←2017-02-01 2017-02-02 2017-02-03→ ↑2017 ↑all
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01:02:48 <fizzie> (I'd also like to put in a banner since the wgReadOnly setting is pretty subtle, but looks like the simple ways to do that would involve extensions, and I don't want to start fiddling with the templates.)
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01:58:19 <boily> `wisdom
01:59:36 <fizzie> We've been over this.
01:59:57 <boily> fizziello? over what?
02:00:37 <fizzie> 19:12 <Gregor> Not really much I can do about it :)
02:00:37 <fizzie> 19:13 <int-e> Yeah. You can create a ticket and wait while CaC totally ignores it.
02:00:40 <fizzie> 19:14 <Gregor> Yup.
02:00:47 <fizzie> Over that.
02:01:22 * boily feels like a junkie without his daily fix
02:01:29 * boily twitches
02:01:56 <fizzie> Don't you have that PDF?
02:02:14 <fizzie> You should print it out, then you can throw darts at it to pick one.
02:03:38 <boily> going to print it, bind it, and mail it to whomever that wants to have a dead tree copy.
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02:21:08 <boily> hppavellon[1]. you're rebracketed!
02:36:47 <quintopia> helloily. go to bed!
02:37:01 <boily> quinthellopia. going to bed!
02:37:05 <quintopia> i'll fix you daily
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09:29:41 <b_jonas> `ping
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11:07:13 <fizzie> Heh, a familiar name: http://thedailywtf.com/images/17/q1/e244/Pic-4.png
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11:36:41 <oerjan> bohily
11:38:44 <boily> hellørjan!
11:39:44 <rdococ> helloerjoily
11:40:45 <boily> rdochelloc!
11:43:51 <oerjan> rdocociao
11:45:23 <izabera> let me share with you the pride of my town http://www.rionesanpaolo-asti.it/IMMAGINIFOTO/varie/territorio/campo%20del%20palio/campodelpalio%20(2).JPG
11:45:45 <izabera> a penis shaped building built in the 1920s or 30s
11:46:06 <izabera> it's meant to represent virility and such
11:46:42 <boily> izabellora. that is one ugly building.
11:46:53 <izabera> ikr
11:48:16 <fizzie> Let's do a tower comparison. Here's the one in the town my parents are from: http://esukki.mbnet.fi/images/vesitor.jpg
11:50:12 <boily> yours is mushroomy hth
11:50:40 <fizzie> tdh
11:53:21 <Taneb> Here's a water tower that used to be at my uni: https://www.york.ac.uk/media/chemistry/archivephotos/watertower/watertower1.jpg
11:53:21 <boily> that's probably the thing that is most like a tower in my hometown: https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/06/98/24/ee/observatoire-de-la-capitale.jpg
11:54:28 <boily> Tanelle. concrete https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socotra#/media/File:Socotra_dragon_tree.JPG ?
11:54:49 <Taneb> boily, it was known as "the mushroom"
11:55:40 <boily> a very concrete mushroom.
11:56:16 <Taneb> It was built in the 60s when times were simple and everything was concrete
11:58:13 <fizzie> There's a ufo-shaped one in Espoo.
11:58:33 <fizzie> http://s114.photobucket.com/user/Janne_H_2006/media/haikaranpesa.jpg.html
11:58:38 <fizzie> There's a restaurant up top.
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12:00:06 <Alfie275> `tanebventions
12:00:27 <Taneb> Alfie275, the bot is missing
12:00:33 <Alfie275> ah
12:00:40 <b_jonas> izabera: nice.
12:02:17 <boily> Alfiello275, b_jellonas.
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12:05:47 <b_jonas> I don't know of a penis-shaped building here, but there's a maize ear shaped one: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kis-Sv%C3%A1b_Hill_Protection_Area._View_to_Hotel_Budapest._-_Budapest.JPG
12:06:46 <b_jonas> so yummy, with those thousand corn seeds, you could just bite in it if you were a giant
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12:11:40 <boily> `wisdom
12:11:45 <boily> ...
12:11:57 * boily faceheaddesks
12:17:38 <fizzie> Well, speaking of vegetables, of course here in London we've got the http://londontopia.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/The-Gherkin_safra-group.jpg
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12:30:40 <GReaperEx> Are there any cool Brainloller images out there? Like, the image should look like something, instead of just random noise.
12:38:50 <fizzie> Somehow I feel that it's more likely you'd find Piet programs instead.
12:40:38 <oerjan> i made a comment on that /r/esolangs post.
12:41:20 <GReaperEx> piet you say?... hmm
12:41:45 <fizzie> oerjan: That was well done.
12:42:01 <oerjan> heh, thanks
12:42:19 <fizzie> GReaperEx: Granted, a lot of Piet programs are random noise as well. But there's some stuff, like the sample hello-world: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/hw6_big.png
12:42:59 <fizzie> There was also a Facebook recruiting ad puzzle thing in Piet, done in the shape of their 'f' logo.
