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01:25:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Crorem * New user account
01:30:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51643&oldid=51620 * Crorem * (+123)
01:30:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SMA]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=51644 * Crorem * (+211) Created page with "Hi, I noticed that the link to the interpreter for [[BiTrax]] is dead. Is there any possibility that you could re-host it? Thanks! --~~~~"
01:33:21 <fizzie> That's a little optimistic.
01:35:50 <oerjan> well, it's not _much_ more than a year since User:SMA edited last.
01:36:10 * oerjan read May as March somehow.
01:38:40 <oerjan> that was an annoying hosting site. and robots.txt violated, so no chance of wayback.
01:39:28 <fizzie> "This file is no longer available because of a claim by system."
01:42:04 <fizzie> There was a rather odd search hit where the title of the page was "A source code is a bitmap, where each pixel defines a statement:" but then the contents included "Bitrix24 in the App Store" and a Britax baby stroller.
01:42:15 <fizzie> It looks like a website generated from an odd mishmash of things.
01:42:50 <fizzie> Things of somewhat similar lexicographic appearance.
01:45:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i can construct a square in 12 steps, the three first being marking two arbitrary points and the line between them; are you doing it more complicated than that?
01:45:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I... don't remember. I've deleted the construction because I didn't need it
01:46:10 <hppavilion[1]> It involved finding a bunch of tangent lines on a circle
01:46:27 <oerjan> well you don't need that to construct a square.
01:46:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yeah, but that was the only way I could think of
01:48:27 <hppavilion[1]> A:point, B:point, l:line A B, f:circle A B, g:circle B A, C:intersect l g, and so on or something
01:50:15 <oerjan> the first 5 steps are the same as mine.
01:50:40 <fizzie> 2 (points) + 1 (line) + 4 (for a perpendicular from first point) + 4 (for a perpendicular from the other point) + 1 (the one missing line) = 12 is what I got.
01:50:42 <oerjan> oh i guess you count finding intersections, i didn't do that.
01:51:05 <fizzie> Is this about that one game or just in general?
01:51:38 <oerjan> i don't know what hppavilion[1] is doing.
01:52:33 <fizzie> There was that game about constructing things.
01:52:51 <fizzie> https://www.euclidea.xyz/
01:52:58 <fizzie> I think it was probably that.
01:53:30 <oerjan> not euclidthegame.com?
01:54:01 <fizzie> Yeah, in retrospect that looks more familiar.
01:54:01 <oerjan> which i just found again while trying to seach for an online geometry visualizer (and failing)
01:54:34 <fizzie> I guess euclidea.xyz could be someone's "let's cash in on the fad" thing.
01:54:46 <fizzie> Looks a little more polished maybe.
01:56:20 <fizzie> Like, you get pithy quotes at the end of a task and so on.
01:56:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ok after what you said, D:intersect l f, h:circle C B, i:circle B C, E,F:intersect h i, m:line E F and that's your first perpendicular.
01:58:23 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Sounds about right, but I've yet to formally prove the correctness of the ad-hoc language :P
01:58:33 <hppavilion[1]> (skimming it suggests you're doing the same thing I did)
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02:13:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: your translation talk in the logs made me suddenly realize that the translation of Einstein into a classical greek borrowing is Monolith
02:15:06 <hppavilion[1]> (Or Mein Gotten? Or maybe Mein Götter since polytheism?)
02:15:30 <oerjan> i don't think -en is a suffix used there
02:18:06 <oerjan> wiktionary lists no such word form, even for the archaic 16th-18th century forms.
02:18:50 <oerjan> it would be Meine Götter in the plural.
02:27:02 <oerjan> . o O ( newton <- new-town -> nea-polis -> naples )
02:29:10 <oerjan> darwin seems to have disputed etymology
02:31:25 <oerjan> although one of them could give Philophilos
02:31:42 <oerjan> (philos meaning both dear and friend in greek)
02:34:15 <oerjan> the other meaning could give Drys
02:35:40 <oerjan> which if so looks like it might be cognate
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02:37:11 <HackEgo> crorem: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:37:35 <oerjan> Crorem: i'm afraid User:SMA hasn't been seen in nearly a year
02:39:08 <oerjan> i don't remember if they ever came here on irc
02:40:51 <Crorem> Would you know anywhere where the BiTrax interpreter might be archived?
02:41:14 <oerjan> i checked wayback, but of course the site has a robots.txt :(
02:41:37 <oerjan> and fizzie googled some, i think
02:42:23 <oerjan> but he didn't seem to find anything relevant
02:43:48 <Crorem> Well, thanks for trying
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02:54:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, whoops, I meant to just say say "Mein Götter", but my syntax messed up when I changed plans
02:54:44 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: But what about the unfortunate town of Dildo?
