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00:52:14 <wob_jonas> "<Jafet> anyway, I thought that newbiefuck would be the variant where ] goes back to the nearest [" => this yes. and we've been calling the one where [] is a do-while loop "dofuck" informally, when I was thinking about why it's Turing-complete
00:59:10 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> [...] "CON -0" results in positive zero by mistake" => well, technically vol 1 forgets to say what the unary minus does when it introduces the assembler (it defines precisely what the binary operators do) so that's not really a bug
01:00:30 <zzo38> My own assembler is not quite the same as MIXAL anyways though
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01:01:34 <wob_jonas> zzo38: "and equal sign expressions will make multiple copies of the same expression instead of just one" => they have to make multiple copies. the book doesn't say they're unified, and they shouldn't be, since the program might write them.
01:02:45 <zzo38> O, I suppose you are correct about that, although I intended that you would explicitly use CON if you wanted to write them; otherwise how to know the address when you read them instead?
01:03:43 <wob_jonas> you use a CON line if you want to reference them twice, sure
01:04:03 <wob_jonas> or if you want to place them somewhere other than right before the END location
01:07:03 <wob_jonas> "<zzo38> How to compute the position of the International Space Station?" => that's hard because it has powered thrusters actively changing its orbit all the time, and is also in thin atmosphere so it's getting breaked
01:07:05 <zzo38> I am not sure why a program would want to write them anyways
01:08:38 <zzo38> Especially if you are only referencing it once, why will you write them? I don't see why a program should ever write to them whether they are unified or not.
01:09:47 <zzo38> Did you see the Deadfish implementation in MIX? (If you have the book, and if you want to do, you can write in actual MIXAL perhaps, because the code I posted is my own assembler instead)
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02:13:55 <wob_jonas> zzo38: http://heavens-above.com/orbit.aspx?satid=25544 (linked from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Space_Station ) shows the current position of the ISS
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03:02:50 <zzo38> I saw that, but how to predict it?
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03:05:33 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like tensors?
03:11:11 <zzo38> I suppose so, kind of
03:11:52 <shachaf> Do you like monoidal categories?
03:13:49 <zzo38> Same, I think, yes it can have some uses
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05:03:33 <zzo38> Some webpages have a stylesheet named "antiClickJack" which hides everything. What is that?
05:14:19 <shachaf> zzo38: You can read about clickjacking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clickjacking
05:15:05 <shachaf> The idea is that you load someone's web page or other UI that responds to certain clicks in certain ways.
05:15:24 <shachaf> Then you put an overlay on top of it that makes it look like the click would do something else in your own UI.
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05:27:30 <zzo38> I still think there are better ways to avoid such thing, such as by ignoring any CSS rules that affect an iframe other than positioning rules, so alpha transparency cannot be set, the border style cannot be altered, etc; and furthermore, if anything overlays an iframe, it makes that part of the iframe effectively disappear (so it can't be seen through alpha transparency) and cannot receive events. The iframe cannot receive keyboard events either un
05:28:08 <zzo38> A user setting to disable custom cursors may also be helpful.
05:28:15 <zzo38> As well as other things I did not mention.
05:29:39 <zzo38> Such as including the user settings which can affect what can load what.
05:37:01 <zzo38> But one way to avoid Facebook "like" jacking is if you do not have a Facebook account, I suppose; or does it still do even in that case?
05:53:33 <zzo38> The ALT+ENTER in Firefox to open entered address in a new tab is especially useful when "relative location bar" is in use; without that extension, this ALT+ENTER is less useful.
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12:20:35 <HackEgo> 1/2:mdude//MDude is just a dude, with an M's courage. \ misle//misle v. tr. "I was misled about morphology." \ method//A method is a tweaked out mothod. \ guillible//A guillible person is someone who can be fooled with a Scheme script. \ northumberland//Northumberland may be today a sparsely populated country... but SOON! THE NORTHUMBRAINS SHALL RI
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15:24:37 <wob_jonas> Oh wow! amazon.com is great! I've never used it before
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15:26:07 <wob_jonas> Despite how US-centric it is, it actually allows me to choose to pay from credit card in USD; as opposed to ebay who insists on charging everything in HUF with their high currency conversion rates, just because I live in Hungary.
