flogscript
10:20:54 <mroman> nowadays
10:21:11 <mroman> thanks to PPCPG on stackoverflow.
10:21:41 <mroman> so I need to add features to be able to make Burlesque stand out from the rest :p
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10:31:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: ayt?
10:31:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: In M:tG, remember I complained how the phrasing of the Spreading Seas ability is really opaque, and I suggested a reworded ability could make the enchanted land be a copy of a template pristine Island straight from the Gatherer?
10:32:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: I just found a precedent for that: Peacekeeper Avatar (Vanguard) http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=182281 works that way.
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10:49:46 <mroman> also redecorated the webpage (http://mroman.ch/burlesque/) :p
10:57:39 <mroman> Can't I just hire an indian to write the documentation for me :(
10:58:06 <mroman> Or any other person from countries I could actually afford to hire anybody.
11:00:14 <mroman> or I could get some of my students to do it.
11:00:14 <mroman> hm.
11:14:10 <b_jonas> mroman: if you have students, that can help with boring tasks like that. just make sure to prioritize and not overwork them, so they can also grade exams and teach and stuff like that.
11:15:47 <Taneb> I need to apply to be a student again soo
11:15:50 <Taneb> n
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11:47:04 <boily> @tell oerjan !nitam najrøb
11:47:04 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
11:49:53 <Taneb> bonjoily
12:09:15 <boily> Tanelle!
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12:21:18 <mroman> well you can't really ask students for personal favours.
12:21:30 <mroman> it's probably not illegal
12:21:31 <mroman> but still
12:21:42 <mroman> it sounds wrong.
12:23:06 <b_jonas> mroman: of course not. the task they help you in has to be a professional one.
12:23:27 <b_jonas> you're not asking favors, you're giving them tasks for their employment.
12:23:34 <b_jonas> boring tasks
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16:45:57 <\oren\> hippa~
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16:57:00 <\oren\> hackego is back!
16:57:20 <\oren\> `botsnack
16:57:24 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
16:59:26 <b_jonas> oh hey look! everyday heroes comics ("http://eheroes.smackjeeves.com/") has posted two strips and a filler strips, after a hiatus of like 11 months.
17:00:36 <b_jonas> `everydayheroeslist
17:00:37 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: everydayheroeslist: not found
17:00:39 <\oren\> smack jeeves? I remember there was a browser toolbar named ask jeeves a long time ago
17:01:10 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think that's because Jeeves is like some nickname for some common given name in American or something
17:01:22 <b_jonas> or not
17:01:40 <b_jonas> hmm
17:01:53 <Taneb> There was a search engine called Ask Jeeves
17:02:09 <Taneb> After the PG Wodehouse character from Jeeves and Wooster, famously played by Stephen Fry
17:03:16 <\oren\> Taneb: I only remember the toolbar, which was really hard to uninstall, you had to delete fiels and registry keys manually
17:03:38 <Taneb> I think Ask Jeeves was more of a thing in the UK
17:03:56 <Taneb> It folded in, like, 2007??? because everyone and their mum was using Google
17:04:55 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh, like the skype browser plugin that you can disable in the plugin settings, but keeps re-enabling itself every time skype updates itself?
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17:06:20 <b_jonas> and replaces every sequence of digits with a link to call that interpreted as a phone number in skype, everywhere in every webpage?
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17:07:04 <\oren\> WUT
17:07:39 <\oren\> oh god, that sounds like one of the worst browser cancers of the XP era, the dreaded red advertisement links
17:07:54 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, except that one is from the windows 7 era
17:09:05 <\oren\> wow you'd think microsoft would sanction skype for doing that crap
17:09:15 <b_jonas> it's worse than that web-based mailing list archive viewer they used to have on the gnu servers, which thought that if an at sign followed by a letter anywhere in the text of the mail, then it totally has to remove the surrounding part of the text for "spam protection" just in case it's an email address. mangles source code (especially perl) snippets you post on the mailing list unreadable through the archives.