02:55:08 <shachaf> get your mind out of the götter
03:01:58 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> There are mnemonics for remembering the planets- "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nachos" (archaic: "My Very Excellent Mother Just Gave Us Nasty Pizza") or "Mary's Virgin Explanation Made Joseph Suspect Upstairs Neighbor) (xkcd) <-- i think you mean "Served" or something hth
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03:02:40 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO HE ESCAPED
03:13:46 <\oren\> the USA has hit a Syrian Air base in homs with 50 cruise missiles
03:13:50 <\oren\> esitmated to destroy at least a quarter of the Syrian Air Force
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04:23:56 <HackEgo> i,i is short for "I have wasps in my underwear, and I want to distract myself by saying".
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05:12:06 <\oren\> AAAAAA Idiots on CNN keep saying it's an "air strike"
05:12:08 <\oren\> those aren't the same unless you're Japanese
05:12:13 <\oren\> It's not it's a CRUISE MISSILE strike
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05:51:32 <Jafet> they're clearly ground strikes, anyway
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06:57:50 <shachaf> newsham: There's such a thing as a stovetop pizza oven?!
07:02:24 <newsham> i havent heard of a stovetop pizza oven
07:04:24 <shachaf> But you're a pizza expert.
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07:35:20 <ais523> voxelperfect.net appears to have been taken over by domain parkers
07:35:28 <ais523> does anyone have a backup of the Esoteric Files Archive?
07:36:30 <hppavilion[1]> Is there an equivalent of the Vesica Piscis for ellipses?
07:38:33 <ais523> actually this may be worth putting in the topic, a lot of esolang content is hosted there
07:38:57 -!- ais523 has set topic: voxelperfect.net is parked; anyone have a backup of the Esoteric Files Archive? | News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
07:49:28 <ais523> it crosses my mind that graue may still be contactable and probably still has a copy, but it may be best to see if an actual regular has a copy, first
07:50:29 <shachaf> ais523: https://github.com/graue/esofiles hth
07:50:29 <int-e> hmm the (linode) server that went with it seems to be gone as well.
07:50:52 <ais523> we should probably update links, in that case
07:51:07 <ais523> also, get a few clones of the repo going just in case Github gets parked too ;-)
07:51:33 -!- ais523 has set topic: News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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07:59:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: voxelperfect.net is parked; use github.com/graue/esofiles as a mirror | News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
07:59:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: voxelperfect.net is parked; use github.com/graue/esofiles | News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
08:08:19 <Jafet> the topic is mostly write-only
08:08:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:BackFlip]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=51645&oldid=49072 * Ais523 * (+472) /* How to make infinite memory */ another, belated, idea
08:08:49 <Jafet> or write-mostly, or is it mostly right?
08:09:04 <shachaf> It seems to be left-mostly.
08:10:39 <Jafet> well, only the rightmost parts are mostly left
08:11:37 <shachaf> The right part alone is mostly left alone.
08:22:11 <ais523> perhaps we should try randomly reordering it and seeing if that changes the sort of edits we normally get?
08:22:34 <shachaf> Well, the logs and esolangs.org links are important.
08:22:47 <shachaf> Most of the rest is usually superfluous.
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08:32:43 <ais523> is wisdom.pdf meant to be a permanent feature? or not?
08:33:13 <shachaf> I don't like it. I don't think my wisdom should be recorded for eternity.
08:33:20 <shachaf> But others like i so who knows.
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08:44:10 <ais523> I don't really care for it being there permanently, although advertising it when it was made made sense
08:46:27 <shachaf> `le/rn esoteric files archive/The Esoteric Files Archive is now available at https://github.com/graue/esofiles
08:46:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'esoteric files archive/the esoteric files archive is now available at https:': github.com/graue/esofiles
08:47:14 -!- shachaf has set topic: http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | For bots, use #esoteric-blah.
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10:20:13 -!- int-e has set topic: News: New pyramid found in Egypt | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf | For extensive phở testing, use #esoteric-blah.
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11:39:43 <boily> yes, but what is wisdom?
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11:42:54 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and, uh, that other one? It started with, like, an ø?
11:43:08 <FireFly> boily: always factually accurate (exceptions may apply)
11:43:28 <boily> FirelloFly. I trust the Wisdom.
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13:13:16 <b_jonas> heh heh. heard on ##workingset: "make is not a programming language in the sense that people write applications or OSes in it." Sounds like make is an esolang then.
13:13:25 <b_jonas> (In the sense that openttd signals are.)
13:39:52 <fizzie> Also sounds like a challenge.
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16:37:40 <rdococ> and yes, it's called a font size menu
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16:37:53 <rdococ> works for both fat and long links
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18:11:40 <\oren\> I wonder if anyone has the phone number 5138008
18:13:16 <\oren\> if you have 5318008 on a calculator and you turn it upside down
18:23:20 <\oren\> hmm, make is turing complete when you inlcude its ability to run other programs, but what if make is executed in an environment with an innefectual version of sh?
18:24:52 <b_jonas> \oren\: gnu make or some other version of make?
