←2017-07-31 2017-08-01 2017-08-02→ ↑2017 ↑all
00:27:41 <fizzie> `unidecode ߷
00:27:42 <HackEgo> ​[U+07F7 NKO SYMBOL GBAKURUNEN]
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01:04:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Periapsis * New user account
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01:15:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52610&oldid=52602 * Periapsis * (+247)
01:15:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52611&oldid=52437 * Periapsis * (+16) /* Brainfuck derivatives */
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01:38:08 <Sgeo> Is this language any good? https://winworldpc.com/product/actor
01:39:18 <Sgeo> "Actor is an object oriented Smalltalk-like programming language for Windows 3.1.
01:39:18 <Sgeo> Interestingly, an earlier version of Actor ran on Windows 2.1!"
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01:45:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainGuck]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52612 * Periapsis * (+694) Created page with "BrainGuck is an esoteric language created by [[User:Periapsis]]. It was inspired by [https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck#Language_overview BrainFuck]. It adds a few extra comm..."
01:51:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainGuck]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52613&oldid=52612 * Periapsis * (+0)
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02:31:00 <shachaf> `smlist 455
02:31:01 <HackEgo> smlist 455: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy Cale
02:31:08 <Cale> ooh
02:31:40 <shachaf> Cale: you're supposed to ooh over olists
02:32:02 <shachaf> Super Mega Comics℠
02:32:10 <shachaf> Super Mega℠
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02:32:26 <Cale> What is olist?
02:32:32 <shachaf> `? olist
02:32:33 <HackEgo> olist is update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
02:33:01 <Cale> ah, I haven't gotten into that one yet
02:33:21 <shachaf> It's a good time for it!
02:33:53 <shachaf> It's just you have to read past the first hundred or so before it turns into much of anything.
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02:43:07 <shachaf> `randquote Cale
02:43:24 <HackEgo> 1116) <zzo38> I do sometimes work on Linux computer. I think it is set to en.UTF-8 by default although on my account I have changed it to the C locale, disabled Unicode translation, and loaded a CP437 font. <zzo38> This improves the operation of the system.
02:43:43 <shachaf> `randquote <Cale>
02:43:44 <HackEgo> No output.
02:43:48 <shachaf> @quote Cale
02:43:48 <lambdabot> Cale says: One can create powerful abstractions in C++ in much the same way that a woman can produce a child. It's possible, and people do it, but it takes hours of labour and is extremely painful.
02:44:13 <shachaf> Cale: Do you like the new C++ metaclasses proposal?
02:46:17 <Cale> I dunno, I kinda stopped caring about how good/shitty C++ is.
02:46:48 <Cale> It's probably better just not to touch it at all.
02:46:57 <shachaf> This new proposal is wonderfully complex.
02:47:03 <Cale> For fear that you can only make things worse
02:47:04 <shachaf> C++ is going to be so complicated.
02:47:07 <shachaf> It's great.
02:47:09 <Cale> haha
02:47:28 <shachaf> Anyway there are still not many competitor to C++
02:47:41 <shachaf> There's a lot of software that I'd probably still use C++ to write today?
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03:00:30 <shachaf> Cale: I wish I understood the reals. :-(
03:01:12 <Cale> shachaf: What would it mean to understand them?
03:01:28 <shachaf> I'm not sure!
03:01:41 <shachaf> I just think they're a much more mysterious and fundamental object than I gave them credit for in the past.
03:02:29 <shachaf> Cale: any opinions on https://www.facebook.com/slbkbs/posts/1540808232616365 twh
03:03:53 <Cale> That question makes me think to mention this quirky strategy for proving the reals are uncountable
03:04:25 <shachaf> (See also the comments, which apparently you have to click the link to see.)
03:08:35 <Cale> Let S be an arbitrary subset of [0,1] and define a two-player game as follows.
03:08:47 <Cale> The first player picks a number 0 < a_1 < 1
03:08:59 <Cale> and the second player picks a number a_1 < b_1 < 1
03:09:14 <Cale> and thereafter, the players pick numbers between the previous two selected numbers, i.e.
03:09:26 <Cale> a_(n-1) < a_n < b_(n-1)
03:09:26 <Cale> and
03:09:42 <Cale> a_n < b_n < b_(n-1)
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03:10:18 <Cale> Since the sequence of a_n is monotone increasing and bounded, it has a limit L. The first player wins if L is in S.
03:10:52 <Cale> If S is countable, then the second player has a winning strategy: pick b_n to be s_n whenever that is a valid move, and to play a random move otherwise
03:11:11 <Cale> If s_n wasn't a valid move, then it's already outside the interval in which the limit must occur
03:11:36 <Cale> and the limit of the sequence must be strictly less than b_n, so playing s_n as b_n ensures that the limit is not s_n for any n
03:11:48 <Cale> But if S is [0,1], then the first player always wins
03:12:09 <Cale> So [0,1] is uncountable
03:12:22 <shachaf> What's s_n?
03:12:44 <Cale> Ah, S = {s_1,s_2,...} under the assumption it's countable
03:13:00 <Cale> Sorry, left that out
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03:18:59 <oerjan> the first player would have a winning strategy if the _complement_ of S is countable, i think.
03:20:06 <oerjan> in pretty much the same way.
03:21:15 <oerjan> gah what's up with internet...
03:21:22 * oerjan goes to restart router
03:22:59 <Cale> right
03:24:50 <oerjan> hm that didn't help, still no connection to PPCG
03:25:24 <shachaf> Cale: Which properties of the reals do you need for this?
03:26:50 <shachaf> Totally ordered, Dedekind-complete?
03:26:54 <shachaf> Well, that's not enough.
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03:30:17 <oerjan> high tech primitive solutions
03:32:53 <alercah> shachaf: that defines the reals though
03:33:00 <alercah> shachaf: well, that and that they are a field
03:33:24 <shachaf> "that they are a field" is a short phrase that has a lot of complexity.
03:33:54 <alercah> well, yes
03:34:04 <alercah> and in particular they are a totally ordered field
03:34:05 <shachaf> Did you see my post above?
03:34:25 <alercah> I don't have any special insight
03:34:56 <shachaf> "The real line ⟨ℝ,<⟩ is (up to isomorphism) the unique nonempty, separable, complete, dense, endless total order."
03:35:23 <shachaf> Which of those properties are used in Cale's game?
03:35:43 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess a lot of them.
03:37:34 <oerjan> not the endless one, i guess.
03:37:52 <shachaf> Cale's proof isn't even about R, it's about [0,1]
03:38:08 <shachaf> So that one isn't necessary.
03:38:50 <shachaf> What's separability again?
03:39:01 <oerjan> hm which of those properties isn't satisfied by a single point space...
03:39:10 <oerjan> oh.
03:39:17 <oerjan> that's the only one you need endless for.
03:39:25 <oerjan> to show that it has more than one point.
03:41:28 <shachaf> Well, [0,1] isn't endless. How do you characterize a potentially-closed real interval?
03:42:25 <oerjan> i think dropping endless gives all of them, plus the single point.