12:43:20 <GReaperEx> oh, that's cool!
12:44:08 <fizzie> And the pi calculator is very nice as well.
12:44:23 <fizzie> http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/piet/samples.html has all the "official" samples.
12:44:36 <fizzie> (Look for a big red thing.)
12:45:03 <GReaperEx> I guess any image could be created really, as long as you don't use the specific colors that translate to instructions. The interpreter should ignore anything else, right?
12:45:40 <fizzie> Piet doesn't define what colors except the 20 specific ones do.
12:45:50 <fizzie> "Additional colours (such as orange, brown) may be used, though their effect is implementation-dependent. In the simplest case, non-standard colours are treated by the language interpreter as the same as white, so may be used freely wherever white is used. (Another possibility is that they are treated the same as black.)"
12:46:05 <fizzie> So it's a bit risky business.
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12:46:23 <fizzie> I don't know about Brainloller, DNS for esolangs.org hasn't updated for me at work. :/
12:46:50 <GReaperEx> oh I see, implementation-defined and such.
12:46:59 <fizzie> If you're talking about an image of appreciable size, though, it's probably pretty easy to just arrange matters so that execution doesn't pass through the extra colors.
12:47:21 <GReaperEx> yes, that could be done too.
12:47:22 <fizzie> For example, there's this: http://www.mezzacotta.net/garfield/?comic=559
12:47:54 <GReaperEx> nice, pretty clever.
12:48:52 <fizzie> I did that pretty much by tweaking the noise left over (after palette conversion) a little bit.
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14:20:03 <b_jonas> where's zzo38?
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14:20:31 <Taneb> Canada I think
14:30:57 <b_jonas> `ping
14:32:47 <Taneb> HackEgo is also at Canada
14:34:29 * int-e hugs fizzie platonically
14:35:06 <int-e> (I have wiki!)
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15:52:31 <\oren\> OH FOR THE LOVE OF
15:52:57 <\oren\> Why is there so much issues with the command line arguments ength limit
15:55:00 <b_jonas> \oren\: the 2 megabyte linux one, the 32k windows one, or the 127 byte DOS one?
15:56:02 <b_jonas> the 127 byte DOS one is funny, because file paths can be up to 80 bytes long
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16:14:33 <\oren\> b_jonas: the 2 megabyte linux one
16:15:02 <ais523> \oren\: by issues, do you mean it causes issues by existing, or that it's badly implemented?
16:19:24 <\oren\> ais523: I mean that our command lines keep exceeding it
16:19:39 <\oren\> and we have to rework things so they don't
16:20:09 <ais523> I assume you're passing data via the command line which is more commonly passed in files?
16:20:42 <ais523> many DOS programs had a convention that @ followed by a filename would treat the entire contents of the file as command line options
16:22:41 <\oren\> ais523: it's a list of files. but it got too many
16:23:01 <ais523> so how many files is 2MB of filenames?
16:23:18 <\oren\> a lot
16:24:29 <\oren\> they're of the form /projects/Codename/Lyoko/SomeStupidClassName.{cpp,h,xx,yy,zzzzz.xx}
16:24:52 <ais523> interesting extensions
16:25:58 <\oren\> we use a lot of various stupid extentions for internal lanuages
16:27:06 <\oren\> (yes, plural. there are at least 3 languages used only at this company and nowhere else)
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16:28:07 <\oren\> to say othing of the .generated.cpp and etc file
16:28:19 <\oren\> and the .generated.2.cpp
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16:29:32 <int-e> and how do they all end up on the same command line?
16:29:45 <\oren\> and the build system doesn't properly detect when these .generated files need to be regenerated, so before a build be have to delete tham
16:30:39 <\oren\> int-e: by shell scripts passing them into other shell scripts
16:31:15 <int-e> . o O ( why not use make... make isn't perfect but it's almost certainly better than that)
16:31:17 <\oren\> (or into scripts written in an internal scripting language)
16:37:46 <\oren\> where the script interpreter has a slow interpreter that spends a long time parsing things
16:47:11 <b_jonas> \oren\: if it's three languages, then two unsual extensions xx and zzzzz.xx isn't that many
16:47:31 <b_jonas> yy is the extension for yacc files that contain c++ code of course, it's not unusual
16:48:08 <\oren\> b_jonas: those are just paceholders for the actual extensions
16:49:11 <\oren\> wait hold on Salmon is open source anyway
16:49:18 <\oren\> wtf am i talking about
16:49:43 <\oren\> the extentions are .salm, .jt.se, .comspec.se and .se
16:49:58 <izabera> `? asdklfaskldfa
16:50:30 <b_jonas> ah
16:50:37 <izabera> where's the fucking bot -.-
16:50:50 <b_jonas> izabera: not dead, just pinin' the fjords
16:51:17 <\oren\> izabera: dead until cloud at cocks fixes it
16:52:46 <izabera> it took them 3 weeks to reply to my last ticket
16:53:02 <ais523> zemhill: help
16:53:17 <ais523> oh, it has underscores?
