←2017-06-05 2017-06-06 2017-06-07→ ↑2017 ↑all
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00:07:49 <Sgeo> `olist 1075
00:07:50 <HackEgo> olist 1075: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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00:12:33 <shachaf> `thanks Sgeo
00:12:34 <HackEgo> Thanks, Sgeo. Theo.
00:13:47 <shachaf> Theobromine
00:14:35 <Taneb> Used to be friends with at least one Theo
00:14:40 <Taneb> `quote recursion
00:14:42 <HackEgo> 384) <Taneb> Turned out he got recursion, he just didn't get the return statement
00:14:48 <Taneb> I think that was about a Theo
00:15:14 <shachaf> Not friends with him anymore?
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00:16:38 <Taneb> Was never particularly close to that Theo
00:16:47 <Taneb> Lost touch with every Theo I ever knew though
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00:46:52 <wob_jonas> Do we have a *list for the bitcoin protocol schism?
00:47:03 <shachaf> `coins
00:47:08 <HackEgo> ztschestepcoin 5-loncoin blinifucoin hatercoin olarunticcoin iberacoin excitcoin omecoin emigusforcoin yelcoin zatiocoin hexcoin gallcoin bagcoin syriangycoin impcoin rentcoin frogranscoin bractcoin celcoin
00:47:09 <shachaf> hth
00:47:20 <shachaf> how can i acquire some hatercoin
00:50:56 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> I have seen some TV sets have caption on mute, but many newer TV sets I have seen do not have that feature. Do you know why?" => TVs do caption? you mean apart from overlaying teletext (with transparent background and no bottom navi elements) on the screen?
00:51:17 <wob_jonas> I didn't know such a feature existed. probably I'm not up to date with how TVs work by like a decade.
00:57:24 <zzo38> You can usually set if you want a transparent or opaque or translucent background, as well as font settings and colours and so on for the captions
00:58:35 <wob_jonas> wait, *font settings* too? you mean you can change the font (not just zoom it or move it around on the screen)? so it's not like DVD captions which are stored as bitmaps?
00:58:52 <wob_jonas> bitmap images that is, not character-based text
01:01:00 <zzo38> Captions are different than subtitles (which are stored as pictures).
01:01:44 <wob_jonas> huh what
01:01:47 <wob_jonas> then what are captions?
01:02:04 <zzo38> What fonts are available depends on the device that displays them (usually the TV set, although I have a DVD player that can decode captions, from TV, video input, VHS, and DVD).
01:02:38 <zzo38> Captions are coded as text, and I think it is better than subtitles. DVDs can have captions as well as subtitles.
01:03:21 <wob_jonas> I see
01:04:40 <zzo38> There are actually four different streams of captions, although usually only the first one is used as far as I can tell, although I did see one television show that mentioned that you could select the third captions if you wanted captions in Spanish.
01:05:48 <zzo38> (I just leave captions on all the time on my TV set anyways, although some shows do not have captions, and sometimes the people who write the captions do not do it properly.)
01:06:42 <wob_jonas> multiple streams isn't too surprising. some TV stations are broadcast with multiple audio streams in different languages.
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01:08:03 <zzo38> Yes, there are sometimes multiple audio streams too, as well as multiple text streams. For digital television there is six text streams I think; analog television has four "CC" text streams and four "TEXT" text streams (the latter seem to never be used as far as I can tell).
01:09:11 <wob_jonas> analog television? isn't that stopped already so that people have to buy new gadgets?
01:09:16 <wob_jonas> I think it is stopped here
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01:13:37 <zzo38> Yes, although the analog captions are still output in the retrace intervals of analog signals if you use them.
01:14:27 <wob_jonas> and that isn't just teletext?
01:15:15 <wob_jonas> hmm no, I think teletext isn't in the retrace intervals
01:15:18 <wob_jonas> but I'm not sure
01:15:41 <shachaf> `coins
01:15:43 <HackEgo> obnbabted!coin lenagecoin triggecoin anocoin wurzellercoin chrcoin soncoin chercoin hpwcoin clefuckcoin carmacoin mechouffcoin nothcoin bandcoin miniumbrancoin unreamcoin legthcoin xandcoin omogovcoin hurcoin
01:15:44 <zzo38> I don't actually know how teletext is working, so I do not know. However, I think teletext can have page numbers.
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01:19:41 <zzo38> HDMI cannot emit captions, so you will have to command the emitting device to include captions in the picture. My own design which is Digi-RGB also does not emit captions (it can emit only the picture and nothing else), but can be used together with a IMIDI interface which may be used to emit captions (as well as other stuff).
01:20:34 <wob_jonas> how about DVI?
