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00:31:36 <fizzie> fungot: Speak when spoken to.
00:31:37 <fungot> fizzie: anyone here speaks swedish? :p. ugh i need to go to burger king for lunch.
00:31:55 <fizzie> fungot: How would you even eat food?
00:31:55 <fungot> fizzie: which kind of defeats the community spirit :p. ugh i need to
00:32:12 <fizzie> Well, if you definitely need to.
00:33:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:33:41 <fungot> Selected style: qwantz (Dinosaur Comics transcriptions 2003-2011)
00:33:48 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you like Spanner?
00:47:53 <fizzie> I don't know much about it.
00:48:17 <fizzie> I see on the Cloud Spanner page they've managed to make one of those comparison tables where their thing gets best of everything.
00:49:25 <shachaf> ✔ has more checkmarks than the competition
00:55:08 <boily> helloocheckmarkchaf.
00:55:19 <boily> fizziello, fungellot.
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01:02:41 <oerjan> fizzie: how's the esolangs.org registration? someone at reddit claimed whois showed it was expired and in a grace period.
01:05:14 <oerjan> (they thought that's why the site was down.)
01:07:26 <oerjan> hm i don't see anything like that.
01:08:22 <fizzie> oerjan: Should be fine.
01:08:32 <fizzie> It's on auto-renew, and last bumped up in May.
01:08:38 <fizzie> Registry Expiry Date: 2018-05-24T19:21:16Z
01:14:09 * oerjan makes a comment https://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/comments/6rv7fq/esolangsorg_down/dlekraj/
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01:16:14 <boily> who is cheryllium?
01:18:42 <oerjan> . o O ( which cheryllium )
01:20:03 <boily> two questions: the one who is a moderator on /r/esolangs? there are multiple ones?
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01:43:48 <HackEgo> 1/2:goofix//Goofix is an antropomorphic canine arithmetic notation. \ squirrel//A squirrel is a small nut-harvesting unit frequently deployed all over the world. They are popular due to their usefulness in distracting dogs. \ lifespan//Your lifespan is how fat you are in the time dimension. The temporally fattest person in the world has a temporal
01:44:08 <boily> squirrels are evil.
01:55:45 <\oren\> STUPID TUNNELBLICK I HATE IT
01:58:28 <\oren\> I can't get the stupid VPN to work
01:59:13 <\oren\> it either sends nothing thru the VPN, or sends EVERYTHING thru the VPN
01:59:17 <boily> what is tunnelblick? what kind of VPN is it setting up? on what platform are you running it? what's the phase of the moon?
02:00:21 <\oren\> and I want it only to go thru the vpn when connecting to company wobsites, not when connecting to yahoo.com
02:02:39 <boily> I'm a little bit rusty on VPN stuff, but afaicr, you'll be filtering your trafic based on some kind of mask. stuff like everything that points to 10.x.x.x goes through the VPN.
02:03:23 <boily> do you have access to CLI tools, or are you expected to go through the tunnelblick thing for everything?
02:04:25 <boily> I think OSX ethernet tools are BSDlike. is there such a concept as TUN/TAP on OSX?
02:04:55 <\oren\> http://www.moongiant.com/phase/today
02:05:09 <boily> I don't have access to that kind of thing right now, and I may be past a few gin tonics, but I believe that's the first step.
02:05:33 <boily> I wish you good luck, and may your googlesoteric-fu be powerful!
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03:38:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52687&oldid=52661 * LyricLy * (+125)
03:39:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52688&oldid=52687 * LyricLy * (+22) /* Stack manipulation */
04:01:51 <rdococ> I'd talk more often here, but then I run the risk of being scolded.
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05:16:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Aaronduino * New user account
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06:13:46 <\oren\> http://imgur.com/D7VwIOs
06:21:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52689&oldid=52688 * LyricLy * (+1158)
06:22:25 <doesthiswork> So I've been reading brian cantwell-smith's varieties of self reference
06:23:24 <doesthiswork> and it awakens in me the desire to make a language that fully understands its operation. but doesn't have much control
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19:15:22 <HackEgo> olist 1090: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:55:32 <shachaf> wob_jonas: It's been updating every Monday and Thursday for the past few weeks.
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20:00:36 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> actually, a good way to think about the 80386 is "Intel learns how to be backwards compatible in a way that doesn't hold back the future too"" => no way. the 386 introduced 16-bit operations that cause register tear. they might not have been able to foresee that, but that has already caused problems near the pentiums.
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20:01:37 <wob_jonas> "<ais523> it strikes me that programs would benefit from multiple (processor-provided) hardware stacks" => the problem with that is that it's inefficient to know how much of each stack you want to pop when you exit frames.
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20:14:39 <aaronduino> Is there anything I should know before making an esolangs.org page for AsciiDots?
