←2017-08-10 2017-08-11 2017-08-12→ ↑2017 ↑all
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00:16:59 <mertyildiran> Hi, what are the best examples of self-replicating computer program generation system that developed using an esoteric programming language?
00:18:30 <mertyildiran> by best, I mean the ones with most successful results (generated most complex programs)
00:19:54 <mertyildiran> *specifically using Turing tarpit languages
00:29:55 <imode> redcode.
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00:35:30 <mertyildiran> imode: Redcode?
00:37:10 <imode> redcode, the programming language for CoreWar.
00:37:59 <imode> the entire idea is "battling programs", and thus, replication.
00:39:27 <wob_jonas> "thus"? battling programs don't necessarily have to involve replication
00:39:40 <wob_jonas> you can have one program battling one
00:39:52 <wob_jonas> don't try to set it up like that's a clear consequence
00:40:25 <wob_jonas> Mr Smith replicated, but normal agents don't do that
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00:52:40 <mertyildiran> imode: for Redcode it says not even Turing Complete.
00:53:10 <mertyildiran> imode: I'm looking for the state-of-art.
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00:54:56 <mertyildiran> also what is the self-replication example in the lowest leve possible? in Assembly for example.
00:55:14 <mertyildiran> *lowest level
00:56:11 <mertyildiran> I'm asking that because I couldn't find any example beyond a toy (printing to console and not doing any real life tasks)
00:57:00 <imode> "the state of the art".
00:58:17 <mertyildiran> maybe a self-replicating system targeting x86 assembly language for example, can be useful
00:58:27 <imode> why self replication, exactly.
00:58:42 <imode> go play with von neumann CAs in golly.
00:58:55 <imode> also, redcode is turing complete.
01:01:15 <imode> you seem to have something in mind, perhaps consider sharing with us.
01:02:08 <mertyildiran> imode: "state-of-the-art" is also valid (the was missing though :D). https://esolangs.org/wiki/Redcode says it's (almost) Turing Complete.
01:02:25 <imode> yes, in the same way that every modern computer is (almost) a turing machine.
01:02:39 <imode> we live in finite memory spaces. turing machines require infinite memory.
01:03:18 <imode> regardless of that, I'm wondering why you're seeking self-replication. there was some work on.. god what was it.. robust-first computing.
01:03:53 <imode> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hwO8Q_TyCA&list=PLm5k2NUmpIP-4ekppm6JoAqZ1BLXZOztE here's an entire playlist of talks and presentations on it.
01:04:09 <imode> if that doesn't satiate you, you might have some other idea in mind.
01:08:02 <mertyildiran> imode: I was just wondering around about self-replication in computers and biology for a while. I found DNA codon table (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_codon_table) and languages like Brainfuck or DNA# (https://esolangs.org/wiki/DNA-Sharp) are very similar yet far away from being useful.
01:08:52 <imode> yup. and that's mainly because we don't really have use for things that have the ability to replicate.
01:09:38 <imode> "robust-first computing" is kind of like what you're searching for. multiple agents with biological feedback systems working towards a real goal, like sorting an array.
01:10:04 <mertyildiran> imode: because the encapsulation has been made by manual coding from CPU architecture to your desktop environment is making Turing tarpit languages useless.
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01:10:38 <imode> not really. it's more "why would I want to write a program that replicates itself or has the capability to replicate if it doesn't contribute to the end goal of my project."
01:10:58 <imode> if your goal is to write worms, then sure. if your goal is to do some creative stuff with distributed systems, then sure.
01:12:18 <imode> don't get me wrong. case studies in evolution applied to programs produce interesting results, but it's not generally useful.
01:13:10 <imode> same goes with self-replicating programs.
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01:13:27 <mertyildiran> imode: the thing that it's not possible to mimic biologic replication in a high level computer code. This was the thing I was trying to say.
01:13:40 <imode> well, you say that but it's definitely possible.
01:14:01 <imode> "mimic biologic replication", you mean replication with mutation? that's entirely the point of.. well, genetic algorithms.
01:14:08 <imode> when applied to programs, of course.
01:15:10 <imode> there was even a simulator that provided a circular string of DNA embedded with operations on a stack machine, and some of those were operations that did replication/modification of the original string.
