00:03:05 <int-e> hmm, socat crashed, hasn't done that in a while... not feeling happy about that
00:10:32 <boily> int-ello. you managed that how?
00:11:22 <int-e> I mean it involves SSL, but still it should not crash.
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00:12:37 * lambdabot puts on her slapping gloves, and slaps
00:13:08 <boily> lambdie is of the feminine persuasion?
00:14:14 <int-e> and angelic https://wiki.haskell.org/Lambdabot
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00:14:51 <int-e> (I expect a lot of that page is outdated, but I'm linking to it for the avatar.)
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00:16:42 <wob_jonas> oh great. now we can get into that endless internet dispute about whether angels have a gender, where part of the problem is that there are tons of different creatures called angels with different properties (just like with dragons, trolls, fairies, werewolves, etc) but everyone is sure that the version they prefer is the only TRUE angels.
00:17:28 <wob_jonas> also on whether angels have wings, and by extension, whether balrogs have wings, whether balrogs can fly, whether balrogs are creatures of fire, and how large balrogs are
00:17:57 <HackEgo> Balrogs live at the bottom of the world.
00:18:08 <HackEgo> Dragons are fractal creatures of magic, capable of shrinking or expanding to any size. Taneb invented them to live inside his string diagrams, but they prefer to hover around pinheads and feed on angels.
00:18:21 <int-e> no, we don't need any of those
00:18:21 <HackEgo> Vampires are a wizarding myth Professor Lupin invented to make students hate Professor Snape even more, after Professor Snape almost made the students realize he's a werewolf.
00:19:56 <boily> angels are a bitch to be on the receiving end of. flying, buffs your other creatures, hard to get rid of...
00:25:30 <wob_jonas> A dwarf is like an invisible elf. You rarely see one, but it's there to help identify your problem when trouble strikes.
00:27:15 <trn> Not quite esoteric but these days it might be :) I have a public access multics instance up and available via ssh or mosh email@example.com
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00:27:32 <trn> I am almost done with a PL/I gopher server :)
00:28:04 <wob_jonas> multics instance? wow. is it running on actual hardware, or simulated?
00:34:47 <wob_jonas> also, is the ssh daemon itself running on the multics instance?
00:38:04 <wob_jonas> but regardless of the answers, I say wow. a working multics instance is a serious computer archaeology achievement
00:39:21 <imode> didn't they just release the source?
00:39:46 <wob_jonas> imode: even if they did, getting it to actually run is probably nontrivial
00:40:14 <imode> the answer to that would be "it depends". apparently it runs on a simulator.
00:40:57 <imode> real hardware would be entertaining.
00:43:19 <wob_jonas> If you're running it on a simulator, I wonder if you can give it a hundred times more RAM, backing store, and CPU processing power as the historically accurate hardware could ever have.
00:47:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52559&oldid=52557 * LyricLy * (+175)
01:00:28 <quintopia> boily: if you use multiple trello to-do lists, are they collectively your "trellon"?
01:00:52 <boily> I think I prefer trelleaux hth
01:01:30 <quintopia> but that's just pluralizing trello. it's not a collective noun at all!
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01:43:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: "featured" just means it has features hth <-- O KAY
02:05:36 <HackEgo> np-complete//NP-complete is the subset of NP to which all problems in P can be reduced, thus completely solving them.
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02:37:19 * oerjan thinks mroman must be severely confused about dot products.
02:37:45 <HackEgo> ä:Ä is a Swedish geographical feature. \ degenerate:Degenerate things are those that have been featured on the Ellen DeGeneres Show. The subjects of this sui degeneris program include spaghoti sauce, talking spheres of zero volume, and watches without mustard. \ eyebrow:Eyebrows are Taneb's most notable feature. \ intercal:INTERCAL has excelle
02:38:08 <HackEgo> 2/3:ent features for modular program for the enterprise market. \ java:Java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures. \ lua:Lua is an object-oriented programming language that doesn't have any features, but you're smart enough to figure out how to use it anyway. Taneb is written in Lua. \ umlaut:Umlaut is German for "hum aloud", a
02:38:55 <oerjan> `learn The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show.
02:38:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'degeneration': The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show.
02:39:25 <oerjan> `learn The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. See also degenerate.