16:53:20 <ais523> zemhill__: help
16:53:27 <ais523> I'm not sure if it responds to its name anyway
16:53:37 <ais523> ^help
16:53:37 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
16:53:45 <ais523> ah, we have at least one working bot, at least
16:54:08 <\oren\> Maybe I should have my bot have an alternative prefix that is in ascii
16:54:08 <b_jonas> [ 2
16:54:09 <ffj-bot> b_jonas: 2
16:54:10 <b_jonas> two
16:54:39 <b_jonas> > reverse"eerht"
16:54:41 <lambdabot> "three"
16:54:46 <\oren\> maybe ## as an alternative to ❄
16:55:29 <\oren\> ^prefixes
16:55:29 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , j-bot [ .
16:56:27 <b_jonas> and the tunes.org logbot is working too
16:56:29 <\oren\> or maybe something cool like }|{
16:57:25 <b_jonas> \oren\: couldn't it just listen to its nick as a prefix?
16:57:47 <b_jonas> ffj-bot: 'I listen to my nick'
16:57:48 <ffj-bot> b_jonas: I listen to my nick
17:00:02 <ais523> ffj-bot: 1 2 3 4 5 +/
17:00:02 <ffj-bot> ais523: |syntax error
17:00:02 <ffj-bot> ais523: | 1 2 3 4 5+/
17:00:05 <ais523> hmm
17:00:35 <ais523> so easy to get the various APL-alikes confused
17:00:46 <\oren\> b_jonas: not sure how to get my own nick in irssi scripts
17:00:48 <b_jonas> ais523: in whta apl-alike does that work?
17:01:01 <b_jonas> [ +/ 1 2 3 4 5
17:01:02 <ffj-bot> b_jonas: 15
17:01:07 <ais523> not sure, but I thought there was one where "1 2 3 4 5" was a list constructor
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17:01:15 <b_jonas> yes, it is in most
17:01:23 <ais523> I guess I got the evaluation order wrong
17:01:52 <ais523> I'm used to Jelly, where you have to start with a constant
17:02:05 <ais523> and then the rest of the program is a function that takes the constant as input
17:02:15 <b_jonas> the problem is that the stack consists of a noun followed by a verb with nothing before, which is not allowed by the grammar
17:02:25 <b_jonas> I see
17:03:28 <b_jonas> anyway, 1 2 3 4 5 is a list constructor in almost any apl-like, but (1 2) (3 4) is different: in some classical APLs it constructs a list of lists or something, in J it's a syntax error, in K I think it constructs a single flat list but I'm not sure
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17:09:14 <\oren\> \oren\: ping
17:09:20 <\oren\> \oren\:ping
17:09:37 <\oren\> AAAAA
17:10:35 <ais523> b_jonas: Jelly's list syntax is [1,2,3,4,5], but literal lists are pretty rare
17:11:13 <\oren\> \oren\:ping
17:11:13 <\oren\> ☃ pong
17:11:15 <\oren\> \oren\: ping
17:11:15 <\oren\> ☃ nonextant cmd.
17:11:20 <\oren\> RRGH
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17:12:37 <\oren\> \oren\: ping
17:12:37 <\oren\> ☃ pong
17:12:47 <\oren\> there we go
17:37:38 <\oren\> ok now to test
17:37:56 <\oren\> ❄bf +[]
17:39:39 <\oren\> ❄bf +[]
17:39:42 <\oren\>
17:43:43 <\oren\> ❄bf +[]
17:43:43 <\oren\>
17:43:48 <\oren\> there
17:45:08 <\oren\> ❄bf ++++++[->++++++<]>...[]
17:45:08 <\oren\>
17:45:51 <\oren\> ❄bf +++++++[->+++++++<]>...[]
17:45:51 <\oren\>
17:46:03 <\oren\> hmmm...
17:49:21 <\oren\> ❄bf ++++++[->++++++<]>...[]
17:49:21 <\oren\>
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17:56:59 <\oren\> ❄bf ++++++[->++++++<]>...[]
17:56:59 <\oren\>
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18:13:49 <fizzie> fungot is a working bot.
18:13:49 <fungot> fizzie: i was talking about a 4k ( which excludes my possible participation), i'm kinda new here.
18:15:00 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Something about the IRC bot Ruby framework zemhill is using causes it to collect underscores.
18:15:00 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:16:00 <fizzie> !help
18:16:01 <zemhill__> fizzie: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
18:16:23 <fizzie> @tell And rather confusingly, it answers to !help with the help message.
18:16:24 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
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18:16:28 <fizzie> Whoops.
18:16:33 <fizzie> @tell ais523 And rather confusingly, it answers to !help with the help message.
18:16:33 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
18:16:46 <fizzie> I wonder how many messages "and" has.
18:16:55 <fizzie> And/or if they're on any channels lambdabot is.