01:15:17 <imode> I'll see if I can find it.
01:15:17 <mertyildiran> imode: I know what genetic algorithms are.
01:16:06 <mertyildiran> imode: you know the amino acids are the most basic building blocks of a protein.
01:16:19 <imode> yes, I'm very well aware of that.
01:16:43 <imode> as should anybody who's taken a biology course in highschool.
01:19:24 <mertyildiran> imode: and what a protein is doing a cell? It's a procedure(function) in a cell. Every protein does certain tasks and there are protein complexes that you can imagine as a procedure made of from multiple functions.
01:19:51 <mertyildiran> imode: everything is possible with 20 amino acids in total.
01:20:09 <imode> ...yes, it's a useful abstraction, sure. though I don't really see your point.
01:21:51 <mertyildiran> imode: now imagine a microprocessor architecture with 20 instructions in its assembly language.
01:22:12 <mertyildiran> imode: that's the same thing in theory right?
01:23:34 <imode> no. useful abstraction, but it doesn't cut it.
01:24:31 <mertyildiran> imode: what I'm trying to say is it's more of a hardware and encapsulation problem than an algorithmic problem. Encapsulation creating a barrier.
01:24:55 <mertyildiran> imode: what do you mean with does not cut it?
01:24:57 <imode> barrier to what? nothing stops us from mimicing mutation and replication on a fixed alphabet which stands for instructions.
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01:25:10 <imode> again, it's what genetic algorithms were invented to do.
01:25:36 <imode> and it doesn't cut it because cellular mechanics are far more complicated than "proteins are just function calls". proteins don't do anything.
01:25:47 <mertyildiran> imode: barrier in front to the advancement of this field (self-replicating programs).
01:25:49 <imode> not by themselves, anyway.
01:26:13 <imode> uh.. no. there's nothing stopping you from simulating a bonafide genome. people do it all the time. plenty of resources on genetic algorithms around.
01:27:03 <imode> go research protein folding. that will show you where exactly your analogy breaks down.
01:28:07 <imode> sorry to say but the idea isn't useful generally. you're not going to suddenly apply a genetic algorithm to x86 machine code and out pops a cyborg. :P
01:28:20 <imode> now, you can apply GAs to useful optimization problems.
01:32:47 <mertyildiran> Simulating and mimicking are different concepts. With DNA simulation you create better DNA (the target is biology) but with DNA mimicking you create better program (the target is computers).
01:33:04 <imode> ..simulating and mimicking are the same thing.
01:33:23 <mertyildiran> Current self-replication technologies are unable to surpass manual coding.
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01:34:05 <mertyildiran> But biologic self-replication is able to surpass manual coding of DNA.
01:35:13 <mertyildiran> Bacteria create better bacteria before your computational biology techniques, so nature surpass.
01:36:16 <mertyildiran> Not useful = Will not be invested
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01:39:07 <mertyildiran> imode: also you said proteins are function calls not functions itself. So where the program is stored for those functions? If you are talking about mitochondria there is mitochondria DNA :)
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01:39:30 <mertyildiran> *mitochondrial DNA
01:40:56 <imode> so your original question wasn't really a question. you just had an idea in mind and wanted to expound on it.
01:41:47 <mertyildiran> imode: no I'm just investigating the frontier.
01:42:05 <imode> yeah. sure.
01:42:15 <imode> have fun with uh.. whatever your intent is.
01:43:21 <mertyildiran> imode: I'm ultimately looking for the self-replication in the lowest level possible (and its usefulness).
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02:06:42 <doesthiswork> I'm arguing with someone about language. He wants an example of where A is true B is true and A "and" B is false
02:08:45 <imode> uh.. as in, "A&B" behaves like "!(A&B)"?
02:09:57 <boily> “if (A) { if (B) { /* something */ } }” is isomorphic to “if (A && B) { /* something */ }”.
02:10:10 <shachaf> Isomorphic?
02:10:10 <boily> you *could* express something like you said, but it wouldn't be logically sound.
02:10:22 <boily> well. some word to that effect.
02:10:37 <boily> up to isomorphism, I guess >_>'...