02:39:27 <HackEgo> Relearned 'degeneration': The degeneration is the generation that watches the Ellen DeGeneres show. See also degenerate.
02:40:13 <HackEgo> 3/3:n important feature of the German language. It is indicated by putting two dots over the vowel of the syllable.
02:42:35 <oerjan> `le/rn Accusative//Only evil people use the accusative.
02:42:36 <HackEgo> Learned 'accusative': Only evil people use the accusative.
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03:22:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> And, don't have, uh, ByteString. <-- Integers have large bytearrays inside, i think you should be able to use that.
03:24:18 <oerjan> (for getting an arbitrary byte sequence to jump to)
03:26:39 <oerjan> . o O ( how come shachaf isn't here, he's always here. )
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03:29:28 <oerjan> not sure if executability would be a problem.
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03:35:55 <shachaf> oerjan: If you can jump into the right offset.
03:36:34 <shachaf> String literals are encoded in UTF-8 too, but I'm not sure how to use that.
03:36:55 <shachaf> And they're in read-only memory, so it should be easier.
03:37:44 <oerjan> you'd have to get to them before they're evaluated into proper lists, i guess..
03:38:42 <oerjan> so, unsafeCoerce a thunk into something that _won't_ get evaluated...
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03:44:43 <zzo38> I think I have finish making MIXPC by now (except the documentation is not finished being written yet). There is no floating-point, although it does include XOR, JAE, JAO, JXE, JXO. I also fixed various mistakes from before, and added a few new things such as the ability to hide the register display (which can be used for games with hidden information, but also makes it execute much faster).
03:45:08 <zzo38> I do not have it available right now but perhaps in next week I can make this program available for download
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03:54:13 <zzo38> (The other thing it doesn't have is paper tape)
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04:25:31 <zzo38> I have implemented J. Stein's "binary gcd algorithm" (described in The Art of Computer Programming, 4.5.2, Algorithm B) in MMIX. I have then afterward looked at the official version and found I did it differently. I did it like this: http://sprunge.us/UaOS
04:26:20 <zzo38> Here is the official version: http://mmix.cs.hm.edu/supplement/4.5.2/euclidb.mms
04:41:28 <zzo38> (I have tested my program and it does work OK)
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06:38:23 <HackEgo> olist 1086: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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06:52:43 <oerjan> hum, i seem to have missed one before
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11:43:40 <HackEgo> tc//Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
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12:13:41 <HackEgo> Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
12:13:49 <HackEgo> Tc is the abbreviation for Technetium, an element so sophisticated that it does not exist naturally.
12:14:03 <HackEgo> post-turing machine//A post-Turing machine is a machine from the post-Turing era.
12:19:06 <Jafet> what about posturing machines
12:23:05 <boily> they will shape the AI rebellion into form.
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13:46:02 <tswett> Here's my favorite topological separation axiom.
13:46:22 <tswett> For every pair of distinct points in the space, there exists a set containing one but not the other.
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14:43:25 <int-e> how would one formulate that in pointless topology?
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16:25:07 <int-e> alercah: because this is #esoteric :P
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16:48:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kaamilj * New user account
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20:04:03 <\oren\> Apparently the plural of dystopia is dystopiai
20:07:18 <shachaf> the plural of which is presumably dystopiaia
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20:41:40 <int-e> I think this falls under "know your audience": http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1966
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21:13:36 <\oren\> https://www.trustwave.com/Company/Technology-Partners/
21:13:58 <\oren\> scroll down to the bottom and right click the trustwave logo
21:15:20 <imode> "copying prohibited by law"
21:15:22 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:15:32 <imode> can I see the law.
21:15:38 -!- augur has joined.
21:17:10 <\oren\> https://www.trustwave.com/Legal-Documents/Modern-Slavery-Statement/
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21:21:17 <zzo38> It is still easy enough to find it in the source anyways
21:21:25 <\oren\> "the Modern Slavery Act 2015". never expected that from Obama
21:21:39 <zzo38> The URL is https://sealserver.trustwave.com/seal_image.php
21:22:56 <int-e> It's a curious claim anyway.
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21:25:01 <tswett_> "... there is a locale of all surjections from natural numbers ... to real numbers .... This locale has no points, since there are no such surjections, but it contains many nontrivial open subspaces ..." https://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/locale
21:28:52 <int-e> It may be a "service mark", buthow, pray, does that prohibit making copies for personal entertainment?