17:09:42 <b_jonas> \oren\: how is microsoft involved? this was before microsoft bought skype, and the plugin applies for the firefox browser
17:10:01 <b_jonas> I think the firefox devs eventually broke the auto-enabler though
17:10:12 <\oren\> oh
17:10:13 <b_jonas> but it took a heck of a long time
17:10:39 <b_jonas> there may have been other skype plugins to non-XUL browsers too, I just don't know about thos
17:11:01 <b_jonas> I wasn't much of an internet explorer user
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17:12:33 <\oren\> apparently the red link disease still exists but they're green and double underlined these days
17:14:23 <\oren\> I dunno I never trusted cool cursor programs again after that.
17:16:25 <b_jonas> hehe
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17:20:12 <Zarutian> wasnt there some years back some .ico and .cur collections offered for free with no strings attached? I downloaded one and it was just a .zip file with instructions where to drag and drop the files. No turing executable code at all and all the files passed virus checkers and format conformity checkers too.
17:20:36 <ais523> Zarutian: well those don't make money, so they don't get advertised aggressively
17:20:48 <ais523> a few years, like every third advert was for "free smileys" or the like
17:21:10 <Zarutian> I have been wondering for a long while, intermittently, what that was about? My current hyppothesis is someone was just sick of seeing badly done icons and cursors.
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17:22:38 <\oren\> Zarutian: it was about spreading trojans
17:22:40 <Zarutian> though there were some intresting adverts on the download page. (Though no fake download buttons)
17:23:02 <\oren\> oh you mean the one you found
17:23:13 <Zarutian> \oren\: yebb.
17:24:15 <\oren\> well I mean I made by own font with 20000 characters because none of the ones I had suited my tastes perfectly
17:25:04 <b_jonas> \oren\: wait, it has 20000 characters now? how many non-hangul ones?
17:25:13 <\oren\> so maybe a rogue graphic artist wanted to spread good icons around
17:25:21 <\oren\> b_jonas: let me check
17:25:39 <Zarutian> that I have seen but advertising it? Though it might be that the author(s) wanted to spread those cursors and icons and used the advertising revenue from the download page ads to pay for their own ads.
17:25:52 <oerjan> @messages-laud
17:25:52 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 38m 47s ago: !nitam najrøb
17:25:59 <int-e> Zarutian: it could also be malware
17:26:03 <\oren\> there are 20758 characters
17:26:24 <Zarutian> int-e: nope, as I said. Passed virus scanners and format checkers.
17:26:54 <\oren\> there are 11,172 precomposed hangul
17:27:31 <\oren\> `dc 20758 11172 - p
17:27:32 <HackEgo> dc: Could not open file 20758 11172 - p
17:27:42 <b_jonas> \oren\: maybe you should add a line to the bottom of allchars.htm telling how many non-hangul chars you have
17:27:45 <\oren\> ` dc <<'20758 11172 - p'
17:27:46 <HackEgo> ​/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
17:27:52 <\oren\> `` dc <<'20758 11172 - p'
17:27:53 <b_jonas> wait, the bot's back now?
17:27:53 <HackEgo> ​/hackenv/bin/`: line 4: warning: here-document at line 4 delimited by end-of-file (wanted `20758 11172 - p')
17:27:54 <Zarutian> virus scanners cant catch everything but if format checkers dont catch it then it is very unlikely that they could exploit something like libpng vulernabilities undetected
17:27:58 <int-e> \oren\: one more <
17:27:58 <b_jonas> there was a quote I wanted to add
17:28:07 <\oren\> `` dc <<<'20758 11172 - p'
17:28:08 <HackEgo> 9586
17:28:15 <b_jonas> `quote opposite of Gnome
17:28:16 <HackEgo> No output.
17:28:25 <b_jonas> `addquote <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
17:28:27 <HackEgo> 1308) <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
17:28:30 <b_jonas> `quote opposite of Gnome
17:28:31 <HackEgo> 1308) <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
17:28:40 <b_jonas> when did the bot come back?
17:28:52 <b_jonas> is the wiki back as writable too now?