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15:28:58 <wob_jonas> Do the other amazons (amazon.co.uk, amazon.de etc) do this properly too?
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15:31:36 <wob_jonas> They also warn you not to put non-ascii characters in your shipping address in advance, which I think is nicer than silently printing garbage on the envelope.
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16:52:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52744&oldid=30287 * Rdococ * (+196) /* May I take this name for an esolang? */ new section
16:53:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Mindscrew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52745&oldid=52744 * Rdococ * (+84)
16:53:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52746&oldid=52745 * Rdococ * (-2) accidentally invoked \n- code syntax
16:58:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52747&oldid=52746 * Rdococ * (+304) meh, might as well do it anyway
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17:16:29 <HackEgo> olist 1091: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
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19:12:47 <rdococ> At the moment, Mindscrew is a fast redirect to Brainfuck. I was wondering if I could use the name for my own esolang, which would add first-class functions and stuff.
19:14:28 <rdococ> Meh - I'll publish the article anyway, and see what people think. It's an easy move and revert if it doesn't work out for some reason.
19:16:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52748&oldid=30285 * Rdococ * (+6326) Mindscrew is a high-level extension of Brainfuck - at the moment, it adds first-class subroutines, first-class continuations, and non-first-class coroutines (though you could probably simulate them with subroutines and continuations).
19:17:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52749&oldid=52748 * Rdococ * (-1) Fixed a minor formatting bug in the table header.
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19:20:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52750&oldid=52749 * Rdococ * (-21) Fixed a minor issue in the examples.
19:22:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52751&oldid=52750 * Rdococ * (+1) Fixed /another/ minor issue.
19:25:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52752&oldid=52737 * Rdococ * (+110) /* My hopefully better esoteric languages (12017 HE - ∞+10000 HE) */
19:25:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52753&oldid=52752 * Rdococ * (+3)
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19:34:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52754&oldid=52753 * Rdococ * (+1009)
19:38:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck extensions]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52755&oldid=45312 * Rdococ * (+15) Added Mindscrew to the "Subroutines, functions, macros" entry.
19:38:45 <Taneb> My Neural Net program is pretty much ready for me to try to actually build a neural net
19:39:36 <rdococ> Build a neural net that builds neural nets.
19:40:01 <Taneb> Sounds like effort
19:40:13 <shachaf> Are you using actual neurons?
19:40:36 <shachaf> imo then why call it a "neural net" twh
19:40:39 <imode> not in the budget.
19:41:00 <Taneb> shachaf, they try to simulate actual neurons
19:41:44 <imode> all about that activation function booiiii.
19:42:10 <shachaf> My claim is that there's no resemblance.
19:42:30 <imode> would you like to back up that claim with evidence?
19:42:54 <imode> ..for an extra .99c?
19:43:11 <shachaf> Well, I don't know what Taneb is making yet.
19:43:30 <shachaf> It's only a weak claim right now.
19:43:32 <Taneb> shachaf, a terrible imitation is still an imitation
19:43:55 <shachaf> But then anything can be called a neuron.
19:43:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52756&oldid=52751 * Rdococ * (+229)
19:44:08 <imode> it's not about what Taneb is making, you're claiming neural nets show no resemblance to actual nets of actual neurons.
19:44:22 <imode> I'd like to see some evidence.
19:44:31 <shachaf> You mean "artificial neural networks"?
19:44:38 <zzo38> rdococ: My own opinion at least is that that redirect is worthless, so it should be OK to use the name by yourself. If it is found that it isn't so worthless and that you want it anyways, then to add the "see also"/"maybe you meant" kind of stuff at the top
19:44:42 <imode> yup. that's a good search term.
19:44:49 <shachaf> Well, I see no resemblance. How's that?
19:45:02 <Taneb> I don't really know enough about brains to comment
19:45:08 <imode> and can you give us some reasons.. why?
19:45:19 <rdococ> zzo38: I've already added that to it.
19:45:25 <shachaf> I think it's up to the people using ridiculous names like "neural" to give evidence.
19:45:40 <imode> no, it's up to you to say why you don't like it. :P
19:45:51 <imode> claims typically require justification.
19:46:02 <imode> how minimal that might be.
19:46:04 <rdococ> I was thinking of removing the continuations and coroutines, though, because they just feel like they're unnecessary bunk in a brainfuck derivative.