01:20:52 <zzo38> DVI is a subset of HDMI and also cannot emit captions.
01:21:30 <zzo38> I do not actually have a television set which can decode captions, although the VCR/DVD combo does, so if other devices are connected through that, then the captions can be displayed. However, setting the captions needs going into the setup menu, which cannot be displayed while a VHS or DVD is playing.
01:21:53 <zzo38> (Subtitles can be switched while a DVD is playing, though.)
01:30:28 <zzo38> Have you used MMIX? Did you write that article on esolang wiki?
01:31:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: I haven't used MMIX for anything, but I did write the article
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01:33:52 <wob_jonas> I should also write the MIX article at some point
01:34:08 <zzo38> You could see the Deadfish implementation I made in MMIX if you wanted to see one I suppose. Also, MMIX does support for an operating system to require the user program to map stuff if needed, because it does allow permissions (read, write, execute) to be set for each page, so if there is no permission then it is an error so you can detect segmentation errors like that.
01:34:16 <zzo38> And, yes MIX article should also be written.
01:34:34 <zzo38> Do you know what you wanted to write about the strange executable binary format?
01:35:59 <wob_jonas> zzo38: sure, some of the stuff is about the NNIX abi, not just MMIX
01:36:27 <zzo38> (That Deadfish implementation is first program I wrote with MMIX, although I also started writing a Z-machine implementation with MMIX too.)
01:37:03 <wob_jonas> the strange executable binary format? probably just that all the backreferences in the assembly are resolved at program load time
01:37:05 <zzo38> wob_jonas: Yes, although NNIX is not quite a complete system as it is now anyways.
01:37:22 <wob_jonas> also that it doesn't have separate assembly
01:37:46 <zzo38> I mentioned about those references in my user page too I think; I mentioned a few things about MMIX on my user page too (with a link to your MMIX article included).
01:38:18 <wob_jonas> and that it's like a format the assembler spits out in a single pass forward, so all the metadata stuff is mixed with the data, and the data can't just be mapped and then modified in place
01:38:34 <wob_jonas> it has to be all copied wordwise or something
01:38:59 <wob_jonas> if you wanted to use MMIX with a real OS, you'd just use ELF
01:39:02 <zzo38> Yes, that is what it look like to me too, when I looked at it. It mean assembler can make output by one pass.
01:39:17 <zzo38> I think GNU MMIX does support ELF?
01:39:31 <wob_jonas> mind you, you wouldn't want to use MMIX for real stuff, for other reasons, but you could fix those other problems without breaking most of the user-space MMIX programs
01:40:15 <wob_jonas> that's what I'd guess, since gnu binutils already supports ELF for multiple platforms, it wouldn't be difficult to do that
01:40:51 <wob_jonas> they'd still have to add some arch-specific stuff into it and the dynamic linker of course
01:40:51 <zzo38> You can still make the operating system that still uses the existing NNIX functions, but can add other stuff too, including other binary formats too I suppose.
01:41:19 <wob_jonas> sure, the syscalls are compatible. some existing systems have multiple sets of syscalls too
01:42:39 <wob_jonas> and even the memory mapping policy can differ per executable
01:43:20 <zzo38> Yes it can do too
01:43:28 <wob_jonas> the real deal breaker is the no memory protection in kernel mode, but you can probably fix that in such a way that userspace doesn't notice
01:44:22 <zzo38> I think you can do without memory protection in kernel mode
01:44:25 <wob_jonas> (the slow interrupt mechanisms is not a deal-breaker, because other systems got around with a slow interrupt mechanism for decades until it got fixed, and it could be fixed without changing the cpu by changing only the ABI I think)
01:44:48 <wob_jonas> zzo38: not in the real world, no. you'd just have bugs undetected that way.
01:45:20 <wob_jonas> even if you put most of the kernel to run into userspace
01:46:09 <zzo38> You can use an external device that looks on the address bus if you really need to I suppose, to detect memory errors while testing, or modify the emulator to test your specific kernel program
01:46:36 <wob_jonas> zzo38: well sure, if you want technical wins
01:46:47 <wob_jonas> so you add another chip because the mmix itself can't do what you want
01:46:51 <wob_jonas> that works
01:48:10 <wob_jonas> what I would really like to know about CPU architecture is whether there's some realistic way to get x86_64 to have a feature where (non-huge) pages are larger (say 8K or 16K) and get real practical systems to use this feature
01:48:45 <zzo38> You will need other chips for I/O anyways, but in the case I specified it is possible that you might need only for testing, possibly; still, other extensions are possible such as an implementation of MMIX that has additional special registers for controlling such additional functions.
