←2017-04-05 2017-04-06 2017-04-07→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:00:27 <shachaf> pikhq: Yes, it's a mess.
00:00:56 <pikhq> mosh *seems* to just defer to libc on that subject.
00:01:25 <shachaf> I'm using tmux and mosh and in the end things never work right.
00:01:35 <pikhq> I don't know if tmux does its own mess.
00:01:49 <pikhq> The above should help debug things.
00:02:04 <shachaf> I'm already pretty sure wcwidth is broken.
00:02:10 <quintopia> boily: do you have any fertility rites planned for the worship of the green goddess Eostre?
00:02:19 <shachaf> OK, I'll try it.
00:02:42 <pikhq> Problem is, wcwidth is what some popular programs and libraries like "curses" use for their notion of how many columns a given character takes.
00:03:01 <shachaf> Are you supposed to run thins 2>file?
00:03:03 <pikhq> Yes.
00:03:36 <pikhq> I did mention it was a tiny little hack. I was frankly just tinkering a tiny bit and wanted to talk about what I saw from it.
00:03:56 <pikhq> I'd also recommend against Ctrl-C'ing it, cause I've not made it robust enough to reset the terminal afterwards.
00:04:36 <shachaf> Would you looj at that, 171 broken code points.
00:05:12 <pikhq> tmux here appears to agree with glibc.
00:05:32 <hppavilion[1]> It's a good thing Hitler wasn't a mathematician.
00:05:36 <shachaf> Two are libc 1 tty 0, the rest are libc 0 tty 1
00:05:46 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: Can you quit it with those jokes?
00:05:54 <shachaf> Just put them on a Twitter account and I won't follow it.
00:05:54 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I try ;-;
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00:06:31 <pikhq> So there's a few libc thinks are combining characters, and some the tty thinks are combining characters.
00:06:34 <pikhq> Huh.
00:06:56 <pikhq> As I understand it, Unicode *defines* this, too.
00:07:11 <Jafet> gtk has a is_valid_utf8 function, which forbids U+0000
00:08:28 <Jafet> because “all strings are nul-terminated”
00:08:48 <pikhq> Might be worth investigating to see which codepoints terminals even agree on.
00:15:13 <pikhq> Perhaps write something-or-other whereby programs would be able to test those codepoints in particular, and if they don't work, output U+FFFD instead.
00:15:20 <pikhq> (maybe as a patch to ncurses?)
00:16:55 <Jafet> terminal rendering is already unportable anyway, because of fullwidth characters
00:17:34 <pikhq> ?
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00:20:14 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm running this program in ssh instead of mosh-tmux, and it's very slow.
00:20:39 <shachaf> I started it 10 minutes ago and it's only 10% done.
00:21:01 <pikhq> It will be limited by the speed of the connection with its terminal.
00:21:10 <Jafet> actually it's even worse, there are “ambiguous-width” characters
00:21:23 <shachaf> Yes, I know.
00:21:31 <shachaf> But actually it'll be limited by my patience.
00:21:32 <pikhq> Note that it's sending escapes to the terminal requesting the cursor position and waiting for a response... On each and every codepoint.
00:22:01 <Jafet> and gnome-terminal, for instance, lets the user decide how wide they should be
00:22:07 <pikhq> Jafet: :(
00:22:08 <shachaf> There are many more "not okay" this way, even when I ^Ced it.
00:22:33 <pikhq> I might bother doing some research to figure out which codepoints are actually likely to vary and get it to test only those.
00:22:36 <Jafet> but I'm sure there are also fullwidth characters that are displayed as narrow in some terminals
00:23:15 <pikhq> That sorta bullcrap is *kinda* a problem given that most terminal programs have specific ideas about the terminal state...
00:23:23 <pikhq> And if they disagree, you have a freaking problem.
00:23:50 <Jafet> possibly the only good solution is to wmove() frequently
00:24:06 <Jafet> or to use gtk, if your strings don't contain U+0000
00:27:05 <boily> quintopia: if by fertility rite you mean consuming liberal amounts of eggs, yes ^^
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00:32:28 <boily> Eggs Blackstone are the bee's knees, the spider's shoulders, and the butterfly's thighs.
00:36:03 <quintopia> ...this is a thing i'm unaware of
00:36:31 <quintopia> i know more about the political structure of ancient egypt than i do about eggs blackstone
00:36:54 <boily> http://howtofeedaloon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/eggs-blackstone-1050x700.jpg
00:36:54 <quintopia> (i know the names of like three pharaohs and the science of mummification)
00:37:00 <boily> nice!