18:25:17 <\oren\> gnu make would probably be the most likely to be turing complete...
18:26:37 <b_jonas> I think gnu make is probably turing complete. It has all sorts of crazy built-in functions, including text-manip stuff and an eval function. You can define variables.
18:27:33 <erkin> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-make-2466.html
18:28:34 <b_jonas> You can access variables indirectly by name too.
18:37:41 <moony> \oren\, pls. y u do joke like dat
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19:08:30 <rdococ> How about a program that searches for all possible combinations of numbers that yields letters, and returns the ones that are in dictionaries?
19:11:07 <shachaf> I already wrote such a program to look for a Google Voice number.
19:12:35 <FireFly> rdococ: wouldn't that just be grep(1)?
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20:34:45 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI9hqvync5Y
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20:44:40 <fizzie> Speaking for searching a dictionary.
20:44:42 <fizzie> `` grep -E '^a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?$' share/dict-words | perl -pe 'print length($_), " ";' | sort -nr | head -n 20 | cut -d ' ' -f 2
20:44:43 <HackEgo> loquacity \ imprudent \ certainty \ mortuary \ invaders \ impudent \ hostelry \ horsefly \ hindmost \ foremost \ envelops \ eloquent \ develops \ degrades \ deforest \ definers \ corsairs \ citadels \ chowders \ chivalry
20:45:10 <fizzie> That's the regex for nethack inventory letter words.
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20:47:01 <shachaf> fizzie: What about uppercase?
20:47:59 <fizzie> If you mean uppercase in input, in my 'words' those are boringly names. If you mean uppercasing the first half in the output, that's left as an exercise.
20:48:20 <shachaf> Oh, wait, you did include the alphabet twice.
20:48:29 <fizzie> Or is it the second half. I forget. Anyway.
20:50:01 <HackEgo> awk '{print length"\t"$0}' | sort -n | cut -f2-
20:50:18 <HackEgo> 9746:2016-11-20 <shachäf> mkx bin/sort-by-lengths//awk \'{print length"\\t"$0}\' | sort -n | cut -f2-
20:50:21 <shachaf> fizzie: I thought it was a pretty wise move to put it there.
20:51:55 <shachaf> `` abc='a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?'; grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-length | tac | head -n20
20:51:56 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: sort-by-length: command not found
20:51:59 <shachaf> `` abc='a?b?c?d?e?f?g?h?i?j?k?l?m?n?o?p?q?r?s?t?u?v?w?x?y?z?'; grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-lengths | tac | head -n20
20:52:00 <HackEgo> loquacity \ imprudent \ certainty \ mortuary \ invaders \ impudent \ hostelry \ horsefly \ hindmost \ foremost \ envelops \ eloquent \ develops \ degrades \ deforest \ definers \ corsairs \ citadels \ chowders \ chivalry
20:53:13 <shachaf> `` abc=$(echo abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz | sed 's/./&?/g'); grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-lengths | tac | head -n20
20:53:14 <HackEgo> loquacity \ imprudent \ certainty \ mortuary \ invaders \ impudent \ hostelry \ horsefly \ hindmost \ foremost \ envelops \ eloquent \ develops \ degrades \ deforest \ definers \ corsairs \ citadels \ chowders \ chivalry
20:53:31 <shachaf> `` abc=$(echo abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz | sed 's/./&?/g'); grep -E "^$abc$abc$" share/dict-words | sort-by-lengths | tac | head -n30 | xargs
20:53:32 <HackEgo> loquacity imprudent certainty mortuary invaders impudent hostelry horsefly hindmost foremost envelops eloquent develops degrades deforest definers corsairs citadels chowders chivalry belabors airships adorably adjacent adequacy acquaint acerbity abstains thirsty tailors
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20:55:32 <shachaf> It's amazing that sort by length isn't a thing you can easily do, isn't it?
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21:23:50 <zzo38> I had the idea "HTTP Directory Listing", which has the format of a list of key:value pairs with blank lines between records, and with the MIME type "application/directory-listing" perhaps. That is the main problem with HTTP, so the implementation of this idea would fix that problem.
21:23:58 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 3d 20h 56m 51s ago: Do you like this?
21:23:58 <lambdabot> shachaf said 3d 17h 1m 16s ago: By "this" I meant System F. Hope that helps.
21:26:17 <int-e> `` < /usr/share/dict/words awk '{print length($1)"\t"$1}' | sort -rn | cut -f2- | head -n10 | xargs
21:26:18 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
21:26:28 <int-e> `` < share/dict-words awk '{print length($1)"\t"$1}' | sort -rn | cut -f2- | head -n10 | xargs
21:26:29 <HackEgo> xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option
21:29:07 <int-e> `` < share/dict-words awk '{print length($1)"\t"$1}' | sort -rn | cut -f2- | head -n10 | tr \\n \
21:29:08 <HackEgo> electroencephalograph's electroencephalographs electroencephalogram's counterrevolutionary's counterrevolutionaries Andrianampoinimerina's electroencephalograph electroencephalograms counterintelligence's uncharacteristically
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21:30:35 <int-e> hah. I didn't look at the code above... funny it should be the same... minus one unintended bug.