02:13:41 <shachaf> What isomorphism?
02:16:42 * boily hmms.
02:17:54 <Sgeo> If I have a file with QuickTime movies in it, and I try to pull out one movie, and it's just sound and half the sound is coherent and half is static, where did I screw up?
02:17:55 <boily> is it always the case that “if (A) { /* asdf */ } if (B) { /* asdf */ }” is the same as “if (A && B) { /* asdf asdf */ }”?
02:18:05 <Sgeo> Like, how do I not get either pure static or the coherent thing I'm looking for?
02:18:09 <Sgeo> But... half?
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02:22:39 <Sgeo> Holy crap I got something to work
02:24:41 <imode> gotta love that moment.
02:29:40 <Sgeo> Not sure how to expand on this
02:29:53 <Sgeo> I replaced everything before the first mdat with a huge skip atom
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02:32:23 <Sgeo> Well, I now know how to point this 300MB file to various things within it
02:32:40 <Sgeo> I suppose I could do some sort of "change file + run conversion tool" thing
02:32:56 <aaronduino> Hello
02:33:00 <Sgeo> Hi aaronduino
02:33:29 <aaronduino> I just added a language to the wiki (AsciiDots)? Anything else I should do?
02:33:39 <aaronduino> (categorical stuff, etc)
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02:37:45 <aaronduino> Sgeo, do you go on ppcg?
02:38:26 <Sgeo> no
02:38:30 <aaronduino> k
02:39:39 <aaronduino> Have a favorite esolang?
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06:46:01 <int-e> what's this, it's warmer in Göteburg than in Innsbruck :P
06:46:11 <int-e> @metar esgg
06:46:12 <lambdabot> ESGG 110520Z 19006KT 9999 VCFG SCT011 13/12 Q1016
06:46:13 <int-e> @metar lowi
06:46:14 <lambdabot> LOWI 110520Z VRB01KT 9999 -SHRA FEW005 SCT016 FEW050CB BKN055 12/11 Q1016 TEMPO SHRA
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08:42:54 <imode> who else is up at this ungodly hour.
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14:13:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Jordan]] N https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=52695 * Jordan * (+68) Created page with "My SE account: https://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/72169/jordan"
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17:20:24 <zzo38> Now I have posted a corrected version of MIXPC, and now there is also some new features, and includes an assembler.
17:20:30 <zzo38> (The assembler is a separate program)
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17:25:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MIX (Knuth)]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52696&oldid=52648 * Zzo38 * (+206)
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18:48:42 <zzo38> Also is including one example program which is the guess number game. It uses the random number extension and music extension of MIXPC.
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20:26:14 * oerjan has an obvious guess who vanamonde is thinking of in today's girl genius.
20:30:57 <fizzie> There's a character called that in an Arthur C. Clarke novel, The City and the Stars.
20:31:05 <fizzie> (I haven't read the comic in years now.)
20:31:36 <oerjan> yeah the foglios tend to shout out a bit...
20:32:11 <oerjan> also, *gasp*
20:32:29 <shachaf> `5 w
20:32:34 <HackEgo> 1/2:monads//Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras. \ wat//ኢትዮጵያ ውስጥ የሚሰራ የምግብ አይነት ሲሆን፣ የሚሰራውም ከጤፍ ነው። \ programmer's googol//A programmer's googol is equal to 10^100, or 110 \ help//Help is on the way. We don't know where the way is, though. You might try `help inste
20:32:36 <shachaf> `n
20:32:36 <HackEgo> 2/2:ad. \ lystrosaur//The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic.
20:32:42 <Taneb> oerjan, I tend to miss the obvious, what's your guess?
20:33:09 <oerjan> a certain gentleman adventurer.
20:33:20 <Taneb> Oh no!
20:33:25 <oerjan> indeed
20:33:36 <shachaf> Oh no!
20:34:40 <oerjan> he does fit perfectly, also he's in half the other side stories...
20:34:51 <zzo38> Does a gold penny have the same mass as a silver penny?
20:35:23 <oerjan> zzo38: i suspect that both may have varied over time.