01:48:58 <wob_jonas> that's a question partly of whether you can get the kernel and userspace to cooperate with mandatory larger pages (so they can't expect per-4K mmaps) and whether the cpu caches can be rigged to handle this properly
01:49:32 <wob_jonas> because x86_64 with larger page sizes would be really rad
01:49:54 <wob_jonas> but you can only do it globally, as in, all pages have to be that size
01:49:58 <wob_jonas> not just half the pages
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03:17:07 <MDude> junk
03:17:09 <MDude> ?
03:17:17 <MDude> Dangit, I'm tying to ctrl+f here
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06:38:53 <\oren\> god damn it paradox
06:39:40 <\oren\> Why is the war between commie china and non-aligned china named "Chinese war on China"?
06:40:07 <\oren\> what a retarded name for a war
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13:13:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SelfiAS * New user account
13:26:51 <oerjan> . o O ( do we really want to encourage selfies on the wiki )
13:48:18 <int-e> . o O ( a mapole is just a very sturdy, non-expandable selfie stick with no way of attaching a movile phone )
13:48:35 <int-e> vbvbvbvbv
13:53:25 <oerjan> `? vbvbvbvbv
13:53:29 <HackEgo> vbvbvbvbv? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
13:54:59 <int-e> I thought that if I make the string long enough it will blur the distinction between the two letters and thus hide my typo.
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14:01:07 <oerjan> oh. i thought you were spelling out a raspberry.
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14:48:15 <wob_jonas> hahaha! They continue to use the space that an oversized card and no mana cost gives. The new scheme cards have nice full phrase titles again
14:48:30 <wob_jonas> "What's Yours Is Now Mine"
14:48:55 <wob_jonas> next year: Archenemy: Mojo Jojo, another villain fit for scheming
14:49:53 <wob_jonas> "Bow to My Command"
14:50:17 <wob_jonas> pity for the card frames though
14:50:43 <wob_jonas> (M:tG reveals the 20 new scheme cards in the soon to be released Archenemy: Nicol Bolas product)
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15:01:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52071&oldid=52061 * Raddish0 * (+18)
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15:29:49 <wob_jonas> There should be a cycle of four sorcery cards like (Indoctrinate | 4WW | Sorcery | Gain control of target nongreen creature.) (Enthrall | 4UU | Sorcery | Gain control of target nongreen creature.) (Buy Loyalty | 4BB | Sorcery | Gain control of target nongreen creature.) (??? | 4RR | Gain control of target nongreen creature.
15:29:53 <wob_jonas> )
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15:37:23 <int-e> it really doesn't sound like a very red thing to do
15:37:56 <int-e> even if you incite a revolt you would just revel in the carnage and not try to recruit new followers :P
15:38:27 <wob_jonas> int-e: but doesn't red already have the most creature steal effects? they're just temporary. they're flavored as either treason or madness
15:38:28 <int-e> "instigate" may be better
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15:39:55 <int-e> I'd say the temporary aspect is part of the flavor.
15:40:05 <wob_jonas> yeah
15:40:26 <wob_jonas> maybe red shouldn't be able to get such a permanent effect
15:43:20 <rdococ> hi
15:47:24 <wob_jonas> some card names like Brainwash, Blackmail, Dominate, Domineer, Mind Control, Provoke, Puppeteer, Zombify are already taken, but a lot of good card names are free: Conscript, Draft, Embezzle, Hypnotize, Mesmerize, Overpower
15:50:15 <wob_jonas> for white I'd prefer a name that shows that white is the only color that can make a creature serve you and actually like it, and think that serving you is the right thing, what he should have done all along
15:50:24 <wob_jonas> Indoctrinate isn't the right word for that
15:50:36 <wob_jonas> Reeducate isn't either
15:51:47 <wob_jonas> and there's probably censorship so Wizards can't name cards anything like "Labor Camp", "Mind Rape", "Drug"
15:52:28 <wob_jonas> or, whatever they called the camps where they got free labor of high schoolers?
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16:01:23 <wob_jonas> irc connection doesn't work well for some reason. anyway, they're called építőtábor, was associated with KISZ, and probably can't be mentioned on a card either.
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17:40:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52072&oldid=52071 * Raddish0 * (+111)
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18:16:53 <wob_jonas> "http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/mechanical-color-pie-2017-2017-06-05" => "The idea being that blue only wants to transform something when they know what they're going to get, whereas red is willing to take a risk." Maro has betrayed the Simic guild and Experiment Kraj!
18:17:18 <wob_jonas> when has blue cared about knowing the outcome of an experiment in advance?