19:46:13 <shachaf> I don't like it because I see no resemblance.
19:46:21 <imode> and you see no resemblance because you don't like it?
19:46:23 <shachaf> To borrow a name and make an analogy like that, you need evidence.
19:46:29 <Taneb> I think it doesn't matter whether they are similar to biological neural nets or not because it's an established name now
19:46:31 <imode> do you even know what they are?
19:46:44 <imode> ANNs. do you kno whow they work
19:47:04 <imode> *know how they work. have you read why they're called that?
19:47:13 <shachaf> They represent data as a vector in R^n
19:47:21 <imode> have you at least done the required skimming as to why the model was labeled that? :P
19:47:31 <shachaf> They repeatedly apply linear maps followed by some nonlinear transformation.
19:47:38 <shachaf> Sometimes they do other things.
19:48:05 <imode> maybe read some more on the topic. there's a clear resemblance, albeit one that's being seen from a moving car.
19:48:06 <Taneb> shachaf, I think it's the training of them that's the interesting bit
19:48:07 <shachaf> Yes, I've done some skimming. A long time ago there was slightly more resemblance, for example when people used perceptrons with discrete output.
19:48:26 <imode> perceptrons didn't change, our activation functions became smoother, much like actual neurons
19:48:43 <shachaf> Taneb: There's certainly no evidence that I know of that real neurons are "trained" using backpropagation or gradient descent, which are the popular tactics for ANNs.
19:49:00 <shachaf> Are actual neurons smooth?
19:49:08 <imode> yes, their activations are.
19:49:23 <shachaf> You say neuron firing is not discrete?
19:49:33 <Taneb> shachaf, I still think backpropogation is interesting even if it isn't accurate to biology
19:50:07 <imode> though I totally agree with you that ANNs are as good a model for real neurons as legos are for large-scale skyscraper construction, there's some resemblance.
19:50:07 <shachaf> I think as people make more progress with ANNs they become further and further from biology, because the biological inspiration was never very important in the first place.
19:50:39 <imode> these days it's pretty twisted. there's a relevant xkcd for this.
19:50:55 <imode> https://www.xkcd.com/1838/
19:51:45 <shachaf> People have had linear algebra for a long time.
19:51:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52757&oldid=52756 * Rdococ * (-222) Added a return instruction, and improved the example formatting.
19:52:12 <imode> just about as long as calculus, in fact!
19:53:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52758&oldid=52757 * Rdococ * (+89) /* Examples */ Fixed the if conditional example.
20:01:04 <rdococ> Ugh, my own article screws my mind.
20:16:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52759&oldid=52758 * Rdococ * (+105)
20:29:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Works in progress]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52760&oldid=51496 * HereToAnnoy * (+13)
20:33:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52761&oldid=52759 * Rdococ * (-1032) Removed continuations.
20:46:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52762&oldid=52761 * Rdococ * (+946) Added SWAP register and modified + and - instructions for moving subroutines around in the cell tape.
20:49:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52763&oldid=52762 * Rdococ * (+54) Added categories: "Brainfuck derivatives", and "2017".
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20:51:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52764&oldid=52754 * Rdococ * (+127)
20:52:46 <rdococ> It strikes me as odd that out of all of my esolangs, I (as of now) rate my BF derivative the highest. Then again, I could just be that bad. (Then again, "Rule" is pretty cool, and so is "HI9+".)
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21:09:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52765&oldid=52763 * Rdococ * (+75) Added more categories.
21:13:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindscrew]] M https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52766&oldid=52765 * Rdococ * (+6) Added some bold to the beginning.
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21:43:56 <myname> https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerDadJokes/comments/6tmqm3/my_app_is_crashing_when_the_user_has_a_bad_cell m(
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22:39:02 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daichi_Fukushima
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22:41:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52767&oldid=52704 * Kwikrick * (+15)
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23:36:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52768&oldid=52742 * LyricLy * (-774)
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23:41:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ly]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52769&oldid=52768 * LyricLy * (+181)
23:47:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52770&oldid=52743 * HereToAnnoy * (+4) /* External links */
23:47:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52771&oldid=52770 * HereToAnnoy * (+2) /* File type */
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23:55:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Arrows]] https://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=52772&oldid=52771 * HereToAnnoy * (-12)