21:31:39 <int-e> (namely, using $1 instead of $0)
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21:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> Particle Physics is all about seeing small numbers as huge; math is all about seeing infinitely large numbers as quaint.
21:42:00 <zzo38> QuickBASIC does not allow a RETURN command inside of a SUB/FUNCTION to specify the label to return to.
21:42:22 <zzo38> I think it ought to be allowed (only if returning to another label in the same subroutine though)
21:52:17 <rdococ> I had the idea of implementing GOTOs by allowing the instruction pointer to be read and written like a variable
22:09:54 <\oren\> rdococ: that doesn't tend to work well unless you have labels as constant variables
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22:25:41 <rdococ> that was the approach I was taking
22:27:13 <Jafet> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | sort-by-length
22:27:13 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/`: line 4: sort-by-length: command not found
22:27:19 <Jafet> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | sort-by-lengths
22:27:41 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
22:29:25 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:29:33 -!- `^_^v has joined.
22:29:35 <Jafet> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | awk 'print length;'
22:29:36 <HackEgo> awk: line 1: syntax error at or near print
22:29:41 <Jafet> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | awk '{print length;}'
22:29:57 <Jafet> it's amazing that sort by length isn't a thing you can easily do
22:34:07 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -ne 'print length $_;'
22:34:25 -!- `^_^v has quit (Client Quit).
22:34:33 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -ne 'chomp;print length $_;'
22:35:17 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -ne 'use utf8;chomp;print length $_;'
22:36:04 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -Cne 'chomp;print length $_;'
22:36:05 <HackEgo> Unknown Unicode option letter 'n'.
22:36:12 <\oren\> `` (echo 缩短; echo long) | perl -C -ne 'chomp;print length $_;'
22:38:27 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:39:00 <\oren\> does awk have a unicode option
22:39:04 <Jafet> rdococ: ARM32 allows accessing the IP as r15; writing to it results in jumps
22:41:39 <\oren\> what if you increment it?
22:42:08 <shachaf> Jafet: To sort by length accurately you need to know what font you're using.
22:42:43 <\oren\> shachaf: or demand the user use a CJKwidth-correct font
22:43:02 <shachaf> Anyway sort-by-length operates on bytes, not characters.
22:43:50 <Jafet> unfortunately, people probably use different fonts
22:43:56 <Jafet> (and different terminals)
22:44:19 <shachaf> Terminals are unique up to isomorphism.
22:45:04 <Jafet> so are initials, apparently
22:45:29 <Jafet> I suppose that's why there is only one xinit and one xterm
22:45:56 <\oren\> cjkwidth-correct fonts at least guarantee that a cjk character is twice the width of a latin character. the standards are iffy on emoji, brahmic and arabic thoough
22:46:01 <int-e> looking at my screen there are many xterms
22:46:13 <shachaf> But they're all xisomorphic.
22:47:31 <shachaf> You should take inspiration from int-e.
22:47:39 <rdococ> int-e, inspiration please
22:47:45 <int-e> Waaaaaaah, I needed that.
22:48:11 <shachaf> I meant the thing where int-e talked about the kinds of things you say in this channel.
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22:57:19 <int-e> Has anyone ever written a book on how to be uncreative, I wonder.
22:57:37 <shachaf> contrapumpkin: yontrapumpkin
22:59:58 <\oren\> int-e: perhaps "Design Patterns"?
23:00:38 <int-e> \oren\: oh that's better than the direction I was heading (something about accounting)
23:02:36 <Jafet> by the gang of forced analogies
23:03:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
23:03:19 <rdococ> Sorry for being uncreative. it's just that my creativity is sapped every day by something called school.
23:03:34 <rdococ> I try my best to fight it, but I guess I'm just meant to be an Average Joe.
23:04:10 <\oren\> rdococ: what kind of school?
23:04:50 <rdococ> A school purported to be for "special" kids, despite the fact that they're no different.
23:10:47 <Zarutian> how is it sapping your creativity?
23:11:22 * Zarutian is genuinly curious to know what can be done better with education.
23:13:02 <\oren\> I was in the "gifted" program until I realized they were just giving us twice as much work and quit it
23:13:53 <rdococ> Zarutian, I can tell you, what we have right now that passes for "education" in today's world, is horse manure.
23:14:22 <rdococ> I could be curing cancer with doodles, and the teacher would probably still tell me to do my work.
23:14:43 <Zarutian> rdococ: you mean 'show your work' kind of work?
23:15:19 <Zarutian> like in maths. You show every step of the way.
23:15:41 <rdococ> I dislike worksheets that tell me to "show my workings out" even more than I do regular worksheets. What if my mind performs it for me automatically in an efficient manner? Should I draw a picture of a brain?