03:42:56 <alercah> shachaf: separable = contains countable dense subset
03:43:21 <alercah> I don't know why it's called separable
03:44:24 <shachaf> Ah, right, like Q in R
03:46:25 <alercah> yep
03:46:38 <alercah> trying to figure out why separable is necessary
03:48:16 <shachaf> https://mathoverflow.net/a/43165 gives an example
03:54:44 <oerjan> i'm not sure separable is necessary for the proof.
03:57:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52614&oldid=52610 * Phi * (+160)
03:59:51 <alercah> I don't think it is
04:00:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52615&oldid=52614 * PhiNotPi * (+203)
04:24:32 <myname> koenigl: https://gitlab.brokenpipe.de/stettberger/avremu
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04:33:47 <oerjan> ooh, genuine spammers are back on the wiki...
04:34:14 <shachaf> I bet I would be good at spamming the wiki.
04:34:26 <shachaf> I wonder how much I can get for it.
04:34:29 <oerjan> probably. for a while.
04:34:51 <oerjan> (it didn't get through the new filter.)
04:35:22 <shachaf> oerjan: how much will you pay me not to become an evil spammer and ruin the wiki for everyone twh
04:37:10 <oerjan> i'll delay banning you for up to a week hth
04:38:32 <imode> does anybody know of any papers covering a dynamic succinct linked list implementation?
04:38:43 <imode> the closest I can get is binary trees and squinting really hard.
04:38:52 <shachaf> What's a succinct linked list?
04:39:02 <shachaf> That seems kind of tricky.
04:39:35 <oerjan> `? succinct
04:39:36 <HackEgo> succinct? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
04:39:56 <imode> shachaf: lists that contain either empty lists or atoms that take up an amount of bits close to the minimum to represent them.
04:40:03 <oerjan> `dowg succinct
04:40:06 <imode> but still remain usable.
04:40:10 <HackEgo> No output.
04:40:16 <shachaf> imode: But they still have pointers between nodes?
04:40:22 <imode> nope.
04:40:51 <imode> I came up with a static version a while back that can fit a lot within a single machine word.
04:41:00 <imode> but now I'm searching for a dynamic version.
04:41:09 <shachaf> What's the difference between succinct linked lists and succinct sequences?
04:41:24 <shachaf> Do they support sharing nodes or something?
04:41:47 <imode> mmm. alright, bear with me now.
04:42:02 <imode> say you have a list like [[],[],[]].
04:42:40 <imode> how would you encode that so you conserve on space while retaining the same operations.
04:42:55 <imode> for traversal. not modification.
04:43:01 <shachaf> A list of lists?
04:43:15 <imode> yep. just as an example.
04:43:23 <shachaf> Is this an arbitrary tree or only depth 2?
04:43:49 <imode> any arbitrary list consisting of either nested lists or empty lists.
04:44:17 <shachaf> I would call that a tree. Where a tree is defined as a list of trees.
04:44:25 <imode> sure.
04:44:38 <shachaf> Anyway this is the old balanced parentheses thing, right?
04:44:44 <imode> correctamundo.
04:44:46 <shachaf> What makes these linked lists?
04:45:10 <imode> closest two words I have for something like this.
04:45:47 <imode> could just use 'list'.
04:46:11 <shachaf> Why would you call a tree a list?
04:46:12 <imode> anyway, yeah, this is the nested parens problem. store opening and closing parens as bits.
04:46:20 <shachaf> This is the least fixed point of lists.
04:46:43 <imode> "why would you call a tree of list."
04:46:47 <imode> *a list.
04:47:02 <imode> because... a list is a list of values, each of which may also be lists.
04:47:15 <imode> not sure why you're getting hung up on that.
04:47:54 <imode> if you wanted me to specify "right-heavy binary trees" I could.
04:49:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Kutta]] with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
04:49:38 <imode> anyway, with the binary representation of a tree, it's hard to do arbitrary inserts without lots of operations being flung around at once. so I was wondering if there was a more dynamic method of storing them.
04:54:15 <oerjan> imode: us haskellers get hung up on that because of all the nested "lists" that won't pass type checking as lists in haskell because they're actually trees hth
04:54:41 <oerjan> (i forget, were you from PPCG)
04:54:48 <imode> I am not. :P
04:55:04 <oerjan> because there are quite a number of such challenges there.
04:55:17 <imode> nah. just a dude doing research.
04:55:36 <shachaf> imode: How much overhead are you willing to accept?
04:55:57 <imode> shachaf: for what? a dynamic representation?
04:56:01 <shachaf> You said "succinct" so I guess you want Z + o(Z)
04:56:13 <imode> yuh. also, I already have an encoding for static trees.
04:56:26 <imode> always saves one bit over the traditional parens representation.
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04:56:57 <imode> just wondering about what a convenient alternative is for trees that support arbitrary insertion/manipulation.
05:00:10 <shachaf> I don't know much about dynamic succinct data structures unfortunately. I'd like to know more.
05:00:45 <shachaf> But at least I understand the question now.
05:00:47 <shachaf> I don't think it has anything to do with linked lists (I think linked lists are lists where each node has a link pointer to the next node).
05:01:03 <imode> shachaf: you can replace linked list with "collections of cons cells". :P
05:01:41 <imode> but yeah, trees work.
05:01:47 <shachaf> But this has even less to do with binary trees than it does with lists.
05:02:02 <imode> not.. really.
05:02:16 <imode> considering they're all equal in representation. if you think not, ask a lisper. :P
05:02:42 <doesthiswork> Here's a exoteric reduct game http://www.therottingcartridge.com/games/programming/
05:03:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * PhiNotPi * uploaded "[[File:Qftarch01.png]]"
05:03:51 <shachaf> @wn exoteric
05:03:52 <lambdabot> *** "exoteric" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
05:03:52 <lambdabot> exoteric
05:03:52 <lambdabot> adj 1: suitable for the general public; "writings of an exoteric
05:03:52 <lambdabot> nature" [ant: {esoteric}]
05:04:28 <shachaf> doesthiswork: TG
05:05:40 <doesthiswork> Ferdinand-Tönnies-Gesellschaft ?
05:06:29 <shachaf> Too Good
05:07:23 <doesthiswork> axtually I'm juxt bad at typeing
05:07:53 <shachaf> What are these broken keys?
05:08:18 <shachaf> Booleans?
05:08:28 <doesthiswork> yeah, false booleans
05:09:25 <shachaf> I guess the pink thing is (==) and doesn't allow function arguments.
05:09:41 <oerjan> 🎜 Take these broken keys. And learn to type again. 🎜
05:10:46 <shachaf> Does this introduce callCC later?
05:11:07 <doesthiswork> yeah, once you unlock the hidden levels
05:12:19 <shachaf> Ah, 19 was the first slightly tricky one.
05:13:32 <shachaf> Did you make this?
05:14:00 <doesthiswork> no I found it on LTU
05:16:11 <shachaf> doesthiswork: You should extend it for linear types.
