00:10:35 <boily> random question: is there such a thing as a quantum of probability?
00:13:21 <oerjan> not that i've heard of. (assuming you mean something fundamental rather than an arbitrary unit.)
00:13:46 <shachaf> Are reals necessary for probability?
00:14:33 <shachaf> If so, is there some sort of universal property that characterizes them as such?
00:15:03 <lambdabot> ENVA 062250Z 09007KT 040V120 CAVOK 17/08 Q1007 RMK WIND 670FT 15013KT
00:17:46 <oerjan> shachaf: well, you want probabilities to be ordered, invertible, addable (if they're not too large) and multipliable. that probably is enough to fit it in an ordered field. the only thing that would be missing is the archimedean property (i.e. you could have nonstandard probabilities.)
00:18:22 <oerjan> (and you might of course use slightly _less_ than the reals.)
00:18:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lazpeng * New user account
00:21:20 <\oren\> I should start a business selling beyblades as vintage fidget spinners
00:28:48 <wob_jonas> shachaf: dunno. I has previously asked whether reals are important for topology. I still don't have a completely satisfying answer.
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01:09:14 <boily> staaaaff of eeeaaarth ♪
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01:45:34 <HackEgo> Maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin.
01:48:39 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove ‘wisdom/what’: No such file or directory \ Forget what?
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02:45:37 <Sgeo> `stargateuniverselist http://www.blastr.com/2017-6-6/stargate-universe-cliffhanger-finally-be-resolved-new-comic-run
02:45:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: stargateuniverselist: not found
02:51:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[VTFF]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52077&oldid=52074 * Programmer5000 * (+63)
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04:38:53 <Cale> shachaf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-i0JkZnf80
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07:21:23 <shachaf> @tell wob_jonas Well, the closed real interval has the right universal property for defining homotopy, see https://mathoverflow.net/q/92206
07:22:21 <shachaf> oerjan: what about quasiprobabilities and other things
07:23:12 <shachaf> oerjan: also what if you use rationals instead of reals for probabilities
07:23:16 <shachaf> where do you run into trouble twh
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11:41:03 <HackEgo> gaszpacho//gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
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11:55:02 <oerjan> @tell shachaf I know nothing about quasiprobabilities. also, everything beyond rationals starts mattering once you need to solve equations or use integrals. you cannot have normal distributions with them... but there's still probably a strict subset of the reals that suffices in practice.
11:55:21 <oerjan> @tell shachaf * with only them
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12:15:46 <wob_jonas> do we have a roman numeral lookup tool here?
12:17:05 <wob_jonas> shachaf: hmm yes, I think I saw that post
12:19:20 <HackEgo> bin/fromroman \ bin/toroman
12:19:38 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ sub k{my$t;$t=~y/IVXLC/XLCDM/,$t.=("",I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX)[$_]for/./g;$r{$t}=$_;$t}k for s""\$"..4e3;print $r{(shift=~/(\w+)/)[0]},$/
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12:28:20 <HackEgo> and//And is an Intercal unary operator.
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12:36:24 <wob_jonas> ``` toroman echo $[1+$(fromroman XCVI)]
12:36:30 <wob_jonas> ``` toroman $[1+$(fromroman XCVI)]
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12:59:42 * oerjan is reading the iwc forum, and gently reminds wob_jonas that it's "reminds me _of_" -----###
13:00:10 <wob_jonas> oerjan: ah yes, that's a mistake I make all the time
13:00:36 <oerjan> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=10146
13:00:50 <wob_jonas> hopefully people won't be considering it a mistake in a decade or two when we take over
13:02:29 <oerjan> incidentally if i were similarly failing to convert from norwegian, i'd be saying "reminds me on" or "reminds me at"
13:03:29 <wob_jonas> nah, you can't just convert prepositions from one language to another so easily
13:07:14 <wob_jonas> and totally logical: if you want to say you're in a town in Hungarian, you use -ban or -n depending on which town it is, unless it's one of Pécs or Győr in which case you may use the conjugation -ett which doesn't even exist for any other purpose than saying that something is in those towns
13:08:11 <oerjan> (norwegian also uses two different prepositions for towns, i and på)
13:08:45 <oerjan> they may be vaguely like -ban and -n in their basic meaning.