20:16:01 <HackEgo> 1/2:output//who//Who cares about ancient cases anyway? \ vulture//Vulture is like Culture, but far less picky about the food. \ quoteformat//quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side,
20:16:08 <HackEgo> 2/2: not two. \ nm//nm means "nondeterministic minotaur" hth
20:16:39 <HackEgo> hth ([ʰtʰh̩]) is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
20:17:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tias: not found
20:18:00 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
20:18:42 <aaronduino> So, wob_jonas, anythink I should know before adding a language to esolangs.org?
20:19:13 <wob_jonas> dunno, just read the wiki a bit to see how other articles work
20:19:22 <wob_jonas> and the introduction on the main page too
20:19:59 <ais523> aaronduino: you'll need to introduce yourself to the wiki first, if you haven't yet
20:20:05 <ais523> we have a lot of problems with spambots
20:20:10 <ais523> see http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Introduce_yourself
20:20:43 <ais523> apart from that, when creating an article, the main thing that people forget to do that's helpful is to make sure it's actually possible to find the article
20:20:52 <ais523> link it from the language list, and place it in appropriate categories
20:21:30 <wob_jonas> yeah, we actually have both a language list and a languages category, both independently maintained for some reason
20:21:50 <wob_jonas> I think there are discrepancies between them but I haven't really checked
20:22:00 <aaronduino> The main page (and documentation) is on github (github.com/aaronduino/asciidots); should I copy and paste from that or just write a little description on the wiki and link to the github page?
20:22:05 <wob_jonas> it's just some crazy habit esoteric people do
20:22:46 <wob_jonas> I guess an esowiki needs some overarching esotericness that isn't too distracting, or else some worse esoterisation of the wiki would pop up
20:23:15 <wob_jonas> (some say natural languages work that way too, people make it more and more complicated as long as they can still speak it. I don't really believe that theory.)
20:23:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ais523 signup process tester 1 * New user account
20:23:50 <aaronduino> So, should I copy and paste documentation into esolangs if its is maintained on Github?
20:24:27 <ais523> aaronduino: often it'll need reformatting to look good; Esolang doesn't use Markdown
20:26:31 <aaronduino> On the Introduce Yourself page, do I need to write the timestamp, or is it appended automagically?
20:27:06 <wob_jonas> if you use four tildes for a signature, the wiki will replace that with a timestamp when you save the page
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20:28:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52690&oldid=52679 * Aaronduino * (+251)
20:30:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MediaWiki:Welcomecreation-msg]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52691 * Ais523 * (+369) tell new users about the introduction page
20:31:48 <ais523> I just changed the signup form so that it would tell people about the introduction page
20:31:54 <ais523> so that they don't have to get an edit rejected to discover it exists
20:32:29 <ais523> wob_jonas: specifically, three tildes is just username, four is username + timestamp, five is just timestamp
20:32:50 <ais523> four is therefore the standard signature
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20:33:06 <Taneb> Do more ~s have more esoteric definitions
20:33:20 <Taneb> 17 ~s is a link to the last article you edited
20:34:22 <oerjan> ais523: i thought half of the point of the introduction system was that it would thwart the kind of spammers that use humans for signup but bots for editing; that extra inf may break that.
20:35:18 <ais523> let's see if it turns out to be a problem, first
20:35:31 <ais523> if nothing else, it'll be amusing to see what the human spammers say
20:35:43 <ais523> and several new people have complained about losing edits because they didn't know about the introduction rule
20:36:51 <oerjan> if it were possible, it would be better to put such a warning on the edit button itself.
20:37:35 <oerjan> (that is, triggered by _starting_ an edit of the wrong page)
20:37:40 <ais523> it is possible, not sure how many people would read it though
20:37:52 <ais523> nobody reads the current request to make sure pages are correctly categorised
20:38:05 <oerjan> well in such a way that you cannot edit the page, naturally.
20:38:48 <ais523> I'm not sure we can detect whether a user's been introduced or not from CSS or JS without using AJAX
20:39:02 <wob_jonas> oerjan: there's the old internet truth that no matter how many flashing red warnings and click-throughs and "I accept" checkboxes you put, eventually you just can't make some people to read things
20:39:05 <ais523> there's a possible fix but it's really complex and would require a change to the sitewide config
20:39:35 <ais523> we could make it so that users become autoconfirmed at 1 edit, then use the !autoconfirmed status as a trigger to tell people to introduce themselves
20:40:53 <oerjan> wob_jonas: but if there was no actual edit form for them to fill in, they might at least suspect they were doing something wrong.
20:42:06 <wob_jonas> oerjan: you mean you'd just get the source view for an uneditable page? maybe
20:42:22 <oerjan> more depressing is that since the introduction system started, i recall exactly _one_ spammer getting caught in it. just the other day.
20:42:44 <oerjan> (of course that's because we haven't had an actual spam flooding attempt, but still...)
20:42:46 <shachaf> What do you make of this regular olist update schedule?
20:43:19 <wob_jonas> I always imagine that scene with James Bond and the hairdryer when someone says that.
20:43:58 * oerjan may not have seen that scene
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20:47:07 <shachaf> What's the best kind of Norwegian pizza?