18:18:43 <wob_jonas> I guess the scheming Nicol Bolas has distorted Maro's mind about what blue should be like
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18:34:16 <\oren\> wob_jonas: lol
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18:46:28 <sleffy> `? mushroom
18:46:29 <HackEgo> mushroom? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
18:47:05 <shachaf> `? tanebventions
18:47:06 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
18:47:48 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//sa/, s/, mushrooms&/
18:47:49 <HackEgo> ​/bin/sed: -e expression #1, char 20: unterminated `s' command
18:47:56 <shachaf> `slwd tanebvention//s/, sa/, mushrooms&/
18:48:00 <HackEgo> tanebvention//Tanebventions include automatic squirrel feeders, necessity, Go, submarine jousting, Fueue, the universe, special relativity, metar, weetoflakes, mushrooms, sand, dragons, persistence, the BBC, _46bit, cognac, progress, sanity, the Oxford comma, and this sentence. See also tanebventions: maths. He never invents anything involving sex.
18:49:56 <zzo38> If there is a censor that Wizards of the Coast will not name card with some things, then it mean you can use such name for custom cards if they are going to fit.
18:51:17 <shachaf> But you can do that anyway.
18:52:40 <zzo38> Yes, although it also mean it can't conflict, as long as you know exactly what censor they have! But that seems difficult to know anyways.
18:52:47 <\oren\> Куруру куру куру фува фува тобидашита но
18:52:56 <\oren\> Йахо йахо фуйо фуйо фуйо фуери атама
18:53:05 <\oren\> Пуйо пуйо фува фувари тобидасу йо
18:53:48 <\oren\> now, without googling, what language is the above in?
18:54:54 <\oren\> Атама даке сора ни дёбон атама даке сора ни дёбон урара
18:54:59 <zzo38> Cyrillic, maybe? I don't know.
18:55:04 <\oren\> it
18:55:21 <\oren\> is written in cyrillic, but what language is it?
18:55:30 <zzo38> Cyrillic.
18:56:17 <\oren\> cyrillic is an alphabet not a language. like right now I'm writing english in the latin alphabet
18:56:45 <zzo38> O, OK.
18:57:17 <zzo38> But isn't Latin another different language anyways?
18:57:22 <sleffy> `? cyrillic
18:57:23 <HackEgo> cyrillic? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
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18:58:00 <\oren\> yes but many languages other than latin use the latin alphabet
18:58:49 <zzo38> Yes. But my guess was that your writing was in Cyrillic language and using Cyrillic alphabets.
19:02:05 <\oren\> there's no language called "cyrillic" though
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19:03:18 <\oren\> shachaf: can you figure it out?
19:04:06 <shachaf> ?
19:04:19 <shachaf> What's the point of a "without looking it up" puzzle?
19:06:55 <rdococ> `help
19:06:55 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch [<output-file>] <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:11:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
19:15:10 <\oren\> anyway the answer is, it's japanese written in the russian alphabet
19:15:14 <\oren\> some russian is going around writing the lyrics to all these J-pop songs in the comments, in russian.
19:15:39 <\oren\> but it's weird because he's using ва, a russian 'va', for the わ/ワ
19:18:43 <wob_jonas> \oren\: like http://www.omniglot.com/conscripts/renglish.htm ?
19:20:04 <wob_jonas> and I still have the suspicion that cyrillic isn't a script or an alphabet, but at least two of them, the Russian script that is also used for Ukranian with modifications, and the Serbian Cyrillic script that is also used for Macedonean and Bulgarian with modifications, and the two got conflated to one script for political reasons
19:28:50 <zzo38> I have written some idea for a kind of variant of MMIX, where the instructions from #01 to #17 are replaced with new ones: FLOP, LDIR, STIR, LDUNO, STUNW, STUNT, STUNO, SMUX, SHIN, SHINU, SHOUT, SHOUTU.
19:31:54 <zzo38> I don't know if you think is ood or whatever though
19:34:15 <wob_jonas> zzo38: what do those instructions do?
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19:35:45 <zzo38> FLOP = floating point operation (the instructions that #01 to #17 used to be, as well as multiple/add together, and reciprocal, and average), LDIR = load indexed register, STIR = store indexed register, LDUNO = load unaligned octa, STUN? = store unaligned ???, SMUX = sideways multiplex (like Muxcomp64), SHIN = shift in, SHOUT = shift out.
19:36:40 <wob_jonas> what's "multiple/add together"?
19:37:07 <zzo38> (Unaligned loads/stores may require multiple memory accesses in order to work)
19:37:21 <zzo38> wob_jonas: It is basically like a fused multiply add.
19:37:55 <wob_jonas> LDIR and STIR sound like bad ideas. would make the implementation of an optimized cpu way harder than for MMIX
19:39:54 <zzo38> They may be as slow as SYNCID in the worst case I guess.