13:10:17 <wob_jonas> they're not vague! -ban is like "in" in English and -n is like "on". they're for marking places inside and over something respectively, and occasionally used for times too
13:11:01 <oerjan> well that's the same with norwegian.
13:11:50 <oerjan> so the "vaguely" is just because it never matches perfectly.
13:12:44 <oerjan> and because i remember hungarian has a 3-way distinction.
13:13:02 <wob_jonas> places in Hungarian are marked in a nice symmetric table of three times three common cases: -tól, -ból, -ról, -nál, -ban, -on, -hoz, -ba, -ra, and these cases are the most common ones borrowed for saying anything other than places, together with a few more common ones like -ig and -nak.
13:13:42 <wob_jonas> apart from those, there are a lot of uncommon cases, some of which are half-dead, and lots of prepositions, most of which are used with accusative case, but a few of them with other cases
13:14:06 <wob_jonas> what case is used for what other than places is completely random, and towns are just crazy
13:14:11 <oerjan> prepositions? not postpositions?
13:14:25 <wob_jonas> no, the rest are prepositions, written before and in a separate word
13:14:45 <wob_jonas> there are only those approx. dozen common postpositions and about a dozen rare postpositions for cases
13:15:23 <oerjan> somehow i had gotten the impression hungarian did more postpositions, but ok
13:15:30 <wob_jonas> -t for object and -val are also common.
13:15:37 <wob_jonas> the postpositions are much more _common_
13:15:46 <wob_jonas> everything that's used commonly gets a postposition
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13:19:27 <wob_jonas> so yes, you're right, all of them are postpositions
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14:07:04 <wob_jonas> There should be a wisdom listing what I hate. I hate wasps, mosquitos, music boxes and other forms of clockwork, raw flour, roman numerals, and the list goes on.
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14:25:12 <wob_jonas> they're stupid and hard to read, just like analog clocks. you have to, like, count tally marks and decide which place they stand for to read them. just use hindu-arabic numerals instead.
14:25:27 <wob_jonas> luckily their use is declining these days
14:26:38 <doesthiswork> would you prefer an analog clock with just one hand?
14:27:19 <wob_jonas> people still use them to mark the districts of Budapest, and I wish they didn't. there's some logic in using roman numerals for that, because street names can start with h-a numerals, and that numeral can be either the whole street name or just part of it, so writing the district number with a h-a numeral without some marker could be ambiguous,
14:28:16 <wob_jonas> (in theory a street name may have to start with a lone letter and a dot, if named from a person whose name starts with such a lone letter, and that could happen to look like a roman numeral, but I don't think there's an example of that in Budapest)
14:29:21 <wob_jonas> (part of the reason for that might be that people won't choose a name that has "I." or "V." as the first word, because that would look like a dynasty number for royalties too and so confusing)
14:31:46 <doesthiswork> do they not use hindu-arabic numerals in budapest?
14:32:12 <wob_jonas> In theory you could use roman numerals as month numbers, but almost nobody seems to do that anymore; and you could use roman numerals to mark the stage (floor) of a building, but people don't do that either so you only see it in old signs.
14:32:44 <doesthiswork> event list wikipedia list of distics in budapest is in roman numerals
14:32:46 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: sure they do: they use h-a numerals for house numbers, postal codes, zip numbers, rarely as a street name or part of a street name, and lots of other things
14:32:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52078&oldid=52072 * Raddish0 * (+61)
14:33:22 <wob_jonas> prices, date and time, quantities, lots of things
14:34:00 <wob_jonas> they're used for basically everything, and roman numerals were used the last century for a few particular things as disambiguation, where a h-a numeral could cause confusion
14:34:25 <wob_jonas> that's why they were used for districts and month numbers and floor numbers
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14:35:06 <wob_jonas> (also roman numerals are used for years but only on ornamental labels on building fronts or statues, and hours ornamentally on clock faces)
14:36:28 <wob_jonas> (those ornamental uses are in a decline too)
14:38:07 <doesthiswork> how do you feel about sumerian numerals for disambiguation
14:39:47 <wob_jonas> no. I want only arabic numerals. if you want them distinctive looking, then put suffixes or prefixes to it or add dots or hyphens in the middle as "magic numbers", which is already what they're doing for lots of namespaces of numbers.