17:28:59 <\oren\> 16:59
17:29:10 <\oren\> it's 17:32 right now
17:29:19 <ais523> huh, \oren\ is in the same timezone as me
17:29:26 <\oren\> (according to my server's time zone)
17:29:27 <ais523> \oren\: you don't live in Hexham do you?
17:29:35 <int-e> 17:54:28 --- HackEgo has joined #esoteric
17:29:45 <zzo38> It is still locked. When will you unlock it?
17:29:51 <int-e> (you already sorted out the time zone)
17:30:02 <int-e> \oren\: your clock is 3 minutes fast, I think
17:30:12 <\oren\> not sure how to fix that
17:30:34 <int-e> (barely resisting the temptation to say that it's 57 minutes slow)
17:30:40 <ais523> zzo38: there are two copies of the wiki; the "locked" one is the backup copy, which is permanently read-only (because changes to it wouldn't affect the main copy)
17:30:47 <\oren\> is there a variant of the date command that allows me to subtract
17:31:15 <ais523> `` date -d '1 hour ago'
17:31:16 <HackEgo> Fri Feb 3 16:31:12 UTC 2017
17:31:29 <b_jonas> ``` date +%s # unix epoch timestamp
17:31:30 <HackEgo> 1486143086
17:31:51 <ais523> also I'm disappointed that it isn't using a new zealand variant of UTC
17:32:01 <oerjan> <b_jonas> wait, the bot's back now? <-- OOOOOOH
17:32:09 <zzo38> ais523: Then how to use it?
17:32:20 <b_jonas> ais523: and it's the winter, so the people in Iceland (who are in permanent winter) are in the same timezone as you know as well
17:32:32 <int-e> `` date
17:32:33 <HackEgo> Fri Feb 3 17:32:29 UTC 2017
17:32:51 <ais523> zzo38: once the main server is back up, the esolangs.org name will be directed back at it (although that has to be done manually, probably by fizzie)
17:32:58 <zzo38> O, OK.
17:33:09 <\oren\> so, sudo date -s '3 minutes ago'?
17:33:32 <\oren\> yeah that worked
17:33:58 <\oren\> hehe the clock went back
17:34:16 <oerjan> `botsnack
17:34:17 <HackEgo> ​>:-D
17:34:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes. I usually write it as sudo date -s "now -180sec" or something, then kill -9 $$ after that so I don't accidentally repeat it from the bash history
17:34:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: since you're here, let me repeat what I tried to say from earlier
17:35:16 <zzo38> b_jonas: OK. Maybe I missed it before
17:35:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: In M:tG, remember I complained how the phrasing of the Spreading Seas ability is really opaque, and I suggested a reworded ability could make the enchanted land be a copy of a template pristine Island straight from the Gatherer?
17:35:33 <b_jonas> I just found a precedent for that: Peacekeeper Avatar (Vanguard) http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=182281 works that way.
17:36:29 <b_jonas> Now mind you, that might not mean much, because there's also the Momir Vig avatar card that creates a copy of a random creature card from all the cards available in the format or something
17:36:33 <zzo38> OK, but I think that way isn't very good.
17:36:42 <b_jonas> ok
17:36:45 <zzo38> (nor is the Momir Vig avatar, actually.)
17:37:00 <b_jonas> oh sure
17:37:13 <b_jonas> but that's a different problem
17:37:17 <zzo38> Effects should not depend on the database.
17:37:28 <ais523> b_jonas: IMO the phrasing should be "Enchanted land is an Island with '{T}: add {U} to your mana pool' and no other abilities"
17:37:44 <ais523> (note: this would work under the current rules but would be redundant; however it would allow the rules to be simplified)
17:37:47 <b_jonas> ais523: that doesn't work
17:37:52 <zzo38> ais523: I don't really like that either though.
17:37:57 <ais523> b_jonas: why not?
17:38:02 <b_jonas> ais523: wouldn't that apply the ability removal too high in the layers?
17:38:38 <ais523> it doesn't matter what the layer sequence is, because the "no other abilities" doesn't remove the ability that Spreading Seas grants itself due to the word "other"
17:38:46 <b_jonas> as in, wouldn't it remove abilities added by eg. Urborg, Tomb?