19:40:33 <zzo38> Since a similar thing could be done with SYNCID too
19:42:45 <wob_jonas> LDUNO and STUN? => um, maybe, they sort of go against MMIX flow but could be useful, but do you have the descr of the exact behavior of the exception if you try to store through a page fault boundary?
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19:43:13 <zzo38> That is a good point.
19:43:47 <wob_jonas> and yeah, LDIR and STIR have to handle rolling the register stack too
19:44:15 <wob_jonas> but that might not be worse than other instructions
19:45:23 <wob_jonas> instead of STUN?, wouldn't a store octa with a byte-granular mask be better?
19:45:35 <wob_jonas> load-modify-store
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19:45:57 <wob_jonas> still would be unusual for MMIX I guess
19:46:21 <zzo38> O, I suppose you may be right about a byte-granular mask
19:46:59 <wob_jonas> are SHIN and SHOUT the two outputs of a double shift?
19:47:11 <wob_jonas> or, um
19:47:31 <wob_jonas> the one output of a double shift, in two shift directions
19:48:02 <zzo38> SHIN is shifting left $X and the low bits of $Y are stored in the shifted in bits, and SHOUT is shifting right $X and storing the shifted out bits in $Y.
19:49:47 <wob_jonas> double shifts then. ok.
19:50:16 <wob_jonas> would those come in pairs with immediate versions? immediate shift count is actually useful there
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19:50:54 <zzo38> Yes they do come in pairs with immediate versions.
19:51:15 <zzo38> All of the instructions I listed other than FLOP do have immediate versions too.
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20:00:01 <zzo38> Some of things I have done in making Z-machine implementation on MMIX are stuff that I do not expect any C compiler to ever do (such as storing the VM memory at the beginning of the text segment), and some are stuff that I think a C compiler might do but I don't know whether or not it does.
20:02:24 <zzo38> Do you know?
20:02:28 <wob_jonas> "storing the VM memory at the beginning of the text segment" -- Linux has some magic incantation for allowing you to map stuff to zero address
20:02:43 <wob_jonas> (which is normally unmapped, to catch null pointer dereference bugs)
20:04:01 <zzo38> Yes, that is one of the reasons that a C compiler ordinarily will not do, I think, and why operating system is normally not implement it
20:04:34 <wob_jonas> um... the OS normally not allowing it is a level further than the C compiler ordinarily not doing it
20:04:38 <zzo38> The actual program starts at #20000
20:04:45 <wob_jonas> there's a lot of things the OS does allow but C compilers don't like to do
20:05:31 <zzo38> Yes, it is a further level, and NNIX is different than Linux of course.
20:06:31 <zzo38> What numbers will be needed in ELF to use MMIX and NNIX if you are using with ELF anyways? And then those fields in the ELF header can be used to allow the operating system to implement emulation of other system you can run multiple kind of programs on your computer.
20:09:13 <wob_jonas> "multiple kind of programs on your computer" => hmm, does Linux allow you to mix 16-bit and 32-bit code in an x86_32 executable, and farjump between them quickly without a syscall?
20:10:22 <zzo38> I don't know, although it can execute both 32-bit programs and 64-bit programs on the same operating system.
20:10:33 <wob_jonas> that's different
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20:12:49 <zzo38> Yes, although I did not mean mixing codes in the same program, I just meant that if the operating system and instruction set indication in the ELF header are not the native ones, that it would execute the program using an emulator.
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20:20:19 <zzo38> I think that storing the VM memory at the beginning of the text segment can help with the address decoding in Z-machine, because then you do not have to add the base offset. I have global registers ENDIAN and CENDIAN for endianness, where ENDIAN is 0 for big-endian and 1 for small-endian, while CENDIAN is 0 for small-endian and is 1 for big-endian. With MMIX you can add two addresses together with a LDBU instruction, so this can be use in this way.
20:21:07 <zzo38> Including for reading the Z-machine header, since the Z operand can be a 8-bit immediate number.
20:22:02 <wob_jonas> zzo38: um, can't you instead use an MOR instruction to conditionally reverse endianness?
20:23:25 <wob_jonas> or compiling two emulator versions, one for big endian and one for little endian, and dispatching between them early?
20:23:28 <zzo38> Yes, and I did think of that too, but I decided against it, because in Z-machine there can be unaligned storage.
20:23:44 <wob_jonas> ah, unaligned storage
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20:28:47 <zzo38> (All known Z-machine story files are big-endian, although because of the unaligned memory in Z-machine, it can be made to support both without more difficulty than the unalignment already results with.)