00:37:10 <boily> fungot: mummy?
00:37:11 <fungot> boily: something fun ( in fact, scheme48 init files bundled in slib. this would compromise my other criteria.
00:37:28 <boily> Eggs Blackstone are just like Benedict, but with bacon and grilled tomatoes.
00:43:16 <quintopia> oh
00:43:23 <quintopia> way to ruin a great dish
00:43:49 <quintopia> i'm not sure what you mean by "but with bacon" though
00:44:14 <quintopia> eggs benedict has bacon (that which we refer to as Canadian) by default...
00:49:30 <boily> it's more like ham, eh?
00:51:17 <quintopia> are you saying you substitute belly bacon?
00:53:14 <boily> yup ^^
00:57:29 <quintopia> well that doesnt sound terrible
00:57:38 <quintopia> as long as the hollandaise is dialed in
00:57:45 <quintopia> but tomato sounds horrible
00:58:36 <boily> hollandaise is an incontournable.
00:58:42 <boily> tomato is wonderful!
01:01:28 <boily> let's ask our resident vegexpert about tomatoes...
01:01:38 <boily> fungot: are tomatoes good?
01:01:38 <fungot> boily: why would you want to call
01:01:54 <boily> fungot: because it has to be known.
01:01:54 <fungot> boily: so you can show that automatically in the message
01:07:55 <quintopia> fungot: automatically message me your opinion on tomatoes
01:07:56 <fungot> quintopia: manipulating xml as sexps is easier and mroe powerful than php
01:08:06 <quintopia> that didnt help
01:08:12 <quintopia> ^style
01:08:12 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:08:25 <quintopia> ^style speeches
01:08:25 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
01:08:41 <quintopia> fungot: do you have anything to say about tomatoes now?
01:08:42 <fungot> quintopia: " not this way, and really it trimmed him as it would a tree. he had been some time a member who enters that service has to pursue the general happiness. if, therefore, with him, rather a weak constitution, and, adopting very nearly the sentiments of his people. he is writing four fnord volumes about me, i was going to be on the ground of a public direction by the power of trampling on their subjects, though history
01:09:11 <quintopia> exactly fungot. i agree. tomatoes are the worst.
01:09:11 <fungot> quintopia: but, as soon as he had observed with respect to nobility. why? because a representative system, which varied only in local and circumstantial fnord much less, that they may earn, their own bread. now it is dismal enough to be fnord
01:09:47 <quintopia> true, bread is much more representative
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01:10:09 <quintopia> helloony
01:10:11 <moonythedwarf> IT finally happened. someone made a brainfuck interpreter in The Powder Toy (see save 2122891 )
01:10:25 <quintopia> huh?
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01:11:06 <moonythedwarf> http://powdertoy.co.uk/Browse/View.html?ID=2122891
01:11:18 <moonythedwarf> its another computer in The Powder Toy, but this time brainfuck
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01:11:49 <boily> mhelloonythellodwarf.
01:11:56 <moonythedwarf> helloily
01:12:05 <boily> tomatoes are the best. bell peppers are also good.
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01:12:19 <moonythedwarf> Why has noone made a hello command for hackego yet? so i can automate my helloilys
01:13:58 <quintopia> there is no agreed-upon porthello for every situation
01:14:32 <quintopia> like, what's the best porthello for zarutian, for instance?
01:14:52 <Zarutian> ask boily
01:15:35 <quintopia> i just asked everyone
01:15:49 <quintopia> boily surely is allowed to make a suggestion :D
01:15:59 <moonythedwarf> zaruthian
01:16:10 <fizzie> There is a command, it's just very rudimentary.
01:16:12 <fizzie> `hi Zarutian
01:16:12 <HackEgo> Hi Zarutian. Harutian.
01:16:18 <moonythedwarf> lol
01:16:32 <fizzie> That may have been derived from `thanks.
01:16:35 <quintopia> probs
01:16:37 <boily> I usuall Zarutellon Zarutian.
01:16:58 <quintopia> hmm
01:17:22 <boily> hmm?
01:17:26 <quintopia> boily: i trust. write down a set of trustworthy substitution rules to produce optimal porthellos please
01:19:39 <boily> I latch upon the first available h, e, l, o. I check if it sounds right, along with morphological features. if it doesn't, I follow with the next available anchor.
01:19:58 <quintopia> and if none exist?
01:20:00 <boily> if it still doesn't work, I may try “hi” instead of “hello”.