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18:17:32 <and> hi
18:17:41 <and> @messages-loud
18:17:41 <lambdabot> fizzie said 1m 17s ago: rather confusingly, it answers to !help with the help message.
18:17:51 <shachaf> underwhelming tdnh
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18:18:14 <int-e> fizzie: the answer is, none.
18:19:50 <int-e> which is weird, hmm
18:20:38 <shachaf> What's weird?
18:21:48 <int-e> oh, you emptied the bucket.
18:21:54 <int-e> never mind.
18:22:24 <fizzie> It wasn't a big bucket.
18:22:33 <fizzie> I'd call that a teacup, maybe.
18:22:40 <shachaf> I thought you were making a joke when you said none.
18:23:03 <shachaf> Do they drink tea in London?
18:23:39 <int-e> there are messages to <ais523>, <boily>, <b_jonas>, <mroman> and <oerjan> though... that won't work very well.
18:24:03 <shachaf> lambdabot was patched to allow @tell nick: instead of @tell nick
18:24:19 <shachaf> I suppose it ought to allow @tell <nick> too.
18:25:26 <int-e> even "I" has only a single message
18:27:46 <shachaf> i,i I, for one, like roman numerals
18:28:09 <int-e> ... punny
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18:29:45 <shachaf> It's not a funpun, though. I read it on the Internet somewhere.
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18:30:57 <fizzie> shachaf: I think they do.
18:31:18 <fizzie> shachaf: https://www.flickr.com/photos/fizzief/31751878454/
18:31:24 <fizzie> (That's in London.)
18:31:55 <shachaf> Is London more expensive to live in than San Francisco?
18:32:19 <fizzie> I don't think there's a scalar answer to that.
18:33:17 <shachaf> You were buying real estate in London the other day, weren't you?
18:33:55 <fizzie> Nnnot really, I just look at what's available occasionally.
18:34:02 <fizzie> Maybe later.
18:34:43 <shachaf> Do you think buying real estate in the bay area is a good idea?
18:35:09 <fizzie> Depends. Do you think California will become an independent country, and if so, will there be war?
18:35:20 <fizzie> I hear you're (/they're) talking that sort of talks.
18:35:23 <pikhq> I suspect living in the urban area of London is cheaper than in the urban area of SF, but living in the central region of London most analogous to SF proper probably is comparable.
18:36:07 <pikhq> (the cost of living in the Bay Area doesn't go down *that* much outside of SF, and transportation gets pretty hard the further you are from your work there.)
18:36:31 <shachaf> It's a fair bit lower around here, I think.
18:36:58 <pikhq> ... While in London, at least you have transport options meaning you can quite sanely live in a cheaper part of the region.
18:37:09 <fizzie> pikhq: Except when they're on strike.
18:37:20 <fizzie> (There's a tube strike coming from Sunday to Wednesday.)
18:38:02 <shachaf> Not 24 hours like usual.
18:38:39 <fizzie> Yes, can you tell I'm all frazzled about it?
18:39:29 <int-e> first May, then Trump, now this... the world is truly coming to an end
18:40:38 <int-e> and of course there's the sudden decline of CaC quality of service!
18:49:12 <fizzie> I toyed about the idea of running it on Google Cloud Platform, but turns out it doesn't support "individual" account types in the EU area, for VAT reasons.
18:49:22 <fizzie> (Where it == the wiki.)
18:51:32 <shachaf> good thing y'all scrapped the EU area hth
18:52:24 <shachaf> "If the sole purpose for which you want to use Google Cloud Platform services has no potential economic benefit you should discontinue your use of the service. Learn how to disable billing on your projects."
18:53:37 <int-e> economic benefit... to whom?!
18:54:26 <fizzie> I could be a "business", but then I believe I would have to pay VAT myself.
18:54:48 <int-e> yes, you would
18:54:54 <\oren\> next will be Geert Wilders, then Marine Le Pen
18:55:03 <fizzie> We have a Googler-internal coupon thing for some credits that should be sufficient, but I don't know how that interacts with tax.
18:55:20 <fizzie> Also not sure if I can even redeem that coupon with a non-"Individual" account type.
18:55:35 <int-e> afaiu the thing about VAT in the EU is that companies have to pay VAT in the customer's country of origin (and VAT rates differ between countries too)
18:56:22 <int-e> but nonetheless the sentence that shachaf quoted strikes me as odd.
18:56:31 <int-e> it's so unspecific
18:56:43 <shachaf> Well, it comes after several other sentences.
18:56:46 <fizzie> That's my understanding as well. And Russia changed their rules the same way, which means Google Cloud did the same thing for Russia. (Saw the thing shachaf quoted sent also for them.)
18:57:42 <int-e> shachaf: oh this comes after a specific list of uses that they're actually interested in? that would make sense
18:57:45 <fizzie> If I "pay" with a coupon, would I be liable for tax? I have absolutely no intuition (the best way to figure out taxation) about this.