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20:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Turtle1331 * New user account
21:04:54 -!- augur has joined.
21:12:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52073&oldid=52064 * Turtle1331 * (+292)
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22:03:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VTFF]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52074 * Programmer5000 * (+1703) Created page with "'''VTFF''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by [[User:Programmer5000]]. It uses only 2 characters, <code>0x0b</code> and <code>0x0c</code>, which are '''V'''ert..."
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22:06:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52075&oldid=52000 * Programmer5000 * (+11) Add VTFF
22:07:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Programmer5000]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52076&oldid=51948 * Programmer5000 * (+14)
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22:19:15 <shachaf> `? Cale
22:19:16 <HackEgo> Cale? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:19:29 <Cale> `? shachaf
22:19:30 <HackEgo> Queen Shachaf of the Dawn sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion. He doesn't know when to stop asking questions.
22:19:39 <shachaf> Cale sprø som selleri
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22:28:13 <oerjan> <\oren\> now, without googling, what language is the above in? <-- without reading the rest of logs, it seems to have a very similar sound to japanese.
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22:28:58 <oerjan> but maybe not entirely.
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22:32:19 <oerjan> cv syllables, except for a couple ending n's.
22:33:47 <oerjan> "tobidashita no" just has to be japanese, so either it's that or a language which has borrowed a lot from it.
22:34:05 <shachaf> oerjan: he gave away the answer later, it's japanese hth
22:34:12 <oerjan> OKAY
22:35:55 * oerjan has been learning to read cyrillic while learning some russian songs. currently slightly over halfway through Moscow Nights.
22:36:07 <shachaf> I can read some Cyrillic.
22:36:16 <shachaf> But I still usually get mixed up with some of the vowels.
22:36:56 <pikhq_> Yeah, definitely Japanese.
22:37:22 <oerjan> i had the hardest time distinguishing those sh-like letters.
22:37:58 <pikhq_> "tobidasu" is "to jump out" or "to appear suddenly".
22:38:17 <shachaf> Yes, I can barely distinguish the sounds of ш and щ
22:38:30 <pikhq_> So "tobidashita no" would be "(Because) (it) jumped out"
22:38:31 <shachaf> pikhq_: or "to bidasu"
22:38:45 <pikhq_> No, it's a compound of "tobu" and "dasu".
22:39:51 <oerjan> shachaf: i actually meant remembering which letter is which. although the sounds are strange too. i think сь is weirder than both of those.
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22:41:15 <Warrigal> So I thought of how to make object-oriented programming a bit more... Kay-like?
22:41:41 <Warrigal> Object-oriented programming with static typing, I mean.
22:42:10 <Warrigal> The dynamically typed stuff... that's been Kay-like since that one guy *created* object-oriented programming.
22:42:13 <Warrigal> Some guy by the name of Kay.
22:42:27 <Warrigal> Anyway, just do two things.
22:42:39 <Warrigal> One, classes cannot be types. Only interfaces can be types.
22:42:55 <oerjan> so far this song has a particularly tricky "Все здесь".
22:43:23 <zzo38> Warrigal: And then what?
22:43:26 <Warrigal> And two, classes cannot have static members.
22:43:37 <zzo38> OK
22:43:39 <oerjan> * "Всё здесь".
22:43:54 <oerjan> (although the distinction isn't usually written)
22:44:10 <zzo38> Warrigal: I think that can work.
22:44:10 <Warrigal> This means you can't do, say, Console.WriteLine("Hello, world!"), because Console can't have a static method called WriteLine.
22:44:36 <Warrigal> So what do you do? Just make it an instance method? No, because then you'd want to call it like...
22:44:48 <Warrigal> new Console().WriteLine("Hello, world!");
22:45:07 <Warrigal> But there are no constructors. Constructors are static members.
22:45:22 <zzo38> Well, if you can do Console.WriteLine it would mean that Console is not a class, but rather is a object that is already define, or a namespace, or whatever
22:45:29 <Warrigal> Right.
22:45:46 <Warrigal> So what *do* you do?
22:46:04 <Warrigal> Well, there's some type called "Console". It's an interface, of course, not a class.
22:46:20 <zzo38> You will call it on the interface for stdout, or a global function
22:46:28 <Warrigal> So you just have to obtain a Console object and call the method. Perhaps something like...
22:46:40 <Warrigal> obtain Console.WriteLine("Hello, world!");
22:46:59 <Cale> shachaf: I don't know what to make of the хо though
22:47:29 <zzo38> It could be obstain by making the variable which is the Console interface for stdout, and then do.
22:48:08 <Warrigal> So where does the Console object come from? It comes from your object's context object.