05:18:42 <doesthiswork> that would be interesting
05:20:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52617&oldid=52609 * Btiffin2017 * (+1769) /* Instructions (including Befunge-93 commands) */
05:22:14 <oerjan> shachaf: she'd be more the vicereine, i should think.
05:22:54 <oerjan> hm should that be reyne
05:23:03 <shachaf> oerjan: am i missing a pun twh
05:23:16 <oerjan> no, just a gender hth
05:23:45 <shachaf> are you missing a pun twh
05:23:52 <oerjan> probably.
05:24:23 <shachaf> it's not a very complicated one
05:24:39 <oerjan> i assumed you were just going from vicenarian.
05:24:54 <oerjan> which isn't much of a pun. and not even cognate, i suspect.
05:25:05 <shachaf> assume again
05:25:08 <oerjan> or wait, maybe it is.
05:27:13 <oerjan> nope, doesn't seem to be cognate.
05:27:39 <oerjan> ...
05:28:28 <oerjan> i cannot in good conscience swat for a pun that took me that long, sorry.
05:28:51 <shachaf> What!
05:28:56 <shachaf> How about the pan?
05:31:02 <oerjan> i'm afraid it doesn't pan out, either.
05:32:45 <oerjan> `? decadent
05:32:46 <HackEgo> a decadent is a ten-pronged rake
05:33:02 <oerjan> `slwd decadent//s,.,A,;s,$,.,
05:33:04 <HackEgo> decadent//A decadent is a ten-pronged rake.
05:33:08 <shachaf> I knew it.
05:33:43 <oerjan> but did you manage to make a profit from your inside knowledge?
05:34:00 <shachaf> No, I don't play golf.
05:34:14 <oerjan> shocking
05:38:47 <shachaf> doesthiswork: How do you unlock the hidden levels?
05:39:57 <doesthiswork> you invoke the continuation and restore to level 5 with continuations enabled
05:40:39 <shachaf> Oh, so you were joking? :-(
05:41:20 <doesthiswork> I'm sorry but I was, I'm going to design some levels and suggest continuations to andru
05:42:04 <doesthiswork> http://www.cs.cornell.edu/andru/
05:44:37 <imode> that was a fun game.
05:57:58 <\oren\> how is the bitcoin fork going?
06:09:28 <\oren\> Are graphics cards going to become affordable again
06:12:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QFTASM]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52618 * PhiNotPi * (+6860) created page
06:13:07 <\oren\> find out in 7 hours, 7 minutes and 7 seconds!
06:13:55 <\oren\> https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/launch?iso=20170801T1220&p0=1440&msg=Bitcoin+Cash+Hardfork
06:14:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QFTASM]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52619&oldid=52618 * PhiNotPi * (-2) fixed link format
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07:21:00 <zzo38> Do you know this algorithm for converting a number into decimal? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Decimal_numbers
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07:25:43 <imode> why not just use BCD. :P
07:27:28 <zzo38> Mainly for cases where conversion is needed. For many uses, BCD (or base 100 may be better, especially for Famicom which has no decimal mode) can be very helpful, but sometimes you will need conversion (such as if implementing Z-machine, for example).
07:27:57 <imode> how so? packed BCD is pretty standard.
07:29:11 <zzo38> Famicom and NES doesn't support the packed BCD arithmetic of 6502; that flag will be ignored (it still exists though, it just doesn't do anything).
07:29:43 <imode> oh shit, yeah. forgot about that.
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07:30:09 <imode> man it has been a while..
07:30:25 * imode looks at the last accessed date on his old NESASM...
07:31:52 <zzo38> Which is what date?
07:32:48 <imode> January 13th, 2011.
07:33:02 <zzo38> OK
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07:54:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52620&oldid=52617 * Btiffin2017 * (+0) /* Instructions, correct the stack pictures */
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08:28:03 <\oren\> there will, in less than 5 hours, be two variant coins: Bitcoin Core, and Bitcoin Cash
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09:08:00 <Jafet> `? bitcoin
09:08:02 <HackEgo> bitcoins are coins that have been drilled through with a bit, and can be strung together in long chains. This practice dates to ancient China, and the Chinese remain experts in bitcoin manufacturing. A chain can support up to 21 million coins before breaking.
09:15:50 <izabera> why do large companies care about being influential in standard committees?
09:16:07 <izabera> like google and facebook
09:16:11 <izabera> why do they even care?
09:19:32 <Jafet> in IBM's case, an ultimately futile struggle to stem the tide of trigraph-haters
09:24:25 <izabera> hah
09:26:17 <Jafet> in any case, it's rather cheap influence compared to, say, congressional lobbying
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14:11:41 <wob_jonas> "<doesthiswork> Here's a exoteric reduct game" => oh, will this become the next toy everyone in #esoteric tries, like that euclides compass and line game last time?
14:12:02 <wob_jonas> I still haven't figured out how to do the pentagon in 10 steps
14:12:13 <doesthiswork> I really like that ancient greek geometry game
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14:21:47 <wob_jonas> (trying that reduct game) huh what? I don't understand
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14:23:55 <wob_jonas> I don't understand how this game works
14:24:02 <wob_jonas> maybe it will become clear later
14:26:49 <wob_jonas> ok, now I'm even more confused
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14:48:53 <wob_jonas> well I still don't understand what this game is about, even after beating lots of levels
14:49:51 <doesthiswork> I thought it was about arbitrary changes in notation
14:50:56 <wob_jonas> doesthiswork: maybe
14:53:42 <Cale> I understand what it's about
14:53:51 <Cale> It's basically like weird manual lambda calculus
14:54:19 <wob_jonas> Cale: but where's the lambda calculus part? I've seen lambdas, but no application expression.
14:55:05 <Cale> You do application by hand by dropping things into the lambdas
14:55:26 <wob_jonas> yes, but there's no expression that does application. you can't have lambda calculus without that.
14:55:47 <wob_jonas> or at least, I haven't encountered such an expression up to where I'm at
14:55:58 <wob_jonas> and I'm playing level 69 now
14:58:18 <wob_jonas> wait what?
15:01:02 <wob_jonas> I'm at the end of the game, and I still don't understand it
15:01:49 <wob_jonas> I just don't get the point
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15:04:26 <Cale> wob_jonas: I think the main thing which is confusing there is that you can't just leave something sitting in the input of a lambda without having it automatically reduce
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15:06:29 <wob_jonas> Maybe ais523 can make sense of it
15:06:44 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
15:06:54 <wob_jonas> `? euclid
15:06:56 <HackEgo> euclid? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
15:07:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: context?
15:08:09 <ais523> or am I going to have to read the logs? :-(
15:08:50 <wob_jonas> ais523: doesthiswork brought up this game thingy http://www.therottingcartridge.com/games/programming/
15:08:50 <ais523> Jafet: (re Brainfudge) I'm not sure that counts; at least, it's fairly different from what I had in mind
15:09:00 <wob_jonas> I played through the 72 levels, but still don't understand what it's about
15:09:06 <ais523> wob_jonas: can't really follow links like that at work
15:09:11 <ais523> I can have a look tomorrow, perhaps?