18:58:06 <fizzie> int-e: It wasn't *that* specific.
18:58:13 <shachaf> int-e: https://support.google.com/cloud/answer/6090602
18:58:32 <shachaf> fizzie: While you're figuring out taxation, can you help me with the US tax code?
18:58:46 <shachaf> What constitutes "substantially identical" securities for the wash sale rule?
18:59:10 <fizzie> shachaf: Levenshtein distance of less than three hth
18:59:14 <shachaf> (This is less relevant nowadays since all my securities' prices have gone up.)
19:05:48 <int-e> huh, "Most software developers -- including affiliates, sole traders, self-employed merchants, partnerships, students and others -- use Google Cloud Platform for business purposes." really rings false to me.
19:06:35 <int-e> (students, really? and there are plenty of hobbyists, too, I'd think.)
19:06:41 <pikhq> I'm reading that as "Most software developers (who use Google Cloud Platforms) use Google Cloud Platform for business purposes."
19:07:26 <pikhq> Still, that is... Bizarre.
19:07:45 <pikhq> They just punted on the idea of end-user users of the service in Europe.
19:07:54 <pikhq> (which kills the viability of the service, IMO)
19:08:14 <pikhq> I imagine nobody would be using AWS if it had a similar setup back when.
19:09:42 <int-e> fizzie might *just* be fine as long as the billed amount remains a flat zero.
19:10:20 <int-e> but obviously that's just an opinion, not sure what the legal situation really is.
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19:44:35 <fizzie> int-e: Well, it says "you'd like to see a potential economic benefit from your development activities, for example: using the Google Cloud Platform to develop prototypes or applications with a view to generating revenue in the future."
19:44:39 <fizzie> int-e: Arguably if you intend to have a career in software, everything you do to learn things while a student of that field has a "business purpose".
19:45:04 <pikhq> That sounds like an atypical view of the term to me.
19:45:19 <pikhq> But I'm not a lawyer and especially not a European lawyer.
19:45:33 <ais523> fizzie (and anyone else who cares): Stack Exchange gives a certain amount of free advertising space to their communities, while people are viewing them
19:45:48 <shachaf> pikhq: have you considered law school hth
19:45:54 <ais523> PPCG are considering producing an advert for Esolang (which would show some proportion of the time when people visited PPCG)
19:45:59 <pikhq> Considered? I guess I have, yes.
19:46:13 <ais523> do we want one? and if so, what would it look like?
19:46:49 <shachaf> Presumably it would involve limes.
19:47:16 <ais523> that's what the PPCG chat said too
19:47:31 <ais523> but really, it should convey to the typical PPCG audience why they'd want to visit our site
19:48:12 <shachaf> PPCG seems to stand for Programming Puzzles & Code Golf, by the way.
19:49:36 <ais523> yes
19:49:44 <ais523> they're probably the Internet's biggest user of esolangs
19:50:16 <ais523> I've been aware of them for ages but resisted joining, typically I persuaded lynn to relay messages
19:50:25 <ais523> but in the end I finally gave in and now I'm relaying the messages myself
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20:22:53 <FireFly> Heh
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20:29:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: about the community ads, one thing I was wondering is making one where the image is regularly replaced by a bot. it's a bit tricky, because you need to use the SE api for editing, which is nontrivial to implement, plus upload the images to their server, but it's possible and somewhat esoteric.
20:30:00 <ais523> wob_jonas: normally they just do that by directing the image to a server that updates, I think?
20:30:16 <ais523> like, the image file is hosted elsewhere and just gets replaced on the server that hosts it
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20:30:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: also, I've been relaying messages on SE for a while, I can do it for you too if you want, but then since you're already joined it'd be more strange
20:31:15 <wob_jonas> ais523: no, the rules for the community ads specifically say the image must be hosted on imgur, and they probably enforce that
20:31:28 <wob_jonas> but someone's already documented how to automatically upload an image there
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20:32:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: http://meta.scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/10564/community-promotion-ads-2017 "Must be hosted through our standard image uploader (imgur)"
20:32:46 <wob_jonas> if it was as easy as directing the ad to my server, then I'd have done it by now
20:33:27 <wob_jonas> although ordinary SE posts do allow images on your own server, so someone who wants that thing could collect a lot of traffic logs that way
20:34:03 <wob_jonas> (unless you're in control of the imgur servers of course)
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20:58:07 <fizzie> Having an ad would be exciting, though I don't have any good, creative ideas re content, and it'd probably be best to do at at some time when the wiki's actually up.
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20:59:58 <DHeadshot> Which is the esolang that had comments entirely and only written in malaysian? I can't remember...