23:16:15 <Zarutian> or you talking about 'this homework which is impossibly boring and uses stuff that I havent covered yet is due tomorrow', kind of stuff?
23:16:48 <rdococ> Nah. I just plainly refuse and forget about any homework I receive, but I am worried for other students in other schools too.
23:17:54 <\oren\> I think they should increase career oriented focus in high school
23:18:12 <Zarutian> I once got a math teacher two insisted on 'show my workings out', he quit it when he got back a worksheet from me that showed each microstep in excrusiating detail.
23:19:04 <Zarutian> \oren\: perhaps this is a cultural misunderstanding, high school being ages 12-16 years?
23:19:59 <rdococ> But seriously, children are humans - just like adults, and they should be given choices. Many counters I've heard from staff are "What if you get a job and you're told to do something you don't want to do?" My response is always "You get paid for a job, and you signed up for it." Of course, they never respond to that, because they know I'm right.
23:20:02 <Zarutian> elementary school here goes from 5 or 6 to 16 years. There is no high school here.
23:20:12 <\oren\> In Canada: grade 1-6 -> pirmary school, 7+8 : middle school. 9-12 :high school
23:20:16 <Phantom_Hoover> <rdococ> I dislike worksheets that tell me to "show my workings out" even more than I do regular worksheets. What if my mind performs it for me automatically in an efficient manner? Should I draw a picture of a brain?
23:20:42 <Phantom_Hoover> explaining your answers is at least as if not more important than producing correct answers
23:21:25 <rdococ> Also, it has nothing to do with the ratio of good education to horse manure in current "education".
23:21:32 <Phantom_Hoover> because, in general, why would anyone believe the automatic processes of your brain
23:21:39 <Zarutian> rdococ: my response to these kind of 'reasoning' by teachers is: sure I will do it but it better have utility, something that your busywork does not.
23:21:44 -!- boily has joined.
23:22:21 <rdococ> Zarutian: I have previously mentioned a variant of that.
23:22:28 <\oren\> anyway, I think they need to start having streams toward different career categories starting at age 14 at the latest
23:22:59 <rdococ> Scrap that, school is a prison and it needs to be abolished if we want our species to have a future.
23:23:06 <boily> rdochelloc, he\\oren\, Zarutellon.
23:23:27 <Zarutian> also, I knew quite a lot of people that did not leave the school building until the 'homework' was done. Why? Because work is at work and school stuff is no different. If you do not learn this early you will have life-work balance issues.
23:23:40 <boily> school needs to be revised, but kept. it is essential.
23:23:49 <rdococ> Essential to what? Horse manure?
23:24:04 <Zarutian> boily: indeed. But there are pedalogics that defy logics
23:24:15 <\oren\> rdococ: essential to acquiring the skills to earn money
23:24:38 <\oren\> something which even universities aren't focused on these days
23:24:51 <\oren\> that's the core of the problem
23:25:03 <rdococ> \oren\: Depends what you consider under the term "school". Would a learning environment that's not comparable to manure be considered school?
23:25:23 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Are you going to shun me when I reveal that I am presently in school, simply because I am a "student"?
23:25:24 <Zarutian> never understood why univeristies and such are meant to be training camps for employers.
23:25:48 <\oren\> Zarutian: becasue they cost so much
23:25:59 <rdococ> Oh, and it's not just school I have a problem with.
23:26:25 <\oren\> if universities are not teaching how to earn money, then they are a waste of time and a waste of enormous aamounts of money
23:26:26 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, well i mean school can be stressful and shitty for various reasons which can lead one to indulge in fantasies of radical educational reform
23:26:37 <Zarutian> oren: the camps? or the univeristies? Srue the price has gone up but then the overhead has too afaisi.
23:26:44 <rdococ> s/can be/inevitably is
23:27:11 <rdococ> I have a problem with some of the most common parenting practices too.
23:27:44 <Zarutian> talking about schools. The whole concept of grading is crappy but especially how USA implement it.
23:27:45 <rdococ> Time-outs for doing "naughty" things can fuck right off, because children act to achieve their urgent needs.
23:27:51 <rdococ> Urgent needs for love and care.
23:28:11 <rdococ> And it's the parent's fault if the child has to act "naughty" to get attention.
23:28:17 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: I advocate radical education reform and I became a fully-fledged adult with a well paying job more than a year ago
23:28:20 <Zarutian> I have gone back with papers that just got an grade and nothing else from the teacher.
23:28:34 <rdococ> Well, they may be under a lot of stress; work could be to blame too.
23:28:50 <\oren\> however, the problem is that up until university, virtually nothing I was taught I actually use in my present job
23:28:53 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, i have nothing against radical education reform in general but in this case it just reads as venting personal stress
23:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i honestly find the idea that education should be whittled down to totally utilitarian job preparation to be completely abhorrent
23:29:36 <Zarutian> oren: oh, you use what the British called the three Rs, every day do you not? (Reading, wRiting and aRithmatic)
23:29:51 <rdococ> What's wrong with venting personal stress?