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21:35:23 <int-e> (I'd be more convinced by a DMCA claim :-P)
21:36:31 <Jafet> tswett: did you know that if ZFC is consistent, then it must have a countable model?
21:37:23 <int-e> And it's a fun thing to ponder for a while, in order to resolve the apparent contradiction with the existence of uncountable sets.
21:38:04 <shachaf> tswett_: I learned about locales from _Topology via Logic_ by Vickers.
21:38:09 <shachaf> ...Well, I didn't learn that much.
21:38:22 <int-e> s/apparent/seeming/ for the nitpickers among us
21:38:54 <tswett_> Yep, all consistent first-order theories with countably many axioms have countable models... right?
21:39:07 <shachaf> I should've read that part of the book more thoroughly.
21:39:34 <tswett_> What's more, there's a definable function which takes any consistent first-order theory with countably many axioms, and returns a countable model of it.
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21:40:47 <int-e> (second name in Löwenheim-Skolem, in case it wasn't obvious)
21:41:11 <Jafet> I knew I could count on this channel
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21:41:37 <tswett_> I tend to be kind of a skeptic of infinite stuff, especially involving the axiom of choice.
21:42:12 <tswett_> So if you just say "if it's consistent, it must have a countable model", I'll think, yeah, well, the proof of that probably involves the axiom of choice and all sorts of other set-theoretic abstract nonsense.
21:42:28 <tswett_> There's an *explicitly defined* countable model.
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21:48:39 <Phantom_Hoover> it makes sense when you realise that 'uncountable' just means 'can't construct a bijection to N'
21:50:03 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4l9UgiOLKA
21:50:53 <Phantom_Hoover> "In general, the Löwenheim–Skolem theorem does not hold in stronger logics such as second-order logic."
21:51:18 <Phantom_Hoover> i guess i've never understood what's supposed to be so horrible about second-order logic that it's worth putting up with all the ridiculous bullshit that comes up in first-order logic
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21:54:32 <tswett_> It's not complete. Theories can have consequences which necessarily hold, but which aren't provable.
21:54:39 <int-e> I guess there's some justification for disliking the failure of completeness in second order logic.
21:54:42 <tswett_> And one disadvantage is sufficient. :D
21:55:27 <int-e> In any case I don't know what you mean by "ridiculous bullshit".
21:55:38 <int-e> And that may be the main disagreement.
21:56:55 <tswett_> So lemme go through the Henkin construction here.
21:57:02 <tswett_> Suppose we've got a consistent first-order theory with countably many axioms.
21:57:04 <int-e> It's also not true that people don't use second or higher order logics; it's just that for the foundations of set theory, first order logic is sufficient.
21:57:33 <int-e> and then you can build models of higher logics in there, so everybody ought to be happy
21:58:11 <alercah> I used second order logic in my master's thesis a lot
21:59:03 <tswett_> So, first, we "maximize" the theory.
21:59:17 <tswett_> If there's a statement which is consistent with the theory, but not in the theory, we add it.
21:59:26 <tswett_> Repeat until all such statements are exhausted.
22:00:52 <int-e> dym Herbrand? *wonders*
22:01:16 <int-e> Probably my fault though.
22:01:52 <tswett_> Next, we "populate" the theory. For each axiom of the form "there exists x such that ...", we add a constant and assert that that constant is an example of an axiom.
22:02:04 <Phantom_Hoover> <int-e> In any case I don't know what you mean by "ridiculous bullshit".
22:04:02 <int-e> Sure but why is that a bad thing? It's a brain teaser that helps you get the separation of meta level and logic level straight.
22:04:37 <tswett_> "Population" is not recursive; if population adds a new axiom of the form "there exists y such that ...", you don't add another constant and another axiom for that.
22:06:55 <tswett_> Then you maximize again, populate again, maximize again, populate again, and so on forever.
22:08:13 <tswett_> Now you've got a theory that has two interesting properties.
22:08:29 <tswett_> First, every statement consistent with the theory is an axiom of the theory.
22:09:21 <tswett_> Second, given any provable statement of the form "there exists x such that ...", there's an axiom giving an example of that statement.