17:38:48 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> Still, those are *real people* we're disappointifying. Not just #esoteric regulars.
17:38:49 <HackEgo> 1309) <fizzie> Still, those are *real people* we're disappointifying. Not just #esoteric regulars.
17:39:11 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, I wasn't trying to replicate the exact current interactions of the card with other cards
17:39:11 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I mean, it would remove too many abilities
17:39:23 <b_jonas> ais523: I didn't try to _exactly_ replicate it either
17:39:27 <b_jonas> just close enoguh to rarely make a difference
17:39:50 <b_jonas> copying a land on it differs too, eg. it would turn Dryad Arbor to a noncreature
17:40:19 <b_jonas> hmm
17:40:26 <zzo38> The subtype gives it the implicit ability "{T}: Add {U} to your mana pool" (i.e. that ability does not come directly from its text). I think that "normal Island" or something like that would work better to not change it too much.
17:40:33 <ais523> it wouldn't make Dryad Arbor a noncreature, it doesn't change permanent types
17:40:51 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I mean _my_ copying solution would turn Dryad Arbor to a noncreature
17:40:54 <ais523> fwiw, I think Islands should have an explicit ability "{T}: add {U} to your mana pool"
17:41:00 <ais523> b_jonas: ah right
17:42:05 <b_jonas> ais523: explicit as in not granted by the subtype?
17:42:13 <ais523> yes
17:42:19 <ais523> printed on the card, too!
17:42:58 <b_jonas> and you're not saying this only because the first printed versions of them had them printed, right? (I have some Fourth Edition Islands in fact).
17:43:18 <alercah> nah, don't need to print it on the card
17:44:24 <b_jonas> I don't really know if they should have an explicit ability, but if they would, I think it might be better if the rules said that the big mana symbol in the text box represents that ability, rather than printing the text.
17:44:35 <ais523> b_jonas: the first printed versions likely followed the same reasoning I am
17:44:48 <ais523> apparently they thought the giant mana symbol version was less confusing for new players
17:44:58 <ais523> although this has lead to a lot of players thinking that llanowar elves was some sort of tutor
17:45:23 <b_jonas> Printing the ability certainly makes teaching beginners easier (there's always beginners who keep confusing lands with mana), but it's distracting for later players, because basic lands are so common and so varied in appearance that the giant mana symbol makes them easier to recognize. You don't have to spend time reading the ability.
17:45:35 <ais523> hmm, maybe I should get the rules for my TCG that shachaf keeps pestering me about finished
17:45:41 <ais523> I had a fairly neat fix for this sort of issue
17:45:45 <b_jonas> "apparently they thought the giant mana symbol version was less confusing for new players" -- what? really?
17:45:48 <b_jonas> no way
17:45:57 <\oren\> I've updated the allchars.txt to include a count of non-hangul
17:46:49 <b_jonas> ais523: um... most TCGs don't have land cards producing mana, so the whole problem doesn't even come up. besides, it's easier to fix these things when you don't have to be compatible with, what, 20 years of history.
17:46:55 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh nice! thanks
17:47:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: wow, 20000 is a lot
17:47:57 <int-e> . o O ( Turing-Complete Game )
17:48:32 <b_jonas> int-e: I don't think a newly defined trading card game would likely be turing complete
17:48:34 <ais523> int-e: like M:tG, you mean? :-)
17:48:44 <int-e> ais523: exactly.