15:09:23 <wob_jonas> sure
15:09:26 <Cale> wob_jonas: I don't know if it's about anything more than what is apparent
15:09:57 <wob_jonas> well, I guess it does say "prototype" at the bottom
15:10:01 <wob_jonas> so maybe he'll change it later
15:10:13 <ais523> on the subject of programming games, I used to like Rubicon (which is based on an esolang, http://esolangs.org/wiki/RUBE)
15:10:18 <ais523> but I haven't played it in ages
15:10:34 <ais523> being written as a Java applet isn't great for modern-day computers
15:10:36 <wob_jonas> ais523: I mentioned that euclid game that we played on this channel some years ago
15:10:54 <wob_jonas> you know, the one about how to make a regular pentagon in ten of the game's steps, which I couldn't solve
15:11:28 <ais523> oh, is it a geometry game?
15:11:40 <ais523> hmm, is geometry somehow Turing-complete?
15:11:47 <wob_jonas> no, it's not a geometry game
15:12:02 <wob_jonas> it just reminds me because it's a meme game on web someone thrown into #esoteric
15:12:18 <wob_jonas> and the same sort of abstract geeky game
15:12:39 <ais523> I get really annoyed by the classification "meme game"
15:12:55 <ais523> people act like a game that becomes suddenly popular is necessarily bad as a result
15:13:00 <wob_jonas> no
15:13:02 <ais523> kind-of like hipsterism except it's mainstream
15:13:09 <wob_jonas> I mean it was popular on #esoteric
15:13:13 <wob_jonas> and I'm not saying it's bad
15:13:24 <wob_jonas> well, I guess I am
15:13:24 <ais523> right
15:13:27 <wob_jonas> they are bad
15:13:36 <ais523> people normally use the phrase "meme game" to dismiss a game that's had a recent surge in popularity, though
15:13:50 <wob_jonas> but it's not bad because it's popular, but more like it's popular despite that it's bad, which is why I call it a meme game
15:14:04 <wob_jonas> yes, I am dismissing it, but not because it's popular
15:14:33 <ais523> right
15:14:38 <ais523> you're dismissing it, and it also happens to be popular?
15:15:05 <wob_jonas> yes
15:15:26 <wob_jonas> and I'm dismissing it more than the geometry game, because I can't make sense of what it's about
15:16:14 <ais523> oh, "<ais523> oh, is it a geometry game" was referring to the euclid thing, not the earlier topic of conversation
15:16:19 <ais523> I need to be more precise in my pronouns
15:16:36 <ais523> the earlier game I can't really discuss because I have basically zero information about it and can't take a look at it directly until tomorrow
15:17:50 <wob_jonas> sure
15:18:49 <ais523> well, not quite zero information, I know that a few #esotericers don't understand it, an URL, and the number of levels it has
15:19:32 <Cale> I understand it
15:19:47 <Cale> I don't know what it is that wob_jonas is saying he doesn't understand about it. It's fairly straightforward.
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15:44:24 <wob_jonas> by the way, ICFP contest http://events.inf.ed.ac.uk/icfpcontest2017/ starts in less tha n3 days
15:44:32 <wob_jonas> I think that's on topic for #esoteric
15:46:40 <ais523> definitely
15:46:43 <ais523> it should be in topic, not just on topic
15:46:55 <ais523> to reduce the number of people who miss it
15:47:03 <wob_jonas> good idea
15:47:55 <wob_jonas> and still no news about IOCCC
15:49:28 <int-e> bad timing: http://www.cade-26.info/
15:50:14 <int-e> but I guess it just happens that both the ICFP contest and CADE are one month before ICFP.
15:50:38 <wob_jonas> int-e: they scheduled one of the previous ICFP contests at the same time as a Harry Potter book release, making it a bad time for many people, even though the date for the latter was known ages ago.
15:51:04 <ais523> I might or might not participate
15:51:15 <ais523> participating will depend on a) me remembering to participate, b) me liking the task
15:51:32 <ais523> when I've participated in the past it's been solo, depending on what the task is it might make sense to get a #esoteric team together
15:52:27 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: bimetal prismack | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | ICFP contest starting on 2017-08-01.
15:52:43 <ais523> at 12 pm UTC, annoyingly
15:52:48 <wob_jonas> ais523: yes, these days they're increasingly making the task such that it's harder and harder to participate
15:52:50 <ais523> that means I'll miss the first few hours due to work
15:52:58 <wob_jonas> um
15:53:03 <wob_jonas> harder and harder to participate alone
15:53:14 <int-e> wait, 08-01?
15:53:22 <wob_jonas> uh wait
15:53:22 <ais523> the UMIX challenge was very parallelisable
15:53:27 <ais523> int-e: wob_jonas got the wrong date
15:53:27 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: bimetal prismack | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | ICFP contest starting on 2017-07-01.
15:54:00 <wob_jonas> no wait
15:54:03 <wob_jonas> um
15:54:05 <int-e> 2017-08-04, I'd guess?
15:54:11 -!- wob_jonas has set topic: bimetal prismack | http://esolangs.org/ | logs: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://www.dropbox.com/s/fyhqyvy3i8oh25m/wisdom.pdf | ICFP contest starting on 2017-08-04.
15:54:18 <wob_jonas> that, yes
15:55:01 <FireFly> It looks like I'll miss it entirely
15:55:04 <FireFly> oh well
15:55:47 <int-e> why does it have to be a VM... and does the VM exploit vulnerabilities in Virtualbox or VMware or the lesser known ones (is Bochs still a thing? Qemu...)
15:56:29 <ais523> and why does the VM have to be so large
15:56:40 <wob_jonas> int-e: it doesn't have to be a VM. you can just compile your programs for a similar linux machine. they just make it a VM in case you're worried your program won't work in their setup.
15:56:47 <wob_jonas> you don't actually need to use the VM.
15:56:55 <ais523> Debian used to have a version which ran off 1.44 MB of disk space
15:57:06 <wob_jonas> ais523: what? no way
15:57:10 <ais523> they dropped that eventually to fit more programs in, but 5 GB is too much of a scale
15:57:19 <ais523> wob_jonas: it was very cut down, I think
15:57:21 <wob_jonas> I mean, 3 MB, sure, but 1.44 MB?
15:57:27 <ais523> I might be misremembering
15:57:31 <ais523> but that's only a factor of 2
15:57:38 <wob_jonas> yes, a factor of 2
15:58:02 <ais523> but Debian is intentionally designed to be able to do a minimal install if you want
15:58:05 <wob_jonas> first disk is only half full and has the boot loader and kernel (initrd wasn't a thing back then), second floppy has root file system image
15:58:24 <wob_jonas> I mean, I wasn't using Debian back then, but that's how small linux systems worked
15:58:27 <ais523> most programs are split between core functionality and larger data files, so you can install just the core functionality if you like
15:58:53 <ais523> well, I think the Debian install was just kernel + shell + dpkg + apt
15:58:59 <ais523> i.e. just enough to be able to install more programs
15:59:00 <quintopia> they probably realized that computers dont have floppy drives any more.