21:07:17 <wob_jonas> fizzie: the wiki is up, or so it seems to me
21:07:52 <wob_jonas> DHeadshot: dunno, that reminds me to http://esolangs.org/wiki/%D0%AE%E1%93%82%EA%B3%A7%E2%8E%94 but doesn't match
21:10:10 <wob_jonas> DHeadshot: found it: http://esolangs.org/wiki/SON-OF-UNBABTIZED . you just have to search for "malaysian" in the wiki
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21:34:34 <ais523> fizzie: the ad's likely to run all of 2017, and can be repeated next year if people like it
21:34:37 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
21:34:53 <ais523> (err, all of the remainder of 2017 )
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21:42:14 <fizzie> wob_jonas: It's not properly up.
21:42:40 <fizzie> wob_jonas: I have a read-only backup copy running next to my feet here, but the disk access noises are annoying my wife.
21:44:44 <wob_jonas> fizzie: I see
21:45:05 <wob_jonas> and thanks for doing that
21:45:16 <wob_jonas> also thanks to your wife for tolerating it
21:49:48 <ais523> hmm, this new laptop appears to have a touchpadbinding that does the same thing as alt-tab
21:49:58 <ais523> I've hit it several times by accident, but experimentation fails to reveal what it is
21:50:22 <wob_jonas> ouch
21:50:33 <ais523> it doesn't appear to be a three- or four-finger drag up, down, left, or right
21:50:38 <wob_jonas> is there some software that lets you control settings related to that touchpad?
21:50:45 <ais523> although I did discover that a four-finger tap opens the "start menu" equivalent
21:50:58 <wob_jonas> ais523: perhaps it's on some particular area, like near some corner or edge?
21:51:02 <ais523> wob_jonas: on Windows, yes; this is on Linux, though, so I assume something in Ubuntu is involved
21:51:07 <wob_jonas> some touchpads have special functions near the edges and corners
21:51:24 <ais523> top right corner appears to be middle-click, I figured that one out a while back
21:51:42 <ais523> none of the other corners react to taps
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21:53:17 <wob_jonas> common functions include mouse wheel if you drag the right or bottom edge, and locking touchpad if you double-tap the corner with the led that shows whether it's locked
21:53:35 <fizzie> My work laptop has a touchpad with "non-physical" buttons like that, and I never quite managed to configure it exactly the way it should work, even with a lot of fiddling with synclient.
21:54:11 <ais523> wob_jonas: this touchpad doesn't do either of those
21:54:26 <ais523> incidentally, I'm somewhat impressed that it can distinguish a four- from a three-finger tap
21:55:16 <wob_jonas> ais523: lots of years ago, I had a combination of motherboard, mouse, and software that would occasionally sometimes become mad and start jumping large distances wildly and clicking, even though I just move the mouse. stops when the mouse stops moving, and becomes normal after.
21:55:40 <wob_jonas> sadly, the huge distances often moved the mouse to the very corner of the screen, where the close button of a window is
21:55:56 <fizzie> I wonder if these HasSecondarySoftButtons / SecondarySoftButtonAreas options existed when I was trying.
21:55:59 <wob_jonas> ais523: is it possible that this alt-tab thing is not a symptom of a similar bug?
21:56:32 <ais523> nah, I'm pretty sure it's intentional
21:56:45 <\oren\> I prefer using a bleutoth mouse nayway
21:56:52 <ais523> simply that I haven't figured out the trigger
21:56:59 <ais523> maybe it's buried deep in ccsm somewhere
21:57:19 <wob_jonas> ais523: have you tried searching the internet, including either "ubuntu" or the model of the notebook?
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21:57:52 <wob_jonas> you can often find posts on the internet about such things
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21:59:24 <ais523> this feels like the sort of thing I should be able to figure out myself :-(
22:00:26 <ais523> aha, it's a double three-finger tap
22:02:06 <ais523> I also found the docs for it online (after figuring that out), and it seems that much of its functionality isn't working
22:02:11 <ais523> only the "switch to previous window"
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22:04:08 <fizzie> I keep forgetting whether "drag with the right button" is executed as a two-finger tap followed by a single-finger drag, or a single-finger tap followed by a double-finger drag.
22:04:26 <fizzie> (Two-finger single tap is a regular right click.)