01:20:28 <boily> if nothing works, chop off the first letter and “hi”. so far, only kmc reached this fallback.
01:20:36 <quintopia> "morphological features" is so nebulous. can you explain that in EBNF?
01:20:42 <boily> eeeeeh...
01:20:59 <boily> for example, \oren\ has he\\oren\ because backslashes.
01:21:32 <boily> b_jonas has b_jellonas and wob_jellonas, because jell-o.
01:22:06 <boily> and rdococ has rdochelloc because it sounds better.
01:22:40 <boily> (could've been rdellococ, but it isn't as good IMPO)
01:24:12 <quintopia> okay it's clear now
01:24:13 <boily> there may also be customary decorations and declensions, re hellørjan, helloochaf and Tanelle.
01:24:26 <boily> and you're QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAA.
01:24:31 <quintopia> this is a task only manageable by high quality AI
01:24:39 <quintopia> machine learning stuff
01:24:40 <boily> or a sane person!
01:24:44 <quintopia> something that knows english
01:25:15 <quintopia> boily: i don't know where we'd find a sane person. but we might be able to write one from not-scratch
01:26:36 * boily fell into the trap headfirst
01:26:52 <boily> fungot: tell me I'm sane.
01:26:52 <fungot> boily: but i will struggle with my bursting heart, to portray that heroic spirit, which has sometimes seemed to foreign states to invite and provoke their aggressions, peace has been unbroken, their work has been excellent, and honourable man, with a single solitary exception, every one of which has much to fear from his loss than now they have, in certain indian transactions, fnord the worst of the caesars, gradually effacing
01:28:31 <kmc> hoily!
01:30:32 <boily> himc!
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02:48:37 <tsw_ett> I've been playing Thumper!
02:48:47 <tsw_ett> My left hand is pretty sore from all that thumping.
02:49:06 <tsw_ett> I've probably been thumping too hard, is all. I need to thump more gently.
02:49:22 <tsw_ett> I decided to try thumping with my other hand, and it went surprisingly well.
02:49:38 <tsw_ett> Maybe I'm actually a right-handed thumper and I've been thumping with the wrong hand this whole time.
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03:25:58 <shachaf> Is there a programming language that uses something like a call queue instead of a call stack?
03:28:25 <oerjan> . o O ( Fueue? )
03:33:31 <shachaf> I was thinking about depth-first and breadth-first search. Depth-first search is more natural to implement, but can you make an environment where breadth-first search is more natural?
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09:59:08 <fizzie> shachaf: There's a language literally called "Call Queue".
09:59:12 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Call_Queue
10:00:00 <fizzie> "Call Queue was inspired by the similarities between a queue-based algorithm implementing breadth-first search in a tree, and a stack-based algorithm emulating recursion."
10:01:48 <shachaf> fizzie: sgtm
10:02:03 <shachaf> Doesn't look very fleshed out.
10:02:34 <fizzie> Yes, it's a little unfinished.
10:03:25 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether the traditional function call syntax it uses is misleading or what it should be like.
10:04:04 <shachaf> Maybe you can make something with coroutines.
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11:28:31 <Jafet> you should generalise this to best-first search, then
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11:36:27 <Jafet> how about a message-passing computational model based on restaurants?
11:36:52 <Jafet> everyone sends messages at different volumes; if the total volume is too loud, the messages become garbled
11:57:22 <b_jonas> hello fungot
11:57:23 <fungot> b_jonas: the china trade. no voice, i guess, then, as it has been in literature. compare the members for the great remains of classical antiquity, which will be applied as long as the moral constitution of men's minds shall continue to infest the platform on these conditions--that there is nobody in the world that put its whole trust in god.
12:20:29 <boily> fungot: infesting platforms is generally frowned upon.
12:20:29 <fungot> boily: on monday, the twenty-seventh of february, 1832.) for my pillow, and a re-charter was granted by congress. that re-charter was laid before general jackson. it was inevitable that you would be an exception to it, but i remember one detail. all my life.
12:20:57 <boily> fungot: at least you got your dates right.
12:20:57 <fungot> boily: paraphrase of a passage in the review of jenyn's inquiry into the causes of wealthy zemindars, after residing at the courts of europe, and in great manufacturing towns, marriages are less prolific than in the substance, but regulating the mode and the principles on which they pronounce with so much profusion and so little discrimination, that they may be assured, that by keeping a vigilant eye on the fnord gentleman for
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17:49:00 <\oren\> there's no dot in Dr Pepper
17:54:15 <\oren\> meaning that it was the same price in the days of ocean liners as when the
17:54:19 <\oren\> Did you know, that Coca-Cola was 5 cents a bottle from 1886 to 1959?