23:30:09 <\oren\> I wasn't taught those in school. My parent's taught them to me before I entered kindergarten
23:30:11 <rdococ> Zarutian: Reading can often be learnt at home with these things you can get from shops and libraries called "books".
23:30:19 <Phantom_Hoover> a common line in this vein is "school never taught me to file my taxes or write a monthly budget!"
23:30:52 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: well, why not? isn't that a useful thing that could be included?
23:31:12 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: nor did the schools even teach how to even get information about that kind of stuff. We Icelanders have an class for that kind of stuff, it is called 'Lífsleikni'.
23:31:46 <Phantom_Hoover> well apparently it doesn't work! students just don't give a shit about being taught very specific procedures that they don't actually need to perform yet
23:32:01 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Students don't give a shit about things they're forced into doing.
23:32:26 <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ rdococ how much educational psychology research have you done
23:32:42 <Phantom_Hoover> and how much are you drawing your opinions from "they made me do this at school and it pissed me off"
23:33:07 <rdococ> They force students to do a lot of things. Namely lessons many of them are probably not interested in.
23:33:08 <\oren\> rdococ: hence why I advocate having different streams starting at an early age. kids who like math can go into the math stream and not bother with essays for example
23:33:09 <Phantom_Hoover> b/c my current evaluation is that all your strongly-proclaimed views on How Education Should Be Done derive entirely from the latter
23:33:31 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: My opinions are drawn from "CHILDREN ARE HUMANS".
23:33:41 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: to answer your question even though it was not aimed at me: I have done something strange, I have looked into the methadologies of some educational psychology research and frankly found it rather wanting.
23:34:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i didn't realise that you had a total and infallible model of human nature worked out
23:34:59 <rdococ> What on earth are you talking about?
23:35:15 <Phantom_Hoover> you apparently know exactly what should and shouldn't be done in education
23:35:46 <Zarutian> oren: what I have found the most irritating about schooling is rote-memorization.
23:35:49 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: So you think treating children like actual humans - giving them the right of choice to what they want to learn about - is "exact"?
23:36:07 <Phantom_Hoover> you've never been responsible for a child have you rdococ
23:36:07 <\oren\> there would be at the very least a generalized "Art Stream", "Humanities Stream", "Science Stream", divided starting in grade 5
23:36:18 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: You've never given a fuck about a child, have you?
23:36:29 <Phantom_Hoover> you just are/were recently a child and have a chip on your shoulder about your treatment
23:37:01 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: is the converse the true about you? That you were child so long ago that you have forgotten?
23:37:02 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Seriously?
23:37:13 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, i've never been responsible for a child, no. which is why i don't go around shooting my mouth off about it on the internet like i know for sure how best to do it
23:37:32 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: I have even deeper experience with children. I AM A CHILD.
23:38:13 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: what do you think about the idea of dividing students into different career streams very early
23:38:36 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Hm. Okay. Let me get this straight. You think I should have little to no say in how I should be treated, for what legitimate reason exactly?
23:38:48 <Zarutian> oren: it is not the splitting up the curiculum or such that I deem to be the problem but the actual methods used to do teaching.
23:39:04 <rdococ> At the moment, it's hard not to call you an asshole for thinking I shouldn't be given freedoms.
23:39:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean you are obviously entitled to a say but not to total dictatorial fiat over the matter
23:39:25 <rdococ> That's not what you sound like.
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23:39:38 <int-e> rdococ: Look, one source of your lack of creativity is probably that you simply disregard certain kinds of information as uninteresting. However, one key source of inspiration is to think about various things, and try to connect them. School may not be perfect but it can still function as a source of inspiration. You probably also do not appreciate (but that time will come) just how much free...
23:39:44 <int-e> ...time you have, even with school taking a huge part out of that. Finally, this is hard to accept, but what you think is good for you and what will actually benefit you in the long term are not the same thing.
23:39:48 <\oren\> I think if students are being taught subjects they are interested in they will learn well even if teachers are quite incompetent
23:40:02 <rdococ> So you think shit like school is going to benefit me?
23:40:22 <HackEgo> sleffy: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:40:22 <rdococ> Even if all I've actually learned is "my life is futile" or some shit like that?
23:40:24 <Zarutian> rdococ: you could look at Phantom_Hoover as a demented geraric that should not be given as much freedom as he is old curmagedonly and does not know how to navigate the current world. Just as an thought exercise.
23:40:50 <boily> Phantom_Hoover is old?
23:40:53 <rdococ> Zarutian: You know, that's actually a very good idea. It would show him how I feel.
23:41:03 <rdococ> I'm not sure how I would go about it, though.
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23:41:18 <Phantom_Hoover> fuck me we were the channel babies 6 years ago and already we're geriatrics
23:41:26 <sleffy> whoa, I get a relcome committee?