22:04:48 <\oren\> ais523: I bet it will go away if you unistall unity
22:04:53 <\oren\> unity is cancer
22:05:20 <ais523> \oren\: I /like/ Unity
22:05:28 <ais523> fizzie: two to one
22:06:02 <ais523> one to two should logically drag and scroll at the same time (which is an operation that's meaningful on a regular mouse), but it doesn't seem to
22:06:30 <ais523> actually, my issue with Unity is that it's broadly well designed from a UI point of view, but terribly implemented
22:06:48 <\oren\> All guis related to a window should stay in that window. they shouldn't be on the top of the screen
22:07:00 <ais523> I mean, it has an option for that
22:07:03 <ais523> but I'm not sure I agree
22:07:24 <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
22:07:42 <wob_jonas> lol
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22:08:07 <wob_jonas> `addquote <ais523> basically, doing the opposite of Gnome 3 at every opportunity is probably the best way to design a UI
22:08:14 <wob_jonas> oh right
22:08:16 <wob_jonas> we don't have the bot
22:08:27 <wob_jonas> but that should be addedquote
22:08:31 <ais523> I have to use Gnome 3 at work
22:08:39 <ais523> it took me a while to figure out how it works – it's fairly unintuitive
22:08:42 <ais523> and I still resent using it
22:08:58 <\oren\> also, there should be a menu containing a simple categorical list of every gui program on the system. you shouldn't have to guess at the name of the program in some sort of privacy-cancer-ridden search box
22:09:17 <ais523> at least Unity figured out fairly quickly that they shouldn't autohide the launcher, and made it there permanently by default
22:09:29 <ais523> \oren\: the search box doesn't access the internet by default nowadays
22:09:35 <ais523> unlike Windows', which does
22:09:45 <\oren\> Well I have windows 7
22:09:53 <\oren\> the last good windows
22:10:06 <wob_jonas> \oren\: oh come on, they say that about every windows version
22:10:14 <ais523> you can get a list of every GUI program on the system fairly quickly
22:10:15 <\oren\> wob_jonas: no.
22:10:25 <wob_jonas> I know windows 10 sucks, but at least say something that's specific to that one
22:10:31 <\oren\> the good windowses are 98, XP, and 7
22:10:43 <ais523> (start menu equivalent / Applications / Installed); it also lets you set filters to narrow it down to categories
22:10:43 <\oren\> all the others sucked
22:10:50 <ais523> \oren\: also you mean 98 SE specifically
22:10:51 <myname> 2000 was awesome
22:11:00 <ais523> but yes, 2000 was genuinely good
22:11:12 <ais523> 3.1 was also good for its time
22:11:14 <shachaf> Oh, you mean Windows, not the year.
22:11:14 <wob_jonas> what? 95 OSR2 was a decent one. no memory protection made sense at its time.
22:11:31 <wob_jonas> and I quite like windows 3.11
22:11:33 <myname> i prefer 2000 oder xp
22:11:46 <ais523> btw, I still have the opinion that Vista is the best version of Windows
22:11:50 <myname> over
22:11:58 <myname> wat
22:12:10 <\oren\> vista is a bug ridden turd
22:12:23 <\oren\> I've USED it
22:12:26 <myname> vista was like the public alpha of 7
22:12:53 <wob_jonas> ais: what? even over xp and 7?
22:12:53 <ais523> vista is not buggy in of itself, it's just very good at exposing bugs in everything else
22:13:06 <ais523> Microsoft had to back down from this policy because everyone blamed the OS
22:13:19 <ais523> with the result that 7 after it (and XP before it) are both much more tolerant of buggy program
22:13:22 <ais523> *programs
22:13:30 <wob_jonas> yeah, they have quite a lot of really crazy workarounds for old programs
22:13:40 <ais523> and so Microsoft lost pretty much their only chance to try to get the quality of programs on their platform up
22:13:41 <wob_jonas> some of them very unintuitive
22:13:42 <\oren\> ais523: linus torvalds said it best: "WE DO NOT BREAK USERSPACE!"
22:14:00 <ais523> \oren\: most of the crashes are a result of breaking kernelspace
22:14:11 <wob_jonas> like, redirecting the system32 directory unless the program claims he knows what system32 means
22:14:12 <ais523> the issue is that Microsoft mostly doesn't write drivers themselves
22:14:20 <ais523> but rather leaves it up to the hardware manufacture
22:14:46 <ais523> most of them suck at writing drivers, and many are selfish rather than playing nice with the platform
22:14:57 <\oren\> the point is that whatever was changed most recently must be blamed
22:14:58 <wob_jonas> yeah
22:15:07 <ais523> incidentally, this is why hardware more than a few months old is more likely to "just work" on Linux than Windows
22:15:58 <\oren\> anyway, things worked better on windows 7 and windows 7 gets that credit
22:16:08 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, and if I buy my next computer, I'll try to buy a motherboard that's at least one year old if possible, so that within a year it will start to just work, when hardware people reverse engineer it to write drivers for everything, like power management and network card and disk controller and stuff
22:16:13 <wob_jonas> same for cpu
22:16:30 <wob_jonas> I think the case and hard disk can be new models, those don't matter much
22:16:50 <wob_jonas> the addition hard disks that is, I will also keep using the ones I have now
22:17:00 <wob_jonas> they're not as old as this motherboard and cpu and memory
22:18:57 <\oren\> anyway the point i was making about UI is that information hiding in a UI is bad
22:19:28 <\oren\> a large menu with every program in it is better than a pretty one where it's hard to find things
22:21:22 <\oren\> the menu for unity at least should have a section where you can get a scrollable list of all programs
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22:35:05 <\oren\> windows 8 made the same exact mistake in their idiotic "start screen" of course
22:41:21 <ais523> \oren\: Unity's menu /has/ a scrollable list of all programs
22:41:43 <ais523> open the menu, click on the applications icon at the bottom (which looks sort-of like an A), then click on "installed"
22:41:57 <\oren\> why is it three clicks away
22:42:28 <ais523> because it's rarely used
22:42:51 <\oren\> and why isn't it labeled simply "all programs" like on windows 7
22:44:52 <\oren\> I never discovered it until I had given up and switched to XFCE
22:46:06 <ais523> well, I think it's fairly obvious that you'd click on the "applications" icon in order to get a list of applications
22:46:28 <ais523> and the third click is very obvious, given that it shows your most recently used applications and gives an option to see all of them
22:46:38 <\oren\> "installed"?