17:54:31 <\oren\> ok wtf stupid copypaste
18:00:44 <int-e> https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2017-April/126716.html ... "more transparent", really...
18:01:37 <\oren\> Apparently the US senate are going nuclear! WE'RE DOOMED
18:01:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: what?
18:02:07 <\oren\> they are deploying the "nuclear option" to defeat a democratic filibuster
18:02:25 <\oren\> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/04/06/senate-republicans-tee-up-nuclear-showdown-on-gorsuch.html
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19:45:16 <pikhq> Which means that, essentially, the norms of the body are utterly dead.
19:46:18 <shachaf> p. scow
19:46:23 <int-e> unprecendented, hear, hear.
19:46:27 <int-e> -n
19:46:53 <pikhq> So, next time we've got a Democratic Pres and Senate, I'm hoping the GOP gets faced with how dumb that was.
19:47:11 <pikhq> Note for starters there's no cap on the number of sitting justices.
19:47:41 <shachaf> Didn't a Democratic senate already do a similar thing a few years ago?
19:47:53 <\oren\> “This is an extreme nominee from the far right who doesn’t believe in the fundamental vision of ‘We the People.“’
19:48:03 <pikhq> By a "few" you mean "nearly a century ago".
19:48:16 <\oren\> Is Grosuch really so bad?
19:48:28 <shachaf> I mean in 2013.
19:48:45 <int-e> I'm just trying to imagine the outcry if the Democrats had changed rules like this... or perhaps they did on less visible matters? I don't know.
19:48:50 <shachaf> Not for a Supreme Court nomination, though.
19:48:54 <pikhq> Oh.
19:49:02 <pikhq> shachaf: In 2013, they eliminated the nuclear option on other nominees.
19:49:06 <pikhq> Erm, the filibuster.
19:49:22 <pikhq> After the GOP doubled the number of nominee filibusters that have ever happened.
19:49:53 <pikhq> There have been about 160 nominees filibusters, of those, 80 were Obama's.
19:50:53 <pikhq> And we're talking some very uncontroversial nominees, too.
19:51:11 <\oren\> but is gorsuch really so bad, or are they just filibustering him because AAAA TRUMP AAAA
19:51:13 <pikhq> But the GOP was determined to make his Presidency the least successful one ever.
19:51:28 <pikhq> \oren\: The main justification is actually that Garland never got heard. Ever.
19:51:39 <pikhq> \oren\: But there are some really concerning things in his record as well...
19:51:51 <\oren\> so it has little to do with gorsuch himself?
19:52:50 <pikhq> Well, it's made *worse* by Gorsuch being a fairly right-wing nominee.
19:53:18 <pikhq> But, yes, the main thing turning it from "vote against" to "filibuster like your life depended on it" is Garland.
19:54:12 <pikhq> Opinion-wise, he's very nearly a Scalia clone.
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19:57:01 <\oren\> "On November 21, 2013, the Senate used the so-called "nuclear option", voting 52–48—with all Republicans and three Democrats voting against—to eliminate the use of the filibuster on executive branch nominees and judicial nominees, except to the Supreme Court."
19:57:33 <\oren\> So that's why the dems couldn't filibuster any of trump's other people
19:57:39 <pikhq> Yep.
19:58:24 <pikhq> Because after seeing the GOP filibuster nominee after nominee, they finally got rid of it, and the GOP for their part decided "fuck your opinions, we vote as a block".
19:58:36 <\oren\> so, when is the second american civil war scheduled?
19:58:55 <pikhq> About 1 hour after Trump's impeachment by a Democratic Congress.
19:59:03 <\oren\> cool
20:03:24 <fizzie> I think I heard them doing something slightly out of the ordinary re Lords and Brexit here as well.
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20:16:46 <hppavilion[1]> I have just ruler-and-compass constructed a square. I feel like it shouldn't be this complicated
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20:25:23 * hppavilion[1] . o O ( I feel like 270 degree angles should be square
20:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> )
20:31:01 <\oren\> wait, wy would it be hard to construct a square
20:31:09 <moonythedwarf> Technically they are the inverse of a 90 degree angle, but that suggusts we dont need 360 degrees to describe things, we only need 180..... *thinking*
20:31:57 <\oren\> first construct two perpendicular lines, then draw a circle around the intersection, then connect the places where the lines intersect the circle
20:35:33 <moonythedwarf> matching keyword /* linked */ equiv { } /* Voids its contents, 'ignored' by the parser */
20:35:37 <moonythedwarf> i have metalanguage ideas in mind
20:43:06 <moonythedwarf> ruled keyword // equiv { } linked rule { arg: *\n } // Also voids its contents, but has a regex match to boot.