17:48:47 <ais523> b_jonas: it's typically only a matter of the right cards being printed
17:48:49 <b_jonas> it takes lots of expansions to get enough crazy cards for that
17:48:53 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah
17:48:54 <ais523> in theory you could have a card that's Turing-complete by itself
17:48:58 <b_jonas> well sure
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17:49:09 <b_jonas> but most games don't aim for that
17:49:41 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Subtractpocalypse was inspired by FTL's scripting system, for what it's worth
17:49:58 <ais523> although that only has four variables, and the TCness proof needs more
17:50:15 <b_jonas> and I think some games actively try to avoid infinite resource completion by some resource ranking, so that every game ends in a finite time, and the game tree is limited by a smallish ordinal
17:51:51 <b_jonas> resource ranking as in some ordering of the kinds of resources such that you can get any of a kind of resource only by spending some of a resource that's greater in the ordering, and every resource is quantized so you can only have natural number of amounts of them
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17:56:40 <ais523> btw, there was just a wallop warning that this sort of thing might happen
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17:56:51 <ais523> (repeated very short netsplits, that is)
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18:10:04 * oerjan uses curl --connect-to to check that the real wiki is up
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18:17:20 * int-e has edited /etc/hosts
18:17:37 <int-e> and then I realized that I don't really have anything to edit on the wiki.
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18:27:11 <fizzie> Oh, it's back? I didn't even notice.
18:27:15 <fizzie> Let me flip the DNS then.
18:28:28 <zzo38> I think that Islands should not have the explicit ability "{T}: Add {U} into your mana pool", but it should have that printed as reminder text.
18:28:54 <zzo38> (Except for special versions with flavor text, which would omit the reminder text)
18:29:32 <int-e> do they still make those lands with just the name and artwork?
18:31:21 <ais523> int-e: they save them for special occasions
18:31:28 <ais523> the last time was Battle for Zendikar block
18:32:16 <ais523> which is widely regarded as one of the worst blocks to be released recently; they used full-art lands and Masterpiece cards in an attempt to get people to buy it anyway
18:32:50 <ais523> worst both in terms of undesirable cards and bad internal balance/playability
18:34:00 <fizzie> In retrospect, I should've set a TTL of less than a day for the temporary name.
18:34:11 <fizzie> Now it'll take a day again to propagate to.
18:34:23 <ais523> I tend to use 5-minute TTLs if there's any chance that I might need to change it in the near future
18:34:35 <fizzie> That would've been reasonable.
18:35:05 <fizzie> Let's plop the wiki bridge back up as well.
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18:36:19 <ais523> anyway, I visited the site and got the editable version
18:36:25 <ais523> so I think it's working?
18:36:50 <fizzie> Yes, I can see the right things with dig.
18:37:14 <fizzie> With the right @nameservers, that is.
18:38:03 <fizzie> In 9684 seconds, I should see it even without.
18:39:36 <int-e> wow, TTL is 55799 here
18:39:47 <int-e> (I'll survive that long)
18:40:11 <oerjan> . o O ( i thought you said you changed /etc/hosts )
18:41:00 <int-e> oerjan: I did. I can still query nameservers ;-)
18:41:41 <\oren\> I made a program to run every iteration of a long shell script to show it hasn't frozen
18:41:52 <\oren\> http://orenwatson.be/stars.c.htm
18:42:20 <oerjan> hm, there should be a way to ask a nameserver to drop a name from cache.
18:42:29 <\oren\> it displays a random goofy unicode symbol each second
18:43:12 <\oren\> if the symbol keeps changing, the script hasn't frozen
18:43:30 <int-e> oerjan: tricky, on whose authority?
18:43:56 <oerjan> int-e: there might be some throttling, in which case it should be harmless...
18:44:35 <int-e> oerjan: I'm trying to figure out whether this would simplify dns cache poisoning or make it harder.
18:44:38 <oerjan> hm except that might DOS the central one.
18:45:00 <oerjan> (if you sent it to many DNS servers)
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18:45:24 <int-e> (but I suspect that overall it would make it simpler... and yes there's a potential DoS vector there)
18:47:32 <oerjan> always complications
18:53:43 <\oren\> the solution to DoS is to use DOS
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18:55:24 <ais523> on Wikipedia, the only throttling used to be that "drop cache" requests had to be sent by POST unless you were logged in
18:55:31 <ais523> (to prevent them being hit by accident by spiders)
18:55:45 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if they added a CAPTCHA to it though
18:56:56 <\oren\> Hmm, maybe I'll write a Jelly interpreter in C
18:57:26 <quintopia> b_jonas: before i had to reboot, it seemed you were talking about game designer intentionally building hydrae out of resources. any evidence of that?