20:36:54 <oerjan> hm wait
20:37:12 <oerjan> aren't they too small to be gold or silver? but that may have varied too...
20:38:26 <oerjan> "The gold penny was a medieval English coin with a value of twenty pence."
20:39:13 <zzo38> Bob has 140 pounds worth of money. I am assuming the mass is the same, so that if it is all gold coins then it will weigh 7 pounds.
20:39:47 <oerjan> "Until the reign of King Henry III of England (1216–1272), any need in England for coins worth more than one penny, at the time a silver coin, was met by the use of Byzantine or Arabic gold and silver coins which circulated among merchants and traders."
20:48:21 <zzo38> OK, but still do you know? This is in a GURPS game I play in, the GM said one NPC has 140 pounds worth of money, but apparently in gold (or maybe I misunderstood him), so I assume that the total weight of the money is 7 pounds, and can notify him about it, but for simplicity we could assume the coins have the same weight anyways, even if it isn't historically accurate (if GM agrees), but still I am curious to know if it actually is or not.
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20:55:35 <oerjan> i've always assumed gold to be more worth than silver per weight.
20:56:11 <oerjan> but maybe it's just denser...
20:56:35 <oerjan> i don't really know, anyway.
20:57:16 <oerjan> also, _reliably_ minted money can be more worth than its base material.
20:58:14 <shachaf> This website prices gold at $41.59/g and silver at $0.55/g
20:58:19 <shachaf> p. close
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20:58:37 <oerjan> p. not at all...
20:58:53 <oerjan> did you miss a digit
20:59:04 <shachaf> No, it's two orders of magnitude difference.
20:59:17 <oerjan> ah
20:59:41 <oerjan> who knows if that was the case in medieval times, though...
20:59:48 <fizzie> Does it have a price for mithril?
21:00:05 <fizzie> (Also which marriage anniversary year is that?)
21:00:32 <oerjan> eleventy, obviously.
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21:02:02 <oerjan> hm or should it be eleventy-one
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21:04:53 <shachaf> copumpkin: Do you like Matt Levine?
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21:13:09 <Xav_> Hello
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21:44:54 <wob_jonas> "<mertyildiran> also what is the self-replication example in the lowest possible? in Assembly for example." => an example is probably those very short viruses for early DOS systems that stayed in memory and copied themselves into the disk file of any com or exe program you ran
21:46:34 <Hoolootwo> well, there's the degenerate case, but that's boring
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21:52:01 <wob_jonas> `? monad
21:52:02 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
21:52:07 <wob_jonas> `? monads
21:52:08 <HackEgo> Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
21:56:07 <wob_jonas> "<oerjan> i've always assumed gold to be more worth than silver per weight." => definitely worth much more than silver.
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22:02:01 <wob_jonas> gold is also more amazing and rarer on Earth than silver
22:03:15 <oerjan> <imode> who else is up at this ungodly hour. <-- not me hth
22:04:05 <shachaf> @time oerjan
22:04:06 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Aug 11 23:04:05 2017
22:04:26 <oerjan> shachaf: not the same hour hth
22:04:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52697&oldid=45237 * Xav737 * (+1472) Add a suggestion for a file structure
22:04:39 <shachaf> oerjan: are you saying this hour is godly?
22:04:47 <oerjan> certainly not.
22:06:36 <oerjan> apparently few others were, as now i've finished the logs.
22:06:56 <shachaf> oerjan hungers for logs
22:08:27 <oerjan> What rolls down stairs / Alone or in pairs, / And over your neighbor's dog?
22:08:39 <Taneb> oerjan, how is your neighbour's dog
22:08:42 <wob_jonas> "<shachaf> No, it's two orders of magnitude difference." => wait, really? I thought the difference was somewhat less than that. wow.
22:08:58 <shachaf> wob_jonas: Going by the prices I quoted above.
22:09:06 <wob_jonas> yeah, I understadn
22:10:02 <wob_jonas> and gold is still cheaper than any of its cousins (iridium, platium, osmium, rhenium, tungsten) right?
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22:10:10 <oerjan> Taneb: i'm not sure they currently have one, so i guess it's silent if it exists.
22:10:41 <oerjan> actually there have been a couple bad days.