22:11:49 <tswett_> The set of all constants in this theory is a model of the original theory!
22:17:36 <\oren\> GENRAL JON KELLY IS NEW CHEIF OF STAFF
22:18:06 <int-e> please don't shout
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22:18:53 <tswett_> Hmm. So a locale is just the opposite of a frame...
22:19:13 <tswett_> In the sense that a locale is equivalent to a frame, but a morphism of locales A -> B is a morphism of frames B -> A.
22:20:48 <shachaf> A complete Heyting algebra is also the same thing, but has yet another notion of morphism.
22:38:16 <tswett_> So apparently the cofinite topology on a non-finite set is not sober.
22:38:49 <tswett_> Hmmmm. So the cofinite topology produces a locale... the cofinite locale, I guess?
22:39:11 <tswett_> So what's a "concrete point" in this locale, then...
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22:39:17 <tswett_> It's a collection of open sets such that...
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22:40:24 <tswett_> If a set is in the collection, all bigger sets are also in the collection...
22:41:16 <tswett_> As is the intersection of any two sets in the collection?...
22:41:20 <shachaf> Can you figure out a point-free definition of "manifold"? twh
22:42:20 <tswett_> Now wait, what's a morphism of locales A -> B.
22:42:31 <tswett_> It maps open sets in B to open sets in A.
22:42:55 <tswett_> Subsets must remain subsets.
22:43:20 <tswett_> Finite intersections must be preserved exactly. Arbitrary unions, too.
22:43:40 <tswett_> Of course, "sets" need not be sets at all.
22:43:46 <tswett_> The term is just a mnemonic.
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22:44:30 <tswett_> So a "concrete point" in this locale is...
22:44:51 <tswett_> A collection of open sets such that if a set is in the collection, all bigger sets are also in the collection...
22:45:10 <tswett_> ...the intersection of finitely many sets is in the collection iff all of those sets are in the collection...
22:45:23 <tswett_> ...and the union of any number of sets is in the collection iff at least one of those sets is in the collection.
22:46:36 <tswett_> Well, what if I think I can think of a concrete point in the cofinite locale on Z? Namely... the number 44.
22:46:49 <tswett_> So my alleged "concrete point" is the collection of all cofinite sets containing 44.
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22:50:35 <tswett_> Doesn't every non-empty locale admit at least two concrete points, one of them containing all open sets and the other containing no open sets?
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22:52:12 <tswett_> ...where "non-empty" means something like "having at least two open sets"...
23:04:15 <tswett_> Let's talk about my nasty case of anti-realism.
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23:04:40 <tswett_> I don't really believe that the word "group" really refers to a real thing.
23:04:58 <tswett_> But I do admit that there are ways of specifying a group.
23:05:18 <tswett_> One way to specify a group is to give a finite presentation of it.
23:05:45 <tswett_> Likewise, I don't consider the concept of a category to be a real concept, but I admit that there are ways of specifying categories, too.
23:05:59 <tswett_> You can, likewise, specify a category by giving a finite presentation of it.
23:06:11 <tswett_> Now, consider the category of groups.
23:06:16 <tswett_> I just specified a category, didn't I?
23:06:35 <tswett_> The phrase "the category of groups" seems like a perfectly valid specification of a category.
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23:07:34 <tswett_> But the category of groups isn't finitely presented.
23:07:57 <tswett_> Or, here's an even better example: the category of sets.
23:08:01 <tswett_> That's not finitely presented, either.
23:10:44 <tswett_> So how can I *specify* the category of groups?
23:10:53 <tswett_> I can just write down the definition of a group and say, "it's the category of these things".
23:11:10 <tswett_> But that's not very satisfying.
23:13:32 <tswett_> There's a particular finite product category, the syntactic category of groups, Con(Grp).
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23:14:34 <tswett_> A group is just a functor Con(Grp) -> Set which preserves finite products.
23:14:53 <tswett_> And Con(Grp) is a finitely generated finite product category, of course.
23:18:09 <tswett_> The category of groups is just the category of natural transformations of these functors.
23:21:11 <Sgeo> If I want to make a trivial Windows 3.1 executable, is Open Watcom my best option?
23:22:57 <tswett_> I sure don't know how to make Windows 3.1 executables.