15:59:09 <ais523> I own a USB floppy disk drive
15:59:17 <ais523> and have even used it on occasion, although not for a long time
15:59:20 <wob_jonas> mind you, I've heard legends about Linux before Linux 2.0 where you could run a system on 1 MB of RAM, which frankly seems impossible to me. you need at least 2MB for Linux, 4MB if you actually want to run nontrivial programs. And that's for old versions. These days you need much more.
15:59:38 <quintopia> i havent used one since like 2007
15:59:47 <wob_jonas> ais523: you need a libc too. libc was big even back then.
15:59:54 <ais523> wob_jonas: the 8086 can't address more than 1 MiB of RAM
16:00:42 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, but Linux was never intended to run without 386 32-bit protected mode, and it still almost doesn't run without it. I hear there are non-vanilla versions for cpus without memory protection, but not for x86.
16:00:52 <wob_jonas> Linux was originally intended as an OS for 386,
16:00:56 <wob_jonas> but later they made it portable
16:01:09 <wob_jonas> (386 compatibles obviously)
16:01:27 <ais523> its instruction set can address almost 2 MiB if you use carrying rather than wrapping addition for segmentation calculations
16:01:47 <wob_jonas> what? no way
16:01:52 <wob_jonas> how would that work?
16:02:13 <ais523> so a far pointer on x86 real mode is 32 bit long
16:02:22 <ais523> and the address is calculated as (high 16 bits × 16) + low 16 bits
16:02:47 <wob_jonas> which cpu generation are you talking about here?
16:02:59 <ais523> wob_jonas: 8086-compatibles
16:03:12 <wob_jonas> yes, but which generation? 8086 or 286 or 386?
16:03:47 <ais523> all of them use this syntax when running in real mode (which is meant to be 8086 compatible)
16:03:57 <ais523> however, the actual 8086 will do a wrapping calculation
16:04:11 <wob_jonas> yeah, and so will the 8086 I think
16:04:13 <wob_jonas> um
16:04:15 <ais523> whereas the 80286, which has more address lines available, deos a carrying calculation
16:04:16 <wob_jonas> the 80286
16:04:19 <wob_jonas> ah
16:04:21 <wob_jonas> right
16:04:24 <wob_jonas> now I'm confused
16:04:30 <wob_jonas> how much address lines does the 286 have?
16:04:33 <ais523> so motherboards at the time had a configurable bit 20 of their address line
16:04:56 <ais523> the 80286 can address 16 MiB in protected mode, so I guess 24 address lines?
16:05:15 <wob_jonas> I see
16:06:01 <wob_jonas> I never really actually used a 286, I only read about them in books. The first computer we had at home was a 386-based PC with I think 8 MB of RAM, although I've seen older PCs elsewhere
16:06:18 <wob_jonas> It was quite a good machine at that time, the 386 was pretty new
16:07:23 <ais523> the 286 never really caught on because its protected mode was really buggy / lacking in features
16:07:36 <wob_jonas> I see
16:08:04 <ais523> it uses 16 bit addresses + fairly slow bank switching, which means that it can't easily access most of the memory that's available
16:08:20 <wob_jonas> yeah
16:08:39 <wob_jonas> also you can't switch back to real mode without resetting the cpu
16:08:45 <ais523> right
16:08:50 <wob_jonas> they fixed all of that and more in the 386
16:08:57 <ais523> although it took surprisingly long for people to find the triple-fault-based method to do that
16:09:00 <ais523> which is fairly clean and net
16:09:02 <ais523> *neat
16:09:08 <wob_jonas> plus made the cpu way more efficient
16:09:11 <ais523> (and, incidentally, is still used by Linux as a last resort implementation of rebooting)
16:09:25 <ais523> (if it can't reboot via ACPI like it'd like to)
16:09:29 <wob_jonas> a triple-fault based method? nice
16:09:45 <wob_jonas> I thought they just used a small circuit on the motherboard
16:09:50 <wob_jonas> in the keyboard controller or something
16:10:47 <wob_jonas> the 386 is a great cpu. it actually has a data cache. that was a big innovation.
16:10:55 <wob_jonas> obviously they didn't NEED a cache before that
16:10:56 <wob_jonas> but still
16:11:01 <ais523> wob_jonas: that was the original method discovered (i.e. using the keyboard controller to trigger the hardware reboot input)
16:11:05 <wob_jonas> that allowed them to run the cpu so quickly
16:11:15 <ais523> triple fault is much simpler, though, I wonder why they didn't think of it before screwing around with hardware
16:11:26 <wob_jonas> that was *discovered*? I assumed it was built into the motherboard deliberately
16:11:43 <ais523> well, I mean
16:11:51 <ais523> IBM were stuck trying to work around Intel's bugs
16:12:03 <ais523> so they programmed their keyboard controller to be able to do reboots
16:12:13 <ais523> which is one solution to the issue of "how can the processor reboot itself to get back into real mode"
16:12:23 <wob_jonas> right, but you didn't really have to discover that. it's a well-known feature that the cpu can be reset in like four ways and one of them is a signal on a leg.
16:12:27 <ais523> so they discovered the principle behind the solution, but still had to actually implement it using a custom keyboard controller
16:12:29 <\oren\> ReeCoin up 7300%
16:12:32 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/WorldCoinIndex/status/892399569077776385
16:12:37 <\oren\> REEEEEEEEE
16:12:45 <ais523> \oren\: altcoins are incredibly volatile
16:12:53 <wob_jonas> right, but they need a completely new motherboard for 286 anyway
16:13:01 <ais523> and most of them are almost worthless, thus a small absolute change can lead to a large relative change
16:13:20 <\oren\> ais523: right now everyone if panicky about the whole bit coin core bit coin cash split
16:14:05 <ais523> why not just run both chains and see which one ends up having more value?
16:14:20 <ais523> each bitcoin gets split into two, one on each system; their total value should add up to the original value of the coin
16:14:37 <\oren\> some people are doing that, but others are trying to arbitrage
16:15:02 <wob_jonas> ais523: sure, they're run both. but it's a market, so they won't "just" run both and see, they want to predict the value to win huge
16:15:04 <ais523> arbitrage helps to cause convergence to a stable value
16:15:18 <ais523> wob_jonas: oh, I didn't realise there was an actual hard fork that had already happened
16:15:24 <ais523> I thought it was still being discussed
16:15:27 <wob_jonas> I think it hadn't happened yet
16:15:32 <wob_jonas> but will very soon
16:15:33 <wob_jonas> but I'm not sure
16:15:54 <wob_jonas> as in, so soon people who are serious about that sort of thing have had to start preparation long ago
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16:32:11 <ais523> for comparison, the last time the ICFP used a VM image, it was 639.1 MB
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16:32:26 <ais523> this one's 5.3 GB
16:32:38 <alercah> Oo
16:32:46 <wob_jonas> yeah, that's big. but like I said, you don't actually need it.
16:33:39 <ais523> if they ask you to submit an executable, and they usually do, you probably need it for the final compile
16:33:43 <ais523> but you certainly don't need to work on it
16:37:53 <wob_jonas> I don't think you really need it. You just need any modern x86_64 linux system to compile on, and make sure you either include the required dynamical libraries or compile them statically into the program.