20:43:32 <moonythedwarf> Figuring out how various ticks will work
20:43:36 <moonythedwarf> *tricks
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21:00:46 <shachaf> Ewige Muminkraft
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21:02:21 <hppavilion[1]> IMO, when translating a fictional or real brand name (or in general, any newly-invented word not derived from pure throwing-syllables-on-paper), the word should be translated by finding its source, translating those, then recombining
21:02:35 <shachaf> Or Ewige Snufkinkraft?
21:03:26 <hppavilion[1]> So Soylent Green is Sojalinse Grün- since "Soylent" is 'soya' (as in 'soy')+'lentil', I translated 'soy' and 'lentil' into German, mushed them together, and translated 'green' normally
21:03:50 <hppavilion[1]> (Of course, if it's a real company which has an official international variant, use that instead)
21:04:04 <hppavilion[1]> (Following this rule, Apple, inc. becomes Apfel, Inc.
21:04:07 <hppavilion[1]> )
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21:11:51 <pikhq> IMO, this depends on whether the brand name has much relevance to the story, or whether it's an opaque string.
21:12:12 <pikhq> Like, would the name itself confer meaning to the original audience.
21:12:36 <shachaf> What if the name involves an intricate and untranslateable pun?
21:12:44 <pikhq> I don't know.
21:13:17 <pikhq> But I will say e.g. Weyland-Yutani shouldn't have anything done to it, aside from maybe swapping the Romanization scheme used for the latter half.
21:14:21 <pikhq> (of course, there the meaning of the name is all to do with the nationality of the two surnames, so any sort of translation would change the meaning while leaving it alone, would not.)
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21:22:09 <\oren\> pikhq: ウェランド湯谷株式会社
21:22:32 <pikhq> That works.
21:22:57 <pikhq> That's also just the exact same name in Japanese, so hey. :)
21:26:03 <\oren\> There's also the Shinra Electric Power Company
21:28:07 <\oren\> where shinra wasn't translated into "god-cloth" or anything
21:28:24 <pikhq> That's a bit hard to translate.
21:29:07 <pikhq> I guess you could do "Theopani"?
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21:50:01 <\oren\> "The Daily Beast reported Thursday that Bannon had called Kushner a "cuck" behind his back."
21:54:44 <hppavilion[1]> Hm.
21:57:47 <hppavilion[1]> There are mnemonics for remembering the planets- "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nachos" (archaic: "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nasty Pizza") or "Mary's Virgin Explanation Made Joseph Suspect Upstairs Neighbor) (xkcd)
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21:58:00 <hppavilion[1]> s/\) \(/" \(/
21:58:29 <hppavilion[1]> But I want one for remembering the dwarf AND normal planets
21:59:06 <Zarutian> add "Piano Charokee" to the xkcd one?
21:59:14 <Zarutian> s/add/append/
22:24:18 <\oren\> you also need Ceres
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22:27:18 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yeah
22:27:28 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And Haumea and Makemake and Eris
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22:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> I wrote a bad one for fun: My Vampire Emu Might Consume Judgmentally-Stirred Udon Noodles with Pre-Crumbled Hot Macaroons, Eventually
22:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm particularly proud of using "Pre-Crumbled" for "Pluto and Ceres", since it binds them together; the only issue is that the 'C' should be disposable rather than the 'P')
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22:47:13 <\oren\> that's pluto and charon
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23:20:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh, yeah, Pluto and Charon.
23:21:01 * hppavilion[1] commits astronomy seppuku
23:21:23 <\oren\> because apparently, -D options in gcc invokation doesn't overpower #define
23:21:27 <\oren\> I have to add an #ifndef around the #define in question
23:21:27 <hppavilion[1]> (AKA reading his Horoscope)
23:21:42 <\oren\> well then, what I've been doing for the last few days is apparently useless
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23:30:41 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Were you reading your horoscope?
23:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> [and using it to determine which homeopathic remedy to pick?]
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23:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> My mother just encountered the word "Probabilistic" for the first time, apparently
23:52:51 <hppavilion[1]> She's reading a medical report (involved in some legal case) in silence and just said "Pro-buh-bull-ist-ic? Is that even a word?"
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