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22:12:23 <Taneb> An intermittent dog
22:12:30 <shachaf> `cat bin/dog
22:12:31 <HackEgo> cat: bin/dog: No such file or directory
22:12:33 <oerjan> wait tungsten is a precious metal?
22:12:34 <shachaf> Huh.
22:13:21 <wob_jonas> oerjan: "precious metal" is defined differently by any two people. I consider it precious because it has the highest melting point among all metals, higher than even rhenium
22:13:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AsciiDots]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52698&oldid=52693 * IanO * (+142) /* External Resources */
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22:15:58 <shachaf> I consider all metals precious, except zinc.
22:16:38 <wob_jonas> shachaf: huh? don't you mean all metals except iron and maybe cobalt? because that would be sort of a sensible definition
22:16:49 <shachaf> No, iron is precious.
22:16:59 <wob_jonas> there's way more iron on Earth than ANYTHING ELSE, by mass
22:17:01 <Hoolootwo> I don't think that was meant to be a sensible definition
22:17:13 <shachaf> Who said anything about the Earth?
22:17:21 <wob_jonas> so every other metal is rare compared to iron
22:17:32 <oerjan> aluminum is extremely precious, just ask louis napoleon
22:17:34 <shachaf> Isn't there more aluminium than iron?
22:17:55 <oerjan> he did say by mass.
22:18:11 <shachaf> By mass.
22:18:51 <wob_jonas> shachaf: the earth is basically a big ball of iron, with some dirt layer on the surface. the surface may have more aluminum atoms (not in atomic form) than iron, but if you go deeper (which we can't really do because the pressure kills us) it's all iron (and maybe some cobalt)
22:18:55 <Hoolootwo> well, how about all the metallic hydrogen (theoretically) in jupiter?
22:19:11 <oerjan> `? precious
22:19:12 <HackEgo> precious? That doesn't ring a bell. ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:19:20 <shachaf> Oh, this page is about the crust.
22:19:25 <oerjan> hm already has a ring pun
22:19:39 <wob_jonas> shachaf: and there's almost no metalic aluminum in the ground, practically all of it is refined by men
22:19:56 <wob_jonas> which is not surprising because it's that sort of junk semimetal, it doesn't like remaining in metalic form much
22:20:01 <shachaf> Which men?
22:20:08 <wob_jonas> mankind in general
22:20:25 <wob_jonas> and mostly in the last few hundred years
22:20:37 <wob_jonas> before that people didn't know a cheap way to refine it
22:21:34 <shachaf> Tungsten is also not a precious metal.
22:21:43 <shachaf> which is a shame because it could have been tg
22:21:57 <wob_jonas> huh?
22:22:34 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm afraid stephen got to select its abbreviation hth
22:22:54 <oerjan> `? tungsten
22:22:55 <HackEgo> tungsten? ¯\(°​_o)/¯
22:22:59 <oerjan> `? wolfram
22:23:00 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
22:23:28 <shachaf> what does tungsten have to do with cellular automata?
22:23:48 <wob_jonas> oerjan: it's more like that back when they decided the abbreviations, English wasn't yet the most frequent language used in science, so they use german and latin and french and russian and swedish and whatever names instead.
22:24:17 <shachaf> Well, "tungsten" is a Swedish name.
22:24:22 <shachaf> So they should've used it.
22:24:33 <oerjan> except the swedes don't.
22:24:47 <shachaf> Right, they donated that word to English.
22:25:30 <oerjan> apparently tungsten _is_ used in jewelry.
22:26:37 <Taneb> tonguesten
22:28:05 <oerjan> "Tungsten is unique amongst the elements in that it has been the subject of patent proceedings. In 1928, a US court rejected General Electric's attempt to patent it, overturning U.S. Patent 1,082,933 granted in 1913 to William D. Coolidge."
22:28:43 <oerjan> Taneb: that's only used for piercings hth
22:32:01 <Taneb> Understandable
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22:33:02 <wob_jonas> oerjan: that sounds strange. I mean, patent trolls have tried to patent basically anything, whether it makes sense or not
22:33:12 <wob_jonas> how come it's the only element where they did that?