22:48:16 <Cale> Wouldn't expect an /x/ sound in Japanese
22:48:54 <pikhq_> Could be an odd transcription?
22:49:16 <Warrigal> When the program object is initially created, it receives a context pointing at "default" obtainment methods for various interfaces.
22:49:40 <Warrigal> When you create additional objects, you can give them the same context, or you can use a different context that behaves differently.
22:49:47 <Warrigal> Now, the point of all this...
22:50:00 <Warrigal> Is that it's impossible to write code which depends on a particular implementation.
22:50:16 <Warrigal> It's *always* possible to substitute your own implementation for whatever the code is expecting.
22:50:21 <pikhq_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrillization_of_Japanese
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22:51:40 <Warrigal> So, suppose you have some code which attempts to write to the console. Well, there's no way for it to restrict itself to only use the actual console.
22:51:49 <Warrigal> No matter how it's written, you can supply it with your *own* console instead.
22:52:21 <shachaf> Cale: xo?
22:52:38 <shachaf> Oh, хо
22:54:15 <zzo38> Warrigal: Yes. It can be the console that you pass into the input of your program, I suppose, or something a bit similar
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23:02:01 <shachaf> fungot: are you a fungus bot
23:02:01 <fungot> shachaf: just don't make a line just for a pint. f) ' (
23:02:25 <shachaf> fungot is saying that cocaine is a gateway drug to alcohol
23:02:26 <fungot> shachaf: bloody grannies i tell you guys about this one
23:02:35 <shachaf> bloody grannies
23:03:06 <oerjan> Cale: basically, russian has no "h" sound, and х is the closest.
23:06:37 -!- tromp has joined.
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23:07:19 <shachaf> Remind me again why the derivative is a functor?
23:07:47 <shachaf> Say you have g : U -> V; f : V -> W
23:08:13 <shachaf> D(f . g)(p) = Df(g(p)) . Dg(p)
23:08:15 <shachaf> Is that right?
23:08:36 <oerjan> although sometimes they use г to translate it instead. E.g. wikipedia's russian phonology article has an example "Адольф Гитлер".
23:09:17 -!- LKoen has joined.
23:09:42 <oerjan> i think г was a fricative historically, and still is in some dialects.
23:09:53 <shachaf> Is that thing functoriality of D somehow?
23:10:05 <shachaf> Or do you have to use fancier categories to make it work?
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23:12:33 <FireFly> <Cale> shachaf: I don't know what to make of the хо though ← chinese checkers?
23:12:44 <shachaf> HireFly
23:12:50 <FireFly> err, not chinese checkers
23:13:20 <FireFly> five-in-a-row (or tic-tac-toe I guess)
23:13:36 <FireFly> hachaf
23:13:40 <oerjan> a tac-tic blunder
23:13:57 <shachaf> can i HireFly
23:14:02 <FireFly> Probably
23:14:03 <shachaf> what are your rates
23:14:07 <shachaf> what do fireflies eat
23:14:21 <FireFly> Mostly they drink a lot of iced tea this time of the year
23:14:45 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it's a functor if you think of Df as a mapping between tangent bundles
23:15:12 <FireFly> shachaf: I have an interview next monday
23:15:15 <shachaf> How does that work?
23:15:24 <shachaf> FireFly: What kind?
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23:16:15 <oerjan> well at each point x in U you have a tangent space, and that is mapped into the tangent space of g(x).
23:16:20 <\oren\> hmm, they transliterated ジャブジャブ to джабу джабу
23:16:39 <\oren\> seems ledzhit
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23:18:37 <shachaf> FireFly: maybe you'll end up like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Goma
23:19:33 <boily> hellørjan, he\\oren\, helloochaf.
23:19:51 <oerjan> bood evenily
23:19:52 <shachaf> you don't have to helloveryone every time you join the channel
23:20:01 <FireFly> shachaf: oh, the job kind
23:20:17 <oerjan> oh no shachaf's grumpiness as engulfed the porthellos
23:20:18 <FireFly> ...and not at a television company, luckily
23:20:20 <oerjan> *has
23:20:28 <FireFly> so I think the risk of that happening is slim
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23:22:13 <\oren\> boily: what are your opinions on cyrillization of japanese
23:23:22 <FireFly> "Twenty minutes after the television interview, Goma attended his job interview, which lasted ten minutes.[2] He was not hired.[3]"
23:24:26 <shachaf> oerjan: shachaf's grumpiness knows no bounds
23:24:45 <oerjan> aiiyeeh
23:24:46 <int-e> yay I build a sequence sorter... so clumsy.
23:25:01 <shachaf> int-e: Is this TIS-100?