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14:44:42 <wob_jonas> eg. phone numbers start with a plus, car reg plate numbers are of the formats AAA-999 or AAAA-99 or AAAAA-9, passport numbers have the format AA9999999,
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14:46:33 <wob_jonas> driving license and personal ID license numbers have the format AA999999 and 999999AA, non-intl bank account numbers have the format 99999999-99999999-99999999 or 99999999-99999999, there are other government bureaucracy administration stuff numbers that have formats 999-999-999, 9-999999-9999, 9999999999, 99999999-9-99 resp.
14:47:13 <wob_jonas> so if you accidentally supply the wrong number for what's expected, you can generally recognize it from the wrong format. this is a good thing, just like "magic numbers" in digital file formats are.
14:47:39 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: streets in general have names, not numbers, but a few street names are numbers or start with a number
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15:04:22 <Phantom_Hoover> why do you say hindu-arabic numerals on one hand but roman numerals on the other
15:04:43 <wob_jonas> PH: um, those are their common names, aren't they/
15:05:02 <wob_jonas> 1, 2, 3 are h-a numerals, I, II, III are roman numerals
15:05:13 <Phantom_Hoover> 'hindu-arabic' seems longwinded to me and i normally just see them called 'arabic'
15:05:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52079&oldid=52078 * Raddish0 * (+219)
15:05:55 <wob_jonas> and the h-a ones like 1, 2, 3 are in base 10 so they correspond to how you pronounce those numbers, whereas from the roman numerals it's much harder to translate from crazy stuff like XVIII to how you pronounce it in your head, which is why they suck as district numbers
15:06:05 <wob_jonas> yes, but "arabic numeral" is ambiguous
15:08:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52080&oldid=52079 * Raddish0 * (+35)
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15:11:51 <Phantom_Hoover> unicode calls them 'european digits' which seems like a good name to me
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15:12:54 <wob_jonas> I'd like to call them ascii numerals, but that doesn't work either, because the roman numerals are mostly ascii too, with MDCLXI
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15:21:42 <wob_jonas> Ph: I don't think I ever say that. I say "latin script" or "English alphabet" or "ascii letters" or "ascii latin letters" etc
15:21:56 <wob_jonas> "latin alphabet" is similarly somewhat ambiguous
15:22:36 <wob_jonas> there's no single alphabet for the latin script, it varies by language (and sometimes there's even more than one per language), although almost all of them are related and similar,
15:23:06 <Phantom_Hoover> you think 'european numerals' is eurocentric (despite the fact that they absolutely truthfully come from europe) but you think 'english alphabet' is just fine
15:23:29 <wob_jonas> and eventually all derived from the phoenician alphabet through the greek alphabet (which also has various version), and thus a cousin of the cyrillic and hebrew and arabic alphabets too
15:25:29 <wob_jonas> Ph: there's so many alphabets and half of them are arbitrary. for example, the Hungarian alphabet considers "ty" and "dz" and "dzs" and "ly" as single letters (for collation purposes and for Scrabble, but not for crosswords), but "ch" and "kh" as two letters (for collation purposes), for no reason, and it's even worse with the doubled digraphs "ssz
15:25:29 <wob_jonas> " which are collated as if they were hyphenated
15:27:12 <wob_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: do the roman numerals, the greek numerals, and the hebrew numerals come from Europe?
15:27:45 <Phantom_Hoover> why are nerds so obsessed with this sort of really stupid pedantry
15:27:58 <Phantom_Hoover> they're the standard numerals used throughout europe, developed in europe
15:28:28 <wob_jonas> but everyone already uses h-a numerals, so what's wrong with that? too long?