22:33:48 <aaronduino> hello
22:33:56 <Hoolootwo> well, after the first one, there's a precedent set
22:34:07 <Hoolootwo> and I bet GE had some role in its discovery
22:34:28 <Taneb> Hi, aaronduino
22:34:33 <Hoolootwo> welp, nope
22:34:34 <aaronduino> hi, Tabeb
22:34:38 <aaronduino> *Taneb
22:35:18 <aaronduino> any people here who do ppcg?
22:35:25 <oerjan> MAYBE
22:35:36 <wob_jonas> aaronduino: some people used to at least
22:35:40 <Hoolootwo> sometimes I read it
22:35:45 <Hoolootwo> never submitted anything
22:35:52 <aaronduino> yeah.
22:36:20 <aaronduino> I was thinking of starting, but was wondering how stdin works if your esolang of choice only accepts numbers through stdin
22:36:37 <oerjan> my last submission was July 30
22:37:01 <Hoolootwo> isn't there a thread about acceptable input types
22:37:17 <aaronduino> hmmm
22:37:29 <oerjan> yes there is
22:37:31 <aaronduino> k
22:37:49 <oerjan> although i'm not sure how it treats something _that_ weird.
22:38:26 <aaronduino> yeah.
22:38:43 <aaronduino> e.g. the ;# challenges
22:38:59 <wob_jonas> aaronduino: you might try to ask such policy questions on their chat.
22:39:11 <shachaf> oerjan: What, like INTERCAL?
22:39:16 <oerjan> you need some reputation before you can chat.
22:39:29 <oerjan> shachaf: INTERCAL has binary I/O, it's just awkward.
22:39:36 <aaronduino> I think I got 101 from coming from stackoverflow
22:39:39 <aaronduino> (101 rep)
22:40:12 <oerjan> oh SO is enough, i don't think the chat cares which SE site you're from
22:40:20 <oerjan> it's a common system.
22:40:25 <aaronduino> yep
22:40:30 <wob_jonas> oerjan: the chat IS partitioned to three parts actually
22:40:37 <oerjan> oh?
22:40:49 <wob_jonas> oerjan: stack overflow chat, stack exchange meta chat, and everything else
22:40:56 * oerjan doesn't follow the chat much, only logged on for specific occasions.
22:40:56 <aaronduino> huh
22:41:11 <wob_jonas> but the reputation you get from stack overflow might still allow you to chat on the general chat
22:41:19 <aaronduino> I think so
22:41:22 <wob_jonas> I don't know that, because I don't care much about stack overflow
22:41:43 <wob_jonas> in any case, chat needs very little rep, so you can get it easily even without that
22:42:15 <wob_jonas> the partitioning is more so that chat moderators are different on the three slices
22:42:25 <aaronduino> that makes sense
22:42:25 <wob_jonas> it's not for excluding people from chatting altogether
22:43:01 <aaronduino> of course
22:43:43 <oerjan> aaronduino: i don't think your language is famous enough to get a wikipedia article yet hth
22:43:57 <aaronduino> ?
22:44:10 <aaronduino> wait a sec
22:44:28 <aaronduino> it has a esolang.org
22:44:30 <aaronduino> page
22:44:40 <aaronduino> (not saying its famous, tho)
22:44:54 <oerjan> someone made a red link to it from wikipedia's esolang page.
22:45:27 <aaronduino> Cool!
22:45:40 <oerjan> i am not entirely sure it's even famous enough for a section there, but i'm generally not involving myself in _that_ question.
22:45:40 <aaronduino> wow
22:46:40 <aaronduino> hmmm. 2602:306:31ab:c4b0:454c:258:f30e:636
22:47:08 <aaronduino> I get it. Thx
22:47:37 <aaronduino> (running on <8 hrs of sleep total for a week right now)
22:48:03 <wob_jonas> yeah, it's still too hot
22:48:16 <aaronduino> haha
22:48:22 <aaronduino> ?
22:48:49 <Hoolootwo> sleeep
22:48:55 <wob_jonas> I still find it hard to sleep because of the aftereffects of the hot weather, even if it's starting to become somewhat less hot now
22:49:21 <aaronduino> ahh
22:49:28 <aaronduino> For me its just TV.