23:23:02 <imode> doesn't djgpp work with 3.1?
23:23:50 <imode> yeah it supports 3.1
23:24:00 <Sgeo> As a target or host?
23:24:23 <fizzie> As far as I know, DJGPP proper is just DOS.
23:24:25 <Sgeo> I need to make a substitute shell for PROGMAN.EXE
23:24:28 <fizzie> http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/v2faq/faq3_6.html
23:24:41 <fizzie> "Currently, you can only run DJGPP programs under Windows as DOS apps (i.e. inside the DOS Box). If you need to write true Windows apps, you will have to use auxiliary tools or another compiler."
23:24:57 <Sgeo> Because Internet Archive's Win3.1 emulator replaces PROGMAN.EXE in SYSTEM.INI with a target program
23:25:24 <imode> what's your end goal?
23:28:13 <Sgeo> Get Worlds Chat Gold running in the browser.
23:28:40 <Sgeo> Worlds Chat Gold's main executable requires an argument...
23:29:05 <fizzie> There's a copy of Borland C++ 4.5 on one of those CDs you used to get glued on the covers of PC magazines in the 90s.
23:29:07 <imode> and you can't edit the system.ini?
23:29:27 <Sgeo> imode, I can edit system.ini, in fact that's what the files in IA's copy of Win3.1 does.
23:29:49 <imode> so if it replaces PROGMAN.EXE with <your_name>.exe, why not just append the command line arguments.
23:29:55 <Sgeo> But I think Windows 3.1 doesn't like it if you try to give anything other than a single executable for shell=
23:30:12 <imode> how about a batch file.
23:30:25 <Sgeo> It didn't work
23:30:37 <Sgeo> I think it complained about PROGMAN.EXE, but don't fully remember
23:30:47 <imode> any specific error messages?
23:31:27 <imode> I'm almost dead sure that there's more than a dozen programs up on the archive that take command line parameters.
23:31:36 <fizzie> Can you use an existing program that's meant to be used as a win3.1 shell?
23:33:21 <imode> Sgeo: dare I ask, have you tried putting quotations around the whole string?
23:34:59 <imode> http://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=23913
23:35:07 <tswett_> I'm gonna go hang with myself in #tswett a bit and continue talking about category theory.
23:35:42 <Sgeo> "I suppose you can do this with a custom SYSTEM.INI. Rather than having it open the default PROGMAN.EXE (Program Manager) using the "shell=" setting, you could have it open the game instead, effectively replacing the Program Manager shell with the game, turning Win3.1 into a single-task system which will close as soon as its shell (the game) terminates. "
23:35:50 <Sgeo> This is exactly what following IA standards does.
23:37:38 <imode> the only way I could help you is if I had a win3.1 install.
23:37:57 <Sgeo> https://cors.archive.org/cors/emularity_win31/win31.zip
23:38:17 <Sgeo> I don't think IA necessarily wants people downloading and using that directly
23:38:17 <imode> cool, and the program you want on it?
23:39:01 <Sgeo> http://jedi.servequake.com/files1/Worlds/worldsgold.zip
23:39:15 <imode> I will try my darndest.
23:39:20 <imode> because I have nothing to do while this code compiles.
23:41:34 <imode> ah. so dosbox calls runapp with a command, which sets the ini option and then runs windows, which runs the shell.
23:46:36 <imode> Sgeo: so is D: supposed to be where my windows install is? and C: is where the app is?
23:47:28 <imode> k, well I managed to launch the setup.
23:48:44 <Sgeo> The command to start the program once it's installed is C:\WORLDS\CHAT\BIN\ACER522.EXE C:\WORLDS\CHAT\SHELGOLD.PAC
23:48:55 <Sgeo> I think from C:\WORLDS\CHAT\ directory
23:49:55 <imode> remind me how to release my mouse cursor from the window.
23:50:18 <zzo38> In DOSBOX you push middle button to grab/ungrab mouse
23:53:53 <imode> OVSF3: Error opening C:\WORLDS\CHAT\BIN\ACER522.BAL/START.inf
23:54:53 <imode> looks like a mistargeted directory.
23:56:52 <Sgeo> "OVSF3: Error opening" is in ACER522.EXE
23:57:26 <Sgeo> Trying to compile my program, it says undefined symbol execl_