15:28:30 <Phantom_Hoover> why do you then go out of your way to find completely petty problems with the term 'european numerals' for them
15:28:46 <wob_jonas> it's not that the term is wrong, but that there's already an established term
15:28:51 <wob_jonas> everyone calls them hindu-arabic numerals
15:29:12 <Phantom_Hoover> everyone doesn't, as evidenced by me finding the term unfamiliar
15:29:23 <Phantom_Hoover> and anyway i just said i liked 'european numerals' more as a name
15:29:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52081&oldid=46565 * Programmer5000 * (+5) Add link to !!!Batch
15:30:01 <wob_jonas> and I find the term "european numerals" unfamiliar
15:30:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52082&oldid=52081 * Programmer5000 * (-1) Fix
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16:42:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Micro]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52083&oldid=52080 * Raddish0 * (+93) add some more examples
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18:53:09 <\oren\> Hmm, if you looked at what letters were used in recent latin works, e.g. Newton's Principia, would any of the 26 english letters be missing?
18:54:41 <Phantom_Hoover> he does use w as a variable name and in english personal names though
18:58:39 <int-e> @ask oerjan have we seen that sword before? (GG)
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18:58:54 <\oren\> hmm so essentially the alphabet for "modern latin" would be the same as english plus æ I guess.
19:00:04 <\oren\> weirdly, I'm looking and "ae" only occurs in principia in one word, "Aer"
19:00:31 <\oren\> probably because there's no ligature of "Ae"
19:01:30 <\oren\> so æ doesn't count as a letter
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19:29:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52084&oldid=51178 * Programmer5000 * (+147)
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20:54:33 <lambdabot> int-e asked 1h 55m 53s ago: have we seen that sword before? (GG)
20:54:50 <oerjan> @tell int-e not that i remember...
20:56:24 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 1m 22s ago: I know nothing about quasiprobabilities. also, everything beyond rationals starts mattering once you need to solve equations or use integrals. you cannot have normal
20:56:24 <lambdabot> distributions with them... but there's still probably a strict subset of the reals that suffices in practice.
20:56:24 <lambdabot> oerjan said 9h 1m 3s ago: * with only them
20:57:36 <oerjan> int-e: i assumed it had been designed for its particular purpose.
20:57:49 <oerjan> which would make it unlikely to have shown up before.
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21:06:55 <int-e> I had missed the sigil the first time around (2 or 3 weeks ago)
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21:13:19 <int-e> wall of text comic
21:13:41 <int-e> you may recall me complaining about that
21:18:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52085&oldid=52084 * Oerjan * (+94) unsigned
21:19:04 <\oren\> ooh I found a new copypasta
21:19:44 <\oren\> KRAKOW STRONG! REMOVE WARSAW FROM PREMISE!
21:20:04 <\oren\> YOU ARE FAKE CAPITAL OF POLAND YOU ARE WORST CAPITAL OF POLAND! EVEN VIENNA BETTER CAPITAL OF POLAND! YOU ARE A JOKE WITH COMMUNISM YOU ARE RUSSIA NOT POLAND! HAHAHA ASIAN SMELL! KRAKOW HAS KINGS AND KING JADWIGA! WARSAW HAS NOTHING! POPE JAN PAWEŁ ALIF AND STRONG IN KRAKOW WHERE HE FORM! KRAKOW RICH AND POWERFUL THANKS TO JAN PAWEŁ AND JEZUS!
21:20:07 <oerjan> int-e: oh right, i missed that too.
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21:21:14 <\oren\> Apparently someone really likes playing as krakow in eU4
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21:22:19 <oerjan> \oren\: well it's a good name http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/04/28
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21:29:03 <\oren\> https://www.reddit.com/r/eu4/comments/69syjj/theres_a_new_toothpaste_in_town/
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21:53:22 <oerjan> <\oren\> probably because there's no ligature of "Ae" <-- actually, it might be because "Aer" is actually two syllables, not a diphthong.
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