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20:48:38 <fizzie> I'm guessing it's the deep fjord pizza.
20:49:21 <oerjan> although my dad once, way back, did make a fish pizza.
20:49:44 <oerjan> i suppose tuna isn't unheard of, this was not tuna.
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20:50:22 <oerjan> . o O ( hm herring pizza )
20:50:27 <aaronduino> Is there a way to automatically convert from markdown to the wiki's markup language?
20:50:28 <fizzie> Salmon pizza isn't that uncommon either, I think.
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20:51:00 <fizzie> Interrupt... the really important discussion about pizza?
20:51:05 <oerjan> aaronduino: i don't know, but it's mediawiki syntax, so search for that.
20:51:09 <shachaf> Interrupting the offtopic chatter with esolang dicussions?
20:51:15 <fizzie> I'd be surprised if no-one had written a markdown-to-wikitext converter.
20:51:18 <wob_jonas> aarnduino: there's probably no perfect way for that, because Markdown is stupid and impossible to parse. it's probably the second worst wiki formatting system after Tiki's
20:51:35 <oerjan> perhaps that famous pandoc can do it
20:51:42 <aaronduino> Well, its hard to parse, but great to write in
20:52:01 <fizzie> pandoc does have it as a supported format, yes.
20:52:25 <fizzie> There's also a few MediaWiki modules that add support for Markdown, but I don't think we want to experiment with those.
20:52:28 <shachaf> wob_jonas: What syntax should I use instead of Markdown?
20:53:07 <wob_jonas> shachaf: I quite like mediawiki syntax myself
20:53:22 <ais523> I'm pretty sure markdown-to-mediawiki convertors exist, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're any good
20:53:24 <shachaf> No way, it's way too heavyweight for taking notes.
20:53:27 <oerjan> surely mediawiki is even harder to parse
20:53:38 <shachaf> I just want to write things down and have them be readable in the source language.
20:53:40 <ais523> mediawiki syntax is much more internally consistent than markdown is
20:53:49 <ais523> if it's harder to parse, it's because it has more cases, not because they're more complex
20:54:20 <shachaf> Do you ever go mushroom-hunting?
20:54:20 <aaronduino> The main thing I like about markdown is using backticks for code instead of spaces or <code>x</code>
20:54:48 <ais523> low-overhead markup languages have three main requirements: 1) not looking excessively artificial when read (i.e. mistakable for text files); 2) capable of expressing arbitrary content; 3) being easy for unfamiliar users to write in
20:55:19 <ais523> Markdown fails all three, IMO (whereas MediaWiki syntax passes 2 and in simple cases 3)
20:55:33 <ais523> I'd rather like something that passed 1 and 2 simultaneously
20:55:34 * oerjan hasn't been mushroom-hunting since ... _possibly_ early 90s, quite likely 80s.
20:55:37 <ais523> all three at once seems fairly hard
20:56:14 <shachaf> Markdown isn't too far from passing 1, I think.
20:57:10 <wob_jonas> there's also a case for just plain HTML, features restricted by the parser for security, and added features in HTML syntax only for things that HTML can't easily express
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20:57:19 <ais523> I know, I've used a subset of Markdown in the past when 1 was the most important feature
20:57:29 <wob_jonas> eg. some syntax for internal wikilinks that looks HTML-like
20:57:38 <ais523> wob_jonas: that's basically BBcode
20:57:49 <ais523> which is pretty good if you want 2+3 and don't care about 1 at all
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21:01:57 <oerjan> ais523: btw many of the new users recently did _not_ get caught in the filter before introducing... with many of them from PPCG, i've been wondering if it's passed through word by mouth.
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21:02:32 <oerjan> otoh at least one of them had a hard time.
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21:39:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jordan * New user account
21:41:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Introduce yourself]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52692&oldid=52690 * Jordan * (+209)
21:52:36 <fizzie> That's a pretty fast progress from Log/newusers to Esolang:Introduce yourself. I think ais523's change is working!
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22:10:28 <oerjan> nope, that user got caught in the filter first.
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22:57:51 <\oren\> @realdonaldtrump: I have just ordered a preemptive strike on pyongyang. #MAGA #cleansingfire
22:58:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AsciiDots]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52693 * Aaronduino * (+13223) Create page for AsciiDots
23:00:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52694&oldid=52684 * Aaronduino * (+16) add AsciiDots to language list
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23:42:12 <wob_jonas> http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/fuel-efficiency reminds me to the captivating idea I have of a tram so long it doesn't even have to move at all: passengers just get on in one door in one station and exit on another door in the other station.
23:42:44 <wob_jonas> the problem with that is that cars couldn't cross the road with the tram then
23:44:28 <imode> you might as well have a walking underground subway then.
23:44:38 <Hoolootwo> just shut the trains down, and walk
23:45:18 <Hoolootwo> in one of Asimov books there's walkways that are similar to trains
23:46:12 <shachaf> wob_jonas: sounds like a topic for #trains hth
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