16:38:10 <wob_jonas> although I'm not sure how libc works these days
16:39:22 <wob_jonas> I mean, I understand why in normal production work you don't want to statically link libc to your programs, but in a competition thing like this it might be useful.
16:42:26 <ais523> depending on how much of libc you need, normally you could statically link it
16:42:39 <ais523> however, this particular purpose for the VM, compiling programs, has a big reason to want all of libc
16:42:45 <ais523> because compiled programs will likely want to link against it
16:42:48 <wob_jonas> and the only reason you even might need to statically link it is if you're using a later version of glibc than what's on their debian
16:43:52 <wob_jonas> and that isn't too likely, since they're using debian 9, which is recent
16:44:14 <wob_jonas> so you'll get screwed up only if you use some gentoo or something with later libc
16:44:35 <wob_jonas> and even then you could install a smaller installation of debian 9 (or 8) on x86_64 and compile on that
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16:48:48 <ais523> hmm, the VM is failing to boot under qemu
16:48:57 <ais523> GRUB works, and Linux starts to load
16:49:07 <wob_jonas> ais523: do you have enough RAM?
16:49:15 <ais523> but after the "setting up initial RAMdisk" stage, the view returns to the original view as of boot, then it hangs
16:49:17 <wob_jonas> where does it fail?
16:49:28 <wob_jonas> ah
16:49:42 <wob_jonas> I'd guess it's a problem with the boot lodaer setup with your emulator then
16:49:57 <wob_jonas> or something
16:49:58 <ais523> well, GRUB working is evidence that it at least doesn't fail in the early stages
16:50:12 <wob_jonas> yeah, but grub has to load the initrd
16:50:25 <ais523> right, but that isn't a hard step or one I'd expect to fail
16:50:34 <wob_jonas> yeah
16:50:37 <wob_jonas> dunno
16:50:48 <wob_jonas> debug it and if it's their fault complain to them
16:51:49 <wob_jonas> I don't think I'll even try to install the VM if I want to participate
16:51:58 <wob_jonas> or download
16:53:13 <ais523> hmm, I think the issue is to do with memory
16:53:30 <ais523> my qemu can't give it more than half a gigabyte, but the implication in the notes is that it needs 4 gigabytes of memory
16:53:47 <ais523> qemu actually segfaults trying to allocate 4G of memory
16:53:59 <ais523> I wonder if it's overflowing it to 0 bytes?
16:54:16 <wob_jonas> no, the implication in the notes is that they will give you 4G of memory for the contest, but it's a modern debian system which is terrible on machines with low amount of RAM so it might actually need 2G or something
16:54:35 <wob_jonas> is it a recent enough version of qemu?
16:54:46 <ais523> whatever the most recent version in the Ubuntu stable repos is
16:55:05 <wob_jonas> and your host is x86_64, right?
16:55:20 <wob_jonas> try giving it just one virtual cpu?
16:55:31 <wob_jonas> not that it should matter much
16:56:05 <wob_jonas> but even with just 512M it should get past the loading initrd stage
16:59:24 <ais523> changing the number of CPUs doesn't help
17:00:51 <ais523> hmm, I suspect GRUB is running but failing to hand over to Linux
17:00:58 <ais523> in this configuration, it's GRUB that loads the initrd
17:01:02 <ais523> let me add some debug statements to the GRUB config
17:02:05 <wob_jonas> sure, grub or the boot loader is always what loads the initrd. that's why it's called *init*rd. it would be just a ramdisk otherwise.
17:02:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52621&oldid=52544 * Qwertyu63 * (+86)
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17:03:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52622&oldid=52519 * Qwertyu63 * (+8)
17:03:49 <ais523> hmm, it seems to be working now, even though I didn't change anything other than dropping caches
17:03:57 <ais523> at least, I'm not aware of having changed anything
17:04:21 <wob_jonas> what caches?
17:04:22 <ais523> I'm also not specifying the amount of memory to use; 0.6GB was not enough
17:04:28 <ais523> wob_jonas: Linux virtual memory caches on the host
17:04:47 <wob_jonas> wtf
17:05:12 <ais523> some web searches implied that QEMU incorrectly counts them as used memory when trying to work out how much memory is available
17:05:16 <wob_jonas> is it possible that you have ran out of memory on the host?
17:05:28 <wob_jonas> ah!
17:05:35 <wob_jonas> so it automatically set the memory size
17:05:45 <wob_jonas> you should try to set it explicitly
17:06:03 <ais523> right, but all the values were either too small, or else caused qemu to fail to allocate memory
17:06:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number Factory]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52623&oldid=52621 * Qwertyu63 * (+162)
17:06:20 <ais523> the remaining issue seems to be that, after logging in, all the filesystems are read-only
17:06:29 <ais523> but that's likely fixable with a ramdrive
17:06:40 <wob_jonas> and if you're on a machine that doesn't have much resources, such as mine where I ran out of memory for ayacc, then you might be screwed anyway, because you shouldn't expect that a 5 GB disk sized debian system will be kind on memory use.
17:07:03 <wob_jonas> Isn't that because the underlying virtual disk drives are read-only?
17:07:49 <ais523> yes, almost certainly
17:10:26 <ais523> OK, this works
17:10:28 <ais523> at least for C
17:11:16 <wob_jonas> as in, you compiled a hello world?
17:11:18 <ais523> yes
17:11:32 <wob_jonas> yeah, I did at one point break my linux system such that that simple test failed
17:11:45 <wob_jonas> that was shortly before I reinstalled, and one of the last straws
17:11:55 <wob_jonas> the other was the man program no longer working
17:12:13 <wob_jonas> it was all my fault by the way
17:12:26 <wob_jonas> I don't know the specifics, but I fiddled a lot with the system
17:12:33 <wob_jonas> I learned a lot though
17:13:29 <ais523> are you the person who reimplemented core programs like cat and managed to break them in the process? or was that someone else?