23:25:12 <int-e> yes.
23:25:25 <FireFly> I don't think I ever solved that task…
23:25:44 <int-e> the exposure mask viewer is also evil
23:25:57 <FireFly> that one was fun :D
23:26:31 <FireFly> I managed to solve some of the problems quite efficiently I think
23:26:45 <shachaf> oerjan: So it's the tangent space of f at the point g(p)?
23:27:35 <int-e> FireFly: the exposure mask thingy suffers from a severe lack of registers... wasn't easy to come up with a plan of attack, for me.
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23:30:55 <FireFly> that's the rectangle-drawing one, right? what did the input look like for each rectangle?
23:31:15 <int-e> x,y,w,h
23:33:41 <FireFly> Hmm
23:33:47 <FireFly> I can't remember how I solved that one
23:34:54 <int-e> and a reasonable output would be x,y,3(w times),-1, x,y+1,3(w times),-1, ... x,y+h-1,3(w times),-1.
23:35:16 <FireFly> Yeah, I definitely had `h` as a loop counter in some node
23:35:45 <int-e> anyway I managed this time
23:35:49 <FireFly> \o/
23:36:20 <shachaf> What are some fancy surprising Turing-complete machines?
23:37:55 -!- \oren\ has set topic: Unregistered HyperCam 2 | vampiric variables | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | For bot testing, use #esoteric-blah.
23:37:57 <shachaf> I didn't know until recently that a finite state machine with two counters was Turing-complete.
23:39:45 <\oren\> shachaf: hold on what? what operations are allowed on the counters
23:40:53 <shachaf> Increment, decrement, check for zero?
23:41:09 <shachaf> Do you need anything else?
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23:41:43 <int-e> Minsky machine
23:43:01 <int-e> It's very nice, if you don't mind the doubly exponential slowdown compared to a Turing machine :)
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23:43:37 <int-e> \oren\: the counters are unbounded natural numbers
23:46:58 <int-e> FireFly: I picked up the game again yesterday after a 6 month break (or thereabouts); the two things I'm most proud of is that I finally found a use for JRO and ANY (but none for LAST, yet).
23:47:10 <shachaf> int-e: Did you play that other game?
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23:47:22 <shachaf> Shenzhen I/O
23:47:24 <FireFly> JRO is *very* useful once one sees how to use it
23:47:26 <int-e> no
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23:47:48 <FireFly> ANY (and sometimes LAST) are useful for demultiplexing
23:48:28 <shachaf> What's JRO?
23:48:37 <shachaf> Jump relative offset or something like that?
23:48:48 <int-e> "jump relative offset", where the offset can be variable
23:49:15 <shachaf> I'm seeing people talk about it online.
23:49:18 <shachaf> JRO RIGHT
23:49:19 <shachaf> tg
23:49:30 <shachaf> I didn't play this game much. For some reason I think I stopped being able to run it?
23:49:30 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: So it's the tangent space of f at the point g(p)? <-- points have tangent spaces, not functions. at least for this purpose.
23:50:25 <shachaf> I mean the tangent space of the graph of f at the point (p,g(p))
23:50:41 <shachaf> I assume a tangent space of a point only makes sense if it's a point in some space?
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23:51:49 <oerjan> yes.
23:52:12 <oerjan> a differentiable manifold, in particular.
23:52:31 <int-e> FireFly: ANY is the key to really fast image generation :)
23:53:47 <boily> \oren\: like the Russian sushi in Durarara: you have to get used to it.
23:53:55 <int-e> (I have 1187 and 1151 cycle solutions for image test pattern 1 and 2, respectively; I have not compared to others)
23:54:59 <oerjan> ^scramble abcdefghi
23:54:59 <fungot> acegihfdb
23:55:02 <oerjan> ^scramble abcdefghij
23:55:02 <fungot> acegijhfdb
23:55:15 -!- jaboja has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:55:25 <oerjan> ^unscramble abcdefghi
23:55:25 <fungot> aibhcgdfe
23:55:28 <oerjan> ^unscramble abcdefghij
23:55:28 <fungot> ajbichdgef
23:56:10 <oerjan> oh not the same
23:56:37 * oerjan was thinking someone had managed to post a PPCG question which fungot already had the brainfuck answer to
23:56:37 <fungot> oerjan: perhaps their children will be italian, too. could be bugs, i'd rather have a scheme version of core wars.
23:57:24 <boily> fungot: nostril. and stop being sentient.
23:57:24 <fungot> boily: but it needs to recompile over half of the boxes has the wrong time, no
23:58:47 <int-e> actually it should be possible to prove that those cycle counts are optimal; 1186 and 1150 are hard lower bounds anyway)
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