22:49:33 <aaronduino> until 4 am
22:50:48 <aaronduino> oerjan: I just saw that you proved turing-completeness of ///. That really cool!
22:53:02 <wob_jonas> what? string replacement languages like /// were known to be turing complete for very long ago, before the era of esolangs. Knuth actually mentions one of them early in TAOCP even.
22:53:25 <aaronduino> but its still hard to make a specific proof
22:53:33 <wob_jonas> no it's not
22:54:38 <wob_jonas> it's specifically easy to compile turing machines to it
22:54:50 <oerjan> wob_jonas: but were they string replacement languages like thue, or like /// ?
22:55:03 <aaronduino> * aaronduino realized how much of a noob he is
22:55:40 <oerjan> the hard part with /// is that it has no separation between data and program.
22:55:52 <wob_jonas> oerjan: uh... let me check what /// does
22:55:55 <aaronduino> Oh, yeah
22:56:02 <wob_jonas> like thue, I think
22:58:06 <wob_jonas> hmm... in that case /// might be trickier
22:58:55 <oerjan> wob_jonas: you essentially cannot get any true while loop going without quining techniques.
22:59:04 <aaronduino> wow
22:59:09 <oerjan> as far as we know.
22:59:27 <wob_jonas> oerjan: I see
22:59:36 <wob_jonas> I'm sorry then, I was wrong above
22:59:42 <wob_jonas> I was thinking of more like thue
22:59:51 <oerjan> APOLOGY ACCEPTED
23:01:10 <aaronduino> I'm starting to read more about ///; it's crazy
23:04:51 <oerjan> iirc User:Nthern also has made some impressive /// programs.
23:05:55 <aaronduino> cool. what do they do?
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23:06:22 <shachaf> `5
23:06:23 <HackEgo> 1/2:173) <elliott> oerjan: What, can girls aim their penises better? \ 185) <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness <elliott> or ability to run at all <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no \ 32) <ehird> `translatefromto hu en Hogy hogy hogy ami kemeny <HackEgo> How hard is that \ 659) [...] <fizzi
23:06:26 <shachaf> `n
23:06:27 <HackEgo> 2/2:e> So if someone tells you "you're worth your weight in Ethernet", it's likely they think your worth is less than $2k. \ 863) <olsner> shachaf: contrary to common belief, #esoteric is not really "a channel for crazy people", but has (ostensibly) a topic... is beaky from finland?
23:07:13 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Nthern/archive#Thue-to-.2F.2F.2F_translator
23:07:26 <shachaf> i need a Thue-to-Frie translator twh
23:07:51 <aaronduino> impressive
23:08:22 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
23:09:42 <aaronduino> oerjan: I'm thinking of proving asciidots' turing-completeness using bct. Any tips?
23:10:12 <oerjan> well i don't know asciidots
23:10:38 <aaronduino> idk, it
23:10:48 <aaronduino> nvm
23:11:14 <aaronduino> its a functional language with a pointer that holds 2 variables
23:11:25 <aaronduino> idk, any tips at all would help
23:11:52 <aaronduino> (tbh, i don't really know what I'm doing0
23:12:25 <oerjan> the easiest way to prove tc-ness depends a lot on what data structures your language has.
23:12:57 <aaronduino> hmmm
23:13:00 <aaronduino> k
23:13:03 <oerjan> if you have bignum integers, i recommend fractran or the like.
23:13:24 <oerjan> if you have first class functions, i recommend SKI calculus.
23:13:30 <aaronduino> I'll look into those
23:13:35 <aaronduino> esp. fractran
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23:14:05 <aaronduino> wow. fractran is crazy
23:14:18 <shachaf> oerjan: Come on, there were a bunch of great puns you didn't swat me for.
23:14:18 <oerjan> (also the collatz functions, which sometimes fits better to a language than fractran does.)
23:14:21 <shachaf> And now you swat me for this?
23:14:36 <shachaf> I'm disappointed.
23:14:37 <oerjan> shachaf: you probably were too subtle hth
23:17:31 <aaronduino> i've gtg. Too much procrastinating today :)
23:17:35 <aaronduino> :/
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