23:41:31 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: this is how your attitude to rdococ comes across here.
23:42:11 <Phantom_Hoover> my attitude to rdococ is basically "i remember kind of feeling similarly in the past and i now think that i was pretty misguided"
23:42:17 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: why should we teach students to analyze shakespeare if they are destined to program, write proofs, or weld steel?
23:42:28 <rdococ> And it comes across as "You are pretty misguided because I think I was."
23:42:43 <rdococ> Well, Phantom_Hoover, you seem to be the misguided one here.
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23:43:12 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: you remember feeling similarly in the past and now you think you were pretty misguided. What caused your change of heart?
23:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm guessing you're mid teens? everyone in their mid teens thinks that they unquestionably know what's best for them and that the world is unfairly conspiring to keep them down
23:43:38 <Jafet> there is a programming language based on shakespeare
23:43:48 <int-e> . o O ( they're half right anyway... :-P )
23:44:03 <int-e> . o O ( guess which half ;-) )
23:44:05 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: oh, ya think this is purely gelgjuskapur? (closest but not quite acurate translation is teenage agnst)
23:44:07 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, well do you think the purpose of school is solely to turn you into an effective worker
23:44:43 <Zarutian> Jafet: yeah, but I do not recall its name. I could be something like "To Be or Not To Be, that is the buzzing question"
23:44:47 <boily> sleffy: we always welcome newcomers to this fine channel! (we being usually myself, trigger happy with the `relcomes...)
23:44:49 <\oren\> to a first order approximation, an effective worker is an effective contributor to society
23:45:06 <boily> sleffy: have you already perused our magnific wiki?
23:45:15 <Phantom_Hoover> Zarutian, well that's too patronising because obviously a lot of people do go through unfair shit in their teens
23:45:28 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: what is an effective member of society? Everyone I have ever asks only give answers that are insubstancial as fog when probed.
23:45:35 <int-e> boily: did you see that shachaf rebelled against the eternal wisdom?
23:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> but when you're a teenager you tend to be really bad at evaluating that!
23:45:49 <sleffy> boily, that's how I got here
23:46:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Zarutian, idk. as far as shakespeare goes i think the ability to engage with and understand culture is valuable and we would be impoverished without it
23:46:27 <boily> int-ello! what you say!
23:46:28 <Jafet> actually, the language is just named Shakespeare
23:46:28 <sleffy> Specifically, my interest in entirely usable and practical programming languages with real-world applications
23:46:31 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: it is the patronising that seems to be what is comming from you. But then again often the 'it is too complex for you to understand' implict attitude does that.
23:46:39 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Okay. Listen. You think you know what my life is like? Well, you don't. You've grown so old you don't remember how shit school was. But I do remember, because I am living in it. I don't give a fuck if it's "beneficial to me in the long term" (which it absolutely isn't), I'm sick of being treated like shit.
23:47:11 <boily> sleffy: computer science student?
23:47:12 <Phantom_Hoover> look i'm not saying, at all, that whatever you're going through at school is for your own good so shut up and stop complaining
23:47:20 <Zarutian> rdococ: do tell, perhaps we gain some insight why the schooling system is not working, at least not working for you?
23:47:31 <sleffy> boily, I guess I'm technically a student
23:47:48 <sleffy> I'm fresh out of high school, on a "gap year" which turned into getting bored enough to take classes at city college
23:47:55 <\oren\> I was a high school student only 6 years ago
23:47:58 <Phantom_Hoover> what i am saying is that you shouldn't use your personal experiences to inform a total hatred of all formal education
23:48:09 <rdococ> I don't hate all formal education.
23:48:12 <rdococ> I hate all public schooling.
23:48:23 <int-e> boily: http://sprunge.us/NgEP seems to be the relevant bit (for reference, it's now 00:48)
23:48:48 <sleffy> Language design is a hobby, personal goal is a fairly ergonomic efficient and purely functional language which can run without a heap
23:48:56 <Zarutian> Phantom_Hoover: do like I do, look if the experience is shared with lot of other people, then use that to inform the hatred of stultified education.
23:49:00 <rdococ> I hate all public schooling that requires you to "learn" about things you're not interested in.
23:49:05 <boily> int-e: dun dun dun! I can't remember when was the last time I updated it, tho...
23:49:32 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: The point is, the majority of what people think when they hear the word "school", is utter bullshit.
23:49:41 <Zarutian> rdococ: and are not even remotely usefull? is that a good qualifier to add?
23:49:49 <int-e> boily: just before christmas it seems
23:50:00 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, hahaha do you not see how you're coming across here as an angry kid who thinks he knows better than everyone else
23:50:15 <\oren\> Phantom_Hoover: to you maybe, I quite sympathize
23:50:19 <boily> sleffy: running without a heap is quite difficult. you can try to cram everything on the stack, but then you're still stuck doing some memory shuffling by other means to achieve interesting stuff.