22:47:28 <ais523> the full text is: "Installed See 166 more results >"
22:47:33 <ais523> at the start of a short list of programs
22:47:42 <ais523> you click on that to get the full list
22:47:48 <\oren\> also, this is since when. I haven't used Ubuntu since version 11.04
22:48:27 <\oren\> well technically, I have, but not regularly
22:48:57 <shachaf> \oren\: how's your build system project doing today?
22:49:24 <\oren\> shachaf: I'm not in charge of the build system
22:49:39 <shachaf> the project to become in charge of fixing it
22:50:25 <shachaf> just learn from facebook, yo
22:50:27 <shachaf> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CE0xLl-UUAAd7nz.jpg
22:51:03 <\oren\> 11.04 is when they ruined the UI, so after wrestling with it for months learning to customize it into something resembling usabilty, I gave up and apt-get install xubuntu-desktop
22:51:14 <ais523> the first version of Unity was terrible, IIRC
22:51:18 <ais523> but it got better fairly quickly
22:51:34 <shachaf> Is it good now?
22:51:48 <shachaf> When I tried it about six months ago it still seemed pretty scow.
22:52:02 <\oren\> it still has the menus outside their proper windows and no normal applications menu
22:52:21 <\oren\> also, a weird dock instead of a taskbar
22:53:47 <oerjan> . o O ( that sounds a bit like old macOS. wait, i have no idea what OSX does... )
22:54:05 <shachaf> It does the same.
22:54:12 <\oren\> oerjan: OSX is just as shit an interface as old macs
22:54:31 <oerjan> OKAY
22:54:34 <shachaf> literally anything except what \oren\ is used to is utter scow
22:54:43 <ais523> shachaf: it's well-designed but badly-implemented
22:55:00 <shachaf> I'm using Cinnamon with Ubuntu now.
22:55:04 <shachaf> It's not ideal but it works.
22:55:59 <\oren\> shachaf: at first glance at the screenshot on wikipedia, cinnamon looks great
22:56:23 <oerjan> . o O ( today we'll show how to make a delicious vegan dish with cinnamon and ubuntu )
22:56:37 <\oren\> a normal desktop, a normal taskbar, a normal menu
22:58:21 <ais523> oerjan: there's actually a type of cola called ubuntu
22:58:27 <ais523> I don't know offhand whether it's vegan or not
22:58:42 <\oren\> and application menus are in the respective window for that application. WONDERFUL
22:58:44 <oerjan> hm, right
22:58:48 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out what sort of dish would contain cinnamon and cola, I'm guessing it's a dessert though
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22:59:28 <shachaf> Doesn't Coca-Cola contain cinnamon?
22:59:30 <shachaf> Or did?
22:59:48 <oerjan> *cocaine hth
23:06:43 <FireFly> cocaine as spice… and here I thought spice was cannabis
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23:09:48 <\oren\> OH! so cinnamon is what Linux Mint uses!
23:10:11 <\oren\> that explains Mint's rise to the top of the Distrowatch
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23:31:02 <boily> @massages-loud
23:31:02 <lambdabot> You don't have any messages
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23:41:53 <DHeadshot> @tell wob_jonas Thanks!
23:41:54 <lambdabot> Consider it noted.
23:45:00 <\oren\> wait, sourceforge isn't a malware ridden hellhole anymore?
23:46:19 <boily> he\\oren\. wut?
23:46:48 <\oren\> Apparently last year they stopped bundling malware with programs
23:47:23 <\oren\> http://www.ghacks.net/2016/02/10/good-news-sourceforge-stops-bundling-adware-with-installers/
23:49:46 <\oren\> Cnet is still a malware ridden hellhole though
23:53:55 <boily> Cnet is the reference hellhole.
23:55:04 <DHeadshot> Speaking of which, is there a decent site that'll let me host the free software I write that isn't open-source? I normally use dropbox but they don't like it...
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23:58:41 <huh> Here's the thing. You said "freeware is free software." Is it in the same family? Yes. No one's arguing that. As someone who is a scientist who studies free software, I am telling you, specifically, in programming, no one calls freeware "free software". They're not the same thing. If you're saying "freeware" you're referring to the taxonomic grouping of Gratisdae, which includes things from...
23:58:42 <huh> ...GPL to shareware to public domain.
23:59:07 <huh> It's okay to just admit you're wrong, you know?
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