17:13:40 <wob_jonas> that was someone else
17:15:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52624&oldid=52587 * Qwertyu63 * (+63)
17:16:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Qwertyu63]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52625&oldid=52622 * Qwertyu63 * (+0)
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17:21:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * TheZipCreator * New user account
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17:28:01 <wob_jonas> oh wow
17:28:12 <wob_jonas> I got nostalgic and started thinking about those old computers
17:28:51 <wob_jonas> basically the story is that the third computer we had at home was a Pentium that was my computer, running at the same time as the main computer (my father's computer), another Pentium
17:29:40 <wob_jonas> and that I still use that same PC, even though I've replaced the hardware and the operating system many times, but I never replaced both the operating system and a major hardware component at the same time, so I always had to keep the hostname
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17:30:21 <wob_jonas> and I have backups sometimes local copies of lots of files from all the earlier operating systems
17:30:47 <wob_jonas> and I used to say that the operating system and each individual part of the hardware got replaced at least three times since
17:30:53 <wob_jonas> but I just realized that's not true
17:31:21 <wob_jonas> I think the optical disk drive only got replaced twice,
17:31:35 <wob_jonas> but when that computer was first set up, it didn't yet have an optical disk drive
17:31:53 <wob_jonas> so getting that first CD drive probably counts as an extra occasion
17:31:59 <wob_jonas> ok, that means the balance is restored
17:32:29 <wob_jonas> heck, I think even the desk has been replaced three times
17:33:01 <wob_jonas> the monitor, I think, got replaced exactly three times: once to a newer crt, once to a small tft, and once to this big tft
17:33:44 <wob_jonas> I'm really fuzzy with the history and I'm not sure how many times the motherboard and many other components were replaced, but I know it was at least three times each
17:34:07 <wob_jonas> hmm... the floppy drive might also be a bottleneck in fact
17:34:30 <wob_jonas> both the 1.44 and the 1.2 floppy drive. I think I only had one 1.2 floppy drive and one or two 1.44 floppy drive
17:34:32 <wob_jonas> damn it
17:35:06 <wob_jonas> but I don't have a floppy drive in this machine anymore, so it's hard to notice
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17:37:25 <wob_jonas> do I now have to buy two cheap floppy drives and throw one out after installing to the machine? probably no
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18:02:18 <zzo38> I invented a kind of character coding for use with computer applications involving astronomy and/or astrology.
18:03:51 <zzo38> There are up to 1065353472 codepoints, and the first 128 codepoints are compatible with ASCII.
18:04:52 <zzo38> Do you like this?
18:05:56 <Cale> wob_jonas: Okay, one thing I don't understand is why this thing makes the notation for lambdas and conditionals worse halfway through
18:10:13 <Cale> Yeah, the notation is getting more and more disgusting :)
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19:08:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~-~!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52626&oldid=47106 * Xav737 * (+331) Add a summary area for the esolang
19:11:59 <pikhq> zzo38: This sounds almost like giga-Unicode. :P
19:14:26 <wob_jonas> Cale: wait till the last few levels. I already didn't understand how come lists can always be extracted freely, even when they are the output of a computation,
19:15:07 <wob_jonas> but in the final few levels suddenly you'll be able to remove the condition from the conditionals, even if that conditional is the output of a computation (like a lambda)
19:15:24 <wob_jonas> So I really don't understand how building stuff works in this game.
19:15:25 <Cale> wob_jonas: Yeah, I finished it, and the notation was really dumb at the end, I guess they want it to look like ruby or something?
19:15:39 <wob_jonas> Also, at some point it changes the notation to the atoms to something horrible.
19:15:46 <shachaf> Cale: h8r
19:15:53 <shachaf> The notation is pretty silly but it doesn't matter.
19:16:08 <wob_jonas> Cale: maybe they want to make it look like *something*, but not ruby
19:16:17 <imode> what game? that lambda game?
19:16:20 <wob_jonas> But it's not really the notations that bother me.
19:16:21 <Cale> shachaf: I just don't know why they would start with better notation, and then make it worse gradually
19:16:25 <wob_jonas> imode: yes
19:16:51 <Cale> wob_jonas: Would it be better if you could place an argument on a lambda and only click it to beta reduce?
19:17:27 <Cale> I mean, the rules about how you can manipulate the components are pretty arbitrary
19:17:38 <Cale> Like the thing about being able to unpack lists
19:17:45 <Cale> That seems okay to me
19:17:55 <Cale> It's just an arbitrary power that you're granted
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19:18:27 <int-e> /context
19:18:39 <wob_jonas> Cale: I don't think so. Even now in some tasks you need too many clicks to reduce expressions that should just auto-reduce.
19:19:33 <int-e> Ah, found it.
19:19:35 <Cale> wob_jonas: I thought it was kind of interesting to have the power to avoid reduction and decompose things
19:19:57 <wob_jonas> Cale: really my main complaint is that we never see an application expression
19:20:10 <shachaf> Cale: I don't quite understand those null things.
19:20:18 <Cale> shachaf: Just bad notation.
19:20:28 <wob_jonas> Cale: but you don't seem to NEED reduction. And I think I understand the null thing
19:20:51 <Cale> They want it to look like a ternary operator for some reason, but it's not actually a ternary operator
19:21:06 <Cale> So they introduce null there (which actually always occurs on the false branch of the thing)
19:21:11 <shachaf> This might be inspired by Dragonbox. At least it has some similarities.
19:21:30 <wob_jonas> basically a lambda can have multiple return values, which makes sense even if few languages have it, and then it freely allows you to compose any output to any input without building blocks
19:21:33 <shachaf> Cale: I was hoping they'd introduce callCC
19:21:47 <wob_jonas> shachaf: we'd need a fucking function composition first
19:21:50 <Cale> I mean, this style of game could be much better with different primitives
19:21:54 <wob_jonas> the part I really don't understand is the map thing
19:22:03 <wob_jonas> Cale: sure. like the crocodile game, but more powerful.
19:22:04 <shachaf> Anyway I wanted to make a game like this but in the version I had in mind you build more complicated expressions without reducing them all the time.
19:22:09 <wob_jonas> you know the crocodile game, right?
19:22:12 <Cale> yeah
19:22:14 <shachaf> Alligator eggs?
19:22:32 <Cale> Yeah, Alligator eggs
19:22:38 <shachaf> Professor Twist could not but smile. / "You mean," he said, "a crocodile."
19:22:38 <wob_jonas> shachaf: that yes. I'm in Europe, so I can only go with crocodiles
19:23:01 <shachaf> Why?
19:23:47 <wob_jonas> Europe doesn't really have aligators. It has crocodiles, which are nicer, and even those are really far from Hungary, I only see them in zoos.
19:24:31 <shachaf> You're in Eurasia, which has Chinese alligators.
19:24:44 <shachaf> But you can talk about dragon games even though dragons are extinct in Europe.
19:24:59 <wob_jonas> yeah, but Africa has crocodiles, and it's much closer
19:25:32 <shachaf> Africa also has elephants. Why not talk about elephant eggs?
19:25:34 <wob_jonas> are they extinct or are they just hiding? even so, I don't use Chinese dragons for dragon games
19:26:13 <wob_jonas> shachaf: crocodiles have big gaping mouths, you can draw them easily as swallowing eggs or other crocodile families, and even draw them to look similar to a lowercase lambda
19:26:28 <wob_jonas> it would be much stranger for an elephant to eat other elephant families
19:26:42 <shachaf> http://www.qu-i-x.com/crocodile.html
19:26:54 <Jafet> space games are quite popular these days
19:27:02 <Jafet> you could set it in space, with spacesuits
19:28:02 <shachaf> Jafet: Why not set it in a factory with nuclear waste containers?
19:30:18 <wob_jonas> Cale: anyway, the building rules indeed start to make no sense when map are introduced. you can map an expression that has holes, and get expressions with multiple holes. how does that even work?
19:30:28 <wob_jonas> ok, maybe that already didn't make sense with the lambdas
19:30:30 <wob_jonas> dunno
19:31:12 <shachaf> The holes vs. lambdas thing didn't quite make sense to me in the first place.