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18:59:11 <wob_jonas> quintopia: hydrae in what sense? I don't understand
18:59:17 <wob_jonas> oh, that sort of hydrae
19:01:54 <wob_jonas> quintopia: the only direct evidence I have is the Irregulars' goldfish cube, where the writeup tells it was designed that way:
19:02:04 <ais523> \oren\: make sure you use a bignum library, it's fairly important to many Jelly programs
19:03:14 <wob_jonas> http://www.mezzacotta.net/magic/goldfish/Cube_Design.html
19:04:31 <wob_jonas> quintopia: but I think to some amount the thought is there in M:tG design too, even if they don't completely insist on it. and sometimes they change the ordering, eg. recently they decided you can't just sacrifice your permanents for free in newer sets, despite that old sets have a lot of abilities with just sacrificing a creature as a cost,
19:05:00 <wob_jonas> so they're effectively moving sacrificing stuff up in the ordering, and can let you gain resources from stuff dying more easily
19:05:36 <wob_jonas> quintopia: even at the basic level, cards generally want to move in the order library -> hand -> stack -> battlefield -> graveyard -> exile and less often backwards, which is a form of this
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19:18:33 <zzo38> Where do the ante zone and command zone fit into this?
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19:56:11 <\oren\> hmm, there's javascript and coffeescript, but no lattescript or mochascript or cappucinoscript
19:56:19 <hppavilion1> `? FSM
19:56:20 <HackEgo> An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
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19:57:11 <\oren\> or what about mate script
19:57:44 <oerjan> . o O ( G'day, World! )
19:58:52 <\oren\> oerjan: I was thinking of the beverage made with yerba
19:59:04 <oerjan> i know.
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20:24:15 <Zarutian> I am wondering why freenode has these long timeouts, more infrequent timer interrupts or is it so that if someone is on flaky wifi isnt spamming channels with join and quit messages?
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20:32:45 <ais523> Zarutian: I often have a flaky connectoin and reach really high timeouts withotu disconnecting
20:43:14 <\oren\> I can't wait for LIFI to become commercial
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20:50:25 <Zarutian> \oren\: what is that?
20:54:36 <deltab> optical wireless
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21:00:36 <\oren\> it means that you have a blinking LED that blinks so fast it transmits the internet into your computer
21:02:08 <oerjan> just one internet?
21:02:52 <\oren\> as much internet as needed
21:03:10 <oerjan> fancy
21:03:24 <ais523> oerjan: internets have a tendency to get connected to each other, which makes them just a single internet again
21:03:27 <ais523> so there's only one really big one
21:04:46 <oerjan> that's the joke.gif
21:05:05 <ais523> there is more than one internet though (the other large ones tend to be military)
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21:13:40 <fizzie> There's a fancy hacky optical point-to-point network thing.
21:13:50 -!- tromp has joined.
21:13:54 <fizzie> http://ronja.twibright.com/
21:17:40 <fizzie> There's just something appealing of having a BEAM of DATA.
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21:25:26 <zzo38> I want to use a single-file key/value database where the keys are 32-bit numbers and the values are arbitrary binary data, in a way which is suitable for both reading and writing but mostly for reading.
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22:52:49 <\oren\> zzo38: if the value can be limited to for eixample, 1 KB, then you can use a 4 TB sparse file
22:54:56 <\oren\> and just use lseek64(fildes, key * 1024, SEEK_SET); and then read the value
22:55:59 <\oren\> however this may be considered a heinous abuse of a file system
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22:59:55 <zzo38> I do not want to use sparse files.
23:03:27 <\oren\> ok then, a simple and easy method would be to use SQLite
23:04:04 <shachaf> zzo38: Why single-file?
23:04:38 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:05:29 <\oren\> a SQLite database is a single file
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23:59:47 <LKoen> zzo38: I have collected chess symbols for all the pieces from orwell chess; they can be printed and pasted on checkers pieces to make a physical set https://www.docdroid.net/dc9snGI/printable.pdf.html
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