23:50:25 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think I know better than everyone else. But I do know better than everyone else about myself.
23:50:35 <rdococ> And, perhaps, other students too.
23:50:37 <boily> int-e: it's always before christmas.
23:50:46 <rdococ> I don't know what goes on in the brains of other people, and I don't admit to that.
23:50:53 <int-e> boily: it's not always *just* before christmas though.
23:50:56 <Phantom_Hoover> you objectively don't, humans are incredibly shitty at self-evaluating
23:50:58 <sleffy> boily, I'm okay with a sorta "holey" stack. That's a necessary sacrifice to make. For reference I'm looking at Rust's implementation which admits the same thing
23:50:58 <rdococ> But I do know many students seem to complain.
23:51:00 <Zarutian> rdococ: even though said usefullness is only to kindle a bit of likeness to good asethetics. Like learning of the still life paintings of the old masters.
23:51:09 <sleffy> TBF Rust trusts the LLVM to optimize bits of that away
23:51:46 <sleffy> And also, while I want it to be usable without a heap, I recognize that for many things a heap is borderline necessary, so I want to make heap operations available via a library
23:52:07 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Imagine a thought experiment where you were prodded and poked with a hot iron, and then I said the same sort of things to you. How would you feel? Probably pretty upset. But that's just your objective shittiness to self-evaluation, correct?
23:52:08 * int-e ponders doing a quick s/shachaf/anonymous/g
23:52:10 <Phantom_Hoover> putting everything on the stack would mean aligning your function call structure with your memory allocation patterns, right?
23:52:16 <Zarutian> rdococ: what do those students complain mostly about?
23:52:55 <Phantom_Hoover> rdococ, i'm not even going to engage with that because you are not in fact being prodded with a hot iron
23:53:09 <\oren\> basically, I was forced to learn about shakespere plays and other things that I wasn't interested in, do not use in my present job, and had no benefit I can percieve.
23:53:45 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Really, I thought I was. </sarcasm> The point is, humans might be shitty at self-evaluation, but they aren't shitty at realising when they're being treated like shit.
23:53:57 <rdococ> What if I said all this kind of stuff to slaves, back when slavery was accepted?
23:54:37 <rdococ> But now you're grateful because you can now torment the next generation on how they're so bad at self-evaluation?
23:54:39 <Phantom_Hoover> later on in english we did some other texts which i found engaging and had things to say about
23:54:44 <sleffy> Phantom_Hoover, yeah, I guess so, if I understand exactly what you mean
23:54:55 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: What does that have to do with shakespeare?
23:54:59 <sleffy> I assume you're referring to returning large structures which don't fit in a register?
23:55:09 <Zarutian> rdococ: news for ya, most people are still bad at self-evaluation even after teenage years.
23:55:17 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe if they had started with the engaging texts, you'd be a writer.
23:55:25 * Zarutian considers himself below average driver for example.
23:55:55 <Phantom_Hoover> and subsequently the ability to critically analyse works i read for entertainment has, i think, really enhanced my appreciation of them
23:55:58 <rdococ> Zarutian: Maybe that's what Phantom_Hoover is going through, then. He is re-evaluating his past at school, and his past-evaluation is shit - which I definitely agree is true.
23:56:13 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Again, maybe if they had started with the engaging texts, you'd be a author.
23:56:14 <Jafet> it's kind of hard to make a minimalist stack language if you want it to be more powerful than push-down
23:56:40 <rdococ> Jafet: You could cheat and turn it into a tape by adding a command to move the top element to the bottom.
23:57:26 <\oren\> rdococ: I have a more advanced theory: If I hadn't wasted so much time on useless stuff I could have entered university 2 years earlier, and by now been working fro 3 years.
23:57:27 <Phantom_Hoover> efficient stack-only allocation basically just means that you malloc/free in FILO order
23:57:34 <Jafet> it's already hard to make a pure functional language that doesn't have pippenger's slowdown
23:57:44 <Jafet> well malloc isn't really minimalist
23:57:51 <rdococ> Phantom_Hoover: Do you think your two separate experiences of "doing Shakespeare" and "critically analysing works" somehow 'prove' that school is 'good' for you? Because they don't.
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23:58:34 <Phantom_Hoover> i think they proved to me that hating being in a class in school does not invalidate the entire value of teching that thing in school
23:58:36 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:58:52 <rdococ> It kind of does, if you're not interested in such a thing in the first place.
23:59:12 <rdococ> Either way, it definitely comes across to me that you are saying "whatever you're going through at school is for your own good so shut up and stop complaining"
23:59:33 <\oren\> basically, by not allowing children to specialize their education to the things they are good at, we are wasting literally YEARS of productivity for every individual
23:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> no, not at all. i am saying that please stop posting here saying that school is useless and terrible
23:59:45 <Jafet> also you may mean fifo order, which is less delicious but more stack-like