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19:31:35 <shachaf> `5 w
19:31:40 <HackEgo> 1/1:galaxy//A galaxy is a star that feeds its litter with milk. \ canada//Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. \ turing complete//You complete a Turing when you Tur by a specified amount. \ cod//Cod is a fish's favourite fish person shooter. \ watch//Too late!
19:31:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:~-~!]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52627&oldid=39430 * Xav737 * (+708) /* Dropping the requirement of bignums */ new section
19:31:50 <Cale> You might be overthinking it?
19:32:10 <Cale> It's not like, keeping track of scope or anything
19:32:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:~-~!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52628&oldid=52627 * Xav737 * (+78) /* Dropping the requirement of bignums */
19:32:52 <shachaf> `cwlprits canada
19:32:53 <wob_jonas> level 35 is also strange
19:33:00 <HackEgo> shachäf shachäf boil̈y boil̈y boil̈y
19:33:07 <wob_jonas> you get free variables you can drag there
19:33:20 <wob_jonas> and insert to a lambda, and suddenly they're bound to it
19:33:37 <shachaf> Yes, I guess that's the distinction between holes and lambdas.
19:34:06 <wob_jonas> but that was the only level where you can do that, the theme doesn't get explored, and we never find out what the rules are or how alpha-reduction works
19:34:46 <wob_jonas> ah yes, you also get free variables in level 7
19:35:08 <Cale> I also prefer the original syntax for "lists" which makes them look more like sets
19:35:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~-~!]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52629&oldid=52626 * Xav737 * (+30)
19:35:28 <wob_jonas> but I think you never get enough building blocks to witness alpha reduction, do you?
19:35:45 <Cale> There's nothing really to suggest that sets/lists have any order to them
19:36:06 <Cale> There's only ever x
19:36:15 <shachaf> They're multisets.
19:36:22 <shachaf> But in at least one level the order is required.
19:36:33 <shachaf> ...But you can always take them apart and put them back together so it doesn't mean much.
19:36:36 <Cale> yeah, multisets / bags
19:36:40 <wob_jonas> Cale: yes, that was strange, but I think there's only one or two tasks where that actually matters, the ones that use both lists and equal, and at that point you get the bracket notation
19:37:02 <Cale> wait, which level required something about order?
19:37:21 <wob_jonas> Cale: let me find that
19:37:35 <shachaf> Looks like 54
19:37:49 <wob_jonas> 48
19:37:58 <Cale> oh
19:38:05 <Cale> I see
19:38:11 <wob_jonas> and 49
19:38:19 <Cale> 48 and 49 surely don't
19:38:20 <shachaf> 48 requires order?
19:38:23 <Cale> 54 does
19:38:25 <wob_jonas> no wait, 49 doesn't require it
19:38:40 <shachaf> I don't see how to make order matter in 48 or 49
19:38:43 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I think 48 has solutions and non-solutions that differ only by order in lists
19:38:46 <wob_jonas> 49 doesn't
19:39:06 <shachaf> I don't see how.
19:39:13 <wob_jonas> hmm wait
19:39:14 <shachaf> ([star,star] ==) is pre-bound
19:39:36 <wob_jonas> sorry, you're right
19:39:39 <wob_jonas> 48 doesn't require order
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19:43:01 <wob_jonas> hmm... I think order might matter for level 51, let me try that
19:43:49 <wob_jonas> wait wtf
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19:45:24 <wob_jonas> #51 seems to claim that ([star, (false?$hole:null)] == [(false?$hole:null),star]) evaluates to true
19:45:26 <wob_jonas> how does that work?
19:50:17 <int-e> you did that differently... I compared two stars and erased a bag containing four stars.
19:50:20 <wob_jonas> 65 is the other level where order matters
19:50:29 <wob_jonas> int-e: sure, that's the easy solution
19:50:55 <int-e> but the thing is that nulls disappear completely
19:50:57 <wob_jonas> so because of 54, the goal definitely cares about order
19:51:16 <wob_jonas> but let me test if the == operator cares about the order in 65
19:51:42 <wob_jonas> no wait, 54 doesn't let me test that
19:52:48 <int-e> in any case, I agree that it introduces ugly notation for no good reason.
19:53:07 <wob_jonas> ok, then I think 51 is the only level where you can detect whether == cares about list order
19:53:47 <wob_jonas> I still don't understand the part where you can sometimes evaluate lambdas and some other expressions even if the arguments have holes
19:53:57 <wob_jonas> that's so strange, and I don't understand what the meaning is supposed to be
19:54:03 <wob_jonas> I mean, how do you do that in programming?
19:54:53 <wob_jonas> and it's a bit strange that 51 lets you evaluate (false?$hole:null)
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19:56:11 <wob_jonas> The way a conditional can return variable number of return values is strange, but technically you can imagine like you always get a list of the variable arity they output (like in scheme) and as a concession to easy playing the game, you can freely unpack and repack lists, sort of
19:56:23 <wob_jonas> it doesn't quite make sense, but it's not the most disturbing thing at first about the game
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19:57:31 <wob_jonas> in the end, the whole game is so strange I can't make much sense of it, but I'll see what ais says because he knows more about strange logic systems
19:57:59 <wob_jonas> (logic systems in the sense like modal logic and linear logic and use-once variables etc)
20:01:53 <int-e> well, #51 also says that [true,star] == [star,true]
20:02:06 <int-e> as you've probably found out
20:02:23 <wob_jonas> int-e: oh! I haven't checked that. good idea.
20:03:55 <int-e> also the items in the bag aren't arranged nicely after the 6th one, sad :)
20:04:19 <wob_jonas> int-e: well after a while it's hard to display stuff on the screen
20:04:35 <wob_jonas> bags also don't get nicely arranged when the contained elements are large in screen space
20:04:41 <int-e> yeah, but up to 9 is still easy
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20:31:10 <moony> _unidecode ᠍
20:31:14 <moony> err
20:31:20 <moony> `unidecode ᠍
20:39:36 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
20:39:42 <\oren\> WHYYYYYYY
20:48:48 <wob_jonas> what why?
20:49:11 <wob_jonas> I must be missing the context
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21:20:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52630&oldid=52620 * Btiffin2017 * (+546) /* Examples, add Rock Scissors Paper */
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21:25:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52631&oldid=52630 * Btiffin2017 * (+7) /* Instructions */
21:30:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52632&oldid=52631 * Btiffin2017 * (+0) /* Instructions */
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22:57:25 <btiffin> To the Funge-98 experts in the crowd? I've tried FBBI rcfunge and cfunge, the Input Character function is buffered. For a proper Play again? prompt is it wise to spin on ~ eating newlines? Or are there better options for getting a 'yn' answer that is to be repeated after the next round?
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23:29:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52633&oldid=52632 * Btiffin2017 * (+293) /* Rock Scissors Paper, on 3; updated to ask play again? */
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23:46:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52634&oldid=52633 * Btiffin2017 * (-32) /* Rock Scissors Paper, on 3 */
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